Throwing speed mechanics question for you knowledgable folks.

[Trasak]

I am looking at trying to make a compitent if not competitive master thrower build and I was wondering how the throw speed mechanics currently work.

Things that effect throwing speed:
Quick Draw
Rapid Fire
Enhancement bonus to ranged speed I.E. Haste
Competance bonus to ranged speed I.E. Abbot quiver and AA ToD set
Shiradi 60% Throw speed buff

Things that add to number of thrown attacks:
Shuriken Expertice
10k Stars

Things that add to thrown damage.
Strength, or Int with Insightful damage
Standard enhancement bonus /weapon effects
Class based feats and enhancements
Inspire Courage w/tailwind
Rune Arms, including tovens hammer lit 2 effect
NOT Arti prestige +2 enhancement
Shiradi ranged procs
Reign *not tested*

So my main question is how do the thrown attack speed buffs stack and what are the effective haste values of quick draw and Rapid fire. Say they are 10% each and a shuriken has a base attack speed of 2 seconds how does it work?

2sec * 0.9 *0.9 *0.85 *0.9*0.4 for 0.495 seconds
or
2 sec * (100/(100+10+10+15+10+60)) for 0.975 seconds
or
2 sec *100/110*100/110*100/115*100/110*100/160 for 0.81

Soooo many assumptions and not enough knowledge

[Trasak]

to update my own post I ran a few tests

time to throw 60 returning weapons with no feats or equipment: 71 seconds
time to throw 60 returning weapons with quickdraw(10%) and rapid fire(15%): 63 seconds
time to throw 60 returning weapons with above and centered(10%): 59.812323231
time to throw 60 returning chickens with above and 10% alacrity: 57.5ish
time to thr0w 6o returning weapons with above and 10% windstance: 54.400000
time to throw 30 returning weapons with above and haste pot(22%): 25.7-> 51.4
time to throw 30 returning weapons with above minus 10% alacrity: 25.7 ->51.4

What this tells me is that haste is calculated multiplicative by source type. The challenge though is that it is not directly the listed number but rather half the listed number. The effective multiplier for each multiplicative source of haste is 100%/(100%+haste%/2). That makes haste 100/111 = 0.909. Adjust it to 1/1.11 for ease of calculation and you get, from top down skipping alacrity, 1/1.05/1.075/1.05/1.05/1.11= 0.724

71*0.724 = 51.39 which is a bit spot on

From this we guess that as long as shiradi thrown haste is its own source it will be 0.724/1.3= 0.557
Which would be 60 Shuriken in 39.55 or 1 shuriken every 0.65 seconds which is pretty darn fast when you are fishing for static percent procs.

If QD is 10% and RF is 15% then my model is spot on.

[Therrias]

A Shuriken Expertise build should be viable with Shiradi; however, testers have never been able to get shuriken expertise to proc anywhere near its advertised rate.

[wax_on_wax_off]

There's a Shuriken build in my sig that should work okay. Still have to melee 50% of the time in most situations though.

[Brennie]

You missed a few sources of speed bonus, including BaB (Effectively your base speed), Druid Fatal Harrier enhancement (doesn't stack with haste/alacrity), the Ranger Capstone (stacks with everything), and Fatesinger's Echos of the Ancestors: Primal/Shiradi (should stack with everything i believe).

You missed several means of increasing thrown damage, but there are frankly so many that it woudl be difficult to list them all. The most notable, though, are probably drow bonus to shurikens and halfling bonus to all thrown weapons via enhancements.



time to throw 60 returning weapons with above and centered(10%): 59.812323231
time to throw 60 returning chickens with above and 10% alacrity: 57.5ish
time to thr0w 6o returning weapons with above and 10% windstance: 54.400000
time to throw 30 returning weapons with above and haste pot(22%): 25.7-> 51.4
time to throw 30 returning weapons with above minus 10% alacrity: 25.7 ->51.4


I'm curious about the numbers here for two reasons. 1) Why/how are yuo throwing chickens (and what is their crit profile?), and 2) As far as I know, Wind Stance shouldn't stack with Alacrity items or haste, but your testing seems to indicate that it does. If you're so inclined, would you be willing to do a few more tests with wind stance (10%), an alacrity item (10%), neither, and both (assuming you do not have Shuriken Expertise, as the randomness from that would skew results)?

I'm beginning to think that between shiradi procs, the seemingly quite fast attack speed possible through shiradi/10k stars/shuriken expertise (and perhaps a stacking wind stance?), and a good spelltouched shuriken, and you could potentially make a rather viable thrower build.

[Therrias]

the Ranger Capstone (stacks with everything)

Last time I checked, the ranger capstone was a competence bonus.

[Brennie]

Last time I checked, the ranger capstone was a competence bonus.

its description claims it as such, but it seemingly stacks with everything, making its description pretty well wrong. Evidence of that in this very thorough testing thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=276658&page=2). Here's the summary version:


Short version (capstone and rapid shot were used for all tests)...

93s - no special gear
89s - quiver
89s - armor
89s - quiver + armor
89s - AA set
85s - AA set + quiver
85s - AA set + armor
85s - AA set + quiver + armor

86s - haste + no special gear
86s - haste + quiver
86s - haste + armor
86s - haste + quiver + armor
83s - haste + AA set
83s - haste + AA set + quiver
83s - haste + AA set + armor
83s - haste + AA set + quiver + armor

Since the ranger capstone is 25% "competence" bonus, anything less than 25% competence bonus should, theoretically, have absolutely no impact on the results of this test. However, you can see that the AA set (also a competence bonus) does, infact, cause a higher rate of fire.

Side note: Op, abbot quiver gives Ranged Alacrity, which is an enhancement bonus that shouldn't stack with haste.

[Trasak]

You missed a few sources of speed bonus, including BaB (Effectively your base speed), Druid Fatal Harrier enhancement (doesn't stack with haste/alacrity), the Ranger Capstone (stacks with everything), and Fatesinger's Echos of the Ancestors: Primal/Shiradi (should stack with everything i believe).

You missed several means of increasing thrown damage, but there are frankly so many that it woudl be difficult to list them all. The most notable, though, are probably drow bonus to shurikens and halfling bonus to all thrown weapons via enhancements.



I'm curious about the numbers here for two reasons. 1) Why/how are yuo throwing chickens (and what is their crit profile?), and 2) As far as I know, Wind Stance shouldn't stack with Alacrity items or haste, but your testing seems to indicate that it does. If you're so inclined, would you be willing to do a few more tests with wind stance (10%), an alacrity item (10%), neither, and both (assuming you do not have Shuriken Expertise, as the randomness from that would skew results)?

I'm beginning to think that between shiradi procs, the seemingly quite fast attack speed possible through shiradi/10k stars/shuriken expertise (and perhaps a stacking wind stance?), and a good spelltouched shuriken, and you could potentially make a rather viable thrower build.


I only included in my initial post what I thought I could acquire for my Bard/Arti Shiradi build with Reign and Tailwind already a tier 4 was going to be too much for a small gain. As far as the damage goes yah just skipped a bunch because I viewed the actual weapon damage to be a smallish percentage of the over all so tweaking it out seemed a waste. Im going to be torn between the bard and monk builds if shiradi and haste stack with centered and wind stance, that is a lot of haste to trade for fascinate, buffs and evasion-less trap skills and max umd. Tailwind 14 bard warchanter inspire courage is going to be +7 to attack and +8 all damage +14 ranged.

All my testing was done counting arm animations and not damage strikes as you said counting damage strikes is a pain without a time stamp in the damage log, what I wouldn't give for a time stamp in the log. Wind stance and Alacrity is the 54.4 seconds one I did do each without the other, both at the 57.5 mark which is what also helped me confirm that the centered bonus was as uncentered with alacrity was 60 as was centered without. I was also surprised by wind stance stacking as I believed it was enhancement.

[Trasak]

Side note: Op, abbot quiver gives Ranged Alacrity, which is an enhancement bonus that shouldn't stack with haste.

Thanks didn't want to run it anyway.

[cdbd3rd]

...
time to throw 60 returning chickens with above and 10% alacrity: 57.5ish
....


I'm with Brennie on this - WHERE are our throwing chickens?!?

They don't even have to be returners - I'd buy em by the stack, especially if they squawk in flight! :D

[Brennie]

I only included in my initial post what I thought I could acquire for my Bard/Arti Shiradi build with Reign and Tailwind already a tier 4 was going to be too much for a small gain. As far as the damage goes yah just skipped a bunch because I viewed the actual weapon damage to be a smallish percentage of the over all so tweaking it out seemed a waste. Im going to be torn between the bard and monk builds if shiradi and haste stack with centered and wind stance, that is a lot of haste to trade for fascinate, buffs and evasion-less trap skills and max umd. Tailwind 14 bard warchanter inspire courage is going to be +7 to attack and +8 all damage +14 ranged.

All my testing was done counting arm animations and not damage strikes as you said counting damage strikes is a pain without a time stamp in the damage log, what I wouldn't give for a time stamp in the log. Wind stance and Alacrity is the 54.4 seconds one I did do each without the other, both at the 57.5 mark which is what also helped me confirm that the centered bonus was as uncentered with alacrity was 60 as was centered without. I was also surprised by wind stance stacking as I believed it was enhancement.

I would consider 6 monk practically necessary for a thrower build. 10k stars would be far too much of a boon to ignore, in my opinion. Although it woudl probably mean decent investment into wisdom if you want to maximize its capability... but still, it will increase your ranged damage output HUGELY.

As for testing, one way to do it is to buy a stack of 100 cheap-o shuriken, get whatever gear/buffs in place, and start a timer as soon as your start throwing, and stop when your character ceases animating. I suspect that a monk build could toss a kama in the offhand to negate shuriken expertise if necessary, while keeping centered.

[Nandos]

I did not see you mentioning point blank shot, combat archery or precise shot. Do these 3 feats not work with thrown weapons?

[wax_on_wax_off]

I did not see you mentioning point blank shot, combat archery or precise shot. Do these 3 feats not work with thrown weapons?

They don't affect attack speed. Even if CA worked I'd still skip it for Shurikens, that's a pretty small damage increase.

[Trasak]

As for testing, one way to do it is to buy a stack of 100 cheap-o shuriken, get whatever gear/buffs in place, and start a timer as soon as your start throwing, and stop when your character ceases animating. I suspect that a monk build could toss a kama in the offhand to negate shuriken expertise if necessary, while keeping centered.

On a side note having a kama in your offhand does not negate shuriken expertise, I have been running with a +6 Seeker 10% Alacrity crafted Kama in my offhand for almost 10 levels and I get double procs just fine.

I think I will test shuriken expertise tonight though for output. I am not sure if shuriken expertice would eat a second non returning shuriken or throw a phantom one. If it does use up a shuriken I will just use a returning one and count 100 animations then dump the combat log and count the number of attacks, hit or miss, and do that several times to see if it is close to right. I would not be surprised if it is actually dex-8 or 10 or even just dex mod.

Secondly it would be great if some yellow name could tell us what haste sources should be stacking as there are alot of non named bonuses.