The new end game...

[jortann]

Hey Everyone!

I was inspired by a thread yesterday. It got me thinking about how the game has changed. I know many of us fear change, but the one thing that never changes is .... there will always be change.

One of the things that has changed for me is end game. This is how the game was for me pre-MOTU...

I worked really hard to get my toons ready for epics. That meant having a good build and finding the right gear. It meant grinding out your rings from ToD. Then you needed a good group of friends to carry you through the first few epics just to get a feel for them. As you got more brave you started farming those epics in hopes of getting together those elusive pieces for your first Epic item.

Then you began to think about past lives. Having that wizard past life for that extra DC and +2 spell penetration was totally worth the grind of another 20 levels. And why? Because you wanted to be just that little bit better for Epics. Epics were tough and you could get your butt handed to you in a hurry if you were not prepared. Then being more prepared you could get begin searching for more Epic pieces.

That was the game for me Pre-MOTU.

I must admit that Post-MOTU I am struggling a little bit to find purpose. Let me explain...

Epics have changed. They are no longer feared like the beasts they used to be. They have been tamed. The beast that I once feared, I now solo easily. (And don’t get me wrong.... I'm not complaining here. This is just the facts. Epics have changed.)

Not only have Epics been given an easier setting, the Epic items that they offered have been de-valued. They are still powerful, but there are easier ways now get very comparable gear. For example, ToD rings were the place to get that +2 exceptional stat. Flagging for ToD, running the raid and getting that lucky pull or roll to get your ring, was a journey. Now you just need to get some commendations and turn them in for comparable gear. And now you can also farm a few chests in the MOTU pack and get +8 items. (Again, not complaining. Just stating the fact that there is a greater availability of very nice gear. The availability of gear has changed.)

Then there are Epic Destinies. Which I think are very cool. You can increase the power of your character in a variety of ways. This is a nice addition to the game.

So, now let me get back to my question of purpose. After I get my Epic destiny, after I get my new gear and I am this ultra powerful character, what am I supposed to do? What have I prepared myself for?

And for me the answer is not Epic Elite. I have run some Epic Elites and while they are challenging, I don't see the point. It’s not like a rare scroll or piece of gear might drop that I could not just get on a normal difficulty.

So my question for all of you fine forum folks is.... What is end game for you now?


PS - just to clarify... this is not another, "The game is broke DOOOoooOoOooOoooOoOoooM thread". So please keep your comments along the line as to what are you doing now at end game.

Thanks.

I look forward to all of your responses.

[Loromir]

I would say Completionist should be your next goal...but many people have already acheived that. So, IMO absolute end of life for a toon would be:

Completionist
Maxed out destinies
Maxed out twists
Best in slot gear
+5 Tomes in all stats
Max Favor

My guess is there are a few out there who have achieved this (Sans the +5 Tomes). I am not one of those.

[Ranncore]

End-game in DDO now is farming hard (which should clearly be called casual).

Or farming the same content again on a TR.

[Inferno346]

It is soloing or short-manning epic elites and raids.

[Grosbeak07]

There is no end game in any MMO.

Remember when Gianthold was end game?

LFM's of Reaver 1 of 7? As more content is added, End Game changes, sometimes good, sometimes not-so-good. 6 months from now things may be very different again.

[Postumus]

Lots of folks have pointed out that epic hard should probably be harder.

Hopefully new content will be challenging for maxed out EDs, but now that the gear grind has changed from pre MoTU, Isuspect folks who race to the end just won.t have much to do

[TBot1234]

IMO absolute end of life for a toon would be:

Completionist
Maxed out destinies
Maxed out twists
Best in slot gear
+5 Tomes in all stats
Max Favor



Sounds about right. Add in some 3x past lives for certain classes and this summarizes my to-do list.

[Diyon]

Well, we ARE starting to see said rare drops for Epic Elite coming it. U15 and U16 both have named drops types based on difficulty. But I do see your point, other than the potential fun of running stuff EE, the rewards are largely what you could get on EH or whatever. This wasn't the same preU14 where running it below epic doesn't accomplish any of the same rewards you get on epic.

I think the solution is to vary overall quest difficulties a little more, maybe make epic hard a little harder in general. In other words, EH for one quest of a given lvl shouldn't always be about the same as another. Some quests on all of their difficulties should be sometimes harder than an equivalent. We have some of that now in end game, but its small. A good example of this is something like Proof is in the Poison. Its harder than most other lvl4 quests. We need more things like that at end game.

[MrkGrismer]

End game for me used to be starting a new character in a new slot. As I had no desire to spend endless hours grinding frustrating content to get a slightly better item to spend endless hours grinding frustrating content to get a slightly better item.

Now, I don't know, I still have a couple of characters that haven't reached epic levels yet, and a whole lot of characters that are in the Epic Levels having a good time with exploring new content with no real end in sight. I will probably even delay purchasing the U16 pack a bit because I haven't gotten a single character to level 23 yet (my highest is at level 22).

[Expalphalog]

Let me start by saying that what I offer is not so much a solution as it is a personal restriction.

I have restricted myself to one Destiny per life. No Twists. Then, when I get bored of that toon, I'll TR into a completely different build that will level into a different Destiny.

This way, I'll be at least on my 11th life and have experimented with 11 unique builds before I've unlocked all the Destinies.

Of course, this does inhibit my abilities somewhat when I'm running around as an un-twisted level 25 in the pre-boredom phase of my plan, but at least it'll be a long time before I start to feel like I've run out of stuff to do.

[der_kluge]

To crush my enemies
To see them driven before me
... and to hear the lamentation of their women!

[Loromir]

Well, we ARE starting to see said rare drops for Epic Elite coming it. U15 and U16 both have named drops types based on difficulty. But I do see your point, other than the potential fun of running stuff EE, the rewards are largely what you could get on EH or whatever. This wasn't the same preU14 where running it below epic doesn't accomplish any of the same rewards you get on epic.

I think the solution is to vary overall quest difficulties a little more, maybe make epic hard a little harder in general. In other words, EH for one quest of a given lvl shouldn't always be about the same as another. Some quests on all of their difficulties should be sometimes harder than an equivalent. We have some of that now in end game, but its small. A good example of this is something like Proof is in the Poison. Its harder than most other lvl4 quests. We need more things like that at end game.


How about Epic Proof is in the Poison? Surely that would be a challenge.

[Isolani]

Lots of folks have pointed out that epic hard should probably be harder.

Hopefully new content will be challenging for maxed out EDs, but now that the gear grind has changed from pre MoTU, Isuspect folks who race to the end just won.t have much to do

I don't think the quest settings are really the problem. Even during heroic levels there isn't a huge difference between normal and hard setting for most quests. The problem with epic levels is that the destinies are such a huge power increase that everything just seems easy except for epic elite. It isn't really that the quests are too easy, our characters just get strong so fast it seems stupid easy. Even a first life character will have the gear and destinies to make epic hard seem easy within a week of L20+ questing.

Some of the old epics are significantly tougher on hard compared to normal also, but the MotU quests there is hardly any difference between normal and hard aside from the bosses having quite a bit more hp.

[DoctorWhofan]

What's endgame again?

I reached it once, and I was so depressed, I left the game for a year. My main will level even more slowly while working on my alts.

My current endgame is to get to endgame with a 6 year old trapmonkey rogue/ranger who is a 28 point build. SHe is alot more fun that she was 4 years ago.

[Daemoneyes]

I like the "Endgame" as it is for me atm.
My situation may be a bit unique but i am sure there are other that dont have the Expansion pack or Epic Destinies.
I run atm old Epics which are for me quite new and soloing Epic Hard is the first time really hard (Well at least if u try to not drink SP pots ^^) when you know the quest and the tricks it gets easier and easier.
Till it gets boring like Partycrashers, can solo it with full grp on hard, "yawn" but possible even without ED and such new shiny stuff.

I tried some Epic Elite but the saves there are to high for my necro DC40

So ill run now epics till i either have my concops and a bit more equip for TR'ing my other chars or till i get bored. Anyway ill wait with that till Mabar cause i really need 3 Robes =)

So plenty for me to do
only thing that could be a bit better is a trading system for seals and shards.
Other then that i am happy atm.


Endgame in a mmo is always what you make of it,
can be boring or can be fun, your decision.

[Diyon]

I don't think the quest settings are really the problem. Even during heroic levels there isn't a huge difference between normal and hard setting for most quests. The problem with epic levels is that the destinies are such a huge power increase that everything just seems easy except for epic elite. It isn't really that the quests are too easy, our characters just get strong so fast it seems stupid easy. Even a first life character will have the gear and destinies to make epic hard seem easy within a week of L20+ questing.

Some of the old epics are significantly tougher on hard compared to normal also, but the MotU quests there is hardly any difference between normal and hard aside from the bosses having quite a bit more hp.

This is all much the same thing. Quest difficulty is effectively quest power vs character power. Changing either one of these will change the difficulty. Saying Epic Hard is not hard enough for our characters and Our characters are too powerful for Epic Hard pretty much amounts to the same thing effectively.

[Daemoneyes]

This is all much the same thing. Quest difficulty is effectively quest power vs character power. Changing either one of these will change the difficulty. Saying Epic Hard is not hard enough for our characters and Our characters are too powerful for Epic Hard pretty much amounts to the same thing effectively.

Well easy solution, nerf ED.
Cause u cant make eHard much harder or all without ED cannot play them.

[Diyon]

Well easy solution, nerf ED.
Cause u cant make eHard much harder or all without ED cannot play them.

Fair point. On the other hand, I don't think it was a good idea to make getting destinies optional. IMO, the destinies should be available to everyone, or they shouldn't base difficulties on those without it (and that's really what most of the game already does if you think about it. Most of the higher lvl content released assumes you have access to various epic gear, greensteel, raid loot, named items, etc).

[scottmike0]

Fair point. On the other hand, I don't think it was a good idea to make getting destinies optional. IMO, the destinies should be available to everyone, or they shouldn't base difficulties on those without it (and that's really what most of the game already does if you think about it. Most of the higher lvl content released assumes you have access to various epic gear, greensteel, raid loot, named items, etc).

yeah i'd agree to make destinies less powerful, and improve each and every quest by a higher cr...
If a monk can instant kill a thing with 1 move... then a barb can... then what does this tell ya..
the Cr rating for the enemies are tooo low.. not enough hit points...
Sure there is going to be complainers complaining how damage is not just, but that just how the game is....
My advise is to make the Cr rating for each monster in epic hard
Higher than what is it. And as well as nerfing Destinies... There should not be more than 3 at most instant kills...
1 each for caster..
1 for monk
1 for rouge...
0 for the rest....
Edit: Read the Reason for Editing..

[Daemoneyes]

Fair point. On the other hand, I don't think it was a good idea to make getting destinies optional. IMO, the destinies should be available to everyone, or they shouldn't base difficulties on those without it (and that's really what most of the game already does if you think about it. Most of the higher lvl content released assumes you have access to various epic gear, greensteel, raid loot, named items, etc).

most stuff is based to be playable without ED (or those Casuals with ED),
so those few % hardcores yawn at Epic Hard cause the rush through it without stopping.

For me is not Epic Hard difficulty the problem.
(there are enough mediocre player that even with ED have a hard time in eHard)
the real problem is that hardcore player run Epic Hard cause they got nothing to win from running Epic Elite.

Make Epic Elite worthwhile and most of them will stop ranting.

[Diyon]

most stuff is based to be playable without ED (or those Casuals with ED),
so those few % hardcores yawn at Epic Hard cause the rush through it without stopping.

For me is not Epic Hard difficulty the problem.
(there are enough mediocre player that even with ED have a hard time in eHard)
the real problem is that hardcore player run Epic Hard cause they got nothing to win from running Epic Elite.

Make Epic Elite worthwhile and most of them will stop ranting.

Also a fair point. I agree.

[bartharok]

if epic elite is made worthwhile, most of the ranters will just find something else to rant about. Its not the problems, its the atttÃ*tude

[njneer75]

To crush my enemies
To see them driven before me
... and to hear the lamentation of their women!

Havent seen it and years but who could ever forget young Arnold when he could barely speak english

[Sarnind]

the end game of ddo id dying with motu and these stupid EN , EH difficulties, the real end game is TRing atm.

[Singular]

Well easy solution, nerf ED.
Cause u cant make eHard much harder or all without ED cannot play them.

How about just adding another difficulty level between EH and EE, perhaps by toning down EE a bit and then making Epic Epic.

:)

[Singular]

Hey Everyone!

I was inspired by a thread yesterday. It got me thinking about how the game has changed. I know many of us fear change, but the one thing that never changes is .... there will always be change.

One of the things that has changed for me is end game. This is how the game was for me pre-MOTU...

I worked really hard to get my toons ready for epics. That meant having a good build and finding the right gear. It meant grinding out your rings from ToD. Then you needed a good group of friends to carry you through the first few epics just to get a feel for them. As you got more brave you started farming those epics in hopes of getting together those elusive pieces for your first Epic item.

Then you began to think about past lives. Having that wizard past life for that extra DC and +2 spell penetration was totally worth the grind of another 20 levels. And why? Because you wanted to be just that little bit better for Epics. Epics were tough and you could get your butt handed to you in a hurry if you were not prepared. Then being more prepared you could get begin searching for more Epic pieces.

That was the game for me Pre-MOTU.

I must admit that Post-MOTU I am struggling a little bit to find purpose. Let me explain...

Epics have changed. They are no longer feared like the beasts they used to be. They have been tamed. The beast that I once feared, I now solo easily. (And don’t get me wrong.... I'm not complaining here. This is just the facts. Epics have changed.)

Not only have Epics been given an easier setting, the Epic items that they offered have been de-valued. They are still powerful, but there are easier ways now get very comparable gear. For example, ToD rings were the place to get that +2 exceptional stat. Flagging for ToD, running the raid and getting that lucky pull or roll to get your ring, was a journey. Now you just need to get some commendations and turn them in for comparable gear. And now you can also farm a few chests in the MOTU pack and get +8 items. (Again, not complaining. Just stating the fact that there is a greater availability of very nice gear. The availability of gear has changed.)

Then there are Epic Destinies. Which I think are very cool. You can increase the power of your character in a variety of ways. This is a nice addition to the game.

So, now let me get back to my question of purpose. After I get my Epic destiny, after I get my new gear and I am this ultra powerful character, what am I supposed to do? What have I prepared myself for?

And for me the answer is not Epic Elite. I have run some Epic Elites and while they are challenging, I don't see the point. It’s not like a rare scroll or piece of gear might drop that I could not just get on a normal difficulty.

So my question for all of you fine forum folks is.... What is end game for you now?


PS - just to clarify... this is not another, "The game is broke DOOOoooOoOooOoooOoOoooM thread". So please keep your comments along the line as to what are you doing now at end game.

Thanks.

I look forward to all of your responses.

I'm a bit different than you. I ran a few epics before MOTU, but found them kind of boring. It was kind of nice on a dps the first few times, since you got to attack something for a very long time - and you needed all the members in your group to work together, but that got old since it was always "dance it till it drops". Anyways, I found them quite boring b/c no xp, so I just TR'd after a few. They honestly didn't seem like I needed the best gear to run them (on a sorc, ranger and fighter), but I didn't run as many as you.

I fail to understand, though, how you can say "old epics were fun b/c they were extremely difficult, requiring lots of gear, but I don't like new epic elites b/c they are too difficult for little gain."

I'm sorry, it seems like a contradiction. I suppose your argument is that new high power items drop too easily and that high-power ones you have to grind for aren't so much better than other drops to justify the grind. So DDO has its hours/efficacy not efficiently tuned. Do you think that'll change?