Devs - so what's intended for Adrenaline and ranged?

[Ape_Man]

We hope to restore the originally intended functionality, which includes Adrenaline at least affecting some ranged combat and tactical melee abilities. This did not stem from a desire to completely remove Adrenaline's interactions from ranged combat or from any tactical combat feats.

See the above quote . . . what is the intended functionality?

We were told the current nerfed state was to prevent a bug and the intended functionality will return when that is resolved.

What is the intended functionality?

[Grailhawk]

I'll bet you 100k plat that you never get an answer to this.

[Ape_Man]

I'll bet you 100k plat that you never get an answer to this.

We can dream, hope, and politely nag to get an answer.

[-Avalon-]

I'll bet you 100k plat that you never get an answer to this.

I will bet 100K that even if he gets an answer, the answer won't be one ranged 'exploiter' characters want to hear... And yes, I will call them that, because only a person LOOKING for loopholes would expect Fury of the Wild to even come close to affecting a ranged character...

The only 'ranged' even remotely mentioned, or even implied, in the entire ED is that it allows you to throw a friggin boulder! Come off it people... Go complain that Shiradi is not helpful enough for ranged people, not complain that Fury is no longer affecting you and giving you huge boosts...

Is like complaining that Barbarian Rage prevents you from casting spells :rolleyes:

The answer coming is most likely going to be "It will affect throwing weapons like Axes, but not ranged weapons like crossbows or longbows"...

And then, we will hear more people gripe and complain...

[Ape_Man]

Shiradi's is **** and not worth salvaging. FoTW was never OP and should be restored back to where it was before the nerf.

[-Avalon-]

Like I said, so many people looking for loopholes, and they got spoiled by having their cake and eating it too, that even an ED that looks perfectly viable is considered **** and not even worth saving lol... totally sad IMO... honestly, all the people complaining about FotW not catering to the uber ranged guys, comes off looking really bad to everyone who is NOT part of that crowd...

[Grailhawk]

stuff

Probably wasting my time saying this to you but, you are missing the point its not about Fury being better then Shiradi its that there is no reason to lock people in to one ED if they want ranged damage. Make Fury work the way it was intended (there are dev posts) to work with ranged damage (adrenaline only effecting one shot of a manyshot volley) and it fall's inline (weaker really) with Shiradi of ranged damage but allows people to have choices. Choices in build being this games greatest strength which is something that based on your other posts on this subject is something that I don't think you understand.

That said the best solution is to leave Adrenaline+Manyshot the way it was before and give Shiradi a massive buff to make 100% full time ranged combat a viable option.

[Sonos]

Like I said, so many people looking for loopholes, and they got spoiled by having their cake and eating it too /snip.

What is cake for?

[Sonos]

Like I said, so many people looking for loopholes, and they got spoiled by having their cake and eating it too /snip.

What is the purpose of cake? ;)

[-Avalon-]

Probably wasting my time saying this to you but, you are missing the point its not about Fury being better then Shiradi its that there is no reason to lock people in to one ED if they want ranged damage. Make Fury work the way it was intended (there are dev posts) to work with ranged damage (adrenaline only effecting one shot of a manyshot volley) and it fall's inline (weaker really) with Shiradi of ranged damage but allows people to have choices. Choices in build being this games greatest strength which is something that based on your other posts on this subject is something that I don't think you understand.

That said the best solution is to leave Adrenaline+Manyshot the way it was before and give Shiradi a massive buff to make 100% full time ranged combat a viable option.

I think you are trying too hard to get ED's to fit your build, not find an ED to fit your build... There are TWO, count them TWO, ED's that even attempt to help my character build out, 1 of them gives me almost no benefit, and the other assists my build about 50%... there are twists that I want to use, but I don't even want to try using the ED's they come from!

Anyone that looks at the ED map, can clearly see the thought process the devs had behind it... they ALL are built to extend one/two classes... Unyielding Sentinel is based on paladin, Draconic Incarnate is based on Sorcerer, etc... Shiradi is based on Ranger/Druid, FotW is based on Barbarians!

Go back and check those dev posts again... they nowhere say that they intend the FotW to work with ALL ranged... instead they use ambiguous descriptions... I really think that, much like the boulder throwing ability, that FotW is meant to be a melee ED first, and throwing ED for strength characters. Shiradi is supposed to be the Bow ED...

I think you are trying to FORCE something into the system that is NOT there to begin with... not logically, not mechanics wise, not even conceptually... Fury... not a word that sounds like "Plunking arrows at an enemy from 60 M away"...

And since you wish to force Bow into Fury, why not campaign and crusade for Legendary Dreadnought to have more bow stuff? I mean, Ranged combat has some combat feats/tactical stuff right? So how come LD has no support for it? How come you can't lay waste with a manyshot?? According to you, the ED's are supposed to be about allowing players options and choices... so, every ED should have stuff for Ranged bow or thrown, melee, tanking, arcane casting, divine casting, and trapper stuff too... right?

Because if we only have one or two that benefits any given build, and the more specific and tight-knit the build, the more likely it will be ONE ED that benefits them... That is not choices... right? I mean, come on, when we started our builds we were forced down a path into that ED, right right? Nah, we made choices to specialize our builds so much that they were Min-Maxed efficiency extreme, and then when we get to 20, complain that there is only 1 out 10 ED's that fit our builds...

Old saying, "The choice we make today, decide and limit what choices we will have open for us tomorrow"... You made your build to be the most efficient ranged build you could, and by making those choices, you decided what choices you would have available... don't complain about that now, you set it up for yourself. Don't like it? TR and make a different character... Or, complain that Shiradi (the RANGED ED) is not holding water, and needs to be fixed/buffed, which I am ALL for, because [your favored deity here] knows, Ranged combat could use some buffing!

[Grailhawk]

I think you are trying too hard to get ED's to fit your build, not find an ED to fit your build... There are TWO, count them TWO, ED's that even attempt to help my character build out, 1 of them gives me almost no benefit, and the other assists my build about 50%... there are twists that I want to use, but I don't even want to try using the ED's they come from!

Anyone that looks at the ED map, can clearly see the thought process the devs had behind it... they ALL are built to extend one/two classes... Unyielding Sentinel is based on paladin, Draconic Incarnate is based on Sorcerer, etc... Shiradi is based on Ranger/Druid, FotW is based on Barbarians!

Go back and check those dev posts again... they nowhere say that they intend the FotW to work with ALL ranged... instead they use ambiguous descriptions... I really think that, much like the boulder throwing ability, that FotW is meant to be a melee ED first, and throwing ED for strength characters. Shiradi is supposed to be the Bow ED...

I think you are trying to FORCE something into the system that is NOT there to begin with... not logically, not mechanics wise, not even conceptually... Fury... not a word that sounds like "Plunking arrows at an enemy from 60 M away"...

And since you wish to force Bow into Fury, why not campaign and crusade for Legendary Dreadnought to have more bow stuff? I mean, Ranged combat has some combat feats/tactical stuff right? So how come LD has no support for it? How come you can't lay waste with a manyshot?? According to you, the ED's are supposed to be about allowing players options and choices... so, every ED should have stuff for Ranged bow or thrown, melee, tanking, arcane casting, divine casting, and trapper stuff too... right?

Because if we only have one or two that benefits any given build, and the more specific and tight-knit the build, the more likely it will be ONE ED that benefits them... That is not choices... right? I mean, come on, when we started our builds we were forced down a path into that ED, right right? Nah, we made choices to specialize our builds so much that they were Min-Maxed efficiency extreme, and then when we get to 20, complain that there is only 1 out 10 ED's that fit our builds...

Old saying, "The choice we make today, decide and limit what choices we will have open for us tomorrow"... You made your build to be the most efficient ranged build you could, and by making those choices, you decided what choices you would have available... don't complain about that now, you set it up for yourself. Don't like it? TR and make a different character... Or, complain that Shiradi (the RANGED ED) is not holding water, and needs to be fixed/buffed, which I am ALL for, because [your favored deity here] knows, Ranged combat could use some buffing!

You just spent 7 paragraphs saying limiting build choices is how it should be, clearly you and I are playing this game for very different reasons.

[-Avalon-]

You just spent 7 paragraphs saying limiting build choices is how it should be, clearly you and I are playing this game for very different reasons.

No, I spent 7 paragraphs attempting to explain (several different ways) something that you still are not grasping... I'll leave that for others to ponder...

Simple fact: there are TEN epic destinies. Not 30. How many builds are there? Do some extremely basic math here... If you have hundreds of builds out there, and only 10 ED's... you are GOING to feel limited!! No matter what you WANT, there will inevitably be builds that feel limited to only 1 ED... and odds are, MOST builds will feel that way. YOU think devs should work magic and have every ED work with every build?!?

Sooo... you think I should complain then? Unyielding Sentinel is the only ED that even remotely comes close to doing anything for my build... and even then, does only an ok job of it... You at least have an ED that is BUILT for ranged, you just refuse to use it... by your logic, I should be complaining day in and day out that the character I have is not really benefited all that much by ANY ED... I should be complaining more than you! But I am not, because I realize, I made my decisions, those decisions limited my future decisions...

I, in NO way, said they should not have customization... In fact, what I said was the amount of customization you make up front limits the amount you can have at the end... a pure 20 Fighter that is a very boring straight forward build, can pick (and get a lot of benefit from) Unyielding Sentinel, Legendary Dreadnought, Fury of the Wild, Shiradi Champion, Shadowdancer... Sounds like no customization up front equaled a TON of choices later...

YOU picked a very specialized and customized build, you made all your "I'm a unique clone of every other Uber Ranged guy" choices and customizations up front... And then when you get to the end, you gripe that only ONE ED fits your build?!? Get over it... You made the decisions, no one forced you, and now you want the devs to conform to what YOU want, not what is best for the game... Good job!!

[sephiroth1084]

What is your horse in this race, Avalon? You've spent an awful lot of hot air here arguing that the previous functionality shouldn't be returned, but why? What do you care?

As for the actual point here, EDs should be expanded to apply to more classes and builds, not fewer. The EDs that grant +1 caster level should be doing so for all casting classes. The Dreadnought abilities that would make sense to work for handwraps, but don't, should. Adrenaline should work for ranged combat again.

[-Avalon-]

What is your horse in this race, Avalon? You've spent an awful lot of hot air here arguing that the previous functionality shouldn't be returned, but why? What do you care?

As for the actual point here, EDs should be expanded to apply to more classes and builds, not fewer. The EDs that grant +1 caster level should be doing so for all casting classes. The Dreadnought abilities that would make sense to work for handwraps, but don't, should. Adrenaline should work for ranged combat again.

Agree and Disagree... my horse is in having a well-designed system that works. Not in catering to every whim because people found a loophole and the devs took it away... Imagine if Barbarian rage bonuses worked on Spell Damage... Think of some of the builds that would show up (and likely be extremely OP): 11 Barb/9 Wizard? Or something else... then let's add that CL thing you are referring to... Now, we can have an Unyielding Sentinel 11 Barb/9 Wiz, that casts spells as a 14 Wiz and gets spell damage bonuses as if he were a greater raged melee! RA!!!!

But, no... that would not be good game design, and probably lead to some really awkward overpowered builds....

Logically, Fury of the Wild is ALL about melee, anyone reading the abilities should be able to see that... the fact that someone decided to use it for ranged? Makes no sense... like many have said, for ranged, it should support throwing ranged builds...

Everyone I see crying about adrenaline not affecting ranged, has previously talked about how they can do OMG amounts of damage, and often, they have said they could out DPS anyone in game now... Yep, that seems fair and balanced... And when they took it away, now they cry that they can no longer deal any damage at all, and that the devs must only support casters and melees because they won't let ranged even get close to the DPS they do (yet before were screaming for joy at the ability to DWARF anyone else's DPS)... No, these people were doing something they KNEW was not WAI, and now cry about the devs trying to fix it.

I bet that when the devs DO fix it, that all those people will STILL be peeved about it, saying it is so nerfed as to make Shiradi a better choice, and Shiradi is a broken worthless ED (that only makes them do as much DPS as is intended, yep)

I think ED's should embrace more classes and builds, yes... we should have an ED like Legendary Dreadnought, for Ranged... something like "Peerless Marksman" or whatever... a martial ED for ranged builds, may even give support to casters who choose to focus on Ray/Arrow-type spells?

It is not that I think they do not deserve support, it is that I think they are barking up the wrong ED Tree...

We have had several types of Archer in D&D history, but the main two have been a Martial type, and a Woodland type... the woodland type was always seen as inferior in capabilities because well, they prance around in the woods and play with bows... YAY! Whereas the martial one had all the feats, skills, etc, was a hardcore disciplined sniper type...

I think ranged people would be better for it if Turbine made an ED that was martial, give it abilities that would allow for +1[w] on all ranged attacks as one of the first passives, maybe have Metalline as a passive granted at a higher level so that archers didn't even have to worry about DR of a material type (marksmen are supposed to be able to find the weak spots and all that right?)... maybe even have a bought ability (tier 3 maybe) that says, "Grants the marksman the ability to coat arrows with poison" and when you use it, it opens a window like protection from energy does, where you can pick which poison you want to use (and hotkey them for faster use later)... like Stat draining poison (drains 1 from each stat if the fail fort save of 20+1/2 lvl+str/dex/int), DoT poison, Slow Poison (slows the target), etc... If they actually focused the ED on ranged like LD is focused on melee, then I think Ranged people would be much happier...

[sephiroth1084]

So, your entire argument is based on nothing more than your own arbitrary feelings on what is and isn't appropriate?

We have bowbarians in the game, which are very similar to a Fury of the Wild with a bow. if there are any problems with Adrenaline on ranged attacks, they are applying Adrenaline on each shot in a volley of Manyshot, and the epic moment giving shots of Adrenaline too often. Those are both fixable, and with those fixed, this ED isn't OP for archers.

There's no reason for the ED to not work with archery. As it is, it's already kind of weak for archers, since you have to swap to melee in order to charge up your Adrenaline uses.

If FotW ends up being stronger than Shiradi Champion for archers (I'm not convinced it is), then SC needs some modifications (it does). A lot of people just aren't excited about nearly all of the major gains from SC being wrapped up in 7% activation chances.

Monk 6 makes for a better archer than ranger, fighter or barbarian does. Does that mean Ten Thousand Stars is OP? NO. It means that everyone else is missing tools to be competitive archers. Even with 10K Stars and FoTW, archers are dealing much less damage than melees. Giving them tools to be more competitive isn't broken or inappropriate.

[-Avalon-]

So, your entire argument is based on nothing more than your own arbitrary feelings on what is and isn't appropriate?

We have bowbarians in the game, which are very similar to a Fury of the Wild with a bow. if there are any problems with Adrenaline on ranged attacks, they are applying Adrenaline on each shot in a volley of Manyshot, and the epic moment giving shots of Adrenaline too often. Those are both fixable, and with those fixed, this ED isn't OP for archers.

There's no reason for the ED to not work with archery. As it is, it's already kind of weak for archers, since you have to swap to melee in order to charge up your Adrenaline uses.

If FotW ends up being stronger than Shiradi Champion for archers (I'm not convinced it is), then SC needs some modifications (it does). A lot of people just aren't excited about nearly all of the major gains from SC being wrapped up in 7% activation chances.

Monk 6 makes for a better archer than ranger, fighter or barbarian does. Does that mean Ten Thousand Stars is OP? NO. It means that everyone else is missing tools to be competitive archers. Even with 10K Stars and FoTW, archers are dealing much less damage than melees. Giving them tools to be more competitive isn't broken or inappropriate.

Not exactly arbitrary when your own comment points out the problem... If the ED makes you whip out a melee weapon and use it to build up the main focus of the build (adrenaline)... then tell me... what is the focus in this build? Melee or Ranged? Which is more likely, that they intended it to be Melee and ALL ranged? or Melee and SOME ranged (throwing weapons, like the boulder ability), and that it was a glitch that it worked on bows as well?

Reading FotW, I think of a Giant, not an elf that is preventing deforestation by the dwarves and orcs... As I have pointed out before, you are shooting your bow, some guy charges up and gets in your face, making you put away your bow, you whip out a couple of swords and begin beating his butt, but he gets you so peeved that your eyes flash red, your blood is pumping and an internal rage screams to be let out, so you SCREAM a warcry and RUN AWAY from him yanking out your bow and let loose a volley of... tiny wooden sticks with points...

Something seems horribly awry with this scenario... I think the devs meant the ED one way, and players (who inevitably try and find loopholes) are trying to force the ED into something it is not...

the scenario would be much more believable like this:
you are shooting your bow, some guy charges up and gets in your face, making you put away your bow, you whip out a couple of swords and begin beating his butt, but he gets you so peeved that your eyes flash red, your blood is pumping and an internal rage screams to be let out, so you SCREAM a warcry, and pummel him so hard he has to run away for fear of his life... you in turn yank the largest boulder you can find from the ground and hurl it at his cowardly fleeing rear, crushing the life from him. When the rage dissipates and your blood cools, you collect your bow again...

[-Avalon-]

Btw, I explained the situation and let my 12 year old and 9 year old read up on it... Both say it is dumb/******** that a person would fly into a rage then run away and fire arrows... so, yeah, cool, go ahead and think that you should be perfectly justified in thinking that you can use melee weapons, build up a rage, then run away and fire arrows... Just know that a couple of adolescent children even think it makes no sense... :p

[Brennie]

Btw, I explained the situation and let my 12 year old and 9 year old read up on it... Both say it is dumb/******** that a person would fly into a rage then run away and fire arrows... so, yeah, cool, go ahead and think that you should be perfectly justified in thinking that you can use melee weapons, build up a rage, then run away and fire arrows... Just know that a couple of adolescent children even think it makes no sense... :p

Sometimes one has to bend the rules of credulity in order to achieve game balance. Using Adrenaline while firing arrows makes about as much sense as going into a berserker rage and firing arrows (Which, i remind you, is perfectly viable in DDO at present).

While i don't thikn adrenaline shoudl affect an entire 20 secodns of manyshot, making it permenantly unavailable for ranged combat would make this entire destiny pretty much unworkable for a primarily ranged character. And considering this destiny is in teh primal tree, right next to the supposed "Ranger" destiny, there shoudl probably be atleast SOME effort to make it synergize well with the other "nature" classes that jump into it (As an example, Unyeilding Sentinal has bits and peices that help out divine caster types, despite the fact it is more oriented to a defender-y paladin).

Frankly, every Destiny should try to cater to as many different playstyles as possible, even if it primarily focuses on a single type (Glancing blows bonuses is a perfect example of this. Many melee types can gain benefit from the tree, but only THF have a real specialty here). If this is 8not* done, then many of the Destinies will seem unpleasant for different types of characters/builds, which will mean attempting to XP through them for fate points will be... well, unpleasant!

And this comes down to my guiding philosophy when it comes to video games: they shouldn't be unpleasant experiences.

[sephiroth1084]

No mention from the devs to indicate that being able to use ranged attacks with Adrenaline was a glitch or loophole or anything of the kind.

The fact is, we have raging archers in the game, which has roughly the same flavor as using Adrenaline.

As for Adrenaline only being rechargeable with melee attacks, that can just as easily be a result of the devs' inability to code things equitably for archers. Numerous items and abilities don't work for ranged attacks without any rhyme or reason, monks can take Zen Archery to stay centered with bows, but don't gain Ki from using them, can't use Ki strikes with them, and don't gain a +[W] bonus with them from either Improved Martial Arts or Dance of Flowers (or whatever the GMoF ability is called), despite these working for all other monk weapons.

Then there's the fact that, other than 10K Stars, archers haven't received any significant DPS gains in years, except of course for Archer's Focus, which doesn't work with Improved Precise Shot or Manyshot and is cumbersome.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Btw, I explained the situation and let my 12 year old and 9 year old read up on it... Both say it is dumb/******** that a person would fly into a rage then run away and fire arrows... so, yeah, cool, go ahead and think that you should be perfectly justified in thinking that you can use melee weapons, build up a rage, then run away and fire arrows... Just know that a couple of adolescent children even think it makes no sense... :p

It's called going postal. Happens quite a bit.

[-Avalon-]

It's called going postal. Happens quite a bit.

Actually, no it doesn't... Tell me, when was the last time you saw someone go into work mad as hell, with a baseball bat tearing everything up, THEN pull out a gun and start shooting people?

Really does not happen much at all... They go in mad as hell and start unloading the clips... no melee weapon was ever included, and the rage actually HURTS their ability to do damage because their aim is off from not thinking clearly. The fact that even a .22 does lethal damage to a person with peasant's HP is what kills them...

Not the fact that being so utterly peeved that they could rip a tree from the ground ASSISTS the bullets into being more forceful lol...

Now, if they had a baseball bat studded with bullets... that would be interesting as well as a different story ;)

[-Avalon-]

Sometimes one has to bend the rules of credulity in order to achieve game balance. Using Adrenaline while firing arrows makes about as much sense as going into a berserker rage and firing arrows (Which, i remind you, is perfectly viable in DDO at present).

While i don't thikn adrenaline shoudl affect an entire 20 secodns of manyshot, making it permenantly unavailable for ranged combat would make this entire destiny pretty much unworkable for a primarily ranged character. And considering this destiny is in teh primal tree, right next to the supposed "Ranger" destiny, there shoudl probably be atleast SOME effort to make it synergize well with the other "nature" classes that jump into it (As an example, Unyeilding Sentinal has bits and peices that help out divine caster types, despite the fact it is more oriented to a defender-y paladin).

Frankly, every Destiny should try to cater to as many different playstyles as possible, even if it primarily focuses on a single type (Glancing blows bonuses is a perfect example of this. Many melee types can gain benefit from the tree, but only THF have a real specialty here). If this is 8not* done, then many of the Destinies will seem unpleasant for different types of characters/builds, which will mean attempting to XP through them for fate points will be... well, unpleasant!

And this comes down to my guiding philosophy when it comes to video games: they shouldn't be unpleasant experiences.

I agree, FotW should (and DOES) benefit other primal classes... it does it already! Druids mostly melee... Rangers get TWF and all improvements for it, along with being tempests... Hmmm, sounds like there is plenty of room for both in the FotW ED... Someone said there are BowBarbs... and we know Rangers that go AA use bows... and I imagine some druids go with ranged... so all are helped by Shiradi as well...

Sooo... what is left is, that people who are Ranged want a non-ranged ED to cater to them, instead of picking the ranged one, or going with a melee build and picking the melee one... Seems to me, they have one that caters to one type, and one that does the other... but people who are the wrong type want everything to be THEIR way...

Sooo... My arcane knight/Death Knight build... when I get to Shiradi to grind out fate points... hmmm, how much am I going to use in that tree? what about shadowdancer? or fatesinger, or /gah Grandmaster of Flowers sheesh....

Stop wanting everything YOUR way, go with the flow, not everything has to be geared to YOUR character, let others have their really cool stuff too... otherwise, every ED will pretty much be a variation of a bland ED template where every ED benefits everyone, but they all mysteriously look about the same...

Fighters have their bonuses, and don't cast spells... Barbarians are same... But when I cross-class a wizard to either of them, I need to expect to have some issues... they don't just continue to build on my casting level... welcome to how D&D works... some build ideas are just... dumb! We don't try and make all of them the same just because they are not "US"...

[Dieterstrife]

No mention from the devs to indicate that being able to use ranged attacks with Adrenaline was a glitch or loophole or anything of the kind.

The fact is, we have raging archers in the game, which has roughly the same flavor as using Adrenaline.

As for Adrenaline only being rechargeable with melee attacks, that can just as easily be a result of the devs' inability to code things equitably for archers. Numerous items and abilities don't work for ranged attacks without any rhyme or reason, monks can take Zen Archery to stay centered with bows, but don't gain Ki from using them, can't use Ki strikes with them, and don't gain a +[W] bonus with them from either Improved Martial Arts or Dance of Flowers (or whatever the GMoF ability is called), despite these working for all other monk weapons.

Then there's the fact that, other than 10K Stars, archers haven't received any significant DPS gains in years, except of course for Archer's Focus, which doesn't work with Improved Precise Shot or Manyshot and is cumbersome.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4537580&postcount=85

[-Avalon-]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4537580&postcount=85

Ranged could mean with bows/xbows or could also mean just Thrown... could be all 3... could mean ray attacks from casters... until the are less ambiguous about the word ranged...