Feedback for Adjustments to Hirelings!

[SqueakofDoom]

Hello! We have made some adjustments to Hireling stats and equipment at all levels. This thread is for feedback on these changes.

[whiteline]

i hope they are better then before and heal you not stand there and watch you die

[jejeba86]

Uhul!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[terrenceknight1]

Could we get a writeup on whats all been changed on each hireling or would that be too much work? It would help to know what we're (..ok me) are looking for/at?

[Feather_of_Sun]

Could we get a writeup on whats all been changed on each hireling or would that be too much work? It would help to know what we're (..ok me) are looking for/at?

The purpose of this thread is to gather details on how playing with hirelings feels currently on Lamannia.

Hireling equipment at all levels has been updated. They should deal more damage in combat, and be a little more survivable (Within reason- these guys won't be soloing elite quests for you anytime soon).

Hireling ability scores have been redone. They progress much higher than they did previously.

Hirelings now have a high Concentration skill. Their spells will be interrupted far less (unless they get hit for a lot of damage in one hit).

To provide feedback, please include the following with your post:

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used.
Your level.
The quest you ran.
The difficulty that quest was set to.
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.


Feedback presented without that information will not be taken into account. Thanks.

[LeoLionxxx]

i hope they are better then before and heal you not stand there and watch you die

Just sais gear/stats have changed. Don't think more INT points contributes to hirling AI.


Are the changes found in the condeminium articals (have the ones for epic Hires been added yet)?

[Terebinthia]

Hireling equipment at all levels has been updated. They should deal more damage in combat, and be a little more survivable (Within reason- these guys won't be soloing elite quests for you anytime soon).

Hireling ability scores have been redone. They progress much higher than they did previously.

Hirelings now have a high Concentration skill. Their spells will be interrupted far less (unless they get hit for a lot of damage in one hit).

Please feel free to try hirelings out at a variety of level ranges, and let us know how they feel.

More concentration is great, particularly for the Cleric / FvS hires. Can you guys see your way to some of them learning Quicken too? :)

Also, less random attacking when set to defence would be awesome on these hires. Yelling at Albus to stop hitting the mobs is getting old :)

[der_kluge]

Can they get muckbanes?

My clerics end up punching things in The Pit before I even make it to the second furnace.

[Feather_of_Sun]

Can they get muckbanes?

My clerics end up punching things in The Pit before I even make it to the second furnace.

I also made their equipment unbreakable.

[der_kluge]

I also made their equipment unbreakable.

I just posrepped you for that. I'll be in Boston in a few weeks. Remind me to buy you a beer.

[terrenceknight1]

Would it be possible to swap out a few spells from the epic hirelings to put in mass death ward? Like Andaro swap out Firestorm/Judgment for Mass Deathward? Heroes Feast/Judgement for deathward on Brec? Even with these changes it'll be incredibly hard to consider using the higher level hirelings when Albus still has the best spell selection by far.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I also made their equipment unbreakable.

Well, THAT elicited a "DUUUUDE!" from me. Kudos!

I second the "Quicken" notion, but Concentration is a start...

I also second the "stop hitting stuff!" notion. I'd really like Defend on healers to be "Stand there and be a healbot. There's a REASON I used Invisibility on you, stop breaking it!"

[Gadget2775]

Don't have access to lama right now, but would like to know if they've been granted level appropriate resist. Quite irritating having to waste SP or wands to prevent fire mephits from burning my Cleric hireling alive.

[Scraap]

Hireling equipment at all levels has been updated. They should deal more damage in combat, and be a little more survivable (Within reason- these guys won't be soloing elite quests for you anytime soon).

Hireling ability scores have been redone. They progress much higher than they did previously.

Hirelings now have a high Concentration skill. Their spells will be interrupted far less (unless they get hit for a lot of damage in one hit).

Please feel free to try hirelings out at a variety of level ranges, and let us know how they feel.

Sounds good. Summons in-scope, or need more practice with these first?

[LOOON375]

Hireling equipment at all levels has been updated. They should deal more damage in combat, and be a little more survivable (Within reason- these guys won't be soloing elite quests for you anytime soon).

Hireling ability scores have been redone. They progress much higher than they did previously.

Hirelings now have a high Concentration skill. Their spells will be interrupted far less (unless they get hit for a lot of damage in one hit).

Please feel free to try hirelings out at a variety of level ranges, and let us know how they feel.This is darn great news all around. I don't do Lammania, but Im looking forward to trying them out since I use hirelings a bulk of the time.

[FranOhmsford]

OK I've been thru most if not all of this before in other threads but as I can't get onto Lamannia I'm going to reiterate:

1. Every lvl 8-14 Cleric Hireling that does NOT have DV should be given Radiant Burst!
Those being:
Fergus - Lvl 8
Samuel Merrik - Lvl 9
Fayden Maeleth - Lvl 10 {More on her later}
Flagon Moren - Lvl 12
Dheran Giles - Lvl 13

2. Fayden Maeleth - Come on - Her description states she's a follower of the Undying Court - What's with the Club?

3. Fighter Hirelings with Neg levels - Please take Maelstrom away from Castle!

4. Every lvl 16-20 Cleric Hireling whether they have DV or NOT should be Radiant at all times {AURA}.
Natasha and Ayron have DV - Allow us to choose to tell them NOT to go Radiant upon Summoning if we intend to use.

5. Aunidil Tor'Val, Nimeth Celibel, Tanya Brightstone, Larafay D'Orrett, Caraneth M'yar - These are Offensive FavSoul hirelings - Apart from Larafay they all need Boosting - DO NOT NERF LARAFAY!

6. Certain Hirelings have been better than others for a long time:
Kurik Forgewarden, Anvil, Toad, Tempys Lorben, Isadora Ironclaw, Shadow....
Level ups are in order in my opinion for these 6 at least.

7. On the other hand there are a few hirelings that could perhaps do with re-training:
Maloren, Nedry Smallfoot, Veil, Arkyn Shahrud...
I wouldn't shed a tear if these four were to be forced to defend Coyle for eternity.

8. K'Zurth Q'Arab - Was nerfed heavily a few updates ago - Now spams Enervate instead of Firewall - Still has the same incredibly low HP total and is just as much of an Aggro magnet but does NO dmg.

9. Zeran Hamsterherder - Someone should tell him he's Lvl 5 NOT lvl 7 - Spell Selection is seriously wonky. Either that or Level him up.

10. I love Wyoh - Most people don't BUT it's obvious to me that Implosion is there to be used - It does work pretty often too BUT I'd like to see Wyoh be given some DC/Spell Pen Boosts please for Epic Content.

11. Still on Wyoh - We have Zero, Zilch, Nada Epic Clerics - Why not Level up Wyoh to 21, Klin can take her place at 20, Heystack moves up to 19, Isadora to 18 and Ayron and Natasha stay where they are.
Now you have 1 Cleric Hire of each Lvl from 13-21 Leaving the FavSoul hires as the alternative.

12. Rogue Acrobats should use their Quarterstaves in Battle - Why do they all change weapons {only pulling out the staves when asked to Search/Disable}?

[sirgog]

Anyone able to post the following:

- HP of a level 12-ish divine hireling
- Your best estimate as to the Fortification of a hireling in that level range

- The same for a level 16 or so one and a level 20+ one

[Sonos]

By gear, do you mean some +6 con items? Their hp is usually really really low for level(in higher levels)

Thanks for updating hirelings btw!

[FranOhmsford]

Anyone able to post the following:

- HP of a level 12-ish divine hireling
- Your best estimate as to the Fortification of a hireling in that level range

- The same for a level 16 or so one and a level 20+ one

Current Non-Augmented HP and SP for..
Flagon Moren - 162/944
Miranda Kelven - 172/858

Yes that's right Miranda has more HP than Flagon but he has more SPs.

Augmented..
Flagon - 200/986
Miranda - 210/900

[sirgog]

Current Non-Augmented HP and SP for..
Flagon Moren - 162/944
Miranda Kelven - 172/858

Yes that's right Miranda has more HP than Flagon but he has more SPs.

Augmented..
Flagon - 200/986
Miranda - 210/900

So a level 12 has 172hp. Reverse engineering that:

- Clr12: 96hp
- Heroic Durability: 20hp = 116
- Improved False Life OR Toughness item effect: 136
- 16 Con (including items): 172


What I'd expect to see on a first-lifer Clr12 with no hand-me-down loot:

- Clr12: 96
- Heroic: 116
- IFL: 136
- 20 Con (14 base, +1 tome, +5 item, all very easily traded for - even a 28 pointer should start at 14 Con): 196
- Toughness feat with two enhancements: 230
(Modify for race - 218 squishy races, 242 durable races).

Of course with more effort they could get a GFL item, +6 Con item, +2 tome and Toughness item but that is much less accessible to a first lifer.

[Feather_of_Sun]

Anyone able to post the following:

- HP of a level 12-ish divine hireling
- Your best estimate as to the Fortification of a hireling in that level range

- The same for a level 16 or so one and a level 20+ one

All hirelings now have a standardized package of defensive bonuses. This includes enhancement bonuses to every ability score, False Life, Protection, Resistance, Physical Resistance Rating, Natural Armor, Proof Against Poison/Disease, Blindness Immunity, Death Ward, and an Insight bonus to AC.

Of these, the bonuses that can scale do so as the hireling increases in level.

Melee hirelings use the defensive package equal to their level.
Rogues/bards use the package two levels lower.
Clerics/Favored Souls use the package three levels lower.
Sorcerers/Wizards use the package four levels lower.

As an example of how the stats scale:
Light Fortification from levels 1-5, Moderate from levels 6-10, and Heavy on 11+.
So a melee hireling gets Heavy Fortification at level 11, while a Sorcerer gains it at level 15.

[elvorix]

I saw this thread about upgrading hirelings and thought this would be the perfect spot to mention my idea. I love the DDO hireling system and I would love to see it expanded. And since the precedence is already set allowing the collectors edition people to have a permanant gold seal hireling (the panther) why not open it up to everyone?

I think this game would be greatly energized by allowing players to buy permanent gold seal hirelings in the DDO store.

I think it would be a great way to turn a mediocre revenue stream (the 1 hour henchmen summons) into a revenue torrent and it would make the game much more interesting to players as well.

I would never waste my money on a temporary gold seal hireling. And I never bought one in all the years I was a subscriber to DDO.

But I would happily pay $10 - 20 (30+ for a unique cool looking skin) for a permanent gold seal hireling that was bound to a single character or 30+ for one that is account bound.

I could imagine buying 2 or 3 of them at various levels while leveling up. And then buying a whole party of 5 when I hit max level. At $10 a piece, that is an extra $70 per character I would happily pay.

And I bet there are a lot of people who play the game who would never waste money on a temporary gold seal henchman (in all the years I played I never once saw anyone buy one of those and never bought myself one.) but I bet a ton of players would happily fork money over for one that is permanent.

This would also be in the great tradition of DDO games such as baldurs gate, never winter nights and the temple of elemental evil. In those computer games you could have your pc's party fleshed out with NPC's.

I would still party a lot, but it would be great if I was partying with one other person and we each were able to summon two extra henchmen to fill out the party. This would be an amazing game changer for DDO and I think a great revenue stream as well. I can't imagine people actually spend much money on a one hour summonable henchmen. I know I would never purchase one.

If DDO did that I would LOVE this game. I have been speaking to my guild mates in mumble and we are thinking of setting up a chapter and moving over en-mass to DDO if this was implemented.

This thread came out of a discussion on the general forum:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=392635

[FranOhmsford]

All hirelings now have a standardized package of defensive bonuses. This includes enhancement bonuses to every ability score, False Life, Protection, Resistance, Physical Resistance Rating, Natural Armor, Proof Against Poison/Disease, Blindness Immunity, Death Ward, and an Insight bonus to AC.

Of these, the bonuses that can scale do so as the hireling increases in level.

Melee hirelings use the defensive package equal to their level.
Rogues/bards use the package two levels lower.
Clerics/Favored Souls use the package three levels lower.
Sorcerers/Wizards use the package four levels lower.

As an example of how the stats scale:
Light Fortification from levels 1-5, Moderate from levels 6-10, and Heavy on 11+.
So a melee hireling gets Heavy Fortification at level 11, while a Sorcerer gains it at level 15.

1. Where do the Paladin Hires fit in? Yes I know atm they're even worse than the standard Fighter/Barb Hires.

2. Seriously Clerics have to wait till Lvl 8 to get Moderate Fort?

3. Fighter/Barb Hires seem pretty durable to me already - The issue is with DPS and Tanking i.e. the fact that they follow behind you rather than taking the lead when combat is upcoming.

4. Sorcs and Wizzies according to this are going to be Glass Cannons - I hope you're upping their DPS because otherwise no-one's gonna bother with them.
EDIT: Example - K'Zurth Q'arab {Lvl 7 Wizard} - Currently has incredibly low HP and spams Enervate - High Aggro/No DPS - Under this new package; Being Lvl 7 he's going to have Light Fort {No help whatsoever} and Lesser False Life {5 Extra HP}.
I personally feel that the hirelings need the personal touch and fine tuning one on one rather than mass changes that affect all whether or not it actually helps or hinders a certain hireling.
Some will be much better yes - Others will undoubtedly be far worse than they are now.

[danotmano1998]

All hirelings now have a standardized package of defensive bonuses. This includes enhancement bonuses to every ability score, False Life, Protection, Resistance, Physical Resistance Rating, Natural Armor, Proof Against Poison/Disease, Blindness Immunity, Death Ward, and an Insight bonus to AC.

Of these, the bonuses that can scale do so as the hireling increases in level.

Melee hirelings use the defensive package equal to their level.
Rogues/bards use the package two levels lower.
Clerics/Favored Souls use the package three levels lower.
Sorcerers/Wizards use the package four levels lower.

As an example of how the stats scale:
Light Fortification from levels 1-5, Moderate from levels 6-10, and Heavy on 11+.
So a melee hireling gets Heavy Fortification at level 11, while a Sorcerer gains it at level 15.

Outstanding!
Thanks, these are some very good changes indeed. Much appreciated.

[sirgog]

All hirelings now have a standardized package of defensive bonuses. This includes enhancement bonuses to every ability score, False Life, Protection, Resistance, Physical Resistance Rating, Natural Armor, Proof Against Poison/Disease, Blindness Immunity, Death Ward, and an Insight bonus to AC.

Of these, the bonuses that can scale do so as the hireling increases in level.

Melee hirelings use the defensive package equal to their level.
Rogues/bards use the package two levels lower.
Clerics/Favored Souls use the package three levels lower.
Sorcerers/Wizards use the package four levels lower.

As an example of how the stats scale:
Light Fortification from levels 1-5, Moderate from levels 6-10, and Heavy on 11+.
So a melee hireling gets Heavy Fortification at level 11, while a Sorcerer gains it at level 15.

So Heavy Fort at 14 on divines and 13 on Bards (who are IMO as good at healing as the Clr/FvS's). That's OK as long as you avoid Dueragar quests in the 10-13 range (which, ironically, is the levels you'd be most likely to be running those quests at). You'll have Heavy Fort for Gianthold at least (another area where mobs have really nasty crits, or at least the orcs do).

Does hireling fortification exceed 100% at epic levels? At least the melee hires IMO should have 140-150% to stand up to epic Drow.

I still feel hireling HP is too low however (unless they have quite good PRR which would surprise me). I could keep a ~170hp level 12 toon alive by moving and jumping in combat, getting out of Acid Rains/Firewalls and drinking a resist potion when hit with Burning Blood. However hirelings do not have the AI for this.


Finally, hirelings need some form of elemental resistance across the board. Either a spell they can cast, or a static 20 point resist all for level 7+ hirelings, or something. Preferably more elemental resistance than players would have, maybe scaling to 50 or 60 resist all at 24 (as every player will get out of a firewall at least but hirelings do not). I would consider this much more important than an insight AC bonus.

[Kaeper]

Hello! We have made some adjustments to Hireling stats and equipment at all levels. This thread is for feedback on these changes.

Is there anything relating to AI in the pipeline? Especially relating to pets.

I've found with both my artificer and druid that their pets will stop following and/or assisting in combat or that there is considerable lag before they do. This behaviour is almost guaranteed to be occuring by mission end.

I raised it on the forums & it seemed like the issue was well known. It's not on the known issues list however (how well known must a known issue be before it is recognised as known?).

[bbqzor]

Melee hirelings use the defensive package equal to their level.
Rogues/bards use the package two levels lower.
Clerics/Favored Souls use the package three levels lower.
Sorcerers/Wizards use the package four levels lower.

Uh... consider this feedback to adjust that scaling:

Rog/Brd/Clr/Fvs use the package one level lower.
Sor/Wiz use the package two levels lower.

By 13 everyone should have heavy fort for about a billion reasons (its never been higher than ml13 historically, gianthold basically requires hvy fort, etc), and there is no reason that clerics, which are basically the 2nd best tanks in terms of gear access after the pal/ftr types, should be penalized worse than rogues here.

Also, a spread of more than 2 levels (which is what quest xp windows essentially are, base 12 to elite 14 for example) means hirelings are stuck whole entire tiers below the content they are being used in.

IE, if you want people to ever use a sorc hireling, keeping its defense to something resembling the level its being used in is probably necessary.

Overall, great changes to hirelings here, I am happy to see them finally being given the attention needed to keep them in line with modern times. But this gear scaling needs to be brought up to par in a jiffy before it goes live and leaves a whole slew of the current problems unaddressed (like the wiz meleeing with his starter gear and imploding still persisting in the above model, etc etc)

Thanks.

[Scraap]

Finally, hirelings need some form of elemental resistance across the board. Either a spell they can cast, or a static 20 point resist all for level 7+ hirelings, or something. Preferably more elemental resistance than players would have, maybe scaling to 50 or 60 resist all at 24 (as every player will get out of a firewall at least but hirelings do not). I would consider this much more important than an insight AC bonus.

Absorption, perhaps? That'd also let folks buff the things if they start performing poorly in a specific quest.

[Lord_Darquain]

Thank you.

[sirgog]

Uh... consider this feedback to adjust that scaling:

Rog/Brd/Clr/Fvs use the package one level lower.
Sor/Wiz use the package two levels lower.

By 13 everyone should have heavy fort for about a billion reasons (its never been higher than ml13 historically, gianthold basically requires hvy fort, etc), and there is no reason that clerics, which are basically the 2nd best tanks in terms of gear access after the pal/ftr types, should be penalized worse than rogues here.

Also, a spread of more than 2 levels (which is what quest xp windows essentially are, base 12 to elite 14 for example) means hirelings are stuck whole entire tiers below the content they are being used in.

IE, if you want people to ever use a sorc hireling, keeping its defense to something resembling the level its being used in is probably necessary.

Overall, great changes to hirelings here, I am happy to see them finally being given the attention needed to keep them in line with modern times. But this gear scaling needs to be brought up to par in a jiffy before it goes live and leaves a whole slew of the current problems unaddressed (like the wiz meleeing with his starter gear and imploding still persisting in the above model, etc etc)

Thanks.

When Gianthold was new Heavy Fortification was actually very hard to come by. I remember selling a Heavy Fortification ring for around a million platinum back then because they were so rare. People usually used a mixed defense of a moderate AC alongside Moderate Fortification and heavy use of crowd control.

It wasn't until Minos Legens that Heavy Fortification was widely available, and it wasn't until Sagrata and Adur-Nauc in Shroud that players feared being one-shot by crits and started to consider 100% fortification as absolutely mandatory. (Thinks back to when you couldn't raise in Shroud part 2 and some poor Sorc got one-shot by the orc...)

[bbqzor]

When Gianthold was new Heavy Fortification was actually very hard to come by. People usually used a mixed defense of a moderate AC alongside Moderate Fortification and heavy use of crowd control.

Maybe so, but I'm not really interested in how the game was. I've been playing quite while myself, and it has changed so much that its incredibly difficult to use the game itself as a metric anymore. As you say, back then you could get enough AC to matter, you could also be displaced by someone... the game has just changed enough its too hard to take any one piece of it in isolation anymore. You used to be able to reaver elite at lv14, nowadays that would be a tad more trying...

Currently, they are going to need heavy fort (specifically, in many cases to overcome the faults of an AI which cannot do things like avoid charging into melee like a human caster could). This extends to other mods as well, meaning equipment that is within 2 levels (ie one adventure band) or suffer the problems of being tiers below. To remain useful, hirelings of all types should be, more or less, on the same page for generic things like that.

Back then int6 items were rare and ML13. Now they are ml9 and common. Thats no reason for hirelings to suffer a slower int advancement, because of how it was ages ago... and that logic doesnt hold up here either.

Obviously people are going to have different opinions, and I am holding fast to mine here. I would not want a player in a lv15 quest using lv11 gear, or a level 7 quest using level 3 gear, etc. And it would be nice for the hirelings to avoid that situation as well.

Currently, they are mainly used as healbots, and occasionally melee dps. I would like to see that change. Summoning a sorc hireling as a defender on a TR to get burst dps, and feel like he won't blow up every 3 feet, would be quite appealing. It would expand the scope and feel of what can be done to accommodate different grouping situations in a positive manner. And having gear entire tiers of questing below where you are is counter to that desire. My 2 cents, and I'm solidly sticking to them.

[TrinityTurtle]

At this point I'd be happy if they'd just stop running away from me as if I have bubonic plague or something. They still keep running away like mad whether they are on the pink or the blue button, only the buddha looking do nothing button keeps them near. Sometimes.

I really am not that abusive of the little hire critters, honest turtle!

[letour]

Maybe so, but I'm not really interested in how the game was. I've been playing quite while myself, and it has changed so much that its incredibly difficult to use the game itself as a metric anymore. As you say, back then you could get enough AC to matter, you could also be displaced by someone... the game has just changed enough its too hard to take any one piece of it in isolation anymore. You used to be able to reaver elite at lv14, nowadays that would be a tad more trying...

Currently, they are going to need heavy fort (specifically, in many cases to overcome the faults of an AI which cannot do things like avoid charging into melee like a human caster could). This extends to other mods as well, meaning equipment that is within 2 levels (ie one adventure band) or suffer the problems of being tiers below. To remain useful, hirelings of all types should be, more or less, on the same page for generic things like that.

Back then int6 items were rare and ML13. Now they are ml9 and common. Thats no reason for hirelings to suffer a slower int advancement, because of how it was ages ago... and that logic doesnt hold up here either.

Obviously people are going to have different opinions, and I am holding fast to mine here. I would not want a player in a lv15 quest using lv11 gear, or a level 7 quest using level 3 gear, etc. And it would be nice for the hirelings to avoid that situation as well.

Currently, they are mainly used as healbots, and occasionally melee dps. I would like to see that change. Summoning a sorc hireling as a defender on a TR to get burst dps, and feel like he won't blow up every 3 feet, would be quite appealing. It would expand the scope and feel of what can be done to accommodate different grouping situations in a positive manner. And having gear entire tiers of questing below where you are is counter to that desire. My 2 cents, and I'm solidly sticking to them.

You seem to forget not all player have those gear. On my TR 2, i was still using light fort at level 10. If you are using only the stuff you find you may not have all those powerfull stuff like that at those level.

i remenber when i first start ddo that I was prefering hireling than real healer in a party because of their awesme sp pool and there ability to drink pot. I also rememeber in tangleroot to order hireling to open the door to the shrine after the trap, bacause he was the only to be able to survive to the trap because of the buff again trap hire have. So don't buff hire to hight. Beginner will no longer really on their teamate but on hireling.

Otherwise the change seem good let mage and cleric hire be less durable than fighter and rogue. :)

[nibel]

I just ask one thing from hirelings: Stop drinking SP potions when you still have 2/3 of your SP bar.

[btolson]

I don't think there is a need for fortification to be affected by the class package scaling: all hires should have heavy fort at the same level (11 is fine). Having their HP and PRR and whatnot scale with the class package is enough, no need to triple-dip expected survivability with fort. Beyond heavy fort however, full-BAB hires should see an exceptional bonus above 100% at higher levels of play.

I will also echo the recommendation for hirelings gaining innate energy resistance. 30/- at level 11 at a minimum (for all hires, no package scale here either), same as the spell. Probably give them 10 inherent at some point too, maybe more for the same reason they get a universal +20 to saves vs traps (10 inherent at L15, 20 at L19, 30 at L23, preserving a 4-level spread for every 10 points?). Survivability for hires is night and day between the characters that can buff hires with resists (my sorcs, pal, etc) and those who cannot (my barb, fighters, etc). This is doubly sad because my chars who cannot buff the hires also cannot buff themselves as easily and rely on hirelings even moreso.

Also consider granting hires concealment at some point. Blurry and Ghostly is all over equip now, hires expected to go toe-to-toe (or too dumb not to go toe-to-toe) should get themselves some of it. Maybe level 8 for Blurry and 16 for Ghostly.

Some DR would be good too, for all hires (subject to class package scaling):
Level 1: 5/magic (Invulnerability gear, never leave home without it)
Level 5: 5/evil
Level 10: 5/evil and 5/adamantine
Level 15: 5/-
Level 20: 5/- and 10/evil
Level 25: 10/-

[Cetus]

Hireling equipment at all levels has been updated. They should deal more damage in combat, and be a little more survivable (Within reason- these guys won't be soloing elite quests for you anytime soon).

Hireling ability scores have been redone. They progress much higher than they did previously.

Hirelings now have a high Concentration skill. Their spells will be interrupted far less (unless they get hit for a lot of damage in one hit).

Please feel free to try hirelings out at a variety of level ranges, and let us know how they feel.

Ever going to open up hireling classes to ALL existing classes? Or are you folks making decent cash off the rogue hirelings in the ddo store? Just a thought.

[Scraap]

Couple additional queries:

1- Design wise, do ya'll intend hirelings to be a partner in soloing, or a fallback after waiting for a 6th for 5-10 minutes or so? Makes a difference in how much they should be capable of handling.

2- Noticed you tweaked Lemming Coyle. Would that type of quest-specific NPC gain it's CR, or quest CR packaging?

[Saravis]

I only have one request with hires and that is when divine hires are on defensive, they do not do any attacks; no searing light, no shield bashing, no mace swinging. They do nothing but heal and cure ailments.

This will solve the majority of hire problems.

[Coldin]

Curious about one thing. Did iron defenders and wolf companions get any changes?

[Terebinthia]

Absorption, perhaps? That'd also let folks buff the things if they start performing poorly in a specific quest.

Absorption would be an excellent addition to henchies, yes please!

[delsoboss]

I just ask one thing from hirelings: Stop drinking SP potions when you still have 2/3 of your SP bar.

This. A thousand times this.

This is an issue in longer quests or quests with tough end/optional fights if the player/party is using divine hirleings for healing purposes.
Quests like elite into the deep with the Demon fight or elite mired in kobolds with Sinvala where you need most of the party healing resources at the end are sabotaged by hirelings drinking problems.

So far a workaround i use is to set them on passive for the whole quest and command them to heal/buff/whatever when needed and then turn them on defensive to make them chug when i want them to chug but this can lead to pretty bad situations in emergency cases.

Lower the threshold at which the hires feel the need to drink to 1/3 or 1/4 of their total spell points pool, this way there will be a lot less sp pots wasted when the shrine is around the corner or because they restore more sps than what the hireling used.

[Dagolar]

I just ask one thing from hirelings: Stop drinking SP potions when you still have 2/3 of your SP bar.

I'd ask that they stop aggroing through walls, stop breaking commands to do other things, stop ignoring commands, stop standing still in the middle of fights- not that it isn't somewhat amusing to watch them charge up to an enemy and then just stand there, et al.

But whatever we can get, I suppose.



I think this game would be greatly energized by allowing players to buy permanent gold seal hirelings in the DDO store.

This thread came out of a discussion on the general forum:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=392635

While I can't attest to how well it would or would not sell, your impressions of how people view Gold Seal hirelings (loathe to buy as is, but likely willing to spend 20x for permanent versions, perhaps to multiple purchases) matches the impressions I've gotten, as well as my own stance on the matter.
So far, the only Gold Seals I've used came free out of lotteries.

[btolson]

A threshold of 10% sp for potion quaffing should be sufficient in all but perhaps the lowest-level cases (a condition of < 10% of max sp or < 25 points should work). Hirelings don't use maximize or any other metamagics, so 10% should always guarantee they can cast any spell available to them (again, except maybe in the case of very low-level, low-sp hires, like bards, which the fallback conditional of < 25 points will cover).

[knockcocker]

Metamagic feats?

[Vellrad]

The only thing I care is adding heroic rogue hirelings to vendors.

Is that planned?

[My2Cents]

I'm very happy to see hirelings get some love - they're a unite and important part of my DDO experience.

I like almost all of the suggestions here. I'm on a limited budget and have to choose my hireling purchases carefully, but since I mostly (or often) solo due to life distractions I rely on hirelings for game enjoyment.

I can't afford $20/hireling but something that would allow me to keep gold seal hirelings permanently would really add a fun dimension to the game, and only making the purchasing decision rarely would stop the constant feeling that I have to spend spend spend and the budget anxiety that goes with it and trying to decide if i really need that hireling, then getting along without it and limiting my enjoyment.

Hirelings on Live:

- Casters -need- quicken!

- Do hirelings now have inherent resist fire/acid/elec/cold/etc? I can then spend more time running my alt barb, etc. and not having the hassle....

- Does it make sense to give us, the player a way to adjust how offensive a hireling is SP-wise (I.e. from Nuke Everything to super-conservative.) Different situations call for different approaches.

- I agree that they use their SP pots too quick, but I wouldn't want to wait till they get all the way to the bottom - that's like waiting to cure me until I'm too low on HP, in some situations that just means death.

- The hireling arcanes I have tried have so little HP and I am not clear how to buff them properly to keep them alive, so I rarely take them, they seem to go poof fast and with a few exceptions don't seem to deal enough DpS to be worth it. Maybe it's my game knowledge but that's my perception.

- When I need a res from an FVS hireling (or cleric), I need it right now, top priority.

- I miss quantity discounts in the store. I still have a few left from some of the sales from the old days (40% and 50%) since I used to like them so much.

- I'd love to be able to carry a second plat-bought hireling. I know everyone will immediately think that means I'll buy less gold seal contracts, but is that really true?

[Feather_of_Sun]

While we appreciate how passionate all of you are about hirelings, we'd appreciate if you could keep theorycrafting and speculation out of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is to gather details on how playing with hirelings feels currently on Lamannia.

To do so, please include the following with your post:

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used.
Your level.
The quest you ran.
The difficulty that quest was set to.
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.


Feedback presented without that information will not be taken into account. Thanks.

[Schmoe]

While we appreciate how passionate all of you are about hirelings, we'd appreciate if you could keep theorycrafting and speculation out of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is to gather details on how playing with hirelings feels currently on Lamannia.

To do so, please include the following with your post:

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used.
Your level.
The quest you ran.
The difficulty that quest was set to.
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.


Feedback presented without that information will not be taken into account. Thanks.

So feedback like "hireling X on Lammania really should have Quicken" is going to be ignored? That seems rather limiting.

[9Crows]

While we appreciate how passionate all of you are about hirelings, we'd appreciate if you could keep theorycrafting and speculation out of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is to gather details on how playing with hirelings feels currently on Lamannia.

To do so, please include the following with your post:

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used.
Your level.
The quest you ran.
The difficulty that quest was set to.
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.


Feedback presented without that information will not be taken into account. Thanks.





So feedback like "hireling X on Lammania really should have Quicken" is going to be ignored? That seems rather limiting.


think they just want the information organized so they can idenify problems more effiently and collate data better.

the last data request on F.o.S's list would be where you would put lack of x made hire y function poorly in z quest

[Krelar]

So feedback like "hireling X on Lammania really should have Quicken" is going to be ignored? That seems rather limiting.

If you actually run a quest with the hireling and give feedback specifically stating an example where having quicken would have improved the hirelings performance you would meet the criteria feather laid out.

[jakeelala]

Could you please consider adding some buffs to homunculus if you're buffing hirelings? They're useless after level 10 no matter what docent and collar you put on them.

[Gkar]

All hirelings now have a standardized package of defensive bonuses. This includes enhancement bonuses to every ability score, False Life, Protection, Resistance, Physical Resistance Rating, Natural Armor, Proof Against Poison/Disease, Blindness Immunity, Death Ward, and an Insight bonus to AC.

Of these, the bonuses that can scale do so as the hireling increases in level.

Melee hirelings use the defensive package equal to their level.
Rogues/bards use the package two levels lower.
Clerics/Favored Souls use the package three levels lower.
Sorcerers/Wizards use the package four levels lower.

As an example of how the stats scale:
Light Fortification from levels 1-5, Moderate from levels 6-10, and Heavy on 11+.
So a melee hireling gets Heavy Fortification at level 11, while a Sorcerer gains it at level 15.

You know that's backwards of what it needs right? If you have less HP you are more likely to look for fort and hp items

[Schmoe]

You know that's backwards of what it needs right? If you have less HP you are more likely to look for fort and hp items

This feedback will be ignored.

[My2Cents]

I am one of several who apparently misunderstood the nature of the thread. My apologies. I wish you the best of luck in your work.


While we appreciate how passionate all of you are about hirelings, we'd appreciate if you could keep theorycrafting and speculation out of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is to gather details on how playing with hirelings feels currently on Lamannia.

To do so, please include the following with your post:

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used.
Your level.
The quest you ran.
The difficulty that quest was set to.
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.


Feedback presented without that information will not be taken into account. Thanks.

[Scraap]

While we appreciate how passionate all of you are about hirelings, we'd appreciate if you could keep theorycrafting and speculation out of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is to gather details on how playing with hirelings feels currently on Lamannia.

To do so, please include the following with your post:

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used.
Your level.
The quest you ran.
The difficulty that quest was set to.
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.


Feedback presented without that information will not be taken into account. Thanks.

Ok, I'll bite. Took the one toon I had that might consider the things more than walking HP/SP pots stored at the door, and gave it an acid test.

Albus, l20 fvs.

Gaarddog-L20 pure SD. Forged, DR specced. (So a gimp rolled up explicitly to see how bad it was, and how much twinking it'd take to overcome the handicaps.)

Sins Of Attrition.

Elite.

Between Albus on agressive, a vampiric with cleave, a ring of master artifice, a GS regen item, and Levik's defender, without drinking a single pot, I pretty much couldn't die till Albus ran out of SP. he did so during the trash fight right after the table boss.

Honestly not sure that thing should have lasted that long on that difficulty.

[FranOhmsford]

Ok, I'll bite. Took the one toon I had that might consider the things more than walking HP/SP pots stored at the door, and gave it an acid test.

Albus, l20 fvs.

Gaarddog-L20 pure SD. Forged, DR specced. (So a gimp rolled up explicitly to see how bad it was, and how much twinking it'd take to overcome the handicaps.)

Sins Of Attrition.

Elite.

Between Albus on agressive, a vampiric with cleave, a ring of master artifice, a GS regen item, and Levik's defender, without drinking a single pot, I pretty much couldn't die till Albus ran out of SP. he did so during the trash fight right after the table boss.

Honestly not sure that thing should have lasted that long on that difficulty.

This is the propblem in a nutshell:

Those People on lamannia and on the Forums that the Devs are asking for views from are Elite Players - Not Elitists - Elite Players.

The Gimp bit is rubbish - Your gear more than made up for the WF issues as Melee and Albus is a Lvl 20 FavSoul - He should keep you healed - It's his job!

In my opinion the devs taking advice on hirelings from people who'd never even touch a hireling isn't exactly the way forward.

The truth will come out when these changes go live and the masses of us lesser player and newbies get our hands on the revamped Hirelings.

I don't mean to sound combative - I apologise if anything I've said came across the wrong way - I am not having a go at you personally.

[Spartywinz]

I don't group with players post level 11 that don't have heavy fort, why would I test a hireling you just told me doesn't have heavy fort until higher levels.

[SisAmethyst]

The purpose of this thread is to gather details on how playing with hirelings feels currently on Lamannia.

Hireling equipment at all levels has been updated. They should deal more damage in combat, and be a little more survivable (Within reason- these guys won't be soloing elite quests for you anytime soon).

Hireling ability scores have been redone. They progress much higher than they did previously.

Hirelings now have a high Concentration skill. Their spells will be interrupted far less (unless they get hit for a lot of damage in one hit).

To provide feedback, please include the following with your post:

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used.
Your level.
The quest you ran.
The difficulty that quest was set to.
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.


Feedback presented without that information will not be taken into account. Thanks.

I hadn't much issues with the stats of Hirelings except maybe the lack of Concentration on casters and I welcome this change. However as some others already stated, don't buff them too much to the degree that players prefer all of the time to zerg with a hireling through a quest instead of creating or joining a PUG.

Anyway, as said my main issue with hirelings aren't the stats but how they act. The Rogue hireling is always following 10 feet behind me and I actually have to stand directly infront of the trap box so that he can disarm it. That is especially painful in quests where the trap box is inside or behind the trap (e.g. Wiz-King, Lord of Dust). Even worse so if there is a lever close to the trap box, they sometimes pull that one instead to disarm, which may be fatal (e.g. The Claw of Vulkoor).

On the other hand most of the Clerics have the mindset of a Barbarian. Reverse to the Rogue they follow you directly at feet and may get cleaved all the time or even worse run off ahead to agro more monsters. If a trap is close they will run through it, to activate a bulk of mobs behind that hasn't noticed you yet, and then on the way back stand inside of the trap with the finger in the nose claiming they would need a heal soon.

What some hirelings understand under "passive mode" or "don't move" doesn't even come close to what I have in mind. Better stats and higher protection may prevent sudden death, but the major problem of the AI isn't solved by it. But I will try to give them a test drive and report back later...

[Scraap]

This is the propblem in a nutshell:

Those People on lamannia and on the Forums that the Devs are asking for views from are Elite Players - Not Elitists - Elite Players.

The Gimp bit is rubbish - Your gear more than made up for the WF issues as Melee and Albus is a Lvl 20 FavSoul - He should keep you healed - It's his job!

In my opinion the devs taking advice on hirelings from people who'd never even touch a hireling isn't exactly the way forward.

The truth will come out when these changes go live and the masses of us lesser player and newbies get our hands on the revamped Hirelings.

I don't mean to sound combative - I apologise if anything I've said came across the wrong way - I am not having a go at you personally.

No apologies necessary, and it is in fact the single biggest reason I explicitly asked what niche the devs feel the hirelings should fill regarding expected scaling impact, and whether the intent was for them to be an asset in situations weighted heavily in our favor due to scaling, or against. If the intent is to replace the healing aspect of a divine in a 6 party quest vs grabbing one for soloing, they may be about right, but I do feel that the scaling impact distorts their performance. (Also why I suggested absorption, since that scales no matter the party size.)

As to ground gear vs stopping over to grab the henchie, I'd honestly say that the 1k-ish plat was the better investment given that scenario, and that just feels wrong, on several levels.

As to never touching a hireling beyond a lever-puller, area guardian (say, auto-healing kobolds, or the defense missions, or two rooms back for spot-healing), or secondary shrine, that comes from years of them putting themselves in positions where they're more of an active detriment than an asset, so I've simply come to cope with the issues, and hiding that I do so would distort the perception of the feedback.

[Demonnik-TR]

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used. - all levels all the clerics
Your level. - 1-20 I solo when i don't like the lfms that are up
The quest you ran.-tear of dhakaan elite , ritual sacrifice elite - the portal opens epic hard
The difficulty that quest was set to.-hards/normal/elite
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.
I want 2 changes to healing hirelings
1. spell slot 1-Freedom of Movement / spell slot 2. Deathward / spell slot 3. Curative (serious/heal/heal mass)/ spell slot 4. Raise dead

change #2
apply quicken to mass heal


if they are too low to have the spells named then do whatever
AI can be managed most of the time to avoid running off
Most divines in the game carry FoM and deathward because they are the 2 most important buffs divines can get (imo) so please give them to hirelings

[Saravis]

1. Albus, Favored Soul, Level 20
2. Level 23
3. House of Broken Chains
4. Epic Hard
5. The hireling was in defensive mode. The hireling would prioritize attacking mobs over healing. Often times after the hire was fighting and losing considerable hp, it would just stand there doing nothing despite its health being under 50%. If there was a mob that was attacking from range, the hire would attempt to run off to attack it, causing the scripting to get confused if the hire couldn't reach its target. It would run through traps to attack a mob even if the player was being attacked and needed healing. If the hire was put on "stand still", it would still attempt to run off to attack a mob. It would waste SP with searing lights that did little damage. It would attack dazed mobs, un-dazing them.

[Bernaise]

If I recall correctly, part of the reason Hirelings don't have active Metamagic is that they aren't supposed to replace player characters on harder difficulties (Elite/Epic). Sorry "Player X", we don't need you because we have a hireling is not a great way to maintain your player base.

Didn't want to get off track on the purpose of this thread, but I saw a number of questions/comments that related to my above statement. So whether you agree or not with the above should be left to another thread than this one (it's already getting spammy with unrelated comments).

[SisAmethyst]

To provide feedback, please include the following with your post:

The name, class, and level of the hireling you used.
- Aria Malignos (Bard, 19), Tatyana Carmani (Rogue, 19), Slash (Fighter, 19), Vilgo Ghostbreaker (Paladin, 20)
Your level.
- 20 Cleric, 20 Druid
The quest you ran.
- Rest Stop, Lost in the Swamp
The difficulty that quest was set to.
- Normal
How you felt the hireling performed in that content.
- They where ok, thou hard to notice any big different. But difficult to compare as those two quests aren't live yet. Good thing however was that they didn't dropped in HP like a fly in combat so at least from the Fortification it seem to work better now. On the other side I still miss a fair warning on the Bard when she start to sing. Usually we where just ran off when suddenly the song was played. As we both where on our caster characters we had chosen more melee oriented Hirelings, so I can't say anything regarding Concentration checks.

I would have preferred to test the mid levels (10-15), so will have to create a Vet-II character to test the Hireling at Level 7. May need to check if a Dev is only to boost me and my guildy to level 11-13 to try out Wizard King with the Hireling, and then report back...

[QuantumFX]

I decided to run my ranger through the Spinner of Shadows chain on Lammaland since I couldn’t actually copy over any of my characters that can get to Eveningstar. So, I decided to check out the new hirelings. I can tell that Feather_of_Sun made some changes. But, they’re so subtle that I can’t tell you exactly what changes were made.


The name, class, and level of the hireling you used. Mjolna, Cleric, 20
Your level. 20
The quest you ran. The Lords of Dust
The difficulty that quest was set to. Epic Casual
How you felt the hireling performed in that content. Something felt different about the hireling.


Screenshot:
http://my.ddo.com/quantumfx/wp-content/blogs.dir/7530/files/my-gallery/mjolna.jpg

[DoctorWhofan]

I decided to run my ranger through the Spinner of Shadows chain on Lammaland since I couldn’t actually copy over any of my characters that can get to Eveningstar. So, I decided to check out the new hirelings. I can tell that Feather_of_Sun made some changes. But, they’re so subtle that I can’t tell you exactly what changes were made.


The name, class, and level of the hireling you used. Mjolna, Cleric, 20
Your level. 20
The quest you ran. The Lords of Dust
The difficulty that quest was set to. Epic Casual
How you felt the hireling performed in that content. Something felt different about the hireling.


Screenshot:
http://my.ddo.com/quantumfx/wp-content/blogs.dir/7530/files/my-gallery/mjolna.jpg

THERE's my warsteed! I was wondering where it ran off to? Wants to be a hireling, eh?

[FranOhmsford]

I decided to run my ranger through the Spinner of Shadows chain on Lammaland since I couldn’t actually copy over any of my characters that can get to Eveningstar. So, I decided to check out the new hirelings. I can tell that Feather_of_Sun made some changes. But, they’re so subtle that I can’t tell you exactly what changes were made.


The name, class, and level of the hireling you used. Mjolna, Cleric, 20
Your level. 20
The quest you ran. The Lords of Dust
The difficulty that quest was set to. Epic Casual
How you felt the hireling performed in that content. Something felt different about the hireling.


Screenshot:
http://my.ddo.com/quantumfx/wp-content/blogs.dir/7530/files/my-gallery/mjolna.jpg

Uh excuse me but the only level 20 Cleric Hireling is Wyoh!

Who's this Mjolna when she's at home?
What's that Horse doing in the quest?
Things felt different to you? Well yes you weren't using Wyoh!

EDIT: I don't see a Hireling bar for Mjolna - Why not?

[DoctorWhofan]

Uh excuse me but the only level 20 Cleric Hireling is Wyoh!

Who's this Mjolna when she's at home?
What's that Horse doing in the quest?
Things felt different to you? Well yes you weren't using Wyoh!

EDIT: I don't see a Hireling bar for Mjolna - Why not?

Mjolna IS the horse...of course!

[FranOhmsford]

Mjolna IS the horse...of course!

Hirelings have a little symbol on their icon.
Hirelings do not have the Volume Symbol on their icon.

I'm calling Cow Droppings.

Mjolna is another player and the Horse is Photoshopped in.

[AlexMonk]

Wow feather, nearly 2 pages of posts (including this one) and only 3 post with actual feedback as you asked for it. I appologize for this post.

[49dae13]

Talonia lvl 4 rogue
lvl 3 4th life druid
the butchers path
elite
Had a problem getting her to use the int rune took several tries a a few min but she did finally use also used other hires but had no problems with them

[DoctorWhofan]

Hirelings have a little symbol on their icon.
Hirelings do not have the Volume Symbol on their icon.

I'm calling Cow Droppings.

Mjolna is another player and the Horse is Photoshopped in.

You are not fun.

[SisAmethyst]

Ok, we created two fresh level 7 character and went with a pulk of hirelings in Caged Trolls. The quests was taken with reason as it is a quick one that include traps, casters and skeletons. Further it is in the level range, even 1 level higher on Elite.
The name, class, and level of the hireling you used: Zaghar Everstar (FvS, 7), Olivia Whurgan (Rogue, 7), Flower (Cleric, 7), Syllix Giantbane (Fighter, 7)
Your level: Sorcerer (7), Paladin (7)
The quest you ran: Caged Trolls
The difficulty that quest was set to: Elite
How you felt the hireling performed in that content:
Everything goes smooth till we get in the room with the first Troll. I actually expected a mass suicide, but only Syllix ran into the acid trap and died. It seemed he try to get a pathing to follow upstairs to the lever.
A little bit further the Rogue found the first box without any issue and disabled it and the mobs around the corner where dispatched with ease. One remark, its a bit annoying that those mobs see you through the wall and come running around a S obstacle since the walls seem to be thin like paper with one of the recent updates.

As the box of the blade trap is on the other side we fixed our hirelings and placed them in zen-mode. Actually I forgot zen-mode for the FvS. Running through the trap I got hit once, so the Fvs ran off to throw me a heal and was promptly hit themself two times. It was close but I had the second do react and call the hireling to me and out of the blade.
FvS however only heal up to 60% which is ok, but for some strange reason Flower now decided to need to top off the FvS up to full and ran herself into the trap. This time it went to quick to react and we got the second *ding* in the quest.

The rest of the quest we did without further kills on our part.

Resume: despite the regular stupidity of Hirelings regarding traps and their crazy interaction with other hirelings (toping off a FvS and running in a blade, healing flame turrets, ...) they where ok and stats seem to fit a bit better. One can feel indeed a slight improvement of them. However as long as they take epilation baths in lava or play Suicide Commando its not worth much if they die a second later as they did before.

Still have to check if the Assassin/Acrobat Rogue Hirelings still dumped on skill points of Disable and Search. I don't expect them to manage the Cabal trap, but most of them weren't able to do regular boxes without issue. Will check out tomorrow if we can get to around level 12...

[valkyrie621]

1. hireling :klin and other healers
2 quests:servants of the overlord, house of rusted baldes, house c challenges, murder by midnight any with pools of lava or acid.
3. levels 19-23
Hireling priorities on heals seems to be pets and summoned creatures(to include turrets) prior to healing the person who is buying the contract and or other party members.
Hirelings will set off any trap especially ones that you have carefully avoided.
Hireling ran into a room of werewolves and became lunch
Does not understand the command STAY. Runs off to heal a pet, stands in pools of lava, runs offf down a hallway for no apparent reason. Says "I understand" then stands there like a lump and does nothing.
STAY should mean that they can turn around, defend them selves, heal you when you run by, but not move from the position that you locked them to, until you call them.
Hireling stands there and watches you die. After watchin you die refuses to raise you but instead goes off to heal a pet(panther etc).
Runs up to a lever that you have asked them to operate and then turns around and returns to you having done nothing.
Hirelings should immediatly teleport to you if you left them a ways back. Not run all the way to you by the easiest route.

Side note: I love the panthers but it would be really nice if they would not stand on the trap or item that I am trying to disable or pickup.
Also, panthers should not take up a spot within the group but should be as the Arti's dogs. A little extra perk for those that prepaid for the Underdark. When we run with a full group we can't use the panthers :-(

[Firewall]

Hirelings: Luna (lvl22 Epic FvS/Exalted Angel), Albus Gladwin (lvl20 FvS), Onyx Panther (lvl20 Ftr)
Quest: High Road (lvl 24 Wilderness Area)
My level: lvl22 Monk

Performance:

Luna: 472 HP, 2381 SP (on Live: 360 HP, 2149 SP)
Albus Gladwin: 494 HP, 2641 SP (on Live: 414 HP, 2438 SP)

Overall performance was good. The higher concentration skill seems to work fine. Both hirelings managed to cast their Mass Heals despite being attacked by two lvl 24 bandits. I still miss Mass Death Ward on at least one of the epic hirelings.

Why does the Epic lvl22 FvS hireling have less HP and SP than a lvl20 non-epic FvS hireling?

Obviously there were no changes made to the Onyx Panther.

[FranOhmsford]

Hirelings: Luna (lvl22 Epic FvS/Exalted Angel), Albus Gladwin (lvl20 FvS), Onyx Panther (lvl20 Ftr)
Quest: High Road (lvl 24 Wilderness Area)
My level: lvl22 Monk

Performance:

Luna: 472 HP, 2381 SP (on Live: 360 HP, 2149 SP)
Albus Gladwin: 494 HP, 2641 SP (on Live: 414 HP, 2438 SP)

Overall performance was good. The higher concentration skill seems to work fine. Both hirelings managed to cast their Mass Heals despite being attacked by two lvl 24 bandits. I still miss Mass Death Ward on at least one of the epic hirelings.

Why does the Epic lvl22 FvS hireling have less HP and SP than a lvl20 non-epic FvS hireling?

Obviously there were no changes made to the Onyx Panther.

Were these both YOUR Hirelings?

If Albus was Augmented and Luna wasn't I could see the HP differential definitely.
The SP Differential however is ridiculous - Isn't Luna Drow? Albus is Human - Even if they were the same Level I'd expect her to have more Spell Points - As she's 2 Lvls higher and he has 300 more SPs something is seriously out of order.

P.S. Does Albus now have Quicken?

[devilfunk]

I still miss Mass Death Ward on at least one of the epic hirelings.

^This!

Please consider giving a least one of the epic divines Death Ward, it's so silly that not a one has it.

[49dae13]

Andaro lvl 24 fvs
lvl 25 barb
End of the road
epic norm
andaro healed fine for most of quest but at traps would not heal

[btolson]

I apologize in advance for the length of this, hopefully someone tenacious will buckle down and read it through.

I did a test of a large number of hirelings, got at least one of each type in the 17-20 range.

I took them into Devil Assault, Level 18/Elite, which I chose for two mains reasons:
-it's very close to the hireling vendor
-I know I can solo it without hireling aid

The char I used was a level 20 paladin, level 1 epic, with level 2 Unyielding Sentinel. I use the Defender of Syberis PrE and ran sword & board (so, good defense, mediocre dps, limited self healing).

Some caveats to my observations below:
-my paladin aura is about as strong as it can be, so I may be overestimating hireling defenses by a bit
-I fully buffed the hires with all 5 types of energy resistance. I initially was going to try without resists on them to serve as a more universal test, but this quickly proved to be a very bad idea. Characters that can't buff their hires are definitely going to see them die to spell damage a whole lot faster than I did.

Since hirelings are worth 1/4 of a player for dungeon scaling purposes, the metric I held them to in my assessments was whether I felt their contribution was worth 25% that of a real player of that class/build.


INDIVIDUAL ASSESSMENTS

Slash (level 19 fighter, THF)
-Outcome: (FAILED)
-it survived a long time but damage contribution not so noticeable, less than 25% of a real kensai. He soaked up my limited healing which ultimately killed me just before the last boss appeared. (Side note: the AI governing low hp behavior seems really poor; he shouted for healing, quaffed a weak potion, and then just stood there doing nothing while waiting for the cooldown on his potions to end so he could quaff another, and another, etc.)
-Overall effectiveness: worse than if I just solo'd it with no hireling, as I would have saved all my healing for myself and not died.

Osrik Rivalis (level 18 rogue, acrobat)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 27 MINUTES)
-survived as long as the fighter, though needed more healing from me in the early parts. Slightly better dps most of the time (when sneak attacking), but not enough for me to really care. I let him die after the last shrine to avoid the earlier mistake and save my healing for myself, and thus completed.
-Overall effectiveness: marginally better than the fighter insofar as combat was concerned, worse than 25% of a real acrobat rogue.

Arnal Swartz (level 17 barb, THF)
-Outcome: (bugged out: I clipped through a pillar and got stuck, had to recall just before 2nd boss)
-damage on par with fighter, but needed way more healing. I would have needed to let it die towards the end like the rogue if the quest hadn't bugged out.
-Overall effectiveness: much worse than fighter, more than I would expect 2 levels to make.

Albus Gladwin (level 20 fvs, healbot)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 27 MINUTES)
-completion time the same as with the rogue, though it was nice not having to heal myself. Best so far, even though I don't need the healing it provides as my own is sufficient for completion. Only hireling to survive to see the completion thus far, which earned me an extra 5% xp.
-Overall effectiveness: I'd say he's definitely worth at least 25% of a player-controlled healbot, though a cleric might work better for that (wider variety of free condition cures).

Caraneth Myar (level 19 fvs, offensive caster)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 25 MINUTES)
-completion time improved by ~2 minutes, due to aoe and instant death. The first hireling to make a noticeable difference in killing stuff, although considering how mediocre my personal dps is I would have really liked to see more effectiveness in this area (she was certainly not worth 25% of a player controlled fvs's dps).
-Overall effectiveness: pretty good, as hirelings go, but offense could still be better without breaking anything.

Sinestra Elsindar (level 20 bard, warchanter)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 25 MINUTES)
-similarly quick completion time due to buffs being good (apparently haste + inspire courage == L19 favored soul). She didn't pull her own weight very well though, so she is little more than a buff bot (certainly not worth 25% of a real warchanter, even if you totally discount contributions like FoM, dim door, etc). Her healing was not sufficient on its own, I had to heal her and myself on a couple occasions: not having empower healing is bad when you rely on cure crit exclusively with no backup healing source (but then again this is a warchanter).
-Overall effectiveness: on a self-sufficent char roughly equivalent to the L19 fvs. On a non-self-sufficient char, likely would have resulted in death/failure.

Vilgo Ghostbreaker (level 20 pal, TWF)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 26 MINUTES)
-another slower completion, though his damage was more noticeable than other melees due to DR bypassing. His HP is and his defenses appeared moderately worse than the 19 fighter, because he needed a lot more healing (luckily he brings his own, which was mostly sufficient... he used lays but if he knows any paladin curing spells he certainly didn't like using those). He survived to see completion although he needed one of my lays.
-Overall effectiveness: better damage than any other melee type, likely due only to his DR breaking. Not quite enough self-healing for a non-healing char to use him. Inferior in all regards to the 19 fvs, and I wouldn't ever take it over the bard either.

Uma Stonefist (level 19 pal, S&B)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 27 MINUTES)
-slower again, trivial dps due to shield use and no DR breaking. Fair defenses and self healing which are roughly on par with Vilgo; the shield doesn't seem to do anything useful.
-Overall effectiveness: greatly inferior in all regards to both the 20 pal and the 19 fvs.

Wyoh (level 20 cleric, healbot)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 28 MINUTES)
-slowest completion yet, but this was expected due to long cooldown on her only killing ability, which put extra onus on my mediocre dps. Despite carrying a shield, her defenses don't seem to be better than the 19 fvs (she even died once, which surprised me). Condition cures were useful, though I can do that myself as well.
-Overall Effectiveness: brought way more healing to the table than I needed, and little else. Not an optimal pick unless you really need a super-duper-slow mass heal.

Kaylen (level 20 sorc, offensive caster)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 28 MINUTES)
-another very slow completion, due to repeated hireling deaths. Its dps while alive was inferior to that of the 19 fvs due to lower apparent spellpower (cometfall dice and horrid wilting dice are almost identical, yet the fvs's cometfall hits for ~200 whilst the sorc's wilting only hits for ~150). This lower damage also hurts its mana efficiency, and it ran out of sp potions before the first shrine. Hireling was alive for about 70% of the quest; it missed all the parts that really counted and would have sped things up.
-Overall Effectiveness: universally worse than L19 fvs, worse than the L20 paladin & bard, slightly worse than even the fighters/barbs/rogues unless you have a lot of healing to throw at it. Put another way: the worst. Not even remotely 25% of a player sorc.

Namisa Korclaw (level 19 sorc, CC/offensive caster)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 28 MINUTES)
-very slow again, this is a CC sorc with lousy dps. Again, spell power looked too low, with meteor swarm physical component weighing in at ~15 per hit (pointing to ~50 total spellpower). Disco ball kept it alive better than the 20 sorc, but even with a lot of healing from me in the earlier parts it still died eventually and dancing did not contribute to faster completion. SP consumption on such weak spells was again a huge liability. It also liked to cast multiple concurrent disco balls on almost the exact same spot, wasting even more sp.
-Overall Effectiveness: useful if you must have CC

Ulga (level 20 wizard, offensive caster)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 28 MINUTES)
-slow again, hireling died again. Spell power just as low as the sorcs (identical weakness observed in meteor swarm). SP consumption even worse due to much lower max sp; she bottomed out her sp and just stood there tossing out an occasional magic missile.
-Overall Effectiveness: no point to use this over the fvs or the 20 pal.

Aria Malignos (level 19 bard, CC/spellsinger)
-Outcome: (FINISHED 27 MINUTES)
-mediocre completion time, worse than the other bard due to buffing me with a weak version of inspire courage and having no damage of its own (no weapons!?). Her healing was not sufficient on its own, same as the other bard. Its discoball was effective, though she does not autocast it (must click from hotbar) and she failed to successfully complete the long cast about half the time for some reason (conc or AI glitch, not sure, but this is the only hireling I noticed such common spell failure with).
-Overall Effectiveness: the ostensibly better option for CC, since overall contribution (read: buffs) is better than what the sorc offered. Rampant spell failures holds it back though.



I also let some low level hires loose in kobold assault (normal) and mid-level hires loose in kobold assault (elite) and observed them for a while to confirm that the relative dps, healing, and gearing trends between classes hold at all levels.



GENERAL CONCLUSIONS


-TWF and THF Fighter/Barb/Pal hires have pretty good raw, per-hit damage now, and nice hp/defenses. They are much closer to where I'd actually use them over a caster hire (on a healing toon), but are still not good enough (more on this below).



-Sword and board melee hires are still not even close. Damage is quite low (about 50% compared to their thf and twf counterparts), and the shields don't seem to offer them any practical benefit. Couldn't notice any difference in survivability or aggro management, and they don't know how to actively block to take advantage of the active DR or special attack evasion so... not sure what their shields could be offering to be worth such a huge damage tradeoff.

Suggest giving them stronger weapons of the Dwarven Axe/Bastard Sword varieties so they can get glancing blows and strong shields that can proc free bashes to lessen the dps loss. Also, some tangible bonus to defense (50% of the active DR as passive DR?) or regen or auto-taunt or something worthwhile. Otherwise take away their shields and make them TWF/THF.



-None of the melee hires I looked at appeared to have any DR bypassing capability, with the exception of the L20 paladin who was able to bypass DR of x/good presumably due to the paladin capstone.

This is a big deal for hirelings whose main/only purpose is dealing melee damage: losing such a big chunk of their efficacy due to DR which is highly prevalent in so much content really guts them and essentially undoes the work you've recently done to make them more viable.

I think every barb, fighter and paladin hireling should be able to break at least one type of DR, many should break two. Breaking /good due to simply tacking on Pure Good or Righteousness to their weapon should be relatively common. Many should have weapons of the Cold Iron or Adamantine, etc variety. A select few should gain Metalline or Aligned, and maybe choose one upper level hireling to gain both affixes and name him the ultimate DR-breaker hireling.

Put this weapon affix information into the hireling contract description as an addendum to their skillset, so we can easily choose the appropriate melee hire depending on the content we are doing and its relevant DR. Also describe their weapon type; blunt vs slashing makes a big difference in many places. Shield usage should appear here as well.

I'd say to give hirelings multiple weapons and swap between them as the situation demands (like a player would), but I'm willing to bet this is a lot more effort than anyone wants to make both in item creation and configuring AI.



-Overall melee hireling DPS is still too low. Even though most of them now hit nicely hard against solitary targets with no DR, they make no use of combat abilities such as cleave or divine sacrifice on their own. Realistically, I am never going to micromanage them to the point of telling them to use these abilities every time they should be, especially when you take into account the typically poor responsiveness of clicking on their hotbar abilities.

Melee hirelings should auto-cast abilities like cleave and divine sacrifice, as these are (near) infinite in usage and have short cooldowns. I'd say all fighters and some barbs/pals should be given cleave behind the scenes (ala cure disease/curse/etc for divines), some could also get great cleave or supreme cleave and auto-cast those as well. They definitely need to do more than just auto-attack the nearest thing in order to be seriously considered over other hireling types.

They should *not* auto-cast highly limited abilities (smite evil) or highly tactical abilities whose timing is important (trip, stunning blow).

Melee hireling DPS is also low due to lack of weapon affixes such as vorpal, banishing, greater banes, corrosive salt and other nifty stuff, as well as a lack of gear enhancements such as seeker, sneak attack bonus for flanking, manslayer, ethereal, true seeing, and more, but this is OK -- players should retain these bonuses exclusively.



-Many Wizards and Sorcerers have their relevant spellpower categories set much too low. This renders them generally useless compared to Favored Souls. Setting their base spell power equal to that of a player should not be a problem: they still do not make use of metamagics for more power and efficiency, nor do they target their spells intelligently for maximum benefit, none of them have SLAs which have become the cornerstone of many player builds, and they love using spells that most players rarely touch for one reason or another. There remain a plethora of gearing, speccing, spell selection and AI shortfalls that will prevent them from being worth more than 25% of a real player, even with equivalent base spell power.



-Favored Soul, Cleric and Bard hirelings have very competitive base healing spell power relative to what a player would have. However, they have much weaker (~50%) offensive spell power. I was not very impressed with the numbers from Fire Storm and Cometfall on the offensively-oriented casters. Bringing offensive spell power on par with their healing spell power shouldn't be an issue, because they will still be lacking the options and intellect of a real player.



-The lack of empower healing is very noticeable on bards, though I am not a proponent of granting them this feat. Giving them secondary healing spells (cure serious/moderate/light to compliment their current cure crit/serious/moderate) that they can autocast could ease this shortcoming, so that they are not ruled by a single cooldown when things get tough.



-The weapons granted to many hirelings are strange. Most bards wield a single 1-hander, without a buckler or anything else in their other hand, and many favored souls are in a similar boat. At least one bard had no weapons at all. Wizards and sorcs also have no weapons. This is visually boring.

Warchanter bards should get 2-handers to better pull their weight in combat. They should be relatively close in raw per-hit damage to other melee hires, but should *not* get any DR breaking capability nor cleave nor tacticals, so they will always be inferior in combat especially against crowds or where DR is prevalent.

Spellsinger/Virtuoso bards could use a 1 hander and a buckler. Even if they don't know how to actively block, the visual change would be much appreciated... seeing them charge into combat with nothing but a single 1-hander just bothers me immensely. Alternatively, switch them to bows/crossbows.

Favored Souls should also get one of the above treatments, with sword & orb being a valid (and new) option as well. Again, even if its just visual it's still an improvement.

Wizards and sorcs can have staffs, or sticks/daggers/wands & orbs. These items don't really have to do anything except maybe glow pretty colors.

As an addendum to this, perhaps giving slings/bows/crossbows/returners to healbot hires would solve some of their AI glitches: if they can pew-pew from a distance there's no need to charge into combat and get so confused... maybe?



One last note on DPS contributions: considering my dps is in the lower end of the spectrum, when I group a pure dps player I expect to be totally outclassed. When I group a pure dps hireling, I expect that they can provide 33-50% of my personal contribution. Currently this is not the case for even the best hires (offensive fvs).


Well, that's it. Hopefully someone read this novel, it took hours to research ^_^

[Firewall]

Were these both YOUR Hirelings?

If Albus was Augmented and Luna wasn't I could see the HP differential definitely.
The SP Differential however is ridiculous - Isn't Luna Drow? Albus is Human - Even if they were the same Level I'd expect her to have more Spell Points - As she's 2 Lvls higher and he has 300 more SPs something is seriously out of order.

P.S. Does Albus now have Quicken?

Yes both were my hirelings and were summoned one after the other without Augment Summoning or something like that. No idea where the difference comes from but as you can see it already exists on the live servers.
It didn't look like they have Quicken. Casting time of Mass Heal was as long as ever.

[49dae13]

Luna lvl 22 fvs
Rovegar lvl 21 fighter
Lyvwen lvl 22 wizard
Mussassama lvl 22 rogue
Sledge lvl 22 barbarian

lvl 20 arti WF

The Servants of the Overlords

Epic norm

For the most part hires did a good job, but Luna would not heal Sledge he stayed around 300 HP ( has over 900) most of quest unless I cast reconstruct on him only time Luna would heal him is when she mass healed group

[49dae13]

Tavlov lvl 24 Ranger
Iessin lvl 24 r\Rogue
Andaro lvl 24 Fvs
Boltha lvl 24 Wizard
Sadiele lvl 23 Fighter

lvl 25 Barbarian Halfling

The High Road and all 5 quest inside

The High Road- epic normal
The 5 quest-epic hard

Performance was above average but still have the same problems with following and running off at times.
Need to add Quicken spell to Andaro. Also have found that the healers wont heal you if in a trap.
Was wondering why Tavlov has Stay Frosty when he is a TWF and does not use ranged weapons.
Also wonder why not only Boltha but the other 2 wizards lvl 22 and 23 dont carry some kind of scepter or weapon it is funny to watch them throw punches but seems kindof pointless.