The Overpowered Gimpiness of them All

[GeoBob]

Ever since u14 and EDs came out, PvP has been fun and not fun for different people. Epic Destinies can make the tables turn in the favor of melees in PvP, if they are the only ones using them. Sadly they do not and all casters seem to do now (at least on Thelanis) is spam all of their ED stuff and will pretty much own the entire PvP w.out much difficulty.

I Believe that Public PvP should have things like EDs and the such turned OFF in placed like the Wayward Lobster, and the Phoenix Tavern. However, when you join private PvP matches they should be enabled and usable. Also, i think that Turbine should put a little more effort into improving the PvP system, and start putting more effort into the system that other games use. Where you talk to the NPC, and they hook you up with a group of people similar to your class. DDO has this system, but nobody uses it. Just keep this stuff in mind Turbine, might attract more players if there was a better PvP system. :D

[Jaid314]

or alternately, you can go to any of the billion other MMOs that focus on PvP. there's tons of games that focus on the PvP aspect, and repeatedly buff or nerf things based on how effective they are in that area. PvP in DDO is something you do just because you feel like it. balancing for PvP when the game has an extremely large fan base that plays it for the PvE may or may not attract more people (i doubt it... as i said, there's no shortage of PvP-focused MMOs in the market, and turbine would be competing with all of them), but it will almost certainly alienate their existing fan base.

given a choice between driving away the majority of the customers that they currently have by trying to cater to a new group of customers that may or may not ever show up, or just sticking with what they know already works and at least keeps their current fans paying (happy would be an overstatement :P ), well... frankly, i think they'd be crazy to choose to completely change their target demographic after spending 6 years developing everything the way they have.

[Saravis]

So you want to remove the best that a class can have? If you keep going with that line of thinking, you'll be fighting as level 1s in tutorial gear.

Anyway PvP is fine the way it is, it exists and that's all it needs.

[Ilindith]

The usual "people are killing me I don't like this" stuff eh.

And no, they should never, ever put time on the PVP system because this is not a PVP game.

[barberous]

And no, they should never, ever put time on the PVP system because this is not a PVP game.

this is exactly right,well said

[Machination]

this



or alternately, you can go to any of the billion other MMOs that focus on PvP. there's tons of games that focus on the PvP aspect, and repeatedly buff or nerf things based on how effective they are in that area. PvP in DDO is something you do just because you feel like it. balancing for PvP when the game has an extremely large fan base that plays it for the PvE may or may not attract more people (i doubt it... as i said, there's no shortage of PvP-focused MMOs in the market, and turbine would be competing with all of them), but it will almost certainly alienate their existing fan base.

given a choice between driving away the majority of the customers that they currently have by trying to cater to a new group of customers that may or may not ever show up, or just sticking with what they know already works and at least keeps their current fans paying (happy would be an overstatement :P ), well... frankly, i think they'd be crazy to choose to completely change their target demographic after spending 6 years developing everything the way they have.

[MrChipinator]

My "someone said something about PvP being poorly done and balanced past U9" senses were tingling, and I came'a runnin'.

[rdasca]

OP you will get pretty much no sympathy here, PvP is not a concept that translates to D&D very well, and as such does not translate to DDO.

As others have said there are 100's of MMOs that do PvP, some better than others; however, PvP in DDO is an afterthought, and should at best remain that way.

So you have a few of choices regarding your PvP fix:

1. You can play DDO and when the PvP mood strikes you find another game that has the kind of PvP you like.
2. You can only PvP with people that have your exact build and gear, this way it will be "fair".
3. You can forget about PvP altogether and play the game you logged into.

There are of course other options, but one of the above should get you pointed in the right direction.

And oh yeah, not even one programming second should ever be spent on PvP unless that time is used to either turn it off completely or used to make an island somewhere far away in the game with a teleport guy in the harbor that sends the PvPers to it, and get it out of the taverns completely.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I do not like PvP.

But I would not mind improving it. (if it does not effect the rest of the game)

However, taking abilities away from people is not improving it.

All abilities should be useful in PvP. (I'm looking at you stealth skills)

and "the pits" are just stupid.

I have no sympathy for anyone who jumps in a pit, beats up lvl one guys... and then complains when someone else kills him with something he cannot figure out how to defend against.

Standing in the middle of a room and asking people to try to kill you... is... well... just asking to get killed by someone. :cool:

and then they come to the forums and /beg to have some attack removed from PvP... so they can go stand there again and /flex that no one can kill them.

uhmmm.... nope. No sympathy.
no Dev time should ever be invested in "fixing" the pits.

other parts of PvP... improving... maybe.
Improving by letting every ability work. So every build can have a chance to use his powers tactically... smartly... to win a match of some sort.

[Diroctive]

It seems the majority of the people that post in PVP are there to derail threads by droning on about how DDO is not a PVP game. "DDO is not a PVP game" is a standard response to every single thread in this section of forums. It's a bit like going to to beach to complain about how much you don't like sand.

[Aons]

The usual "people are killing me I don't like this" stuff eh.

And no, they should never, ever put time on the PVP system because this is not a PVP game.

^^^This

[xenobias]

Kinda makes me vision a guy walking into an alley and a thug jumps out at him.

He sees the thug has a pipe and says,

"Hey God! That guy has a pipe and I don't! Take his pipe away, it's not fair!"

[rdasca]

It seems the majority of the people that post in PVP are there to derail threads by droning on about how DDO is not a PVP game. "DDO is not a PVP game" is a standard response to every single thread in this section of forums. It's a bit like going to to beach to complain about how much you don't like sand.

No, PvPers in DDO are more like a person going to mountains and complaining there are no white sandy beaches.

People come in this forum to post their ideas about PvP in DDO, pro or con, the fact that the overwhelming majority are con is not a problem with people expressing their opinions, it is only a reflection of the fact most people do not want even the PvP we have, much less anything added to it or the game changed to accommodate it.

[Mastikator]

No, PvPers in DDO are more like a person going to mountains and complaining there are no white sandy beaches.

People come in this forum to post their ideas about PvP in DDO, pro or con, the fact that the overwhelming majority are con is not a problem with people expressing their opinions, it is only a reflection of the fact most people do not want even the PvP we have, much less anything added to it or the game changed to accommodate it.

When every suggestion- good or bad, is shot down with comments like "ZERO DEVELOPMENT TIME SPENT ON PVP PLZ" it disincentives people to make positive threads that take time and effort to construct. What you're left with are the ones that suggest vague, poorly thought out, massive changes, and those that whine. I could make several suggestions that would be easy to implement and wouldn't upset the PvE balance, as have many others, and it would be shot down without regard. It's so bad that you even need devs coming in and reminding people that exclaiming retardedly that PvP is not worth consideration is off topic and rude.

[rdasca]

When every suggestion- good or bad, is shot down with comments like "ZERO DEVELOPMENT TIME SPENT ON PVP PLZ" it disincentives people to make positive threads that take time and effort to construct. What you're left with are the ones that suggest vague, poorly thought out, massive changes, and those that whine. I could make several suggestions that would be easy to implement and wouldn't upset the PvE balance, as have many others, and it would be shot down without regard. It's so bad that you even need devs coming in and reminding people that exclaiming retardedly that PvP is not worth consideration is off topic and rude.

You are of course right about most of these types of threads the OP and supporters get overrun; however, people like myself do not want time or money spent on a system that inherently has issues with not only D&D mechanics but the whole philosophy of D&D. I do not condone people getting "rude" or outright mean when responding to these post. I do know is if suggestions are made that “changes to the game” are needed to be made to accommodate PvP, I for one will not support it even passively.

There are many more of the “whine” type post than well thought out suggestions, of course that could be said about most of the rest of the forums as well.

You probably could make some good suggestions, heck I probably could as well, and you are free to make them and honestly I have seen one or two suggestions about PvP changes I could agree to, but 99% of the ones here in the PvP section, no way.

Cordovan is not a dev, and has also posted about calling people names, but I get your point; however, in the case of this post, the OP calls for changes to the game and calls for more dev time to make DDO PvP "start putting more effort into the system that other games use" and the answer to that is always no IMO, this game has its issues but personally I rather like the fact it is not a carbon copy of any of the 100 plus MMOs out there.

I get that there are those that like PvP and want more of it in DDO, I understand that they are just as likely to pay money the same as me and as such have just as much right to ask Turbine to spend that money in a certain way, but Turbine has to decide where to spend its money and if a majority of players dislike PvP then they are not going to spend a lot of time on it, and since I do not want them to, then I will post my opinion of where I would rather my money be spent or not spent as is the case.

[adamkatt]

I dont like pvp, i also dont like sand..

ok maybe its just sand























hmmmmm

[Ssdprref]

Complete 10 ED's

Twist Siren's Song, Chords of Disruption and Pin.

Craft a Hell Fire crossbow.

Go Draconic and select acid.



Go in Pvp
Charm
Pin your enemy,
Fly Attack him.
Meteor Swarm.
Dragon Breath.

Congrats you can kill anything in the PVP with ANY class.

[arjiwan]

Forum Commenter: I like PVP
Forum Crowd: Boooooo!
Forum Commenter: ...to die
Forum Crowd: Yayyyyyyyy!

[adamkatt]

Complete 10 ED's

Twist Siren's Song, Chords of Disruption and Pin.

Craft a Hell Fire crossbow.

Go Draconic and select acid.



Go in Pvp
Charm
Pin your enemy,
Fly Attack him.
Meteor Swarm.
Dragon Breath.

Congrats you can kill anything in the PVP with ANY class.

Charm? LoL.....

[Ssdprref]

Charm? LoL.....

Siren's Song*

[adamkatt]

Siren's Song*

If said player were charmed then you would technically be in control of them. You wouldnt need all those other tactics. you could just use them to taunt the nearest nuker.

Charm, its all you need!

[yawumpus]

One important use of pvp is to test certain attacks/defenses in a completely controlled environment. Every time an attack is disabled or otherwise altered for pvp, it damages the ability to test how it works in the pve world. PVPers should either go get EDs themselves, or go find a pvp pit that is missing such epic builds. Devs should never consider taking something out of the pve world to fix a problem with pvpers not bothering to buy the expansion.

I think it says something that you want to remove parts of the game from everybody to help a whiny portion of the game that isn't supporting Turbine.

[ka0t1c1sm]

It seems the majority of the people that post in PVP are there to derail threads by droning on about how DDO is not a PVP game. "DDO is not a PVP game" is a standard response to every single thread in this section of forums. It's a bit like going to to beach to complain about how much you don't like sand.

If DDO is the beach, then PvE is its sand. Complaining about PvP in DDO is more like complaining about seeing trash littering that beach.


People come in this forum to post their ideas about PvP in DDO, pro or con, the fact that the overwhelming majority are con is not a problem with people expressing their opinions, it is only a reflection of the fact most people do not want even the PvP we have, much less anything added to it or the game changed to accommodate it.

This. +1.

[Ssdprref]

If said player were charmed then you would technically be in control of them. You wouldnt need all those other tactics. you could just use them to taunt the nearest nuker.

Charm, its all you need!

You don't go in the Pit very often do you?

[Nedime]

If said player were charmed then you would technically be in control of them. You wouldnt need all those other tactics. you could just use them to taunt the nearest nuker.

Charm, its all you need!

Well.
Lol.
OK.

Pin: Ranged or Thrown Attack: (Cooldown [20/15] seconds) enemy takes [+2/+3][w] damage. If enemy is not moving, enemy is pinned in place for [9/18] seconds. Enemy is slowed if moving. (No saving throw observed for either effect)

Siren's Song: Spontaneous song: (Active Cooldown: [60/50/40] seconds) Unbreakable mesmerize on a single target and deals 2 Constitution damage every [3/2/1] seconds. Duration 12 seconds.

Chord of Disruption: (Passive) When Siren's Song expires, Chord of Disruption focuses your energy to a single disruptive point causing [5d100+700 / 6d100+800 / 7d100+900] disintegrating sonic damage. If a Fortitude save is made effects are halved.

Dragon Breath: Active Ability: (Cooldown 1min) Cone that deals 1d15 +15 [red fire/white cold/black acid/blue electric] damage per character level (reflex save for half). Can use 5 times per rest.

Flyby Attack: Active Ability: (Cooldown 1min) Executes an abundant step which passes through enemies and deals 2d6 [fire/cold/acid/electric] damage per character level to any enemy struck during the attack. Each enemy is also knocked down (reflex save DC 20 + 1/2 character level + INT/CHA modifier for half damage; STR/DEX save DC 20 + 1/2 character level + INT/CHA modifier negates knockdown).

You got it now ?

[keveniaftw]

Complete 10 ED's

Twist Siren's Song, Chords of Disruption and Pin.

Craft a Hell Fire crossbow.

Go Draconic and select acid.



Go in Pvp
Charm
Pin your enemy,
Fly Attack him.
Meteor Swarm.
Dragon Breath.

Congrats you can kill anything in the PVP with ANY class.
Unfortunatly, your plan is not foolproof.
Siren's song get's absorbed by spell absorption
All the other attacks are too slow if:
Monk uses kukan-do
Earth savant uses earthgrab
Ranger manyshots you
I've actually been working on an the concept of an ideal pvp build (not gonna build it myself) and I think I found something pretty legit. Some pvp fan made him to 20 and is now gonna take the ED's and twists I told him to take and we'll see how it turns out once he's ready :-)
And no, he's not a caster.

[Ssdprref]

Unfortunatly, your plan is not foolproof.
Siren's song get's absorbed by spell absorption
All the other attacks are too slow if:
Monk uses kukan-do
Earth savant uses earthgrab
Ranger manyshots you
I've actually been working on an the concept of an ideal pvp build (not gonna build it myself) and I think I found something pretty legit. Some pvp fan made him to 20 and is now gonna take the ED's and twists I told him to take and we'll see how it turns out once he's ready :-)
And no, he's not a caster.


If the opponent has Pale:
Swap Meteor Swarm to first attack
then continue with the sequence.

If the opponent has evasion, AKA monk/ranger.
Don't bother with Fly attack nor Breath.
Meteor Swarm,
Sirens,
Pin
Chords*1.50 will cause more damage than their classes can hold.


Of course, you'll suffer if you don't have evasion or a good save for PWS but in as soon as you get his Pale off. You're at the top of the food pyramid.

[keveniaftw]

If the opponent has Pale:
Swap Meteor Swarm to first attack
then continue with the sequence.

If the opponent has evasion, AKA monk/ranger.
Don't bother with Fly attack nor Breath.
Meteor Swarm,
Sirens,
Pin
Chords*1.50 will cause more damage than their classes can hold.


Of course, you'll suffer if you don't have evasion or a good save for PWS but in as soon as you get his Pale off. You're at the top of the food pyramid.

Then u meet any class in SHiradi champion with TR missiles and you're done for...

[adamkatt]

Well.
Lol.
OK.

Pin: Ranged or Thrown Attack: (Cooldown [20/15] seconds) enemy takes [+2/+3][w] damage. If enemy is not moving, enemy is pinned in place for [9/18] seconds. Enemy is slowed if moving. (No saving throw observed for either effect)

Siren's Song: Spontaneous song: (Active Cooldown: [60/50/40] seconds) Unbreakable mesmerize on a single target and deals 2 Constitution damage every [3/2/1] seconds. Duration 12 seconds.

Chord of Disruption: (Passive) When Siren's Song expires, Chord of Disruption focuses your energy to a single disruptive point causing [5d100+700 / 6d100+800 / 7d100+900] disintegrating sonic damage. If a Fortitude save is made effects are halved.

Dragon Breath: Active Ability: (Cooldown 1min) Cone that deals 1d15 +15 [red fire/white cold/black acid/blue electric] damage per character level (reflex save for half). Can use 5 times per rest.

Flyby Attack: Active Ability: (Cooldown 1min) Executes an abundant step which passes through enemies and deals 2d6 [fire/cold/acid/electric] damage per character level to any enemy struck during the attack. Each enemy is also knocked down (reflex save DC 20 + 1/2 character level + INT/CHA modifier for half damage; STR/DEX save DC 20 + 1/2 character level + INT/CHA modifier negates knockdown).

You got it now ?

Got what?? I dont need in game descriptions, i could look that up myself. The man listed charm, If you were to charm a player Like charmed mob they should fight for you until the effect wears off....

[adamkatt]

You don't go in the Pit very often do you?

Pvp is only good for testing spells and/or abilities, why would you stay there long?

[Ssdprref]

Then u meet any class in SHiradi champion with TR missiles and you're done for...

Lmao, last time an Archer killed my Cleric was before expansion. Seriously, if you don't go to the PVP in a daily basis don't post.

[Ssdprref]

Pvp is only good for testing spells and/or abilities, why would you stay there long?

Not really, PVP is awful to test abilities.

You'll go there because you want to know how to PVP and don't make a fool of yourself on the PVP forums.

[adamkatt]

Not really, PVP is awful to test abilities.

You'll go there because you want to know how to PVP and don't make a fool of yourself on the PVP forums.

If i wanted to make a fool out of myself i go play a real pvp game called battlefield 3.

[keveniaftw]

Lmao, last time an Archer killed my Cleric was before expansion. Seriously, if you don't go to the PVP in a daily basis don't post.

You idiot, you didn't read the TR missiles part, did you?
Please don't talk bout pvp if u don't know anything about it because:
Shiradi champion TR missiles will basically oneshot any toon, if he has spell absorption it will 2-shot him in combo with meteor swarm, and if you're lucky still oneshot him with over 1000 damage...

Since you seemed to negate it last time I posted that I will break it down

7% chance on 3d20 cold damage
7% chance on 2d10 stat damage
7% chance on 1d100 random damage
7% chance on random effect, usually dealing alot of damage
7% chance on 3d20 light damage

These chances are applied once for every magic missile, TR missiles will send 10, unstoppable missiles which already hit like 35-40 averagely (crits included) While the TR missiles are blocked by PLIS, the effects are not. Also meteor swarm (4 or 8 different attacks, I'm not sure how that one counts) as it will strip pale lavender in the proces.

Do you really want to win in pvp? Don't you give a **** about the fight and are you just there for the kill? Do you want a pure pvp-win build? Then use a 17 wizard/3 monk force specced with PLIS, house p shield, shiradi champion maxed and of course he needs to have his HP maxed out. No existing build can beat that build except maybe a lucky strike from an AA. Of course you'll have to boost your reflex save vs earthgrab but as wizard with twists, that shouldn't be problem.

[MrChipinator]

This turned into a name calling thread really quickly, if the devs actually looked at PvP (do not care if they do) then I assume the Cube would be along any second now...











That was a dramatic pause.

[Ssdprref]

You idiot, you didn't read the TR missiles part, did you?
Please don't talk bout pvp if u don't know anything about it because:
Shiradi champion TR missiles will basically oneshot any toon, if he has spell absorption it will 2-shot him in combo with meteor swarm, and if you're lucky still oneshot him with over 1000 damage...

Since you seemed to negate it last time I posted that I will break it down

7% chance on 3d20 cold damage
7% chance on 2d10 stat damage
7% chance on 1d100 random damage
7% chance on random effect, usually dealing alot of damage
7% chance on 3d20 light damage

These chances are applied once for every magic missile, TR missiles will send 10, unstoppable missiles which already hit like 35-40 averagely (crits included) While the TR missiles are blocked by PLIS, the effects are not. Also meteor swarm (4 or 8 different attacks, I'm not sure how that one counts) as it will strip pale lavender in the proces.

Do you really want to win in pvp? Don't you give a **** about the fight and are you just there for the kill? Do you want a pure pvp-win build? Then use a 17 wizard/3 monk force specced with PLIS, house p shield, shiradi champion maxed and of course he needs to have his HP maxed out. No existing build can beat that build except maybe a lucky strike from an AA. Of course you'll have to boost your reflex save vs earthgrab but as wizard with twists, that shouldn't be problem.

Woah, as far as I remember only one stance can be activated at the same time. Yeah, a maxed TR missile will hit for 800 Damage. So let's say I meteor swarm, he meteor swarm. I charm he throw MM. . . Who wins?

Or I can get on my Artificer and blew you up with my first bolt for 1k damage, then the second hitting for 150+ plus the third hitting for 150+ and you're done. Before you even load your magic missile.

Taking in count max Hp without gimping a Wizard can't go over 900, you stand no chance of surviving.

[Ssdprref]

If i wanted to make a fool out of myself i go play a real pvp game called battlefield 3.

What's the difference between Battlefield and DDO? I mean, you are virtual characters playing against other virtual characters in both?

PVE it's just playing the game how you like against enemies with limited AI. PVP is playing DDO against other people and having fun at it. I don't see any difference.

[StigglePig]

So you want to remove the best that a class can have? If you keep going with that line of thinking, you'll be fighting as level 1s in tutorial gear.

Anyway PvP is fine the way it is, it exists and that's all it needs.

What can I say except well said :)

[keveniaftw]

Woah, as far as I remember only one stance can be activated at the same time. Yeah, a maxed TR missile will hit for 800 Damage. So let's say I meteor swarm, he meteor swarm. I charm he throw MM. . . Who wins?

Or I can get on my Artificer and blew you up with my first bolt for 1k damage, then the second hitting for 150+ plus the third hitting for 150+ and you're done. Before you even load your magic missile.

Taking in count max Hp without gimping a Wizard can't go over 900, you stand no chance of surviving.

Euh, seriously? Yes, only one stance can be activated at the same time, and yes, most of em use the same stance to have the effects applied...
I have fought against Shiradi TR missiles and yes, unless I wear a PLIS they oneshot me because yes they hit over 1000 damage...

[solacerodgers]

Complete 10 ED's

Twist Siren's Song, Chords of Disruption and Pin.

Craft a Hell Fire crossbow.

Go Draconic and select acid.



Go in Pvp
Charm
Pin your enemy,
Fly Attack him.
Meteor Swarm.
Dragon Breath.

Congrats you can kill anything in the PVP with ANY class.

Use pale it eats sirens then sharadi you in the 2 seconds it took you to try and cast that win . . . . your system is broken.

If you want to play dirty exalted angel be at peace ( no save pale wont help either ) boulder toss rinse and repeat.

[Viconiax]

Use pale it eats sirens then sharadi you in the 2 seconds it took you to try and cast that win . . . . your system is broken.

If you want to play dirty exalted angel be at peace ( no save pale wont help either ) boulder toss rinse and repeat.

Been awhile since I'm on forums but. EE Jewel Cloak blocked at least 2 TR mm before it fully discharge (shiradi effect won't go through it either). And use grasp of earth dragon for be at peace. *yawn*

[Hilltrot]

ugh, shouldn't have posted.

[Fedpro]

I just came back to DDO after 3 years on a purely PvP MMO

The one and only thing to remember about PvP is...

IT ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR <yeah, that was 3 years of frustration coming out>

Honor and fairness are weaknesses that the dishonorable and the unfair exploit

This is the foundation of playing against other thinking and feeling sentient beings

To put it into D&D terms, rules and fairness would only be followed by a Lawful alignment

A Chaotic aligned player would club you over the head when the "help" you up after tripping you

[GeoBob]

It was a while ago, almost a year ago, that I made this thread and completely forgot about it. After taking a break from the game and playing some other games with a lot larger PvP basis (Like Guild Wars 2) I came back to DDO a bit. PvP hasn't changed a bit. Although what it was before, was casters were the OP class. Now it doesn't matter what you play just what you do. Almost any class has it's advantages, although it is still extremely unbalanced. I was in "The Pit" about a month ago on my Druid, just messing around, when a barbarian jumps down, walks up to me, and hits me with adrenaline and the likes. One hit I was down to about -10k HP. Later that same session a level 15 sorc jumped down. Being 25 I didn't think anything about it, I figured they wouldn't even attack a 25 and I wouldn't attack them. Next thing I knew I was dead. It used Heat Death one shotting me. That shouldn't be like that but w/e.

One that that annoys me the most about every single PvP thread is that people that don't PvP come into the thread and say "Don't PvP, it is not a PvP game." These are the people that should just stay out of this section of the forums. There is nothing I hate more than when someone decides that it is their responsibility to tell you what you should and should not do in a video game. I think I speak for everyone when I say this. I don't do a lot of public trading in this game, although i know some people that spend hours doing it. I don't craft either. But you don't see me stalking that section of theforums giving people advice. I know the basics for crafting so if someone has a basic question i can answer it, but not in depth. It is an MMO, and every MMO should spend some time on PvP. Whether that is as much as GW2/ESO or something else. I am of in no favor of having Turbine come in and completely change PvP. And one person brought up the argument of saying "Make everything available, that way they can test it before going out to PvE". I agree with this, except thats what Private Arenas are for. You can enter your own little arena just you and a friend and you can use any ability that you want to.

I remember a long time ago Turbine had plans to go through and rework PvP and make it so that you got an HP Buff and such when you went in, and that you couldn't attack someone after say, 5 seconds of entering the pit, and they couldn't attack you. That would get rid of the entire Drop Casting problem that everyone that PvPs deals with. This never happened, and I know that it sucked for me when it wasn't implemented.

I suppose the main part of what I am trying to say, is that PvP should be looked over, tweaked a little, even out the playing field, make it something that is fun. Not something that everyone hates.

[96th_Malice]

Pvp is only good for testing spells and/or abilities, why would you stay there long?

One word ....

Beer !

( gets me every time )