WF AM 18/2 vs pure for casual epic

[dajg]

I am about to cap my tr1 warforged archmage. I am a casual player - I TRed him in January. I PUG or solo exclusively. Currently 17wiz/1arti (1 wiz past life) with level 19 banked and almost at 20. I always planned to LR him to make him pure and purchased a +1 heart last time they were on sale. However the expansion pack has happened and the "new" epics are out.
My experience of epics was pretty wide playing most of the old ones on my cleric including eChrono and epic devil assualt which I didn't find too hard. As I understand it the new epic hard is easier than these. I would mostly be running epic hard/normal although I would like to throw in the odd elite when needed. I realise EE will take some grind to get the right twists (+2 fate tome purchase already last time they were on sale).
Now I am in a dilemma, do I go pure 20 wiz or do I LR the arti level in rogue and take rogue at 19 or 20 to give an 18/2 wiz/rogue.
18/2 gives evasion and trap skills - excellent abilities for PUGS and solo content. Likely to mean I never die.
20 wiz give +2 int (+1dcs) +2 spell penetration and a few more spell points and spells.
I've got some decent gear (conc opp, epic shamans band, bracers of the glacier, +9int GS etc.) and should be able to grind out some more epic stuff pretty easily if my past experience is anything to go by.
Also what is the current status of instakills in epic - do they work on normal mobs with full hps - or is there an epic ward in place? If so which 2 of conj/enchant/necro do I want to specialise in?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Definitely go pure.

In EH/EN/EC quests being pure will let you be in any destiny that you like and still bypass SR and have all your spells land (as a generalisation).

In EE it will give the possibility to bypass all SR with the right gear and twists.

No contest.

[Eldried]

My Main us a WF 18 WIzard/2 Rogue and I think its worth it. Sure your DC and Spell Pen is a bit lower and you have less mana, but overall evasion rocks and being able to do traps is a nice addition to.

I have around 2600 Mana, DC 50 Necro, 52/53 Spell Pen, 52+ Reflex and around 700 HP. Im also Palemaster, but thats a matter of preference. Archmage is probably just as good.

I use the Sorc Epic Destily for extra Damage which works great(Enegy Vortex/Aura/Dragon Breath).



Spell pen is no problem for me, even on epic elite, but I have 3 wizzy past lives and 3 favoured soul ones(Thats all I have), so that helps.

Without the past lives you can still easily do norm/hard.

There is no Epic Ward anymore on normal mobs, but on epic elite the mobs get an extra bonus on saves. My DC for Necro is around 50 and I can take down casters first time usally, but other mobs save a lot. But with Symbol of Death and wail you can get those to.

I like the better survivability with 2 rogue levels.

[owens.forum]

My current wizard was a WIZ18/2ROG before I GR'ed her into a pure WIZ20 (still first life).

I had fun with the trapsmithing, but for a first lifer, my reflex saves were lousy. Poor reflex saves = poor evasion.

At present, with Insightful Reflexes (the feat) plus my 40INT plus a +5 Resistance item (not sure if this is with GH running), my reflex saves just hit +30. I'm guessing this should be enough for some elite content, but not sure if you'll be happy with your saves in epic content.

If you want effective evasion, you'll really need to plan your build so that you'll be able to get your reflex saves up to scratch.

Just my two cents worth of advice.

[wax_on_wax_off]

My Main us a WF 18 WIzard/2 Rogue and I think its worth it. Sure your DC and Spell Pen is a bit lower and you have less mana, but overall evasion rocks and being able to do traps is a nice addition to.

I have around 2600 Mana, DC 50 Necro, 52/53 Spell Pen, 52+ Reflex and around 700 HP. Im also Palemaster, but thats a matter of preference. Archmage is probably just as good.

I use the Sorc Epic Destily for extra Damage which works great(Enegy Vortex/Aura/Dragon Breath).



Spell pen is no problem for me, even on epic elite, but I have 3 wizzy past lives and 3 favoured soul ones(Thats all I have), so that helps.

Without the past lives you can still easily do norm/hard.

There is no Epic Ward anymore on normal mobs, but on epic elite the mobs get an extra bonus on saves. My DC for Necro is around 50 and I can take down casters first time usally, but other mobs save a lot. But with Symbol of Death and wail you can get those to.

I like the better survivability with 2 rogue levels.

Oh only a 7th life character?

...

If you have 6 PLs then do *** you like, hopefully you've got a decent idea. Otherwise I'd be going pure so that you can hit that spell pen needed for EE in your preferred destiny or in EH in other destinies/before you have twists.

[Jsbeer]

Spell pen is no problem for me, even on epic elite, but I have 3 wizzy past lives and 3 favoured soul ones(Thats all I have), so that helps.

Without the past lives you can still easily do norm/hard.


I like the better survivability with 2 rogue levels.


This brings up a good point, namely that with enough past lives, staying pure doesn't matter very much. However, if you don't have them (specifically 3 Wiz & 3 FvS for +9 Spell Pen), then going Wizard 20 for the extra spell pen and other bonuses is very nice.

The OP should be okay going Wiz 18 / 2 Rog next life if he if TRs into an Elf (for +8 spell pen from 2 Wiz PLs and + 4 from Elven enhancements), but otherwise I'd say stay Wizard 20.

[dajg]

There's NO way I am grinding out a TR2 unless I win the lottery and no longer have to go to work.

Thanks for all the opinions, the biggest factor to staying pure seems to be for the spell pen, but can't you get decent spell pen on a 18/2 relatively easily?
Base 18
Epic destiny levels +5
Wiz PL +2
Spell pen item +3
Enhancements +3
Feats (SP/GSP/ESP) +8
Magister piercing +3
Draconic piercing +3
Arcane augmentation +2
Magister +3 CL in one school +3
Total 47 or 50 in one school (probably necro)

I realise that this is a bit of a gear grind but I ground out 40 shrouds on my first life doing it twice a week so I reckon I am up for it.

Pure would be 49/52 is that going to be such a massive difference? Especially if I am doing epic elite only occasionally the vast majority will be hard I imagine. DCs again will be 1 lower but I will have the wiz active past life feat and I imagine gear will be a bigger factor. Is 2 spell pen and 1 DC worth evasion and traps skills (which are much more useful when you solo which I do a lot).

[wax_on_wax_off]

No, still don't splash. Pure let's you get enough spell pen to be in any destiny without spell pen issues in EH and then you can swap into your primary destiny for EE and have decent spell pen (after you get twists etc).

Mobs in EE have up to 56 or 58 SR so 49-52 is definitely not enough especially when you want to have more than one school to draw from (level drains, instant kills, power words, dances and holds for instance).

[scottmike0]

No, still don't splash. Pure let's you get enough spell pen to be in any destiny without spell pen issues in EH and then you can swap into your primary destiny for EE and have decent spell pen (after you get twists etc).

Mobs in EE have up to 56 or 58 SR so 49-52 is definitely not enough especially when you want to have more than one school to draw from (level drains, instant kills, power words, dances and holds for instance).

i don't get it, a 4 spell resist check is nothing unless you accounting for a roll of 20...

?_?
confused...

[AtomicMew]

i don't get it, a 4 spell resist check is nothing unless you accounting for a roll of 20...

?_?
confused...

How is this confusing? Having to roll a 4 or higher means you're going to fail 20% of the time on SR. You also won't have no fail saves on every encounter though to be fair, no caster does.

If it's epic hard, the difference between 46 and 56 spell penetration is non-existent. You can absolutely spec for EH and pick up a bunch of different abilities that will let you zerg harder. That's fine, and I'm considering doing that even on one of my multi-TR'ed casters. However, if you want to have a full array of viable spells for EE, you're going to have to sacrifice everything to the numbers.

[dajg]

How is this confusing? Having to roll a 4 or higher means you're going to fail 20% of the time on SR. You also won't have no fail saves on every encounter though to be fair, no caster does.

If it's epic hard, the difference between 46 and 56 spell penetration is non-existent. You can absolutely spec for EH and pick up a bunch of different abilities that will let you zerg harder. That's fine, and I'm considering doing that even on one of my multi-TR'ed casters. However, if you want to have a full array of viable spells for EE, you're going to have to sacrifice everything to the numbers.

The difference between an 18/2 and pure is going to be 2 spell penetration and 1 dc. Unless you need to roll 17+ to succeed (which would be worrying) there is little difference in success rate. Incidently does every mob in epic elite have exactly 56 spell resistance? Or is it more varied? Is 2 spell pen and 1dc and one feat better than evasion and full trap skills plus umd?

[AtomicMew]

The difference between an 18/2 and pure is going to be 2 spell penetration and 1 dc. Unless you need to roll 17+ to succeed (which would be worrying) there is little difference in success rate.
There's quite a big difference in success rate. With that much of a difference, you're looking at 10-15%-ish difference in success rate against mobs where it makes a difference.

Incidently does every mob in epic elite have exactly 56 spell resistance? Or is it more varied? Is 2 spell pen and 1dc and one feat better than evasion and full trap skills plus umd?
Drow are in basically 70% of expansion content and quite a bit of old content too. It's varied, sure, but drow are clearly the most prevalent mob type in end game. There's also other things that have that high spell resistance too.

Yes, 2 spell pen and 1 DC (and one feat, two level 9 spell slots, a few hundred SP, discounted metas and higher caster levels) is more important than trap ability, UMD and evasion. There is no contest.

[Kinerd]

You will have no trouble whatsoever soloing as a pure wizard. Keep in mind that you can still muster a very respectable Reflex save with Insightful Reflexes.

Being able to disarm traps is nice, no question, but if you're that worried about the pug just go on a lower difficulty level.

The only epic ward I recall is on orange names in epic.

Yes, you can still get a very high Spell Pen score with all your EDs and twists and the best possible gear. I suspect this will not be of great comfort to you when you first hit level 20 and can barely land SR checks on Orthons. I also suspect you could get a lot more out of the epic points you plan to spend on the Magister +3 CL.

[scottmike0]

How is this confusing? Having to roll a 4 or higher means you're going to fail 20% of the time on SR. You also won't have no fail saves on every encounter though to be fair, no caster does.

If it's epic hard, the difference between 46 and 56 spell penetration is non-existent. You can absolutely spec for EH and pick up a bunch of different abilities that will let you zerg harder. That's fine, and I'm considering doing that even on one of my multi-TR'ed casters. However, if you want to have a full array of viable spells for EE, you're going to have to sacrifice everything to the numbers.

Not entirly true... about the 20%of time... Im guessing your one of those cronies that say you must have a 38-40 to Use heal scroll... which is surely not true either.. or i have been "not healing scrolling my self as a monk" and Gaining that hp outta no where...

For example...
I was in running with the Devils on elite...
25 spell pen on my 17 caster tr....
37 spell pen is what was required to get pasted the elderan...
i litterally still slaughtered the ghale and still ended up with the most kills...
It was a 6 man of course....
the kill ratio was about 40 win for me--40 finger of deaths/or quite a few wails...
and 10 or less for the rest....
So saying you need exactly is wrong... you can still do fine if you must succeed a 4 or higher...
just like heal scrolls... at 31 umd you still will be able to heal scroll more than half the time...
or even 28 for that matter you still can use heal scrolls....

[wax_on_wax_off]

Not entirly true... about the 20%of time... Im guessing your one of those cronies that say you must have a 38-40 to Use heal scroll... which is surely not true either.. or i have been "not healing scrolling my self as a monk" and Gaining that hp outta no where...

For example...
I was in running with the Devils on elite...
25 spell pen on my 17 caster tr....
37 spell pen is what was required to get pasted the elderan...
i litterally still slaughtered the ghale and still ended up with the most kills...
It was a 6 man of course....
the kill ratio was about 40 win for me--40 finger of deaths/or quite a few wails...
and 10 or less for the rest....
So saying you need exactly is wrong... you can still do fine if you must succeed a 4 or higher...
just like heal scrolls... at 31 umd you still will be able to heal scroll more than half the time...
or even 28 for that matter you still can use heal scrolls....

Healing yourself out of combat with a 50% success rate heal scroll is one and great though with monk healing amp I'd probably just use a cure crit wand. Healing yourself in combat however where all sorts of things can happen like having to make concentration checks from damage, curses and other debuffs to skill checks and the reality that a failed scroll heal can mean death tends to mean that you want to be as close to that magic 39 as possible as even with 38 you just know that that 1 or even multiple 1's will come along exactly at the worst time.

It's worse with SR. If you have a 20% fail rate then 1 in 5 of your spells will fail, consider that on a disco ball, 5 mobs, 1 auto free, other 4 still get to make a save, of those 4 you'll get another SR fail on the next round of saves in all likelihood along with another chance for saves and so forth. In reality you won't have the spell pen for EE for a while anyway due to gear and twist constraints but if you're pure you'll be that much more able to give it a go and contribute in that content.

For EH it means that you can get good spell pen even outside magister destiny which is a huge benefit as you can try out things like AM Evo/Shiradi or just while leveling secondary destinies instead of grinding them out in dun robar.

[goodspeed]

Tough call, basically convenience over stats. Theirs no doubt that a 2 rogue splash is awesome. Especially while leveling up. Especially now with even less of em running about clicking on boxes.

Thing is the stats don't really change in makeup between the 2 so I'd say go with the 2 rog while you level and then get a heart of wood and redo the 2 levels. I'd prolly do that before anything to do with epic anything as I believe turbine still has that whole LR thing messed up.

Then it's really a judgement call. As said with the destinies and stuff farming out a slew of past lives really isn't a hands down requirement anymore. But if you were to splash and give up the capstone, (one that actually is worth being there) u'd prolly want 1 or 2 lives to make up for it. Or maybe the elven race I believe they get an enhancement that stacks on spell pen. No matter what though if your doing really anything in the epics underdark while your gonna wanna have the spell pen in spades cause it's the one thing those purple tunnel dwellers have going for them.

Oh and if u did go elf i'd recommend pale master. It's gonna give you some form of healing. If you wanted to go Arch mage then i'd shoot for either the robot, or you could go flesh like with a helf elf using the cleric dili to whip heal scrolls. I went the ladder and found it fine.

Well good luck in your decision.