Epic Elite?

[Hsoftl]

Does anyone agree that EE is a little over done? I mean, do you really need a raid tank for almost every quest? When mobs hit 250, it seems a little ridiculous, and especially with EH being so easy, very frustrating. What ive been finding with elite, is that what counts as "tactics" in DDO, really jsut amounts to exploiting AI stupidity, and its getting really frustrating, because while i would like a completion just as much as anyone else, i dont really want to sit on a torch for 30 minutes and throw my noxious fang at the boss. It seems a little exsessive that you need a raid tank complete almost any EE dungeon, and especially with PUG grp ppl being so clueless, using jump spots or AI glitches to kill a green dragon. The bosses arent too bad, but some are a little exessive in the DPS, but mainly it seems that the mob damage out put is insane. When spiders do 150 average, it gets pretty frustrating

[krtkoo]

if you need a raid tank for epic elite quests you are doing something wrong.

[Moltier]

You dont need a raid tank. What you need is some kind of cc, and a meatbag if there is a heavy hitting boss.

Pugs are clueless because EH is so easy and forgiving.

Some EE quests are actually pretty easy (like most eberron flag quests).

[sirgog]

You dont need a raid tank. What you need is some kind of cc, and a meatbag if there is a heavy hitting boss.

Pugs are clueless because EH is so easy and forgiving.

Some EE quests are actually pretty easy (like most eberron flag quests).

This. Most bosses don't really even need a tank if you are in synergistic destinies (if everyone's in off-destinies then you will need to tank many bosses carefully and might specifically want evasion tanks in some places)

The big issue is that if EE is too hard for you then there's no medium difficulty to practice tactics on, just one hard difficulty and three easy ones.

[Innara]

Like I said in another thread, what is needed is a boost to EH. It's so easy in comparison, it's not funny. the power creep between EN-EH-EE needs to be balanced.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I always swap to a level 5+ destiny for EEs and only use 2 toons out of my 4. Both of these toons have close to max gear.

We generally don't pug EE quests, they're guild or channel runs. That said, quite a few of our guild members are casual players or are serious players with serious altitis so most EE quests usually have 2-4 characters at similar stages to described above and 2-4 that have average gear but are played at least by attentive, cooperative players.

We don't look to build specific parties. We've done EEs with no casters, no healers etc etc. EE DQ1 last week for instance had my archer and a monk to provide CC and the quest went smoothly (until the boss fight but those disjunction balls and the associated lag just made it atrocious, really difficult without a dedicated tank).

[blerkington]

Hi,

I don't agree that EE is overdone, but quests at that difficulty can be pretty awful without if you don't use tactics and treat it with some respect.

If you have a decent caster, healer and a melee who can stun or assassinate, most six-person EE quests become just a matter of handling the bosses.

Thanks.

[zwiebelring]

Does anyone agree that EE is a little over done? I mean, do you really need a raid tank for almost every quest? When mobs hit 250, it seems a little ridiculous, and especially with EH being so easy, very frustrating. What ive been finding with elite, is that what counts as "tactics" in DDO, really jsut amounts to exploiting AI stupidity, and its getting really frustrating, because while i would like a completion just as much as anyone else, i dont really want to sit on a torch for 30 minutes and throw my noxious fang at the boss. It seems a little exsessive that you need a raid tank complete almost any EE dungeon, and especially with PUG grp ppl being so clueless, using jump spots or AI glitches to kill a green dragon. The bosses arent too bad, but some are a little exessive in the DPS, but mainly it seems that the mob damage out put is insane. When spiders do 150 average, it gets pretty frustrating
Sirgog indicated the biggest issue already. There is no learning curve from enorm to ehard. Enorm and ehard correlate but in general are still easy. Proper design was to establish a tactic in ehard other than brute forcing and modify this by elite circumstances. But that isn't possible so you start with what you did in ehard. Eeilte is just nothing you can adapt to slowly. result is a big amount of trial and error and that is the worst design for me ever.

Enorm + ehard = brute forcing like the good'ol days

Eelite = fail on anything you had known before. Frustration arises since you don't know if it is you who suck, the quest design which sucks, the other people who suck..... You might die so fast you cannot even establish an evaluation of your actions.

You do not need a *tank* but you definately need a way to bind mobs, aka crowd control. May it be a tank or a DC heavy caster. Try again without brute forcing. Treat trash as it was no trash. Then you should be fine.

- edit -
On the other hand I don't know how it feels for people on comparable lower gear setups. I have many endgame items at the moment and I am profitting(?) from a vast pool of ressources. Others might find ehard still appropriate for its indication. So I am a bit careful by claiming something to be *overtoned* or *too easy*.

[Cetus]

A good healer, and a high HP high DPS toon with the proper defenses, i.e. incorporeality, displacement clickies, dodge %, and a bit of prr in a cloudkill is fine.

[Ape_Man]

Some (not that many) of the mobs/bosses hit way too hard and that needs to be toned down. When mobs/bosses hit for 300-500, sometimes in rapid succession, the best tactics are the lame ones we used to use in old epics when we sucked. Anything that encourages lame tactics should be removed from the game.

Other than that, it's fine for level 25s who are on -destiny and played by good players.

[Ape_Man]

. . .what counts as "tactics" in DDO, really jsut amounts to exploiting AI stupidity . . .

This is right on the money. The "tactics" in DDO is nothing more than that.

[Bergie]

As most mentioned, just dont try zerg it in a pug...epic elite is not difficult by any stretch...it is VERY doable, but you need to slow down a bit...must haves, or at least I like to have, is as mentioned many times before...great CC and good heals...also your melee should be decent...not the cry-baby types that keep shouting "heal me" "heal me"...if they cannot or dont want to build a toon to handle epic elite, ie either AC, PRR, DISPLACE clickies, SF pots, etc etc...they have no right to be in there, and deserve to die...

Also, remember a lot of divines, or at least I have found, solo the epic elites, as with dungeon scaling I have found it MUCH easier to solo them sometimes...

But yes, Sirgog hit the nail spot-on on the head...Hard difficulty needs a bump for people to practice on...

Also, one guy mentioned, he does not take all his toons into epic elite...same with me...out of my 3 capped toons, my FvS is the only one remotely geared enough for it...the rest simply lack the gear...

[Kmnh]

EE is too easy. We need the epic wards back so EiN doesn't autocomplete the quests.

[Zerkul]

Some raid tanks can solo a good part of EE content :) .

[Ape_Man]

EE is too easy. We need the epic wards back so EiN doesn't autocomplete the quests.

Considering the DCs needed to reliably land insta-kills in EE . . . do you consider all insta-kills to be too much or just EiE?

[zwiebelring]

Some raid tanks can solo a good part of EE content :) .
And what should that tell the people who think eelite is too difficult?

[Ape_Man]

And what should that tell the people who think eelite is too difficult?

there's a huge difference between thinking "EE is too difficult" and thinking "some of the mobs/bosses in EE hit so hard that the best course of action is to use lame tactics."

Look at the Dragon in EE don't drink the water. Extremely difficult to melee, but a joke to handle with casters/ranged.

The drizz't looking mook in Lords of Dust . . . again lame tactics win the day here.

In the above two encounters yes both can be beaten with just beating them down and healing through it but is that in anyway a smart idea when there are much smarter alternatives?

And please don't insult the word "tactics" by calling perching and kiting tactics.

[Impaqt]

And what should that tell the people who think eelite is too difficult?

That some people play on a completely different level than the "norm"?

[Bergie]

This is right on the money. The "tactics" in DDO is nothing more than that.

Hmmm...so BB kiting, cleverly placed firewalls, invisi-running, having a main tank, aggro management, good CC, balanced party make-up...the list goes on and on and on...this is all stupid exploits/dumb AI in your opinion?

If so, why are some people still complaining epic elites are too difficult? BASIC game tactics, and not exploits, goes A LOOONG way towards making quests a lot easier...

[Ape_Man]

Hmmm...so BB kiting, cleverly placed firewalls, invisi-running, having a main tank, aggro management, good CC, balanced party make-up...the list goes on and on and on...this is all stupid exploits/dumb AI in your opinion?

Yes, with the exception of what was bolded.

And I do all of the above. I play a BBing Cleric, a wizard, a 107 Intimidate Stalwart, etc . . . I do all of the above as well as perch in spots where I cannot get hit back and hit targets with ranged/spells when it is "tactically" appropriate.

It is lame that "tactics" like that, exploiting the pathetically stupid AI, is the best course of action.



If so, why are some people still complaining epic elites are too difficult? BASIC game tactics, and not exploits, goes A LOOONG way towards making quests a lot easier...

Learn to comprehend what you read.

I'm complaining that the "tactics" needed to best EE content are lame. I'm not complaining that EE is too difficult. In 95% of EE content you do not have mobs hitting for ridiculous amounts, it's only a few encounters that should be tweaked.

[Hendrik]

The problem is that EH does not prepare anyone for the difficulty faced on EE.

[Chai]

The problem is that EH does not prepare anyone for the difficulty faced on EE.

Heroic elite also doesnt prepare people for epic elite. The other difficulties feel about the same. EN feels like HN, EH feels like HH, but HE doesnt prepare folks for EE.

A newer player who ran most of the heroic stuff on elite might expect epic content on elite to be similar, and they are in for a rude awakening.

[Bergie]

Yes, with the exception of what was bolded.

It is lame that "tactics" like that, exploiting the pathetically stupid AI, is the best course of action.


But if kiting etc is a bad tactic, then MANY spells will be made obsolete...no more BB, no more firewall, etc...if the mobs have awesome AI it will be impossible to find a use for MANY spells...

Lets dot a mob...he thinks..hmmm dotted with some elemental dmg..lets swap to an absorp item, cast resists on myself, and some prot form elements while I am at it...then as i am outnumbered, I am going to haste myself and run like hell from these crazy dudes trying to kill me...sure, although it could be fun, and also rather funny in some weird way, it will take MUCH longer for people to run stuff, and not everyone has 1.5 hours to spend in every quest...

But yes, I do agree, that some, not all, AI could be bettered some...I am also not a fan of the "run to safe-spot and range" tactic...

[Ape_Man]

But if kiting etc is a bad tactic, then MANY spells will be made obsolete...no more BB, no more firewall, etc...if the mobs have awesome AI it will be impossible to find a use for MANY spells...

20+ years of PnP D&D and I cannot recall a monster ever dying from a Firewall or a Blade barrier. it's the dumb AI in DDO that makes them effective weapons.

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking it's anything else.

By I accept the fact that this game needs to have AI dumb enough to be strangled with a cordless phone in order for it to work with modern PCs, connections, game-engines, etc . . .

But let's not kid ourselves into thinking we're briliant because we can out-smart AI that didn't learn that valuable life-lesson from Tropic Thinder.

The dumb AI is the reason for the massive HP inflation compared to PnP where the monsters work by the same set of rules as we do.



Lets dot a mob...he thinks..hmmm dotted with some elemental dmg..lets swap to an absorp item, cast resists on myself, and some prot form elements while I am at it...then as i am outnumbered, I am going to haste myself and run like hell from these crazy dudes trying to kill me...sure, although it could be fun, and also rather funny in some weird way, it will take MUCH longer for people to run stuff, and not everyone has 1.5 hours to spend in every quest...

Inflated mob HPs exist because they are incredibly stupid. If mobs didn't need to be so incredibly stupid (from the above mentioned PC/engine limitations) they would not need as many HP to present a threat.



But yes, I do agree, that some, not all, AI could be bettered some...I am also not a fan of the "run to safe-spot and range" tactic...

Then why aren't you for some minor alterations to a few encounters so this is no longer a best practice?

[Chai]

But if kiting etc is a bad tactic, then MANY spells will be made obsolete...no more BB, no more firewall, etc...if the mobs have awesome AI it will be impossible to find a use for MANY spells...

Lets dot a mob...he thinks..hmmm dotted with some elemental dmg..lets swap to an absorp item, cast resists on myself, and some prot form elements while I am at it...then as i am outnumbered, I am going to haste myself and run like hell from these crazy dudes trying to kill me...sure, although it could be fun, and also rather funny in some weird way, it will take MUCH longer for people to run stuff, and not everyone has 1.5 hours to spend in every quest...

But yes, I do agree, that some, not all, AI could be bettered some...I am also not a fan of the "run to safe-spot and range" tactic...

Its the melee AI in this game that is horrid.

Games like EQ made in 1999 have better AI. Examples.

If your HP reached a point where you were under 1/4 your health, all mobs stopped what they were doing and came after you until your HP was restored to more than 1/4. You were deemed vulnerable and they saw a quick opportunity to kill of your toon.

Many of those games also had "heal threat" and "buff threat" - a tank that does mediocre DPS can only be healed so often by the same cleric before the mob wants to crush the cleric.

If "humanoid" or "intelligent" mob HP reached less than 1/4 the mob ran. Players wanted to make sure they had mobs locked down with a snare spell, especially in dungeons, because a mob with aggro who runs past an inactive mob transfers that aggro onto the players who harmed it.

The AI differential is one of the things that separates RWtD from alot of other quests, because most of the mobs are caster AI. They dont just run fast an turn left through persistent AOE like melee AI does. They will still waltz into crowd control when they dont have LoS on PCs however. Mobs with strong ranged casting capabilities seem to be some of the strongest mobs in the game offensively, in part because they cant just be kited through blade barriers without returning fire. When their damage can only be blocked by a few specific items in the game which need to be farmed to obtain, it makes the quest far more challenging than another elite quest of the same level.

[Kmnh]

Considering the DCs needed to reliably land insta-kills in EE . . . do you consider all insta-kills to be too much or just EiE?

They are all still too much.

Dropping a symbol of death and kiting the mobs around it a few times before wail/circle is a lot easier than actually fighting them. What's the point of a drow that hits for 200 damage if it never gets close enough to land a hit?

[Ape_Man]

They are all still too much.

Dropping a symbol of death and kiting the mobs around it a few times before wail/circle is a lot easier than actually fighting them.

A valid point, but even the AoE insta-kills now have limits to how many mooks they can get at a time.

But this was nothing to do with death spells, arcane/divine casters were doing this long before the deathward was removed. The AI is just ********, with the best practices (some will call them "tactics") being to take advantage of the dumb AI whenever possible.



What's the point of a drow that hits for 200 damage if it never gets close enough to land a hit?

Turbine's most likely response to this is to increase the damage to 400/swing :) Making melee even more impractical and kitting the only real option. Sigh . . .

Mobs need to make more trip attempts on caster, grapple them, etc. I'm just not sure what the AI is capable of doing.

[Vellrad]

There is something in EE I don't like:
My TRed wizard with decent gear and ED is doing much, much less than my bard/figther.
On wizard, I need to get past SR, then mobs must fail save, which is really rare (+36 spell pen, 49DC).
But bard is almost always hitting on 2s.

[Ape_Man]

Some raid tanks can solo a good part of EE content :) .

This is true, and I think you'll probably agree with me and don't take this as an insult if you don't, but it's because Silverflame pots are extremely powerful.

[Ape_Man]

There is something in EE I don't like:
My TRed wizard with decent gear and ED is doing much, much less than my bard/figther.
On wizard, I need to get past SR, then mobs must fail save, which is really rare (+36 spell pen, 49DC).
But bard is almost always hitting on 2s.

Your bard needs to stand next to the mob and risk getting hit to damage the mob. Wizards can do that from accross the room.

36 spell Pen and a 49 necro DC are very low on a TR'd wizard.

[LOOON375]

The same arguments could be made considering the old epic difficulty.

You truly aren't going to know what it takes until you actually run them.

Ive heard people mention that the old epic is somewhere between the new EH and EE. by that reasoning alone, if you could run the old epics, you are ready to move up into the EE realm.

One could make the argument, that with destinies and new easy to aquire super gear, that the new EE might be easier in some ways than the old Epic.

Does EH prepare for EE? Not anymore or any less than what was considered "preparing" for the old epic difficulty.

And if EH doesn't prepare one for EE, then what does? Or what is supposed to?

Back during the old epic difficulty, SOME people excluded non epic geared toons from their lfms, but you can't get epic gear without running epic content.

[Ape_Man]

Ive heard people mention that the old epic is somewhere between the new EH and EE. by that reasoning alone, if you could run the old epics, you are ready to move up into the EE realm. .

Wrong.



One could make the argument, that with destinies and new easy to aquire super gear, that the new EE might be easier in some ways than the old Epic.

And anyone making that argument would have no idea what he was talking about.

Gear on the upper-end of mediocre is easier to acquire, super gear is not.



Does EH prepare for EE? Not anymore or any less than what was considered "preparing" for the old epic difficulty.

The old way being dumb doesn't justify the new way being dumb.

Moving to an epic N/H/E setup was a great idea, scaling it with a huge jump in difficulty between EH and EE was not.



And if EH doesn't prepare one for EE, then what does? Or what is supposed to?

Trial and error. But in many cases people who were used to EH will just get curb-stomped and won't bother going back to EE.



Back during the old epic difficulty, SOME people excluded non epic geared toons from their lfms, but you can't get epic gear without running epic content.

You can now thanks to the AH. Most stuff is un-bound these days :)

And those people who excluded people from epic quests because they didn't have epic gear were idiots. I'm still wondering how that last phrase has anything to do with what we're talking about.

[LOOON375]

.

Wrong.



And anyone making that argument would have no idea what he was talking about.

Gear on the upper-end of mediocre is easier to acquire, super gear is not.



The old way being dumb doesn't justify the new way being dumb.

Moving to an epic N/H/E setup was a great idea, scaling it with a huge jump in difficulty between EH and EE was not.



Trial and error. But in many cases people who were used to EH will just get curb-stomped and won't bother going back to EE.



You can now thanks to the AH. Most stuff is un-bound these days :)

And those people who excluded people from epic quests because they didn't have epic gear were idiots. I'm still wondering how that last phrase has anything to do with what we're talking about.I can't mulit quote the way you did, so Ill reply to each point by number.

1) why is it wrong? I have seen that or similar opinions expressed all over the forums since MOTU launched regarding where the difficulty is.

As to your second sentence on the first point, NOBODY knew going into MOTU initially..... had any idea what to expect in regard to what would be required to be successful. Bad gear or good gear. Nobody knew. And one would assume that old epic runners were the first to run the new EE.

2) I have ran some of the new EE quests that I ran on the old epic difficulty, and some seem way easier because of the power of destinies. MY OPINION. And sure, it differs from quest to quest. So don't take this as me saying you are wrong. As far as the new epic content, there is nothing to compare it to in regard to the old epic difficulty. But some quests you can compare with the old epics.

3) Dumb? Really? You/anyone (figuratively speaking) will never know what it takes to run any old epic/new EE unless they just jump in and figure it out. The very first people that ran the first epics had to just jump in blindly, not knowing what to expect. The same with the new content. Was that dumb?

And I agree, the difference between EH and EE to too far apart.

4) "trial and error". You just supported what I was trying to convey previously. Nobody knows (knew when MOTU launched), regardless of toon, gear or player skill until they blindly jumped in and figured it out.

5) This has everything to do with this discussion. We had a small part of the community trying to dictate to the rest of the player base what was required or acceptable to run the old epics.

So Ill ask again since the bar has been raised: What is required, acceptable, or recommended for someone to dip their feet into the new EE? Im sure it will differ from person to person.

Im not asking for myself, Im asking for the readers that have no idea what to expect.

There's still too much "you don't belong" posts without an explanation as to why. And that isn't always enough. Based on what I read on the forums and was told in game before I started running the old epics, I should have never ventured into the old epics. "you are gimped", "you are a 28 pt build", "you don't have epic gear"

If being capable of running the old epics isn't enough to feel comfortable or be an acceptable marker to jump into the new EE, then what is?

You know what I think? It's just a matter of opinion and differs from one person to the next.

[Ape_Man]

I can't mulit quote the way you did, so Ill reply to each point by number.

I've got mad quoting-skills.




1) why is it wrong? I have seen that or similar opinions expressed all over the forums since MOTU launched regarding where the difficulty is.

I've completed every 6-man epic quest in the game excluding Wiz King at this point, I don't formulate my opinions from what other people say on the forums, I formulate them from my own experiences.

it's a numbers things, nothing more. EE reguires MOAR over the old epics. higher DCs are needed, more HP is needed, etc . . . or MOAR use of AI-exploitive "tactics."

Now saying toons/players that at level 20 were able to handle the hardest epics can now handle them at level 25 when on destiny with good twists I could agree with that. If that is what you meant then I misunderstood you.




As to your second sentence on the first point, NOBODY knew going into MOTU initially..... had any idea what to expect in regard to what would be required to be successful. Bad gear or good gear. Nobody knew. And one would assume that old epic runners were the first to run the new EE.

I'm trying to figuring how this has anything to do with what we were talking about.



2) I have ran some of the new EE quests that I ran on the old epic difficulty, and some seem way easier because of the power of destinies. MY OPINION. And sure, it differs from quest to quest. So don't take this as me saying you are wrong. As far as the new epic content, there is nothing to compare it to in regard to the old epic difficulty. But some quests you can compare with the old epics.

You've done some of the quests, I've done ALL of the quests. let me know if you are of the same opinion after you've done all of the quests on EE.

it does differ from quest to quest. Really the only ones where mob damage gets to be stupid on EE are the Demonweb, Don't Drink the Water, and maybe one or two others I can't remember off the top of my head.

I think even EE Lailat and Velah are reasonable in how hard they hit as a point of reference.



3) Dumb? Really? You/anyone (figuratively speaking) will never know what it takes to run any old epic/new EE unless they just jump in and figure it out. The very first people that ran the first epics had to just jump in blindly, not knowing what to expect. The same with the new content. Was that dumb?

yes, that was dumb. Much of old epics was dumb and using that to rationalize what's currently dumb now is fail.



And I agree, the difference between EH and EE to too far apart.

Then why are you arguing with me on the point above this?



4) "trial and error". You just supported what I was trying to convey previously. Nobody knows (knew when MOTU launched), regardless of toon, gear or player skill until they blindly jumped in and figured it out.

And it's dumb.

Difficulty should ramp up and not be an on/off switch. I know many who went into EE the first week, got curb-stomped, and haven't gone back.

Not everyone is as stubborn as us forum-monkeys. We're the kind of idiots who want to try to ice-skate uphill.



5) This has everything to do with this discussion. We had a small part of the community trying to dictate to the rest of the player base what was required or acceptable to run the old epics.

As the "rest" of us ignored them, started our own groups, and beat the content just the same.

I've never actually observed this myself though, different servers have different cultures.

Again, I'm at a loss for what this has to do with the topic of the thread. The gist of the OP's post and my replies is that SOME EE mobs/bosses need to be tweaked because they hit too hard and this leads to cheesy "tactics" becoming the best practice which leads to lame gameplay. If I'm misinterpreting the OPs opinion he can correct me.



So Ill ask again since the bar has been raised: What is required, acceptable, or recommended for someone to dip their feet into the new EE? Im sure it will differ from person to person.

Im not asking for myself, Im asking for the readers that have no idea what to expect.

This is a topic for another thread as this could delve down the rabbit-hole of "off topic" very quickly. Start a new one asking this question and I'm sure you'll get some grand pontification.



There's still too much "you don't belong" posts without an explanation as to why. And that isn't always enough. Based on what I read on the forums and was told in game before I started running the old epics, I should have never ventured into the old epics. "you are gimped", "you are a 28 pt build", "you don't have epic gear"

Much of the stuff posted in the forums for as long as I've been playing DDO has been flat out wrong.



If being capable of running the old epics isn't enough to feel comfortable or be an acceptable marker to jump into the new EE, then what is?

If you were level capable of beating something at level 20 then at level 25 when "on-destiny" if you cannot beat a quest the issue exists between the keyboard and the chair.



You know what I think? It's just a matter of opinion and differs from one person to the next.

The only valid test is combat.

Opinions don't matter. Results matter, numbers do not.

If you and you're group capable of beating a quest with the resources available to you? That's all that matters.

[samthedagger]

EE is ridiculous in two places, LoB and CitW. Aside from that, it is simply grindy. I have completed many EE quests with little real difficulty, but they are rarely worth the +1 bump to loot because the time to complete them, even with a good group, is vastly extended over EH. The main barrier to completion for EE is time. The mobs have so many hp, you just have to whack them over and over, usually three to four times as long as in EH. I can literally just sit there and click two or three buttons on most bosses. Raids involve a bit more, but not a whole lot. Lag is usually what kills people in raids (although I rarely experience it, it does seem to have an impact on other folks who probably either have their graphics settings too high or a poor quality internet connection).

I agree with the general consensus, which seems to be that EH needs a slight boost in difficulty, and EE needs a slight decrease in difficulty.

[Ape_Man]

EE is ridiculous in two places, LoB and CitW.

I didn't think EE LOB was that terrible, it felt like old Epic did when we were 20. I would like to see the intimidate requirements nerfed as 1089109?) is just nuts.

CiTW . . . I'll without commenting as I don't like that raid that much. i



Aside from that, it is simply grindy. I have completed many EE quests with little real difficulty, but they are rarely worth the +1 bump to loot because the time to complete them, even with a good group, is vastly extended over EH. The main barrier to completion for EE is time. The mobs have so many hp, you just have to whack them over and over, usually three to four times as long as in EH. I can literally just sit there and click two or three buttons on most bosses. Raids involve a bit more, but not a whole lot. Lag is usually what kills people in raids (although I rarely experience it, it does seem to have an impact on other folks who probably either have their graphics settings too high or a poor quality internet connection).

That's interesting, because I don't find the EE mobs HPs to be that bad.

You are right about the time issue and that EE is generally not worth the time. if you need XP or loot EH is the way to go, EE id for favor and fun.



I agree with the general consensus, which seems to be that EH needs a slight boost in difficulty, and EE needs a slight decrease in difficulty.

Regarding EE I just think SOME mobs/bosses need their damage outputs toned-down. The rest of it is fine.

[Sonos]

Your bard needs to stand next to the mob and risk getting hit to damage the mob. Wizards can do that from accross the room.

36 spell Pen and a 49 necro DC are very low on a TR'd wizard.

49 necro DC is low and not very low on a TR2 wizard. Just want to make that distinction.

In terms of EE it's low. In terms of EH it's still godly.

Edit: Since this is the literalnet, let me rephrase godly: more than enough.

[bibliomane]

It depends on what you are running. EH is a joke and a <my> nanny-bot cleric can solo most of them. I like that EE present a challange. I frequently short man them with and without arcane. Just learn the quests, figure out what works and hit them where it actually does hurt rather than running in and tanking--which usually does not work.

[Uma-Quixote]

Ran the Sentinels series on EE the other night and it was great.....like...epics used to be....actually felt.....

Epic.

Party was 22+ mostly tr's...but couldn't just zerg it, we had to stick together as a group, fight as a group, use the same tactics we used to a few months ago.

Essentially it means you have to concentrate on what the party is doing instead of just romping through on epic hard.
Made a very pleasant change.

[Vellrad]

Ran the Sentinels series on EE the other night and it was great.....like...epics used to be....actually felt.....

Epic.

Party was 22+ mostly tr's...but couldn't just zerg it, we had to stick together as a group, fight as a group, use the same tactics we used to a few months ago.

Essentially it means you have to concentrate on what the party is doing instead of just romping through on epic hard.
Made a very pleasant change.

I entered epic elite.
All the DC50 spells didn't worked at all, and negative levels was gone almost immidiately.
Haste, rage, watch all other having fun is so great cooperative play...

[Llewndyn]

Your bard needs to stand next to the mob and risk getting hit to damage the mob. Wizards can do that from accross the room.

36 spell Pen and a 49 necro DC are very low on a TR'd wizard.

Im not trying to start a flame war here, just wondering, 49 didn't seem to bad to me but I am new to the world of casters who matter (bard is the closest I got)... If you could break it down?

Things that don't count:

Litany - I know exactly 0 people that have that
+3/ +4 tomes - Ridiculous to EXPECT these on any character, some of us don't have the time to farm for 2 months to get an item to eke out a tiny fraction more worth

I am running my first wizard life (completionist so total life number 6) and mine aren't a lot higher than his are so I am wondering how your wizard and others wizards stack up to where having a 49 necro DC is really low and the norm is supposed to be higher? Because if so I don't think I have EVER seen a "Decent" wizard/ caster period. 48 buffed INT and took all the spell pen feats I could while still taking toughness and elemental damage/ stuff needed for PRE and I doubt my necro spells hit that high, though my spell pen is higher (by a tiny bit (is that even possible? (I like nested parenthesis (no I don't) because they are fun) I mean for my first wizard life) and by tiny bit I mean less than 5 more)

If you were just talking out of your ass, disregard my post and carry on :D

PS - Hsoftl - I have run with you and your cleric buddy and you are both great players. I agree with you, for the record. I will bring my 7 CON Drow wizard and tank whenever you want :D

[Vordax]

+3/ +4 tomes - Ridiculous to EXPECT these on any character, some of us don't have the time to farm for 2 months to get an item to eke out a tiny fraction more worth


+3 tomes are easy to acquire now, I have pulled about 8 out of the MOTU quests so far, and I don't play that much anymore, or 500-600k plat on the AH, if you can't afford one of those by level 25, your doing something wrong. +4's are definitely more rare though.

[LOOON375]

Im not trying to start a flame war here, just wondering, 49 didn't seem to bad to me but I am new to the world of casters who matter (bard is the closest I got)... If you could break it down?

Things that don't count:

Litany - I know exactly 0 people that have that
+3/ +4 tomes - Ridiculous to EXPECT these on any character, some of us don't have the time to farm for 2 months to get an item to eke out a tiny fraction more worth

I am running my first wizard life (completionist so total life number 6) and mine aren't a lot higher than his are so I am wondering how your wizard and others wizards stack up to where having a 49 necro DC is really low and the norm is supposed to be higher? Because if so I don't think I have EVER seen a "Decent" wizard/ caster period. 48 buffed INT and took all the spell pen feats I could while still taking toughness and elemental damage/ stuff needed for PRE and I doubt my necro spells hit that high, though my spell pen is higher (by a tiny bit (is that even possible? (I like nested parenthesis (no I don't) because they are fun) I mean for my first wizard life) and by tiny bit I mean less than 5 more)

If you were just talking out of your ass, disregard my post and carry on :D

PS - Hsoftl - I have run with you and your cleric buddy and you are both great players. I agree with you, for the record. I will bring my 7 CON Drow wizard and tank whenever you want :DI also would like to know how a 49/50 range DC is waaaay too low.

Im curious as to how "much higher" DC's are being reached.

Ive got a second life drow PM wizzy with max intell (50/52-- higher with certain buffs) and am barely hitting 50 enchant with one bard past life. I maxed out the magister DC school as well. Now unless people are including the magister epic moment and are counting that, I just can't see how this is happening. And yes I know it can be higher with another past life or two. But we are talking 1 or 2 difference.

I would like to see a DC breakdown, NOT INCLUDING BUFFS for spell DCs. Im not saying it isn't there, I just want to know what Im missing.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Another raid night. EEV6 was smooth, good communication, DPS and a plan had everything go as you'd like. EE Chrono was cake, had to check that it was actually on EE; again, communication was the main factor and a few well placed EiN's (I'm loving my rogue build for this!). We were going to do EE LoB but our tank had an emergency so had to log, next time. Did short man elite ToD and Shroud instead, 7 of us for each iirc and was fast and smooth.

[Hsoftl]

Yea, i know waht you mean, my guild is currently fairly small, with 7 members, two of whom are inactive, and another 2 are currently TRing, so its hard getting the guild together, and also we lack a tank, which is something ive been trying to fix, but so far havent had any luck finding one. Almost all of the bosses are easy on EE with a tank, EE DQ is one of the easiest quests i know of, but it just seems that the mobs are just exessive in their damage sometimes. As for spell DC's, i found that when we did EE Devil's Assault, the mage that we got for that said that his DC was 49, and he was only getting about half of the mobs, i've never played a caster, only a rouge, so i dont know what a high DC is per say, but i would say 52-55 would be the optimal range that mages should shoot for.

[maddmatt70]

Yea, i know waht you mean, my guild is currently fairly small, with 7 members, two of whom are inactive, and another 2 are currently TRing, so its hard getting the guild together, and also we lack a tank, which is something ive been trying to fix, but so far havent had any luck finding one. Almost all of the bosses are easy on EE with a tank, EE DQ is one of the easiest quests i know of, but it just seems that the mobs are just exessive in their damage sometimes. As for spell DC's, i found that when we did EE Devil's Assault, the mage that we got for that said that his DC was 49, and he was only getting about half of the mobs, i've never played a caster, only a rouge, so i dont know what a high DC is per say, but i would say 52-55 would be the optimal range that mages should shoot for.

There are many different types of parties and groups that can work on epic elite. First, it takes some experience to understand what it takes. If you are new to the game or relatively new you need to get beat up a bit until you figure out the tactics that work for you. A tank is not required on EE instead try a caster or an archer or try rope a dope melee style with multiple healers, or high dps aggro swap or intimidate/bluff or I can go on. Just keep trying if you want it you will get it.

[Ape_Man]

I would like to see a DC breakdown, NOT INCLUDING BUFFS for spell DCs. Im not saying it isn't there, I just want to know what Im missing.

Here's what my 34-point "gimp" hit's when on ED . . .

Necro DC
24 Int (58 Int)
3 SF (all three SF: Necro feats)
3 item (Staff)
1 lich
19 Base/Spell
1 PL
3 ED

54 necro DC - 55 with a bard.

There might be a few points I can squeeze in but I've been working on other toons.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Yea, i know waht you mean, my guild is currently fairly small, with 7 members, two of whom are inactive, and another 2 are currently TRing, so its hard getting the guild together, and also we lack a tank, which is something ive been trying to fix, but so far havent had any luck finding one. Almost all of the bosses are easy on EE with a tank, EE DQ is one of the easiest quests i know of, but it just seems that the mobs are just exessive in their damage sometimes. As for spell DC's, i found that when we did EE Devil's Assault, the mage that we got for that said that his DC was 49, and he was only getting about half of the mobs, i've never played a caster, only a rouge, so i dont know what a high DC is per say, but i would say 52-55 would be the optimal range that mages should shoot for.

Our most common and successful EE quest tank is a pure monk who is usually in GMoF destiny. For EH or HE raids he usually swaps into US. You don't need a wizard for CC if you have CC from other characters like the CC that my 10k stars archer brings with an alchemical earth bow and shiradi destiny or the CC that my unarmed rogue provides through stunning fist and GMoF destiny. Usually 2.5 such characters is enough for most quests - at least going by a recent experience in EEDQ1 (my archer, a GMoF monk and a warchanter iirc).

[EvilI]

The big issue is that if EE is too hard for you then there's no medium difficulty to practice tactics on, just one hard difficulty and three easy ones.

I feel there are some places where designers have mis-stepped, like a red named plant that doublestrikes with 250/hit AND has randomised aggro AND an obtrusively short reset-leash. But mostly what Sirgog said.

[zwiebelring]

But if kiting etc is a bad tactic, then MANY spells will be made obsolete...no more BB, no more firewall, etc...if the mobs have awesome AI it will be impossible to find a use for MANY spells...

Lets dot a mob...he thinks..hmmm dotted with some elemental dmg..lets swap to an absorp item, cast resists on myself, and some prot form elements while I am at it...then as i am outnumbered, I am going to haste myself and run like hell from these crazy dudes trying to kill me...sure, although it could be fun, and also rather funny in some weird way, it will take MUCH longer for people to run stuff, and not everyone has 1.5 hours to spend in every quest...

But yes, I do agree, that some, not all, AI could be bettered some...I am also not a fan of the "run to safe-spot and range" tactic...

IKiting is not fun at first and does not feel like I want to feel in a game where my character is called *legend*.

Look at it that way:
You do not see the Invisible Stalker but can detect its location. Your melee character without TS hits air. Cause that is what heroes do, beating air.

The epic Lich puts up a firewall and is running/floating around like a headless chicken... cause that is waht heroes do, hitting air and run around like chickens.

The caster can put up Web/Disco/Hold and then put up a fw.

Kiting is boring.

[Persiflage]

This. Most bosses don't really even need a tank if you are in synergistic destinies (if everyone's in off-destinies then you will need to tank many bosses carefully and might specifically want evasion tanks in some places)

The big issue is that if EE is too hard for you then there's no medium difficulty to practice tactics on, just one hard difficulty and three easy ones.

This, although I'd dispute that EH is easy for a significant proportion of the player base: I've jumped in on a few "Aargh! Help!" LFM's for EHard quests where the party had romped through Normal and thought they'd be OK on Hard. The last one - and a good example of what I'm talking about - was the end-fight of Druid's Curse, where the static group had - and fair play to them - been trying for two hours to complete. They weren't dumb, they just hadn't been playing for very long; a matter of six months for the most experienced from what I gather. All were RL friends, two were "stoners" who were later to the game by a couple of months than the others. They'd had no problem with the quest on ENorm.

And then you have folks like me.

I'm routinely shaking my head in disbelief at the complaints that EE is too easy. My Monk, Wizard and Arti (no other capped toons atm, though my cleric is getting there) can utterly trash EHard, but get torn apart like wet tissue paper on EE. I'm utterly stunned about the complaints that Monks, for instance, are too survivable etc. in EE quests... For instance, I can solo EH Devil Assault, but trying the same thing on EE means that I die so fast I can't even tell what killed me. I've successfully solo'd a couple of EE quests, but only by using *exactly* the sort of stupid, lame tactics that Ape Man is talking about (and I have to say, it's a rare day when I agree with him), hanging around in safe spots, resorting to ranged damage while whimpering in a corner, and so on.

I don't have anyone to show me how it's supposed to be done. I have only one toon - my Arti - with several past lives. I don't have a ton of Epic gear. I never played the old Epics so I have no experience of what this "alternative" way of playing might be.

I'm not saying I should be able to solo EE content, I'm saying that I should at least be able to survive long enough to figure out what to do without taking advantage of the stupid. Every EE pug I've been in has failed and yes, if you like you can say "well that's because you were in them": for all I know, it's true. So far as I can tell, I can't even contribute on EE. I can successfully hold or dance some mobs on my Wizard, even land the odd insta-kill, but then I've pulled aggro and am dead seconds later. I can stand at the back with my Monk punching thin air and hit EiN every 5 minutes to dispose of a few trash mobs, but my 120-ish AC, 20% dodge, ghostly and Blur don't seem to keep me alive long enough to actually, you know, be a monk. Bosses aren't affected by EiN anyway, and the destiny is pathetic if you're trying to DPS.

ENorm is fine. EHard is also fine: if you don't think so, you need to spend more time hanging out with newer players. EHard is a real stretch for a lot of smart, grown-up people of my acquaintance because they haven't yet completely mastered the art of playing their toons, let alone acquired a full set of synergistic gear. Of course EHard is too easy for well-geared and experienced players, because the range of potential power at a given level is just too great to be encompassed by only three difficulties. I've said it before and I'll say it again; there needs to be a difficulty in-between EH and EE, to give people like me some opportunity to figure out how to take that step.

I swing wildly between staying interested in the game and seriously considering quitting because I've hit a glass ceiling I have no idea how to break. I'm at the stage where EH is trivial (for most quests, on most toons, there are still some challenges here and there) but EE is unreachable, and I hate that. Hate it, hate it, hate it. I don't have hours and hours of playing time to keep going back in and dying in the first few seconds while I figure out what to try next. I even dusted off my Cleric recently to give me something to do, but despite all the great advice I received in the thread on the subject, it's not really grabbing me that much.

I don't want to TR to up my power level. I stopped enjoying the levelling process when getting the Ranger and Monk PL 's on my Arti, and I'm bitterly resentful of the arbitrarily high grind requirements. This is compounded by the fact that every single time a thread starts suggesting that the TR cost be reduced, the same d*mn people pop up and say "TR'ing is a choice" and "TR'ing is completely optional in this game", so I should be able to play all the content in a meaningful way without doing it, right?

So, what do I do? I've got capped toons - one with maxed ED's and another nearly so - who can and have solo'd most if not all non-raid EH content. And yet I can't set foot inside the door of an EE quest. I don't even know what these channels are that everyone goes on about where they find other players to run EE with!

I don't - I really, really don't - want the players who can already handle EE to be deprived of their fun. I don't want the players who struggle with EHard to be deprived of theirs (and there are far, far more of them than you'd ever think from reading these forums). However, I don't think it's unfair to ask for some fun for me, too. I want something in-between EH and EE so I have some way of improving my skills and trying things out without getting ripped to shreds in seconds by monsters with a zillion hit points, arbitrarily high saves and "just because" immunities.

Meh, whine over, I'll go back to my usual state of random silliness now...

[Shade]

Does anyone agree that EE is a little over done? I mean, do you really need a raid tank for almost every quest? When mobs hit 250, it seems a little ridiculous, and especially with EH being so easy, very frustrating. What ive been finding with elite, is that what counts as "tactics" in DDO, really jsut amounts to exploiting AI stupidity, and its getting really frustrating, because while i would like a completion just as much as anyone else, i dont really want to sit on a torch for 30 minutes and throw my noxious fang at the boss. It seems a little exsessive that you need a raid tank complete almost any EE dungeon, and especially with PUG grp ppl being so clueless, using jump spots or AI glitches to kill a green dragon. The bosses arent too bad, but some are a little exessive in the DPS, but mainly it seems that the mob damage out put is insane. When spiders do 150 average, it gets pretty frustrating

The mere fact you call a "tank" a "raidtank" just points out a massive flaw in this game:

Every quest is such a joke difficulty wise, taht actaully playing a tank at all is a rediculous notion.

Most serious MMOs you do infact benefit from taking along a tank character on EVERY QUEST (or every group quest for those that define such things).. It's simply broken and limits the games customization that thats not the case in DDO.

It just really hits me hard how poor they make tanks in DDO, so poor in fact that they are automatically not even a word, but instead have to be branded "raidtank".

And as many others have said: It's a laughable notion anyways.

and I REALLY wish it was true. I mean I spent several months building the ultimate pure tank character. And I after that I stopped playing him, because that was it. I tanked hte most difficult EE raid in the game sucessfully, i had all the gear.. There was tons of content left to do (EE quests), but there is absolutely ZERO point to play a "tank/raid tank/defensive char/whatever you want to call it" in an EE.

My sorcerer so vastly superior in nearly every category that its simply excrusiating to play him in EE quests. He has no real purposes there.

So for you to think one is "required".. yea lol.. Not the case, and I wish it was.

How to win EEs quickly and effeciently:

Take a character with serious ranged damage output/killing ability. (Sorcerer/Fvs are the top classes by far here, but any build with ranged can do well).
Press WASD and spacebar keys in rapid and random paterns to confuse ai. Alternatively mash keyboard. Either way works fine.
???
Win much faster then you would if you tried to melee stuff.
Other 5 chars optional. They may even make it harder due to scaling (Yea sadly even EE scales slightly).


Because even with whatever melee you think is ideal - It's simply NOT effecient to play a character who is whoefully uneccesary.

Far as your frusteration. I can kind of understand, but you need to understand every difficulty is not for every player.

What you really should be asking:
Epic hard?
post contents:

Why is this mode such a joke? It's difficulty 3 of 4 (or 7 of 8 in select quests) yet everyone who feels they are only ready for the lowest mode consistantly and easily completes it.

The issue here is not EE quests being hard enough to require a tank. Sadly its WAY too easy to even thinkg about one imo.
It's the vast gap between EH and EE.

Really old epic would of been perfect for EH, and its what the devs originally planned and promised. Why it was not done? Unexplicable mistake that results in posts like this.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This, although I'd dispute that EH is easy for a significant proportion of the player base: I've jumped in on a few "Aargh! Help!" LFM's for EHard quests where the party had romped through Normal and thought they'd be OK on Hard. The last one - and a good example of what I'm talking about - was the end-fight of Druid's Curse, where the static group had - and fair play to them - been trying for two hours to complete. They weren't dumb, they just hadn't been playing for very long; a matter of six months for the most experienced from what I gather. All were RL friends, two were "stoners" who were later to the game by a couple of months than the others. They'd had no problem with the quest on ENorm.

And then you have folks like me.

I'm routinely shaking my head in disbelief at the complaints that EE is too easy. My Monk, Wizard and Arti (no other capped toons atm, though my cleric is getting there) can utterly trash EHard, but get torn apart like wet tissue paper on EE. I'm utterly stunned about the complaints that Monks, for instance, are too survivable etc. in EE quests... For instance, I can solo EH Devil Assault, but trying the same thing on EE means that I die so fast I can't even tell what killed me. I've successfully solo'd a couple of EE quests, but only by using *exactly* the sort of stupid, lame tactics that Ape Man is talking about (and I have to say, it's a rare day when I agree with him), hanging around in safe spots, resorting to ranged damage while whimpering in a corner, and so on.

I don't have anyone to show me how it's supposed to be done. I have only one toon - my Arti - with several past lives. I don't have a ton of Epic gear. I never played the old Epics so I have no experience of what this "alternative" way of playing might be.

I'm not saying I should be able to solo EE content, I'm saying that I should at least be able to survive long enough to figure out what to do without taking advantage of the stupid. Every EE pug I've been in has failed and yes, if you like you can say "well that's because you were in them": for all I know, it's true. So far as I can tell, I can't even contribute on EE. I can successfully hold or dance some mobs on my Wizard, even land the odd insta-kill, but then I've pulled aggro and am dead seconds later. I can stand at the back with my Monk punching thin air and hit EiN every 5 minutes to dispose of a few trash mobs, but my 120-ish AC, 20% dodge, ghostly and Blur don't seem to keep me alive long enough to actually, you know, be a monk. Bosses aren't affected by EiN anyway, and the destiny is pathetic if you're trying to DPS.

ENorm is fine. EHard is also fine: if you don't think so, you need to spend more time hanging out with newer players. EHard is a real stretch for a lot of smart, grown-up people of my acquaintance because they haven't yet completely mastered the art of playing their toons, let alone acquired a full set of synergistic gear. Of course EHard is too easy for well-geared and experienced players, because the range of potential power at a given level is just too great to be encompassed by only three difficulties. I've said it before and I'll say it again; there needs to be a difficulty in-between EH and EE, to give people like me some opportunity to figure out how to take that step.

I swing wildly between staying interested in the game and seriously considering quitting because I've hit a glass ceiling I have no idea how to break. I'm at the stage where EH is trivial (for most quests, on most toons, there are still some challenges here and there) but EE is unreachable, and I hate that. Hate it, hate it, hate it. I don't have hours and hours of playing time to keep going back in and dying in the first few seconds while I figure out what to try next. I even dusted off my Cleric recently to give me something to do, but despite all the great advice I received in the thread on the subject, it's not really grabbing me that much.

I don't want to TR to up my power level. I stopped enjoying the levelling process when getting the Ranger and Monk PL 's on my Arti, and I'm bitterly resentful of the arbitrarily high grind requirements. This is compounded by the fact that every single time a thread starts suggesting that the TR cost be reduced, the same d*mn people pop up and say "TR'ing is a choice" and "TR'ing is completely optional in this game", so I should be able to play all the content in a meaningful way without doing it, right?

So, what do I do? I've got capped toons - one with maxed ED's and another nearly so - who can and have solo'd most if not all non-raid EH content. And yet I can't set foot inside the door of an EE quest. I don't even know what these channels are that everyone goes on about where they find other players to run EE with!

I don't - I really, really don't - want the players who can already handle EE to be deprived of their fun. I don't want the players who struggle with EHard to be deprived of theirs (and there are far, far more of them than you'd ever think from reading these forums). However, I don't think it's unfair to ask for some fun for me, too. I want something in-between EH and EE so I have some way of improving my skills and trying things out without getting ripped to shreds in seconds by monsters with a zillion hit points, arbitrarily high saves and "just because" immunities.

Meh, whine over, I'll go back to my usual state of random silliness now...

I think your glass ceiling might be contacts. Whether its friends list, an established channel or a new guild EE shouldn't be with complete strangers.

Your best toon for EE that you've listed is your monk. Focus on him, get him all the basics and a sun soul set, spec into earth stance IV and get some a bear cloak for the PRR. With earth IV, standing with stone and a bear cloak the hits that do get past all the dodge and AC start to become much more manageable. Get that wisdom up so drifting lotus lands and keep working on that EiN and learn the encounters to save it for - even if that means a solo run on EH/EN.

The above is basically what I do on my unarmed rogue except I rely on displacement scrolls and stoneskin clickies in place of proper defenses and try to let others get aggro, with legendary tactics twisted in i can take on 1 mob a t a time with ease and drop whole groups with drifting lotus and EiN with just 16 base wis+gear.

[Ivan_Milic]

+3 tomes are easy to acquire now, I have pulled about 8 out of the MOTU quests so far, and I don't play that much anymore, or 500-600k plat on the AH, if you can't afford one of those by level 25, your doing something wrong. +4's are definitely more rare though.

I pulled 2(+3 tome) from von 5 chests.

[Persiflage]

I think your glass ceiling might be contacts. Whether its friends list, an established channel or a new guild EE shouldn't be with complete strangers.

Your best toon for EE that you've listed is your monk. Focus on him, get him all the basics and a sun soul set,

Done.


spec into earth stance IV

Done.


and get some a bear cloak for the PRR.

Challenges? Oh hell, no, really? :( And... even if I ground out the max cloak for 9 additional PRR (not going to happen: I hate challenges and have nobody to run them with anyway), is it really better than the 10% ghostly from my existing cloak? I could put the Epic Golden Guile in the throat slot and wear the cloak as well I guess, but... yeah. Challenges. :(


With earth IV, standing with stone and a bear cloak the hits that do get past all the dodge and AC start to become much more manageable. Get that wisdom up so drifting lotus lands and keep working on that EiN and learn the encounters to save it for - even if that means a solo run on EH/EN.

Drifting Lotus DC: 52 in Earth IV, no Yugo pots.


The above is basically what I do on my unarmed rogue except I rely on displacement scrolls and stoneskin clickies in place of proper defenses and try to let others get aggro, with legendary tactics twisted in i can take on 1 mob a t a time with ease and drop whole groups with drifting lotus and EiN with just 16 base wis+gear.

My stunning fist/kukan-do DC's aren't a problem ;) I couldn't get my UMD to meaningful levels so I dropped the skill entirely when I last LR'd. I could try crafting a GS Displacement clicky, although damned if I know where I'm going to slot it.

I suspect you're right, I probably need better contacts, but after two years playing - almost to the day, I'm nearly at my "DDO birthday" - I know exactly one person who plays EE content. I hardly know anyone who plays at the same times I do. Most of the friends I've made are in the US/Canada, while I'm in the UK. Very sad panda. :(

[bibliomane]

ED's make a huge difference. CC & necro casting--I've run with 10+ people who have 54-56 enchant DC, so it is attainable. I TR'd my sorc and am not going enchant with her, so I haven't looked at the those EDs very closely lately.

If the party is doing sufficient damage, they should keep aggro even if you are dotting/using damage spells. My cleric takes aggro when I 2 man with a a monk, but othwise even massive crits usually fail to take aggro. I do not use diplo.

Monks...are way overpowered. I run with several monks both light and dark. They are extremely OP. My partner is a 25 light monk 2nd life. He does a lot of damage, doesn't get hit much and migates a great deal of damage when he does. I have to heal him (cure mod fills him up) about 6--10 times a quest on levels 19-23. It is annoying and boring to watch him kill everything while in a 'getting past it' ED. Playing with him in GF is pretty much nothing but piking and getting him refills. He doesn't do as much damage as a dark monk, but his self-sufficiency is much higher. The dark monks I run with do more instant damage, but the usually require more heals and such from me. I acutally like running with them better because at least then I have something to do (heal/dot trash/etc.) Kale just takes an extra 5 seconds, kills it and moves on. :/

OP monks, you are killing me with bordom and forcing me to be a battle cleric. ::grumbles:: now I have to go find something decent to hit with while my 'good' spells are on timer.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Done.

Done.

Challenges? Oh hell, no, really? :( And... even if I ground out the max cloak for 9 additional PRR (not going to happen: I hate challenges and have nobody to run them with anyway), is it really better than the 10% ghostly from my existing cloak? I could put the Epic Golden Guile in the throat slot and wear the cloak as well I guess, but... yeah. Challenges. :(

Drifting Lotus DC: 52 in Earth IV, no Yugo pots.

My stunning fist/kukan-do DC's aren't a problem ;) I couldn't get my UMD to meaningful levels so I dropped the skill entirely when I last LR'd. I could try crafting a GS Displacement clicky, although damned if I know where I'm going to slot it.

I suspect you're right, I probably need better contacts, but after two years playing - almost to the day, I'm nearly at my "DDO birthday" - I know exactly one person who plays EE content. I hardly know anyone who plays at the same times I do. Most of the friends I've made are in the US/Canada, while I'm in the UK. Very sad panda. :(

Hi again. Feel free to look me up on any of my toons anytime and we can organise some EEs to get you comfortable.

I've only gone to tier 2 earth cloak on my archer but it makes a noticeable difference everything considered, it's also important to have a source of exceptional tactics for EEs. I get ghostly on epic ring of the stalker but that's another challenge item but well worth it again. Challenges are simple to farm on a monk if you get the hang of them, again though I've only bothered with a tier 2 stalker ring.

Stunning fist DC is important too. Grave Wrappings or better for +10, +5 or better exceptional from spare hand or bear cloak (dun robar ring is in too important a slot - 1 slot should be a holy bursted ToD ring and the other either a stalker ring or an avithoul seal in almost all cases). I think Newtou-1's SF DC is 10+12 levels+10 wraps+6 legendary tactics+5 spare hand+3 GMoF+15 wisdom+2 fighter dil=63 in water stance with yugo pot maybe.

Do you have yugo pots yet?

I think New's wis is 16+3 time+2 enh+8 item+2 ins+1 exc+1 LotD+3 GMoF+2 yugo+2 ship+2 alchemical=42. This is pretty extreme in terms of gear but he does have 18 rogue levels and less wisdom than a pure monk accordingly so you have some wiggle room. New's SF DC is a bit overkill mind, I think a good target is about 60 I just have to try a bit harder as New doesn't have much else if in an off destiny so needs the SF to land sort of thing while as a monk you have a few more tricks available.

[Llewndyn]

Here's what my 34-point "gimp" hit's when on ED . . .

Necro DC
24 Int (58 Int) 58 Intelligence seems a little high to call your character gimp...
3 SF (all three SF: Necro feats) Did that
3 item (Staff) That, I will admit, is not hard to acquire
1 lich yup
19 Base/Spell OK
1 PL Not everyone has a past life but will give you that
3 ED How do you know Vellrad is not a capped ED? This one presumes a lot

54 necro DC - 55 with a bard.

There might be a few points I can squeeze in but I've been working on other toons.

There seems to be 2 schools here on the forums: Those who play the game for fun but have lives who are working together to try to better themselves through collaboration, and those who have absolutely nothing else to do in a given night but spend 6 hours on DDO a day and then pooh pooh people from the first camp because "Even my gimp can beat those stats". Ask on the forums and everyone except apparently me has 5 mules with comparable stats to that character, but myDDO some of these people and I am willing to bet the majority are solidly in the first camp.

58 Intelligence takes grinding. I took drow and every Intelligence enhancement I could and have a +6 item and a Tier 3 GS item and +2 ship buffs (which everyone should have unless you are total gimp, right?) and lich form and the stars align just right and I come up with.... 48. I am level 20 though, not 25. You picked up 10 Intelligence from Epic Destinies? That's awesome and I am excited to do that as well... but to throw stats like that out there and then say "that's on my gimp" is piling on someone who asked what I thought was a genuine question or made a valid point. If you can PM me both your "gimp" character and one of your better characters who is rocking WAY higher DCs (I will assume +2 ship buffs and lich form) I will never make an argument like this again and will come back on these very forums and apologize profusely and sing your praises Beowulf style. If what you send me either A) does not come close to what you are talking about even WITH the assumptions, or B) is 2 characters that it is obvious you spent a LOT of time working on and now believe since you achieved them it must be easy (hint, gimps don't usually get +3/ +4 stat tomes, Tier 3 GS items and Torc treatment) then you must come on and apologize to Vellrad and refrain from propogating the forums with this kind of lame epeen for a full day. Deal?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Done.

Done.

Challenges? Oh hell, no, really? :( And... even if I ground out the max cloak for 9 additional PRR (not going to happen: I hate challenges and have nobody to run them with anyway), is it really better than the 10% ghostly from my existing cloak? I could put the Epic Golden Guile in the throat slot and wear the cloak as well I guess, but... yeah. Challenges. :(

Drifting Lotus DC: 52 in Earth IV, no Yugo pots.

My stunning fist/kukan-do DC's aren't a problem ;) I couldn't get my UMD to meaningful levels so I dropped the skill entirely when I last LR'd. I could try crafting a GS Displacement clicky, although damned if I know where I'm going to slot it.

I suspect you're right, I probably need better contacts, but after two years playing - almost to the day, I'm nearly at my "DDO birthday" - I know exactly one person who plays EE content. I hardly know anyone who plays at the same times I do. Most of the friends I've made are in the US/Canada, while I'm in the UK. Very sad panda. :(

Hi again. Feel free to look me up on any of my toons anytime and we can organise some EEs to get you comfortable.

I've only gone to tier 2 earth cloak on my archer but it makes a noticeable difference everything considered, it's also important to have a source of exceptional tactics for EEs. I get ghostly on epic ring of the stalker but that's another challenge item but well worth it again. Challenges are simple to farm on a monk if you get the hang of them, again though I've only bothered with a tier 2 stalker ring.

Stunning fist DC is important too. Grave Wrappings or better for +10, +5 or better exceptional from spare hand or bear cloak (dun robar ring is in too important a slot - 1 slot should be a holy bursted ToD ring and the other either a stalker ring or an avithoul seal in almost all cases). I think Newtou-1's SF DC is 10+12 levels+10 wraps+6 legendary tactics+5 spare hand+3 GMoF+15 wisdom+2 fighter dil=63 in water stance with yugo pot maybe.

Do you have yugo pots yet?

I think New's wis is 16+3 time+2 enh+8 item+2 ins+1 exc+1 LotD+3 GMoF+2 yugo+2 ship+2 alchemical=42. This is pretty extreme in terms of gear but he does have 18 rogue levels and less wisdom than a pure monk accordingly so you have some wiggle room. New's SF DC is a bit overkill mind, I think a good target is about 60 I just have to try a bit harder as New doesn't have much else if in an off destiny so needs the SF to land sort of thing while as a monk you have a few more tricks available.

Just thinking about this and I'm going to try to keep my current TR Nilak's elite streak going to 25. I'll see how it goes and hopefully it'll be a learning experience for everyone.

[Vellrad]

My main, Zandos d'Kundarak is dwarven palemaster. I'm sitting on 54 int with yugoloth, ship buff and lich. After using free LR, I got +43 spell pen and 50DC. Sure, I could get +8 int item, and lvl24 robe of shadow (when mabar will come) for +2 DC get more but, if 50 but if 50 is doing nothing, I doubt 52 will do much more.

[Ape_Man]

. . .I've successfully solo'd a couple of EE quests, but only by using *exactly* the sort of stupid, lame tactics that Ape Man is talking about (and I have to say, it's a rare day when I agree with him), hanging around in safe spots, resorting to ranged damage while whimpering in a corner, and so on.


You should agree with me more often, it's a sign of intelligence.

[Ape_Man]

58 Intelligence takes grinding. . . .

Yes, but any idiot can get 56-57 INT in the current game with barely any work. The only hard to get piece of equipment she has a Litany which admittedly she got lucky getting, the rest WAS ALL OBTAINED FROM THE FRIGGIN AUCTION HOUSE.

And I'm not kidding about that. Random +8 item, + 3 Insighful robe, etc, all bough off the AH and cheap.

[Ape_Man]

My main, Zandos d'Kundarak is dwarven palemaster. I'm sitting on 54 int with yugoloth, ship buff and lich. After using free LR, I got +43 spell pen and 50DC. Sure, I could get +8 int item, and lvl24 robe of shadow (when mabar will come) for +2 DC get more but, if 50 but if 50 is doing nothing, I doubt 52 will do much more.

54 in EE works about as well as 44 (her pre U14 Necro DC) did in old epics. You still need to prep mobs.

[LOOON375]

Here's what my 34-point "gimp" hit's when on ED . . .

Necro DC
24 Int (58 Int)
3 SF (all three SF: Necro feats)
3 item (Staff)
1 lich
19 Base/Spell
1 PL
3 ED

54 necro DC - 55 with a bard.

There might be a few points I can squeeze in but I've been working on other toons.It still don't jive with what I have.

I have a second life MAX intell drow and I can only hit 48 unbuffed intell. I still need a +8 item for a difference of +2. When buffed, I can't even get close to 58 and I took all six level ups in the destiny tree. Even if I twisted two intell points from another tree, I still can't get close to 58 and I still can't reach that number even with buffs.

I focused on enchant for CC and I have everything you listed above, just enchant instead of necro. The only thing I don't have that you listed, is a +3 Item but I have a +2 for one DC difference.

I can't remember if I ate a +3 or a +4 tome. The numbers just aren't adding up.

And Im still not getting close to the numbers you are listing.

My wizzy had more than high enough DC's and spell pen to CC the old epic content, and now I have maxed out the destiny and added the new gear, minus a +8 item, to increase my DC's and spell pen to max possible for second life, and it's not enough? Even with a +8 item, I still cant come close to the 55 range, unless people are counting the magister epic moment.

I can hit a 54 while buffed, including the new bard song and that still isn't close to a 58. Even if I tr'd another wizzy life, I could MAYBE squeeze in another point of intell and increase my DC by one and still can't come close to what everyone is saying is "easy" to achieve. And if you aint hitting it, you are gimped and can't run EE content.

It just isn't jiving. And by the way, Im not a number cruncher or a min/maxer. I just play the game to have fun.

[jandhaer]

Epic Elite shouldnt be for everyone if its too hard for you then you or your toon just arent ready yet. We were running Epic Elite's for favor yesterday with half the party random pugs and were running right through them. Of course 2 of the 6 party members where superstars :-) (not counting myself I just punched stuff)

Keep Epic Elite the way it is. IMO Epic hard needs its difficulty raised a few notches so that its difficulty is actually the middle ground between Epic normal and Epic elite, and not just epic normal part II.

[Llewndyn]

Hi again. Feel free to look me up on any of my toons anytime and we can organise some EEs to get you comfortable.

I've only gone to tier 2 earth cloak on my archer but it makes a noticeable difference everything considered, it's also important to have a source of exceptional tactics for EEs. I get ghostly on epic ring of the stalker but that's another challenge item but well worth it again. Challenges are simple to farm on a monk if you get the hang of them, again though I've only bothered with a tier 2 stalker ring.

Stunning fist DC is important too. Grave Wrappings or better for +10, +5 or better exceptional from spare hand or bear cloak (dun robar ring is in too important a slot - 1 slot should be a holy bursted ToD ring and the other either a stalker ring or an avithoul seal in almost all cases). I think Newtou-1's SF DC is 10+12 levels+10 wraps+6 legendary tactics+5 spare hand+3 GMoF+15 wisdom+2 fighter dil=63 in water stance with yugo pot maybe.

Do you have yugo pots yet?

I think New's wis is 16+3 time+2 enh+8 item+2 ins+1 exc+1 LotD+3 GMoF+2 yugo+2 ship+2 alchemical=42. This is pretty extreme in terms of gear but he does have 18 rogue levels and less wisdom than a pure monk accordingly so you have some wiggle room. New's SF DC is a bit overkill mind, I think a good target is about 60 I just have to try a bit harder as New doesn't have much else if in an off destiny so needs the SF to land sort of thing while as a monk you have a few more tricks available.

Just thinking about this and I'm going to try to keep my current TR Nilak's elite streak going to 25. I'll see how it goes and hopefully it'll be a learning experience for everyone.

You didn't go all accusatory, your numbers look good (really good, wish I had built my monk like that) and you offered to help. If you guys are on Ghallanda I wanna come along just to see how it's done :D

[zwiebelring]

Yes, but any idiot can get 56-57 INT in the current game with barely any work. The only hard to get piece of equipment she has a Litany which admittedly she got lucky getting, the rest WAS ALL OBTAINED FROM THE FRIGGIN AUCTION HOUSE.

And I'm not kidding about that. Random +8 item, + 3 Insighful robe, etc, all bough off the AH and cheap.
Easy grind still remains grind. And the time for that grind is the limitting factor and does not seem to be appealing for everybody.

If I have!! to grind 3 past lives of at least 2 different arcane caster classes to have a viable EE DC I feel the difficulty of epic elite is overtoned.

Please do not talk like it is no effort whatsoever to reach some numbers. Epic hard remains too easy with all that easy to obtain gear whereas epic elite just ignores everything available before by ehard standards.

So either the game wants to force you into TRing over and over again or the whole difficulties are not balanced well. I call the latter at the moment. I have many endgame items and only lack past lives. For prepping my main according to epic elite I had to get 3 more Sorc lives, 3 Wiz lives and 2 more Paladin lives.

What is left is mind numbing, stupid grind. Someone called it *glass ceiling*. I am there. I can see the other side, yet breaking through is too painful for my playstyle. I guess it is time for a break then ;) orm some improvement to prevent that try and error feeling of Nintendo Game Boy Jump'n Runs.

[Ape_Man]

It still don't jive with what I have.

I have a second life MAX intell drow and I can only hit 48 unbuffed intell. I still need a +8 item for a difference of +2. When buffed, I can't even get close to 58 and I took all six level ups in the destiny tree. Even if I twisted two intell points from another tree, I still can't get close to 58 and I still can't reach that number even with buffs.

I focused on enchant for CC and I have everything you listed above, just enchant instead of necro. The only thing I don't have that you listed, is a +3 Item but I have a +2 for one DC difference.

I can't remember if I ate a +3 or a +4 tome. The numbers just aren't adding up.

And Im still not getting close to the numbers you are listing.

My wizzy had more than high enough DC's and spell pen to CC the old epic content, and now I have maxed out the destiny and added the new gear, minus a +8 item, to increase my DC's and spell pen to max possible for second life, and it's not enough? Even with a +8 item, I still cant come close to the 55 range, unless people are counting the magister epic moment.

I can hit a 54 while buffed, including the new bard song and that still isn't close to a 58. Even if I tr'd another wizzy life, I could MAYBE squeeze in another point of intell and increase my DC by one and still can't come close to what everyone is saying is "easy" to achieve. And if you aint hitting it, you are gimped and can't run EE content.

It just isn't jiving. And by the way, Im not a number cruncher or a min/maxer. I just play the game to have fun.

heres the breakdown, please tell me what is hard to get besides the litany?

18 Base
6 Levels
4 Enhancements (3 Wiz, 1 Human)
3 Tome
8 Item (AH bough goggles)
1 Exceptional (ring or epic slot)
3 Insightful (Robe bough off the AH)
2 Capstone
2 Lich Form
2 Yugoloth Potions
1 Litany (okay, this is hard to get)
6 Epic destiny
2 Airship


58

[Llewndyn]

Yes, but any idiot can get 56-57 INT in the current game with barely any work. The only hard to get piece of equipment she has a Litany which admittedly she got lucky getting, the rest WAS ALL OBTAINED FROM THE FRIGGIN AUCTION HOUSE.

And I'm not kidding about that. Random +8 item, + 3 Insighful robe, etc, all bough off the AH and cheap.

What is "cheap" to you? And I cannot get 56-57 INT, so I guess that makes me even less than any idiot. Wait, does that make me an ape man? Noooo00oo!!!! Get away from me, you da- nevermind, not worth it.

Ha HA! I knew it! Litany on a "gimp" you don't play much, huh?! :D

I want a Beowulf poem now.... forget the apology to Vellrad. I am not a huge spender, and have yet to top 1.7 million plat on a character, and usually hover around 900k or so. Most of the people I run with have much, MUCH less than that. Please SS some of these +8 INT items that are going cheap on the auction house that apparently people post ALL OVER THESE FRIGGIN FORUMS trying to get that you picked up "cheap". Cheap to me would be 250k or so... I think that is a fair assessment.

Love,
Llewndyn

[zwiebelring]

To ApeMan:
It is hard to get the luck on +8 loot drops or the money claimed for it in the ah if you do not have the account infrastructure for doing loot runs.

The time is missing. That simple. F2p account, 2 character slots. No Haggle Bard, no experience to the game, starting from 0. Your breakdown applies to vet-players only. Still, you either grind for specific items or for the money to buy them.

And stop using terms like cheap. That is depending according to your available money in total anyways. It varies from 1 CP to 4,3 mio. PP. So what exactly is cheap? On orien you see insane prices for those cheap insightful stat+3 armors. And by insane I mean 1,2 mio. PP. That is not cheap. That is 1/3 of the total PP cap. Personally I call myself rich if I have 400k PP on a semi permanent base.

So please define cheap for the whole server and as an absolutum. You won't be able to ;).

[Ape_Man]

To ApeMan:
It is hard to get the luck on +8 loot drops or the money claimed for it in the ah if you do not have the account infrastructure for doing loot runs.

The time is missing. That simple. F2p account, 2 character slots. No Haggle Bard, no experience to the game, starting from 0. Your breakdown applies to vet-players only. Still, you either grind for specific items or for the money to buy them.

And stop using terms like cheap. That is depending according to your available money in total anyways. It varies from 1 CP to 4,3 mio. PP. So what exactly is cheap? On orien you see insane prices for those cheap insightful stat+3 armors. And by insane I mean 1,2 mio. PP. That is not cheap. That is 1/3 of the total PP cap. Personally I call myself rich if I have 400k PP on a semi permanent base.

So please define cheap for the whole server and as an absolutum. You won't be able to ;).

Oh for fug's sake . . . do you want epic-capable gear handed to you when you get off the boat from Korthos?

Cheap = purchasable with Plat.

[Cyr]

To ApeMan:
It is hard to get the luck on +8 loot drops or the money claimed for it in the ah if you do not have the account infrastructure for doing loot runs.

The time is missing. That simple. F2p account, 2 character slots. No Haggle Bard, no experience to the game, starting from 0. Your breakdown applies to vet-players only. Still, you either grind for specific items or for the money to buy them.

Setting the bar pretty low there...f2p account, 2 character slots, and no experience in game...to argue about the ease of endgame gearing...

[EvilI]

54 in EE works about as well as 44 (her pre U14 Necro DC) did in old epics. You still need to prep mobs.

I really doubt that. In my limited experience necro dc 51-52 in EE works nowhere near (as in not even the same post-code area) as 44 did in old epics. (Rarely needed to prep anything pre u-14, can mostly only kill wizards and dretches now).

EDIT: I'm fairly sure the fortitude-saves where thoroughly buffed because of the complaints about insta-kill domination in epic quests (a side effect of stupidly high enemy hitpoints). Of course there was a triple-nerf as WotB was simultaneously nerfed along with mob hitpoints. I see these changes as a blessing in disguise. The level-drains from WotB actually let me kill stuff now and then, and the changes to enemy hitpoints and PC healing potential and damage output mean that you can actually complete most quests without any wizard at all (or with me piking).

[zwiebelring]

Oh for fug's sake . . . do you want epic-capable gear handed to you when you get off the boat from Korthos?

Cheap = purchasable with Plat.

Your definition of cheap is wrong. Thank you for the confirm. Further swearing and circumventing the forums profanity filter won't make it any more accurate.

Think about the difference between easy to get and cheap and analyze the pool of ressources used by a new/casual player and a vet.


Setting the bar pretty low there...f2p account, 2 character slots, and no experience in game...to argue about the ease of endgame gearing...
I am pointing out the danger of personal impression easily put onto others.

What ApeMan says it is cheap, I just say it is possible, but comparing the price I'd say it is nowhere cheap.

[Ape_Man]

Your definition of cheap is wrong. Thank you for the confirm. Further swearing and circumventing the forums profanity filter won't make it any more accurate.

Think about the difference between easy to get and cheap and analyze the pool of ressources used by a new/casual player and a vet.

Oh whine me a river, if you set the bar that low there's no point in playing the game.

[LOOON375]

heres the breakdown, please tell me what is hard to get besides the litany?

18 Base
6 Levels
4 Enhancements (3 Wiz, 1 Human)
3 Tome
8 Item (AH bough goggles)
1 Exceptional (ring or epic slot)
3 Insightful (Robe bough off the AH)
2 Capstone
2 Lich Form
2 Yugoloth Potions
1 Litany (okay, this is hard to get)
6 Epic destiny
2 Airship


58Nowhere did I say anything was hard to get. I said the numbers just aren't jiving with what I have.
20 base (difference of +2)
6 level ups
3 enhancements
3 tome
6 item (don't have yet) for a difference of -2
2 exception tod ring(rendered useless after update) difference of -1
2 insightful ring (difference of -1)
2 capstone
2 lich
6 epic destiny
1 litany (don't have and refuse to grind for a single item) -1

Based on what is listed, my intlell should be 3 less than what yours is.

I asked for UNBUFFED intell and you are adding buffs...............This right here is what is wrong with a large portion of the stuff that's posted on this forum. People include buffs that not everyone has access to, only to make it sound that everyone SHOULD have them. When people do that when they talk numbers, but leave it out, it causes confusion and distorts the information.

but I have access to basically everything you listed and the numbers still aren't even coming close to jiving. I don't know off the top of my head what the number breakdown for my intell is unless someone lists it on the forum. Based on what you posted and what I have, we should have a difference in intel by just a few points, and not even close to a difference of 10, especially since I started with a higher base intell.

Unless there is a glitch in the matrix and my UI is showing me the wrong intell total, the numbers still don't jive.

I don't use yugo pots simply because I refuse to grind for them. But if needed, I will drink a store pot for the same benefit.

[zwiebelring]

Oh whine me a river, if you set the bar that low there's no point in playing the game.

Out of arguments?

[Ape_Man]

Out of arguments?

Why argue when I'm right?

[Ape_Man]

Nowhere did I say anything was hard to get. I said the numbers just aren't jiving with what I have.
20 base (difference of +2)
6 level ups
3 enhancements
3 tome
6 item (don't have yet) for a difference of -2
2 exception tod ring(rendered useless after update) difference of -1
2 insightful ring (difference of -1)
2 capstone
2 lich
6 epic destiny
1 litany (don't have and refuse to grind for a single item) -1

Based on what is listed, my intlell should be 3 less than what yours is.

I asked for UNBUFFED intell and you are adding buffs...............This right here is what is wrong with a large portion of the stuff that's posted on this forum. People include buffs that not everyone has access to, only to make it sound that everyone SHOULD have them. When people do that when they talk numbers, but leave it out, it causes confusion and distorts the information.

I gave you a full breakdown. If basic subtraction is beyond your capabilities then I'm not sure what to say.


but I have access to basically everything you listed and the numbers still aren't even coming close to jiving. I don't know off the top of my head what the number breakdown for my intell is unless someone lists it on the forum. Based on what you posted and what I have, we should have a difference in intel by just a few points, and not even close to a difference of 10, especially since I started with a higher base intell.

Unless there is a glitch in the matrix and my UI is showing me the wrong intell total, the numbers still don't jive.

I don't use yugo pots simply because I refuse to grind for them. But if needed, I will drink a store pot for the same benefit.

So you're lazy and then complain on the forums that stuff is too hard . . . on a caster?

[Llewndyn]

heres the breakdown, please tell me what is hard to get besides the litany?

18 Base
6 Levels
4 Enhancements (3 Wiz, 1 Human)
3 Tome
8 Item (AH bough goggles)
1 Exceptional (ring or epic slot)
3 Insightful (Robe bough off the AH)
2 Capstone
2 Lich Form
2 Yugoloth Potions
1 Litany (okay, this is hard to get)
6 Epic destiny
2 Airship


58

OK, so now you have to be a human, Yugoloth potions is not the easiest to attain at 20 (maybe by 25), have yet to see a +8 item though they might be plentiful by the time I'm 25, have yet to see a +3 tome but I might be running all the wrong quests, you cannot be an archmage if you want (I went PM, but what if someone WANTS to be an archmage?), 6 from Epic destiny (which I assume I will have by 25)... I still stand by my statement that that is a lot to have to get to have "gimp" stats, by your measure, though I will appreciate that you broke it down.

I think you are fighting a losing battle, Ape_Man, I see where you are coming from, really I do, it's just that people are tired of that kind of argument and you have become a focal point for some of that annoyance. Pointing out that someone is stupid and doesn't know how to subtract is not going to win you any friends, either (I already know, "I have tons of friends!") and only goes further to show that your argument is flawed and that you are running out of points to make. I am tired of coming up with witty (at least in my mind) anecdotes and trying to point out the folly of these kinds of arguments; suffice it to say you are incorrect. Off the top of my head I am rocking:

20 - Drow starting INT
2 - Tome
3 - Exceptional INT from GS item
2 - lich
2 - ship buffs
6 - +6 item (now those ARE cheap, I got mine for 15k platinum, which I would consider cheap)
1 - Epic Destiny (just got enough AP to grab one)
3 - Wizard enhancements
4 - I cant remember if it's 3 or 4 from stat increases through levelling to 20, too lazy to check, let's say 4
2 - Capstone
3 - No idea, random other places

48 at 20. I have 1 from ED, so that would be 5 more there total? Yugo potions are not the easiest to get, I have been in PUGs with some pretty good players and seen wipes or near wipes on hard on Amrath, we might all be gimps on Ghallanda (for shame!)

To the other person saying the problem is PUGging - then that only goes to further solidify that EE is too hard. If you PUG and get 3 gimps and have only one superstar- type character, then yes, you should wipe. But it should still be something that can be done with a PUG without a half hour HoX style walkthrough of strategy if everyone plays competently. Not everyone can run in a static group. I know for me RL > DDO and if Aikido class runs over of my son wants to throw the old pigskin with his pops I won't be there for some game static group, and then will be summarily kicked from said group and in the same boat as a lot of people. It really comes down, again, to the Haves looking down their noses at the Have-Nots and completely forgetting being in their shoes at any time.

3 PL being factored into anything is also a weak argument. I am not doing Paladin again. I hated that life, I won't do it. I should still be able to play big boy content. I LOVE Wizard, but might not have the urge to play 2 more lives of it. Am I doomed to eternal suckage for wanting to keep a VIDEO GAME fresh and fun to play?

[bigolbear]

Heroic elite also doesnt prepare people for epic elite. The other difficulties feel about the same. EN feels like HN, EH feels like HH, but HE doesnt prepare folks for EE.

A newer player who ran most of the heroic stuff on elite might expect epic content on elite to be similar, and they are in for a rude awakening.

Chai has a very good point here.
Its not just newer players too, expienced players who typicaly play all heroic content on elite wont touch epic elite.

Its silly mode - simply put: it encourages exploiting tactics in the same way the old epics did. That does not equate to challenege necessarily.

I recognise that it should exist, there are always going to be those players that are at the top of the curve and seeking challenge. My feeling tho is that there should be an extra level of dificulty for epics.

Tone down epic elite so its comparable for an epic character to heroic elite - ie a first lifer with good gear and the right feats can hit viable DC's, and spell pen. I think its mostly a problem for casters, the difference in numbers for a mele is much smaller and more dependant on gear than past lives.

Add in a super challenge mode that offers the same rewards and favour as epic elite, and is there solely as braggng rights for the top players - call it nightmare mode or something. With this there doesnt have to be any expectation of viable completion, it rely can be a true challenge for the best of the best.


Ultimately tho, its all a matter of design.
There are better ways to challenge players than simply turning everythign up to 11.
eg:
npc that needs to be cared for = challenge.
mixing enemies that have synergistic skills and imunities = challenge.
antimagic, dispells and resistant/imune enemies = challenge.
timed sceanrios = challenge.
limited resources = challenge. (no sp pot drinking would be a good start on elites.)
3d maps and confusing environs = challenge.
enemies that hit you with status effects = challenge.

perching on a high spot and taking 15 minutes to kill a 5 million hp boss in complete safety is not a challenge it is simply dull.

[Cyr]

I asked for UNBUFFED intell and you are adding buffs...............This right here is what is wrong with a large portion of the stuff that's posted on this forum. People include buffs that not everyone has access to, only to make it sound that everyone SHOULD have them. When people do that when they talk numbers, but leave it out, it causes confusion and distorts the information.


He included no short term buffs or party member dependent buffs that I saw.

He included ship buffs...hardly a high bar thing to include for endgame content.

He also included yugo pots...it's a basic favor reward that is not very tough at all to get now with the extreme power granted by epic destinies.

Those are standard to include in these types of breakdowns.

[Ape_Man]

Its silly mode - simply put: it encourages exploiting tactics in the same way the old epics did. That does not equate to challenege necessarily . . .

Finally a post back on topic . . . and spot on.

[bibliomane]

If you are determined to do content on an arcane in such a way that requires a certain DC (you can do it without an arcane), yet are unwilling to put in the work to get gear or plat to buy gear, that content isn't for you.

Gear or plat are achiviements that are worked for, not handed to you on a platter. If you are willing to put in time and effort then you will eventually gear out your toon. Time does not always = good result. I've made several gimp toons--I know lots of things that don't work. (I claim amnesia on the dex based monk...I have no idea how that happened.) If you only have 4 hours a week to play, then YES it is going to take you longer than someone who playes ...eerm I'm not saying b/c it is a crazy lot, but I do have a life... hours a week to gear her toon. You shouldn't write people who play more off, we like the game as much if not more than you do.

Did I pay to win? No, I'm P2P, I only use tp to pacs, cosmetic gear, and such. I learned and geared my toons by practicing, grinding, and playing. As with any skill or hobby, you have to work at it to achieve your goals. Skipping the learning phase (not having the propper gear/plat is a learning phase) is downright dumb. You need to learn what does and does not work (more ways than one, go forth and play till you figure it out,) and how to play the game to your best advantage and type of fun. If you are having trouble gear/plat farming and still cannot complete quests, then the EE quest isn't what you are having problems with and you have other issues that you need to address first.

Shortly after the expansion and the 16 stoners, I ran into a 19 wizard in the town eveningstar quests. He did not have deathblock, was a drow archmage, no umd, no pots, 0 fort, and no aggro managment. He did not carry discoball, firewall, or ice storm. He spent most of the quest being rez'd by me. I spoke to him after it and learned that he had played for a few weeks, stoned and was on his brothers account b/c it had the expansion. At that point, I realized that it was not his fault that he was unhappy and playing poorly to his and other's standards. Turbine and we as a community has let this boy (college age I think?) move into content he wasn't ready for. He had bypassed every stage where he could have learned something and ended up wanting to quit the game. I spoke to him for a bit about game mechanics and advised him to go back to the lower levels and 'graduate' in difficulty.

I'm giving you the same advice. When you have these type of symptoms, sometimes there is an underlying problem. Why can't you gear your toon? What is preventing you from getting the gear or plat to buy the gear? IF the quests take you too long to play, why are they taking longer than they have to? Are you running content that doesn't drop high return vendor or AH loot? Are you running content that doesn't drop +3 tomes? No one is going to hand you a trophy for existing; work out what the underlying problem is and then you can be happy with your toon.

[LOOON375]

Yes, but any idiot can get 56-57 INT in the current game with barely any work. Still trying to figure out if you are calling yourself an idiot since you hit those numbers or players like me that haven't hit that number yet. Im assuming the latter.

This is also another issue that is wrong with these forums. It's how a certain group look down upon another group because certain people don't have what they already have.

All I did was ask how to achieve those numbers and you told me what I was looking for. I asked what I was missing and you pointed me in the right direction.

Nowhere did I insult you or insinuate you were lying or anything.......that warranted you calling me or anyone an idiot. All I did was ask questions.

And for wanting to know, Im an idiot? sweet.

[Chette]

Epic elite is perfect, what is broken is epic hard.
Currently epic hard should be epic normal, and epic hard should be about half-way between current epic hard and epic elite. Running epic hard in its current state makes people lazy and overconfident and convinces them that their 400 hp no AC no defense 100 DPS character is amazing.

[Persiflage]

OK, so now you have to be a human, Yugoloth potions is not the easiest to attain at 20 (maybe by 25), have yet to see a +8 item though they might be plentiful by the time I'm 25, have yet to see a +3 tome but I might be running all the wrong quests, you cannot be an archmage if you want (I went PM, but what if someone WANTS to be an archmage?), 6 from Epic destiny (which I assume I will have by 25)... I still stand by my statement that that is a lot to have to get to have "gimp" stats, by your measure, though I will appreciate that you broke it down.

My wizzy is a 1st-life WF Archmage. I consider myself to be doing pretty well to have hit 50 Int, before Store or Yugo pots. Similarly, I don't consider a 51 Necro DC to be worthy of scorn on such a toon, but it's not good enough for EE nonetheless. But then, I guess I fall into the lazy gimp category so it's hardly surprising.

All that notwithstanding, I really hate the "multiply all the numbers by 5, add immunities and walk away" approach to EE design, for pretty much all the reasons others have listed.

Even Ape Man, which I *still* find surprising ;)

[Vellrad]

Well, I complain about DC required, because on the same time, AC is so low, that my gimped bard/ftr is always hitting on 2s, with power attack enabled. I don't know how much do I need to get enough on wizard for EE, but on melee, its way too easy.

[Persiflage]

Hi again. Feel free to look me up on any of my toons anytime and we can organise some EEs to get you comfortable.

That is a grand offer and I appreciate it greatly. All the more because I do (very occasionally) spot groups up run by Khyber "pro's", but never join them, on the grounds that spending an hour of my life being told what a useless waste of space I am doesn't really appeal. Of course, it's possible that people are a bit more, well, person-like when you group with them, but when all you've got to go on is "forum-face"... ;)


I've only gone to tier 2 earth cloak on my archer but it makes a noticeable difference everything considered, it's also important to have a source of exceptional tactics for EEs. I get ghostly on epic ring of the stalker but that's another challenge item but well worth it again. Challenges are simple to farm on a monk if you get the hang of them, again though I've only bothered with a tier 2 stalker ring.

Bear cloak, spare hand, stalker ring... looks like you'd almost be better off teaching me to run challenges than walking me through EE's ;)


Stunning fist DC is important too. Grave Wrappings or better for +10, +5 or better exceptional from spare hand or bear cloak (dun robar ring is in too important a slot - 1 slot should be a holy bursted ToD ring and the other either a stalker ring or an avithoul seal in almost all cases). I think Newtou-1's SF DC is 10+12 levels+10 wraps+6 legendary tactics+5 spare hand+3 GMoF+15 wisdom+2 fighter dil=63 in water stance with yugo pot maybe.

Do you have yugo pots yet?

Nope. I'm not even flagged for ToD on that toon; I can't find anyone to run them with and don't know the quests... Not that I've seen a ToD LFM up during my gaming times for weeks!

I can hit a self+ship-buffed DC of 59 without Yugo pots or Exceptional Combat Mastery. If I could somehow find and slot +3 insightful Wis and put +1 exceptional on my Buccaneer's Ring I'd hit 60, 61 with Yugo pots. Kukan-Do would lag at 57-58. The Adamantine version of the cloak would take it to 67 (max 64 K-D). Still worth the slog?


I think New's wis is 16+3 time+2 enh+8 item+2 ins+1 exc+1 LotD+3 GMoF+2 yugo+2 ship+2 alchemical=42. This is pretty extreme in terms of gear but he does have 18 rogue levels and less wisdom than a pure monk accordingly so you have some wiggle room. New's SF DC is a bit overkill mind, I think a good target is about 60 I just have to try a bit harder as New doesn't have much else if in an off destiny so needs the SF to land sort of thing while as a monk you have a few more tricks available.

Thankfully, my running in an off-destiny is all done on this toon (although there's still some debate in my mind over what an on-destiny is when GMoF's DPS is about a quarter that of FotW for me) as I've hit L5 on everything. I'll obviously grab the new destiny when it goes live, but it won't give me any more utility fate-point-wise unless I want to lose my Sense Weakness twist. :/

So, thank you very much indeed: in the unlikely event that we're both online and able to play at the same time, I will gladly take you up on your offer and I'd give you another +1 if I could. Apparently I have to find some other people to be nice to first ;)

[Shade]

My wizzy is a 1st-life WF Archmage. I consider myself to be doing pretty well to have hit 50 Int, before Store or Yugo pots. Similarly, I don't consider a 51 Necro DC to be worthy of scorn on such a toon, but it's not good enough for EE nonetheless. But then, I guess I fall into the lazy gimp category so it's hardly surprising.

All that notwithstanding, I really hate the "multiply all the numbers by 5, add immunities and walk away" approach to EE design, for pretty much all the reasons others have listed.

Even Ape Man, which I *still* find surprising ;)

Gimp: Assuming the only valid/effective approach to win an EE quest is to get your insta kill DCs into the stratosphere.

My sorcerer has DCs in the um 35-38 range for all execept evocation (which is still only around 44) and he is insanely powerful in EE quests, outkilling him is next to impossible. He has no insta kill spells loaded aside from pwk.

Wizards can do exactly the same as I know many (well a couple anyways, wish there were more) who compete with me, not using insta kills.

Think of other EDs, other spells you could use to dominate the quests and you can utterly dominate EEs and you will REALLY understand why "multiply by 5" is just the bare minimum needed to really even begin to challenge players who really take the time to learn the most effective spells to crush quests with.

Sure other things above and beyond that would be better, but higher stats are neccesary as the baseline to increase difficulty. And I have no idea what your talking about "immunities" given how many thousands of times they nerfed epic immunities. Zero remain that are different from EH, and the only one on EH that remains thats at all relevant is deathblock on orange named only, which imo, that and more is REQUIRED if they at all care to make miniboses non-trival.

re: EDA ee you mentioned was tough..
Best spells there so many players wrongly believe is wail and fod.
In reality they are:
Ottos Sphere
Crushing Despair, and the occasional mass hold

Insta kills can be incredibly effective, but they aren't theo nly router. And they tend to be a difficult one to make functional for a reason - once they are functional, they trivialize content, harshly, and dont play nicely with other clases. While traditional nukes dont do that, and do stack well with any other damage dealer.

And yea im on khyber as well, so if you see any of my EE lfms (will be rare these days tell U16 hits) send me a tell, and mention your forum name and ill gladly you show you alternate ways to win on a arcane.

[wax_on_wax_off]

That is a grand offer and I appreciate it greatly. All the more because I do (very occasionally) spot groups up run by Khyber "pro's", but never join them, on the grounds that spending an hour of my life being told what a useless waste of space I am doesn't really appeal. Of course, it's possible that people are a bit more, well, person-like when you group with them, but when all you've got to go on is "forum-face"... ;)

Bear cloak, spare hand, stalker ring... looks like you'd almost be better off teaching me to run challenges than walking me through EE's ;)

Nope. I'm not even flagged for ToD on that toon; I can't find anyone to run them with and don't know the quests... Not that I've seen a ToD LFM up during my gaming times for weeks!

I can hit a self+ship-buffed DC of 59 without Yugo pots or Exceptional Combat Mastery. If I could somehow find and slot +3 insightful Wis and put +1 exceptional on my Buccaneer's Ring I'd hit 60, 61 with Yugo pots. Kukan-Do would lag at 57-58. The Adamantine version of the cloak would take it to 67 (max 64 K-D). Still worth the slog?

Thankfully, my running in an off-destiny is all done on this toon (although there's still some debate in my mind over what an on-destiny is when GMoF's DPS is about a quarter that of FotW for me) as I've hit L5 on everything. I'll obviously grab the new destiny when it goes live, but it won't give me any more utility fate-point-wise unless I want to lose my Sense Weakness twist. :/

So, thank you very much indeed: in the unlikely event that we're both online and able to play at the same time, I will gladly take you up on your offer and I'd give you another +1 if I could. Apparently I have to find some other people to be nice to first ;)

I have all the time in the world for people who express an interest in learning the game but the expression is important.

Yep challenges are where it's at. Seems like a tier 2 stalker ring and a tier 2 bear cloak are in your future, I'd save tier 3 for those inevitable runs where you're showing other people how they're run or are just tagging along for the ride.

With a destiny capped level 25 monk you should be able to solo elite Amrath if you so desire. Most of the quests are straight forward except for genesis point, pull up ddowiki for that one and follow it. New Invasion is a bit tricky with the traps but I'm sure you can figure it out. Post an IP LFM and I'm sure you'll end up with a few pikers along ;)

+3 insightful wis will go on spiderspun Caparison when you can upgrade it with PDK favour.

Happy to show challenges but they are really straight forward. The biggest obstacle will be the massive over level penalty you get for running the level 20 cannith challenges to get the base item, at that point its equivalent to running it at the minimum level - but hey, easy to learn then. Again, DDOwiki is your friend (and online all the time unlike me).

See you around.
Cheers,
Wowo

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm curious just what kind of tactics would people not consider to be lame tactics?


Sadly, I often see only two "tactics" used in DDO.
Charge in and swing as fast as you can. (helps to grind quests for gear first)
and find a safe spot to nuke it from when charging in doesn't work.


I am more a fan of CC spells. fighting in doorways, around corners.. moving, using terrain to limit the number of attacks I receive. (not safe spots, but if they are there and things are too tough, I'll certainly use them too.)

Intimidating is not lame IMO.

neither is blocking, in itself.... but I do wish Turbine would make monsters smarter and not only go after one guy who they cannot get to.

Blocking should be a perfectly fine tactic. Nothing wrong with it.
It is the stupid "I will only attack that guy" AI that is the problem.

same with monsters standing in firewalls, running back and forth through blade barriers.
It's not the players fault for those lame tactics.

Most monsters should have a ranged attack option. Not all, but most.
so there should be no totally "safe" spots.

and they should either be able to jump to the same places we can, or be smart enough to simple move away until we come back down to fight them.

overused safe spots should be removed IMO. But terrain should be allowed to be used during fights.

actually, "overused" is my definition for a lot of problems.
anytime every group you run in insists on using the exact same "tactic" to complete a dungeon, I think that situation should be changed. (since the players themselves will not self-regulate things like that.)

I have no problem with "hey look SmartWizard found a safe spot and is nuking the hell out of that boss!"

But when every single group yells at me to get in the specific safe spot and do not attack the boss, there is a problem.

Anyway, I sorta support boss immunities. Cause if not, we would have LFMs for a specific build to use a specific "tactic" on ths boss.
be that DC 100 Hold Person, or Trip or whatever else they think will disable a boss...

so, I guess it is a good thing that they have immunities.
but that does limit the tactics that can be used.

I think monsters should be able to go anywhere we can go.

Monsters should not stay focussed on hurting a character that they cannot reach.

Monsters should have a danger sense, to move away when they take too much damage from something... (I don't stand in Firewalls, I do not run back and forth through Blade Bariers, I do not stand still and let archers shoot me over and over again. Neither should they.)

And most monsters should have an effective ranged attack. (if it makes sense for that monster to have one... Dogs don't suddenly pull out crossbows for instance, Drow guys with big Scimitars, do...)

[Ape_Man]

I'm curious just what kind of tactics would people not consider to be lame tactics?

let's break it down . . .



Sadly, I often see only two "tactics" used in DDO.
Charge in and swing as fast as you can. (helps to grind quests for gear first)
and find a safe spot to nuke it from when charging in doesn't work.

Safespots = lame.



I am more a fan of CC spells. fighting in doorways, around corners.. moving, using terrain to limit the number of attacks I receive. (not safe spots, but if they are there and things are too tough, I'll certainly use them too.)

Not lame, unless it involves perches.



Intimidating is not lame IMO.

neither is blocking, in itself.... but I do wish Turbine would make monsters smarter and not only go after one guy who they cannot get to.

Blocking should be a perfectly fine tactic. Nothing wrong with it.
It is the stupid "I will only attack that guy" AI that is the problem.

I'm torn on this and one of the toons in my stable is a 105+ intimidate stalwart. . . it's extremely artificial as are all aggro mechanics but I guess they are a necessary evil in MMOs.



same with monsters standing in firewalls, running back and forth through blade barriers.
It's not the players fault for those lame tactics.

No, this is lame. Anything that would only work because of the AI's incredibly stupid AI is lame.



Most monsters should have a ranged attack option. Not all, but most.
so there should be no totally "safe" spots.

and they should either be able to jump to the same places we can, or be smart enough to simple move away until we come back down to fight them.

overused safe spots should be removed IMO. But terrain should be allowed to be used during fights.

actually, "overused" is my definition for a lot of problems.
anytime every group you run in insists on using the exact same "tactic" to complete a dungeon, I think that situation should be changed. (since the players themselves will not self-regulate things like that.)

I have no problem with "hey look SmartWizard found a safe spot and is nuking the hell out of that boss!"

But when every single group yells at me to get in the specific safe spot and do not attack the boss, there is a problem.

Safe spots = lame.

Monsters not being able to hit back = lame.



Anyway, I sorta support boss immunities. Cause if not, we would have LFMs for a specific build to use a specific "tactic" on ths boss.
be that DC 100 Hold Person, or Trip or whatever else they think will disable a boss...

so, I guess it is a good thing that they have immunities.
but that does limit the tactics that can be used.

The immunities need to be there or the content would be even more trivial.



I think monsters should be able to go anywhere we can go.

Monsters should not stay focussed on hurting a character that they cannot reach.

Monsters should have a danger sense, to move away when they take too much damage from something... (I don't stand in Firewalls, I do not run back and forth through Blade Bariers, I do not stand still and let archers shoot me over and over again. Neither should they.)

And most monsters should have an effective ranged attack. (if it makes sense for that monster to have one... Dogs don't suddenly pull out crossbows for instance, Drow guys with big Scimitars, do...)

If this were the case and there were no safe-spots we would have a better game and maybe some of the stuff I consider stupid in EE (mobs bosses hitting for insane amounts of melee damage) wouldn't be "needed."

[Bergie]

To ApeMan:
It is hard to get the luck on +8 loot drops or the money claimed for it in the ah if you do not have the account infrastructure for doing loot runs.

The time is missing. That simple. F2p account, 2 character slots. No Haggle Bard, no experience to the game, starting from 0. Your breakdown applies to vet-players only. Still, you either grind for specific items or for the money to buy them.

And stop using terms like cheap. That is depending according to your available money in total anyways. It varies from 1 CP to 4,3 mio. PP. So what exactly is cheap? On orien you see insane prices for those cheap insightful stat+3 armors. And by insane I mean 1,2 mio. PP. That is not cheap. That is 1/3 of the total PP cap. Personally I call myself rich if I have 400k PP on a semi permanent base.

So please define cheap for the whole server and as an absolutum. You won't be able to ;).

Ypu are wrong. Although I do not often agree with monkey, sorry Ape_Man, he is correct.

They are THAT cheap! The key to easy plat is knowing what to run. You can easily farm 200k plat an hour...EASY! On a 1st life toon, I promise you.

Example of gear I have on my toon that i got off AH, and was too lazy to farm :

Leaves of Forest : +3 wis and +3 con ....500K on AH
+8 wis, +6 prot, medium slot neck...400k on AH
Staff of necromancer...+3 Necro DC...200k plat

You can farm enough plat to buy these in no time flat, AND still have fun doing so...

If you are on Cannith, look me up...Zorian...I can show you how/where to farm the plat quick...

[Hsoftl]

Well, the discussion seems to have strayed from an EE disscussion, to the best way to build a mage, so lets try to get it back on track. While EE is fun, i feel that at times some quests are too easy, and some are way to difficult, i mean take EE DQ, its a joke, get a tank in the grp, and you can get a pug grp to kill her, reason why its so easy is because of the relative few mobs that spawn, that make the grp more disorganized, and disorganization, along with lack of experience is what makes most pug grps fail, and that is why guild grps or private grps do much better. It also seems that ppl have forgetten epic. Or to put to better words, what epic used to be like. Most people dont understand what it meant to have a Epic Envenomed Cloak pre U15. One thing that needs to change about epic is that they need to put the timers back on, and change EH difficulty to what it used to be back when epics first launched. EN needs to be the difficulty of EH, and EC needs to be EN. Epic wards also need to be put back in, because a super high necro DC doesnt mean your a good mage. I play a rogue for example, and what i find is that with his DPS, assassination is almost worthless except what it was meant for: mages. If your wail kills 5 monsters out of 10, theres still 5 more left, and you cant do any damage to them now, because you foucused only on necro.