Archmage Vs Pale Master. Thoughts?

[Phantomizer]

Soooooo.....neither sound appealing by a cursory glance. Archmage.....i don't know, sounds underpowered? Or maybe i'm not seeing something critical here:confused:

Pale Master sounds pretty cool, what with the shrouds and all that, but it kinda looks geared towards a mage that works in melee, which mine doesn't, or rather...i don't care much for that aspect so i feel that going Pale Master wouldn't be ideal.

My character is a lesser reincarnated Drow (i don't remember if it's a 28 or 32 pt build), i dumped everything i had into Int (base 20), rest into Con (base 14) and what was leftover into Dex (base 12). She's lvl 11, but currently sitting at lvl 3 as i'm unsure about the prestieges, they just seem pretty lame compared to what the Sorcerer has, even though their prestieges do have a few cons.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I'm just looking for a plain ol classic Arcane caster...

[BuyTiles]

Soooooo.....neither sound appealing by a cursory glance. Archmage.....i don't know, sounds underpowered? Or maybe i'm not seeing something critical here:confused:

Pale Master sounds pretty cool, what with the shrouds and all that, but it kinda looks geared towards a mage that works in melee, which mine doesn't, or rather...i don't care much for that aspect so i feel that going Pale Master wouldn't be ideal.

My character is a lesser reincarnated Drow (i don't remember if it's a 28 or 32 pt build), i dumped everything i had into Int (base 20), rest into Con (base 14) and what was leftover into Dex (base 12). She's lvl 11, but currently sitting at lvl 3 as i'm unsure about the prestieges, they just seem pretty lame compared to what the Sorcerer has, even though their prestieges do have a few cons.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I'm just looking for a plain ol classic Arcane caster...

Not warfarged? then go PM. Warforged go pale master as well.

Pale master isn't about melee, it's about necro dc's and self healing.

They're a blast to play, and really survivable.

Dex 12 sounds like a total waste of build points. Either take insightful reflexes and dump dex, or put no points into dex. Either points into STR or CHA is far more reasonable.

[Ryan220]

Cant say Ive melee'd past L7 on a PM tbh

My WF AM was/ is great fun, but so is my PM


Of the two I might say PM is easier because you really have to be bad to die

Om my current Wiz life Im trying out a WF PM just for fun (yes I said fun )



This topic has come up multiple times and may be worth searching out.


Imo, if you solo a lot them PM. If you group a lot them AM

[erikbozelie]

the power from the archmage comes with low sp cost spell like abilities that he can learn depending on his school focus.
for example. an evocation archmage gets a spell like ability that allows him to cast magic missile... for 1 sp. maximizing makes that 2sp. rest of the matamagics are free on it.

so you get an maximized, empowered, quickeden, enlarged magic misile for 2sp.
same applies to the other slaś, but you get the point.
this prestige can spam lower level spell every second but most of these have a cooldown of 6 seconds. so 6 per round if you have enough different ones.

the power from the pale master comes with 2 things.
survivability - your aura heals you for around 55sp each 2 seconds. and you have more hp in lich form. with freebee imunities and effects like the boon of undeath. a pale master is tougher to kill.
the other reason is free negative energy enhancements that comes with the class.


a 10sp costing necrotic ray does 1 negative level and about 400points of damage. you also gain some SLA's that alows you to nuke area's with negative energy at the cost of some hp. but the regen overlaps this so basicly free.
these have a cooldown of 3 seconds so you can only spam 2 of these per round(6sec)

[wax_on_wax_off]

PM all the way.

You get 7 base feats and 5 bonus ones:
Base: Mental Toughness (1), Toughness (3), Spell Focus: Necromancy (6), Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy (9), Spell Penetration (12), Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment (15), Greater Spell Penetration (18)
Bonus: Maximise (1), Extend (5), Heighten (10), Spell Focus: Enchantment (15) Quicken (20)

This is what I'd do on a first life drow. No empower there which is a bit controversial but I think the other feats are more important. Go with Archmage at 6 for the extra SP (don't get any of the SLA as they reduce SP). At 12 swap to PMII and only use Wraith form. At 18 swap to Lich and feel the powa!

Note that with the above feats that most of the "base" feats can't be taken as "bonus" feats so need to be careful if you do a different order.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Pale masters are tough & survivable with some handy SP-free damage abilities & high DCs, especially on instakill necromantic spells. Archmages are more specialised & the cheap SLAs can be pretty nice.

I have 2 WF wizzies, 1 a pale master & 1 an evocation archmage... they're both effective in different ways, but i find my evoker archmage with shiradi destiny pure fun to play - however, thats now he has all the abilities to go with it & is harder to level.

If i was rolling a new wizzy, i'd probably go PM till 20th for an easier time, then use the free LR to respec to evoker once i had access to the shiradi destiny.

[licho]

PM all the way.

You get 7 base feats and 5 bonus ones:
Base: Mental Toughness (1), Toughness (3), Spell Focus: Necromancy (6), Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy (9), Spell Penetration (12), Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment (15), Greater Spell Penetration (18)
Bonus: Maximise (1), Extend (5), Heighten (10), Spell Focus: Enchantment (15) Quicken (20)

This is what I'd do on a first life drow. No empower there which is a bit controversial but I think the other feats are more important. Go with Archmage at 6 for the extra SP (don't get any of the SLA as they reduce SP). At 12 swap to PMII and only use Wraith form. At 18 swap to Lich and feel the powa!

Note that with the above feats that most of the "base" feats can't be taken as "bonus" feats so need to be careful if you do a different order.

While i agree with going with AM I and wrait form before lich. (at least it was what i always did)
I see no purpose on wraith after lv18. Which means you can use then your free feat swap to get empower for raid bosses doting.

Also instead of Greater Focus Enchantment, Focus Conjuration may work.
Since drows and golems may be problematic.

Also... i would set heighten higher in levels (like 15/20) since while leveling most often u use your highest level spells so not much to highten.

[Inouk]

While i agree with going with AM I and wrait form before lich. (at least it was what i always did)
I see no purpose on wraith after lv18. Which means you can use then your free feat swap to get empower for raid bosses doting.

Also instead of Greater Focus Enchantment, Focus Conjuration may work.
Since drows and golems may be problematic.

Also... i would set heighten higher in levels (like 15/20) since while leveling most often u use your highest level spells so not much to highten.

I have a 2nd life PM (drow) and a 1st life archmage (WF), and I always find my archmage disappointing by comparison. My AM is primary school enchantment, and even with all his AM bonuses my PM could still match his enchantment DC's at level 20, and exceed his DC's in all other schools. This is for 2 reasons: first PM gets +2 int in lich form which = +1 to all DCs, and second drow gets +2 int = +1 to all DCs. I personally wouldn't go evoker.... if that's your path just play a sorc, they're better at it. Wizards are better for CC and insta-kills, and for those rolls PM is the better option IMO.

For wowow's build the only thing I would change is drop mental toughness for empower (I took mental toughness to get wraith form, then swapped to toughness at 18 for lich form).

[the613]

I have a 2nd life PM (drow) and a 1st life archmage (WF), and I always find my archmage disappointing by comparison. My AM is primary school enchantment, and even with all his AM bonuses my PM could still match his enchantment DC's at level 20, and exceed his DC's in all other schools. This is for 2 reasons: first PM gets +2 int in lich form which = +1 to all DCs, and second drow gets +2 int = +1 to all DCs. I personally wouldn't go evoker.... if that's your path just play a sorc, they're better at it. Wizards are better for CC and insta-kills, and for those rolls PM is the better option IMO.

For wowow's build the only thing I would change is drop mental toughness for empower (I took mental toughness to get wraith form, then swapped to toughness at 18 for lich form).

If looking from a new player's perspective, I definitely wouldn't go a drow PM. A drow PM max int max con has a 14 con compared to a 28 point WF who does the same having 18 int 18 con. Add in 32 point for WF, as drow are always 28 on first life, and a WF has 20 base con. A WF has +2 from racial con enhancements, and 2 more toughness enhancements. That's 80 (28 point WF) or 100 (32 point WF) hp difference. On a player without HP gear, that's lifesaving, especially in the lower levels.


HP calculations:
3 hp per level difference on 28 point WF (+2 from 14 con vs +5 from 20) = 60 hp difference at 20
4 hp per level difference on 32 point WF (+2 from 14 con vs +6 from 22) = 80 hp difference at 20
20 hp difference from extra toughness enhancements

[Inouk]

If looking from a new player's perspective, I definitely wouldn't go a drow PM. A drow PM max int max con has a 14 con compared to a 28 point WF who does the same having 18 int 18 con. Add in 32 point for WF, as drow are always 28 on first life, and a WF has 20 base con. A WF has +2 from racial con enhancements, and 2 more toughness enhancements. That's 80 (28 point WF) or 100 (32 point WF) hp difference. On a player without HP gear, that's lifesaving, especially in the lower levels.


HP calculations:
3 hp per level difference on 28 point WF (+2 from 14 con vs +5 from 20) = 60 hp difference at 20
4 hp per level difference on 32 point WF (+2 from 14 con vs +6 from 22) = 80 hp difference at 20
20 hp difference from extra toughness enhancements

Whatever you do, absolutely positively DO NOT make a WF PM. What a complete and total waste, I can self heal for being PM, or ...I can self heal for being WF! The hit to your ALL IMPORTANT DC's for being WF in no way justifies the additional HP or self repair. If you want to prioritize HP go human, or at worst dwarf.

My Drow PM was able to hit 500 hp (not counting temp) self buffed (by which I mean with just rage and lich form) at level 20, that's more than enough for a ranged, self-healing caster. Losing 20 HP for a few less build pts would not kill the build. Admittedly, I have decent gear (superior FL from robes, 45hp from GS), but nothing that can't be reached with a little farming, and certainly nothing that can't be compensated for by going human.

[Phantomizer]

Thanks for the replies everyone, i suppose i'll try PM and see how that turns out.

This is a character made for fun, not making it the best thing out there as i'm aware that most of the "cool kids" roll around with WF Wizards. I was just looking for something different to do :)

[Kinerd]

Pale master lets you self-heal as a non-WF. This is enormously powerful.
Both prestiges give you +2 to Necromancy DC. This is very powerful.
AM gives you SLA Web. This is pretty powerful.
AM also gives you SLA Hypno. This is not exactly powerful but it is pretty sweet.

Hence:
1. You should always have one.
2. If you are not WF, always PM.
3. If you are a WF, either is fine.
No empower there which is a bit controversial but I think the other feats are more important.Also: no empower is absolutely, objectively correct.
Wizards are better for CC and insta-kills, and for those rolls PM is the better option IMO.The trouble is that a lot of people (mainly melees) have decided that Mass Hold is the alpha and omega of CC. From that perspective, PM is clearly the way to go... but it is just not a good perspective. SLA Web alone tips the CC scales irrevocably in the AM's favor in terms of actually controlling crowds. If you go all out CCer AM also offers SLA Hypno, SLA Dance, superior Enchant DCs (not that I for a moment recommend that).

[Inouk]

Pale master lets you self-heal as a non-WF. This is enormously powerful.
Both prestiges give you +2 to Necromancy DC. This is very powerful.
AM gives you SLA Web. This is pretty powerful.
AM also gives you SLA Hypno. This is not exactly powerful but it is pretty sweet.

Hence:
1. You should always have one.
2. If you are not WF, always PM.
3. If you are a WF, either is fine.Also: no empower is absolutely, objectively correct.The trouble is that a lot of people (mainly melees) have decided that Mass Hold is the alpha and omega of CC. From that perspective, PM is clearly the way to go... but it is just not a good perspective. SLA Web alone tips the CC scales irrevocably in the AM's favor in terms of actually controlling crowds. If you go all out CCer AM also offers SLA Hypno, SLA Dance, superior Enchant DCs (not that I for a moment recommend that).

Well, Drow (or possibly human) PM gets +2 to all DCs over a WF AM. As an AM you can make back those 2 lost DC in primary school (so long as it's not necro), and secondary school to be equal to a PM in your forte, and inferior in all other schools. Sure, you get the SLAs, and that isn't to be underestimated, but if you focus all your DCs and SLAs in conjuration/enchant then you have pigeon holed yourself very badly into 1 role. Having played both, my personal preference is PM as my DC's are just as high in all schools, higher in most schools, and I have SLA's that do damage, plus cheap, effective self healing and insta-kills that are unmatched by AM. That said, I don't have much ED experience, and I hear a WF AM force spec is the top killer in the game *shrug*.

[TheGuyYouKnow]

as a general rule you either want warforge archmage or a drow/human palemaster for self healing purposes

pale masters are healed with their aura and have a burst heal aswell so its more than you need for normal/hard quests and any competant wizard shouldnt have much trouble staying upright elites

warforged only have their reconstruct and reapirs so no healing over time but because it is more burst healing it works better in elite quests

both ways play around the same way but palemasters focus more on instakills and archmagi get to play around with more cheep spells

[Beethoven]

Sure, you get the SLAs, and that isn't to be underestimated, but if you focus all your DCs and SLAs in conjuration/enchant then you have pigeon holed yourself very badly into 1 role.

That' actually incorrect. All it takes to have access to Hypnotism is SF: Enchantment. So, all it takes is sacrifice one feat to get it also on a Necro/Conjuration specc'ed AM.

My wife plays a human PM (plus I tried out PM for a while during a past life on mine). I play a Necro/Conj specc'ed WF AM. So I too have a very good baseline for comparison. Assuming all other things equal (tomes, gear, etc.) the difference in DCs boils down to:

Necromancy: PM +1 higher.
Conjuration: Equal
Enchantment: PM +1 higher, unless one second to hit them with a free Hypno shifts the favor +2 towards the AM, plus if enough fail their save (which they usually do even on EE) it groups them up nicely to follow up with Mass Hold.
All others: +2 for PM

The problem is, "all others" sounds like a lot but ultimately boils down to either fluff or situational spells like Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate. Also, PMs only have the advantage in DCs as long as they are in Lich form, if they go out of form or use Wraith instead their DCs are the same (or in some cases/schools even lower) than the ones of an AM. The difference between well built / well geared AM/PM is so marginal it really boils down on playstyle.

I like the fact that as AM I don't have to worry about specific quests were mobs spam light damage and there are quite a few (including Lava Caves challenges which is my primary token grind). I also found I save myself a lot of SP especially in long quests where (as AM) I have the option to:
* use a combination of Hypnotism and Web in small encounters and let melees clean up.
* use scrolls to heal up after an encounter without having to worry about keeping an aura up.

I also have the comfort of more powerful (quickened) Reconstruct spells in emergency situations and finally, I never been chased through an entire dungeon by the groups own FvS who thinks it is the funniest thing he can make me explode.

So, /for me personally/ the culmination of all those advantages combined makes up for the lack of Necro bolt/blast, lack of sacrificing DCs to the benefit of Incorporeal damage mitigation and/or a ~ +1 DC advantage. The latter is really not only as huge anymore as some people like to make it out. I know enough AM who can make their spells land. There is no bonus for a mob failing their saves by five instead of four points. With the way current endgame works I actually found there were several cases were Wraith > Lich.

Bottom line (to me): both AM and PM have stuff going for them and in the hands of a skilled player, given the right gear, both can rock any content including EE and generally the "more powerful" type will be the one which fits better to the playstyle of the player.

[kilagan800]

I'd say go Pale Master and use Shroud of the Wraith. You become incorporeal and gain a 50% reduction to damage. Also be sure to use a spell resistance item to help reduce damage from those pesky light spells. If you do go PM, leave vampire form alone. It's more for the melee types. Plus you take 4 times the light damage, while in the other forms you take twice the damage.

While playing Shroud in wraith form, I'm able to stand in the middle of those criss-crossing swords while spell casting on the boss and only obtaining a small percentage of damage, which death aura heals up almost instantly. I use wraith form and lich form on my level 19 pale master for certain situations.

Hope this helps, everyone else had a lot of great info!

[Memnir]

I've tried both, and I've found the Archmage to be more fun to play then the Pale Master. For me at least, more fun trumps any degree number-crunching or min/maxing.

My best advice would be to try both out, and stick with which one you enjoy more.

[Drekisen]

PM about melee...not even...maybe if your designing that kind of build...it could probably work too......but PM's are the rulers or fleshy class DC...not just Necro either...but all of them.

WF'ed are best for AM builds.....and are quite powerful as well....but PM's don't have to worry about hitting the Recon hotkey.....and once you get the right gear that aura is gonna keep you alive quite nicely.

WF'ed as a class and AM in general definitely deserve a lot more love IMO.....WF'ed got stripped of some valuable immunities......and AM's are extremely expensive in the AP department.

[Scraap]

If you're 'forged, it's largely a choice of passive vs active self-healing. If not, a question of you or someone else keeping you alive in content where wands and scrolls won't cut it.

If folks give you the impression that PM is more of a melee centric one, it's likely due to torc/conp play in order to stretch the SP bar a bit and fuel the required self-healing, not the PRE it'sself. Particularly since despite the unarmed attack bonuses, the forms don't do the Druid bit, so you'd have to drop your weapons, and attack at the garbage unarmed version rate.

[Torkzed]

I play a WF AM. Having tried both AM and PM, I just like the AM better. I love having my free heightened web SLA, and I prefer the burst healing of reconstruct over the passive aura heals. I have seen the numbers, and I recognize that there is a slight edge to the DCs of PM on the all-important necro spells, but I can hit 45+ in necro,enchant, and conjuration DCs, and that is plenty good enough to be effective in epic hard. I don't spend much time in epic elite since I PUG quite often, so no real reason for me to min/max further.

I say play what you like. (although AM is going to be more challenging if not WF, since you are going to have to fit in enough UMD to reliably heal yourself)

[svinja]

These days the choice is not so clear as it used to be at 20 IMO. Then, you could build an necro+enchantment pale master and when you had to CC your holds and balls worked so well that the almost-free web archmages can get wasn't that much of an advantage. You didn't need better CC than you had.

These days, unless you dump necro DC, a pale master is not very good at CC any more, the spells often don't work well enough to be worth the SP, and on EE necro spells aren't the room-clearers they used to be. So something like a necro+conjuration archmage sounds a lot more attractive than it used to, especially with ED talents, as web is so cheap that it is worth the SP even with the high enemy saves.

Another thing is that while Death Aura is amazing, the PM burst heal is horrible. It negates ~one hit from an EE melee mob for a huge amount of SP. The AM burst heal is very good (if you're WF), and you can heal without using SP with scrolls to somewhat offset the loss of Death Aura.

[Kinerd]

Well, Drow (or possibly human) PM gets +2 to all DCs over a WF AM. As an AM you can make back those 2 lost DC in primary school (so long as it's not necro), and secondary school to be equal to a PM in your forte, and inferior in all other schools. Sure, you get the SLAs, and that isn't to be underestimated, but if you focus all your DCs and SLAs in conjuration/enchant then you have pigeon holed yourself very badly into 1 role. Having played both, my personal preference is PM as my DC's are just as high in all schools, higher in most schools, and I have SLA's that do damage, plus cheap, effective self healing and insta-kills that are unmatched by AM. That said, I don't have much ED experience, and I hear a WF AM force spec is the top killer in the game *shrug*.Like I said, I don't recommend going all-out CCer, but if you want to be the best at CC you have to be an AM. PM just doesn't hold a candle. You mention a lot of other perks PM gets, which I mostly agree with, but the point of contention is CC.