permadodge 45% staves specialist

[obscure.jester]

hello. was just thinking about a build able to keep a decent damage while sitting on a massive dodge chance.
dodge max is 25% so first thing i needed was to reach that amount and keep it permanent. then, going above via gear and boosts. thought that a rogue12/monk4/fighter4 would suit the plan.

rogue 12:
we get thief acrobat prestige for showtime skill and use it as a barbarian rage boosting dex, attack speed and getting a nice dex bonus to dmg with staves, which will be our main weapons.

monk 4:
we get a 6% dodge by default, bonus feats, monk stances (to boost dmg, speed, hp, st, very versatile on a build like this) and we stay centered with staves.

fighter 4:
bonus feats, weapon specialization staves, useful enhancements.

race would be horc for more str, str enhancement and horc action boost III (+3 showtime per rest. nice)
it surely cripples int but this wont be a trapper build thus not a biggie. (can still cap DD an search, bringing a +6 int item and something like tharne goggles for +20 search will make this build able to trap like a pro)

now: we know dodge bonuses stack as long as they come from feats and boosts while bonus from gear stack only with different magnitude. plan is to reach 25% dodge (15% actually as we can have a max of 10% from gear in form of +1, +2, +3, +4 = +10%). we have already a 6% from monk4, 11% left. feats can help here. dodge gives a 3, mobility a 2, spring attack another 2, flurry of blows and uncanny dodge from monk and rogue complete the gap eventually. we have our 25%.

adding a permablur item, such as crystal cove greater nimble trinket (+1 dodge as item too) gives another 20% chance to be missed from an attack, bringing our chance to take no damage to a very, very nice 45% permanent. and we still have to activate uncanny dodge, monk stances, showtime, epic destinies and all.
when activating uncanny dodge (+50% stack) we will reach a tremendous 95% chance to take no dmg.

for getting our 10% with gear, things now are much easier.
1% = CC trinket, accessible to all players once a year and easy to get. MUST have since gives also permablur. get one on first cc event if u dont have already.
2% = one up to three runs in madness chain to get a nice tharaak bracelet (gives +20hp too). would dump cinder ring for we need ring slots free for other things. epic bracers of deftness (if u have/can farm easily) will spare you to get mobility feat. chaosgarde is easier to get even from ah with a cheap price but all above is way better.
3% = here we have only epic grim (neck) and chattering ring (but we need ring slots so try to farm hard in mammoth valley if possible, otherwise a chittering can work fine).
4% = icy raiment. hard to get but worth a try since we have monk levels. otherwise seal of house dunrobar (the ring slot we were needing) will work perfectly. epic staff of nat gann is probably a must have item even if we will use other staves. still, better to get one from echrono. having dunrobar ring anyway will keep our 4% while using other staves even if we dont have raiments, i recommend that item for the 4%.

staves:
staves wont get our toon uncentered, keep our flurry on as ki weapons, add dex bonus to dmg in showtime form and are 2 handed, making PA an excellent feat to take (especially since we have high str via horc and fighter enhancements). weapon specialization from ftr lev4 will increase further the amount of pain dealt.

feats:
we have our 7 feats plus 2 from monk and 2 from fighter, and a rogue special feat (improved evasion or, if u feel confident with ref save as this build should be, opportunist)
a total of 11 feats then and a rogue special one.
for sure we need dodge. mobility is pre for spring attack but if we reach our 25% already, we can easily dump spring attack as we get mobility for free via epic deftness or else (plenty of gear even on ah has mobility feat included).
toughness is a must have since our hp wont be as high as a real melee due to the 12d6 from rogue, beside it unlocks toughness enhancements.
weapon focus bludgeon is pre for specialization.
improved crit bludgeon is surely something we want.
power attack is really worthy here, high str and staves are just too juicy to dump it.
the 2HF line takes 3 feat slots. id recommend it but i cannot be sure about it as more tests have to be done before declaring it mandatory.
stunning blow is a must to enable sneaks.

gear:
beside the above items for dodge%, probably we will use eveningstar villagers monk set (sun soul, possibly with spider spun after maxing purple knights favor), bracers, belt, outfit. rings should be dunrabar and eventually one between epic buccaneer from cc, any suitable tod set (with neck if we dont use epic grim as for belt we have sun soul) to get a +20% heal amp on, eveningstar druid goggles (seeker, yes pls) or epic time sensing (more juicy haste). of course, if u have an epic abishai set, it goes without saying. a gs minII +45hp will give heavy fort and deflection 5 on ac, could be cloak or eventually helm (on helm i rather see a cc hat +5 nat armor +15 diplo/bluff)
madstone boots surely help here as we dont cast spells and will seldom need a remove curse potion due to huge miss chance we reach in a fight. on gloves probably titan grip/fabricator gauntlets (+10% alacrity, we already have +6 res on spider spun), a pair of spectral gloves will be a nice swap for incorporeal foes. we still need dblock, silver flame talisman works excellently but neck slot is taken (epic grim or tod set). need help here.
staves: choice is huge. eveningstar sticks, dreamspitter, staff of shadows, nat gann, gs litII, there are really a lot pretty easy to get/farm, thus no problem.

stats will mainly go as this:

32 point build

STR 17
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 10 (can even be 8, it's just to get more skill points and, if +3 tome, feat CE if you fancy whirlwind attack)
WIS 10 (can be 8 and bring int to 11 for doing as above with a +2 tome instead of +3)
CHA 6

lev stats on str. 17+5=22, +2horc=24, +2ftr=26, +2tome=28, +2ship=30. str item +6, +3 insightful, +1 exceptional= str 40, not bad at all.

HP are, geared and all, something around 500ish i reckon.

best past life is probably fighter for the hit boost. could be nice as well with past life barb (more hp and fake rage) or pally (+5% heal amp) or even rogue (a bit more dmg on sneaks and +1 on skills).
would discourage past life monk even for that +1 hit and dmg.


this is the basic idea.
would appreciated very much your help, feedbacks and hints to improve the build and correct my eventual mistakes.
thanks to all.

[Coyopa]

Bracers of Wind give 3% dodge, too.

[obscure.jester]

Bracers of Wind give 3% dodge, too.

true. but i think sun soul set bracers or epic deftness would better suit in here. it still depends on the gear one has/can farm, opts are many.

edit: sorry, my bad, thought another pair of bracers. yes they'd work nicely and can spare the trinket for blur, freeing the slot for pale lav.

[obscure.jester]

my friend baalzett suggested a rog13/mnk5/ftr2 for this build. we renounce to weapon specialization in order to get an additional rogue special feat (opportunist), +3 AC via monk, +1d6 sneak at cost of -2 dmg and -7 hp.
i have to agree, the build would improve that way.

cheerz baal.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Bracers of Wind give 3% dodge, too.

Just to expand on that.

It's the level 16 bracers that give 3% and at tier 3 become craftable, so you can put 1% dodge here.

[brzytki]

I haven't thought about the best split yet but i wanted to point out a few mistakes and give some advice to you.

First, Showtime. It's a really underwhelming ability - +10 to skills shouldn't be essential for a acrobat, run speed doesn't stack with striding/haste, only the +4 DEX for a minute is ok, but... It consumes a use of your Haste Boost which is an awful drawback making it not worth using unless there are like 4 minutes between shrines.


now: we know dodge bonuses stack as long as they come from feats and boosts while bonus from gear stack only with different magnitude. plan is to reach 25% dodge (15% actually as we can have a max of 10% from gear in form of +1, +2, +3, +4 = +10%). we have already a 6% from monk4, 11% left. feats can help here. dodge gives a 3, mobility a 2, spring attack another 2, flurry of blows and uncanny dodge from monk and rogue complete the gap eventually. we have our 25%.
Monk and rogue levels will give you 10% dodge, 10% from items, 7% from 3 feats, not to mention EDs and twists, so i don't really think you need more fighter/monk levels for feats. Getting 13th level of rogue would be better imo, as you get 1d6 SA and special feat.



adding a permablur item, such as crystal cove greater nimble trinket (+1 dodge as item too) gives another 20% chance to be missed from an attack, bringing our chance to take no damage to a very, very nice 45% permanent. and we still have to activate uncanny dodge, monk stances, showtime, epic destinies and all.
when activating uncanny dodge (+50% stack) we will reach a tremendous 95% chance to take no dmg.

That's not how it works. Additively stack only same type bonuses and by that i mean dodge + dodge, not dodge + blur. Those stack multiplicatively.
If you have 25% dodge and 20% blur you have 1*0.8*0.75=0.6 chance to be hit, not 55%, not counting rolls of 1. As you can see adding more ways to avoid getting hit yields lesser percentage than advertised. Getting a Ghostly item with 10% incorporeality would give you 6 percentage increase, so you be hit 54% of the time. That makes building for max dodge not a good idea, espacially when you need a few feats and gear slots, plus if you have a permablur and incorporeality items that +1% dodge won't give you 1% but 0,72%. If you count in rolls of 1 it's even less - 0,684%



best past life is probably fighter for the hit boost. could be nice as well with past life barb (more hp and fake rage) or pally (+5% heal amp) or even rogue (a bit more dmg on sneaks and +1 on skills).
would discourage past life monk even for that +1 hit and dmg.
You seem to have mixed passive and active PLs together.
Fighter: passive gives +1 to-hit and +1 DC to tactical feats, active +1 intimi, +1 MDB and a full BAB +4 to-hit clicky
Barb: passive gives 10hp, active 20hp, +2 intimi and a useless rage clicky
Pally: passive gives +5% hamp, active a clicky for +3 to-hit and dmg for 3 minutes
Rogue: passive gives +1 SA and +2 reflex save vs traps, active +1 to skills and 3x 1 minute clicky for +(lvl/4) to-hit, +(lvl/2) SA dmg, +lvl to hide/MS
Monk: passive gives +1 dmg, active +2 concentration, +1W unarmed and useless evasion clicky

[Stormraiser]

Consider changing those 4 fighter levels with 1 druid level.

1 druid provides 2 key spells which last 5 minutes each Ram's Might: +2 size bonus to Strength and damage and Shillelagh: Quarterstaves with this enchantment deal an additional 1[W] damage.

Changed levels 13 rogue 6 monk 1 druid.

[obscure.jester]

thanks, great hints. was sure i did some mistakes, now i can fix stuff properly.
i surely agree on showtime being poor, i wrongly thought dex mod to dmg was only while showtime active, instead it's not. im happy to leave showtime off the hotbar and use plain haste boosts.

the druid levs for +2 size str and dmg on staves are interesting and surely will fit now.

what i dont get is this:



If you have 25% dodge and 20% blur you have 1*0.8*0.75=0.6 chance to be hit, not 55%, not counting rolls of 1. As you can see adding more ways to avoid getting hit yields lesser percentage than advertised. Getting a Ghostly item with 10% incorporeality would give you 6 percentage increase, so you be hit 54% of the time. That makes building for max dodge not a good idea, espacially when you need a few feats and gear slots, plus if you have a permablur and incorporeality items that +1% dodge won't give you 1% but 0,72%. If you count in rolls of 1 it's even less - 0,684

0.6 actually is 45%. and i said indeed 45%. because the attacker, on a roll which hits your ac, has one or more side rolls for those things. saying dodge 25% and blur 20%. 2 side rolls. if side roll on dodge is 26-100 and the side roll on blur is 21-100, the hit deals dmg. if one of the 2 side rolls get 1-25 or 1-20, hit fails. undependent checks. and, indeed, the total sum of your avoiding chance is 45%.

[unbongwah]

adding a permablur item, such as crystal cove greater nimble trinket (+1 dodge as item too) gives another 20% chance to be missed from an attack, bringing our chance to take no damage to a very, very nice 45% permanent.
Miss chances stack multiplicatively, not additively. So in this case, ignoring AC, you're talking about 100% - (75% * 80%) = 40% miss chance, not 45%.

My HO staff build is rog 13 / monk 6 / druid 1: monk 6 adds 3 feats, stances, Ninja I (Shadow Fade & +1D6 SA); druid 1 adds Shillelagh and Ram's Might. Have Dodge feat (+3%) for Ninja pre-req; no plans to take Mobility / Spring Atk (can get Mobility on an item if I really want +2% Dodge). So miss chance should be 100% - (75% * 80% * 75%) = 55% miss chance.

[Coyopa]

I've been giving this some more thought and the primary question I've got is this: If you've got dodge percentages from epic destinies, will those percentages enable you to exceed 25%?

If not, then you'd have to plan how to modify the build and gear to accommodate the dodge percentages you can accrue from epic destinies.

If so, then just ignore the epic destinies and carry on.

Personally, I'm really fascinated by this possible build. I've been considering making an acrobat rogue, anyway (I've got two copies of Staff of Nat Gann and everything needed to make one of them epic). So, this is really interesting to me.

Edit: I was thinking a 13 rogue/6 monk/1 other class might be optimal. 6 monk gets you Ocean Stance for an additional 2% dodge. 13 rogue gets you a second rogue class feat. Fighter seems like a good option for the extra feat.

From GM of Flowers, there is Running with Water for 3% dodge if you are in Ocean Stance. Obviously, as has been mentioned, Perfect Balance for 3% dodge. You could also twist in Unearthly Reaction for 3% more dodge.

[obscure.jester]

so, according to last useful advices, while waiting for brzytki to help again finding out the best classes balance, new build should be rogue 13, monk 6, druid 1.
still horc for more str and +3 action boost enhancement, providing more haste boosts.
we happily dump showtime and more happily welcome ram's might and staff dmg boost. (and even some helpful berries to heal a bit at lower levels).
dodge progression:
6% from flurry of blows (staves)
4% from improved uncanny dodge rogue lev8+
3% from dodge feat (if we want ninjaI - i actually do, i like shadowfade)

total 13% (10% without dodge feat)
add last 12 or 15% via:
bard buff (4%)
free mobility feat from an item (2%)
best combination of above items (dunrabar, grim, wind bracers, cc trinket...)

cap 25% is easier and saves some feat slots. sweet.

for the feat line?
now we have 7 basics +2 rogue specials +3 monk, total 10 +2 special

it stays that PA is a must have as well as improved crit blunt, stunning blow and toughness (4 slots) and id say dodge too because ninja I (5 slots, 5 to go), what about the rest? the 2HF line?
specials will probaby be improved eva and opportunist.

thanks again guys.

[obscure.jester]

I've been giving this some more thought and the primary question I've got is this: If you've got dodge percentages from epic destinies, will those percentages enable you to exceed 25%?

If not, then you'd have to plan how to modify the build and gear to accommodate the dodge percentages you can accrue from epic destinies.


dodge cap cant anyway exceed 25% except when activating uncanny dodge and similar. thus this must be planned in advance according to epic destinies because they wont add more dodge, cap stays at 25%.


edit: @unbogwah: now i get what brzytki said, thought there were separated rolls, one for each, being mislead by rules in dodge bonus wikia page as it states "The Dodge Chance provides a chance to evade enemy attacks introduced with Update 14.

This check is done independent of the miss chance resulting from Armor Class and other measures of not getting hit, such as Ghostly or Displacement. The dodge chance is capped by the Maximum dexterity bonus of the armor worn, and cannot exceed 25%."

[unbongwah]

If you've got dodge percentages from epic destinies, will those percentages enable you to exceed 25%?
At present it looks like none of the EDs ups the Dodge (http://ddowiki.com/page/Dodge_bonus) cap (Master's Blitz is supposed to, but doesn't); only (Imp) Uncanny Dodge ups the cap temporarily when you use it.

[Coyopa]

Thanks! I appreciate that information. I was working on building this while waiting for an answer. I took my initial build in a slightly different direction from the OP's goals - and I'll post it here, but I'm going to be working on changing it. What are people's thoughts on taking the three twists: Running with Water, Perfect Balance, and Unearthly Reactions?

That's 9% dodge from those twists, which reduces our dependence upon feats to an extent.

Anyway, here's what I came up with - the intent to use Epic Staff of Nat Gann as the primary weapon (which grants attack and damage modifiers based on Dexterity, with 4% dodge, red slot for good weapons, and is silver):


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Human Male
(1 Fighter \ 6 Monk \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 288
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 18
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 11 15
Dexterity 13 21
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 16 18
Wisdom 12 14
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 17
Bluff 3 23
Concentration 3 4
Diplomacy 3 10
Disable Device 7 33
Haggle -1 2
Heal 1 2
Hide 5 30
Intimidate -1 0
Jump 4 31
Listen 1 2
Move Silently 5 30
Open Lock 5 30
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 4
Search 7 31
Spot 5 25
Swim 0 2
Tumble 5 34
Use Magic Device 3 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precision


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Whirlwind Attack


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Diehard


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct I
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct II
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct III
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device III
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device IV
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Search I
Enhancement: Improved Search II
Enhancement: Improved Search III
Enhancement: Improved Search IV
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I




My idea was to make a character that can still perform all the critical Rogue functions, have max dodge and it would probably take ITHF and GTHF at levels 21 and 24 (but Improved Sneak Attack would be so much nicer). May have to drop Int by a point or two to bring strength up early enough to get THF far earlier than this build has it. Also, with various items (Epic Cloak of Night [2% dodge], L16 Bracers of Wind [3% dodge, 1% dodge crafted], and Epic Staff of Nat Gann), this build would actually end up with 38% dodge. So, there is 13% dodge excess (9% from twists) and lots of room for adjustment!

[Coyopa]

OK. Here's my take on the OP's original goals:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Orc Male
(1 Fighter \ 6 Monk \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 288
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 17
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 14 19
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 12
Bluff 2 22
Concentration 3 4
Diplomacy -2 -1
Disable Device 6 30
Haggle -2 1
Heal -1 0
Hide 6 29
Intimidate -2 -1
Jump 7 22
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 6 29
Open Lock 6 27
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 3
Search 6 26
Spot 3 23
Swim 3 6
Tumble 6 15
Use Magic Device 2 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Whirlwind Attack


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost II
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct I
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct II
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct III
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device III
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device IV
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I




Personally, I like Precision because of the fortification bypass and how often it has enabled my Assassin Rogue to sneak attack constructs, undead, and everything else. I know it's not really a favorite of people on the forums (and probably not a favorite of many people who never come to the forums, either) and so I didn't include it in this version.

Anyway, this build gets 17% dodge from its feats (if my math is correct): 6% Flurry of Blows, 4% Uncanny Dodge, 3% Dodge, 2% Mobility, 2% Spring Attack. This leaves a difference of only 8% to get to 25%. Keep Unearthly Reactions for 3% of that, which leaves you a twist for Sense Weakness and Brace for Impact (a 4/1/1 set of twists). Get a 3% dodge item (Bracers of Wind, Chattering Ring, etc) and Epic Cloak of Night (2% dodge) and you've arrived at exactly 25%.

Edit: If you swap fighter for druid, you lose a feat and you won't be able to get both Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack before level 20. Whirlwind Attack would have to wait until level 21 or you'd have to decide you don't want it at all, which would then render Combat Expertise mostly useless. Of course, this choice would leave room for Precision prior to level 21!

[obscure.jester]

i am personally not a big fan of whirlwind attack, i threw it there because, in case you take mobility and spring attack, you are almost there to get it. i would dump it to be honest, and same is true for mobility and spring attack, relying more on additional percentage from ED and items.

my build would def be rog13/mnk6/drd1

basic naked stats
str 17
dex 16
con 16
int 10
wis 10
cha 6

+2 tome for all stats at lev 7, all increases to str, wouldnt mind to have 10 (12) int as i maxed out anyway trap skills.

DD 23 rog
search 23 rog
hide 17 mnk
sneak 17 mnk
lock 23 rog
bluff 20 rog
diplo 15 rog 4 drd tot 19
umd 23 rog
tumble 1 mnk

enhancement:
imp jump II, imp tumble II, imp balance II
rog wand/scroll I
drd toughness I, racial toughness I-II
rog dex I-III, orc str I-II
rog haste boost I-IV
rog extra action boost I, orc extra action boost I-III
orc melee dmg I-II
way patient tortoise I-II
rog faster sneaking I
rog sneak accuracy I
rog sneak training I-IV
static charge
thief acrobat I-II
ninja spy I

HP ungeared 340

saves ungeared
fort +15
ref +18
will +12

feats: 2HF set (3), dodge, power attack, improved crit bludgeoning, stunning blow, toughness 3x. improved eva and opportunist for special.

can swap 1 or 2 toughness with precision (good add man, now dmg is not longer halved) and/or resilience.

as gear i see sun soul bracers/bracers of the wind, sun soul belt/ToD set belt, spider spun upgraded, dunrabar ring, ToD ring/chittering, epic time sensing, greater nimble trinket/litany/pale lav, wretched twilight/gs minII cloak, madstone boots, fabricator gauntlets/spectral gloves/titan's grip, silver flame talisman/ToD necklace/epic grim, cc hat nat armor+5 bluff+15/helm of purple dragon knights, epic staff of nat gann/dreamspitter unsupressed.

[obscure.jester]

was trying to optimise gear for the build:

we have already 6% from monk, 4% from rogue, 3% from dodge feat, 2% from mobility (feat or item with), 1% from haste spell, tot 16%. need 9% from gear (4+3+2) or renounce to a feat like precision (can be taken at lev 21) and get (sigh) spring attack (2%) to need 7% from gear (4+3 or 4+2+1). my choice would be 4+2+1 from gear due to epic cloak of night which also gives sexy ghostly and deathblock among its skills.

helm: ?
trinket: greater cunning trinket (1% / blurry 20)
goggles: epic time sensing (haste clicky / wis +2) / after clicky swap with lenses of the woodsman
neck: ToD set
armor: ?
bracers: ?
belt: ?
cloak: epic cloak of night (2% / ghostly 10 / dblock)
ring: seal of house dunrobar (4% / +5 combat mastery / con +2)
ring: ToD set
gloves: ?
boots: madstone boots upgraded (striding 30 / dex +6 / rage)

second option
helm: ?
trinket: pale lav?
goggles: epic time sensing (haste clicky / wis +2) after clicky swap with lenses of the woodsman
neck: ToD set
armor: ?
bracers: epic bracers of the wind (3% / blurry 20)
belt: ?
cloak: epic cloak of night (2% / ghostly 10 / dblock)
ring: seal of house dunrobar (4% / +5 combat mastery / con +2)
ring: ToD set
gloves: ?
boots: madstone boots upgraded (striding 30 / dex+6 / rage)


most of the unknown gear will depend from ToD set due to its variability on str and wis mainly (all necks have +6 con and we have dex on boots): i reckon best sets to have on this build are kensai (+2 to hit, +3 to confirm crits, +1 haste boost), ninja spy (+2 to hit, bonus to sneak attacks, -20% threat,), shintao (+2 to hit and dmg, +15 conc), tempest (+1d4 slicing dmg, useless +15 balance).

ToD ring should have +20% heal amp or +2 insightful str or dex (not con or wis, we get it from dunrobar and goggles).

need to figure out a slot for a gs minII item (+45 hp, heavy fort, deflection +5, stoneskin 2/day) as it is mandatory, maybe belt.

a dragontouched robe can be sharded for 3% dodge bonus but they are kinda hard to farm, probably a spider spun outfit fits better armor slot and it's somehow "customable" (+9, +15 conc, toughness, +6 to all saves, dex/wis 8 or insight +3...) even if no comparison with DT shards.

gloves: fabricator works good, 10% melee alacrity (did they fix the alacrity from madstone?), epic claws are sexy for the +30% amp but since we probably wont use epic bracers of claw, purple knights gloves will be better (same amp, +7 str, +2 con / in case, dunrobar ring will be best with +2 str), titan's grip can be kept in hotbar for the clicky then swap. no need spectral gloves as we have epic cloak of night to hit incorporeal foes.

bracers: epic wind are just great, i think the slot belongs to them anyway, even if, in case we dont use a spider spun or anything with armor bonus in armor slot, i have some pretty nice +8 armored bracers of shield (5 min clicky, 3/day).

trinket: greater cunning is a waste if we have epic wind bracers, unless we really want that +1% (nah), probably pale lav / litany are better options. if no bracers, slot belongs to it.

helm: no idea. cc hat +5 nat armor +15 bluff?

epic nat gann is a must, no need to talk about. dreamspitter and epic souleater are tier1 add on to the arsenal.
in case of ftr instead of drd, sireth is another one. in case of druid, we need to reach UMD 32 (23 basic, we need +9 between cha - very low on horcs and remember humans wont get the 3 extra action boost thus i go horc all day long with this - and things like big top, kinda hard, any suggestion?)

[Chette]

Do 6 monk ninja spy for 25% incorporeality. I run a 13 rogue, 6 monk with 25% dodge, 25% incorporeality, about 40% chance to miss at level AC with a stack of displacement scrolls and clickies and 50ish reflex save with improved evasion. It's amazing.

Sireth is the only weapon you will want 99% of the time. There is no problem getting to the UMD required to use it once you have epic levels, as you'll get 5 extra ranks for 28 base. That means you only need to eek out +4, you can get that from a GH. Anything with rogue levels should plan for 40 UMD anyway for heal scrolls, it's not hard to hit, my horc started with 10 Cha I think and has ~42 without a skill item.

[brzytki]

Ok, you've built your character up to lvl 20 (i agree that 13 rog/6 mnk/1 drd would be the best split and my choice as well - see Nature's Spy thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=382893). But you seem to not count in EDs and epic feats yet, which will have a big impact on your character as well.

For me a clear winner for an Acrobat is LD and, as PA is pretty much needed for this destiny to work well, i wouldn't take Precision (which is totally awesome for Assassins in SD) as well. I'd take Imp Sunder over another Toughness any day. I'd take Cleave and Great Cleave instead of THF chain as well, see next paragraph.

Now come epic feats, especially 3 of them: Epic Toughness (req 21 CON), ISA (req 21 DEX), OC (req 23 STR). If you go LD i see no reason to take Epic Toughness as you'd have plenty hp. So that leaves ISA and OC. With your starting stats, lvl-ups and +2 tomes you can get only OC (and that's when you have both Cleave and Great Cleave as they are pre-req for OC). I'd strongly advise getting +3 DEX tome (they are not that hard to come by nowadays in epic content) and put 2 lvl-ups into DEX to qualify for ISA. That way you are trading +1 to-hit/dmg for +3d6 SA and +1 SA dmg (DEX mod added to SA), so it's basically a clear win.

Definitely max bluff/diplo, you can be short a few points in OL and still be able to open any door/chest.

Don't really know why you put points into WIS, if it's for Unbalancing Strike and Ocean stance i'll tell you it's a waste since DC=10 + Half Monk Level + Wisdom mod + Trip mod. You'd be better off in Fire or Wind stance. Rogue DEX III is really a waste of APs i wish they got rid of it as a pre-req already... I'd recommend getting at least 1st tier of monk hamp, might come in handy. I don't think that racial and class extra action boosts stack but i might be wrong here since i haven't tried it.

Also, IIRC Shalala(sp) gives +1W to wooden weapons only so not all quarterstaves will benefit from it.

EDIT:
@unbogwah: now i get what brzytki said, thought there were separated rolls, one for each
And there are separated rolls and basing on how fortification vs SA works i'd hazard a guess that the game is designed to make as many as possible. If there weren't dodge and blur would be additive. You roll first for dodge and you have 25% chance to get missed. If you got missed you don't care if your next roll for blur kicks in cause the outcome is the same: you are not hit. But the roll is still there. That's what 'not mutually exclusive events' are and to calculate it fast you can use this formula: P(A)+P(B)-P(A)P(B).

[Nephilia]

The enhanced cloak of night from mabar at lv 24 provide 3% dodge too ;)

And 4 levels of fighter provide u 3 feats not 2 as u stated :)

[obscure.jester]

seems legit, great tips.
what about the gear as im still struggling on it and gear is half of the build?

as for lev progression i thought 1rog, 1drd, 12rog, 6mnk or eventually 1rog, 1drd, 6mnk, 12rog.

[obscure.jester]

I don't think that racial and class extra action boosts stack but i might be wrong here since i haven't tried it.


checked wikia: "Multiple action boost bonuses on the same character do not stack."

[Chette]

seems legit, great tips.
what about the gear as im still struggling on it and gear is half of the build?

as for lev progression i thought 1rog, 1drd, 12rog, 6mnk or eventually 1rog, 1drd, 6mnk, 12rog.

There's really a lot of gear options for a build like this, so I wouldn't worry too much about figuring out what's "perfect". Start with what you have already, and what's easily accessible, and work from there.

Armor:
I really like Velah redscale, but that's not easily accessible for most players. Something to work towards maybe.
Helm:
Good spot for a greensteel item, or some interesting random loot gen effects like extra fort.
Trinket:
Planar Focus of Prowess with +3 exceptional strength or +8 strength. Remember, you're going to want to use Sireth, so this will give you +4 to hit/damage. While you wait for Sireth consider using the bold trinket for shocking blow, +1 to damage and +2 exceptional seeker.
Goggles: Drow smoke goggles are great for +6 seeker and manslayer.
Neck: Shintao or Oremi's necklace here is nice for the ToD set
Bracers:Bracers of the claw, but will require some points spent to reduce threat. IF you can't manage that, don't go with these. Look at some lootgen options instead, like ogre power 8 of superior parrying, or lesser convalescence of superior parrying.
Glove: Gloves of the claw. If you can't manage the threat go with Purple Dragon gloves instead for the healing amp.
belt: Spare hand (from Cannith challenges). This is an absolutely amazing belt, 3% double strike, 3 UMD, 2 augment slots, combat mastery 5. If you don't wear this belt then you should absolutely be going for the ravager ToD set.
cloak: Adamantine cloak of the wolf. 4% dodge, 20% diversion (less threat!), 5 exceptional seeker. Cloak of night is nice too, but you have 25% incorporeality already and it doesn't stack.
Ring 1: Seal of house avithoul. Sneak attack, exceptional sneak attack, and improved deception. Improved deception will help you get sneak attack even if you have agro.
Ring 2: Oremis/Kyosho's ToD rings with 20% healing amp slotted. If you decide to go with the ravager set instead, then Ravager ring with 20% healing amp. That will free up your necklace for something else. Some nice loot gen options abound.
Boots: Lots of loot gen options here. +8 dex (remember acrobats add dex bonus to sneak attack damage), +8 con, a nice crafted item with a LGA slot.

The new random lootgen items have added more flexibility to builds, so really, just start with what you have and then start adding in things you know you'll want: sneak attack, dodge, seeker, healing amp, etc.

Good luck! My acrobat is the funnest build I've ever played. She's insanely survivable and does near barb-like insane DPS with sireth. You'll really enjoy it, even if you never cap it they're great things to run around on and level up.

[Stormraiser]

Thanks! I appreciate that information. I was working on building this while waiting for an answer. I took my initial build in a slightly different direction from the OP's goals - and I'll post it here, but I'm going to be working on changing it. What are people's thoughts on taking the three twists: Running with Water, Perfect Balance, and Unearthly Reactions?

That's 9% dodge from those twists, which reduces our dependence upon feats to an extent.

Anyway, here's what I came up with - the intent to use Epic Staff of Nat Gann as the primary weapon (which grants attack and damage modifiers based on Dexterity, with 4% dodge, red slot for good weapons, and is silver):


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Human Male
(1 Fighter \ 6 Monk \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 288
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 18
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 11 15
Dexterity 13 21
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 16 18
Wisdom 12 14
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 17
Bluff 3 23
Concentration 3 4
Diplomacy 3 10
Disable Device 7 33
Haggle -1 2
Heal 1 2
Hide 5 30
Intimidate -1 0
Jump 4 31
Listen 1 2
Move Silently 5 30
Open Lock 5 30
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 4
Search 7 31
Spot 5 25
Swim 0 2
Tumble 5 34
Use Magic Device 3 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precision


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Whirlwind Attack


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Diehard


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct I
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct II
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct III
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device III
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device IV
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Search I
Enhancement: Improved Search II
Enhancement: Improved Search III
Enhancement: Improved Search IV
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I




My idea was to make a character that can still perform all the critical Rogue functions, have max dodge and it would probably take ITHF and GTHF at levels 21 and 24 (but Improved Sneak Attack would be so much nicer). May have to drop Int by a point or two to bring strength up early enough to get THF far earlier than this build has it. Also, with various items (Epic Cloak of Night [2% dodge], L16 Bracers of Wind [3% dodge, 1% dodge crafted], and Epic Staff of Nat Gann), this build would actually end up with 38% dodge. So, there is 13% dodge excess (9% from twists) and lots of room for adjustment!

This build has some very questionable choices.

1 fighter is a lot worse then 1 druid for this build.

Starting stats are off: (suggested changes)
Strength 11 - 16
Dexterity 13 - 14
Constitution 16 - 16
Intelligence 16 - 10
Wisdom 12 - 12
Charisma 8 - 8

Wisdom could even be dumped


Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers - PA
(Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse - Weapon finesse is just inferior for a QS. Focus on str vs dex, you get more from it even if it is harder to raise up.
Feat: (Selected) Diehard - Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise - Swap around to get toughness here and replace other feat with I2WF
Feat: (Selected) Whirlwind Attack - G2WF
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack - Great Cleave
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precision - removed from lack of fighter

The enchantments are chock full of subpar choices , but those can be reset every 3 days.

[sephiroth1084]

I think you'd be better off with 13 rogue/6 monk/1 fighter or druid. You end up losing only 1 feat, and gain another 2% dodge from 6 monk I believe, and 25% Incorporeality from Ninja Spy I in addition to +1d6 SA.

For feats, I'd recommend Dodge, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical: Bludgeoning, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Toughness--if you take fighter instead of druid, add Stunning Blow, but I think druid looks better. In order to enable sneak attack, use an Improved Deception item, Bluff and Diplomacy, as well as by playing smart and focusing your attacks on enemies already aggroed by someone else.

For your epic feats, take Improved Sneak Attack and Overwhelming Critical.

[obscure.jester]

thanks. i thought anyway to swap that druid lev with fighter because both my endgame weapons (sireth and epic nat) arent wood maded, thus i lose shillelagh (only reason to put a druid level in here, ram's might in my opinion, isnt worth a feat, ram AND shillelagh is instead).

gear i have (or can easily get without any stress nor more than 30 mins farming) includes fabricator set, tod sets (almost all), madstone boots, spider spun, sun soul set, purple knight's gloves, epic wind bracers, greater cunning trinket, pale lav, +8 armored bracers of shield, epic nat, epic time sensing, dunrobar ring, lenses of woodsman, epic ring of stalker, epic spare hand, wretched twilight, epic cloak of night. for the epic claw set i have all except the 2 scrolls. 12 months farming. still 0.

[Chette]

for the epic claw set i have all except the 2 scrolls. 12 months farming. still 0.

Really? OH man, you've done the hardest part! The scrolls drop like candy now with everybody able to easily run these on hard. What server are you on? I could sell you both right now if you were on Ghallanda.

Just put up a marketplace thread, or even just check the AH, I see them on there all the time for under a million plat.

[obscure.jester]

Really? OH man, you've done the hardest part! The scrolls drop like candy now with everybody able to easily run these on hard. What server are you on? I could sell you both right now if you were on Ghallanda.

Just put up a marketplace thread, or even just check the AH, I see them on there all the time for under a million plat.

orien. and cant afford that much plat, i need it for silver flame pots, low/mid lev gear on TRs (bank slot space troubles) and a present for me every now and again, like another spider spun or an emergency +3 tome.

[Coyopa]

This build has some very questionable choices.

~snip~

The enchantments are chock full of subpar choices , but those can be reset every 3 days.

Yea, that first build was ****. The second one is better. I'm still learning a lot from this discussion and even my 2nd build won't be the one I actually TR my barbarian into.

Also, Sireth is steel - so, no Shillelagh with Sireth. ( http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky )

[obscure.jester]

despite what can it be flavor, personal taste and gameplay, i'd like to understand the technical speed difference in dps between this build and a normal str based rogue 20.

this build surely defends better compared to a rogue but, at the end of the day, is its dps in full boost/haste/stance on same level of a massive wagon of d6 dealt by a rogue 20 in haste boost?

here we have 7d6 from rog13 plus 3d6 from ninja, for a total of 10d6 + dex bonus to dmg plus double dmg from PA on a staff. they both have access to epic sneak, thus let's stay on non epic level, both 20.

a rogue 20 in capstone has 14d6 + PA with 2 khopeshes.

having both haste boost, with the first build having an edge on alacrity due to thief acrobatII, which has the better dps?

[Havok.cry]

You know If I was trying to maximize my being missed chance without armor, I would do a dragon marked elf. This gets you displacement without having to scroll it, add in uncanny dodge from rogue levels, a shadow fade clickie from ninja spy, and then the 25% dodge cap and I think that would have you golden. Use displacement at the start of any fight and use weapons that blind, that way your opponents will still have the same miss chance when the displacement wears off.

13rogue/6monk/1fighter Elf
7normal
Least dragon mark (invisible)
Lesser dragon mark (displacement)
great cleave
THF
ITHF
GTHF
I-crit
3monk
toughness
dodge (ninjaspy prereq- for the shadowfade clicky)
power attack
1fighter
cleave
2Epic
Improved sunder
improved sneak attack
or
weapon focus
overwhelming crit

Not necessarily recommending this, but as an excersize for best miss chance without armor as an acrobat, this is what I would do.

[Chette]

having both haste boost, with the first build having an edge on alacrity due to thief acrobatII, which has the better dps?

Better DPS again what? Using what weapons? Wearing with what gear? Having what stats? It's unfortunately not that straight forward. My advice would be to not worry so much about running the math and just see how things play.


orien. and cant afford that much plat, i need it for silver flame pots, low/mid lev gear on TRs (bank slot space troubles) and a present for me every now and again, like another spider spun or an emergency +3 tome.

I hope this doesn't sound elitist (which seems to be an insult people like to throw around these days) because it's really not meant to be, but if that's really the case, that you can't afford a million plat for some of the best items in the game when you already have the parts that some people spend a year farming, then this might not be the best time to be building a new character. You might want to consider focusing on the ones that you have right now and taking the time to build up some resources. Flawless red dragon scales still sell for ~500k and drop about 20% of the time on epic hard, maybe more. Just take a few weeks and run a few dragons and you'll have more than enough to buy the scrolls you need. Trust me, the investment is more than worth it, and anybody with epic level characters should be easily able to scrounge up that amount of money, while getting good XP at the same time, in a short amount of time.

Good luck, I've had a lot of fun with my acrobat, and I'm sure you will too!


You know If I was trying to maximize my being missed chance without armor, I would do a dragon marked elf. This gets you displacement without having to scroll it

No need to scroll it, just make a few greensteel clickies. They're not exclusive, you can have as many as you want, and they're dirt cheap, requiring only tier 1 and 2 ingredients.

[Havok.cry]

No need to scroll it, just make a few greensteel clickies. They're not exclusive, you can have as many as you want, and they're dirt cheap, requiring only tier 1 and 2 ingredients.
Maybe I should have said, "without having to do any swapping of any kind, because swapping is annoying and causes lag"

[wax_on_wax_off]

despite what can it be flavor, personal taste and gameplay, i'd like to understand the technical speed difference in dps between this build and a normal str based rogue 20.

this build surely defends better compared to a rogue but, at the end of the day, is its dps in full boost/haste/stance on same level of a massive wagon of d6 dealt by a rogue 20 in haste boost?

here we have 7d6 from rog13 plus 3d6 from ninja, for a total of 10d6 + dex bonus to dmg plus double dmg from PA on a staff. they both have access to epic sneak, thus let's stay on non epic level, both 20.

a rogue 20 in capstone has 14d6 + PA with 2 khopeshes.

having both haste boost, with the first build having an edge on alacrity due to thief acrobatII, which has the better dps?

The pure rogue. Never build an acrobat for max DPS.

To demonstrate, do the maths on just the sneak attack/hit that each build does using Vanshilar's thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144):
7d6+12 rogue+8 item+5 exceptional item+15 dex=(7*3.5+12+8+5+15)*113.3*1.03/60=125.45 SA/second
17d6+12 rogue+8 item+5 exceptional item=(17*3.5+12+8+5)*102.2*1.83/60=263.4 SA/second (more than double!)

You can add doublestrike and more SA from Shadowdancer PrE but this discrepancy isn't going to change much.

Edit: if you want a build that, imo, gets the best of both worlds then check out "Not your Average Rogue" build in my sig.

[obscure.jester]

exc tread, cheers. that guy did a great job. i dont get this math tho:



7d6+12 rogue+8 item+5 exceptional item+15 dex=(7*3.5+12+8+5+15)*113.3*1.03/60=125.45 SA/second
17d6+12 rogue+8 item+5 exceptional item=(17*3.5+12+8+5)*102.2*1.83/60=263.4 SA/second (more than double!)



this build has 10d6+dex (7 from rog and 3 from ninja) and has access to ISA too, so 13d6+dex for the first.
then we have to consider the first build has a +15% alacrity compared to the second due to acrobat with staves.

staves is 86.50 * (100% + 1.0327 * sum of each boost%)
sum of boost% is haste boost 30 + haste spell 15 + madstone 10 + acrobat 15= 70%

2WF is 99.49 * (100% + 1.2763 * sum of each boost%) and gets around +20% from each boost.
sum of boost% is haste boost 36 + haste spell 18 + madstone 12= 66%

so, acrobat with staves is 86.50*(100%+72.1)
rog with 2WF is 99.49*(100%+83.82)

is this correct?

have to find out if first attack rate, with the addition of dex bonus to damage is inferior, similar or superior to the second attack rate which is faster.

[wax_on_wax_off]

exc tread, cheers. that guy did a great job. i dont get this math tho:



this build has 10d6+dex (7 from rog and 3 from ninja) and has access to ISA too, so 13d6+dex for the first.
then we have to consider the first build has a +15% alacrity compared to the second due to acrobat with staves.

staves is 86.50 * (100% + 1.0327 * sum of each boost%)
sum of boost% is haste boost 30 + haste spell 15 + madstone 10 + acrobat 15= 70%

2WF is 99.49 * (100% + 1.2763 * sum of each boost%) and gets around +20% from each boost.
sum of boost% is haste boost 36 + haste spell 18 + madstone 12= 66%

so, acrobat with staves is 86.50*(100%+72.1)
rog with 2WF is 99.49*(100%+83.82)

is this correct?

have to find out if first attack rate, with the addition of dex bonus to damage is inferior, similar or superior to the second attack rate which is faster.

Madstone doesn't stack with haste, haste boost is available to both but isn't up full time (for a realistic impression of its contribution add all the haste boosts together and the period of time left over in a 10 minute period along with the 1.6 second down time for activating haste boost (unless you have quickdraw which cuts it to 0.8 seconds).

The figures I was using was sneak attack multiplied by TWF'ing hasted (102.2) and quarterstaff style with acrobat and haste (113.3) multiplied by doublestrike chance. 3d6 is only granted at Ninja-spy II which requires 12 monk levels, the build in the OP has 4 monk levels so 0 NS, if you're going to change the build to 13 rogue/6 monk/1 druid then you can get 1d6 from NSI (though it's intensive AP wise - lay it out, see where you stand!).

The haste boosted attack speeds go up to 133.3*1.83/60=4.1 attacks/second for TWF'ing and 140.1*1.03/60=2.4 attacks/second for quarterstaff - also have to consider that a max DPS TWF'ing rogue will be human or half-elf so have versatility: damage for +25% damage while haste boost is active which is *huge!*.

I'm not sure how the numbers play out, feel free to work it out yourself, but it's likely that the TWF'ing build will be doing +50% damage vs single enemies.

Acrobats are good at tactics, survivability, maneuverability, AoE damage etc. Single target DPS when stacked against a khopesh wielding pure assassin? Not so much.

[obscure.jester]

ok, thanks. it comes out, anyway, how much acrobat (and somehow mechanic) are still way nerfed compared to a classic assassin build. what i see is a mecha has better skills but it is not that crucial since even a non mecha can max out what it needs to get rid of any trap in game, thus the slight edge on elemental dmg reduction cant fill the gap in my opinion (repeating crossbows +INT seems nice but have no test for that, cant say if it is worthy or not). if acrobats dont attack "faster" than a normal 2wf rogue, same as above, an immunity to slippery is a poor compensation, even adding dex to dmg because the dps will be anycase lower and slower, and showtime is, as stated in earlier posts, a total waste of haste boost. there might be something i dont consider at the moment but, if things are like this, i think it's a shame.
assassins get more d6 on sneak, a HUGE skill which is instakill and chance to prevent casting with thoughtburn. 3 on 3 very strong things. too much compared to the other 2 prestiges. same is true for some other prestiges like deepwood sniper (am i missing something or there is no need at all of that pre when u have anyway AA?) or hunter of the deads (how many undeads will a lev 18 pally face? waves in abbot then what?).

it is maybe time to ask devs to review some prestiges? as the way i see it, about rogues, a mecha is redoundant with arti class and an acrobat should have fastest attack rate in game, something an hasted and madstoned barbarian cant reach. at the end of the day, they have a d6 for HPs...

[Coyopa]

So, are you thinking about not making this build anymore?

[obscure.jester]

no, no, i will build it anyway to test and see what can be done on the field by myself but still i think some prestiges need revision. badly.

[wax_on_wax_off]

no, no, i will build it anyway to test and see what can be done on the field by myself but still i think some prestiges need revision. badly.

Good. In the end, DPS isn't actually that important in 99% of the game. On the build I mentioned above (Not your average rogue) I was an Acrobat until level 20 as the additional movement speed and knockdown immunity did more for my kill count than what some extra sneak attack die would ever do. Even now I wish I was an Acrobat fairly often (like every time a monk zooms past me and steals a kill), in fact, probably fair to say that acrobat would be a better choice for a low intelligence rogue in almost all quests except EE difficulty.

If I was going to build an Acrobat I'd want to be in armour - PRR is so much easier to get and important - and have 13 rogue levels and at least 1 Druid level. For the rest ... 6 more Druid (for Fatal Harrier, +25% alacrity!), 6 barbarian, 6 fighter (stalwart defender I) or 6 paladin (DoS/HotD swaps) comes to mind.

Don't worry about defenses too much IMO, as others have pointed out there are diminishing returns on them but it is great to approach that 25% dodge cap. I'd be focusing on CC and/or cleaves for the most part.

Build to an ED or to multiple EDs. Legendary Dreadnought makes a great cleaving machine, GMoF gives great CC ability if you do go the unarmoured route, US gives you the possibility to be an evasive tank (preferably combined with 6 fighter or paladin).

For play style I'd be looking to fill secondary roles in raids as there'll often be a character better suited to DPS. Kiting certain mobs (pups in LoB, jailer in ToD etc), tanking (via threat gen, heal amp and stacking miss chances), healing (scrolls) all come to mind.

On that note, half elf or human is better than halforc (for healing amp and the brutal versatility: damage/haste boost combo).

[obscure.jester]

from a side i do understand the lss focusing on dps in favor of some utility skills as eva/side tanking, supporting etc, on the other side it stays kinda a waste dont use dps taking advantage of haste boost and staves alacrity granted.
it is clear in case this build should evolve into sidetank/eva support, horc wont longer be tier1 choice.
hard to renounce to those 6 levs in monk tho as replacing that +6% dodge granted by monk 4+ will take at least 2 or 3 additional gear slots, weakening the build.

[wax_on_wax_off]

from a side i do understand the lss focusing on dps in favor of some utility skills as eva/side tanking, supporting etc, on the other side it stays kinda a waste dont use dps taking advantage of haste boost and staves alacrity granted.
it is clear in case this build should evolve into sidetank/eva support, horc wont longer be tier1 choice.
hard to renounce to those 6 levs in monk tho as replacing that +6% dodge granted by monk 4+ will take at least 2 or 3 additional gear slots, weakening the build.

+14 PRR from light armour and madstone/tensers will save your life more often 6% dodge. It's a similar level of mitigation mathematically but the PRR will soften the big blows so the damage that you take is less spikey which makes it do much easier to stay alive (this is particularly important on EE where taking 180/hit instead of 200 gives the healer a chance to react and heal you when you die in 4 or 5 hits instead of 3 or 4).

When deciding the split I'd look at the overall benefits rather than just dodge, you can even go so far as to write down everything that you can see and do a pros/cons for each option. Lot to like about the sprint boost, +10% move speed, vicious property and bucket of HP that you get from barbarian, IMO.