A Cleric Tied to a chair

[Karavek]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

Finally his merciful heart filled with a dark anger and with a whisper he walked free of his bonds. The fighter and barbarian found themselves forced to their knees with a single word.

The cleric did not turn back as he walked from those who had kept him in bondage for too long. Not even when the comets fell from the sky and left the scene a smoking crater, though a wicked smile sat upon his lips.



The above is my interpretation of what has been done to those playing the cleric since year one and the backlash they have received since that brings so many complaints and nerfs to all those who walk with the divine.

[Khatzhas]

Haven't I seen this somewhere before?

[Rauven]

Was Clint Eastwood involved? You know how he likes chairs.

[Rawrargh]

Original post:
Complain all you want, but a cleric that refuse to heal a fighter/barb is a bad cleric.

Added:
Think I might have to edit this post since reading comprehension is apparently a big issue and I keep getting neg repped for stating the obvious.
REFUSE: Definition: to say that you will not do or accept something.
By saying you do not want to heal a barb/fighter as the OP pretty much said, you're being a bad cleric.
There are times when it's not worth the effort, but honestly it's rare. I have played 3 divine lives and as long as people aren't completely incompetent (notice people, not the class) healing the mellees along with the other stuff a cleric or a favored soul can do, is by far the quickest and most enjoyable way to completion.

I'm not saying be a healbot, I'm saying that REFUSING to heal is a bad player being a bad player, if you disagree, then you're probably a bad player too.

... More neg rep incoming...

[Mubjon]

Complain all you want, but a cleric that refuse to heal a fighter/barb is a bad cleric.

I do not think that was the problem, the problem is when the cleric is doing something other than sitting there picking their nose waiting for the red bars to drop ;)

[User164]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

Finally his merciful heart filled with a dark anger and with a whisper he walked free of his bonds. The fighter and barbarian found themselves forced to their knees with a single word.

The cleric did not turn back as he walked from those who had kept him in bondage for too long. Not even when the comets fell from the sky and left the scene a smoking crater, though a wicked smile sat upon his lips.



The above is my interpretation of what has been done to those playing the cleric since year one and the backlash they have received since that brings so many complaints and nerfs to all those who walk with the divine.

Too True. Plus when the cleric is healing, they complain that he or she is using too many SP's....
Leave the ones that complain on their own, follow the leader and keep the story going...
Cheers

[Habreno]

Complain all you want, but a cleric that refuse to heal a fighter/barb is a bad cleric.

Don't join my BYOH groups.


And until I see you doing the things I am doing, which would for the record be holding aggro on the boss, healing everyone including myself, and offensive casting, I would be thankful I am taking up my precious SP to heal someone who can do less than I can.

[Khatzhas]

Complain all you want, but a cleric that refuse to heal a fighter/barb is a bad cleric.


Too True. Plus when the cleric is healing, they complain that he or she is using too many SP's....
Leave the ones that complain on their own, follow the leader and keep the story going...
Cheers
How many times is this really an issue though?

In the absence of other factors, if a cleric sees a party member needing a heal, has a heal available, and decides not to use it, they probably are a bad cleric. But they are probably not that good a person either.
If any party member sees another party member in trouble, has a way to help available to them, and decides not to help out, then they are probably a bad whatever they are, whether it be cleric, wizard, fighter or barbarian.
And while those incidents you do remember, they really aren't that common.

Likewise, there are people who (unsolicited) start telling the cleric when and how they should be healing. Just like telling the wizard who they should be CCing, the fighter how to tank, and the barbarian who to trip and when they should be cleaving. Advice is one thing. Being told how to play is another.
Yes, they are being a jerk. But in my experience, its really not that common. It just really sticks in the mind when it does happen.

[erikbozelie]

yup the feel of " our sp bar being an extention to the melee-s hp bar" has always been an rather... issue.
where does this strange idea comes from where divines only ability is to do nothing else then heal and buff.

i kindof know, mostly from desperate unselfsufficient melee types that think the above.
that you cant self heal as a barb or fighter okay, but do you really need an on person heal every cooldown to keep a 50% healing amp fighter alive?

wouldnt it be better to throw some crowed controll like mass command and comet fall to avoid any damage?
or better yet with some solid CC from an arcane / alternative party member you can even contribute in melee dps? wow!

if that opens up your mind, think about this..



there are more melee on the server then divines.
there are more dead-weight melee on the server then bad divines.
when pugging most divines will do better then the bad melee-s.
if build(this is gear intensive) well divines can also drop the healing aspect aslong,
as he or she contributes enough to the party to matter. contribute as a full party member
instead of being a 50/50. ( always let the pt know your role).

divines are no slaves to your hp bar!



here is my old mothballed warpriest bio. your more then welcome to copy it:

For those who dont know it, I am a Warpriest, I bring war and death, not healing and love.
I cook fluffy for dinner, i do not pet him. I am not responsable for your health, damaged direct, indirect, accidental by monsters, traps, or stupidity.
By accepting this Warpriest in your party, you accept it as is and agree to my disclaimer of all warranties, express or implied as well as disclaimers of all liability, which may arise from the invitation of this warpriest in your party.

[Khatzhas]

yup the feel of " our sp bar being an extention to the melee-s hp bar" has always been an rather... issue.
where does this strange idea comes from where divines only ability is to do nothing else then heal and buff. As far as I can tell, mostly from the forums, from threads like this, by healers talking about what they think other classes are like. It seems to be a self-perpetuating myth, with little basis in actual reality.
I'm sure that there must have been occasions when it has occurred, but I've yet to see one.
I've never run into this actually in-game from anyone who wasn't simply new to DDO and stuck in habits based on other MMOs.

There have been times when I'm playing the group healer and people have said something along the lines of "You might want to watch your SP, it gets harder." But I have yet to have anyone say anything like "Stop casting/fighting, you're only here to heal us."
On the flipside, there have been occasions where I have had to say "Sorry. I'm going to have to let you die." And sometimes the player understands, and sometimes they don't and get huffy. In the majority of cases however, the group will understand the reasons.


i kindof know, mostly from desperate unselfsufficient melee types that think the above.
that you cant self heal as a barb or fighter okay, but do you really need an on person heal every cooldown to keep a 50% healing amp fighter alive? How long ago did this incident occur?


wouldnt it be better to throw some crowed controll like mass command and comet fall to avoid any damage?
or better yet with some solid CC from an arcane / alternative party member you can even contribute in melee dps? wow! Good healers already do this.

[Potta]

Not once have I ever seen this attitude in game. Not on either of my healers nor on my melee. If anything, what I have noticed is the total opposite.

While TR'ing, I've noticed a particular trend whereby people who have the capacity to self heal seem to take that as them being better than those who cannot. If you can't BYOH or be self sufficient, you're worthy of a party kick because those who otherwise would be able to heal you are too busy doing mediocre dps instead of letting the rest of their party maximise their own DPS without swapping to wands/scrolls, or LoS'ing mobs, or wasting time chugging CSW pots. That's what self sufficiency is when you're levelling. It's not Silver Flame Pots or Heal scrolls. It's Cure Serious Pots, and beyond level 7 or so they're useless.

Many seem to not realise the fact that having a healing ability on your spell list doesn't make you better or your build superior. People should not be beaten down for picking a build that isn't as self sufficient as theirs because that'd leave us with no Barbarians, Fighters or Dark Monks. It'd mean we'd see no other race than Half-Elf for the Dilly, and if you were a non-Arcane WF, well, you might as well just skip rerolling and uninstall the game. A community that fosters the BYOH mindset stifles build diversity for the sake of the least important aspect of those builds: the levelling process; because unless you're chaining TRs, most builds will be designed primarily to function at cap, not to farm Shadow Crypt and VoN 3. It also has a hugely detrimental effect on the ability of the game to hold on to new players who are understandably both unaware of the community expectations and incapable of doing much to live up to them if they did happen to know.

Why is this relevant? Because I see this elitism every time I TR. I have never seen a party disrespect their healer. If there is any group of classes within the game that is guilty of hostility towards others who do not play or build exactly as they want, it is very clearly the divines. Those capable of aiding their party but unwilling. They are the kind of players that will tell the 5 others in their party how to build and play their characters while simultaneously developing a victim complex from the expectation of the rest of the party that they heal. The rest of your party requiring you to do something they cannot isn't some great conspiracy to keep you down. It's playing smart.

There's no such thing as a smart healer who groups with 5 morons whom he out DPS's to such a point that it's better for the group for him to carry them in his backpack to the finish. Because a smart player in such a group would leave and solo the dungeon faster thanks to scaling.

If anything, healers are overvalued and given too much gratitude by parties. I get compliments for healing on my divine all the time. Praise for playing well when I know for a fact that I've done nothing special. I've performed a job adequately, but it was not difficult enough to warrant praise. I could have been replaced by any other average healer and the party would have gotten the same result. Other times on my Monk, I'll have carried the entire party. Had an EiN saved to wipe out a spawn that killed the healer and half the party; a rez clicky to get them back up. My damage and kills outshine the rest of the DPS to the point where you could add all the kills from the rest of the party together and it'd still be less than mine. I know when I play like that on my Monk, I've been a lot more instrumental to the success of this party than most of runs on my Divine, but it's never mentioned.

Now, I realise that my experience is anecdotal, but, I cannot help but consider this issue in different terms. Imagine a friend who complains that the last 8 girls he has dated have all dumped him. Instead of taking a hint, this friend thinks the source of his problem is that women are stupid. The idiocy in this hypothetical friend is the same kind of thing I see in theads and complaints like this. If every party you've been in complains that you should spend more time healing, or you're not healing well enough, it's very unlikely that you're only playing with rude people. It's far more likely that they have a point and you're just bad.

[Mubjon]

I see this happening with melees at least 1 time a week. And I never group with the idiot again after they pull the whole "Hjeal me and do nothing else". Now it might be the time of the day I play compared to the two that say they never seen it. It might be the fact that I pug more than they do and they run with guildies and friends mostly. But, to say it does not happen because you do not see it means nothing.

I have ran into this type of melee in epic content as well, running epic hard where the party took very little damage and no one was even close to getting below 50% at any encounter. So it is not just running content at the heroic level on elite. It has gotten to the point that I put in my bio that I charge 50K plat to babysit or to be told how to play my character. And I never join groups that put "need healer" in the description so it is not as if I am joining a group that feels they need a glorified hireling.

[Potta]

I pug a lot, if it was truly as common as you suggest, I'd have seen it by now.

And I didn't say it does not happen. Just that I've never seen it. My theory is that if it never happens to some, and always happens to others, the problem isn't widespread. It's confined to those it's happening too. The immediate explanation for that is that you're somehow causing these complaints. I don't know how. Maybe their complaints are justified, maybe your attempt at DPS is counterproductive, or maybe what you say in conversation on voice or party chat is inciting them to not like you.

Or maybe I have a sixth sense that wards me away from grouping with morons. That seems less likely though.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Were you ever in a byoh group on a sorc or ranger or rogue or (some class that can heal but isnt a 'healer') and you throw a fighter or barb a heal when they were about to go ding?

Total, 180 degree different reaction if you were a cleric or fvs.

[Potta]

Were you ever in a byoh group on a sorc or ranger or rogue or (some class that can heal but isnt a 'healer') and you throw a fighter or barb a heal when they were about to go ding?

Total, 180 degree different reaction if you were a cleric or fvs.


If you're implying that the former would be remarked upon and the latter would be ignored, then, no. I do not agree.

I've played melee lives with a cleric Dilly. I've done just that and had it go completely unnoticed. I assume the other player thought a divine caster did it, or that I was just looking out for the groups 10% xp bonus (hint: I was).

This morning, I healed people just about to die on my Divine and got thanked several times. Someone did die and they apologized to me for being too squishy. This is my common experience on a healer, so I really do not see where on earth these complaints are coming from.

[SirValentine]

Complain all you want, but a cleric that refuse to heal a fighter/barb is a bad cleric.

Yup, clearly a Cleric who refuses to join that "NEED HJEALER!!1" LFM with 5 fighter/barb in it, and just goes and runs the same quest solo on Elite at level, is a very, very bad person/player/Cleric.

Or the Cleric who joins the BYOH run and refuses to heal is a bad Cleric. Or the Cleric who's CCing instead of healing because they happen to be the only decent CC in the party is a bad Cleric. Or the Cleric who refuses to chase after a fighter/barb who went running off down some random side passage is a bad Cleric. Or the Cleric who refuses to cast a single healing SPELL, but has their aura running constantly for anyone smart enough to stand in it, is a bad Cleric.

Pretty much any Cleric who's actually playing effectively is a "bad Cleric"...in the view of a bad fighter/barb.

[SirValentine]

Not once have I ever seen this attitude in game.
<snip>
I have never seen a party disrespect their healer.


What server do you play on? What typical level range?

It's not everywhere, but I've found it common enough to run into frequently, both as a divine and not.

Good players tend to, a) be more self-sufficient, and b) realize that Cleric is a powerful class that can do so much more than hjealbot.



People should not be beaten down for picking a build that isn't as self sufficient as theirs
<snip>
A community that fosters the BYOH mindset stifles build diversity
<snip>
It also has a hugely detrimental effect on the ability of the game to hold on to new players


People should pick a build they will find fun. But many of them don't realize beforehand that standing around in the Marketplace with a "need hjealer" LFM up, instead of questing, for hours on end, isn't fun.

A community that helps people avoid that is making the game more fun, and more able to hold onto new players.



The rest of your party requiring you to do something they cannot isn't some great conspiracy to keep you down. It's playing smart.


Something they can't...cast Implosion? If you mean healing, you talked about it yourself...they CAN. The community urging you to be able to self-heal isn't a great conspiracy to keep you down, it's playing smart!



There's no such thing as a smart healer who groups with 5 morons whom he out DPS's to such a point that it's better for the group for him to carry them in his backpack to the finish.


Wow...like I asked, what server do you play on? There's plenty of morons around anywhere I've played.



If anything, healers are overvalued and given too much gratitude by parties.


Yes. It encourages people who could develop into compentent divines to instead get stuck thinking they should be useless hjealbots.

[grayham]

I have rarely seen this kind of behaviour in all my time gaming, and I have a capped cleric and am levelling a FvS. I don't think this kind of things does any good to inter-class relations and it won't encourage anybody to roll up a cleric. Also, typecasting all barbs as mindless fools reliant on healers is misguided. Myself and every Barb I know on Thelanis has access to SF pots and the capped players have twisted in Healing spring in addition.

But hey, don't mind me.

[Wildseed]

I've been asked if I heal on my H'orc cleric who carries a green steel great-axe, I've also been told I shouldn't be in melee when that's where my aura does the most good,(in actuality I was asked "Why was a cleric in melee?" I ignored the question) so yes I've seen it. For the one who hasn't seen it.... consider yourself lucky, keep playing and you will see it.

[susiedupfer]

I must be on the wrong server. REALLY! Because I am on Orien, and every week I am not in TR with buddies(I NEVER PUG TR), I get told to save my sp for healing. By multi-TRs. Almost inevitably by barbs or fighters. People who should recognize that those wings around my name mean I do have a clue how to manage my sp bar. I also get told to HJEAL frequently. Almost every time by barbs/fighters/monks, and always by those who have gotten themselves out of my range, and far away from the rest of the party.

I think we need a thread on how to get and keep decent divines willing to party with you more than once.

[Khatzhas]

Yup, clearly a Cleric who refuses to join that "NEED HJEALER!!1" LFM with 5 fighter/barb in it, and just goes and runs the same quest solo on Elite at level, is a very, very bad person/player/Cleric. No. If they aren't in a group as a healer, why would a cleric be under any requirement to go heal?


Pretty much any Cleric who's actually playing effectively is a "bad Cleric"...in the view of a bad fighter/barb. Note your qualifier: a bad fighter/barb.
As pointed out in this thread, you get bad players of any class. The bad melee players are just more noticeable by healers because the game mechanics are set up in such a way to render most melee reliant on them.


Something they can't...cast Implosion? If you mean healing, you talked about it yourself...they CAN. The community urging you to be able to self-heal isn't a great conspiracy to keep you down, it's playing smart! There are only a few classes that are capable of effective, in-combat pinch healing.
Out of combat? Sure. As long as the group does not mind waiting around, most characters can be built so that they can pot or wand themselves back up to full eventually, without their build losing too much effectiveness for their role. Most second-life characters or alts can afford the platinum cost without difficulty.
Actually in combat when its really needed? Normal potions can't keep up with the damage, and swapping into UMD gear to start wanding not only is not viable, it means that you are ceasing to support the group in the role that you are viable at.


Wow...like I asked, what server do you play on? There's plenty of morons around anywhere I've played. I don't think anyone is claiming that they have never run into morons:
"Why no heals?" "They have a range. I saw you kick in that sprint boost as you ran off."
"Try to let the Dwarf take the damage please." "lol. I have more health than him." "You have no healer's friend as far as I can tell. That means that you have less health than the rogue when it comes to keeping you alive."
"Why did you let me die?" "Because when I've tried healing you before it didn't work. If you tell me when you drop out of undead form and hang back a bit, I should be able to keep you alive."
. . . And so on. Every other healer has similar stories. But the "Healers are only there to heal us" mentality? Never encountered that, and no one other than on the forums has ever mentioned it to me. As said before: I'm sure it has happened, but I really don't think that that particular stupidity is as common as portrayed in the usual melee-bashing threads in the forums.


Yes. It encourages people who could develop into compentent divines to instead get stuck thinking they should be useless hjealbots. Different styles appeal to different people. I know some clerics who do play as dedicated support and healers, because they like having a nice, well-defined role. They are usually relatively new, and only start branching out later when they know the game and the quests more. Are they playing their class to its fullest extent? Most certainly not. But many groups are willing to take someone along to show them the quest, and it generally is a role that needs filling, so its not a case of them feeling carried.

[SirValentine]

If they aren't in a group as a healer, why would a cleric be under any requirement to go heal?


They're not, they shouldn't be. There's just way too many people who seem to think Cleric class symbol means "hjealbot".

[firemedium_jt]

I understand the rants on here about it. Experienced players want healers to do more especially low lvl pug content. And now anyone with a stone xp can be lvl 16, so level does not show xp anymore. Most on the forums know how to build, and build well. Most on the forums see a multi class toon and see experience and a toon well geared.

Those on this forum probably have a thick skin, and one of the good things about the internet is that it promotes that. So enjoy your rants about it, and even school those that need it in game. I do it. My divines and casters all self heal and melee at low lvl because they are built and geared better than most newbie melees. I did not have a clue about gear till lvl10+ and lots of reading on the forum. Heck I would not limit what I know to the forums.

[Karavek]

To those who have never felt the bondage that I speak of you must be new or only play with friends. Had you been here since launch, you would have experienced the darkest of days, and even now not unlike in RL where after civil rights many still suffer the injustice of prejudice so to do those who carry the power of positive energy within DDO.

Pure Fighters and Pure Barbs are gimp as can be, the cap stone a false goal to trick people into playing purist roles. In PnP 3E+ there are many pure classed caster NPCs depicted, but few who persue martial mastery stick to a single class, most build like a mid evil special forces operative using classes like fighter, ranger, rogue, barb, and even paladin to create a very well skilled and endowed with mystical protections non caster.

If anything blame DDO for the artifical 3 class limit that we do not suffer in PnP.

Remember Elminster is a by the book in 3E made fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard/archamge fully made within the rules of the edition. Now that we have him as an NPC within the game expect alot more PNP versed players to chafe under the 3 class limit.

[PNellesen]

I must be on the wrong server. REALLY! Because I am on Orien, and every week I am not in TR with buddies(I NEVER PUG TR), I get told to save my sp for healing. By multi-TRs. Almost inevitably by barbs or fighters. People who should recognize that those wings around my name mean I do have a clue how to manage my sp bar. I also get told to HJEAL frequently. Almost every time by barbs/fighters/monks, and always by those who have gotten themselves out of my range, and far away from the rest of the party.

I think we need a thread on how to get and keep decent divines willing to party with you more than once.

Maybe it's an Orien thing, because I've gotten that ore than once myself, though I have to admit it's kind of rare (I pug a lot on my clerics too). I do remember vividly one Elite VoD where I was told to heal the party and the leader would heal the tank, and I got grief because in between his heals, the tank took a nice crit heal from my aura and the leader screamed in voice chat "please just heal the party, I've got the tank!".

Sometimes you can't win no matter what you do - if you don't heal enough you're a useless battle cleric, and if you happen to use Radiant Servant to it's full potential you're wasting your "SP" when you shouldn't be :p

(I've got another level 22 Cleric/Fighter on Ghallanda, and I cannot once remember being told/asked to just stand back and hjeal or to watch his SP or anything like that, no matter what the content was.)

[Potta]

What server do you play on? What typical level range?


Khyber, all ranges. Mostly I stick at cap but I've TR'd 4 times in the past 6 months.



People should pick a build they will find fun. But many of them don't realize beforehand that standing around in the Marketplace with a "need hjealer" LFM up, instead of questing, for hours on end, isn't fun.


Or maybe they do and decide that they'd rather sacrifice the temporary pain of levelling a non self-sufficient character with a better DPS or tank for EE's and raids at cap. Maybe they'd rather not have to pay for +3/+5 LR's to get rid of Rogue levels they took for UMD after capping. Maybe they don't want to be a Half Elf, and you can't LR that away. Silver Flame pots exist, but that's a 400 favour grind, and first lifers are not going to have access to them until they're near cap anyway.



Something they can't...cast Implosion? If you mean healing, you talked about it yourself...they CAN. The community urging you to be able to self-heal isn't a great conspiracy to keep you down, it's playing smart!


Implosion is just another name for killing mobs. Anyone can do that. And it's not playing smart for everyone in a party to be healing themselves. A self sufficient party will do significantly less damage than a party of 5 maximised DPS characters with a healer supporting them. Because for characters without the Heal ability in their spellbook, self sufficiency means scrolls. So, a class split for UMD and UMD gear. Loss of capstone and some enhancements. Loss of gear that could improve DPS. A global cooldown on scroll swapping. Cast time on heal. No class skill for Concentration, and no points to spend on it most likely since you've spent them on UMD. Likely to be interupted unless you run away from combat first. More time wasted. The healing from the scroll is not going to be enough without more investment in healing amp and scroll enhancements. More DPS loss. And even when the healing is done, another global cooldown on switching back to your weapon. A DPS'er with a healer backing them would have killed the mob already.

Or maybe it means Silver Flame pots. So you run around with -5 ac. -5 reflex/fort/will, -50% movement speed, -5-10 skills -5 to hit and -5 damage per hit. I'm sure that won't hurt your DPS.

Or could it mean CSW potions? By the time you're done healing yourself to full with those, the rest of the party will be finishing the quest. Totally useless in combat past level 10, because you'll take more damage while drinking them than they do healing.

If 6 people all waste so much time and build potential on keeping themselves healed to the point that they're at only ~50% effectiveness on their damage, they're only worth 3 DPS'ers in total. A maximised DPS party has 5 DPS'ers and with a good healer capable of multi-tasking, often 5.5-6.



To those who have never felt the bondage that I speak of you must be new or only play with friends.


Wrong and wrong. If most parties complain at you for bad healing, it's likely not a community issue.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

How many times is this really an issue though?

In the absence of other factors, if a cleric sees a party member needing a heal, has a heal available, and decides not to use it, they probably are a bad cleric. But they are probably not that good a person either.
If any party member sees another party member in trouble, has a way to help available to them, and decides not to help out, then they are probably a bad whatever they are, whether it be cleric, wizard, fighter or barbarian.
And while those incidents you do remember, they really aren't that common.

Likewise, there are people who (unsolicited) start telling the cleric when and how they should be healing. Just like telling the wizard who they should be CCing, the fighter how to tank, and the barbarian who to trip and when they should be cleaving. Advice is one thing. Being told how to play is another.
Yes, they are being a jerk. But in my experience, its really not that common. It just really sticks in the mind when it does happen.

Well said.

[Potta]

Pure Fighters and Pure Barbs are gimp as can be

And here we have it. The OP returns and proves my first point in this thread. That Divines are more often the ones to dictate build choices to others.

"You shouldn't be pure fighter/barb, that's gimp!"

Well, considering that they're both viable builds for DPS/tanking, the only way they'd be considered "gimp" is in the inability to heal themselves. Which, with a good healer backing them up, is not an issue.

I think OP, that your issue is that you're a bad healer who blames deaths in his party on the fact that other people aren't doing your job for you.

[Enoach]

While I do not run into this as often as I did 6+ years ago. Occasionally during a TR I do run into one or two PuGs where the leader or even another party member goes on about how there are no/limited shrines in the quest and that "You cleric need to save your SP to heal the party", "Stay in the back" , etc.

Normally, I politely excuse myself letting the group know "Sorry I think your playstyle would be best served with a Hireling {add appropriate level hireling name here}, let me know when you want to cleric to join your group".

There are times when it is appropriate to spend more than 1/2 your resources on "reactive healing", however, most of the time it is better spent on "pro-active measures".

The best melee types know how to reduce incoming damage, by either; 1) Tripping/Stunning 2) Staying outside/behind their target 3) Use Line of Site to the Melee advantage 4) Use of a shield - Blocking, not just Damage Reduction, but also mitigates scorpion/spider stings etc.

However, I do agree that any party member that can "help" another out of a tough jam and doesn't is not worth the time to group with. Be it with a positive healing to help stabilize or bring out of incap, or use of Intimidate, bluff or direct attack to take the Aggro off someone so they have a chance to recover.

[seldarin]

Khyber, all ranges. Mostly I stick at cap but I've TR'd 4 times in the past 6 months.



Or maybe they do and decide that they'd rather sacrifice the temporary pain of levelling a non self-sufficient character with a better DPS or tank for EE's and raids at cap. Maybe they'd rather not have to pay for +3/+5 LR's to get rid of Rogue levels they took for UMD after capping. Maybe they don't want to be a Half Elf, and you can't LR that away. Silver Flame pots exist, but that's a 400 favour grind, and first lifers are not going to have access to them until they're near cap anyway.



Implosion is just another name for killing mobs. Anyone can do that. And it's not playing smart for everyone in a party to be healing themselves. A self sufficient party will do significantly less damage than a party of 5 maximised DPS characters with a healer supporting them. Because for characters without the Heal ability in their spellbook, self sufficiency means scrolls. So, a class split for UMD and UMD gear. Loss of capstone and some enhancements. Loss of gear that could improve DPS. A global cooldown on scroll swapping. Cast time on heal. No class skill for Concentration, and no points to spend on it most likely since you've spent them on UMD. Likely to be interupted unless you run away from combat first. More time wasted. The healing from the scroll is not going to be enough without more investment in healing amp and scroll enhancements. More DPS loss. And even when the healing is done, another global cooldown on switching back to your weapon. A DPS'er with a healer backing them would have killed the mob already.

Or maybe it means Silver Flame pots. So you run around with -5 ac. -5 reflex/fort/will, -50% movement speed, -5-10 skills -5 to hit and -5 damage per hit. I'm sure that won't hurt your DPS.

Or could it mean CSW potions? By the time you're done healing yourself to full with those, the rest of the party will be finishing the quest. Totally useless in combat past level 10, because you'll take more damage while drinking them than they do healing.

If 6 people all waste so much time and build potential on keeping themselves healed to the point that they're at only ~50% effectiveness on their damage, they're only worth 3 DPS'ers in total. A maximised DPS party has 5 DPS'ers and with a good healer capable of multi-tasking, often 5.5-6.



Wrong and wrong. If most parties complain at you for bad healing, it's likely not a community issue.

Potta, I also play on Khyber, have done for over 6 years. You say that you have never experienced what the OP is on about, or very seldom. I have played a lot of different chars to cap and with a lot of different people, both PUGs and guildies and I have seen/heard/experienced quite often what the OP is about. At one stage it reached a point where some individuals would request me to cure poison, cure disease, remove curse, blindness, etc, etc. Last time I checked all those things were available in a potion. As a cleric, I have limited SP, the SP I waste on things like rem curse etc, is SP that I dont have for healing, ergo, I dont cast rem curse and inform that it comes in a potion.

I make all my chars self sufficient and whilst I appreciate a heal during combat, I also appreciate what a healer goes through, having played them myself and I heal myself between fights, and I tell the healer to save their SP.

I have been accused at times when I am on my melee/rogue/whatever else and I heal myself between fights that I am not a team player because I am taking away the healers job. A cleric/fvs has far more available to them than just healing, quite an array of offensive casting that can mitigate damage and aid the party.

Anyone who thinks that a divines only job in a party is to heal them is nothing short of a moron.

You say you havent experienced this much, I say that you either A. Havent been playing very long, and/or B. Mostly stick with friends/guildies.

If you have played since game launch and grouped across the server you would see like others have, exactly what the OP is talking about.

[Mubjon]

I pug a lot, if it was truly as common as you suggest, I'd have seen it by now.

And I didn't say it does not happen. Just that I've never seen it. My theory is that if it never happens to some, and always happens to others, the problem isn't widespread. It's confined to those it's happening too. The immediate explanation for that is that you're somehow causing these complaints. I don't know how. Maybe their complaints are justified, maybe your attempt at DPS is counterproductive, or maybe what you say in conversation on voice or party chat is inciting them to not like you.

Or maybe I have a sixth sense that wards me away from grouping with morons. That seems less likely though.

lol

Or it might be that you are being a good little hireling :)

[Mubjon]

I must be on the wrong server. REALLY! Because I am on Orien, and every week I am not in TR with buddies(I NEVER PUG TR), I get told to save my sp for healing. By multi-TRs. Almost inevitably by barbs or fighters. People who should recognize that those wings around my name mean I do have a clue how to manage my sp bar. I also get told to HJEAL frequently. Almost every time by barbs/fighters/monks, and always by those who have gotten themselves out of my range, and far away from the rest of the party.

I think we need a thread on how to get and keep decent divines willing to party with you more than once.

This cannot be! For the word has been laid down and that is all that matters on the subject!

[bigolbear]

The wizard observed this incident through his crystal ball.

He looked mournfully at his his old costume the grunt brothers had made him wear, it was a jesters outfit with a dunce cap and sign to be hung round his neck that read 'punch here for buffs'.

Of course the wizard had made his escape a year or so back, after hearing stories of other wizards who had never bowed down, who refused to be the party jester. Hed even heard tales of groups of wizards gangin togeter to take on powerful enemies.

Hed decided to take the rouge with him, poor ol fingers had been kept in a special cage(this lock requires a key to open) and only brought out when there was a trap. he was made to wear a gimp suit with a label that read 'insert into trap for xp'.

They decided to go rescue the cleric...


In all seriousness - for a very long time the mele classes were dominant (a typical raid would not allow more than 2 aracens and 3 healzors - and 0 rogues) things have changed, and its not because those clases actualy got significantly better. They did get a little better - but for every buff there was a nerf!

What changed was peoples perception, people playing those support capable classes finaly snapped.(personaly i snapped on day 1..and never took that kind of abuse)

As others have said - not doing everythign you can to help other party memebers is a failure, my divines do heal and my arcanes do buff and my rogues do trapbusting. Being told thats all your allowed to do by a 0 defence 0 self sufficient idiot is frankly funny. I urge all poor needy mele players to quit moanin and man up - do some thing usefull for your party besides agroing every thing in the room and SLOWLY killing it. There are some great meles out there, guys that hack a room full of enemies to kibbles in seconds, that dont need a nanybot, and that give any arcane a run for his money in terms of kill counts.

[Karavek]

And here we have it. The OP returns and proves my first point in this thread. That Divines are more often the ones to dictate build choices to others.

"You shouldn't be pure fighter/barb, that's gimp!"

Well, considering that they're both viable builds for DPS/tanking, the only way they'd be considered "gimp" is in the inability to heal themselves. Which, with a good healer backing them up, is not an issue.

I think OP, that your issue is that you're a bad healer who blames deaths in his party on the fact that other people aren't doing your job for you.

I dont play a healer, I dont know any who do in fact, I play a cleric, I heal those who have proven their worth and only those as most clerics I know do, In pugs I lead I only state BYOHs, and no zerging. Guess which classes tend to join those and ignore those factors and still get verbally abusive to others? Hint they cant ever self heal.

There is no healer class, that is the first thing you need to learn before you can expect to be given any semblance of respect.

And no when there are many self sustaining and superior tank builds, then yes those trying to play pure fighters and barbs just because they can then say I cant self heal so you have to support me while I actually play the game are gimp as can be in an MMO where free form character building is even remotely possible. You are responsible for you and no one else in a group. Help an ally sure, support another player so they can have fun at the cost of my own? NEVER!

[Furare]

I don't expect fighters and barbs to be able to heal themselves fully - some can, and that's great, but I don't expect it - but if they have no healing potions at all on them, then I'm going to start to wonder why. I have seriously seen people like this. Cure Serious Wounds potions aren't sufficient to completely heal your 200+HP L8 fighter, obviously, but they will top you up in between fights, or keep you alive for long enough for me to get to you or finish saving someone else's backside. Oh, and I don't carry status removal spells for you, so you had better have those potions or you will be wandering round diseased, cursed or poisoned for the duration of the effect. (Anyone can buy and use these potions; it's not my responsibility.)

The second thing I expect from fighters and barbs is healing amp. At least a basic 20 or 30% is good enough, though more is obviously better. This doesn't apply at low levels, but once you hit the mid levels you should have some amp from somewhere. Enhancements, convalescent bracers, finger necklace, blood docent, whatever. Even the 10% ship buff helps.

Basically, bring potions, have healing amp, and don't complain about me swinging an axe in the melee, and we'll get along fine. Full self-sufficiency isn't required, but acting like you've actually considered that your "healer" is a person rather than a hireling is greatly appreciated.

[SirValentine]

maybe they do and decide that they'd rather sacrifice the temporary pain of levelling a non self-sufficient character with a better DPS or tank for EE's and raids at cap


Hey, sure, if someone wants to deliberately endure pain over the course of a variety of hundreds of quests, over 24 levels, in order to think they'll have some slight advantage "at cap" in, what, a couple dozen quests at one level, that's fine, but that doesn't mean they should abuse divine players who actually want to enjoy the game instead of babysitting their red bars.



Implosion is just another name for killing mobs. Anyone can do that.


You'd be suprised, maybe.

Anyway, I was trying to think of something that fit them "requiring you to do something they cannot" that you mentioned.

Healing is just another name for healing, pretty much anybody can do that, too. Healing is not a "they cannot", it's usually a "they deliberately choose not to". Let's see, 13 classes...

Cleric, Druid, Bard, Favored Soul, Ranger, Paladin, Artificer, Monk, are all classes with self-healing built in. Wizard, Sorceror, easy self-healing if they choose WF (or PM). Rogue, easy UMD self-healing. Fighter: tons of feats to spare versus every other class, so they could afford to pick up healing Dragonmarks if they cared. That's all in addition to what you already mentioned, Helf dilly, Silver Flame pots, etc..

Really, the ONLY class that has a hard time trying to self-heal is Barbarian. And even they can use cheap hirelings.

When folks of any class choose not to use the healing options available to them, it's pretty hypocritical for them to criticize divines for doing the same.



A self sufficient party will do significantly less damage than a party of 5 maximised DPS characters with a healer supporting them.


No, a party of independant characters will do vastly more damage by doing damage in up to 6 places at once, rather than having to stick close to their hjealbot.

I suppose it might seem faster if it were one of those "everybody must stick together!" groups I run into occasionally...but those groups aren't about speed anyway.

[SirValentine]

There is no healer class, that is the first thing you need to learn


Quoted for truth.

[Karavek]

Khyber, all ranges. Mostly I stick at cap but I've TR'd 4 times in the past 6 months.



Or maybe they do and decide that they'd rather sacrifice the temporary pain of levelling a non self-sufficient character with a better DPS or tank for EE's and raids at cap. Maybe they'd rather not have to pay for +3/+5 LR's to get rid of Rogue levels they took for UMD after capping. Maybe they don't want to be a Half Elf, and you can't LR that away. Silver Flame pots exist, but that's a 400 favour grind, and first lifers are not going to have access to them until they're near cap anyway.



Implosion is just another name for killing mobs. Anyone can do that. And it's not playing smart for everyone in a party to be healing themselves. A self sufficient party will do significantly less damage than a party of 5 maximised DPS characters with a healer supporting them. Because for characters without the Heal ability in their spellbook, self sufficiency means scrolls. So, a class split for UMD and UMD gear. Loss of capstone and some enhancements. Loss of gear that could improve DPS. A global cooldown on scroll swapping. Cast time on heal. No class skill for Concentration, and no points to spend on it most likely since you've spent them on UMD. Likely to be interupted unless you run away from combat first. More time wasted. The healing from the scroll is not going to be enough without more investment in healing amp and scroll enhancements. More DPS loss. And even when the healing is done, another global cooldown on switching back to your weapon. A DPS'er with a healer backing them would have killed the mob already.

Or maybe it means Silver Flame pots. So you run around with -5 ac. -5 reflex/fort/will, -50% movement speed, -5-10 skills -5 to hit and -5 damage per hit. I'm sure that won't hurt your DPS.

Or could it mean CSW potions? By the time you're done healing yourself to full with those, the rest of the party will be finishing the quest. Totally useless in combat past level 10, because you'll take more damage while drinking them than they do healing.

If 6 people all waste so much time and build potential on keeping themselves healed to the point that they're at only ~50% effectiveness on their damage, they're only worth 3 DPS'ers in total. A maximised DPS party has 5 DPS'ers and with a good healer capable of multi-tasking, often 5.5-6.



Wrong and wrong. If most parties complain at you for bad healing, it's likely not a community issue.
LOL bud if that is how you play your on the wrong game, the one your trying to play is called WoW.

The attempt to talk all this optimal DPS with one support playstyle infers is that I am right. Anyone who plays this game as a pure support role has little reason to remain and they rarely do.

EDs make end game builds so much more powerful now that splash classes are better then ever. Keep in mind the capstone enhancment is an artifical mechanic added to DDO due to QQ from the purist crowed who was trying to force classes into specific roles.

This is not WoW, your wowtard style of play has no place in DDO. No one plays DDO for other then its superior combat system. A healer cant enjoy that and infact often is pushed to the breaking point stress wise and quits the game in disgust because any part of the game like say raids in EE where baby sitters are once again becoming a need only drives those playing divine roles into guild/channel only groups where they can count on the emotional support needed to make the task even remotely tolerable.

You dont know stress until you lvl a divine in pugs where first time barbarian and fighters have 0 clue how to gear and demand healing so they can keep swinging away.

Fact is clerics are always in short supply, my OP was simply a mildly comedic attempt at pointing out the general feeling of how playing a cleric results in an extreme sense of bitterness and frustration.

Any content in the game and any difficulty setting in the game that forces another player to sacrifice their game time to not actually play but watch others play( I do define play as combat if your not in combat you are not playing but piking) is just bad content based on the WoW model which has grown obsolete.

DDOs strength is fast paced dynamic combat, but most want to play sit there and swing while a cleric heals. Every fight should be about all players constantly on the move doing their own thing and being far to busy to even notices anothers health bar which in fact should be completely hidden from other players as should their classes and buffs as that all breaks the mold of PnP that helped to keep players feeling a sense of equality rather then a competitive numbers game.

The more we know about each others characters the less fun we have together. The more we are forced to depend on others the less we play, the more we are told we are healers the less we heal. This is the nature of the vicious cycle Turbines flaws have brought about within our player community.

You want a heal to save your life when a bad roll happens cool, you want me to keep you healed constantly so you can play then ill just play the same way and tell you to heal me instead. Yeah I will on a cleric tell a barb to heal me so I can focus on DPS since I am rarely out equipped by them. Few vets make barb their main class and about the only close to pure fighters I see these days are arcane archer kensai.

Facts are in most MMO I played to even qualify as a tank you had to be totally self sufficient. THose few tank skill sets without significant self healing to back up damage reduction and defense values where well known to be the worst skill choices to take and few but the inexperianced new players would even bother with them. They didnt get removed nor buffed, simply left forgotton as all old abilities do in MMOs. Its always about the next new item and ability added.

And that is what we finally got with ED and twists of fate. In time I have no doubt we will see even more lvls, and EDs along with more twists of fate slots. Until one day the power difference between a lvl 19 without ed and a lvl 20 with ED will be as vast a rift as a lvl 1 newb on korthos compared to a beta vet in perfect epic gearing at cap.

[Khatzhas]

Potta, I also play on Khyber, have done for over 6 years. You say that you have never experienced what the OP is on about, or very seldom. I have played a lot of different chars to cap and with a lot of different people, both PUGs and guildies and I have seen/heard/experienced quite often what the OP is about. At one stage it reached a point where some individuals would request me to cure poison, cure disease, remove curse, blindness, etc, etc. Last time I checked all those things were available in a potion. As a cleric, I have limited SP, the SP I waste on things like rem curse etc, is SP that I dont have for healing, ergo, I dont cast rem curse and inform that it comes in a potion. Interesting. What do you in, for example, the Sands quests when someone in your group doesn't have a stack? Just try to heal through the Healing Curse?

Healing is not just keeping hit points in the positive. I don't see any problem with party members requesting removal of status effects. Of course I might say no, because it isn't necessary (Radiant bursts mean that poisons/diseases don't actually cause many problems), but if the rogue gets cursed if can bork up your chances of getting past the traps.
Unless I know I will need the SP or Turns I'd spend removing it, it beats just waiting around until the effect fades.


I make all my chars self sufficient and whilst I appreciate a heal during combat, I also appreciate what a healer goes through, having played them myself and I heal myself between fights, and I tell the healer to save their SP. How do you handle keeping yourself healed under heavy damage in-combat? If there are more tricks to it, I'm happy to learn.


You say you havent experienced this much, I say that you either A. Havent been playing very long, and/or B. Mostly stick with friends/guildies.

If you have played since game launch and grouped across the server you would see like others have, exactly what the OP is talking about. I've not been here since launch, so maybe that is it. I've been playing healers on Thelanis, Sarlona and Ghallanda , so it is possible that server attitudes are different. In the years that I have been playing, I've been almost exclusively pugging, but I have yet to be told that my only purpose is to make the melees look good.


This cannot be! For the word has been laid down and that is all that matters on the subject! By Whom?

[SirValentine]

They decided to go rescue the cleric...


Did you read the OP? The Cleric freed himself, he doesn't need their help! Though I'm sure he'd welcome some company on his future road.



In all seriousness - for a very long time the mele classes were dominant (a typical raid would not allow more than 2 aracens and 3 healzors - and 0 rogues)


Heck, 2 & 3 was generous...a limit of 1 and 2 was quite common that I saw back then. A Hjastebot and 2 Hjealbots.

[Potta]

At one stage it reached a point where some individuals would request me to cure poison, cure disease, remove curse, blindness, etc, etc.

How terrible that must have been for you. Truly the victim complex evident in this thread is justified if you occasionally get players with the GALL to ask for a cure poison.

Maybe they're new and weren't aware of the potions. Maybe they were in a rush before the quest started and didn't have time to pick them up, or maybe they didn't realize they'd run low, then ran out. This sort of thing is set straight by communication. If you have the spell but not the resources to spare, say so and explain why. If you do and you're withholding out of spite due to some imagined slight, that you're being put-upon, then you're not helping your group. I have trouble understanding the cost/benefit analysis that goes on in the minds of people that withhold spells like these. It's like they imagine they can do more DPS with those 20-30 spell points than another character is capable of doing for the next several minutes. In which case they're either deluded or ridiculously overpowered.

Is it annoying when people don't use/don't know about/forget their potions? Of course it is. Is it indicative of an attitude that says you're a "hjealbot" who shouldn't do anything other than follow and heal? Not in the slightest. Perhaps were you see conspiracy and mal-intent, I see ignorance and laziness.



Anyone who thinks that a divines only job in a party is to heal them is nothing short of a moron.


Not going to dispute that. What's in dispute is the frequency with which the morons who apparently do believe it present themselves. We have two widely disparate estimates of their frequency, to the point that statistically, there is likely no truth to be found in the middle ground. It's my belief that players of Divines frequently develop a god complex and it manifests itself in threads like this which espouse a barely concealed contempt of any character build that isn't capable of self-sufficiency. They're so used to getting praise for doing an easy job adequately that advice or criticism when they fail to perform is read as melee trying to dictate their playstyle.



You say you havent experienced this much, I say that you either A. Havent been playing very long, and/or B. Mostly stick with friends/guildies.


Wrong and wrong. As I have said before. In future, I would recommend that you avoid arguments wherein you attempt to teach me about myself.

[Karavek]

And here we have it. The OP returns and proves my first point in this thread. That Divines are more often the ones to dictate build choices to others.

"You shouldn't be pure fighter/barb, that's gimp!"

Well, considering that they're both viable builds for DPS/tanking, the only way they'd be considered "gimp" is in the inability to heal themselves. Which, with a good healer backing them up, is not an issue.

I think OP, that your issue is that you're a bad healer who blames deaths in his party on the fact that other people aren't doing your job for you.

next time you quote me try to use the whole sentence rather then edit it to suit your BS. What are you a tabloid hack reporter in RL?

[Saravis]

OP, you forgot "He cast their heathen souls into the raging infernos of hell."

[Khatzhas]

I dont play a healer, I dont know any who do in fact, I play a cleric, I heal those who have proven their worth and only those as most clerics I know do, In pugs I lead I only state BYOHs, and no zerging. It sounds like you tend to only group with experienced players or guildies. As someone who pugs a lot with new players, I'll heal everyone in the group until they prove that they are not worth it.
Refusing to heal another party member simply because you have never played with them before is not something that I've ever seen a healer do to be honest. What do you require people to do to prove their worth to you?


There is no healer class, that is the first thing you need to learn before you can expect to be given any semblance of respect.No. Healer is a role, just like Trapper, and several classes can perform it.
However, I can't help but think that when someone says "healer", the word that you hear is "healbot".
There is a huge gulf between the two meanings.


I don't expect fighters and barbs to be able to heal themselves fully - some can, and that's great, but I don't expect it - but if they have no healing potions at all on them, then I'm going to start to wonder why. I have seriously seen people like this. Cure Serious Wounds potions aren't sufficient to completely heal your 200+HP L8 fighter, obviously, but they will top you up in between fights, or keep you alive for long enough for me to get to you or finish saving someone else's backside. Oh, and I don't carry status removal spells for you, so you had better have those potions or you will be wandering round diseased, cursed or poisoned for the duration of the effect. (Anyone can buy and use these potions; it's not my responsibility.) I would imagine that after their first few deaths/incapacitations, the new players who didn't know about these, may no longer be able to afford them due to repair bills. :-)


Fighter: tons of feats to spare versus every other class, so they could afford to pick up healing Dragonmarks if they cared. That's all in addition to what you already mentioned, Helf dilly, Silver Flame pots, etc.. Dragon marks are racial-specific Only halflings are able to take the healing marks, and unless you are a caster who normally takes spell-boosting feats anyway, they are not that effective until later on. Helves are only available through Turbine points purchase generally.
As long as the group doesn't mind the side effects, Silver Flame potions work. But they are generally only available later on in the game unless you are a TR.


Really, the ONLY class that has a hard time trying to self-heal is Barbarian. And even they can use cheap hirelings. As far as I'm aware, a player who pulls out a hireling for their personal use without checking with the group is likely to be even more poorly regarded than one who asks for healing when they are low on health.


When folks of any class choose not to use the healing options available to them, it's pretty hypocritical for them to criticize divines for doing the same. Indeed. Hence why it is important to distinguish between "Divine", which generally means a class that has the potential to heal and "healer" which is a specific role in a group.
Assuming that a divine character will be a healer makes no more sense than assuming that a specialist class will be a trapper.


No, a party of independant characters will do vastly more damage by doing damage in up to 6 places at once, rather than having to stick close to their hjealbot. If they are overpowering the quest to that extent, they probably don't need a healer anyway.

[Potta]

next time you quote me try to use the whole sentence rather then edit it to suit your BS. What are you a tabloid hack reporter in RL?

You think the whole sentence provides a context that somehow makes your bias acceptable?


Pure Fighters and Pure Barbs are gimp as can be, the cap stone a false goal to trick people into playing purist roles.

Nope, sorry, doesn't help at all. It is still clearly evident of a bias you have against anyone who isn't self-sufficient. You by your own words, consider them gimps. This coming from the same person who claims to hate it when others tell him what to do, decides that he can tell melee how to build their characters instead. If these needy, dictating melee really did exist, all you've done is prove that you're just like them. Just as willing to dictate their builds and playstyle as they are to you.

If I'm a "tabloid hack", then I shudder to think what you are, with your ridiculously melodramatic over interpreted victim complex put to bad prose and absurd similarities drawn between your imagined slights and the Civil Rights movement. Get a grip.



LOL bud if that is how you play your on the wrong game, the one your trying to play is called WoW.


No, the game I play is a team-based MMO with multiple classes who offer different abilities that synergise well with each other. You seem to be playing a different type of game that more resembles a single player experience, but for some reason still sticks you with other people also playing a single player game. Sounds strange really. I know which I think sounds more fun, but I'll accept that's subjective. What's not subjective though is which has more resemblance to the PnP roots you keep referencing. I'll give you a hint. PnP isn't a single player game.

[Mubjon]

Interesting. What do you in, for example, the Sands quests when someone in your group doesn't have a stack? Just try to heal through the Healing Curse?

Let them die so the curse goes away. If they cannot prepare for the quest as I have had to do, then tough the best teaching environment is one where your mistake costs you.


Healing is not just keeping hit points in the positive. I don't see any problem with party members requesting removal of status effects. Of course I might say no, because it isn't necessary (Radiant bursts mean that poisons/diseases don't actually cause many problems), but if the rogue gets cursed if can bork up your chances of getting past the traps.
Unless I know I will need the SP or Turns I'd spend removing it, it beats just waiting around until the effect fades.

That is why pots are available in the vendors and for cheap! Buy 20 for each quest and you will more than likely have 18 left over. After a bit of time you will get a full stack of each, normally by level 7.


How do you handle keeping yourself healed under heavy damage in-combat? If there are more tricks to it, I'm happy to learn.

DR/PRR
AC
Blur
Haste



I've not been here since launch, so maybe that is it. I've been playing healers on Thelanis, Sarlona and Ghallanda , so it is possible that server attitudes are different. In the years that I have been playing, I've been almost exclusively pugging, but I have yet to be told that my only purpose is to make the melees look good.

No one said that it was your only purpose to make the melees look good, what was said is that there is a fair number that if you are not acting as a hire would complain and make the quest difficult for all those involved.

If you are not seeing this behavior, it is because you have failed to understand the true power of a divine and that power is not being a healbot or status remover.


By Whom?

I am sure it is not hard to read this thread and figure out who is saying that there is never melees demanding that a player cleric being told to be a good little hireling.

[Potta]

Let them die so the curse goes away. If they cannot prepare for the quest as I have had to do, then tough the best teaching environment is one where your mistake costs you.

Hurts you and the rest of your party too, since you lose 10% XP from Flawless Victory. It also costs SP to have them raised, or time to run them to a shrine. And if they're a rogue and traps are between you and the shrine, you're even worse off. You're also mistaken about the best teaching environment, or our school systems would still be implementing corporal punishment. It was determined years ago that positive reinforcement is superior to punishment when you do something wrong. You think you'll convince a player to take advice from someone who deliberately lets them die and seems to go out of their way to be condescending? If anything, they'll chalk the experience up to thinking you're just a prat. If "teaching" was truly your objective, it'd be better served by being friendly, offering advice and helping your party out. People are far more likely to imitate things they like, and if they like you, they'll be more likely to imitate and become more self-sufficient.

Of course, that is if teaching was actually your goal. It sounds to me like being petty and spiteful is more likely. In which case, you're doing a great job already.



DR/PRR
AC
Blur
Haste


That doesn't answer his question. He asked how you healed from heavy damage in combat, not how you prevented damage. Your non-answer doesn't even have the distinction of being complete either, since it completely ignores spell damage.




No one said that it was your only purpose to make the melees look good, what was said is that there is a fair number that if you are not acting as a hire would complain and make the quest difficult for all those involved.


No, sorry, that is exactly what is being claimed in this thread. Unless you're being facetious and claiming a re-statement of the argument in different terms is not what was said. This thread isn't just complaints about people not acting like a "good little hireling", it's also laced with complaints from people who claim that melee are telling them to stay back and not waste spell points on non-healing spells. It is entirely fair for the person you quote to restate this as their only purpose being to "make the melees look good", and disingenuous for you to claim otherwise. Furthermore, you seem to have no problem making the quest more difficult for all those involved when you refuse out of spite disguised as "learning experiences" to heal/cure members of your party leading to their deaths.

[Furare]

I would imagine that after their first few deaths/incapacitations, the new players who didn't know about these, may no longer be able to afford them due to repair bills. :-)

People always trot out the "new player" thing, but that's kinda disingenuous, really. I do explain things to people who are new. There are also people who aren't new who have these expectations, people who should know better. By the time you are running L12 content you should have enough money for those pots. They don't cost that much!

[Mubjon]

Hurts you and the rest of your party too, since you lose 10% XP from Flawless Victory. It also costs SP to have them raised, or time to run them to a shrine. And if they're a rogue and traps are between you and the shrine, you're even worse off. You're also mistaken about the best teaching environment, or our school systems would still be implementing corporal punishment. It was determined years ago that positive reinforcement is superior to punishment when you do something wrong. You think you'll convince a player to take advice from someone who deliberately lets them die and seems to go out of their way to be condescending? If anything, they'll chalk the experience up to thinking you're just a prat. If "teaching" was truly your objective, it'd be better served by being friendly, offering advice and helping your party out. People are far more likely to imitate things they like, and if they like you, they'll be more likely to imitate and become more self-sufficient.

And the failure to properly spank children is what is causing the problems in today's society.

I have no problem helping people that wish to learn learn, I do have a problem when the comment out of their mouth after walking into a trap while the rogue is searching for the box is why did you not heal me! you suck.

Or if after they are killed because they have no AC, no means to mitigate damage, and use weapons or abilities that cause them to take dmg. And using a scroll to raise them, they do not wait to be healed to full and run off to die in a single hit and then complain. Well I have no use for them.

Or if they complain that "the cleric is in melee! Stay back" while running an aura that is mitigating damage and bursts between influxes of spike damage. That tends to make me sit back and laugh as they die.


Of course, that is if teaching was actually your goal. It sounds to me like being petty and spiteful is more likely. In which case, you're doing a great job already.


The only goal I see from you is to be a troll and claim that others are the reason that melees are behaving as if they are the masters and the Divines are their hirelings and slaves.



That doesn't answer his question. He asked how you healed from heavy damage in combat, not how you prevented damage. Your non-answer doesn't even have the distinction of being complete either, since it completely ignores spell damage.


Sure it does, because as a Divine and caster I take out the casters before they can even cast a spell in most cases, unless of course the idiotic melee ran half way across the map and ran up the Dungeon alert to red before dying.




No, sorry, that is exactly what is being claimed in this thread. Unless you're being facetious and claiming a re-statement of the argument in different terms is not what was said. This thread isn't just complaints about people not acting like a "good little hireling", it's also laced with complaints from people who claim that melee are telling them to stay back and not waste spell points on non-healing spells. It is entirely fair for the person you quote to restate this as their only purpose being to "make the melees look good", and disingenuous for you to claim otherwise. Furthermore, you seem to have no problem making the quest more difficult for all those involved when you refuse out of spite disguised as "learning experiences" to heal/cure members of your party leading to their deaths.

No the thread is about the behavior of a segment of the melee population that look at a Cleric as nothing but a hjealer. It is you that is claiming that it does not happen, when there are more people in this thread saying they have experienced it first hand.

They are making the quest more difficult by not being up to the task and causing the dungeon to scale to a point that they cannot make it through without a wheelchair.

[Khatzhas]

People always trot out the "new player" thing, but that's kinda disingenuous, really. I do explain things to people who are new. There are also people who aren't new who have these expectations, people who should know better. By the time you are running L12 content you should have enough money for those pots. They don't cost that much! As I have said: I run with a lot of new players. Its cool that you are willing to explain and help them out if they don't actually know what they need to. It just wasn't the impression that your earlier statement gave.
If someone has the wings by their name, or definitely knows the ropes, I'll assume they do have an idea of what is required. But in the Sands example, a lot of people in first life can hit there before they ever run into a mummy, and how to remove the curse. They also don't always have the same priorities and even if they do know that they need Remove Curse and Remove Disease potions for there, they may not realise quite how much of their potential funds they need to spend on them.
The smilie was there to indicate that that point wasn't entirely serious. Just one of the drawbacks of text conversations.

[Karavek]

You think the whole sentence provides a context that somehow makes your bias acceptable?



Nope, sorry, doesn't help at all. It is still clearly evident of a bias you have against anyone who isn't self-sufficient. You by your own words, consider them gimps. This coming from the same person who claims to hate it when others tell him what to do, decides that he can tell melee how to build their characters instead. If these needy, dictating melee really did exist, all you've done is prove that you're just like them. Just as willing to dictate their builds and playstyle as they are to you.

If I'm a "tabloid hack", then I shudder to think what you are, with your ridiculously melodramatic over interpreted victim complex put to bad prose and absurd similarities drawn between your imagined slights and the Civil Rights movement. Get a grip.



No, the game I play is a team-based MMO with multiple classes who offer different abilities that synergise well with each other. You seem to be playing a different type of game that more resembles a single player experience, but for some reason still sticks you with other people also playing a single player game. Sounds strange really. I know which I think sounds more fun, but I'll accept that's subjective. What's not subjective though is which has more resemblance to the PnP roots you keep referencing. I'll give you a hint. PnP isn't a single player game.

actually man one on one pre made modules have been published over the years, hell a few interesting attempts at DMless modules have even been made using things like DVDs and choose your own adventure type systems to let anyone who enjoys rolling the dice have the means to even when a group is in short supply.

And good DMs who use story and well thought out encounters rarely leave a group together to face a big bad guy, most are one on one fights designed to give a player a chance to shine in the sun alone as a hero. Sometimes it may take several sessions for each to have that moment, but rarely does any one session go by where each felt like they where the reason the group survived.

No matter what lies you wish to speak playing the game will always show the truth. I could log onto a brand new cleric right this minute and find a guy on his 2nd or later life playing a barb who would treat me like a nannybot who lives to serve. Anytime day or night i can find one. Finding people who make warriors capable of survival is a much more arduous task.

But feel free to post all your characters and see how friendly people playing clerics are to you in the future. Since most who are part of the divine order seek to support each other we rarely aid those who turn their backs on us and seek to enslave us.

Clerics walk hand in hand with the gawds, and thus have no equals. Seriously next you will try and say Judas could walk on the water right behind JC.

Play a cleric and be one of the brotherhood or be among our enemies who through ignorance can sometimes be forgiven but knowingly trying to force us to play nanny will only have you find a zealot.

This may surprise you but many who play clerics enjoy at least the soft RP of being such a divinely touched person.

On a parting note, conan was probably not even a barbarian by DDO standards but more likely a ranger/fighter/rogue as he was quite skilled in stealth, thievery, seduction, woodcraft, and was considered an expert hunter with spear,sling, and traps. He also never lost his cool and always was tactical in his fighting even when alone against many in a savage frenzy he would use position and cover to reduce or outright negate the superior numbers pressing him. He also wasnt chaotic but actually very lawful but built around what one would call the babaric code of chivlary which REH did wright down and one can look up to see what he was thinking when he conceived of conan and how he lived his life. The man who ruled the greatest city in the world was not a man who lacked an understanding of law and order.

[Potta]

Wha...? Brotherhood? Divine Order? Enslavement? Hand in hand..., no equals?

Actually, nevermind. I didn't realize you were mentally unbalanced. I have a rule about debating crazy: don't do it. /ignored.

[Khatzhas]

DR/PRR
AC
Blur
Haste And I thought my artificer has a lot of clickies. I'm assuming that guild ship buffs also play a large part in that as well?
How do you actually deal with healing though? Or do you simply not do content where your damage intake in a fight is likely to be much higher than your health?


No one said that it was your only purpose to make the melees look good, what was said is that there is a fair number that if you are not acting as a hire would complain and make the quest difficult for all those involved.

If you are not seeing this behavior, it is because you have failed to understand the true power of a divine and that power is not being a healbot or status remover.
OK. I'll bite. I have never been told that I'm only there to heal the melee. What is it about the true power of a divine that I have failed to understand?
Because I know I'm not just a healbot. When I'm healing and have the power to spare, I'll be telling melee mobs to siddown and shuddap, dropping flaming rocks on casters, and punishing their leaders with divine radiance. Or I may simply be beating on them with the power of my faith infusing me and a big stick. Either way, I'll likely be right next to the melee, sustaining them with the positive energy that flows through me.
My point is that in most cases, I can do this as well as keeping everyone alive and functioning. That is the difference between a healer and a healbot.
So. What am I missing?


I am sure it is not hard to read this thread and figure out who is saying that there is never melees demanding that a player cleric being told to be a good little hireling. Who?
No. I am serious. As far as I can tell, no-one in this thread is claiming that. We may be saying that it hasn't happened to us yet, but I don't think that anyone has made the claim that it has never happened at all.
So I would like you to back up this claim that you are making.
Who is saying that please?


The only goal I see from you is to be a troll and claim that others are the reason that melees are behaving as if they are the masters and the Divines are their hirelings and slaves. I believe that what is in contention is whether most melees actually do behave that way.


Sure it does, because as a Divine and caster I take out the casters before they can even cast a spell in most cases, unless of course the idiotic melee ran half way across the map and ran up the Dungeon alert to red before dying. You are the melee. We're not talking about your divine here, we're talking about your self-sufficient characters who aren't divines.


They are making the quest more difficult by not being up to the task and causing the dungeon to scale to a point that they cannot make it through without a wheelchair. The power differential between classes is a whole other can of worms that its probably best not to open up. It may be be a factor in causing resentment or whatever, but its not directly connected to the issue here.

[Karavek]

Wha...? Brotherhood? Divine Order? Enslavement? Hand in hand..., no equals?

Actually, nevermind. I didn't realize you were mentally unbalanced. I have a rule about debating crazy: don't do it. /ignored.

Lol ignore it all you wish but it wont change the facts. You see it anytime you play. If your even a splash cleric or fvs and post a byoh you often fill up nearly immediatly with fellow divine players, The groups never suffer,slow down, nor wipe because its like trying to fight a team of X men entirely composed of wolverine's. And if you had been around the forums long enough youd probably understand the brotherhood thing as since the first year when divine players started fighting against the bonds, they started feeling very fraternal to each other. We tend to see ourselves as one giant family and look at those new players being good little healbots like special needs cousins we need to protect from the abusive bullies who would treat them like less them human.

Some of the best number cruncher achievement players over the years have proven that at least up until the latest major game changes any so called end game content in the game and any raid at max dif could have its healing needs easily managed by 2 competently played clerics with 12 lvls in their builds and the rest could be entirely combat focussed and they provided the rest of the team is actually competently played then there is very little real risk of failure.

Now granted with power gamers, min max builds, and so much more even those extreme challenges where often looked at as trivial to such highly skilled players to the point the games over all balance spectrum is now out of whack.

One topic always spills over into another just like the old code of DDO that causes endless buggery. But in the end free form build style is not a license to make a build that lacks any feature, DDO has evolved into a game where constant healing is a must, expecting it to come from any source but yourself is selfish play pure and simple.

Being a pure fighter or pure barb gives little, but even so if you must play one the only 2 races to choose from are halfling and helf. Halfling rogue/fighter/barb builds with the dragonmark line rarely are seen as the mana sponges horc,dwarf,and WF ones seem to be, and yes fleshy wizards are generally seen as a waste now days to the point virtually all AM I encounter are warforged. PM naturally transcend the racial limitation and self heal and are thus loved especially in groups lacking a good healer as many PM are more then capable of tanking anything short of a pack of priest spamming light spells.

Indeed we all have choices, many not really practical nor viable, lacking self healing tends to be a poor choice to have made imo when many options exist.

As I have said I will heal those worth healing, otherwise my mana is for my own survival because if I fall then the group almost surely will if its a pug of unknowns. Show me a barb who self destructs in kamikaze mode to do his top DPS and need a nanny and Ill show you a dozen rogues who can do better DPS and fall back and heal up asap or take turns watching each others backs so no one gets stuck doing the dull task of healing full time.

And sorry if you cant handle a person speaking with passion and actual familiarity on a subject your clearly to new to really have any insight into understanding.

Suffice it to say even a recent friend I got to convert to DDO from WoW left within a month of playing his first cleric here after trying a few pugs and being disgusted by the general view of a cleric as a healer.

Clerics are not healers, healers are not clerics. Clerics who master positive energy do not see themselves as healers, but walking anti undead WMDs

[the613]

I'm just going to put in my experience here, I am not debating the experiences of the others in this thread.

I pretty much exclusively play on thelanis, and from my experience, as a 28 point light monk and his next life a 34 point 18/2 wiz monk, and his current life, an 36 point light monk, and a 32 point helf cleric who I got to about level 14, I have seen pretty much none of this. Granted, I refuse to play a toon that does not have some form of self healing without using pots, but I tend to find the players I have played with are respectful, and understanding of each other. It may be I am just playing with the people who are nice, or that thelanis is just nice in general, I don't know. I do however know that until I bought half elf, I refused to play a cleric, as almost everyone I had talked to had said something along the lines of what the OP is saying. Even when I did get helf, my eventually 20 helf cleric with fighter dilly has in her bio "I'm not a battlecleric, I'm a healer with an attitude!" I put that their to hopefully avoid the battle cleric stigma I had been told about. My personal opinion on this is it is either all the bad players are on certain servers, they are relatively small in amount, or because this idea is spread around so much, it is already viewed as true by players, and as such tilts their view towards the "melee unfairness view". I do not claim any of these is the truth, they are just my opinions, and I admit that I could be totally wrong.

[Potta]

I'm just going to put in my experience here, I am not debating the experiences of the others in this thread.

Doesn't matter. The bandwagon will be here shortly to declare your experience as inadequate because it doesn't fit in with the victim complex narrative they have going on. You'll be summarily ignored as irrelevant because someone who doesn't know you at all will randomly pick a number from a bag that corresponds with one of the below options:

1.) You don't pug enough
2.) You haven't been playing long enough
3.) You're not on their server
4.) You're not a founder
5.) You're a "good little hireling"
6.) You haven't "discovered the true power of the divine"
7.) You're in league with the evil melee conspiracy to keep divines down.

It would quite honestly be comical if I could only forget that there are actual humans on the other side of these ridiculous arguments, believing and saying such ridiculous things. It's somehow supposed to be believable that this so called by the OP, "backlash" against Divines is so widespread, so common. One poster commented that it happens to him at least once per week when he pugs. Yet players who also pug frequently for years and don't see it are told they haven't been playing for long enough yet to have noticed it. It's one or the other. If it's so rare that players have have pugged for years haven't seen it yet, then it's not something you start a melodramatic thread over and compare - quite sincerely - to the Civil Rights movement. If it's that rare, it's not even something you can generalize as happening from a particular section of the community, like melee. Generalities like that are, after all, derived from many data points that converge in some respect. Not the sort of thing you can conclude from something so vanishingly rare.

On the other hand, it could be as common as they claim. But if it is, they'll have to explain why many of us have never noticed anyone in several years of play disrespecting their healer anything like the examples in this thread. They lack an argument for this. I have my own theory that bad players will rationalize their poor play and the reaction it gets from others by blaming the criticism they receive as coming from the myths they read on the forums about entitled melee who want them to be a "good little hireling". Who then participate in threads like this generating the next cycle of the myth perpetuating circlejerk.

It's not a perfect theory, but it's a lot better than anything they've come up with.

[Mubjon]

And I thought my artificer has a lot of clickies. I'm assuming that guild ship buffs also play a large part in that as well?
How do you actually deal with healing though? Or do you simply not do content where your damage intake in a fight is likely to be much higher than your health?

Most of what I posted is from Armor and pots that do not require any clicky. Heck my characters, all of them, have enough UMD or are Helf with dilly that can either cast from scroll the buffs I need or heal my character.



OK. I'll bite. I have never been told that I'm only there to heal the melee. What is it about the true power of a divine that I have failed to understand?
Because I know I'm not just a healbot. When I'm healing and have the power to spare, I'll be telling melee mobs to siddown and shuddap, dropping flaming rocks on casters, and punishing their leaders with divine radiance. Or I may simply be beating on them with the power of my faith infusing me and a big stick. Either way, I'll likely be right next to the melee, sustaining them with the positive energy that flows through me.
My point is that in most cases, I can do this as well as keeping everyone alive and functioning. That is the difference between a healer and a healbot.
So. What am I missing?

Then, you are lucky that at the times you are playing you are not running into these people. I also did say that I run into it about once a week, which in the scheme of things is probably around 1% of the time I play. Figuring I play on average 30 hours a week. And one quest during that time will have me run into someone like this. I also play over 2 servers with two different guilds.


Who?
No. I am serious. As far as I can tell, no-one in this thread is claiming that. We may be saying that it hasn't happened to us yet, but I don't think that anyone has made the claim that it has never happened at all.
So I would like you to back up this claim that you are making.
Who is saying that please?

What? Have you not read what potta said? Basically he stated that it is the cleric's fault for the abuse they are getting. Because they are not being good little hirelings.


I believe that what is in contention is whether most melees actually do behave that way.

No one said most behave that way, what was said is that we have a small segment of the population that behaves this way and it is causing clerics to not want to pug.


You are the melee. We're not talking about your divine here, we're talking about your self-sufficient characters who aren't divines.


All of my characters are self-sufficient, I do not build my character to rely on the help from another.


The power differential between classes is a whole other can of worms that its probably best not to open up. It may be be a factor in causing resentment or whatever, but its not directly connected to the issue here.

It sure is connected here. It is not so much the power differential between the classes it is the fact that certain people believe that a person is worth nothing more than being a better hireling.

[Mubjon]

I'm just going to put in my experience here, I am not debating the experiences of the others in this thread.

I pretty much exclusively play on thelanis, and from my experience, as a 28 point light monk and his next life a 34 point 18/2 wiz monk, and his current life, an 36 point light monk, and a 32 point helf cleric who I got to about level 14, I have seen pretty much none of this. Granted, I refuse to play a toon that does not have some form of self healing without using pots, but I tend to find the players I have played with are respectful, and understanding of each other. It may be I am just playing with the people who are nice, or that thelanis is just nice in general, I don't know. I do however know that until I bought half elf, I refused to play a cleric, as almost everyone I had talked to had said something along the lines of what the OP is saying. Even when I did get helf, my eventually 20 helf cleric with fighter dilly has in her bio "I'm not a battlecleric, I'm a healer with an attitude!" I put that their to hopefully avoid the battle cleric stigma I had been told about. My personal opinion on this is it is either all the bad players are on certain servers, they are relatively small in amount, or because this idea is spread around so much, it is already viewed as true by players, and as such tilts their view towards the "melee unfairness view". I do not claim any of these is the truth, they are just my opinions, and I admit that I could be totally wrong.

Wait, so you have a grand total of two characters, both of which have not reached cap and you have a start date of 2009?

How long do you actually play in the month? 5 hours? I ask because this could be the reason you have not seen it yet.

Heck I just ran into someone like this last night in a group that was supposedly byoh. The stupid barb just assumed that I was going to stand back and heal and do nothing else. I keep the aura up and burst when needed, but the SP I have is for me and emergencies like server lag. I pointed him to my bio and said as soon as I get my babysitting payment I will be happy to oblige.

The point is not that a cleric should not heal while in a party, the point is at what time does the melee or arcane need to start taking responsibility for their character? I have a certain amount of slots for spells, I am not going to crowd them with every single status cure when those status cures can be bought in pot form. For example I am not going to load up greater restoration to take care of level drain, when a burst that regenerates over time can do the same thing in 1 to 2 bursts and I have it replenished in 2 to 4 minutes. I am not going to load up remove curse when the pot costs less than 5 plat.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Doesn't matter. The bandwagon will be here shortly to declare your experience as inadequate because it doesn't fit in with the victim complex narrative they have going on. You'll be summarily ignored as irrelevant because someone who doesn't know you at all will randomly pick a number from a bag that corresponds with one of the below options:

1.) You don't pug enough
2.) You haven't been playing long enough
3.) You're not on their server
4.) You're not a founder
5.) You're a "good little hireling"
6.) You haven't "discovered the true power of the divine"
7.) You're in league with the evil melee conspiracy to keep divines down.

It would quite honestly be comical if I could only forget that there are actual humans on the other side of these ridiculous arguments, believing and saying such ridiculous things. It's somehow supposed to be believable that this so called by the OP, "backlash" against Divines is so widespread, so common. One poster commented that it happens to him at least once per week when he pugs. Yet players who also pug frequently for years and don't see it are told they haven't been playing for long enough yet to have noticed it. It's one or the other. If it's so rare that players have have pugged for years haven't seen it yet, then it's not something you start a melodramatic thread over and compare - quite sincerely - to the Civil Rights movement. If it's that rare, it's not even something you can generalize as happening from a particular section of the community, like melee. Generalities like that are, after all, derived from many data points that converge in some respect. Not the sort of thing you can conclude from something so vanishingly rare.

On the other hand, it could be as common as they claim. But if it is, they'll have to explain why many of us have never noticed anyone in several years of play disrespecting their healer anything like the examples in this thread. They lack an argument for this. I have my own theory that bad players will rationalize their poor play and the reaction it gets from others by blaming the criticism they receive as coming from the myths they read on the forums about entitled melee who want them to be a "good little hireling". Who then participate in threads like this generating the next cycle of the myth perpetuating circlejerk.

It's not a perfect theory, but it's a lot better than anything they've come up with.

Join a pug for harbour quests with a bunch of first lifers, it's like trying to herd cats. They could be down to 2hp and they'll still run off openeing doors and carrying on as if they were invincible, when they die they stand on their stone and go afk.

By mid level it's less common, and you have more than one cure to throw, so when you get the -out of range, out of range, blocked, casting* but blocked anyway and now its on cooldown - moments, you can still top them off.
But you get the folks that have learned about hirelings and expect an on demand heal right on their backside no matter which direction they run, the problem arises when you have 2 or more of these in 1 group. Doesnt matter how good of a healer you think you are, you can't be in 2 places at once, you can ask them to stick together, but it doesnt always work, many of then haven't learned about headphones yet.

Toward end game it's much less common, but it still happens in quests where the party has to split up or can easily be split up. Like when doing ghosts of perdition, the party splits in 2 to kill the 2 brothers (this actually happened to me) the leader asked me (a fvs) to kill the second brother and he (a paladin) would kill the first, the ranger decided that would be a good time to pull agro on the first brother, run around a bit and die while yelling into the mic 'where are the heals, I'm using a triple positive bow, do you think I'm playing around here?' Kill the 2 brothers, run back up the ramp to throw him a raise, he is afk, try again while running back down he takes it. I heal him to full, he hits sprint boost and runs down the hall to where you meet the doomsphere, and I'm thinking to myself, you better have a firewall waiting at the bottom, of course he didn't and died again, and again 'where's the heals?' My fault, bad healer.

Or in coal chamber, when we get to the first shaft, and the no heal amp wf barb falls off when we are half way up, says nothing, decides that would be a good time to backtrack and clear the rooms we skipped, runs through a trap agros a bunch of mobs... in his defence he actually did start to drink pots at this point. And the sorc says 'hey healer, how about healing the barb'. To which I say, 'do you know where he is'? I check the map, drop down run all the way all way back and ding, too late. My fault, bad healer.

It's much less common end game, but it has happened to me where I joined a pug for epic the black loch, this one is short, the wf wizard steps in before anyone else, buffs, summons an earth elemental and goes afk to get a drink, the earth elly agros the mobs in the first room and they quickly finish off the caster. He gets on the mic and says 'why didn't you heal me?', the cleric wasn't even in the dungeon yet. This one wasn't my fault, I was a fighter at the time.

[Rawrargh]

I'm still going to say:

A cleric that refuse (note the word refuse) is nothing short of either a petty idiot with a napoleon complex or a full-blown ******.

Refusing to use abilities granted by the ONLY prestige and refusing to use spells granted AUTOMATICALLY is nothing short of bad players being bad players.

It's the same as a rogue refusing to do traps: "Hey! I'm not your trap slave!"

Same as a wizard refusing to cast spells: "Hey! I'm not your spell-monkey!"

It's the same as a barbarian refusing to rage: "Hey! I'm not your... never mind... I'll just oppress the cleric instead"

The OP is making me sick, giving a bad name to all divines with his butthurt superiority complex. I know what a divine is capable of, both melee divines and caster divines - Yes I've played 2 lives as a "battle cleric" and a life as a fvs and never have I seen that attitude the OP is refering to. It's probably got to do with me actually contributing to the group by healing AND doing other stuff instead of being a self-intitled little **** too busy sniffing my own farts to even notice that I'm not alone in the group.

P.S. I've got a terrible feeling that we're being trolled and I just rolled a 1 on my detect motive... I have a hard time believing that anyone would actually believe that halflings make the best fighters/barbs...

P.P.S. Incoming negrep for speaking my mind... **** opressive divines.

[Potta]

Wait, so you have a grand total of two characters, both of which have not reached cap and you have a start date of 2009?

How long do you actually play in the month? 5 hours? I ask because this could be the reason you have not seen it yet.

Thanks for proving me right. I said you'd be here and make some ridiculous assertion that devalued his experience, and here you are. I hadn't imagined that you'd do it so quickly, or in a post filled such such a degree of cognitive dissonance though. In case you still can't see the absurdity of your position, I'll make it clear to you:

You're complaining that his start date is 2009. You realize that's 3 years ago, right? You mock his lack of characters, but neglect to mention the fact that one of them is a multi-TR, so he has leveled several times, not just twice. You seem to think that 3 years is not enough time to have noticed this behavior, but in this very post, you go on to say:



Heck I just ran into someone like this last night in a group that was supposedly byoh. The stupid barb just assumed that I was going to stand back and heal and do nothing else.


So incredibly rare that you berate someone who has "only" been playing for 3 years about the ability to understand the issue, but by sheer, miraculous coincidence it happened to you just last night? Amazing.

In the post immediately before this one, you also say:



I also did say that I run into it about once a week


So his three years aren't enough to see it, but you manage to once a week?

You bring up some numbers in what I can only assume is some attempt to cloud the issue to create some illusion of legitimacy, but even those are so utterly moronic to the point that even reading them gives me a headache. Lets bear with the pain and go through them too:



I run into it about once a week, which in the scheme of things is probably around 1% of the time I play. Figuring I play on average 30 hours a week.


So here you've said that around once every 30 hours you'll experience this issue. That's pretty common. But...didn't you just discredit the613 because he'd only been playing for 3 years and therefore wasn't experienced enough to comment? Do you imagine that the613 has played less than 30 hours of DDO in the 3 years he has had an account? Do you know how much time he'd have to spend per day to amass 30 hours of gameplay in 3 years? About 1.5 minutes per day. You question him on how much time he plays per month, ballparking a figure of 5 hours in the presumption that this would be low enough to never have this issue. Of course, using your figures and life of his account, he'd have probably experienced this issue once over the course of those 3 years with only 45 minutes of playtime per month.



What? Have you not read what potta said? Basically he stated that it is the cleric's fault for the abuse they are getting.


This is a misrepresentation of what I said. A party member abusing another isn't acceptable. My point was that players who are bad at healing when faced with criticism seem to take it as evidence that the myth is true instead of evidence that they're bad players.

And yes, I think you're a bad player if you want to charge your party members for heals even in a BYOH group. How prima donna can you get. Do you pay the arcane for his buffs? The Bard for his songs? The Rogue for getting the traps that may have killed you, or the trap XP bonus they give? What about the DPS who may outkill you, do you have a set rate per killcount whereby you pay them for each extra mob that they contributed over you? Do you pay for CC, or for the leader organizing the party in the first place? Do you pay an Evasion character for doing the Swim in Crucible, or the Monk per stun?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but even in my BYOH pugs I expect a certain level of teamwork that I see is lacking in you. I'd expect people to help eachother out where possible because helping their group helps themselves. It appears all you want to do is help yourself to the contents of your party members wallets, issuing every heal with a invoice attached.

[Rawrargh]

and yes, i think you're a bad player if you want to charge your party members for heals even in a byoh group. How prima donna can you get. Do you pay the arcane for his buffs? The bard for his songs? The rogue for getting the traps that may have killed you, or the trap xp bonus they give? What about the dps who may outkill you, do you have a set rate per killcount whereby you pay them for each extra mob that they contributed over you? Do you pay for cc, or for the leader organizing the party in the first place? Do you pay an evasion character for doing the swim in crucible, or the monk per stun?

qft

[Potta]

Do you pay the tanks in raids, or the kiters in ToD? The puzzle solvers? The ones giving directions in Shadow Crypt? The Hand tank or the Ana escort in CitW? The Bard for his Fascinates in EE VoN6? Do you pay the rat controller in Tomb of the Tormented, or Coyle's bodyguard? Do you pay the healers that actually heal so you don't have to? Do you pay per disco-ball or web for CC? Do you pay the rogue to unlock bonus chests? Do you pay per ship invite? Do you pay per asteroid thrown, gauntlet passed or ice island provided in Abbot?

I know I'm going on more than I should, but this attitude is despicable to me. If you get abuse from your party, I am frankly not surprised, because your attitude stinks.

[Potta]

Stop the presses! I thought I was done but I just happened to notice this:



Posted by Mubjon:
Wait, so you have a grand total of two characters, both of which have not reached cap and you have a start date of 2009?




Mubjon
Community Member

Join Date: Sep 2010


Seriously? Time to GTFO Mubjon, anyone with a brain still reading at this point simply could not have any respect left for you. It's inconceivable.

[the613]

Ok, mubjon, I am going to point out something to you about what you posted about me. You said I had not capped a character, yet I deliberately stated that my level 7 monk (I actually leveled it to 8 earlier) is 36 point buy, only achievable by someone who has tred twice (I am on my third life now with him, so exactly 2 trs for me) or more, so not only did I cap him once, I capped him again, with a higher xp per level. It seems you attempted to force your view on me by misrepresenting the data I gave. On top of that, I had specifically said that it was a possibility that it was going on, and I was fine saying you guys are right when it has been proven to me, either through my experiences, or hard evidence (which is not brought in any of your arguments btw). Also, I mentioned my first life as a monk was a 28 point build, and monks are recommended to be 32 points due to MAD, the fact that I managed to cap it, and gain 20 tokens in old epics is pretty good for my record, and had it not been for some extremely nice players on thelanis giving me some gear to boost my hp, I probably wouldn't have made it. So your argument is "I'm right, and if you disagree with me, I have to shove it down your throats" whereas potta has taken the stance of "don't bother, they are just going to give you grief about it".

Now to quote the bio of my tr:

"Ways to earn an auto-squelch:


1. insult someone because they pointed out that you are either wrong or being annoying.

2. insist that you are incapable of being wrong.

3.

no, theres only 2."

You seem to be insisting that you are incapable of being wrong in this case, while I have stated that I am open to changing my views so long as I see a reason to do so. Right now, all I see is a couple of divines trying to force their way of thinking on everyone else, which is exactly the same thing you claim the barbs and fighters are doing to you. I highly expect that your next argument will be filled with raging criticism against me, instead of trying to have an intellectual debate with me or bring evidence to back up your claims. Due to your own actions, my opinion on this issue now includes the possibility of this just being a couple of divine players being jerks. Whether this is just yourself using the OPs thread to your advantage, or the OP is the same way, I have no idea, but you just made the OP look bad.

EDIT: Just a shout of thanks to the players who gave a gfl item and/or a +6 con item to Xenmonk on thelanis.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

+1 for creativity and entertainment. :p


But my version of the story has the Cleric handing out his drug for free, getting an entire community addicted and convinced that they cannot live without his drug.

Then complaining about how expensive his drug is and charging people for it... :cool:

[susiedupfer]

I don't expect fighters and barbs to be able to heal themselves fully - some can, and that's great, but I don't expect it - but if they have no healing potions at all on them, then I'm going to start to wonder why. I have seriously seen people like this. Cure Serious Wounds potions aren't sufficient to completely heal your 200+HP L8 fighter, obviously, but they will top you up in between fights, or keep you alive for long enough for me to get to you or finish saving someone else's backside. Oh, and I don't carry status removal spells for you, so you had better have those potions or you will be wandering round diseased, cursed or poisoned for the duration of the effect. (Anyone can buy and use these potions; it's not my responsibility.)

The second thing I expect from fighters and barbs is healing amp. At least a basic 20 or 30% is good enough, though more is obviously better. This doesn't apply at low levels, but once you hit the mid levels you should have some amp from somewhere. Enhancements, convalescent bracers, finger necklace, blood docent, whatever. Even the 10% ship buff helps.

Basically, bring potions, have healing amp, and don't complain about me swinging an axe in the melee, and we'll get along fine. Full self-sufficiency isn't required, but acting like you've actually considered that your "healer" is a person rather than a hireling is greatly appreciated.


For me, personally, replace "swinging an axe" with "throwing a spell", and you have my opinion. My heal capable toons are more than healbots, but I do heal, well and often. If you stay in range, have a little heal amp(wf-max healer's friend and add items on top of that), and take care of the pot-fixable issues, we will get along fine. Don't tell me how to play my toon. Don't tell me to HJEAL. I will not only stop healing you, I will refuse to play with you until I forget that you said that.

[the613]

susie, what is being disputed here is not that the actions as portrayed by the OP are bad, they are stupidly bad actions. What is being disputed is how often it happens.

[Furare]

The answer is "Sometimes." But it does happen. I've been told off for meleeing in raids, which I do as much because it makes my SP go further as anything else. Using auras and bursts to supplement spell healing plus getting hit by the boss to proc my Torc and Conc Opp is just efficiency, however little melee DPS I'm doing. And it's not insignificant DPS besides. It happens. I think it happens more to melee clerics than to caster clerics, mostly because it has happened to me on several occasions, and I don't think it ever happened to a friend of mine who always built caster clerics. I'm not a noticeably worse healer than he is/was, so I don't think it's that.

It is a thing that happens and an attitude that exists. I don't think it's anywhere near all melees, or even most, but it's a real thing. If you haven't ever had that experience even once, you must be very lucky or too thick-skinned to notice. :p

[the613]

Probably more because I only played a cleric for 14 levels while having a problem getting 20th level on my second life. I haven't noticed people doing it to the clerics I grouped with though, but it may be a much bigger problem at the low and mid levels. there may have been one time, I just have a ridiculously bad memory, I just know someone acting like an idiot at low levels is what caused me to add the auto-squelch thing in my bio.

[sandypaws]

My main concern with this thread is this:
"Why don't you have cure serious wounds pots, tard?"
"What do you mean you don't have a bazillion remove curse pots?"
"I only group with BYOH parties."

Does anyone remember what it is like to be a newbie with 10k plat in the bank, total?
Is a newbie -really- likely to know he needs clickies, pots, positioning awareness, etc?
If you're only in BYOH parties, and you're the experienced person, who exactly is going to mentor/help out the new folks?
How many of these new folks are from other MMOs where healers were...well, babysitters? That's the experience they have to draw on. Of course they might expect heals to come from healer-type classes.

This is not intended as a criticism. There are many reasons why you might prefer an experienced party over a new one. I would be very, very wary about dragging new folks into certain heroic elites/epic elites. And yes, there -are- some people who will never catch on, ever. But is it really the best idea to let the new folks make their own mistakes, maybe learn and maybe not, then mock them when they show up unprepared in a higher level party?

The only times I have ever, ever seen a cleric on Cannith asked to sit back and heal are:
1) He's blown through half his sp in the first two rooms of a quest spamming cometfall and fully metad searing light.
2) He's rushed into a 6-troll melee with a greataxe, at level 12, with only 130ish hp. And promptly gone squish. Three times.

So to be honest, I'm not entirely sure where these complaints are coming from. Maybe it's just my server, but as long as the cleric isn't dying due to being in melee and seems to have some sense of SP-conservation, most folks don't really seem to care.

[Chai]

This was posted this in another thread as well. It didnt have the snazzy little ending on it where the cleric cometfalls the melee types.

My take on the situation.

Clerics who only stand back and heal are playing half of their class.
Clerics who will NOT heal anyone but themselves are ALSO playing half their class.

Divines in D&D are different than their cloth robe wearing cousins of other MMOs. They are more of a proactive damage mitigation device than a reactive damage recovery device. A greater command costs less mana than it would take to heal the party after meleeing the mobs down. Implosion gets more powerful as mobs HP increase, and every mob it kills is one less source of damage to the party. The most efficient use of mana is not simply healing the party.

When people are lower HP the cleric should be helping keep them alive however. Many times Ive seen divines try to make the case that just because they have the best heal spells in the game doesnt mean they are forced to use them on people who do not have that ability. I often reply that they should be soloing then. Its as absurd of a claim as a wizard who buffs the party then just runs along with them and pikes. Playing half the class doesnt sound so attractive now, does it.

[Furare]

My main concern with this thread is this:
"Why don't you have cure serious wounds pots, tard?"
"What do you mean you don't have a bazillion remove curse pots?"
"I only group with BYOH parties."

Does anyone remember what it is like to be a newbie with 10k plat in the bank, total?
Is a newbie -really- likely to know he needs clickies, pots, positioning awareness, etc?


If you're running a L12 quest on Elite (thinking Wiz King specifically, here), you should have remove curse potions. You should not be running that sort of quest if you don't have the experience to know what you need, and the plat to finance those necessities, and you should not be expecting me to make up your shortfall. I'm not talking about new players here. I'm talking about people who should know better. If you're running quests on Elite I assume - more fool me, apparently - that you know what you're doing.

Honestly, though, since Bravery Bonus I've seen a ton of people running quests on Elite when it's the first time they've ever stepped into it. You shouldn't be doing that. I learned the game playing practically everything one level over on Normal. That's a way more forgiving way to figure out what you need to do to survive. A great noob moment that I still remember is having no remove blindness pots in a Bloody Crypt run, getting blinded and running around in circles looking for anything that might help in my inventory. Because it was Normal, I didn't die and no one was really inconvenienced by me being a noob. If it had been Elite, that might have been far worse, leading to deaths and much vexation.

If you're running stuff on Elite before you know you need to carry cure pots or before you can afford to buy them, then I'm sorry, but I'm going to get annoyed with you. And I'm one of the people who doesn't run exclusively BYOH on my cleric, and who believes it's my job to heal people as well as whatever else I feel like doing. Just... help me out a little here, you know?

[Daggyr]

The line of reasoning put forth for clerics as submissives sounds an awful lot like "the little women should just stay at home and take care of that stuff so the REAL workers can get the job done."

1. Clerics are players too. Each player contributes something to the party. Damage fixing or damage prevention or beating a portal down with aura kicking.

2. Clerics (or pallys, or artis, or...) may not have the best DPS, but when the non-self sufficient character is dead on the ground, the good healer is still kicking (more slowly to be sure), still healing, can raise the dead, etc. The dead insufficient character is providing exactly zero DPS.

3. I LIKE healing. It's what I do on a cleric. If you want a party member to support the party, I'm there. If you want just a healer, get a hire. Don't treat me like a 2nd class citizen. If you want me to do something for your character that you can't do yourself, ask me nicely. I might just surprise you by making the quest go more smoothly, not asking for anything in return except the chance to play, as an equal member of the party, and to be treated with a little respect.

[firemedium_jt]

OMFG

72 posts on this.



Just go play the game.

[Furare]

Just go play the game.

Well, I would, but that would be harder to hide from my boss. :rolleyes:

[Karavek]

In response to some claiming I am a never heal type allow me to share a experience from playing.

I was lvling up myself a clonkcher, and one day around lvl 10( i think my spread at the time was 6cleric/2monk/2fighter) and I joined a group doing the threnal chain on elite.

We where lead by a pure lvl 10 cleric, had a lvl 9 FVS, and the rest consisted of a rogue,and a pair of barbs.

We started out and everything went pretty smoothly until the good ol defend coyle for 15 minutes moment.

First time in the cleric said he would buff then focus on healing coyle, and asked the fvs to help cover the party. I said id be doing what I could to assist with my RS1 burst and mild spot heals if needed.

The FVS never said a word in reply, but soon after battle started it became clear he didnt even pack heal spells, something we hadnt noticed since the lead cleric was quite good at healing if it was needed. Needless to say when the cleric tried to multi task and keep the party up coyle got put down in the chaos.

So we go well lets try again on elite, this time when the cleric asked the FVS to cover coyle we got the classic I dont heal speech that has created the hate towards so called battle clerics. To be fair he couldnt really heal being a FVS with no healing magic but needless to say I still shake my head at the thought of such a poorly conceived character.

At this point the cleric suggest the FVS use wands and items to do it so we can just get it done, keeping coyle up isnt that hard if its all you do. The FVS freaked out on the cleric and the rest of us calling us all the gimps and expecting him to play heal bot. Needless to say this to me is a real case of the victim healer complex certain posters here are trying to apply to me.

At this point the cleric told the FVS to take a walk as he was a waste of a spot. He was going to just let one of the barbs grab a nanny bot to cover the group while he focussed on coyle when I spoke up offering to watch coyle.

Needless to say the entire party was taken aback by an obvious so called battle cleric build being ready to shoulder what some would argue is the most mind numbing and difficult at level quest objective in the game.

I said guys I am a rad1, I got more then enough healing to sustain me, thats more then enough to sustain kamikaze coyle. I ask the cleric if he wouldnt midn watching my back abit as baby sitting coyle can sometimes take more focus then a pack full of barbarian mana sponges. So we began the instance again and did our thing, it went flawlessly and both the barbs started to understand the price they where paying lacking self heals. I still know both those players, they still both favor the barbarian, one now days plays halflings almost exclusively and the other is the same with helf. The racial choice was the easy compromise to them to stay their favored class and play style while not being a major burden to others.

This is the same reason most choose to play clerics, not to heal others, but to be self reliant. Yes we can heal others, and will if the NEED is there, but rarely should the NEED exist of the other players are taking their fair share of personal responsibility in looking after every need they can.

Some have tried to infer I direct my hate towards new players, but if one looks over my postings in this thread you will see I make clear allowances for new players ignorant of D&D who come from a wowtarded school of MMO play. I am always quick to advise them on how to become more self reliant and although am far from eternally wealthy often give out a candy cane left over from the holidays to a struggling warrior who likes to have abit of self preparedness when the cleric is low on mana.

My issue is aimed entirely at experienced players who still after years choose to make characters lacking basic survival tools for the game we play in. Its not some secret many builds especially first time builds are flawed to the point of gimpness, no matter what one wants to say, in a game where staying healthy is a must, and many options exist to self heal are provided, trying to force other players to sit back, shut up, and heal is not only still very common, its still very common among TRs and players with several years of experience.

I was once told the game is not built for low con, finesse based melee builds and trying to make them was just wasting time on gimp builds. I ignored them and spent a long time working on finesse characters who dumped con to prove my point and found that it is a very enjoyable and challenging way to play the game though granted I would never make one for a PD group. But I dont argue with the general reality that con and strength are the keys to a solid melee character. What I do argue with is that any solid build lacks something as important as self healing especially in any sitch short of an EE raid boss fight. I wont deny some content forces a NEED for a nanny mode, but i will argue any content that creates that need is poorly designed and a bigger waste of dev resources then adding an entire pvp expansion.

Love us or hate us, we who play clerics are always the ones being waited for in LFMs, to bad most of those lfm posters dont get that need heal is a sure sign to avoid those groups.

[Karavek]

This was posted this in another thread as well. It didnt have the snazzy little ending on it where the cleric cometfalls the melee types.

My take on the situation.

Clerics who only stand back and heal are playing half of their class.
Clerics who will NOT heal anyone but themselves are ALSO playing half their class.

Divines in D&D are different than their cloth robe wearing cousins of other MMOs. They are more of a proactive damage mitigation device than a reactive damage recovery device. A greater command costs less mana than it would take to heal the party after meleeing the mobs down. Implosion gets more powerful as mobs HP increase, and every mob it kills is one less source of damage to the party. The most efficient use of mana is not simply healing the party.

When people are lower HP the cleric should be helping keep them alive however. Many times Ive seen divines try to make the case that just because they have the best heal spells in the game doesnt mean they are forced to use them on people who do not have that ability. I often reply that they should be soloing then. Its as absurd of a claim as a wizard who buffs the party then just runs along with them and pikes. Playing half the class doesnt sound so attractive now, does it.

yes, yes it was, I decided after a few responses in that thread to tweek it a little and make it its own post. Judging by the discussion I think I made the right choice as clearly its a topic some needed a chance to vent about aside from just myself.

frankly Im glad for anyone who has played a cleric and avoided this type of negative behavior. However as long as some use the term healer to mean cleric we will never truly be free of the stigma.

[bigolbear]

**** i love cleric threads, always guarenteed drama!

[Karavek]

**** i love cleric threads, always guarenteed drama!

Indeed. Btw I loved your little wizard/rogue bit in the thread, I know those feelings all to well myself as rogue was and probably still is my favored class. The days when no one let us in groups for other then traps is still fresh in my mind and one of the reasons DDO could never be my main MMO. To many other players willing to treat those on certain classes as little more then situational tools and only there to be ordered around.

[Mubjon]

Ok, mubjon, I am going to point out something to you about what you posted about me. You said I had not capped a character, yet I deliberately stated that my level 7 monk (I actually leveled it to 8 earlier) is 36 point buy, only achievable by someone who has tred twice (I am on my third life now with him, so exactly 2 trs for me) or more, so not only did I cap him once, I capped him again, with a higher xp per level. It seems you attempted to force your view on me by misrepresenting the data I gave. On top of that, I had specifically said that it was a possibility that it was going on, and I was fine saying you guys are right when it has been proven to me, either through my experiences, or hard evidence (which is not brought in any of your arguments btw). Also, I mentioned my first life as a monk was a 28 point build, and monks are recommended to be 32 points due to MAD, the fact that I managed to cap it, and gain 20 tokens in old epics is pretty good for my record, and had it not been for some extremely nice players on thelanis giving me some gear to boost my hp, I probably wouldn't have made it. So your argument is "I'm right, and if you disagree with me, I have to shove it down your throats" whereas potta has taken the stance of "don't bother, they are just going to give you grief about it".

Now to quote the bio of my tr:

"Ways to earn an auto-squelch:


1. insult someone because they pointed out that you are either wrong or being annoying.

2. insist that you are incapable of being wrong.

3.

no, theres only 2."

You seem to be insisting that you are incapable of being wrong in this case, while I have stated that I am open to changing my views so long as I see a reason to do so. Right now, all I see is a couple of divines trying to force their way of thinking on everyone else, which is exactly the same thing you claim the barbs and fighters are doing to you. I highly expect that your next argument will be filled with raging criticism against me, instead of trying to have an intellectual debate with me or bring evidence to back up your claims. Due to your own actions, my opinion on this issue now includes the possibility of this just being a couple of divine players being jerks. Whether this is just yourself using the OPs thread to your advantage, or the OP is the same way, I have no idea, but you just made the OP look bad.

EDIT: Just a shout of thanks to the players who gave a gfl item and/or a +6 con item to Xenmonk on thelanis.

No I asked you if you capp'd one, because you made it sound as if the first was only a 28 pt build and that you had plans to go for 3 lives.

That your cleric is not even at cap and is at a level that takes about 5 to 7 hours to get to. I wanted to find out how much experience you had and if you had not cap'd even a single character that you do not play enough in the last 3 years to make a judgement on what happens during a pug.

It is amazing that people seem to forget that there are players on 24/7 and depending on times no fewer than 10 pugs going at once. To claim that because you have not experience it, that it never happens and to then blame the people it has happen too is just short of ignorance.

You want proof of what has happened, are we supposed to take screenshots of bad melees? As I stated if you did not see this behavior then you must be just healbotting and doing what the melees want. Instead of playing the cleric to the fullest potential that is available to the class.

The fact that you think asking you questions to clarify your play experience on a poorly worded paragraph says more about you, than me and asking you if I read you correctly.

[Mubjon]

Join a pug for harbour quests with a bunch of first lifers, it's like trying to herd cats. They could be down to 2hp and they'll still run off openeing doors and carrying on as if they were invincible, when they die they stand on their stone and go afk.

By mid level it's less common, and you have more than one cure to throw, so when you get the -out of range, out of range, blocked, casting* but blocked anyway and now its on cooldown - moments, you can still top them off.
But you get the folks that have learned about hirelings and expect an on demand heal right on their backside no matter which direction they run, the problem arises when you have 2 or more of these in 1 group. Doesnt matter how good of a healer you think you are, you can't be in 2 places at once, you can ask them to stick together, but it doesnt always work, many of then haven't learned about headphones yet.

Toward end game it's much less common, but it still happens in quests where the party has to split up or can easily be split up. Like when doing ghosts of perdition, the party splits in 2 to kill the 2 brothers (this actually happened to me) the leader asked me (a fvs) to kill the second brother and he (a paladin) would kill the first, the ranger decided that would be a good time to pull agro on the first brother, run around a bit and die while yelling into the mic 'where are the heals, I'm using a triple positive bow, do you think I'm playing around here?' Kill the 2 brothers, run back up the ramp to throw him a raise, he is afk, try again while running back down he takes it. I heal him to full, he hits sprint boost and runs down the hall to where you meet the doomsphere, and I'm thinking to myself, you better have a firewall waiting at the bottom, of course he didn't and died again, and again 'where's the heals?' My fault, bad healer.

Or in coal chamber, when we get to the first shaft, and the no heal amp wf barb falls off when we are half way up, says nothing, decides that would be a good time to backtrack and clear the rooms we skipped, runs through a trap agros a bunch of mobs... in his defence he actually did start to drink pots at this point. And the sorc says 'hey healer, how about healing the barb'. To which I say, 'do you know where he is'? I check the map, drop down run all the way all way back and ding, too late. My fault, bad healer.

It's much less common end game, but it has happened to me where I joined a pug for epic the black loch, this one is short, the wf wizard steps in before anyone else, buffs, summons an earth elemental and goes afk to get a drink, the earth elly agros the mobs in the first room and they quickly finish off the caster. He gets on the mic and says 'why didn't you heal me?', the cleric wasn't even in the dungeon yet. This one wasn't my fault, I was a fighter at the time.

Nah you are lying man, this stuff never happens!

How about running Epic Hard (not that epic hard is all that hard mind you) Thrashnak Arena. Running an aura that is ticking for about 40 every two seconds, burst healing or casting greater restore from a scroll to remove level drains as you notice them (yes it is easy to recongize when a character gets a level drain if you are actually good at being a Cleric) and tossing comet falls that knock down 5 of the 7 mobs that enter at once, or casting greater command to drop them on the ground so the melees can have an easier time attacking or having them sit in the firewall without needing to be kited back through for 6 to 12 seconds longer.

No one has so much dropped below 25% health due to the constant healing aura, but because you step up with a paralyzing weapon and begin paralyzing the remaining standing on their feet with divine power going and an AC that would make a all but the best geared AC tank blush (90 ac and 40 PRR).

Then having a server lag where the party does take some damage you keep them all from dying with mass heal and bursts. Get a shout over the mic about how bad of a cleric you are for stepping into melee.

That is with a couple level 20 (5 epic) barbs in the party.

I did TR that cleric into a druid because I got tired of listening to people like that at even epics that were not on epic elite. If I am in a raid or running content where I know the party is not going to be able to handle the incoming damage, then standing back offensive casting and healing go hand in hand. The problem only comes when I am told all I should be doing is healing and nothing else. Boredom has a price and that price is fairly expensive. I know the quests well enough to know when i should heal, remove status aliments and when I can offensive cast, cc or even melee.

[Karavek]

Nah you are lying man, this stuff never happens!

How about running Epic Hard (not that epic hard is all that hard mind you) Thrashnak Arena. Running an aura that is ticking for about 40 every two seconds, burst healing or casting greater restore from a scroll to remove level drains as you notice them (yes it is easy to recongize when a character gets a level drain if you are actually good at being a Cleric) and tossing comet falls that knock down 5 of the 7 mobs that enter at once, or casting greater command to drop them on the ground so the melees can have an easier time attacking or having them sit in the firewall without needing to be kited back through for 6 to 12 seconds longer.

No one has so much dropped below 25% health due to the constant healing aura, but because you step up with a paralyzing weapon and begin paralyzing the remaining standing on their feet with divine power going and an AC that would make a all but the best geared AC tank blush (90 ac and 40 PRR).

Then having a server lag where the party does take some damage you keep them all from dying with mass heal and bursts. Get a shout over the mic about how bad of a cleric you are for stepping into melee.

That is with a couple level 20 (5 epic) barbs in the party.

I did TR that cleric into a druid because I got tired of listening to people like that at even epics that were not on epic elite. If I am in a raid or running content where I know the party is not going to be able to handle the incoming damage, then standing back offensive casting and healing go hand in hand. The problem only comes when I am told all I should be doing is healing and nothing else. Boredom has a price and that price is fairly expensive. I know the quests well enough to know when i should heal, remove status aliments and when I can offensive cast, cc or even melee.

I feel for you my brother I have been in so many pugs that bite off more then they can chew and put all the blame on the cleric or fvs in the group.

[the613]

Mubjon, you are now putting words in my mouth. I am in no way claiming that it doesn't happen. I'm just saying I have not experienced it, and have stated since the beginning that it could be for many reasons. On top of that, considering I clearly said my current life was the 36 point monk, how could it have been thought that it was a 28 point first lifer still? My only claim is all I have been seeing is you trying to force your opinion down other people's throats, an action I clearly don't like. Also, to make sure you understand my position, your insisting and criticism of me has made me want to say it's the healers fault, but yet when Furare made an intelligent post on the subject, one which wasn't telling anyone off for having their own views, I mentioned that someone had been annoying towards a party member in a low level group, and such caused my auto-squelch thing. On top of that, my cleric isn't a healbot, it's a melee cleric, something you would have known if you read all the information on gave on her. I simply don't believe in playing a healbot. In my opinion, every class in ddo is given a certain ability set. Clerics have excellent healing, good CC, ok damage spells, and ok or good melee. A healbot is only making use of the healing aspect, and ignoring the others. Every party wants a divine because some people want to play characters with a single focus, maybe they have a hard time multiclassing. If the divine can do a decent job healing, and also do melee, CC, and/or damage casting at the same time, I have no problem. What becomes a problem is when they don't heal at all, because the simple truth is you have the best heals. Refusing to use the tool you are the best with, one which is also pretty exclusive (only clerics, fvs, and druids have the heal spell) is the same as being told to be a healbot, you aren't using the class to it's max.

[Karavek]

Mubjon, you are now putting words in my mouth. I am in no way claiming that it doesn't happen. I'm just saying I have not experienced it, and have stated since the beginning that it could be for many reasons. On top of that, considering I clearly said my current life was the 36 point monk, how could it have been thought that it was a 28 point first lifer still? My only claim is all I have been seeing is you trying to force your opinion down other people's throats, an action I clearly don't like. Also, to make sure you understand my position, your insisting and criticism of me has made me want to say it's the healers fault, but yet when Furare made an intelligent post on the subject, one which wasn't telling anyone off for having their own views, I mentioned that someone had been annoying towards a party member in a low level group, and such caused my auto-squelch thing. On top of that, my cleric isn't a healbot, it's a melee cleric, something you would have known if you read all the information on gave on her. I simply don't believe in playing a healbot. In my opinion, every class in ddo is given a certain ability set. Clerics have excellent healing, good CC, ok damage spells, and ok or good melee. A healbot is only making use of the healing aspect, and ignoring the others. Every party wants a divine because some people want to play characters with a single focus, maybe they have a hard time multiclassing. If the divine can do a decent job healing, and also do melee, CC, and/or damage casting at the same time, I have no problem. What becomes a problem is when they don't heal at all, because the simple truth is you have the best heals. Refusing to use the tool you are the best with, one which is also pretty exclusive (only clerics, fvs, and druids have the heal spell) is the same as being told to be a healbot, you aren't using the class to it's max.

whoah there bud, I think its more a case of your earlier posts not being written as clearly as they could of been and mubi misunderstanding your position.

Sounded me like you had just been lucky with avoiding the douch bags on your cleric phase.

Not everyone playing treats clerics like slaves, if you have been so fortunate then great. However be fair warned if you play a divine caster and frequently pug your odds of this streak continuing will drop sharply.

Also if your playing a monk which is pretty much the perfection of self reliant melee mastery thanks to tricks like wholeness of body and such then you probably tend to take enough stress off a cleric in your groups that divine healers are likely left with more SP to cover mana sponges.

However there is not any way people like mub, myself or others are wrong as its not a question of if we are right or wrong. The OP is a statement of what is, discussing if its acceptable to treat other players like slaves is the topic of discussion not if the treatment does happen as that is a matter of fact any long term vet who puts in alot of hours a week pugging can and has in this and many other threads verified.

Feel free to do a search of cleric, even in the last weeks a few other threads discussing dissatisfaction with playing a divine caster have popped up, and common posts are about the way other players verbally abuse them.

[the613]

my problem was the way mubjon responded to my original post, which i had clearly said was based off of my experiences, and mubjon seemed to react like my experience was not enough, even though I was merely saying I had not seen it. That action made me look at mubjon, and to a lesser extent, all the complaining clerics, in a worse way. The only thing I have been trying to do since the original post is point out to mubjon how his reaction to me stating my personal experiences was detrimental to the thread as a whole. I am also trying to point out that I feel he is treating me in this thread the same way he says the melees are treating him. I am only trying to make this in to an intelligent talk or debate, like it appears you and Furare have been doing, instead of two sides warring with each other, neither one willing to give an inch, which is what I see mubjon doing.

[Mubjon]

Mubjon, you are now putting words in my mouth. I am in no way claiming that it doesn't happen. I'm just saying I have not experienced it, and have stated since the beginning that it could be for many reasons. On top of that, considering I clearly said my current life was the 36 point monk, how could it have been thought that it was a 28 point first lifer still? My only claim is all I have been seeing is you trying to force your opinion down other people's throats, an action I clearly don't like. Also, to make sure you understand my position, your insisting and criticism of me has made me want to say it's the healers fault, but yet when Furare made an intelligent post on the subject, one which wasn't telling anyone off for having their own views, I mentioned that someone had been annoying towards a party member in a low level group, and such caused my auto-squelch thing. On top of that, my cleric isn't a healbot, it's a melee cleric, something you would have known if you read all the information on gave on her. I simply don't believe in playing a healbot. In my opinion, every class in ddo is given a certain ability set. Clerics have excellent healing, good CC, ok damage spells, and ok or good melee. A healbot is only making use of the healing aspect, and ignoring the others. Every party wants a divine because some people want to play characters with a single focus, maybe they have a hard time multiclassing. If the divine can do a decent job healing, and also do melee, CC, and/or damage casting at the same time, I have no problem. What becomes a problem is when they don't heal at all, because the simple truth is you have the best heals. Refusing to use the tool you are the best with, one which is also pretty exclusive (only clerics, fvs, and druids have the heal spell) is the same as being told to be a healbot, you aren't using the class to it's max.

You could find the space button and break up the wall of text a bit. This would help with those that are trying read it and not miss information that you are trying to give out. Also not getting offended because someone ask you a question or three would go a long way at helping as well. If you read what I stated there is nothing offensive in there. Definitely not even close to be offensive as calling the victim of those that treat others as their personal freebie hirelings the problem.

The only thing that I have a problem with is that people stating that the victim is in the wrong. Those of us that have said that we have experienced this have all stated it is not every quest or every melee. I have stated I run into it once a week out of 30 hours of play time. That is less than 1% of the time I am in the game, but as it is negative it is the one that stands out the most during that time.

I do not have a friends list of friends, I have a list of those that have acted this way towards me with a note on what they said. And I just counted tonight, it is at 25 since I started keeping track back in April, or about 4 a month.

[Karavek]

my problem was the way mubjon responded to my original post, which i had clearly said was based off of my experiences, and mubjon seemed to react like my experience was not enough, even though I was merely saying I had not seen it. That action made me look at mubjon, and to a lesser extent, all the complaining clerics, in a worse way. The only thing I have been trying to do since the original post is point out to mubjon how his reaction to me stating my personal experiences was detrimental to the thread as a whole. I am also trying to point out that I feel he is treating me in this thread the same way he says the melees are treating him. I am only trying to make this in to an intelligent talk or debate, like it appears you and Furare have been doing, instead of two sides warring with each other, neither one willing to give an inch, which is what I see mubjon doing.

All I can say in defense of Mubi is it seems likely he had gotten heated up due to that potty fella, and you got caught in the crossfire. Also and not to be critical some of your early posts are abit wallish, maybe try giving a line of space every few lines to help break it up, I dont even mean be grammatically correct about it, just give some space so it doesnt hit the eyes quite so hard.

In the end though for both the thread is at least doing partially its goal which is to give those who feel strongly about the topic a chance to vent.

Lets just try and keep it civil gents, well as civilized as rending our enemies limb from limb can be eh.

[Mubjon]

my problem was the way mubjon responded to my original post, which i had clearly said was based off of my experiences, and mubjon seemed to react like my experience was not enough, even though I was merely saying I had not seen it. That action made me look at mubjon, and to a lesser extent, all the complaining clerics, in a worse way. The only thing I have been trying to do since the original post is point out to mubjon how his reaction to me stating my personal experiences was detrimental to the thread as a whole. I am also trying to point out that I feel he is treating me in this thread the same way he says the melees are treating him. I am only trying to make this in to an intelligent talk or debate, like it appears you and Furare have been doing, instead of two sides warring with each other, neither one willing to give an inch, which is what I see mubjon doing.


lol I asked you three questions because it was not clear. you took it to being offended :) Read what I stated again and take off the easily offended glasses.

If asking questions is treating you like a slave, how do you ever get along in life?

[Mubjon]

All I can say in defense of Mubi is it seems likely he had gotten heated up due to that potty fella, and you got caught in the crossfire. Also and not to be critical some of your early posts are abit wallish, maybe try giving a line of space every few lines to help break it up, I dont even mean be grammatically correct about it, just give some space so it doesnt hit the eyes quite so hard.

In the end though for both the thread is at least doing partially its goal which is to give those who feel strongly about the topic a chance to vent.

Lets just try and keep it civil gents, well as civilized as rending our enemies limb from limb can be eh.

I did not even get into his business lol I asked him some questions because I could not get everything from his wall of text that I wanted and needed to understand what he was trying to say.

As far as potta goes, well it is easy to ignore trolls :) As you can tell I have yet to respond to any of his trollish behavior once it became apparent that his only goal was to troll the thread. You know what they say about feeding trolls right? They just leave bigger piles of....


Wait, so you have a grand total of two characters, both of which have not reached cap and you have a start date of 2009?

How long do you actually play in the month? 5 hours? I ask because this could be the reason you have not seen it yet.

See question marks are usually used to get a better understanding of what is said. No one i know of is ever offended by asking questions.

[Karavek]

lol I asked you three questions because it was not clear. you took it to being offended :) Read what I stated again and take off the easily offended glasses.

If asking questions is treating you like a slave, how do you ever get along in life?

Hey mub I know your passions run high as mine but I dont think 613 was trying to offend, and is clearly abit new and his skin has yet to take on the hardness we have been forced to cultivate so perhaps accept this as a case of miscommunication rather then outright antagonism as say a few other posters have been.

I truly think the lad was not trying to say we didnt suffer the yoke of oppression just that he hadnt yet seen it and was not trying to say we where the problem until things got heated up for multiple posters.

So lets bury the hatchet along with a few orc barbarians and get back to the how can we educate without being seen as callous, uncaring, selfish players for wanting to do more then sit back and heal.

[the613]

Ok, I'm going to have to apologize to mubjon here. karavek is right in that i haven't built up a tough skin yet, I don't post on the forums much, and not usually more then once in a thread. Also, I took your questions as being sarcastic, and meant to insult me, which seems to clearly not be the case. Sorry about doing so, and I realize that it does happen, I was just trying to figure out the quantity, and if it was concentrated more at certain levels and/or certain servers. Sorry about the walls of text also, as I've said, I usually don't post much on the forums.

[Habreno]

Sadly going to TR my Cleric soon into a more melee build. Sick of this "hjeal me!" attitude.


Posted a BYOH LFM, where I don't even require your own heals but more an awareness about your HP, for Epic Hard VoN 1-4. It fills rather fast, my aura does most of the healing and nobody complains. But then I get the barb who sees a Cleric, joins, and has jack **** for self sufficency. And the one time I do heal him, as a warning to him, it hits him for under 300... which means his heal amp is jack **** as well (he was a WF). He dies, and rezzes a few times but just keeps dying.

And then I'll get the barb who wanted to bring a hireling for self heals and I told him (in a tell) to not worry about it, because I didn't ask for no hires, and filled group and healed him. He did really well, even had CSW pots and used them frequently, along with my aura.


Third example was a barb with SF pots. I tried to limit his use of them because he is more DPS without than with. Didn't tell him, but I'd rather pause my DPS and heal him than lessen his DPS because it's better for the group.



Even when I BYOH, I don't always require you to cover every single HP you need. All I ever ask is you make an effort, and I will, in turn, make an effort as great as yours to keep you up if you get in a jam. This means if you make no effort to heal yourself, I will make just as much lack of effort to heal you.



But that will end soon. Few more destinies to cap out, then a TR.

[Mubjon]

Ok, I'm going to have to apologize to mubjon here. karavek is right in that i haven't built up a tough skin yet, I don't post on the forums much, and not usually more then once in a thread. Also, I took your questions as being sarcastic, and meant to insult me, which seems to clearly not be the case. Sorry about doing so, and I realize that it does happen, I was just trying to figure out the quantity, and if it was concentrated more at certain levels and/or certain servers. Sorry about the walls of text also, as I've said, I usually don't post much on the forums.

I will apologize for coming off that way, I try to communicate better than that. So part of the problem was the way I was talking to others i am sure. I am a very passionate guy when it comes to divines. I love the class for all it can be and hate to see it being treated as such.

I have a hard time reading walls of text on my computer screen. Not sure why, but I do and that is why I will always ask questions about something I read to better understand it.

The treatment i have experienced does not happen that often for the time I play. I do put almost a full weeks worth of work into this game. Having it happen to me once every 40 quests (about average for a week) is not that much I think.

[Mubjon]

Hey mub I know your passions run high as mine but I dont think 613 was trying to offend, and is clearly abit new and his skin has yet to take on the hardness we have been forced to cultivate so perhaps accept this as a case of miscommunication rather then outright antagonism as say a few other posters have been.

I truly think the lad was not trying to say we didnt suffer the yoke of oppression just that he hadnt yet seen it and was not trying to say we where the problem until things got heated up for multiple posters.

So lets bury the hatchet along with a few orc barbarians and get back to the how can we educate without being seen as callous, uncaring, selfish players for wanting to do more then sit back and heal.

I did not think he was trying to offend, I think he was offended by what I said which was fairly innocent and just seeking clarification on a post I had a hard time reading properly.

As long as we are refusing to be good little free hirelings, we will always be viewed as being selfish, uncaring and the most evil by a small segment of the DDO population.

I have tried to educate some on this throughout the last year. Trying to help them see that a Divine can be much more than just a mindless healbot. The problem is that many believe that the way of WoW is the only way to play a Divine. I might do a FvS and see if I can run into this problem less, but I think I am going to stick to Druids as they can heal about 90% and are not looked at as a slave to the barbarians.

[Mubjon]

Sadly going to TR my Cleric soon into a more melee build. Sick of this "hjeal me!" attitude.


Posted a BYOH LFM, where I don't even require your own heals but more an awareness about your HP, for Epic Hard VoN 1-4. It fills rather fast, my aura does most of the healing and nobody complains. But then I get the barb who sees a Cleric, joins, and has jack **** for self sufficency. And the one time I do heal him, as a warning to him, it hits him for under 300... which means his heal amp is jack **** as well (he was a WF). He dies, and rezzes a few times but just keeps dying.

And then I'll get the barb who wanted to bring a hireling for self heals and I told him (in a tell) to not worry about it, because I didn't ask for no hires, and filled group and healed him. He did really well, even had CSW pots and used them frequently, along with my aura.


Third example was a barb with SF pots. I tried to limit his use of them because he is more DPS without than with. Didn't tell him, but I'd rather pause my DPS and heal him than lessen his DPS because it's better for the group.



Even when I BYOH, I don't always require you to cover every single HP you need. All I ever ask is you make an effort, and I will, in turn, make an effort as great as yours to keep you up if you get in a jam. This means if you make no effort to heal yourself, I will make just as much lack of effort to heal you.



But that will end soon. Few more destinies to cap out, then a TR.

The first character is the one that I have a problem with. The other two are great additions to the party and I agree that during a battle if it is needed to heal. I do not think it is too much to ask them to heal that last 10 to 15% that they are left with after the battle, or to stand in the aura and have it top them off before we continue.

It is why I started charging for babysitting services if that is what they want. I do not charge them if they just let me play. But, if they start in on how I am horrible I will let them die unless they pay my fees.

[Rawel_San]

<snip>That's what self sufficiency is when you're levelling. It's not Silver Flame Pots or Heal scrolls. It's Cure Serious Pots, and beyond level 7 or so they're useless.
How are they useless? I use cure serious pots to heal up at lvl 25 when I need they hit me for 70-80.



Many seem to not realise the fact that having a healing ability on your spell list doesn't make you better or your build superior. People should not be beaten down for picking a build that isn't as self sufficient as theirs because that'd leave us with no Barbarians, Fighters or Dark Monks. Don't go dissing my dark monk.
I get 3,6,9 back from Ivy Wraps, have sf pots and csw pots hit me for 70-80.



It'd mean we'd see no other race than Half-Elf for the Dilly, and if you were a non-Arcane WF, <snip>
My caster is an elf wizard and can no fail umd ressurection scrolls. It's all about trying. I have healed many
parties through dungeons.



There's no such thing as a smart healer who groups with 5 morons whom he out DPS's to such a point that it's better for the group for him to carry them in his backpack to the finish. Because a smart player in such a group would leave and solo the dungeon faster thanks to scaling.

There's a huge amount of such players in general, be it caster/healer/melee. The number of times that at low
level I group and get 1-5 other players that make the completion take longer then it would have, had I been
soloing is quite possibly 1 in 3 but certainly 1 in 2. The reason I group is because it's fun and alleviates some
of the tedium of running a quest for the umpteenth time. Now don't get me wrong I tend to heal on whatever
character I have since pretty much all of my characters have enough umd for wands at low levels and scrolls at
cap and if they don't I'm happy to hand out stacks of 100 csw potions.

I also strongly disagree that csw potions are no use after lvl 7. They are obviously a lot worse then umd'd heal
scrolls but are still a very decent source of healing till lvl 15-16 for most people and as I said before I still use
them on my monk at cap when I don't need burst healing and can afford to chug 3-4.



If anything, healers are overvalued and given too much gratitude by parties. I get compliments for healing on my divine all the time. Praise for playing well when I know for a fact that I've done nothing special. I've performed a job adequately, but it was not difficult enough to warrant praise. I could have been replaced by any other average healer and the party would have gotten the same result. Other times on my Monk, I'll have carried the entire party. Had an EiN saved to wipe out a spawn that killed the healer and half the party; a rez clicky to get them back up. My damage and kills outshine the rest of the DPS to the point where you could add all the kills from the rest of the party together and it'd still be less than mine. I know when I play like that on my Monk, I've been a lot more instrumental to the success of this party than most of runs on my Divine, but it's never mentioned.
<snip>

Few people care how many kills you got and there are 100's of melee types that will come along and kill stuff
well and fast. There is in general a shortage of divines and even more so of divines who are willing to go and babysit people. Especially since there are currently almost no places you even remotely need a healer with the
exception of raids,and ee's. E hards can be run by pretty much any 6 people that show up.

I agree that divines should calm down a bit on the whining about how under appreciated and pigeon holed they
are,but having just decided to TR my capped fvs because it is annoying and boring as heck to play so I want 9 pl's on him, I do partially understand where the people are coming from. The issue for me often isn't that my fvs
could go and solo the quest faster then healing the people that come along. It's more the annoyance that I know
my monk, wizard or even the gimped exploiter could.
Just my 2 cents,
Rawel

[Karavek]

How are they useless? I use cure serious pots to heal up at lvl 25 when I need they hit me for 70-80.

Don't go dissing my dark monk.
I get 3,6,9 back from Ivy Wraps, have sf pots and csw pots hit me for 70-80.


My caster is an elf wizard and can no fail umd ressurection scrolls. It's all about trying. I have healed many
parties through dungeons.


There's a huge amount of such players in general, be it caster/healer/melee. The number of times that at low
level I group and get 1-5 other players that make the completion take longer then it would have, had I been
soloing is quite possibly 1 in 3 but certainly 1 in 2. The reason I group is because it's fun and alleviates some
of the tedium of running a quest for the umpteenth time. Now don't get me wrong I tend to heal on whatever
character I have since pretty much all of my characters have enough umd for wands at low levels and scrolls at
cap and if they don't I'm happy to hand out stacks of 100 csw potions.

I also strongly disagree that csw potions are no use after lvl 7. They are obviously a lot worse then umd'd heal
scrolls but are still a very decent source of healing till lvl 15-16 for most people and as I said before I still use
them on my monk at cap when I don't need burst healing and can afford to chug 3-4.



Few people care how many kills you got and there are 100's of melee types that will come along and kill stuff
well and fast. There is in general a shortage of divines and even more so of divines who are willing to go and babysit people. Especially since there are currently almost no places you even remotely need a healer with the
exception of raids,and ee's. E hards can be run by pretty much any 6 people that show up.

I agree that divines should calm down a bit on the whining about how under appreciated and pigeon holed they
are,but having just decided to TR my capped fvs because it is annoying and boring as heck to play so I want 9 pl's on him, I do partially understand where the people are coming from. The issue for me often isn't that my fvs
could go and solo the quest faster then healing the people that come along. It's more the annoyance that I know
my monk, wizard or even the gimped exploiter could.
Just my 2 cents,
Rawel

Very well put.

[HalfOrcBeautyQueen]

Not once have I ever seen this attitude in game. Not on either of my healers nor on my melee. If anything, what I have noticed is the total opposite.

While TR'ing, I've noticed a particular trend whereby people who have the capacity to self heal seem to take that as them being better than those who cannot. If you can't BYOH or be self sufficient, you're worthy of a party kick because those who otherwise would be able to heal you are too busy doing mediocre dps instead of letting the rest of their party maximise their own DPS without swapping to wands/scrolls, or LoS'ing mobs, or wasting time chugging CSW pots. That's what self sufficiency is when you're levelling. It's not Silver Flame Pots or Heal scrolls. It's Cure Serious Pots, and beyond level 7 or so they're useless.

Many seem to not realise the fact that having a healing ability on your spell list doesn't make you better or your build superior. People should not be beaten down for picking a build that isn't as self sufficient as theirs because that'd leave us with no Barbarians, Fighters or Dark Monks. It'd mean we'd see no other race than Half-Elf for the Dilly, and if you were a non-Arcane WF, well, you might as well just skip rerolling and uninstall the game. A community that fosters the BYOH mindset stifles build diversity for the sake of the least important aspect of those builds: the levelling process; because unless you're chaining TRs, most builds will be designed primarily to function at cap, not to farm Shadow Crypt and VoN 3. It also has a hugely detrimental effect on the ability of the game to hold on to new players who are understandably both unaware of the community expectations and incapable of doing much to live up to them if they did happen to know.

Why is this relevant? Because I see this elitism every time I TR. I have never seen a party disrespect their healer. If there is any group of classes within the game that is guilty of hostility towards others who do not play or build exactly as they want, it is very clearly the divines. Those capable of aiding their party but unwilling. They are the kind of players that will tell the 5 others in their party how to build and play their characters while simultaneously developing a victim complex from the expectation of the rest of the party that they heal. The rest of your party requiring you to do something they cannot isn't some great conspiracy to keep you down. It's playing smart.

There's no such thing as a smart healer who groups with 5 morons whom he out DPS's to such a point that it's better for the group for him to carry them in his backpack to the finish. Because a smart player in such a group would leave and solo the dungeon faster thanks to scaling.

If anything, healers are overvalued and given too much gratitude by parties. I get compliments for healing on my divine all the time. Praise for playing well when I know for a fact that I've done nothing special. I've performed a job adequately, but it was not difficult enough to warrant praise. I could have been replaced by any other average healer and the party would have gotten the same result. Other times on my Monk, I'll have carried the entire party. Had an EiN saved to wipe out a spawn that killed the healer and half the party; a rez clicky to get them back up. My damage and kills outshine the rest of the DPS to the point where you could add all the kills from the rest of the party together and it'd still be less than mine. I know when I play like that on my Monk, I've been a lot more instrumental to the success of this party than most of runs on my Divine, but it's never mentioned.

Now, I realise that my experience is anecdotal, but, I cannot help but consider this issue in different terms. Imagine a friend who complains that the last 8 girls he has dated have all dumped him. Instead of taking a hint, this friend thinks the source of his problem is that women are stupid. The idiocy in this hypothetical friend is the same kind of thing I see in theads and complaints like this. If every party you've been in complains that you should spend more time healing, or you're not healing well enough, it's very unlikely that you're only playing with rude people. It's far more likely that they have a point and you're just bad.


This sums it up very nicely.

I haven't played a FVS in a couple months, but when I did I got compliments on my healing ability quite a few times, to which I'd always reply "I'm just doing my job."

[Karavek]

This sums it up very nicely.

I haven't played a FVS in a couple months, but when I did I got compliments on my healing ability quite a few times, to which I'd always reply "I'm just doing my job."

shakes head sadly. This is the problem, as long as some players let themselves be used and abused and think its all in the name of team play we divine warriors will never be free.

I will heal an incapped ally who has proven his worth, I will heal up an ally who has run low on supplies in an emergency. I will repair mechs on my arty. What I will not do is aid anyone who simply takes for granted a class icon equals support back row party *****.

[Khatzhas]

shakes head sadly. This is the problem, as long as some players let themselves be used and abused and think its all in the name of team play we divine warriors will never be free.

What did he say that made you think that he was being "used and abused"?

[Mubjon]

What did he say that made you think that he was being "used and abused"?

Anytime that someone that runs a healbot believes that the cleric is the problem in a group where melees are being abusive, that is cause for concern.


Those that healbot are doing a disservice to the DDO community as a whole.

[erikbozelie]

Anytime that someone that runs a healbot believes that the cleric is the problem in a group where melees are being abusive, that is cause for concern.


Those that healbot are doing a disservice to the DDO community as a whole.

thats kindof of an overkill statement, sometimes healspots are needed.
for example epic elite raids. which are hard. i doubt you have enough sp to dot and nuke, even if your do... you probally dont want global cooldown from the offensive spells incase the tank hp takes a leap of faith towards the bottom.

for example go do epic lord of blades elite, without someone focussing on the tank ;).
for most content its not needed though.

i got a healbot, but only play him when a healbot is needed.

[Mubjon]

thats kindof of an overkill statement, sometimes healspots are needed.
for example epic elite raids. which are hard. i doubt you have enough sp to dot and nuke, even if your do... you probally dont want global cooldown from the offensive spells incase the tank hp takes a leap of faith towards the bottom.

for example go do epic lord of blades elite, without someone focussing on the tank ;).
for most content its not needed though.

i got a healbot, but only play him when a healbot is needed.

But, we are not talking about Epic Elite content here. We are talking about Heroic elite content that can be completed with smart play and no healer. We are talking about Epic Normal or Epic hard that again can be completed with smart play and no healer. There is very few Elite quests where I go "I wish I was on my divine to get us through". But, then I am one that comes prepared to do the quest with my own pots, healing amp to make them hit for a nice amount, or my own ability to use wand/scroll or cure spell.

You can build your Divine properly to be able to heal in those epic elites when needed, or raids and in the other 95% of content play the way you wish. That is not being a healbot, that is doing what is needed in a quest to get it completed.

Letting the melees or arcanes die in a quest when they have no heal amp, healers friend is smart thing to do. Otherwise you run the risk of having the whole party wipe because of 1 or 2 that failed to do their due responsibility.

[erikbozelie]

But, we are not talking about Epic Elite content here.

true for 95% of the content.

on my cleric( my main one not my healbot, this is a soloist build) completing quests on any dificulty is easy,
if i want a challange i need to bring a group ;)

[Mubjon]

true for 95% of the content.

on my cleric( my main one not my healbot, this is a soloist build) completing quests on any dificulty is easy,
if i want a challange i need to bring a group ;)

I always build my divines to be soloists :D Never know when the guild or friends are not going to be on during the time I have play.

There is something to be said about increasing the difficulty of the quest by having more in the party to help with it lol.

[Karavek]

I wee tale to help set the record straight about how I play.

One day I was running an at level elite tempest spine with a pug I joined up with. No unsurprisingly it took a while to fill as the last 2 spots initially where held for the "HEALERS" all the pure fighters and barbrs in the group said we HAD TO HAVE of it would be an automatic wipe. We also had a pure sorc who though old school in bragging about his PK ability, did prove as we got going he would one shot about everything with it faster then any melee barb could close.

I was on a for fun 1/2/7 fighter,rogue,wiz and although I had not been the main rogue, it soon became obvious I was the only viable choice for traps, so despite the slightly mocking tone I got from the WF sorc for being a fleshy drow wiz( yeah I was AM not PM cus I myself do enjoy a challenge even with an arcane) I was proving my use to the group, and being typically well armed and geared had little to fear from any foe. It made a few of the barbs annoyed I had banishers and smiters and seemed to roll 20s almost on the first swing of every elemental and golem we encountered.

My shocking handwraps of greater aberation bane made short work of rust monsters, and my beholders optic nerve and the same hand wraps let me endure the Big Eyes even as the Poor FVS the only divine caster who was willing to join us had even his seemingly bottomless mana pool strained by all the mana sponge players, everyone with at least 2 past lives to them, and all talking like they were king conan himself.

Apparently a FVS whos death ward was dispelled by the beholder is still at fault for a barbs instant death and despite being the soul divine magic support player in the group who was working his tail off trying to watch 8 suicidal barbs and fighters, and a pure rogue who had dumped int and his trap skills so much he wasnt any good for trapping elite at lvl content, people started harping on the FVS, keep in mind deaths only occurred really because the melees where getting itchy for kills as the PK sorcerer started wracking them up.

The first bit of real fun was the one beholder at the bottom of the hole. As we approached him the warriors all leap down saying we got this you casters cant do anything. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING.

Like a doorbell being held down all 8 eager warriors died in a blink from the single beholder.

The sorc chuckled and walked to the edge say it would be one and done like all the rest. Poor guy got noticed as he edged up to the hole and ding was instakilled in a real spell version of the quick and the dead.

Suddenly the entire group was nervous. All the first wave had died far enough into the pit reaching the top of the ladder let alone getting out of harms way to accept a rez was not an option.

I stepped up as the sorcer got back and was rezzed, saying I got this guys. Its not an issue. I knew my nerve was fully charged, and my fist where eager to give the beholder a go.

I drew a thundering of greater aberation bane shortsword with festivault frost upon it, and first as I drew near the edge threw a suggestion at the beholder, and roars of WHO PARTY HATTED THE BEHOLDER! filled the team chat. Apparently non had ever seen a suggestion used before.

I walked up to the beholder, stepped behind him, hasted and rogue haste boosted, as I dismissed the suggestion and tore the beholder apart, My nerve held and had one charge left by the time I was done.

Complaints that I was a hacker, etc, that it was bugged letting a suggestion effect a beholder, and many other petty QQs came from the so called warriors who had all fallen like leaves from a tree in the months before a snow. Motivated by pure envy and their own sense of inadequacy they became ever more vicious in how they spoke down to the FVS as if he was now there to not only wipe their arses but be the focus for their rage.

We made it to the end, and the final fight went down as usual with one bit of bad luck at least from my point of veiw, you see the FVS was a new player, had said so at the beginning when he had joined after being asked to help by the groups leader, one of the mouthy barbs. He had truly been doing his best, and keeping up with vets in the maze that is TS I think we can all agree is no easy thing for a first timer cleric trying to keep up with barbs running around like headless chickens.

Well the FVS didnt have FoM. Personally no big deal to me done TS many a time lacking FoM, but this sent the so called warriors into another round of verbally abusing the FVS who by his/her voice alone couldnt of been much past 10. Some hate gaming with kids, me I dont mind, they need to learn the game same as us, and tend to once learned be the superior player with their youthful twitch reflexes and sponge like minds. However only now deep in the quest did it become yet another aspect for the group to beat down on the kid for. You could tell the kid was trying hard to not let their tears choke them down as they tried to remind the group they where a first timer, and had been asked to join the group.

Well anyways lacking FoM we went and did the big boss fight, the leader I noticed neglecting to say anyting about keeping backs to the wall etc.

Fight went pretty fast, group new the puzzle and the sorce tore the big guy apart like he was the raid boss and the giant one of our silly barbs.

However just at the end the FVS was hit with the knock off. and not being in the know didnt have FF at the ready and a quick /stuck to recall back to top.

The fall landed the kid on an island surounded by fire els and incapped. Everyone else even the sorc laughed and they all recalled.

I was utterly disgusted, and I told the kid to hang on. I was no cleric, not even a self healing arcane outside of wands and pots with my rogue splashed umd.

And of those i was out having passed them to the FVS to help show him some support when his mana had been tapped and he had to start using material healing.

I didnt have much mana left either as although I doubt my evoker force barrage had been the key to our victory I never shy away from doing my part in the big fights.

I did however have the good old bracers of aid and a charge ready to go, and without hesitation leapt with FF on gliding for the incapped FVS. as I neared I yelled to the kid to be ready to react and get out of there. As I closed in I landed a few suggestions on the fire els turning them on each other as I landed the aid on the FVS. We had to move fast and got out of there asap, and then I took the time to lead the kid back to the mountain top to get his chests. being a new player I passed him that named heavy armor I had drop for me and he was so excited it was like a kid at xmas.

Its these kind of events I have had to witness first hand that tells me its far more then simply an issue with diverging play styles, its a matter of apathy. We have no sense of community and no heart and soul left for anyone outside of our circles. Turbine is the one who brought us down this path, and is the only one who can really change the way the game works to remove this kind of poor behavior by removing any aspect of the game that creates the expectation of another player doing for yours.

In the end that group of melees clearly would of all been happier had they been able to play hack frenzy with no concern for their lives, and the FVS would of been better off never being subjected to that kind of behavior from a group that begged him to join.

Imagine for a moment being a 10 year old kid, first invited by strangers who make you feel so welcome, and like you joining them is the best thing ever, then by the end the are yelling at you, insulting you telling you to un install the game, even going so far as to tell you to go kill yourself before you have the chance to grow into a bigger waste of space. Yes all that was hurled at the poor kid FVS in that run.

Its this kind of thing I feel strongly over and feel the need to see stopped from our game at all costs. Id sooner see DDO end then have one more kid be told to kill himself by same d bag who thinks a game is that important.

[firemedium_jt]

My family plays on here. It is one reason I play a Divine. It gives a player leverage. I would not hesitate to report abusive behavior and send a written statement or witness to get someone penalized for that. I report abuse and stupid bios and names if I have to without hesitation.

There are many on this game because they lack a certain maturity, and I am not talking about the kids. It is also easily done to use your phone to video abusive chat in game. A character bar turns green when they transmit. I have never had to do this yet.

I have reported stupid behavior and turbine responds quickly and appropriately it seems most of the time. Most of the time I can mitigate it myself without having to report anything before it gets out of hand. Stupid remarks or bios are dealt with easily.

Being a Divine has its privileges especially when you drop group suddenly.

[Karavek]

My family plays on here. It is one reason I play a Divine. It gives a player leverage. I would not hesitate to report abusive behavior and send a written statement or witness to get someone penalized for that. I report abuse and stupid bios and names if I have to without hesitation.

There are many on this game because they lack a certain maturity, and I am not talking about the kids. It is also easily done to use your phone to video abusive chat in game. A character bar turns green when they transmit. I have never had to do this yet.

I have reported stupid behavior and turbine responds quickly and appropriately it seems most of the time. Most of the time I can mitigate it myself without having to report anything before it gets out of hand. Stupid remarks or bios are dealt with easily.

Being a Divine has its privileges especially when you drop group suddenly.

Sadly I have been told in game by a GM that they will not accept any outside material like video capture/and recording provided by players. Nor will they act on anything spoken in voice. saying its your choice to use sound and listen to others. Just like the ignore feature in their mind, not taking into account if you dont use ears at least then many who only use talk and enver type will black list you from their guild circles.

Pretty much you have 0 protection in game agaisnt verbal abuse if it is spoken aloud. Only texting can get them penalized since chat logs are rather simple for a gm to review.

This is sadly far from a new issue, and its long been another aspect of DDO's inability to provide a community that is more friendly then venomous.

[kilagan800]

Is it worth playing a war priest if you have to take the extra time to set disclaimers?

If you like playing a healer that can fight well, why not play a paly instead? I mean, really.

If you're not into healing others but like casting dps, I highly recommend the wizard and sorc classes, or at least now the druid class....

My point is, what makes people want to play a battle cleric? What makes it so inticing when there are clearly other alternatives that work out much better for the player and the group?

[erikbozelie]

My point is, what makes people want to play a battle cleric? What makes it so inticing when there are clearly other alternatives that work out much better for the player and the group?

because well build clerics and fvs can do allot more then any alternative classes. these ones are just labeled as a bad player for not babysitting useless fighters and barbs. not saying theyre all good, ow no.... there are tons of bad ones like the ones that do not mention that they wont babysit hp bars and want to do some other role.

but as such, look at the achievements over the years.
how many clerics and fvs have solo'd vod vs solo'd it as a pally? (just using vod as an example here)
i happened to know just one, yes a single one that acomplished that and he was a 12pally,6 monk 2 roque kind of splash, not even a pure one.

there are tons that have done that as a fvs or cleric, even if you give a couple more names, i doubt its longer then that of the fvs/cleric list, its just a matter as play..

for example a 17/3 cleric/monk can obtain over 400% healing amp. making it very tough for anything to kill him with an aura ticking for 120hp/2sec with evasion, high saves, and bonus feats to hp.
a pure fvs can gets high dots even as a melee based typed build.

as with epic destinies grand us epic abilities with virtue no limitation no matter our starting class we can add that epic melee based damage boost to a fvs or cleric with no penalty.

while i do agree that soc / wiz caster based also suffices to this list of vod completions( its just an example please) because being warforged makes them self healing. do you not want something melee based sometimes? or being able to dish out other spells like mass command and the like?

so let me ask you, why not play one? ability to solo almost any quest? why bring a party to begin with?

[Archangel666]

I wee tale to help set the record straight about how I play.

Edited simply for brevity



You've disabled the rep system but I gave you a +1 anyway because I couldn't agree more.

[kilagan800]

because well build clerics and fvs can do allot more then any alternative classes. these ones are just labeled as a bad player for not babysitting useless fighters and barbs. not saying theyre all good, ow no.... there are tons of bad ones like the ones that do not mention that they wont babysit hp bars and want to do some other role.

but as such, look at the achievements over the years.
how many clerics and fvs have solo'd vod vs solo'd it as a pally? (just using vod as an example here)
i happened to know just one, yes a single one that acomplished that and he was a 12pally,6 monk 2 roque kind of splash, not even a pure one.

there are tons that have done that as a fvs or cleric, even if you give a couple more names, i doubt its longer then that of the fvs/cleric list, its just a matter as play..

for example a 17/3 cleric/monk can obtain over 400% healing amp. making it very tough for anything to kill him with an aura ticking for 120hp/2sec with evasion, high saves, and bonus feats to hp.
a pure fvs can gets high dots even as a melee based typed build.

as with epic destinies grand us epic abilities with virtue no limitation no matter our starting class we can add that epic melee based damage boost to a fvs or cleric with no penalty.

while i do agree that soc / wiz caster based also suffices to this list of vod completions( its just an example please) because being warforged makes them self healing. do you not want something melee based sometimes? or being able to dish out other spells like mass command and the like?

so let me ask you, why not play one? ability to solo almost any quest? why bring a party to begin with?


If you want to solo and you like those particular builds, then have at it. But by choosing to play a "healer class" you're pretty much telling everyone that you're a healer, and so therefore you have no problem healing a group. At least, that's how the group sees it.

Now if someone plays a gimp melee, then that's on them and not you. Simple as that. I always play a wizard pm, but I also enjoy playing a healer, so every now and then I'll dust off my cleric for a couple of quests. And sure enough there's always one guy who gets hit just once and loses 3/4 of his red bar. Or there would be one guy who cries and complains about heals throughout the whole quest. Then there are people who don't like healers at all and make a point to grief them.

About dps. In the higher levels, or even the mid levels, clerics don't have the best dps. In a way, they're a lot like wizards. (I'm guessing the splash of monk is for evasion). So in turn, you would have to rely on that aura's high healing count while you chip away at the monsters with your mace or handwraps. I suppose using really good handwraps helps, but you would have much higher dps with a paly instead of a cleric and really wouldn't have to rely on running around the map with an aura and chipping away at those monsters.

Forgive me for saying this, but it's like robbing peter to pay paul. You're basically trading dps for around the clock heals.

[SirValentine]

But by choosing to play a "healer class" you're pretty much telling everyone that you're a healer


No, sorry, but by choosing to play a particular class, I'm pretty much just telling everyone that I want to play that class. No more.

If ignorant fools think a certain class is automatically a "healer class", they need to have their misconceptions corrected, or get used to disappointment.

Some people like to play Clerics that way, and that's fine, and others don't, and that's fine too. We're all here to have fun, and it gets unpleasant when certain types try to force their incorrect preconceptions onto others.

Said before, obviously needs to be said again: there is no healer class.

[SirValentine]

About dps. In the higher levels, or even the mid levels, clerics don't have the best dps. In a way, they're a lot like wizards.
<snip>
you would have much higher dps with a paly instead of a cleric and really wouldn't have to rely on running around the map with an aura and chipping away at those monsters.



...because all the bitter divine and arcane casters have been whining about how pallies & other melees are overpowered and need to be nerfed?

Do you play the same game as me? A pally is a lot more likely to be running around trying to chip away at monsters...a Wizard or Cleric can just insta-kill them. Even at mid-levels, how does a pally's DPS stack up against Blade Barrier (or Acid Rain, or Fireball, or ...)?

[Khatzhas]

Anytime that someone that runs a healbot believes that the cleric is the problem in a group where melees are being abusive, that is cause for concern.


Those that healbot are doing a disservice to the DDO community as a whole. What has that got to do with what he said? He didn't say that he ran a healbot, he just said that he often got complimented on his heals. Unless you have actually met the character, why do you assume that it wasn't dropping the occasional heal as it carved through the the dungeon like a hot chainsaw through butter with the rest of the group mopping up in its wake.

The player seems to have fun playing their divine, so if anyone is being "used" it might be the rest of the group for providing a platform for him to do so.
I likewise am not sure how it is possible to regard being complimented as being "abused".

Now, if someone does play a healbot, and enjoys doing so, I really do not see what gives you the right to try to bully or browbeat them into changing their playstyle.

[phalaeo]

Don't have time to be tied to a chair.... too busy out soloing.

[Mubjon]

What has that got to do with what he said? He didn't say that he ran a healbot, he just said that he often got complimented on his heals. Unless you have actually met the character, why do you assume that it wasn't dropping the occasional heal as it carved through the the dungeon like a hot chainsaw through butter with the rest of the group mopping up in its wake.

The player seems to have fun playing their divine, so if anyone is being "used" it might be the rest of the group for providing a platform for him to do so.
I likewise am not sure how it is possible to regard being complimented as being "abused".

Now, if someone does play a healbot, and enjoys doing so, I really do not see what gives you the right to try to bully or browbeat them into changing their playstyle.


Because in the 3+ years I have been playing divines I never see compliments unless I am just healing and doing nothing else in a pug. I see a lot of complaints if I lead the kill count, or if someone does not get a cure/heal tossed their way when they are at 75% and I would be over healing them to begin with wasting my precious SP. I see complaints from the guy that decided that he was superman runs off and confront the first group while i am still buffing the party and dies.

I do not care if someone wants to be a healbot, just do not try to tell me that is the way the class should be played. As many have done over the course of that time.

And it is abusive if you are in a group where you are expected to be the extended life of another person. You might not think that slavery is abusive, but it really truly is.

The main question that someone running a divine has to ask them self is why are they grouping in the first place? From level 1 to 25 they can solo any content fairly easy.

[Mubjon]

Don't have time to be tied to a chair.... too busy out soloing.

There is a reason that people wait an hour or more for a divine to show up in pugs. And it is not because there are not that many of them online at the time.

[Karavek]

There is a reason that people wait an hour or more for a divine to show up in pugs. And it is not because there are not that many of them online at the time.

TRUTH mubi, Pure TRUTH

[Khatzhas]

I do not care if someone wants to be a healbot,

Those that healbot are doing a disservice to the DDO community as a whole.



And it is abusive if you are in a group where you are expected to be the extended life of another person. Not necessarily. If you have joined a group in the healer role then you have chosen to accept a responsibility. A fighter joining the group in a tanking role, an artificer in a trapper role, a sorceror in a DPS role or a wizard in a CC role likewise choose to accept do perform those functions to their ability. Stupidity from other members aside, they are expected to perform the role they have signed up for.

Of course if they have not signed up to a party in any specific role, then they are not expected to do or be anything. Technically not even to move from the zone in and help kill stuff, although that is usually assumed.


You might not think that slavery is abusive, but it really truly is. I think that you'll have to clarify that statement a little.


The main question that someone running a divine has to ask them self is why are they grouping in the first place? From level 1 to 25 they can solo any content fairly easy. The main question that someone running solo has to ask themselves is "Why are they playing an MMO in the first place?"

Picking a class with the power to fairly easily solo raids and Epic Elite, whether deliberately or accidently, does not necessarily mean that the player doesn't like running with a group sometimes.

[Mubjon]

Not necessarily. If you have joined a group in the healer role then you have chosen to accept a responsibility. A fighter joining the group in a tanking role, an artificer in a trapper role, a sorceror in a DPS role or a wizard in a CC role likewise choose to accept do perform those functions to their ability. Stupidity from other members aside, they are expected to perform the role they have signed up for.

Of course if they have not signed up to a party in any specific role, then they are not expected to do or be anything. Technically not even to move from the zone in and help kill stuff, although that is usually assumed.

Not entirely true, I avoid any pugs that specifically ask for a healer. There are no roles in DDO there are classes and as a divine I might be able to heal, but I can also bring dps, I can cc and I can tank. It is a disservice to the community to only focus on the healing capabilities of the Divine class.

If you are looking for roles then go play something else.


I think that you'll have to clarify that statement a little.

No clarification needed, not my problem if you do not understand the problems with why pugs are waiting around for clerics and FvS. It has nothing to do with being able to solo and has everything to do with people believing they have the entitlement to tell someone else how they should be playing.


The main question that someone running solo has to ask themselves is "Why are they playing an MMO in the first place?"

Because they are looking for like minded people, not masters.


Picking a class with the power to fairly easily solo raids and Epic Elite, whether deliberately or accidently, does not necessarily mean that the player doesn't like running with a group sometimes.


Never said that, what I said is that the people in this game should not think that the sole reason for a divine is to heal them. My blue bar is not an extension of their health bar.

[Khatzhas]

Not entirely true, I avoid any pugs that specifically ask for a healer. There are no roles in DDO there are classes and as a divine I might be able to heal, but I can also bring dps, I can cc and I can tank. It is a disservice to the community to only focus on the healing capabilities of the Divine class. That was rather my point. It is not abusive to be expected to carry out a role you have specifically taken on.
If you don't like the role (which you don't), don't join groups as that role (which you don't). A very sensible attitude.
But I have joined groups as a healer, and when I did, I understood that I was expected to heal. Not to the exclusion of anything else, not to an unreasonable extent. But still to heal. I needed the group, and they needed me. Who was being abused?


No clarification needed, not my problem if you do not understand the problems with why pugs are waiting around for clerics and FvS. My request for clarification was based on the fact that the quoted statement could be taken to mean two different things, with no indication of which you meant.
I am reasonable certain that I understand at least three of the problems leading to why PuGs are waiting around for Clerics and FvS.


Never said that, what I said is that the people in this game should not think that the sole reason for a divine is to heal them. My blue bar is not an extension of their health bar. The statement that I quoted was the one that I was responding to. Nothing about people's attitude to divines. Just about the question of why someone would join a group when they didn't have to. Hence my response of "Because they want to".

[Relicor_Typhoidmary]

Again, everyone should make a cleric and PUG it out from level 1, maybe you would understand. If you cannot heal yourself between fights - your issue not mine.

I get the frustration, hell, I took an old cleric's name from when our server's combined and they stopped playing and had fun with the rep (I dance more than they did)

I refuse to buy wands, scrolls or anything because I am self-sufficient on my cleric (do y'all realize how expensive they are?). When my blue bar is gone, I am on pots like the rest of y'all, I save SP's for an implosion when swarmed - sometimes people forget about rear attacks when I am taking a support role. If you cannot heal yourself and I have the sparkles going - get in close and don't run too far - on you, not me. Shrines res just fine, if you are a problem I will take you back to the shrine to res if you need to be res'd more than a couple of times for dumb things. Even on my barb with a high jump I know when to get out of a situation and pop a shield and start chugging pots.

All my other toons carry a minimum of 100 CSW pots and 50 of the other "remove whatever" pots - I see no excuses.

This is such a non-issue.

[Mubjon]

That was rather my point. It is not abusive to be expected to carry out a role you have specifically taken on.
If you don't like the role (which you don't), don't join groups as that role (which you don't). A very sensible attitude.
But I have joined groups as a healer, and when I did, I understood that I was expected to heal. Not to the exclusion of anything else, not to an unreasonable extent. But still to heal. I needed the group, and they needed me. Who was being abused?

And those groups that advertise for a healer are not really the problem to me. It is the ones that advertise BYOH on a barb and when I join with my cleric decide that because I am there that I will take care of them.

Granted I drop the group at first sign of an abusive melee, but that does not change the fact it happens. Which is the reason for this thread.

As long as no one says a word to me about going into melee (I normally have at least 70%+ miss chance on AC and at least 15% passive damage reduction), or casting comet falls and blade barriers/implosions. Then, I have no problem tossing cures (mostly bursts) to those that need it no matter what group I am in. I play a divine and I do so because it is not boring to have so much to do in a battle. I do not think it is too much to ask someone to look after themselves and look for the divine if they are in trouble, chances are the divine sees their health bar and either they are out of sight, too far away or the divine is tripped up and cannot get to them right then. Or the divine has limited SP, no sp regeneration and no means to buy pots so they are using auras and bursts to help mitigate damage.


My request for clarification was based on the fact that the quoted statement could be taken to mean two different things, with no indication of which you meant.
I am reasonable certain that I understand at least three of the problems leading to why PuGs are waiting around for Clerics and FvS.

I thought I was clear on what I meant. I view it as slavery to tell someone how they should act, behave, and what to do against their will.

If the Divine does not want to heal you, you do not have the right to go and be verbally abusive or type out abuses in party chat. There might be a reason they are not healing you, chances are it is because you complained about something already and they just decided to ignore you.


The statement that I quoted was the one that I was responding to. Nothing about people's attitude to divines. Just about the question of why someone would join a group when they didn't have to. Hence my response of "Because they want to".

But, there are many different groups and this thread was about those groups that are the worst of the worst. Yes they are a minority in the game, but they do exist and it is an attitude that comes from other games where there are clear cut roles for every class/person.

[Karavek]

Again, everyone should make a cleric and PUG it out from level 1, maybe you would understand. If you cannot heal yourself between fights - your issue not mine.

I get the frustration, hell, I took an old cleric's name from when our server's combined and they stopped playing and had fun with the rep (I dance more than they did)

I refuse to buy wands, scrolls or anything because I am self-sufficient on my cleric (do y'all realize how expensive they are?). When my blue bar is gone, I am on pots like the rest of y'all, I save SP's for an implosion when swarmed - sometimes people forget about rear attacks when I am taking a support role. If you cannot heal yourself and I have the sparkles going - get in close and don't run too far - on you, not me. Shrines res just fine, if you are a problem I will take you back to the shrine to res if you need to be res'd more than a couple of times for dumb things. Even on my barb with a high jump I know when to get out of a situation and pop a shield and start chugging pots.

All my other toons carry a minimum of 100 CSW pots and 50 of the other "remove whatever" pots - I see no excuses.

This is such a non-issue.

Indeed. I shudder to think what kind of player Id of been without my PnP experience and understanding of what a divine class is capable of. A life in bondage is no life worth living.

[Khatzhas]

And those groups that advertise for a healer are not really the problem to me. It is the ones that advertise BYOH on a barb and when I join with my cleric decide that because I am there that I will take care of them. I'd regard that the issue in that situation is "that particular player is either running off an assumption or being a jerk". What was the response when you mentioned that you were joining as a BYOH?

I drop when it becomes evident there is an abusive anything. I don't care whether its a melee, arcane or divine. I've even swapped to a character who didn't need the quest just so a group did not have to run with an abusive FvS.


I thought I was clear on what I meant. I view it as slavery to tell someone how they should act, behave, and what to do against their will. Really? I view it as "Being a jerk." There is no official institutionalised structure that forces anyone to play this game in a specific way, or even to play this game at all. I'm assuming that you are OK with the official Terms of Use etc that tell people how they shouldn't act? That rolls in to my point about joining groups as a healer: you are voluntarily entering into a responsibility, not having it forced upon you.


But, there are many different groups and this thread was about those groups that are the worst of the worst. Yes they are a minority in the game, but they do exist and it is an attitude that comes from other games where there are clear cut roles for every class/person. That is why I used the quote to indicate that I responding to a specific question, not to the entirety of the thread as a whole.

[Aashrym]

Indeed. I shudder to think what kind of player Id of been without my PnP experience and understanding of what a divine class is capable of. A life in bondage is no life worth living.

This isn't a PnP thread tho. Hi, welcome to DDO, the online MMO based on PnP and modified to better suit the MMO environment. ;)

Also, like I mentioned in other threads, expecting a class with built in capabilities to use those abilities isn't bondage. It's not bondage any more than expecting your doctor to prescribe medication, a paramedic to bandage wounds, or a McDonalds employee to serve fries.

Joining a team with a skill set and being expected to use that skill set is part of the job. Bondage has nothing to do with utilizing a skill set as part of a team.

[Karavek]

This isn't a PnP thread tho. Hi, welcome to DDO, the online MMO based on PnP and modified to better suit the MMO environment. ;)

Also, like I mentioned in other threads, expecting a class with built in capabilities to use those abilities isn't bondage. It's not bondage any more than expecting your doctor to prescribe medication, a paramedic to bandage wounds, or a McDonalds employee to serve fries.

Joining a team with a skill set and being expected to use that skill set is part of the job. Bondage has nothing to do with utilizing a skill set as part of a team.

As I have explained time and time again you are only actually playing DDO when in combat. healing is like anything else filler activity. No different then spending time at the bank or crafting.

In DDO the only reason to pick it over another MMO is its fast paced dynamic combat system each and every person in the group needs to be involved in 90% of their time in an Instance.

Anything else equals no reason to pick DDO over any other MMO. that is the baseline I argue from, hence anyone expecting another player to waste their time on a game not actually playing it, to support those who are, are the very definition of selfish to me and many other players who have actually played a divine character.

So with that understood, how do you justify anyone wasting their time healing others?There is no middle ground, with the exception of EE raids no content any longer justifies a devoted healer, those minority of classes who seem to be played by a majority of selfish and sadly often dead weight players who add more challenge then aid to the content demand healers join them, and often badgers those who do not go Anon.

Its time for changes. As I have posted in numerous threads, that with all the numerical increases we saw to things like our HP, healing, dps, and mob hp and dps, why where some effects left so weak as to be often seen as trash?

Items like Weapons of vampiric regen, rings of trollish regen, and high lvl prestige class crafted potions of heal in master work potion belts that allowed one potion to be drawn per round as a free action, all made being non dependent on anyone wasting their limited spells per day on other then emergencies.

Trying to say PnP isnt relevant frankly has meant you have given up all right to be respected in a discussion, PnP is the ideal standard that this game must always strive to live up to or lose any reason to have D&D fanbase loyalty. I and all know it cant ever be PnP but that never ever means it shouldnt keep trying to live up to that standard.

[Aashrym]

As I have explained time and time again you are only actually playing DDO when in combat. healing is like anything else filler activity. No different then spending time at the bank or crafting.

In DDO the only reason to pick it over another MMO is its fast paced dynamic combat system each and every person in the group needs to be involved in 90% of their time in an Instance.

Anything else equals no reason to pick DDO over any other MMO. that is the baseline I argue from, hence anyone expecting another player to waste their time on a game not actually playing it, to support those who are, are the very definition of selfish to me and many other players who have actually played a divine character.

So with that understood, how do you justify anyone wasting their time healing others?There is no middle ground, with the exception of EE raids no content any longer justifies a devoted healer, those minority of classes who seem to be played by a majority of selfish and sadly often dead weight players who add more challenge then aid to the content demand healers join them, and often badgers those who do not go Anon.

Its time for changes. As I have posted in numerous threads, that with all the numerical increases we saw to things like our HP, healing, dps, and mob hp and dps, why where some effects left so weak as to be often seen as trash?

Items like Weapons of vampiric regen, rings of trollish regen, and high lvl prestige class crafted potions of heal in master work potion belts that allowed one potion to be drawn per round as a free action, all made being non dependent on anyone wasting their limited spells per day on other then emergencies.

Trying to say PnP isnt relevant frankly has meant you have given up all right to be respected in a discussion, PnP is the ideal standard that this game must always strive to live up to or lose any reason to have D&D fanbase loyalty. I and all know it cant ever be PnP but that never ever means it shouldnt keep trying to live up to that standard.

Oh, I've seen what you've posted but your arguments lack logical substance, carry a personal bias, appear arrogant coming from the standpoint of caster superiority that you think should exist, continue to talk about PnP like that's what we're player when we're not, and continue to compare healing to various social injustices instead of a valuable contribution to the team.

There simply isn't anything wrong with using the full toolbox. If I had a group of contractors working on my house I would expect the carpenter to use his tape measure at some point. That's still not an unreasonable expectation or bondage. Healing is still playing the game whether you want it to be or not.

[Habreno]

This isn't a PnP thread tho. Hi, welcome to DDO, the online MMO based on PnP and modified to better suit the MMO environment. ;)

Also, like I mentioned in other threads, expecting a class with built in capabilities to use those abilities isn't bondage. It's not bondage any more than expecting your doctor to prescribe medication, a paramedic to bandage wounds, or a McDonalds employee to serve fries.

Joining a team with a skill set and being expected to use that skill set is part of the job. Bondage has nothing to do with utilizing a skill set as part of a team.


Have to disagree with you here on a principle: When you join BYOH, you're being, pretty much explicitly, that you don't need your capabilities for others.

Anyone in that group expecting you to use your capabilities is expecting more than you were asked. That, in my eyes, would be grounds for dismissal from group.

Being lashed at for not using my capabilities on others in a BYOH group is an immediate squelch and often report for harassment since it's well beyond the scope of both tolerance in how I am treated and beyond my joining of the group. If it's not a report I do, then they often eat their own words since they don't understand what BYOH means.

[Aashrym]

Have to disagree with you here on a principle: When you join BYOH, you're being, pretty much explicitly, that you don't need your capabilities for others.

Anyone in that group expecting you to use your capabilities is expecting more than you were asked. That, in my eyes, would be grounds for dismissal from group.

Being lashed at for not using my capabilities on others in a BYOH group is an immediate squelch and often report for harassment since it's well beyond the scope of both tolerance in how I am treated and beyond my joining of the group. If it's not a report I do, then they often eat their own words since they don't understand what BYOH means.

I would agree with setting expectations up front. That doesn't mean being asked for a heal is from a class clearly designed with strong healing capabilities is the equivalent of bondage.

[Khatzhas]

Have to disagree with you here on a principle: When you join BYOH, you're being, pretty much explicitly, that you don't need your capabilities for others.

Anyone in that group expecting you to use your capabilities is expecting more than you were asked. That, in my eyes, would be grounds for dismissal from group.

Being lashed at for not using my capabilities on others in a BYOH group is an immediate squelch and often report for harassment since it's well beyond the scope of both tolerance in how I am treated and beyond my joining of the group. If it's not a report I do, then they often eat their own words since they don't understand what BYOH means. That is probably why Asshrym posted that here, rather in a in one of the "BYOH" threads.
If the group is BYOH, then yes, expectations are different. Thankfully BYOH groups for most places are still less common than normal groups currently.
Any player being abusive to any other is grounds for dismissal or dropping group, if not official harassment channels.

[Khatzhas]

As I have explained time and time again you are only actually playing DDO when in combat. healing is like anything else filler activity. No different then spending time at the bank or crafting. Be fair. You haven't done that in this or similar threads, so can't blame someone for not knowing your opinion of that.
My opinion however is markedly different from yours. Out of combat is when the non-healers should be putting on the UMD gear to wand, start chugging potions, or snuggle up to the cleric to soak up some golden haze.
Its in combat when damage is actually being taken that real healing is important.
I'd also differ in that DDO is not just combat. While it is far more combat-centric than PnP for example, there is still roleplaying, conversations, exploration and such that is by no means "filler".


Anything else equals no reason to pick DDO over any other MMO. that is the baseline I argue from, hence anyone expecting another player to waste their time on a game not actually playing it, to support those who are, are the very definition of selfish to me and many other players who have actually played a divine character.
Unfortunately, the baseline that you use is rather subjective, and so your line of reasoning is leading you to label others as selfish simply because they happen to hold a different opinion to yours.


So with that understood, how do you justify anyone wasting their time healing others?There is no middle ground, with the exception of EE raids no content any longer justifies a devoted healer, those minority of classes who seem to be played by a majority of selfish and sadly often dead weight players who add more challenge then aid to the content demand healers join them, and often badgers those who do not go Anon.
There is a middle ground for those with a different understanding. It lies between "devoted healer" and "no healer".
While most of the content might not need a devoted healer, in many cases in actual play, some level of effective healing will be required.
People who know how to play divines are quite capable of being a healer without utterly devoting themselves to it, leaving them able to do other stuff on top of keeping a group alive.
I'd also venture to say that the minority of selfish and dead weight players do not seem to be confined to any particular class. I've met examples in most of the classes. (Except Bards and Druids as far as I recall, but its probably only a matter of time.)



Trying to say PnP isnt relevant frankly has meant you have given up all right to be respected in a discussion, OK. Hooold on there.
This game is based upon PnP. It has a D&D IP. That doesn't mean that everyone playing it has played D&D, or that they need to.
Anyone who plays this game. The game that we are currently discussing has a right to comment on it. As long as their posts are cogent and reasoned, they have a right to be respected. Not necessarily agreed with, but respected.



PnP is the ideal standard that this game must always strive to live up to or lose any reason to have D&D fanbase loyalty. I and all know it cant ever be PnP but that never ever means it shouldnt keep trying to live up to that standard. PnP had its own flaws and problems, and deliberately introducing those flaws into a separate game, in a different platform and genre, makes that game worse.
Changes were made to make DDO work as an MMO. Further changes can be made to make it work better.

[Furare]

I thought I was clear on what I meant. I view it as slavery to tell someone how they should act, behave, and what to do against their will.

Slight clarification: It's only slavery if you are not permitted to say "no".

[Mubjon]

Slight clarification: It's only slavery if you are not permitted to say "no".

Wrong slavery can also mean working in harsh conditions for low pay.

Having someone demand healing for free would apply here, especially in a BYOH group. Or did you miss that is what this topic is about?

[Mubjon]

I'd regard that the issue in that situation is "that particular player is either running off an assumption or being a jerk". What was the response when you mentioned that you were joining as a BYOH?

The responses vary of course. To nothing being said, to "OK Guys we got a cleric so healing is covered". IN the one where they annouce, I just drop group right away. In the other it normally does not rear its head until healing is needed because they decided that I would take care of them.


I drop when it becomes evident there is an abusive anything. I don't care whether its a melee, arcane or divine. I've even swapped to a character who didn't need the quest just so a group did not have to run with an abusive FvS.

I do not swap characters, let them see me doing the same quest with a different group.


Really? I view it as "Being a jerk." There is no official institutionalised structure that forces anyone to play this game in a specific way, or even to play this game at all. I'm assuming that you are OK with the official Terms of Use etc that tell people how they shouldn't act? That rolls in to my point about joining groups as a healer: you are voluntarily entering into a responsibility, not having it forced upon you.

None of that has anything to do with BYOH groups. Or being expected and have it demanded that you cover ever boo-boo that someone gets in a quest.


That is why I used the quote to indicate that I responding to a specific question, not to the entirety of the thread as a whole.

It does no good to focus on one detail in a thread where something is being discussed. This thread is about players abusing Clerics and FvS to be an glorified slave. If you wish for someone to follow you around and take care of every scrap and boo-boo then grab a hire or at the very least offer up some resources to the person you are demanding services from.

I never demand a rogue to get a trap, I never demand for an arcane to buff me. I do not expect to be hounded relentlessly for healing or status removals when there are pots for that and can be taken care of in 99% of most content in this game.

If a divine could not kill mobs or bosses in this game and relied on others to do the killing for them that would be different. Luckily it is not one of those games where players are only able to do one thing.

[Aashrym]

Wrong slavery can also mean working in harsh conditions for low pay.

Having someone demand healing for free would apply here, especially in a BYOH group. Or did you miss that is what this topic is about?

Well, no, because no one forces a cleric, favored soul, bard, druid, paladin, or anyone else to heal. That's impossible in an online game. Healing classes join groups to participate in the joint success of the team by applying the abilities inherent to those classes.

It's not possible to make some one heal and it's very possible to squelch someone, say no and why, or simply drop group if someone is being an @$$hat.

The context of low pay for harsh conditions carries context because those individuals have no other options (they work or they starve) and is actually more exploitation of the poor than the traditional concept of slavery. That's not possible here because every player can make the choice to leave a group where members of the group are hostile, belligerent, etc. To qualify under the concept of slavery one party is required to have the ability to subjugate the other party some how.

The story in the OP refers to tying a cleric to a chair. How exactly does one accomplish that in a virtual environment? Applying a skill set is team work. Forcing someone to apply a skill set follows the concept but is something not even remotely possible.

I heal other players, even in byoh groups, because that contributes to our success as a team. Not because anyone can force me to do it. ;)

[Khatzhas]

Wrong slavery can also mean working in harsh conditions for low pay. No, I think that would be "exploitation". Slavery requires that there be no available alternative.


Having someone demand healing for free would apply here, especially in a BYOH group. Or did you miss that is what this topic is about?
No, I don't think it would. There is no way of forcing the healer to comply to give healing for free, that they have no alternative to. Generally its the healers who are in the position of power, and able to dictate to the rest of the group. Most simply do not abuse that power.
There are several threads discussing BYOH on the boards. This one is about the perception of poor treatment of divine classes by melee classes, and I think that it has been pointed out a while back that use of granted class abilities for the group's success is the default assumption, and while it is possible to opt out of that, (such as in a BYOH situation), it is courtesy to state such.


The responses vary of course. To nothing being said, to "OK Guys we got a cleric so healing is covered". IN the one where they annouce, I just drop group right away. In the other it normally does not rear its head until healing is needed because they decided that I would take care of them. Why not simply point out "I joined you because you were offering a "BYOH" group. If you're changing the group to non-BYOH I think I'll pass thanks."


I do not swap characters, let them see me doing the same quest with a different group. The group needed a healer and the FvS was using that as leverage to get them to accept his abuse. Sorrowdusk groups are fairly rare, so some felt forced into putting up with him if it was the only way to get it done. The FvS managed to tick me off to the extent that I was willing to swap to a cleric just so the rest of the group could run it without him.


It does no good to focus on one detail in a thread where something is being discussed. This thread is about players abusing Clerics and FvS to be an glorified slave. If you wish for someone to follow you around and take care of every scrap and boo-boo then grab a hire or at the very least offer up some resources to the person you are demanding services from. You asked a question: I answered it. Your question was about a specific detail relevant to the topic, so the answer was as well.

[hermespan]

Original post:
Complain all you want, but a cleric that refuse to heal a fighter/barb is a bad cleric.

Depends on the fighter/barb.

I'll say it 3 times so everyone gets it:
healing amp
healing amp
healing amp

If you don't have room for it in your build, I don't have room in my mana pool to heal you. The need to max healing amp goes up linearly with the number of hitpoints you have.

Mkay?

If you eat 1/4 of my mana pool to heal up half your hitpoints you fit into this category.

Not that it matters, the only divine type I play in pugs is a druid and that one is a melee druid. I don't think people realize they can heal yet. Or maybe its because I only join byoh groups.

Whatever it is, I don't get harassed much. I can solo hard quests 2 levels above me so I really only need a party for elites. If I get harassed by my group I just drop group and solo it. If there are players I like in the group I'm firing, I'll invite them on the side.

I'm only in the party for human interaction in the first place. If it's negative, I have no reason to stick around :rolleyes:

When I am fighting and I notice someone's HP going down I'll throw them a heal. I don't exactly pay much attention tho. I usually attack what everyone else is attacking and drop mass regens, mostly for myself and pet, but other players frequently benefit from it.

If you are 80 feet away by yourself trying to up your kill count, chances are you will die if you are depending on my heals. I don't chase people. That goes for rezzing too. If I'm rezzing you and you run out of range or move around a corner, you get one shot. If the spell fails because of you your stone is going in my pocket.

I don't really care what you say about it. Just to prove it I'll squelch you. You are there to make my quest go a little faster. If you aren't doing that, you can go for a ride in my pocket :) I respond to people being a jerk by being twice the jerk that they could ever imagine.

Most divines and casters are there because they like people since they can solo just about everything. If you are unlikable they won't stick around long ;)

I think some melee's have misjudged their place in the scheme of things. You are there for the casters/divines, not the other way around. Check your attitude and melee superiority complex at the quest entrance. If you are so great and worthy of one or more characters devoting their playtime to keeping you alive, why do you need a group in the first place? That's a tough one to answer isn't it?

Sticking with the group so you can take advantage of mass heals, pumping your healing amp as high as possible and squeezing evasion into your build are all ways that you can make yourself less of a liability. I'm not saying do all of this. I'll settle for 2 out of 3 and still be willing to heal you :D

[Inouk]

You think the whole sentence provides a context that somehow makes your bias acceptable?



Nope, sorry, doesn't help at all. It is still clearly evident of a bias you have against anyone who isn't self-sufficient. You by your own words, consider them gimps. This coming from the same person who claims to hate it when others tell him what to do, decides that he can tell melee how to build their characters instead. If these needy, dictating melee really did exist, all you've done is prove that you're just like them. Just as willing to dictate their builds and playstyle as they are to you.

If I'm a "tabloid hack", then I shudder to think what you are, with your ridiculously melodramatic over interpreted victim complex put to bad prose and absurd similarities drawn between your imagined slights and the Civil Rights movement. Get a grip.



No, the game I play is a team-based MMO with multiple classes who offer different abilities that synergise well with each other. You seem to be playing a different type of game that more resembles a single player experience, but for some reason still sticks you with other people also playing a single player game. Sounds strange really. I know which I think sounds more fun, but I'll accept that's subjective. What's not subjective though is which has more resemblance to the PnP roots you keep referencing. I'll give you a hint. PnP isn't a single player game.

I'll admit I couldn't get past page 2 of this thread before commenting.

It seems to me like the OP and those supporting him are not team players, or are bad team players. Now, I don't take that as a bad thing until they ***** about people who expect them to at least attempt to fulfill the role they are best suited to in a group. I personally am guild-mates and friends with several healers who admit up front "I am not a healer" or "I suck at healing", and some of those have built their characters to be good soloers and killers, and I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT! There are cleric/FVS on my server with names like "Notahealer" to make this point clear, and that's fine, let the parties you want to group with know that you aren't built for healing or it's not your preferred role. But even those healers, in my experience, will do their best to be a healer when needed and won't get all upset at people in their group for being less self sufficient, so long as they aren't morons in other ways (yes, I've played with the barb that speed boosts to the next fight without waiting for a heal, I know they're out there).

What gets to me here is the righteous indignation in response to being expected to at least make an attempt at healing if you play a class that can heal (I've played with plenty of bards that are happy to make that attempt in the absence of a cleric or FvS, and have had my bacon saved by a good ranger more than once). A good player is a good team player, always worried about helping his teammates (regardless of class) and achieving a goal. To me, the indignant ones here sound like elitist, self-centered soloers who only want a group to help them zerg and view anyone without that mentality with disdain. Probably the same types who constantly watch the kill count and won't take people without certain gear in their groups. IMO Potta has the right of it in every one of his posts.

Just my 2 pennies.

[Mubjon]

I'll admit I couldn't get past page 2 of this thread before commenting.

It seems to me like the OP and those supporting him are not team players, or are bad team players. Now, I don't take that as a bad thing until they ***** about people who expect them to at least attempt to fulfill the role they are best suited to in a group. I personally am guild-mates and friends with several healers who admit up front "I am not a healer" or "I suck at healing", and some of those have built their characters to be good soloers and killers, and I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT! There are cleric/FVS on my server with names like "Notahealer" to make this point clear, and that's fine, let the parties you want to group with know that you aren't built for healing or it's not your preferred role. But even those healers, in my experience, will do their best to be a healer when needed and won't get all upset at people in their group for being less self sufficient, so long as they aren't morons in other ways (yes, I've played with the barb that speed boosts to the next fight without waiting for a heal, I know they're out there).

What gets to me here is the righteous indignation in response to being expected to at least make an attempt at healing if you play a class that can heal (I've played with plenty of bards that are happy to make that attempt in the absence of a cleric or FvS, and have had my bacon saved by a good ranger more than once). A good player is a good team player, always worried about helping his teammates (regardless of class) and achieving a goal. To me, the indignant ones here sound like elitist, self-centered soloers who only want a group to help them zerg and view anyone without that mentality with disdain. Probably the same types who constantly watch the kill count and won't take people without certain gear in their groups. IMO Potta has the right of it in every one of his posts.

Just my 2 pennies.

It is only correct if we are playing a game where there are actual roles, as we do not none of this is correct.

All classes can be built with self-healing in mind. Treat others with the same respect you expect and you would probably not see so many decide it is better to let you die than keep you up.

[Mubjon]

Depends on the fighter/barb.

I'll say it 3 times so everyone gets it:
healing amp
healing amp
healing amp

If you don't have room for it in your build, I don't have room in my mana pool to heal you. The need to max healing amp goes up linearly with the number of hitpoints you have.

Mkay?

If you eat 1/4 of my mana pool to heal up half your hitpoints you fit into this category.

Not that it matters, the only divine type I play in pugs is a druid and that one is a melee druid. I don't think people realize they can heal yet. Or maybe its because I only join byoh groups.

Whatever it is, I don't get harassed much. I can solo hard quests 2 levels above me so I really only need a party for elites. If I get harassed by my group I just drop group and solo it. If there are players I like in the group I'm firing, I'll invite them on the side.

I'm only in the party for human interaction in the first place. If it's negative, I have no reason to stick around :rolleyes:

When I am fighting and I notice someone's HP going down I'll throw them a heal. I don't exactly pay much attention tho. I usually attack what everyone else is attacking and drop mass regens, mostly for myself and pet, but other players frequently benefit from it.

If you are 80 feet away by yourself trying to up your kill count, chances are you will die if you are depending on my heals. I don't chase people. That goes for rezzing too. If I'm rezzing you and you run out of range or move around a corner, you get one shot. If the spell fails because of you your stone is going in my pocket.

I don't really care what you say about it. Just to prove it I'll squelch you. You are there to make my quest go a little faster. If you aren't doing that, you can go for a ride in my pocket :) I respond to people being a jerk by being twice the jerk that they could ever imagine.

Most divines and casters are there because they like people since they can solo just about everything. If you are unlikable they won't stick around long ;)

I think some melee's have misjudged their place in the scheme of things. You are there for the casters/divines, not the other way around. Check your attitude and melee superiority complex at the quest entrance. If you are so great and worthy of one or more characters devoting their playtime to keeping you alive, why do you need a group in the first place? That's a tough one to answer isn't it?

Sticking with the group so you can take advantage of mass heals, pumping your healing amp as high as possible and squeezing evasion into your build are all ways that you can make yourself less of a liability. I'm not saying do all of this. I'll settle for 2 out of 3 and still be willing to heal you :D


Oh come on now you do not really expect someone that is relying on outside help to stay up to be responsible enough to get proper gear!

That is unheard of!

[Khatzhas]

If you don't have room for it in your build, I don't have room in my mana pool to heal you. The need to max healing amp goes up linearly with the number of hitpoints you have.

Mkay?

Sticking with the group so you can take advantage of mass heals, pumping your healing amp as high as possible and squeezing evasion into your build are all ways that you can make yourself less of a liability. I'm not saying do all of this. I'll settle for 2 out of 3 and still be willing to heal you :D Interesting.
What level of healing amp would you regard as an acceptable minimum at mid level? Would you simply refuse to heal an elven fighter for example, no matter how well played, because they could have been a Human/Helf or Rogue/Monk instead?


Oh come on now you do not really expect someone that is relying on outside help to stay up to be responsible enough to get proper gear!

That is unheard of! What can I say: its a fantasy game with fantasy races. Some people just want to play them.

[Habreno]

Interesting.
What level of healing amp would you regard as an acceptable minimum at mid level? Would you simply refuse to heal an elven fighter for example, no matter how well played, because they could have been a Human/Helf or Rogue/Monk instead?

What can I say: its a fantasy game with fantasy races. Some people just want to play them.

My guess is if he's talking about Mass Heals and effective soloing on a divine not caring who else is in group, I'm going to guess ML 17+. There, yes, you should be able to find at least one piece of healing amp gear. Get the ship buff if you need it. There's at minimum 1.21x on incoming heals. If you pump your amp really well, say, HElf with Monk Dilletante, and have some raid gear, you could be seeing 1.2 monk, 1.2 human, 1.2 Levik's, 1.1 ship, 1.1 some other source, probably lootgen. And that all multiplies to get 2.09x. At level 17.


Not saying that the 1.21x is bad. But the 2.09x requires a great deal more effort. I'd be able to heal both in a group, provided that they weren't playing like an idiot.

[Inouk]

It is only correct if we are playing a game where there are actual roles, as we do not none of this is correct.

All classes can be built with self-healing in mind. Treat others with the same respect you expect and you would probably not see so many decide it is better to let you die than keep you up.

^ This is ignorance wrapped in arrogance. Yes, there are roles, although those roles are mutable and aren't always mapped by class. Crowd control is a role, if you're running a raid and think you need crowd control, it's important to get a character that can do so. DPS is a role, healing is a role, tanking is a role. We could get more granular, like mana-less DPS is a role. Are all these roles required all the time? No. Are some classes able to fulfill multiple roles? Yes. Are most roles able to be filled by multiple classes? Certainly.

Furthermore, even in groups where the healer(s) has said things like "If I decide any of you aren't worth healing I'll leave you behind" I haven't had a healer decide I wasn't worth healing, and yes, I treat all players with respect (I've never told a healer how to play their character or expected them to do nothing but heal). And in fact I'm planning to TR my fighter because I don't think he's a very good build (despite having been complimented plenty) for end game and isn't very self-reliant.

That all said, there is no excuse for expecting everyone to be totally self-reliant or fit some mold you want them to fit so that you can solo along side them and never be expected to heal, that's asinine. As a cleric or FVS you are better suited to the role of healing than any other class. If that isn't necessary because you have other healers in party or people generally don't need it, great, but that certainly is a "role" that you certainly are "suited to it". Do you expect the rogue never to open a lock or disable a trap even though he's capable of it? If he just ran through the traps and expected everyone else to have evasion that'd be okay? Your fault for not building a toon with evason? Now, if he's not capable of disabling traps because he built a character for straight DPS or something I would say fine, just make sure the group knows that and isn't looking for someone that can fit that role (and BTW, I think that's a badly built rogue anyway, just my opinion). But if a rogue in the group chose not to disable traps, then got all mad at people for being upset by this... that would be exactly what you are describing for clerics/FvS and it would be crappy. He'd be a crappy teammate with a crappy self-centered attitude.

[Khatzhas]

I'm going to guess ML 17+. There, yes, you should be able to find at least one piece of healing amp gear. Actually, its this bit that is one of the things in question.

Post 20? There are many options. The PDK gloves. Convalescent gear. Dragontouched. Greensteel. Epic Gloves of the Claw if you're really lucky.

Pre level 20? Not so much.

What I was mostly questioning however was exactly how far Hermespan was willing to take his statements about who he would and wouldn't heal. Would he accept that the ship buff for 110% healing is "pumping healing amp as high as possible", or would he refuse to heal an otherwise good player because they did not make room in their build for healing amp by playing a human/helf?

[Aashrym]

It is only correct if we are playing a game where there are actual roles, as we do not none of this is correct.

All classes can be built with self-healing in mind. Treat others with the same respect you expect and you would probably not see so many decide it is better to let you die than keep you up.

There's also a difference between not having roles and having classes clearly designed with different strengths and weaknesses in mind. There are grey areas with class specific roles and class does not necessarily equal role but there are clear development decisions leaning towards roles in the class designs.

Also, when we're playing a game in which the development team has referred to the healer role that is based on a PnP game in from which there was also references to the healer role in various materials and much of the player base also refers to the healer role I might tend to disagree with your opinion that the roles don't exist. ;)

I think different players have different ideas on what some roles entail, however. The players screaming for heals and taking little to no responsibility for themselves on one extreme and the players saying they never heal others because it's not their job on the other extreme. We don't play in a game of such extremes and there is a lot of room in between both opinions to have the healing role without limiting that role to only healbotting or nannymoding.

[Inouk]

There's also a difference between not having roles and having classes clearly designed with different strengths and weaknesses in mind. There are grey areas with class specific roles and class does not necessarily equal role but there are clear development decisions leaning towards roles in the class designs.

Also, when we're playing a game in which the development team has referred to the healer role that is based on a PnP game in from which there was also references to the healer role in various materials and much of the player base also refers to the healer role I might tend to disagree with your opinion that the roles don't exist. ;)

I think different players have different ideas on what some roles entail, however. The players screaming for heals and taking little to no responsibility for themselves on one extreme and the players saying they never heal others because it's not their job on the other extreme. We don't play in a game of such extremes and there is a lot of room in between both opinions to have the healing role without limiting that role to only healbotting or nannymoding.

^ Well said!

If this thread is really about complaining about the relatively rare idiot that builds a barb with 4ac that constantly charges around corners to a new fight before the current fight is over, then yells at the healer when he dies, I'm 100% with you. If the thread is (as it seems to be) *****ing that it's not your responsibility to heal your teammates because you want to fight and they should all be self-sufficient... then that's non-sense.

[Rightousdude]

In the end, nobody ever waited 15-30 minutes for a dps barb or fighter to start a quest or a raid. People who play dps and healers understand that. With decent builds and decent gear a DPS can solo epic normal with a pocket healer, and a decent healer can solo epic hard with a pocket healer or dps.
It is a game, and people play to have fun, if playing with you is not fun, they will play with someone else, or with themselves. ;)

[Habreno]

With decent builds and decent gear a decent healer can solo epic hard.


Fixed that for you.

[Lyria]

My guess is if he's talking about Mass Heals and effective soloing on a divine not caring who else is in group, I'm going to guess ML 17+. There, yes, you should be able to find at least one piece of healing amp gear. Get the ship buff if you need it. There's at minimum 1.21x on incoming heals. If you pump your amp really well, say, HElf with Monk Dilletante, and have some raid gear, you could be seeing 1.2 monk, 1.2 human, 1.2 Levik's, 1.1 ship, 1.1 some other source, probably lootgen. And that all multiplies to get 2.09x. At level 17.

Not saying that the 1.21x is bad. But the 2.09x requires a great deal more effort. I'd be able to heal both in a group, provided that they weren't playing like an idiot.

What if I don't want to play a half-elf or human monk, though? What if I want to play, say, an elf fighter? Or a drow wizard? Or a halfling rogue?

That right there reduces your potential by a lot. And considering almost nobody runs Hound anymore, that cuts out another source. I haven't seen any Convalescent gear drop until 20+, either. Maybe just bad luck though.

So unless you find a convalescent loot item, you're looking at around a 1.1 at most -- assuming you get ship buffs all the time. And quite honestly, I get rather tired of waiting for people to run back to their guild ship to get buffs. 10m spent sitting there twiddling my thumbs waiting on them bores me. Yeah, guild buffs are a nice bonus, but they're not required.

If you don't play like a moron, you don't need as much healing amp. Sure, it's a nice bonus, but not necessary. I've leveled numerous characters up who had zero, and never got any complaints about how it was "difficult" to heal me. Then again, most of my characters are fairly self-sufficient. Bards, PMs, druids, artificers, etc.

[Mubjon]

^ This is ignorance wrapped in arrogance. Yes, there are roles, although those roles are mutable and aren't always mapped by class. Crowd control is a role, if you're running a raid and think you need crowd control, it's important to get a character that can do so. DPS is a role, healing is a role, tanking is a role. We could get more granular, like mana-less DPS is a role. Are all these roles required all the time? No. Are some classes able to fulfill multiple roles? Yes. Are most roles able to be filled by multiple classes? Certainly.

You know what they say about someone that asks and answers their own questions right?


Furthermore, even in groups where the healer(s) has said things like "If I decide any of you aren't worth healing I'll leave you behind" I haven't had a healer decide I wasn't worth healing, and yes, I treat all players with respect (I've never told a healer how to play their character or expected them to do nothing but heal). And in fact I'm planning to TR my fighter because I don't think he's a very good build (despite having been complimented plenty) for end game and isn't very self-reliant.

And we have stated that this happens rarely and depends on how much you play the game. I play the game 4 hours or more a night, it is my entertainment and of that 28 hours a week that I am in the game i see at least 1 instance of the divine in the group taking flak for **** poor melee that could not even bother with bringing some cure disease and remove curse pots to the sands. Or the melee could not just come to the divine for a greater restoration and then *****ed moan and groaned that the divine sucked because he got hit with 11 negative levels while running away from the cleric as the cleric was trying to burst as the he got hit with negative levels. Guess he should have stuck around for a deathward or at least had an item to block right?

Or is that the Divine's fault for the melee not bothering to take even the most modest steps at being self-reliant?


That all said, there is no excuse for expecting everyone to be totally self-reliant or fit some mold you want them to fit so that you can solo along side them and never be expected to heal, that's asinine. As a cleric or FVS you are better suited to the role of healing than any other class. If that isn't necessary because you have other healers in party or people generally don't need it, great, but that certainly is a "role" that you certainly are "suited to it". Do you expect the rogue never to open a lock or disable a trap even though he's capable of it? If he just ran through the traps and expected everyone else to have evasion that'd be okay? Your fault for not building a toon with evason? Now, if he's not capable of disabling traps because he built a character for straight DPS or something I would say fine, just make sure the group knows that and isn't looking for someone that can fit that role (and BTW, I think that's a badly built rogue anyway, just my opinion). But if a rogue in the group chose not to disable traps, then got all mad at people for being upset by this... that would be exactly what you are describing for clerics/FvS and it would be crappy. He'd be a crappy teammate with a crappy self-centered attitude.


I never expect the rogue to disarm a trap, I never demand it and I never demand buffs from the arcanes. It is not too much to ask that others do not demand that I cover things that are easy to replace with a few plat at any vendor.

Curse Pots - remove curse
Disease pots - remove disease

You need those two if you are going to fight mummies.

lesser restore pots - great for removing ray of enfeeblement and fixing you if you are slow

neutralize poison pots - great at all levels that you face spiders, scorpions and other animals that hit you with poison.

Those are all easy to get and do not cost you a whole lot. A stack will last you long into the upper levels unless you are really really unlucky.

It is not too much to ask a melee, arcane, and other divines to carry those 4 pots at all times. There is nothing wrong with carrying a stack of cure serious pots and getting some healing amp gear to heal between battles. Or bask in the aura that oftentimes ticks for 15 to 30+ every two seconds.

It is not the divines job to top you off all the time with SP. And if you think those things are too much to ask for from the divine perspective, then we have nothing else to discuss because we have way different views on what is acceptable and what is not from a players perspective.

[Habreno]

What if I don't want to play a half-elf or human monk, though? What if I want to play, say, an elf fighter? Or a drow wizard? Or a halfling rogue?

That right there reduces your potential by a lot. And considering almost nobody runs Hound anymore, that cuts out another source. I haven't seen any Convalescent gear drop until 20+, either. Maybe just bad luck though.

So unless you find a convalescent loot item, you're looking at around a 1.1 at most -- assuming you get ship buffs all the time. And quite honestly, I get rather tired of waiting for people to run back to their guild ship to get buffs. 10m spent sitting there twiddling my thumbs waiting on them bores me. Yeah, guild buffs are a nice bonus, but they're not required.

If you don't play like a moron, you don't need as much healing amp. Sure, it's a nice bonus, but not necessary. I've leveled numerous characters up who had zero, and never got any complaints about how it was "difficult" to heal me. Then again, most of my characters are fairly self-sufficient. Bards, PMs, druids, artificers, etc.


Not saying you have to, just showing what a HElf with Monk Dilletante (which can still be any class) can reach for heal amp.



There is heal amp gear under ML 20 that's not from raids. Not entirely common, but I believe that it's from quests you'll want to run for XP as well.

[Khatzhas]

There is heal amp gear under ML 20 that's not from raids. Not entirely common, but I believe that it's from quests you'll want to run for XP as well. Which quests please?

The only stuff I can think of are the Monk Bracers, but those only work for Monks.
Levik's? Unlikely to pick that up until after 20. Likewise with Dragontouched.

It would be rather handy to know of the other options.

[Habreno]

Fleshshaper's. Comes in breastplate and docent form.

Also Convalescent drops in sub-ML 20 versions, so you can get it there.

[susiedupfer]

^ Well said!

If this thread is really about complaining about the relatively rare idiot that builds a barb with 4ac that constantly charges around corners to a new fight before the current fight is over, then yells at the healer when he dies, I'm 100% with you. If the thread is (as it seems to be) *****ing that it's not your responsibility to heal your teammates because you want to fight and they should all be self-sufficient... then that's non-sense.

If that "relatively rare idiot" was indeed relatively rare, heal-capable toons would quietly squelch and move on. They are not in any fashion rare, whether relatively or not. They are way too common. And, while one may foolishly believe otherwise, they are common at all levels of experience. The newbies can be forgiven for coming from other MMO's. The multi-TR's, not so much.

It comes down to mind-set. If ANY player thinks that any or all the other players are there to solely support his/her class, it is problematic. I do not care what the little symbol by their name is, if they think anyone is there to only support them, it is a problem. Anyone have a problem with that statement?

What we need to do, the few that read and post in the forums, is figure out how to communicate this effectively to the newbies and non-newbies out there. Anyone have any idea how to do this?

The bottom line here is that all the posts on the forums are not going to solve this problem. It is going to, at the very least, take some action on the players' part to help combat this mindset. The talk-talk-talk here is useless.

[Inouk]

You know what they say about someone that asks and answers their own questions right?



And we have stated that this happens rarely and depends on how much you play the game. I play the game 4 hours or more a night, it is my entertainment and of that 28 hours a week that I am in the game i see at least 1 instance of the divine in the group taking flak for **** poor melee that could not even bother with bringing some cure disease and remove curse pots to the sands. Or the melee could not just come to the divine for a greater restoration and then *****ed moan and groaned that the divine sucked because he got hit with 11 negative levels while running away from the cleric as the cleric was trying to burst as the he got hit with negative levels. Guess he should have stuck around for a deathward or at least had an item to block right?

Or is that the Divine's fault for the melee not bothering to take even the most modest steps at being self-reliant?




I never expect the rogue to disarm a trap, I never demand it and I never demand buffs from the arcanes. It is not too much to ask that others do not demand that I cover things that are easy to replace with a few plat at any vendor.

Curse Pots - remove curse
Disease pots - remove disease

You need those two if you are going to fight mummies.

lesser restore pots - great for removing ray of enfeeblement and fixing you if you are slow

neutralize poison pots - great at all levels that you face spiders, scorpions and other animals that hit you with poison.

Those are all easy to get and do not cost you a whole lot. A stack will last you long into the upper levels unless you are really really unlucky.

It is not too much to ask a melee, arcane, and other divines to carry those 4 pots at all times. There is nothing wrong with carrying a stack of cure serious pots and getting some healing amp gear to heal between battles. Or bask in the aura that oftentimes ticks for 15 to 30+ every two seconds.

It is not the divines job to top you off all the time with SP. And if you think those things are too much to ask for from the divine perspective, then we have nothing else to discuss because we have way different views on what is acceptable and what is not from a players perspective.


We may have to agree to disagree. It is every players responsibility to contribute in any way they can to the success of the team, to feel otherwise makes you not a team player. I recognize that their are dumb players with bad builds and/or worse play styles. I recognize that there are plenty of non-healers that are poor teammates and aren't team players and that you and I will both dislike playing with them. That makes it no less our responsibility to try to cover for their weaknesses in a group. Will I drink pots for a bad group in a mission gone south, probably not. But I also won't deny heals, or DV, or remove curse, etc because I think they should buy hundreds of pots (difficult for many first lifers) to drink while I melee/nuke. If I think I need to let someone die so that they don't make the rest of us fail by draining the clerics SP unreasonably, then I may make that choice for the good of the team, but otherwise I will always do what I can.

[Karavek]

We may have to agree to disagree. It is every players responsibility to contribute in any way they can to the success of the team, to feel otherwise makes you not a team player. I recognize that their are dumb players with bad builds and/or worse play styles. I recognize that there are plenty of non-healers that are poor teammates and aren't team players and that you and I will both dislike playing with them. That makes it no less our responsibility to try to cover for their weaknesses in a group. Will I drink pots for a bad group in a mission gone south, probably not. But I also won't deny heals, or DV, or remove curse, etc because I think they should buy hundreds of pots (difficult for many first lifers) to drink while I melee/nuke. If I think I need to let someone die so that they don't make the rest of us fail by draining the clerics SP unreasonably, then I may make that choice for the good of the team, but otherwise I will always do what I can.

All I see in your posts here is that you didnt bother to read through them, and that now your making personal attacks on those like myself based on ignorance.

DDO is a free form character building game. This type of character builder does not promote the traditional wowtard school of the old holy trinity, but the new holy trinity of self containment.

Dont give me that well I have to only play two races to make a viable fighter or barb pure build straw man. Its nothing new here in DDO for the same leetist who promoted 2 healbots and 1 hastebot and the rest ****** DPS for years here that made most who would of enjoyed playing casters leave in disgust or be forced to play in the shadow of anonymity.

Sorc now days pretty much have to be WF and we all know this. Wizards all go PM unless Toaster who have an actual choice when it comes to having the power to survive. The vast majority of ****** DPS melee pick Horc or Human, with some old school still favoring dwarven con and their axe aspects. Since year one builds like my finesse fighting melees have taken no shortage of flack whiletime and again proving its the last man standing who is always right in his build choices. Hence why BYOH is becoming ever more recognized as the standard.

Not in the history of LFMs on DDO has one ever left waiting outside the quest with only one spot left waiting an hour for a warrior class. Unless it was a divine warrior called a cleric/FVS which the party mistakenly thinks exists to nanny them.

Nor do you seem to wish to addess the frequently encountered verbal abused levied at what have long been mistakenly seen as back row and support classes.

Finally you still use the term Healer. There are no healers in DDO and outside of a handful of extreme content examples like E dif raids or EE content, a devoted cleric to sustain players is never needed and it a player does they are in over their head, its really that simple.

For a long time alot of players got to push clerics around, and clerics had little option but to take it and slowly lose any interest in the game. It was the extreme abuse I suffered during those early years as a rogue, wizard, and cleric that made me choose to make DDO only an on and off again MMO and I have little doubt it was masses of players like myself being put into such a mindset that pushed DDO to the brink before our Hybrid model was adapted. Then i happily returned and spent several hundred dollars getting my premium set up so id never need to sub again. That freedom helped remove the feeling of HAVING to play a certain amount of time each month to get my monies worth, and thus freed me from having to be on if annoyed.

Now for a long time pugs have had to suffer the effects of abusing me and those like me who now have zero compunction to log off and leave the game alone for days or weeks while we enjoy something else. This only lead to hurting DDOs population as they still have many wowtards wanting the old trinity rather then adapting to the new one.

I hate to tell you but as a veteran Dice Roller and DM for many years my opinion and those of other table top DMs always matter more then wowtards on these forums. Infact for most of us old year one players those without pnp experience are the ultimate newb in dire need of proper training more so then any other.

We are all adventurers that is where it starts and where it stops. I keep alive those who I value and leave those to rot those who offend. The success of the quest is secondary to my enjoyment factor and I **** well can take a fair bit of enjoyment lava bathing a soul stone or two then shutting up their claims of awesome DPS by tearing through content faster alone then with their aid.

This may surprise you but its far more often harder to defeat groups with your own group then alone even with a party and dungeon scaling added in. Its just easy to focus and eliminate in an efficient and orderly manner when your the tank, aoe dots, self recovery, and solid weapon ability for when mana gets tight.

Fighter mages rules 2nd ed mainly elf ones with the bladesinger kit. 3E+ it became mainly the rule of divine casters as the heavy restrictions on faith where removed allowing even gawdless clerics.

Team play has little to do with being willing to help, and alot more with how you treat people. And those like myself who have endured countless years on this game being treated like a racial minority who only existed to serve those getting to have the fun are frankly done taking it and happily dish it out with all the fury of a zealot.

give a cleric a kind word and a few mana pots and they will watch your back for a quest. Yell the word heal once, and make an enemy for life.

[Inouk]

All I see in your posts here is that you didnt bother to read through them, and that now your making personal attacks on those like myself based on ignorance.

DDO is a free form character building game. This type of character builder does not promote the traditional wowtard school of the old holy trinity, but the new holy trinity of self containment.

Dont give me that well I have to only play two races to make a viable fighter or barb pure build straw man. Its nothing new here in DDO for the same leetist who promoted 2 healbots and 1 hastebot and the rest ****** DPS for years here that made most who would of enjoyed playing casters leave in disgust or be forced to play in the shadow of anonymity.

Sorc now days pretty much have to be WF and we all know this. Wizards all go PM unless Toaster who have an actual choice when it comes to having the power to survive. The vast majority of ****** DPS melee pick Horc or Human, with some old school still favoring dwarven con and their axe aspects. Since year one builds like my finesse fighting melees have taken no shortage of flack whiletime and again proving its the last man standing who is always right in his build choices. Hence why BYOH is becoming ever more recognized as the standard.

Not in the history of LFMs on DDO has one ever left waiting outside the quest with only one spot left waiting an hour for a warrior class. Unless it was a divine warrior called a cleric/FVS which the party mistakenly thinks exists to nanny them.

Nor do you seem to wish to addess the frequently encountered verbal abused levied at what have long been mistakenly seen as back row and support classes.

Finally you still use the term Healer. There are no healers in DDO and outside of a handful of extreme content examples like E dif raids or EE content, a devoted cleric to sustain players is never needed and it a player does they are in over their head, its really that simple.

For a long time alot of players got to push clerics around, and clerics had little option but to take it and slowly lose any interest in the game. It was the extreme abuse I suffered during those early years as a rogue, wizard, and cleric that made me choose to make DDO only an on and off again MMO and I have little doubt it was masses of players like myself being put into such a mindset that pushed DDO to the brink before our Hybrid model was adapted. Then i happily returned and spent several hundred dollars getting my premium set up so id never need to sub again. That freedom helped remove the feeling of HAVING to play a certain amount of time each month to get my monies worth, and thus freed me from having to be on if annoyed.

Now for a long time pugs have had to suffer the effects of abusing me and those like me who now have zero compunction to log off and leave the game alone for days or weeks while we enjoy something else. This only lead to hurting DDOs population as they still have many wowtards wanting the old trinity rather then adapting to the new one.

I hate to tell you but as a veteran Dice Roller and DM for many years my opinion and those of other table top DMs always matter more then wowtards on these forums. Infact for most of us old year one players those without pnp experience are the ultimate newb in dire need of proper training more so then any other.

We are all adventurers that is where it starts and where it stops. I keep alive those who I value and leave those to rot those who offend. The success of the quest is secondary to my enjoyment factor and I **** well can take a fair bit of enjoyment lava bathing a soul stone or two then shutting up their claims of awesome DPS by tearing through content faster alone then with their aid.

This may surprise you but its far more often harder to defeat groups with your own group then alone even with a party and dungeon scaling added in. Its just easy to focus and eliminate in an efficient and orderly manner when your the tank, aoe dots, self recovery, and solid weapon ability for when mana gets tight.

Fighter mages rules 2nd ed mainly elf ones with the bladesinger kit. 3E+ it became mainly the rule of divine casters as the heavy restrictions on faith where removed allowing even gawdless clerics.

Team play has little to do with being willing to help, and alot more with how you treat people. And those like myself who have endured countless years on this game being treated like a racial minority who only existed to serve those getting to have the fun are frankly done taking it and happily dish it out with all the fury of a zealot.

give a cleric a kind word and a few mana pots and they will watch your back for a quest. Yell the word heal once, and make an enemy for life.

I made no personal attacks, that's been you throughout the thread with words like "wowtards" (I never played WOW BTW) or you assume that my characters aren't self sufficient (I have 2 wizards, a light monk, a cleric, and a bard/rogue). You denigrate every build that isn't self-sufficient while crying that nobody should be required to build or play in a particular way. I hated the old way as much as you and was denied entrance into many groups because "we already have a caster", but you are acting JUST LIKE THEM! Saying you aren't a team player if you aren't willing to use team work is merely fact, not a personal attack. You make many assumptions about my play style, all of them wrong (my primary was a drow sorc, TR'd into drow PM, and will likely go back to fleshy sorc again). Furthermore I've played PnP D&D for over 30 years. According to you, you play for your own enjoyment and care more about that than the team or the mission...that's fine, but don't pretend for a second that that doesn't make you selfish, self-centered and elitist YOU are the one trying to force a play style on everyone else. I am the one that gets along with every group I've played in. Check yourself.

[Rawrargh]

All I see in your posts here is that you didnt bother to read through them, and that now your making personal attacks on those like myself based on ignorance.

DDO is a free form character building game. This type of character builder does not promote the traditional wowtard school of the old holy trinity, but the new holy trinity of self containment.

Dont give me that well I have to only play two races to make a viable fighter or barb pure build straw man. Its nothing new here in DDO for the same leetist who promoted 2 healbots and 1 hastebot and the rest ****** DPS for years here that made most who would of enjoyed playing casters leave in disgust or be forced to play in the shadow of anonymity.

Sorc now days pretty much have to be WF and we all know this. Wizards all go PM unless Toaster who have an actual choice when it comes to having the power to survive. The vast majority of ****** DPS melee pick Horc or Human, with some old school still favoring dwarven con and their axe aspects. Since year one builds like my finesse fighting melees have taken no shortage of flack whiletime and again proving its the last man standing who is always right in his build choices. Hence why BYOH is becoming ever more recognized as the standard.

Not in the history of LFMs on DDO has one ever left waiting outside the quest with only one spot left waiting an hour for a warrior class. Unless it was a divine warrior called a cleric/FVS which the party mistakenly thinks exists to nanny them.

Nor do you seem to wish to addess the frequently encountered verbal abused levied at what have long been mistakenly seen as back row and support classes.

Finally you still use the term Healer. There are no healers in DDO and outside of a handful of extreme content examples like E dif raids or EE content, a devoted cleric to sustain players is never needed and it a player does they are in over their head, its really that simple.

For a long time alot of players got to push clerics around, and clerics had little option but to take it and slowly lose any interest in the game. It was the extreme abuse I suffered during those early years as a rogue, wizard, and cleric that made me choose to make DDO only an on and off again MMO and I have little doubt it was masses of players like myself being put into such a mindset that pushed DDO to the brink before our Hybrid model was adapted. Then i happily returned and spent several hundred dollars getting my premium set up so id never need to sub again. That freedom helped remove the feeling of HAVING to play a certain amount of time each month to get my monies worth, and thus freed me from having to be on if annoyed.

Now for a long time pugs have had to suffer the effects of abusing me and those like me who now have zero compunction to log off and leave the game alone for days or weeks while we enjoy something else. This only lead to hurting DDOs population as they still have many wowtards wanting the old trinity rather then adapting to the new one.

I hate to tell you but as a veteran Dice Roller and DM for many years my opinion and those of other table top DMs always matter more then wowtards on these forums. Infact for most of us old year one players those without pnp experience are the ultimate newb in dire need of proper training more so then any other.

We are all adventurers that is where it starts and where it stops. I keep alive those who I value and leave those to rot those who offend. The success of the quest is secondary to my enjoyment factor and I **** well can take a fair bit of enjoyment lava bathing a soul stone or two then shutting up their claims of awesome DPS by tearing through content faster alone then with their aid.

This may surprise you but its far more often harder to defeat groups with your own group then alone even with a party and dungeon scaling added in. Its just easy to focus and eliminate in an efficient and orderly manner when your the tank, aoe dots, self recovery, and solid weapon ability for when mana gets tight.

Fighter mages rules 2nd ed mainly elf ones with the bladesinger kit. 3E+ it became mainly the rule of divine casters as the heavy restrictions on faith where removed allowing even gawdless clerics.

Team play has little to do with being willing to help, and alot more with how you treat people. And those like myself who have endured countless years on this game being treated like a racial minority who only existed to serve those getting to have the fun are frankly done taking it and happily dish it out with all the fury of a zealot.

give a cleric a kind word and a few mana pots and they will watch your back for a quest. Yell the word heal once, and make an enemy for life.

Do you not see the irony in your own post? The reason the only viable choices for arcanes are WF sorcs, archmages and PMs is because of the attitude of people like you. If the choice for a new player (new players don't ussually have access to WF since that's something you don't get for free and since most new players come here because it's being advertised as a free to play game) is to either go for palemaster or rely on clerics that refuse to heal because they don't like healing other players. The choice kinda disapears. Your attitude being the main factor.

Secondly you expect people to tip-toe around you and throw a fit if asked to heal, however you still berate people on how to play their toons by demanding selfsufficiency.

Thirdly I'd like to provide some perspective for you. When I'm playing my barb I always bring between 1-200 cure pots with me, These pots costs 7-9k/stack and heal for 25-35 with 1.1'1.1*1.3 (1.573) H-amp (and removes my healing amp for some reason), while a stack of healscrolls costs around 10-11k and heal for 110*1.4*1.573 = 242/pop the math is pretty simple... I don't mind reimbursing a healer...uh... I mean DIVINE ****ING POWERRANGER... for the scrolls used since it's cheaper almost 7 times cheaper. On top of that, you have that big shiny blue bar, that fancy heal spell and those wonderful turn undeads that can be turned into a freaking burst that heals and removes neg levels.
...seriously...

Fourth(ly?) Your attitude that everyone who didn't play tabletop DnD is worth less than you reeks of napoleon complex, and is absolutely ridiculous.

Finally I would like to say that I think your comparisson between being told to throw a heal and racially based opression is not only ********, it's DISGUSTING and DISRESPECTFUL.

Last time I feed this troll...

[Thrudh]

Now, I realise that my experience is anecdotal, but, I cannot help but consider this issue in different terms. Imagine a friend who complains that the last 8 girls he has dated have all dumped him. Instead of taking a hint, this friend thinks the source of his problem is that women are stupid. The idiocy in this hypothetical friend is the same kind of thing I see in theads and complaints like this. If every party you've been in complains that you should spend more time healing, or you're not healing well enough, it's very unlikely that you're only playing with rude people. It's far more likely that they have a point and you're just bad.

THis. BYOH is great and all, but most of the time, a great cleric can cast, fight, and heal the rest of the party. I've experienced very few PUGs where the other players were so bad, I couldn't keep them up, AND fight and cast as a divine.

If you can't heal the average semi-decent PUG, AND cast and/or fight, then I'm thinking you're just a not a good player.

[Khatzhas]

Fleshshaper's. Comes in breastplate and docent form.

Also Convalescent drops in sub-ML 20 versions, so you can get it there. Cool. Good to know about the fleshshaper stuff.

However, I'm going to have to disagree about the convalescent gear. Never seen a sub-ml20 example of this. Not as drop, not as reward, and not in the Thelanis auction house. If you say it exists, I'll take your word for it, but I don't think that it is available enough to reasonably consider.

[Khatzhas]

DDO is a free form character building game. This type of character builder does not promote the traditional wowtard school of the old holy trinity, but the new holy trinity of self containment. "wowtard"? Is this even a real word? What does it mean?
What exactly is the new trinity of self containment? Healing, Mitigation, DPS?


Dont give me that well I have to only play two races to make a viable fighter or barb pure build straw man. Its nothing new here in DDO for the same leetist who promoted 2 healbots and 1 hastebot and the rest ****** DPS for years here that made most who would of enjoyed playing casters leave in disgust or be forced to play in the shadow of anonymity. Those two points are not related to each other. Unless you are justifying your position by claiming that the earlier treatment of casters was acceptable?


Nor do you seem to wish to addess the frequently encountered verbal abused levied at what have long been mistakenly seen as back row and support classes. He has addressed it. He just shares the view that the stupid and downright nasty players are a minority, and that they will be stupid and nasty whichever of their characters they happen to be logged into currently.


Finally you still use the term Healer. There are no healers in DDO and outside of a handful of extreme content examples like E dif raids or EE content, a devoted cleric to sustain players is never needed and it a player does they are in over their head, its really that simple. I think that that is just a case of your definition of the word differing. If you take it that "healer" means "someone who is healing", you might find it easier to understand.


I hate to tell you but as a veteran Dice Roller and DM for many years my opinion and those of other table top DMs always matter more then wowtards on these forums. Until I know quite what a "wowtard" is, I can't be sure exactly what you are saying here, or even which category I'd fall into, if not both. However I do not believe that my opinion matters more than anyone else who is capable of putting forward a logical argument. Doesn't mean that I'd agree with them, but they have the right to have their opinions considered.


Infact for most of us old year one players those without pnp experience are the ultimate newb in dire need of proper training more so then any other. Training for DDO or PnP?


Team play has little to do with being willing to help, and alot more with how you treat people. And those like myself who have endured countless years on this game being treated like a racial minority who only existed to serve those getting to have the fun are frankly done taking it and happily dish it out with all the fury of a zealot. The people that you are taking it out on are rarely the people who hurt you.
Revelling in your ability to mistreat others simply because you have been mistreated in the past is not a healthy attitude. There are words for people who simply enjoy hurting others. None of them are complimentary, and few make any allowances for the perceived slight that they try to use to justify their actions.
If this is your attitude in real life rather than only when you have the anonymity of the internet, I'd advise you to seek guidance.

[Karavek]

THis. BYOH is great and all, but most of the time, a great cleric can cast, fight, and heal the rest of the party. I've experienced very few PUGs where the other players were so bad, I couldn't keep them up, AND fight and cast as a divine.

If you can't heal the average semi-decent PUG, AND cast and/or fight, then I'm thinking you're just a not a good player.

its not a matter of cant, so much as we frankly feel there should never be a need for another player to sacrifice their play time( combat the only actual unique and interesting aspect of DDO that makes it even remotely competitive with other MMO) As I have said in various threads over the eyars numerous times. DDO is a hack and slash MMO worthy of the diablo series. Its only fun comes from actual play. Support and CC as ones exclusive roles to partake in, or even be expected of when others have equally useful abilities potentially(( for example all the uber strength barbs who never bother with trip or sunder instead expecting the rogues to break down fort nowdays, and expect CC to come from arcane haste bot buffers still)

In the end the only way to actually enjoy this game is to not force others to not play it at the same time, however when people keep thinking being in need of anything from another is an ok way to build in a free form game where the holy trinity is one of self containment then it only breeds all the social anger we see in the game.

[Karavek]

So yesterday for the first time in a long time i bothered to log into the game since an RL friend of mine was on it and we thought it would be fun to do a dungeon chain together.

Since he was 8 and the character I decided to play was a mainly sorcerer we thought an elite Deleras tomb would be some easy fun. He being a new player kind of wanted to do a full group. he hasnt really become totally embittered as I have.

He was on a new FVS he had decided to try after getting a cleric to mid lvl, and a drow PM to around 18. He has already outshone many a fellow new player in his pugging experience as his years of PnP give him a huge advantage when it comes to understanding the many complexities of character building. and unlike most was never impacted by our horrible dont bother with ac attitude.

So I set up an LFM stating: No Zerg,Dungeon Crawl,Be prepared

Pretty standard and well known descriptors. though be prepped has some wiggle room not exactly stating BYOH it does usually mean any pots or wands you can make use of and may need you best have.

First thing we get is a pure monk. immediately he ask my friend if he is a healer. My friend already having heard from me about these issues, politely explains that yes he has some heal magic, but his time here isnt to baby sit others.

I quickly go over the standard this is DDO and there are no healers here just divine killers of the undead. That healing especially for a monk should not be an issue.

He starts claiming he is an uber vet with a capped raid healer etc. says he is on the game more then 8 years( odd since I dont recall this game existing in 04, and bought my box when it first hit the shelves in 06 and beta doesnt count so..) that he is a dark phoenix build( so too dumb to actually play the game and be creative) and starts linking silly chronoscape raid items like they are a big deal, then acting surprised at and then saying he has no CC event gear when my friend links his shcoking blow trinket saying he doesnt need the charged gauntlets( what super vet lacks any CC event items when as far as I know all real vets aquired every piece of meaningful gear the first time it occurred and now days only do it for new custom hats on lowbies or for the sheer sure fun of killing jack jibbers endlessly)

Worse he starts side seat leading the group, and zerging, and pointing to the silly kill counter. a feature I truly wish they had never added as it has never brought a single bit of good to a group in all the years I have been on.

But the simple fact was the damage for me was already done. The moment he started zerging I started losing any sense of enjoyment and felt nothing but a desire to just log off. My friend tried to keep me into it. but the monk just wouldnt shut up and my ignore list long ago reached max. I asked him nicely, I told him bluntly. and Even when he kept zerging past the traps I had made sure we had a rogue for to get the ful xp run, he kept using it as an excuse to run further ahead, which made the fighter and sorc zerg head, and my friend felt torn between staying with the action to have fun, and I and the rogue I was staying slow to try and show the whole non zerg thing wasnt some optional.

However by the end of part two i was truly just disgusted. I could of kicked the monk, hell the sorc left when I threatened to in the part 2, and only my friend supported the choice, So with that I was like enjoy the run guys but this D bag has ruined it for me and unless he like to drop 400 or more a year has helped to cost turbine money that I normally have happily spent in support of a game I still wish to enjoy but until certain kinds of players are the ones driven to play solo and anon rather then the clerics, the game feels like its failing not due to devs actions but those of fellow players who only seem to live to ruin others fun.

The answer to end zerging has always been obvious. remove the ability to heal at a range. just as in pnp, reduce incoming damage accordingly to account for this, remove dungeon alert as a instance wide effect and instead induce it on a player by player event when they are being surrounded. this would more accurately mimic the mechanic of overwhelming numbers used in PnP to make sure even 8 mere kobolds can bring down a lvl 20 warrior. People should never feel confident against large groups in a melee fight.

This is just another example, a first time I group in months case, of where in a general pug you get to many types of players. Because DDO has tried to appeal to more then the core group it should have.

So Back to playing pretty much solo, because as an MMO DDO continues to fall flat, with its typical pug experience doing more to hurt a persons enjoyment then enhance it.

One more reason to mourn the passing of City Of Heroes and I suspect the age of MMO in general is coming to an end.

[Inouk]

So yesterday for the first time in a long time i bothered to log into the game since an RL friend of mine was on it and we thought it would be fun to do a dungeon chain together.

Since he was 8 and the character I decided to play was a mainly sorcerer we thought an elite Deleras tomb would be some easy fun. He being a new player kind of wanted to do a full group. he hasnt really become totally embittered as I have.

He was on a new FVS he had decided to try after getting a cleric to mid lvl, and a drow PM to around 18. He has already outshone many a fellow new player in his pugging experience as his years of PnP give him a huge advantage when it comes to understanding the many complexities of character building. and unlike most was never impacted by our horrible dont bother with ac attitude.

So I set up an LFM stating: No Zerg,Dungeon Crawl,Be prepared

Pretty standard and well known descriptors. though be prepped has some wiggle room not exactly stating BYOH it does usually mean any pots or wands you can make use of and may need you best have.

First thing we get is a pure monk. immediately he ask my friend if he is a healer. My friend already having heard from me about these issues, politely explains that yes he has some heal magic, but his time here isnt to baby sit others.

I quickly go over the standard this is DDO and there are no healers here just divine killers of the undead. That healing especially for a monk should not be an issue.

He starts claiming he is an uber vet with a capped raid healer etc. says he is on the game more then 8 years( odd since I dont recall this game existing in 04, and bought my box when it first hit the shelves in 06 and beta doesnt count so..) that he is a dark phoenix build( so too dumb to actually play the game and be creative) and starts linking silly chronoscape raid items like they are a big deal, then acting surprised at and then saying he has no CC event gear when my friend links his shcoking blow trinket saying he doesnt need the charged gauntlets( what super vet lacks any CC event items when as far as I know all real vets aquired every piece of meaningful gear the first time it occurred and now days only do it for new custom hats on lowbies or for the sheer sure fun of killing jack jibbers endlessly)

Worse he starts side seat leading the group, and zerging, and pointing to the silly kill counter. a feature I truly wish they had never added as it has never brought a single bit of good to a group in all the years I have been on.

But the simple fact was the damage for me was already done. The moment he started zerging I started losing any sense of enjoyment and felt nothing but a desire to just log off. My friend tried to keep me into it. but the monk just wouldnt shut up and my ignore list long ago reached max. I asked him nicely, I told him bluntly. and Even when he kept zerging past the traps I had made sure we had a rogue for to get the ful xp run, he kept using it as an excuse to run further ahead, which made the fighter and sorc zerg head, and my friend felt torn between staying with the action to have fun, and I and the rogue I was staying slow to try and show the whole non zerg thing wasnt some optional.

However by the end of part two i was truly just disgusted. I could of kicked the monk, hell the sorc left when I threatened to in the part 2, and only my friend supported the choice, So with that I was like enjoy the run guys but this D bag has ruined it for me and unless he like to drop 400 or more a year has helped to cost turbine money that I normally have happily spent in support of a game I still wish to enjoy but until certain kinds of players are the ones driven to play solo and anon rather then the clerics, the game feels like its failing not due to devs actions but those of fellow players who only seem to live to ruin others fun.

The answer to end zerging has always been obvious. remove the ability to heal at a range. just as in pnp, reduce incoming damage accordingly to account for this, remove dungeon alert as a instance wide effect and instead induce it on a player by player event when they are being surrounded. this would more accurately mimic the mechanic of overwhelming numbers used in PnP to make sure even 8 mere kobolds can bring down a lvl 20 warrior. People should never feel confident against large groups in a melee fight.

This is just another example, a first time I group in months case, of where in a general pug you get to many types of players. Because DDO has tried to appeal to more then the core group it should have.

So Back to playing pretty much solo, because as an MMO DDO continues to fall flat, with its typical pug experience doing more to hurt a persons enjoyment then enhance it.

One more reason to mourn the passing of City Of Heroes and I suspect the age of MMO in general is coming to an end.

Sorry to hear it. To me (perspectives will vary) an MMO is all about cooperative experience. He clearly was not interested in anything but an XP zerg (common enough unfortunately) and was wrong to have joined a group that stated no Zerg and also to ignore requests of the party leader. To me this is a different topic than what was previously discussed so I'll stop there.

[Inouk]

its not a matter of cant, so much as we frankly feel there should never be a need for another player to sacrifice their play time( combat the only actual unique and interesting aspect of DDO that makes it even remotely competitive with other MMO) As I have said in various threads over the eyars numerous times. DDO is a hack and slash MMO worthy of the diablo series. Its only fun comes from actual play. Support and CC as ones exclusive roles to partake in, or even be expected of when others have equally useful abilities potentially(( for example all the uber strength barbs who never bother with trip or sunder instead expecting the rogues to break down fort nowdays, and expect CC to come from arcane haste bot buffers still)

In the end the only way to actually enjoy this game is to not force others to not play it at the same time, however when people keep thinking being in need of anything from another is an ok way to build in a free form game where the holy trinity is one of self containment then it only breeds all the social anger we see in the game.

Actually, I disagree that this is hack & slash like Diablo, and if it were like Diablo I would like it a lot less. This is a co-op game, part of the game design and experience is relying on different classes and different strengths and what each can bring to the table to help the whole. Each tactic or strategy may require specific roles which need to be filled to be effective, and the very fact that there are tactics and strategies separates it from Diablo for me. For my personal tastes I would like the bad guys to hit harder and have fewer HP to make them more equal to characters and further enhance the need for tactics, strategy, and roles. Being an Everquest vet that loved to play an enchanter I was very disappointed with the almost utter lack of need for tactics in DDO except for in the most challenging content, but I'm now content with what they have provided.

It seems to me this is the core of the problem; the game design and core player base consider this a cooperative game with roles and strategies, and it seems like you want it to be 100% hack and slash like Diablo, and are unsurprisingly dissatisfied with the results not matching your expectations. What I find surprising is that in the anecdote you gave after the quoted post, it sounds like you and your friend were trying to play the game as a cooperative game with roles and strategies (got a rogue to disable traps for instance), and some hack and slasher ruined your fun....

[Karavek]

Actually, I disagree that this is hack & slash like Diablo, and if it were like Diablo I would like it a lot less. This is a co-op game, part of the game design and experience is relying on different classes and different strengths and what each can bring to the table to help the whole. Each tactic or strategy may require specific roles which need to be filled to be effective, and the very fact that there are tactics and strategies separates it from Diablo for me. For my personal tastes I would like the bad guys to hit harder and have fewer HP to make them more equal to characters and further enhance the need for tactics, strategy, and roles. Being an Everquest vet that loved to play an enchanter I was very disappointed with the almost utter lack of need for tactics in DDO except for in the most challenging content, but I'm now content with what they have provided.

It seems to me this is the core of the problem; the game design and core player base consider this a cooperative game with roles and strategies, and it seems like you want it to be 100% hack and slash like Diablo, and are unsurprisingly dissatisfied with the results not matching your expectations. What I find surprising is that in the anecdote you gave after the quoted post, it sounds like you and your friend were trying to play the game as a cooperative game with roles and strategies (got a rogue to disable traps for instance), and some hack and slasher ruined your fun....

If you honestly thought you played Diablo 2 without strategy then i cant imagine you every played it much. Using the right skills, potion timing, and especially on max dif with no dieing allowed meant you had to be beyond a mindless frnezy. Hack and slash does not mean no strategy and that is just fact.

Disabling traps is not a role nor a strategy its a matter of xp aquisition and survival. Traps in Ds tomb on elite in some parts can hit pretty hard and avoiding using up extra resources like healing through them and buffing up to endure them is simply practical. Hack and slash is also a part of that as in some cases we must spend abit of extra time clearing every foe to get max kill xp bonus.

The issue with a zerger is not his hack and slash ability which I had no complaint with, its that it incited others to do the same who though at a slow pace had no issue being self sufficient in areas that seperate party members with dropped doors put high pressure on them and drove them to throw complaints about a lack of healing etc. While the rogue felt like they where being wanted for little more then their trap skills when often denied a chance to be with the party during fights when the monk would leap through and run ahead to clear far off mobs that we had no need to hurry to.

Hack and slash also doesnt mean a speed racer attitude. I like to take my killing slow and steady personally and savor each death more. hence that whole dungeon crawl tag along with no zerg.

[Karavek]

Actually, I disagree that this is hack & slash like Diablo, and if it were like Diablo I would like it a lot less. This is a co-op game, part of the game design and experience is relying on different classes and different strengths and what each can bring to the table to help the whole. Each tactic or strategy may require specific roles which need to be filled to be effective, and the very fact that there are tactics and strategies separates it from Diablo for me. For my personal tastes I would like the bad guys to hit harder and have fewer HP to make them more equal to characters and further enhance the need for tactics, strategy, and roles. Being an Everquest vet that loved to play an enchanter I was very disappointed with the almost utter lack of need for tactics in DDO except for in the most challenging content, but I'm now content with what they have provided.

It seems to me this is the core of the problem; the game design and core player base consider this a cooperative game with roles and strategies, and it seems like you want it to be 100% hack and slash like Diablo, and are unsurprisingly dissatisfied with the results not matching your expectations. What I find surprising is that in the anecdote you gave after the quoted post, it sounds like you and your friend were trying to play the game as a cooperative game with roles and strategies (got a rogue to disable traps for instance), and some hack and slasher ruined your fun....

It occurs to me maybe you mean diablo 3? well that game is not diablo. if you never enjoyed diablo 2 and dont care for old games, look up torchlight1 and 2 they are the real heir to the legacy of the old Diablo games.

And as some have said if and when the diminishing returns system added to armor makes its way to the rest of the DDo D20 then finally devs can start getting a real base line for challenge that impacts all players equally. Its frankly silly how much mindless farming gets players ahead of others.

Its part of the whole issue. because some divines just want to tell others go gridn out silver flame favor for pots etc. but grinding and farming should never be the answer to keeping players on the same page.

[Postumus]

As far as I can tell, mostly from the forums, from threads like this, by healers talking about what they think other classes are like. It seems to be a self-perpetuating myth, with little basis in actual reality.
I'm sure that there must have been occasions when it has occurred, but I've yet to see one.

But I have yet to have anyone say anything like "Stop casting/fighting, you're only here to heal us."


In almost three years I have been told something comparable to this only twice that I can remember. Far more often Ihave seen clerics raise reckless players over and over until the party told them to leave the dead until the next shrine.

I have also been in about a dozen PUGs where the cleric made it clear from the outset he would not be healing anyone.

I like the OPs story, but in my version the cleric would have been sitting there in the chair laughing with his aura running.

"ooh that tickled!"

[Postumus]

At one stage it reached a point where some individuals would request me to cure poison, cure disease, remove curse, blindness, etc, etc. Last time I checked all those things were available in a potion. As a cleric, I have limited SP, the SP I waste on things like rem curse etc, is SP that I dont have for healing, ergo, I dont cast rem curse and inform that it comes in a potion.


That's what wands are for. Why wouldn't you carry wands for rem poison, disease, & curse? I don't think I've ever burned through an entire wand before capping a character yet.

[susiedupfer]

That's what wands are for. Why wouldn't you carry wands for rem poison, disease, & curse? I don't think I've ever burned through an entire wand before capping a character yet.

I have indeed burned through multiple wands(that only have 50 charges) in doing a life. I learned that pots stack to 100, and if I get the ones from the marketplace, I can hand a small stack to someone, and help them learn to help themselves. With wands, also, there is the whole constantly switching items in my hands. That eats time like you would not believe. With the exception of VoD tank, everyone should be able to see the little icons over their heads to tell them they are cursed or poisoned. And they can see if they are diseased or stat damaged much easier than I can.

Let's look at it this way...if you are ill, you go to the doctor. (S)He prescribes an oral medication for you. (tablet, capsule, liquid) (S)He writes the prescription, the pharmacist fills it, then you go home and take it, right? The MD does not come to your house twice a day to put the medicine in your mouth, pour water in, and stroke your throat to make you swallow. You want to get better, right? So, you take your medicine, right?

Same concept. You want to get better, you take your medicine. You are responsible for it, not the heal capable toon in the party.

[Postumus]

This was posted this in another thread as well. It didnt have the snazzy little ending on it where the cleric cometfalls the melee types.

My take on the situation.

Clerics who only stand back and heal are playing half of their class.
Clerics who will NOT heal anyone but themselves are ALSO playing half their class.



So you are saying their play is "half-classed?"

[Postumus]

Same concept. You want to get better, you take your medicine. You are responsible for it, not the heal capable toon in the party.

I gather you do not play many team sports. This attitude is fine for individuals, but true teammates back each other up.

In basketball you do not just let the guy who blew past your buddy get a free layup to teach your guards a lesson about what happens when they slip up on defense.

In football the safety does not let the opposing receiver waltz into the endzone to teach the cornerback a lesson on how to be a better defender.

In baseball the outfielders do not ignore the ball allowing the batter to get an infield homerun just to teach the pitcher how to be a better pitcher.

In the military you do not let your comrade suffer heatstroke to teach him that he should have filled his canteens before you went on patrol.

A PUG can be a collection of individuals or a team. I subscribe to the team concept.

[Entelech]

Personally, I'd love to see what happens if they disable selling Cleric / FvS / Bard hirelings from the NPC vendors for a month. Oh, and triple the price of the ones in the store.

I think the Barbs and Fighters would be a lot more respectful afterwards.


The issue I've seen is not that the Cleric refuses to heal. The issue is that the Cleric feels abused, taken for granted, and unappreciated, so he solos rather than joining a PuG.

One party has a lousy Barbarian who wears all the +threat gear he can find, uses Cleave indiscriminately, and has absolutely no defenses or healing amplification whatsoever. In another party, you've got an actual tank, and the other DPS characters are disciplined enough to let said tank hold aggro. Each party does the same quest, fights the same 50 critters. In the first party, the Cleric is out of SP halfway through, and the Barbarian nitwit starts cursing him and telling him to drink pots if he sucks so much. In the second party, the Cleric finishes with a comfortable amount of SP, uses no pots, and even gets to swing a sword some of the time.

It doesn't take a Cleric too long to figure out which group he'd rather be in. And he's almost as quick to realize that if he only solos or joins "known good" groups, he enjoys the game a lot more.

And yes, in my experience, the terribad Barbarians outnumber the competent ones by about 50 to 1. Barbarian in the party = Cleric repellent.

[Entelech]

I gather you do not play many team sports. This attitude is fine for individuals, but true teammates back each other up.

What about the guy who is too busy showboating his fancy moves to actually play his position?

Most of the "Bad Barbs and Fighters" will brag endlessly about their last big crit, but are completely clueless about how much extra work they're creating for their teammates.

I've healed parties where letting the Barbarian die, and dropping their soulstone into lava, actually made things run smoother. Much smoother. Obviously, undeniably smoother.

I've had parties near-wipe on the first fight of the quest, then after letting the Barbarian die, we've proceeded to mop up the rest of the quest smoothly with no further problems while the Barbarian's ghost curses me in TELLS.

I've told Barbarians that XXX is the tank, and you're not getting a heal if you pull aggro. They always seem surprised to find that I mean it.

Tell me, how many basketball teams do BETTER without their center?


In basketball you do not just let the guy who blew past your buddy get a free layup to teach your guards a lesson about what happens when they slip up on defense.

In football the safety does not let the opposing receiver waltz into the endzone to teach the cornerback a lesson on how to be a better defender.

In baseball the outfielders do not ignore the ball allowing the batter to get an infield homerun just to teach the pitcher how to be a better pitcher.

In the military you do not let your comrade suffer heatstroke to teach him that he should have filled his canteens before you went on patrol.

In the military, you don't let your companion suffer heatstroke. The first time, that is. If it happens again, you beat the heck out of him once you get back to base. If it happens a third time, you roll a live grenade into his tent. Read your Vietnam War history.

In other sports, the dummy gets benched by the coach until he wises up. Soulstone into lava is the DDO equivalent of being benched.

[susiedupfer]

I took your original question seriously. I went on the theory that you weren't being a troll. I answered calmly, thoroughly, and with a real-life example that I thought most people could relate to. Was I wrong to do so?

If you are simply stuck on the opinion that clerics/fvs/druids/bards/wizards/sorcs are there to buff you, fix your boo-boos, and otherwise serve you, why did you not just say so? Team play implies that I am going to do my very best to help the group accomplish our goal. It implies that you are also. It does not in any manner imply that I must fix all the ills that you can fix by clicking one time on your hotbar.

Sometimes, killing all the bad guys is the best way a heal capable toon can help the group accomplish its goals.

[Karavek]

So Ive been around again, doing mostly solo challenge runs as the lvl 20 pug scene is a head ache waiting to happen most of the time when I browse the social lfm panel.

Been enjoying my 12/6/2 RSII/Ninja/fighter elven arcane archer. A very unusual build of mine that has had many a party over the years be very taken aback by his ability.

As a veteran of DDO who did his fair share of pure healing in all sorts of content until the lvl cap started to increase and make divine warriors ever more viable an option I am well aware that with a mere RSII my characters ability to heal when geared for it is quite substantial enough to feel a healer role if I wanted to especially for under lvl content like a shroud or von elite. Yet I prefer to remain anon as the years of bitter abuse have taught me the shadow is my only ally. Hence why my character is ninja with his monk lvls rather then a light based monk.

So I solo Challenges, the same ones I see so many complain about the lack of ability to solo. I keep my 80$ panther around for company as he usually out performs most players on pure fighter or barb builds.

I recall the last time I really enjoyed this character in the group was when he was a 10/6/2 and the first crystal cove event came. I joined a few pugs here and there after doing quite well solo. Id learned how potent a many shot barrage from a bow of disruption with my ghost touch force arrows could be against the wraiths especially jack.

So I was in a pug full of vets, many on TRs, and nearly all from high lvl guilds. I did not join as the group healer, and no one seeing my deep splash expected it. We had a supposedly heal specced FVS on the team who was assigned to go with the barb who was on point man clear duty while I took on the role of torch layer as I am quite good at it.

As we went through a few rounds of CC it became clear the healer wasnt very good at using his divine. and eventually admitted he was just knocking out a few fvs past lives for a arcane build. He had no experience nor really much interest in PLAYING HEALER, and assumed he could half ass it for an easy pike through the lvls.

By this point I had been pretty much forced to become god and be in multiple places at once. Luckily a divine ninja archer has alot of tricks up his sleeves. I started to have the barb just sit on center duty with a few others including the fvs( before he got kicked by an annoyed leader) while I and a very deadly AM specced wizard would run around laying lines, keeping them clear, and his DDoor helped keep the kobolds moving along. If something like jack showed Id catch the DDoor back while he sat on the kobold line and I would decimate the big bad wraith so many struggle to chase around and kill, needing nothing more then a single many shot cycle to eat him alive.

Soon the FVS left us, and our last spot was filled with a bardbarian who was very good at what he did.

My character istyn'dor alvyr got quite abit of attention and several from high end guilds asked if I would leave my lvl 25 guild to join theirs. I always said no as I own my little guild and know the stress and drama of becoming a known heal capable character in a large guild. But they never wanted me to leave when I had to, and he ended up on many a friends list as any time I came back on during that first CC at least one of those allies would send a tell saying a spot on their CC team just freed up.

I would love to run the house C challenges in groups, but as always I cant go off anon or be flooded with tells from those who have added him for his healing ability to their list.

That is the whole issue. Its the divines who are forced into anonymity and isolation while the masses who drive them there get to put up LFMs for healers that will never fill. It should be they who fear to be recognized and need to play solo to avoid a hassle and enjoy the game. not those of us who would happily be a powerful force in a group, but frequently our ability to destroy undead and endure the savaging of mighty foes while laying waste with our steel is completely forgotten and only our ability to maintain others kept at the forefront of thought.

Its not we who should have to prove the quality of our build when the lack of ability found in other classes is pretty much their standard way to play.

A warrior hireling does the job as well as any melee player ime, its the AI needing to do more then sit and swing that gets hung up. So why do so many players try to do what hirelings already do well. shut up and swing and if you have to make the tactical decision to let them die, they do so in stoic silence like a true hero.

[Wipey]

I gather you do not play many team sports. This attitude is fine for individuals, but true teammates back each other up....


...A PUG can be a collection of individuals or a team. I subscribe to the team concept.

Yup, that's why you should make lives that choose to help or support or use any resources for you as easy as your own abilities and resources allow. Unless you are broke newbie, there is really no excuse.

Having some experience and perspective, I would be ashamed to ask for anything I can EASILY get myself on fighter.

And frankly, from my experience playing divines, players showing effort and taking care of their poisons,curses,exhaustions, diseases, aware of positioning and defenses, using clickies etc are the best to have in group and most pleasant to play with. Not because I am lazy or don't have resources to help them.

[Postumus]

Yup, that's why you should make lives that choose to help or support or use any resources for you as easy as your own abilities and resources allow. Unless you are broke newbie, there is really no excuse.

Having some experience and perspective, I would be ashamed to ask for anything I can EASILY get myself on fighter.

And frankly, from my experience playing divines, players showing effort and taking care of their poisons,curses,exhaustions, diseases, aware of positioning and defenses, using clickies etc are the best to have in group and most pleasant to play with. Not because I am lazy or don't have resources to help them.

Yes the team mentality goes both ways.

And a good teammate is not punitive because he gets into a group with players who are less skilled, prepared, or have less passion to win. The nature of pick up anything team telated is that you will often be grouped with players different than you. Good team players adapt as necessary, they do not, say, only play offense to teach a lesser/newer player a lesson on defense. That is not even in the equation.

but again, I am certain that some players do not get the team concept and it is apparent in their play (in sports as well) or the comments such as "well if he is not going to be a team player by my definition, then why should I be a team player?"

[Chai]

Let's look at it this way...if you are ill, you go to the doctor. (S)He prescribes an oral medication for you. (tablet, capsule, liquid) (S)He writes the prescription, the pharmacist fills it, then you go home and take it, right? The MD does not come to your house twice a day to put the medicine in your mouth, pour water in, and stroke your throat to make you swallow. You want to get better, right? So, you take your medicine, right?

Same concept. You want to get better, you take your medicine. You are responsible for it, not the heal capable toon in the party.

That analogy doesnt fly, because we dont live in a universe where people are almost dead and right back to full health again after one spell is cast. That barb doesnt have the flu - hes about to die from wounds that can be magically healed.

Right now pure melee out DPSs the shinola out of most other classes. It takes them the longest to heal themselves up back to full, which means they have to do something the heal capable class can do much better, in order to continue doing their jobs, which is killing stuff. If the healer isnt healing them when needed they arent doing their job, and its actually their fault if the quest takes longer, because now the melee has to do the healing AND the killing which takes longer.

Coulda taken a sorc over that cleric who refuses to heal. Better DPS and same healing result. Also much easier to find in the PUG scene.

[Mubjon]

That analogy doesnt fly, because we dont live in a universe where people are almost dead and right back to full health again after one spell is cast. That barb doesnt have the flu - hes about to die from wounds that can be magically healed.

Right now pure melee out DPSs the shinola out of most other classes. It takes them the longest to heal themselves up back to full, which means they have to do something the heal capable class can do much better, in order to continue doing their jobs, which is killing stuff. If the healer isnt healing them when needed they arent doing their job, and its actually their fault if the quest takes longer, because now the melee has to do the healing AND the killing which takes longer.

Coulda taken a sorc over that cleric who refuses to heal. Better DPS and same healing result. Also much easier to find in the PUG scene.

The only time I have not bothered to heal a melee or arcane for that matter is when they pull the "YOU MUST HEAL ME!!" or they are WF that did not bother with healers friend or healing amp. It is getting to where if there is a melee that is WF in the party I will not join up, if there is a barb in the party I will not join up. I would rather solo than babysit mana sinks.

The problem is not that divines are not wanting to heal, the problem is the people that believe that is all they should be doing during a quest.

[JasonJi72]

Sorry, I could not get through all of it, but i read most of the thread.

I have played a lot of divines, but put most of them on the shelf. Currently, I am starting to play them again.

Here is my take on the whole thing:

1. I can fill a healing role on any divine I play, including druids.

2. I use 10 times more heal scrolls on my other characters than my divines, so I do not hesitate to use them to save my sp.

3. All my characters can self heal. I tried a barbarian with he cleric dilly, but parked him once I realized that the need to stay raged nullified that option, so I know they can't self heal. I will allow one and only one barbarian into the group if I am the healer. Not counting raids of course; then I will take as many as I can get my hands on.

4. Battle clerics and fvs' are fun, and do contribute to the group in more ways than most, but should be able to heal as well. I recently got a lot of flak for being a clonk. The leader left a slot open for a hire, and said loudly and repeatedly that everyone should bring potions, and there was a druid in the group as well. You don't carry potions anyway? And seriously, if my maximized, empowered bursts aren't enough to heal an elite level 7 quest with multiple TR's in the group, then you really should not blame the cleric.

5. I do not care about fitting in removal spells into my repetoire. I carry potions, so should everyone else. If you run out, I will gladly memorize the spell at the next shrine (please remind me to do so) if I am on a cleric. It is not only because of spell selection that I do this, it is also because of hotkey space.

6. What really upsets me is how players playstyle changes when they have a real healer in the group. Tactics and self healing tend to get thrown out the window. If you want to play that way with me, then you really will get better healing from a hireling, so bring one, and save us all the trouble.

7. While I cannot stand clerics and fvs' who refuse to heal, I have become one of those on very rare occassions. One example while on my evoker fvs for diplo impunity was when the party aggroed all the scorpions, refused to use my blade barriers, and did not stay together for mass cures. One guy even decided it would be a good idea to run back the way we originally came after talking to Helda (or whatever her name is). The rest of the group thought it would be a good idea to follow him; after I begged in voice and chat to let me go invis and get his stone. I knew it would require a lot of effort on my part to save the 3 dead guys, so again I told the others to let me get the stones. They followed me, and DID NOT USE MY BLADE BARRIER! I dropped group. lol.

8. Sometimes it is better to let someone die and become the tank yourself.

9. It takes some juevos to play a divine. Be supportive.

10. Last but not least... clerics and fvs' do have an unspoken bond of brotherhood. If you upset more than one, you will find it harder to get others to join you. You are forewarned.

Cya around the playground!

[Inouk]

Sorry, I could not get through all of it, but i read most of the thread.

I have played a lot of divines, but put most of them on the shelf. Currently, I am starting to play them again.

Here is my take on the whole thing:

1. I can fill a healing role on any divine I play, including druids.

2. I use 10 times more heal scrolls on my other characters than my divines, so I do not hesitate to use them to save my sp.

3. All my characters can self heal. I tried a barbarian with he cleric dilly, but parked him once I realized that the need to stay raged nullified that option, so I know they can't self heal. I will allow one and only one barbarian into the group if I am the healer. Not counting raids of course; then I will take as many as I can get my hands on.

4. Battle clerics and fvs' are fun, and do contribute to the group in more ways than most, but should be able to heal as well. I recently got a lot of flak for being a clonk. The leader left a slot open for a hire, and said loudly and repeatedly that everyone should bring potions, and there was a druid in the group as well. You don't carry potions anyway? And seriously, if my maximized, empowered bursts aren't enough to heal an elite level 7 quest with multiple TR's in the group, then you really should not blame the cleric.

5. I do not care about fitting in removal spells into my repetoire. I carry potions, so should everyone else. If you run out, I will gladly memorize the spell at the next shrine (please remind me to do so) if I am on a cleric. It is not only because of spell selection that I do this, it is also because of hotkey space.

6. What really upsets me is how players playstyle changes when they have a real healer in the group. Tactics and self healing tend to get thrown out the window. If you want to play that way with me, then you really will get better healing from a hireling, so bring one, and save us all the trouble.

7. While I cannot stand clerics and fvs' who refuse to heal, I have become one of those on very rare occassions. One example while on my evoker fvs for diplo impunity was when the party aggroed all the scorpions, refused to use my blade barriers, and did not stay together for mass cures. One guy even decided it would be a good idea to run back the way we originally came after talking to Helda (or whatever her name is). The rest of the group thought it would be a good idea to follow him; after I begged in voice and chat to let me go invis and get his stone. I knew it would require a lot of effort on my part to save the 3 dead guys, so again I told the others to let me get the stones. They followed me, and DID NOT USE MY BLADE BARRIER! I dropped group. lol.

8. Sometimes it is better to let someone die and become the tank yourself.

9. It takes some juevos to play a divine. Be supportive.

10. Last but not least... clerics and fvs' do have an unspoken bond of brotherhood. If you upset more than one, you will find it harder to get others to join you. You are forewarned.

Cya around the playground!

+1

Thanks for the well stated and reasoned post on this.

[Karavek]

Sorry, I could not get through all of it, but i read most of the thread.

I have played a lot of divines, but put most of them on the shelf. Currently, I am starting to play them again.

Here is my take on the whole thing:

1. I can fill a healing role on any divine I play, including druids.

2. I use 10 times more heal scrolls on my other characters than my divines, so I do not hesitate to use them to save my sp.

3. All my characters can self heal. I tried a barbarian with he cleric dilly, but parked him once I realized that the need to stay raged nullified that option, so I know they can't self heal. I will allow one and only one barbarian into the group if I am the healer. Not counting raids of course; then I will take as many as I can get my hands on.

4. Battle clerics and fvs' are fun, and do contribute to the group in more ways than most, but should be able to heal as well. I recently got a lot of flak for being a clonk. The leader left a slot open for a hire, and said loudly and repeatedly that everyone should bring potions, and there was a druid in the group as well. You don't carry potions anyway? And seriously, if my maximized, empowered bursts aren't enough to heal an elite level 7 quest with multiple TR's in the group, then you really should not blame the cleric.

5. I do not care about fitting in removal spells into my repetoire. I carry potions, so should everyone else. If you run out, I will gladly memorize the spell at the next shrine (please remind me to do so) if I am on a cleric. It is not only because of spell selection that I do this, it is also because of hotkey space.

6. What really upsets me is how players playstyle changes when they have a real healer in the group. Tactics and self healing tend to get thrown out the window. If you want to play that way with me, then you really will get better healing from a hireling, so bring one, and save us all the trouble.

7. While I cannot stand clerics and fvs' who refuse to heal, I have become one of those on very rare occassions. One example while on my evoker fvs for diplo impunity was when the party aggroed all the scorpions, refused to use my blade barriers, and did not stay together for mass cures. One guy even decided it would be a good idea to run back the way we originally came after talking to Helda (or whatever her name is). The rest of the group thought it would be a good idea to follow him; after I begged in voice and chat to let me go invis and get his stone. I knew it would require a lot of effort on my part to save the 3 dead guys, so again I told the others to let me get the stones. They followed me, and DID NOT USE MY BLADE BARRIER! I dropped group. lol.

8. Sometimes it is better to let someone die and become the tank yourself.

9. It takes some juevos to play a divine. Be supportive.

10. Last but not least... clerics and fvs' do have an unspoken bond of brotherhood. If you upset more than one, you will find it harder to get others to join you. You are forewarned.

Cya around the playground!

Thank you for actually reading the thread through abit, and for keeping the faith alive in the fraternal nature of the divine brotherhood.

We are the Sword of the Host and the Arrow of the Flame!

[Postumus]

Which quests please?

The only stuff I can think of are the Monk Bracers, but those only work for Monks.
Levik's? Unlikely to pick that up until after 20. Likewise with Dragontouched.

It would be rather handy to know of the other options.

Dragontouched.

[Postumus]

Right now pure melee out DPSs the shinola out of most other classes. It takes them the longest to heal themselves up back to full, which means they have to do something the heal capable class can do much better, in order to continue doing their jobs, which is killing stuff. If the healer isnt healing them when needed they arent doing their job, and its actually their fault if the quest takes longer, because now the melee has to do the healing AND the killing which takes longer.

Coulda taken a sorc over that cleric who refuses to heal. Better DPS and same healing result. Also much easier to find in the PUG scene.

What the "cleric in the chair" doesn't get is that while DP and BB are neat and everything, and while cometfall makes a cool 'boom!' noise, a good melee character is usually going to out DPS your 'divine warrior' by a LOT. And when surrounded by good melees, the 'divine warrior's' SPs are usually better spent keeping them swinging than anything else.

That's part of adapting to your team members to be a good team. My divines have carried PUGs on their backs across the finish line, and my divines have fueled hordes of ravenous @sskicking melees who lay waste to everything before them.

Good divines can do it all, and good players adapt to be what his/her team needs them to be regardless of class or role. Not just divines either, artis, bards, etc.



Coulda taken a sorc over that cleric who refuses to heal. Better DPS and same healing result. Also much easier to find in the PUG scene.

QFT.




In other sports, the dummy gets benched by the coach until he wises up. Soulstone into lava is the DDO equivalent of being benched.

Except you don't 'get benched' in a recreational pick up game. DDO pick up groups and 'first four/five' pick up games are similar many respects, one of which being you play out the game/quest with the players that showed up. That is generally their sole qualification: they showed up. If you don't like the way they play you get some water, 'sit the next one out,' and hope the next five are more to your style of play.




In the military, you don't let your companion suffer heatstroke. The first time, that is. If it happens again, you beat the heck out of him once you get back to base. If it happens a third time, you roll a live grenade into his tent. Read your Vietnam War history.

Sorry, I got my military experience from actually serving. I'm not very well versed in the pulp paperback post-Vietnam fantasies written by REMF never-weres that sell in airport kiosks in every flyover state in the union, so I can't really relate to that anecdote. (Actually it sounds like you are quoting a scene from the movie Casualties of War).

[Chai]

The only time I have not bothered to heal a melee or arcane for that matter is when they pull the "YOU MUST HEAL ME!!" or they are WF that did not bother with healers friend or healing amp. It is getting to where if there is a melee that is WF in the party I will not join up, if there is a barb in the party I will not join up. I would rather solo than babysit mana sinks.

The problem is not that divines are not wanting to heal, the problem is the people that believe that is all they should be doing during a quest.

Mana sync? What are you replacing the barbarian with? A time sync? How is "too many HP" bad? The mobs still do the same damage and the heals still heal for the same HP, so moar HP is better. I have also found that if all of the mobs are greater commanded or cometfalled to the ground, people dont harp about needing healing. On a case by case basis, if people are complaining the healer isnt keeping them alive, I have to ask what they are doing.

People harping about having to play as a team is getting old. Turbine made the game too easy, and this mentality of 6 people soloing rather than 6 people cooperating is a symptom of dumbing down the game to the point where running forward and swinging wins most of the time, and when it doesnt people blame the other 5 in the group. Yeah, we get it. Casters are OP, so now people want to play the "you need us but we dont need you" game. If this was a PnP setting and people had these kinds of reservations about cooperating, Id put the party into a scenario where they absolutely have to cooperate to win. Failure to do so = using the rest of the session to roll up new characters. In fact, this is how the old school DMG recommends dealing with that scenario.

[Postumus]

Mana sync? What are you replacing the barbarian with? A time sync? How is "too many HP" bad? The mobs still do the same damage and the heals still heal for the same HP, so moar HP is better. I have also found that if all of the mobs are greater commanded or cometfalled to the ground, people dont harp about needing healing. On a case by case basis, if people are complaining the healer isnt keeping them alive, I have to ask what they are doing.

People harping about having to play as a team is getting old. Turbine made the game too easy, and this mentality of 6 people soloing rather than 6 people cooperating is a symptom of dumbing down the game to the point where running forward and swinging wins most of the time, and when it doesnt people blame the other 5 in the group. Yeah, we get it. Casters are OP, so now people want to play the "you need us but we dont need you" game. If this was a PnP setting and people had these kinds of reservations about cooperating, Id put the party into a scenario where they absolutely have to cooperate to win. Failure to do so = using the rest of the session to roll up new characters. In fact, this is how the old school DMG recommends dealing with that scenario.

Yep. Team vs group of individuals.

[susiedupfer]

The quote I used of Postumus' was regarding his suggestions of using wands to cure other people's blindness, curse, disease, etc. It in no way referred to healing them. I, of course, heal people who are not half a dungeon away, around corners, etc. I do apologize for not referring back to the original quote, it lead to misunderstandings. He knew what it referred to, but ignored it, which led everyone else astray.

[Chai]

Heres the way I look at these scenarios. Yes this is subjective because I will be describing my playstyles somewhat. I play DDO 2 different ways.

1. Permadeath. In permadeath, the entire "im not going to use tools I have available, because everyone else should have those tools and use them too" argument doesnt stand. If 1 person dips below ~50% HP or so they are usually being healed by anyone who has the ability to cast a cure, use a wand, etc...In the years Ive played PD style, Ive never seen an issue where someone is making excuses for not keeping someone else alive.

2. TR zerg. The big questions here - who is in the group? How can we get this XP as fast as possible? Where do I fit into this formula when playing my divine?

Examples:

If its me on my FvS, and theres a bunch of heavy beaters with lots of HP, I can heal and CC and that will be the fastest way to victory. The better my CC works, the less I have to heal.

If its me on my FvS and we got a bunch of utilitarians - a druid, a bard, an artificer - im basically a damage dealer / instakiller. They can all heal themselves and its built into their class.

If its me and a bunch of casters, im pretty much CCing and nuking, as most casters can heal themselves.

Mixed group. My FvS, a caster, a barbarian, a bard, a rogue, and monk. How well my other spells work determines how much I heal others. If cometfall puts everyone to the ground, I dont need to heal much. If its harder to CC, I may have to control the situation with blade barriers (depending on the type of mob AI). If its a bunch of archers the melee will usually have a field day with stuns and huge damage numbers. If its melee AI we can run it through BBs til its dead.

Note that nothing in here says anything about babysitting: As a divine we do one of two things. Make it so people dont take damage (proactive prevention) or heal damage taken (reactive mitigation). If there are people in a group who are complaining the divine isnt healing enough, how well is their proactive prevention working out. If they were doing this well, they dont have to heal as much to begin with. If they are not proactively preventing damage, and they are not reactively healing, what are they doing?

Killing and CC = proactive damage prevention - not much healing of others needed when this works.
Healing = reactive mitigation - Ok so the cc or killing didnt work so youre contributing by healing others who have better tools to deal with specific mobs.
Neither = people dying and complaining the divine isnt healing. People run to the boards to post about how they arent your babysitter when playing their cleric / FvS. Hilarity ensues. Popcorn for all.

[Mubjon]

Mana sync? What are you replacing the barbarian with? A time sync? How is "too many HP" bad? The mobs still do the same damage and the heals still heal for the same HP, so moar HP is better. I have also found that if all of the mobs are greater commanded or cometfalled to the ground, people dont harp about needing healing. On a case by case basis, if people are complaining the healer isnt keeping them alive, I have to ask what they are doing.

I never stated anything about HP, and no more HP is not always the best thing. What is the point of having 1K HP if a heal only hits you for 150 when is it hitting the other melees and arcanes for 300+?

And no Sync means in tune with, a sink means a place to put waste. Mana sink is someone that takes up all the mana you have and leads to a bad time for all.

How about people that are being kept alive, but still complaining because the Cleric is doing something other than sit there waiting for them to take damage? You keep going on and on about how the cleric is not healing, when we are talking about the cleric doing what a cleric is capable of doing and healing is not needed 100% of the time in 99.9% of the content in this game.

Being in a group where everyone is at 75% or more and the cleric has an aura up and running complaining about not getting a heal is a problem. Having the barb run off ahead of the group to die to the first group and then saying, WHERE IS THE CLERIC! is the problem. The problem is not clerics not healing, the problem is people believing they have the right to demand that another person dedicate their time and resources to making sure they have fun.

Divines do not need to group up to complete the content, taking an extra 5 minutes to run through a quest is nothing compared to dealing with those that wish to control other people.


People harping about having to play as a team is getting old. Turbine made the game too easy, and this mentality of 6 people soloing rather than 6 people cooperating is a symptom of dumbing down the game to the point where running forward and swinging wins most of the time, and when it doesnt people blame the other 5 in the group. Yeah, we get it. Casters are OP, so now people want to play the "you need us but we dont need you" game. If this was a PnP setting and people had these kinds of reservations about cooperating, Id put the party into a scenario where they absolutely have to cooperate to win. Failure to do so = using the rest of the session to roll up new characters. In fact, this is how the old school DMG recommends dealing with that scenario.

Never have we stated that it should not be a team effort, what is being said is that there are better uses of resources than keeping up people that do not care enough about their own characters to have to rely on the ability of someone else for their fun.

[Postumus]

The quote I used of Postumus' was regarding his suggestions of using wands to cure other people's blindness, curse, disease, etc. It in no way referred to healing them. I, of course, heal people who are not half a dungeon away, around corners, etc. I do apologize for not referring back to the original quote, it lead to misunderstandings. He knew what it referred to, but ignored it, which led everyone else astray.

I did? Do you mean this post below?




Team play implies that I am going to do my very best to help the group accomplish our goal. It implies that you are also. It does not in any manner imply that I must fix all the ills that you can fix by clicking one time on your hotbar.

I honestly thought this post implies you do not carry wands to remove your other team members curses, disease, blindness, etc. and that you do not fix any of these ills you think a self-sufficient player should be able to fix for themselves, and that you took umbrage when they asked you to do so.

If I misinterpreted your post and you actually do carry these wands & clickies as a back up to help out your fellow teammates when they don't have pots or are busy fighting and don't notice they are cursed (etc), then I sincerely apologize.

For me, being a team member means I am prepared to back up my team using every means at my disposal. On divines or arcanes it sometimes that means I carry or swap to spells I personally don't need to help the party. On all characters it means I carry and am willing to use the wands/scrolls/clickies that will help me and the group.

[~Susie1262]

I do not indeed carry wands, scrolls, etc to cure other's blindness, curses, diseases, poisons, stat damages. I did so when I was a new cleric player, and knew no better. I said before that I carry pots. I purchase the ones in the marketplace so that I can hand someone a stack if they do not have any. I do heal, well and often. However, removing those problems are as easy for them to remove with potions as they are for me to remove mine. I use those pots for me also. Using the same mechanism: clicking on the hotbar. Utilization of a potion does NOT remove weapons in your hands. It does not require two item changes. Using a wand does. Using a scroll does. And, since I have no way to easily see someone's disease or stat damage, it is much more efficient for them to take care of it than for me. It then follows logic that if they can swig a pot to fix their disease and stat damage so easily, then they can swig a pot to remove their curse, poison, blindness also. I do often, on my FVS, carry greater restore scrolls(on my clerics, I use the spell) to remove their and my neg levels, as there are no easily obtained pots that I know of. I do not expect them to carry CSW pots in the thousands that it would take to bring them back to full health at higher levels. That would be ludicrous. I heal. I like healing. I just do not feel it is my responsibility to fix something on them that takes them the same 2 clicks on a mouse it takes me to fix on myself.(one click on the pot, one click on the next person to target)

I am sort of glad there are still people like you around to heal the newer players who honestly can't afford the pots. Someone needs to do it. However, you need to question whether you are truly doing them a favor by not encouraging them to be able to take care of problems that a divine hireling will not handle for them. I know, from recently doing a sorc life, that the AI of some divine hirelings has been seriously stepped up, and some do remove poison, etc, but not all do. And some of them don't even heal. Even if you tell them to repeatedly while your, and others red bars drop.

Now, where you got the idea that I took umbrage when asked to heal, I do not know. I am not one of those divines who refuse to heal, and screech at the players who have the nerve to expect them to. If I am in a BYOH IP group, I do expect you to make your way to me, and stay within healing range if you WANT to be healed. I will not tolerate being screamed at to HJEAL under any circumstances. Be polite. It is YOUR responsibility to do what you need to to get healed. This includes drinking curse removal pots.

I did explicitly state that I bought the marketplace pots to be able to share them. I want them to have the tools they need to help the team succeed. I am more than happy to share resources to help the team. I usually hand them a stack of 20 of each pot, just in case they need some of everything. If they run out, I am more than happy to share more. But, I only have 100 of each on hand, and if I am sharing with more than one person, that goes fast. However, since I raid heal a lot(and I mean a LOT), then removing curses, poisons, diseases, etc, on everyone becomes a time management nightmare that leads to deaths and wipes. That is why people should be carrying their own pots. To allow the healers time to HEAL. I truly believe it is kinder to start as you mean to go on. It is not kind for people to run 6 man quests for 16-18 levels with someone removing every exhaustion, poison, curse, etc, then throw them into the raid scene completely unprepared for having to manage their own. This is what leads to healers screaming at people for not having curse pots. This is what turns people off playing.

[Postumus]

How about people that are being kept alive, but still complaining because the Cleric is doing something other than sit there waiting for them to take damage? You keep going on and on about how the cleric is not healing, when we are talking about the cleric doing what a cleric is capable of doing and healing is not needed 100% of the time in 99.9% of the content in this game.



You are the only one (and perhaps Kravek) who are resorting to this type of hyperbole. Nearly everyone in this thread who has argued that the divine SHOULD heal his teammates has also stated that it is only ONE of the many things he/she can do while in a party. A cleric/FVS can CC, fight, use offensive spells, and heal.


Look at Chai's response above. He explains it well.


Look, if you don't like healing people as a divine, then don't. I don't care if you are a team player or not. But the folks disagreeing with the OP's premise that clerics are treated like 'slaves' aren't wrong, and I have very, very RARELY seen this type of attitude from another player.

If anything, I get thanked for providing healing and curse/poison/stat damage removal in addition to my CC, etc.

[Postumus]

I do not indeed carry wands, scrolls, etc to cure other's blindness, curses, diseases, poisons, stat damages. I did so when I was a new cleric player, and knew no better. I said before that I carry pots. I purchase the ones in the marketplace so that I can hand someone a stack if they do not have any.

It is entirely possible I am confusing you with susiedupfer or you are confusing my responses to susiedupfer as responses to you. Unless you are both forum accounts which confuses me.




Now, where you got the idea that I took umbrage when asked to heal, I do not know. I am not one of those divines who refuse to heal, and screech at the players who have the nerve to expect them to.

Well, I was referring to susidupfer's sentence here:


If you are simply stuck on the opinion that clerics/fvs/druids/bards/wizards/sorcs are there to buff you, fix your boo-boos, and otherwise serve you, why did you not just say so?

To me that doesn't sound like someone who is happy to heal or help someone else. If you are a different person than Susiedupfer, than I was not responding to you.



I will not tolerate being screamed at to HJEAL under any circumstances.

I think the consensus in this thread is that people should not act in this manner. The debate is about how frequently this actually occurs.


It is YOUR responsibility to do what you need to to get healed. This includes drinking curse removal pots.

I somewhat disagree. Sometimes it is difficult for someone in the frenzy of a skirmish to notice they have been cursed. If someone has first person view on, then they most likely will not notice.

I do think your policy of passing out the store potions is an excellent one. I normally just buy them from the guild vendor out of habit, but this seems like a better way to go than using wands and seems like a realistic way to teach someone the value of pots who does not appreciate them yet.



This is what leads to healers screaming at people for not having curse pots. This is what turns people off playing.

I can't recall ever experiencing this. I'm not sure I've ever been in a group where someone was actually screaming at someone else... maybe just screaming 'get that guy!' Is this more of a raid mentality? I run far fewer raids than anything else.

[Ushurak]

I have played a Human FS all the way to 25 and completely through 2 EDs and enough through others to get a few fate points.

I played up to a point as a healer/caster until I realized it was turning into pure healer by nature of players knowing that I had heals and just not doing what they otherwise would have done had I not been there to babysit.

I then switched to pure caster with a side of mass heals with an occasional hint that it may have been in a players best interest to pick themselves up some Cure Blindness pots or what-have-you from the guild vendor.

That didn't work either, so I did a LR and went pure TWF (entire line of feats) and I only throw mass heals on myself when I need it. If you are their to get the heal then great, if not, too bad...I am now a self healing melee.

With that said...If I see other party members "paying their fair share" (I REALLY HATE that terminology; but it does fit here) then I will go out of my way to heal/buff them. Mostly people that run with me know already that I am not a healer though and do not expect it.

I have also all but shelved him and mostly play my main (Sorcbot).
I have zero healing amp...not because I solo while in a group but because I only have "x" amount of enhancement points to spend to make my Sorc as powerful as can be, and if after 3 lives and 4 years of playing, tweaking and learning every possible nuance of a Sorcbot, I absolutely NEED a heal from the Divine then I was dead anyway.

After my 3rd life I find that I die for two reasons: 1) I got stupid and there is no such thing as a necklace of proof against stupid and 2) I rolled a 1 on something like Disintegrate and take a full on one-shot death to the crotch...no healer can heal that either.

The conversation goes like this:

(I have less than full red-bar and healer heals me):
Divine: says nothing or says politely (but suggestively) "No healers friend?" or "Wow, it takes alot to heal you!"
Me: whether something was said or not "Yeah, I know...no healers friend. Don't waste your SP on me, keep the others alive. Just res me if I go down...sorry I didn't say something earlier."

I carry my own curse/disease/blind/poison etc pots (as should everyone).
I find myself having to use MY pots on other players that are TRs...this is ludicrous and disrespectful to the entire party...especially in a "Be Self-Sufficient/BYOH" group.

I have been in PLENTY of groups where not ONE single thank you was given to the Divine for helping keep the party alive, yet I said thanks when it was all over even though I didn't get a heal. WHY? Because he/she kept the others from dying and costing me 10% xp.
I have been in plenty of groups where EVERYONE was thankful to the healer and was passing them plat or pots for their efforts. There really are some good people out there...but the bad situations stick harder (even if there are fewer of them) than the good ones do.

Parties are great...been to and hosted plenty; but you will remember one knife in your gut more often than you will remember all of the happy parties put together.

Please be considerate of your local Divine...they just may save you and your parties asses.

[Chai]

I never stated anything about HP, and no more HP is not always the best thing. What is the point of having 1K HP if a heal only hits you for 150 when is it hitting the other melees and arcanes for 300+?

And no Sync means in tune with, a sink means a place to put waste. Mana sink is someone that takes up all the mana you have and leads to a bad time for all.

How about people that are being kept alive, but still complaining because the Cleric is doing something other than sit there waiting for them to take damage? You keep going on and on about how the cleric is not healing, when we are talking about the cleric doing what a cleric is capable of doing and healing is not needed 100% of the time in 99.9% of the content in this game.

But am I really going on and on about cleric not healing? NOPE. What I am doing is asking why those people need to be healed in the first place. You say the cleric can do all these other things, and youre right, HOWEVER, I have to question the clerics effectiveness of doing those OTHER things like killing, CCing, etc....if people NEED heals.


Being in a group where everyone is at 75% or more and the cleric has an aura up and running complaining about not getting a heal is a problem. Having the barb run off ahead of the group to die to the first group and then saying, WHERE IS THE CLERIC! is the problem. The problem is not clerics not healing, the problem is people believing they have the right to demand that another person dedicate their time and resources to making sure they have fun.

The problem is party communication, which includes but is not limited to the cleric. The LFM likely wasnt specific about what kind of players you wanted, if you got a couple of flower sniffers and a couple zergers in the same group. I dont see these types of issues where people are screaming bloody murder for heals, because I know how to attract players with a similar playstyle while politely warding off those players whose playstyle would not match mine.


Divines do not need to group up to complete the content, taking an extra 5 minutes to run through a quest is nothing compared to dealing with those that wish to control other people.

Theres that "you need me but I dont need you" attitude I was talking about.

It would be much more than a 5 min difference if I got all the heavy beaters in the group that you didnt want in the first place, because if the fastest way to complete is to heal those guys to victory, an adaptable divine who is willing to alter their play to the situation at hand would take that route and crush the quest while the stubborn divine who only built their toon to do specific things which does not include babysitting others would have a tougher time.


Never have we stated that it should not be a team effort, what is being said is that there are better uses of resources than keeping up people that do not care enough about their own characters to have to rely on the ability of someone else for their fun.

You didnt state it shouldnt be a team effort? Actually yes you did, in this very post.


Divines do not need to group up to complete the content, taking an extra 5 minutes to run through a quest is nothing compared to dealing with those that wish to control other people.

Boom.

I also note that you define "those that wish to control other people as "barbarians and warforged" - who you will refuse to group with due to their class or race choice respectively, as if that sole play choice somehow indicates how they treat divines.


It is getting to where if there is a melee that is WF in the party I will not join up, if there is a barb in the party I will not join up. I would rather solo than babysit mana sinks.

Boom.

I dont see this plethora of people who do not care about their own character enough to help themselves, but then again like I stated before, Ive learned the fine art of putting up LFMs that attract the people who play the same way I do. I also lead, rather than just put together the group and expect everyone else to just know what the game plan is. If youre running into ALOT of people who are screaming about lack of heals, I suspect group formation and leadership is under par in those situations. Yeah even with good leadership you run into a few turds now and then, but they are the exception and not the rule, and are not nearly enough to prompt coming to the boards and ranting about how other people suck when I play my divines.

[erikbozelie]

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae225/dangreco/General/AriseThreadLongSinceDead.jpg

[SirValentine]

...an adaptable divine who is willing to alter their play to the situation at hand...
<snip>
...the stubborn divine who only built their toon to do specific things...


I think one of the issues is the lack of adaptable MELEE who are willing to alter THEIR play to the situation at hand. Instead, divines often run into that stubborn MELEE who only built THEIR toon to do specific things.

The other issue, of course, is fun. Completing a quest faster is nice and all, but I'd rather take TWICE as long and enjoy doing it than run it twice as fast playing babysitter to disrespectful I-HAVE-SUPER-DPS melees who have no concern about damage mitigation, using crowd control, etc., let alone any self-healing or even healing amp, and can't even manage to drink a poison potion.

Not efficiency, but FUN.

[susiedupfer]

I think one of the issues is the lack of adaptable MELEE who are willing to alter THEIR play to the situation at hand. Instead, divines often run into that stubborn MELEE who only built THEIR toon to do specific things.

The other issue, of course, is fun. Completing a quest faster is nice and all, but I'd rather take TWICE as long and enjoy doing it than run it twice as fast playing babysitter to disrespectful I-HAVE-SUPER-DPS melees who have no concern about damage mitigation, using crowd control, etc., let alone any self-healing or even healing amp, and can't even manage to drink a poison potion.

Not efficiency, but FUN.

This! Exactly this!

[susiedupfer]

Yes, Susie1262=susiedupfer. I have one forum account I can only use while in the game. I have one that I can only use when out of the game. Do not ask me how or why. I have tried everything I can think of to be able to use one in both situations. I can't get it fixed.

Yes, raid healing is a whole different world than quest healing. I now understand much better where you are coming from. I do understand why/how you manage doing all the curse removal, etc. I did LR's on two clerics to make them suitable for raid healing back in the day. Raid healing is that different.

As I said previously, I do not consider it kind, or the mark of a good "healer" to remove all the potion removable ills of party members for 16+ levels, only for them to find out the hard way that they are suddenly expected to learn to watch for and manage drinking pots in the middle of the boss fight in their first raids. It is much better, IMO, to start training them as soon as they get to harbor that they need to start carrying and using these. That way they have the muscle memory, and the experience watching for those nasty problems to handle using a pot without disrupting their melee overmuch. I do this by having pots on every toon , every TR life, that I can share with party members. I will even take new players to marketplace and show them where to buy them. It changes their whole gaming experience. I think it also decreases that horrible resentment that some melee have for healers. That I-have-to-have-someone-to-heal-me, but-I-don't-have-to-like-it thing. This puts the ability to manage some of that into their own hands. This also allows them to utilize hirelings . (because there are so few healing-capable toons now)

[JasonJi72]

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae225/dangreco/General/AriseThreadLongSinceDead.jpg

I think your version of a long dead thread differs from mine. Love the pic though.

Regarding fixing ailments. Usually I pretend not to hear them, or simply say drink a potion. If they continue to whine, I may throw a burst or two if I am on a cleric. On any other character, I don't even slow down. Situationally of course. Character deaths are actually a very good educational tool. "yeah, well that was pretty dumb. note to self... wait for the rest of the group before fighting the beholders... got it."

For raids I will generally pick up a remove curse wand for the ones that need it. Yes, in raids, you are a healbot. Deal with it. :)

If I can remember to do so when I get off work, I will post my fvs' bio here. You guys would love it.

Disclaimer: I wrote it after several bad runs. Some say is it harsh but truthful. Personally, I find it hillarious. :)

Actually, I think I will start a "post your healer's bio" thread. That would be fun.

Cya around the playground!

[Chai]

I think one of the issues is the lack of adaptable MELEE who are willing to alter THEIR play to the situation at hand. Instead, divines often run into that stubborn MELEE who only built THEIR toon to do specific things.

The other issue, of course, is fun. Completing a quest faster is nice and all, but I'd rather take TWICE as long and enjoy doing it than run it twice as fast playing babysitter to disrespectful I-HAVE-SUPER-DPS melees who have no concern about damage mitigation, using crowd control, etc., let alone any self-healing or even healing amp, and can't even manage to drink a poison potion.

Not efficiency, but FUN.

I dont see this large number of melee who will not adapt as yourself and the OP suggest. If you are, then as I stated before I suspect the group formation and leadership were under par for the group. If you want to take your time in a quest, and you end up with 2 zergers in each group all day who just dont listen, whoever is putting the LFM up for your group is suspect, and needs to change the wording of it to ward off unwanted zergers. Trust me, if you put "forced cooperation group" or "teamwork, stay together" in the LFM, they wont join.

People want to make it a one sided issue, and its not by a long shot. The issue is people dont put up LFMs that attract what they want them to attract, and they dont lead - and expect everyone to just know what eachother's playstyle is from the get go, which doesnt work. If these type of playstyle conflicts are happening frequently as suggested by these "lack of people who care about their own toon" statements being made, its the leadership of the party, and not the zergers or the flower sniffers, who are to blame.

[Karavek]

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae225/dangreco/General/AriseThreadLongSinceDead.jpg

You clearly lack a grasp on what a necro thead is. Its a thread that has had 0 posting activity for at least a month. otherwise its just a thread bump.

good way to show yourself to be ignorant of posting rules and the terms that go with them.

I myself never necro a thread and usually put a proper necro thread bring in party of divines to bring it down asap.

[Karavek]

I dont see this large number of melee who will not adapt as yourself and the OP suggest. If you are, then as I stated before I suspect the group formation and leadership were under par for the group. If you want to take your time in a quest, and you end up with 2 zergers in each group all day who just dont listen, whoever is putting the LFM up for your group is suspect, and needs to change the wording of it to ward off unwanted zergers. Trust me, if you put "forced cooperation group" or "teamwork, stay together" in the LFM, they wont join.

People want to make it a one sided issue, and its not by a long shot. The issue is people dont put up LFMs that attract what they want them to attract, and they dont lead - and expect everyone to just know what eachother's playstyle is from the get go, which doesnt work. If these type of playstyle conflicts are happening frequently as suggested by these "lack of people who care about their own toon" statements being made, its the leadership of the party, and not the zergers or the flower sniffers, who are to blame.

sorry but no, the person forming the group shouldnt have to go through sucha head ache. Its why LFMs and pugging in general has always been such a **** shoot on DDO, too many play styles, to many differing views, all crammed together on servers with no rhyme or reason. WE NEED servers labeled hard core, casual, even PD and RP servers to help players live in a server of like minded players rather then have endless conflict occur as has long been one of the biggest issues on DDO.

I have been on MMO longer then DDO has been around. On my favored game City of Heroes I never hesitate to pug, lead, start task forces etc. Because there no dependency on specific classes exist. they can be helpful but are not ever essential. Every warrior class has the potential to self heal, and self rez, infact the power sets there lacking that are the rarely taken for other then flavor gimp sets.

In DDO due to the endless drama that makes every pug a potential head ache I choose to play alone far more often then group not because I dont want to have a group, I just dont want to have to have a group. Because I can enjoy even a pure cleric solo and my enjoyment of the game is ruined by even one person expecting me to do something for them rather then focus on the action. i am forced to not join groups I might otherwise of joined.

Just today i was soloing some challenges in House C when I get a tell asking me if i am doing challenges. I say yes I am soloing them atm. They ask if id like to join a group doing the same one I am running. As soon as I join someone goes finally a healer for us. The group is all barrbs fighters and monks. I drop group and go back to soloing with out a word. The guy who invited me sends me some rude tells, as well as a few other members of the group when i respond to him that I dont log in to watch others play and suggest they bring a nannybot.

Later I get a tell asking me if id like to join a normal shroud since I am sitting on 20 atm. I say sorry I dont use GS items ever off of principle and they go what? Start harping on me that I must be some newb. I go on to twist the knife further and say even if i had wanted to I dont flag for shroud as i avoid the quests out there except RWTD as its the only one out there I enjoy.

That really set them off calling me all sorts of names for choosing to run challenges solo rather then be properly raid ready and willing to support other players. And that right there was the point made by him, that created my own view. i wont be expected of, demanded to, nor even want to be associating with others who think it is good game design or group play to look at someone as support.

Clerics are not support. If any class in end game is support its the army of grunt soldier barbs and fighters who are never in short supply nor waited upon to join nor demanded upon by others except when asked to do for themselves what they could be it timely or not.

If I can enjoy going solo and taking 5 or 10 min longer a run, then why cant barbs enjoy taht bit of slowness when they have to chug pots down due to building for HP bloat?

I dont care to zerg, I dont care to meta game, I dont care to give nor hear constant spoilers about a quest on the off chance there is a first timer who deserves the chance to be surprised for good or ill. I dont call people yelling instructions good leaders but dictators. I dont want people too slow of wit who NEED constant instruction, Nor people who over think every step of the dungeon.

Adventurers live in the moment on a razors edge trusting in being prepared for anything. If you want to lead become a shepard, if you want to follow go join an army. A member of the social class known as adventurer has no king, no country, and no commander. They make every tongue in the tavern wag with their latest conquest and keep rulers up at night wondering if their vault or ancestors tomb will be the next plundered and their royal jewels used to buy a round for all in the neighboring countries bars.

[erikbozelie]

You clearly lack a grasp on what a necro thead is. Its a thread that has had 0 posting activity for at least a month. otherwise its just a thread bump.

good way to show yourself to be ignorant of posting rules and the terms that go with them.

I myself never necro a thread and usually put a proper necro thread bring in party of divines to bring it down asap.

yeah sorry, it was meant for the crazy clerical sp thread currently resurected.
I made a mistake... i am only human.

[Chai]

sorry but no, the person forming the group shouldnt have to go through sucha head ache. Its why LFMs and pugging in general has always been such a **** shoot on DDO, too many play styles, to many differing views, all crammed together on servers with no rhyme or reason. WE NEED servers labeled hard core, casual, even PD and RP servers to help players live in a server of like minded players rather then have endless conflict occur as has long been one of the biggest issues on DDO.

Youre hurting yourself by not taking responsibility for finding players who play like you do when leading. You are also creating a lose lose situation for all involved when zergers end up in groups with role players and flower sniffers etc. The best course of action is to asusme that responsibility as a leader and actually LEAD. Tell people what kind of group its going to be.

Labeled segregated servers are not the answer. Youre not the only MMO player that has been playing since the dinosaur age. Many MMOs have tried this and it DOES_NOT_WORK. All this accomplishes is gives players the ability to cheese off other players. "If you dont play the way I do, you should be on the flower sniffer server" becomes the new motto. Do you really want to hear: "hey cleric, if you dont want to hJeal mEh, you should go play on the solo server with all the other noobs".

No sir you are incorrect on this issue. Turbine is not responsible for coding their game to manage your social experience. You are responsible for shaping that experience.


I have been on MMO longer then DDO has been around. On my favored game City of Heroes I never hesitate to pug, lead, start task forces etc. Because there no dependency on specific classes exist. they can be helpful but are not ever essential. Every warrior class has the potential to self heal, and self rez, infact the power sets there lacking that are the rarely taken for other then flavor gimp sets.

In DDO due to the endless drama that makes every pug a potential head ache I choose to play alone far more often then group not because I dont want to have a group, I just dont want to have to have a group. Because I can enjoy even a pure cleric solo and my enjoyment of the game is ruined by even one person expecting me to do something for them rather then focus on the action. i am forced to not join groups I might otherwise of joined.

Having issues with expectations of others and what others expect of you? Those arent solved by segregating people to other server. Those are solved by being a LEADER. You make the group, you get to set your gameplan and let everyone else know how the run is going to go. Yes folks, it is THAT EASY.


Just today i was soloing some challenges in House C when I get a tell asking me if i am doing challenges. I say yes I am soloing them atm. They ask if id like to join a group doing the same one I am running. As soon as I join someone goes finally a healer for us. The group is all barrbs fighters and monks. I drop group and go back to soloing with out a word. The guy who invited me sends me some rude tells, as well as a few other members of the group when i respond to him that I dont log in to watch others play and suggest they bring a nannybot..

Later I get a tell asking me if id like to join a normal shroud since I am sitting on 20 atm. I say sorry I dont use GS items ever off of principle and they go what? Start harping on me that I must be some newb. I go on to twist the knife further and say even if i had wanted to I dont flag for shroud as i avoid the quests out there except RWTD as its the only one out there I enjoy.

That really set them off calling me all sorts of names for choosing to run challenges solo rather then be properly raid ready and willing to support other players. And that right there was the point made by him, that created my own view. i wont be expected of, demanded to, nor even want to be associating with others who think it is good game design or group play to look at someone as support.

Clerics are not support. If any class in end game is support its the army of grunt soldier barbs and fighters who are never in short supply nor waited upon to join nor demanded upon by others except when asked to do for themselves what they could be it timely or not.

If I can enjoy going solo and taking 5 or 10 min longer a run, then why cant barbs enjoy taht bit of slowness when they have to chug pots down due to building for HP bloat?

I dont care to zerg, I dont care to meta game, I dont care to give nor hear constant spoilers about a quest on the off chance there is a first timer who deserves the chance to be surprised for good or ill. I dont call people yelling instructions good leaders but dictators. I dont want people too slow of wit who NEED constant instruction, Nor people who over think every step of the dungeon.

Adventurers live in the moment on a razors edge trusting in being prepared for anything. If you want to lead become a shepard, if you want to follow go join an army. A member of the social class known as adventurer has no king, no country, and no commander. They make every tongue in the tavern wag with their latest conquest and keep rulers up at night wondering if their vault or ancestors tomb will be the next plundered and their royal jewels used to buy a round for all in the neighboring countries bars.

2 issues with all these examples.

1. You should have rolled up a sorc. More offense than your divine and the same potential for healing others that coincides with your chosen playstyle of not wanting to heal others. You obviously do not want to heal others, yet you play the class that is the best at doing it. What did you expect from people who play an MMO based on a forced cooperation game? Playing a cleric and being offended about people asking you to heal them is akin to being a fire fighter and watching peoples houses burn down. Should have picked a different profession.

2. You also need to accept responsibility for managing your own gaming experience. Youve outlined a few examples where you have issues with other peoples expectations when they invite you to their groups. When you lead the group, you set the expectations and get to take control of your own gaming experience.

I am absolutely correct on this issue. How do I know that? I dont get offended at other peoples expectations when they differ from my expectations. They can play how they want, and if I do not agree with their expectations, I put up my own LFM and then I get to set the expectations. Making those expectations known BEFORE people join attracts people to my groups who actually want to be in the group under those expectations. This is a win / win situation for me AND for the people whose group I didnt join because our two playstyles didnt mesh. If I would not have enjoyed playing under their rules, they would not have enjoyed having me play by different expectations than the rest of the group has. Managing my own play experience makes it better for everyone involved, including but not limited to myself.

[erikbozelie]

1. You should have rolled up a sorc. More offense than your divine and the same potential for healing others that coincides with your chosen playstyle of not wanting to heal others.


a sorc over dpsed most classes in the game,... so why roll a fighter when a soc overheals himself and overshaddows it in dps?

[Chai]

a sorc over dpsed most classes in the game,... so why roll a fighter when a soc overheals himself and overshaddows it in dps?

The fighter isnt refusing to play their class when they melee and take the damage for other squishier builds.

The cleric who refuses to heal is using half its resources. It would be the equivilent of rolling a melee and refusing to equip weapons.

[Ushurak]

The fighter isnt refusing to play their class when they melee and take the damage for other squishier builds.

This isn't by choice though; it is by design...they can't do anything other than fight.


The cleric who refuses to heal is using half its resources. It would be the equivilent of rolling a melee and refusing to equip weapons.

Wrong.

Healing is FAR less than half of a Clerics resources.
There is 1 cure/heal spell per level plus roughly 1 remove type spell per level.
Even if you factor in the remove spells as part of the healing genre of spells it would come to less than 20% of a Clerics/FS spells. This is IF they slotted EVERY SINGLE cure/heal/remove spell from level 1 all the way up...does anyone do that? It just seems that this 20% is what many want to confine the Divine classes to.

A melee that does not equip weapons is USELESS while a Divine that does not cast heals on everyone else is still FAR from useless.

If a Cleric doesn't wish to play nanny for the kindergartners, then look at him as the Wizard of the Divine classes.
If a FS doesn't wish to play nanny for the kindergartners, then look at him as the Sorc of the Divine classes.
Either way, your group is still gaining a powerful class and you should take advantage of it and just consider it another self sufficient player.

Either wait for a Divine that doesn't mind playing healbot or ask everyone else if they mind being self sufficient...this solves the issue...nobody's feelings get hurt, the party carries on, the quest gets completed, xp is gained...yadayadayada.

[Chai]

This isn't by choice though; it is by design...they can't do anything other than fight.

Rolling a class and choosing to play it poorly is a choice.


Wrong.

Healing is FAR less than half of a Clerics resources.

Wrong.

Refusing to play the defensive portion of your class is refusing to play half the class.


There is 1 cure/heal spell per level plus roughly 1 remove type spell per level.
Even if you factor in the remove spells as part of the healing genre of spells it would come to less than 20% of a Clerics/FS spells. This is IF they slotted EVERY SINGLE cure/heal/remove spell from level 1 all the way up...does anyone do that? It just seems that this 20% is what many want to confine the Divine classes to.

It doesnt matter how you quantify it with numbers of spells. Clerics really do 2 things.

1. Proactive damage prevention.
2. Reactive damage mitigation.

Refusing to do one of the above is refusing to play HALF_YOUR_CLASS. Shoulda just rolled a sorc.


A melee that does not equip weapons is USELESS while a Divine that does not cast heals on everyone else is still FAR from useless.

A cleric who doesnt heal is useless in a party slot. I could have filled that slot with a sorc or wizard and been done by now but instead I got a cleric who is trying to be DPS and nothing else.


If a Cleric doesn't wish to play nanny for the kindergartners, then look at him as the Wizard of the Divine classes.

If a FS doesn't wish to play nanny for the kindergartners, then look at him as the Sorc of the Divine classes
Either way, your group is still gaining a powerful class and you should take advantage of it and just consider it another self sufficient player.

A cleric played like a wizard and refusing to heal others is like playing a paladin and dreaming of doing fighter and barbarian DPS. The number of arcane looking for group is much larger, so why would I want to pull a cleric who refuses to heal into the group when I can grab an arcane who will dominate the content far more efficiently than the cleric would?


Either wait for a Divine that doesn't mind playing healbot or ask everyone else if they mind being self sufficient...this solves the issue...nobody's feelings get hurt, the party carries on, the quest gets completed, xp is gained...yadayadayada.

The issue is when a divine joins a group knowing full well what the group was looking for was a healer, than starts moaning about having to heal people, or just remains silent and doesnt heal people. They should have just soloed in the first place.

If a cleric wants to play total offense and no defense they certainly can choose to do so, but theres 5 or 6 other classes who do that better than they do already, and they are much easier to find for PUGs than clerics are. Why waste everyones time joining the group who was looking for a healer and then watch people who expected heals die off only to then pee and moan about how youre not their babysitter? It just doesnt add up. If someone wants to group often, play solely offense, and not heal anyone, they shouldnt be playing a divine.

[Inouk]

This isn't by choice though; it is by design...they can't do anything other than fight.



Wrong.

Healing is FAR less than half of a Clerics resources.
There is 1 cure/heal spell per level plus roughly 1 remove type spell per level.
Even if you factor in the remove spells as part of the healing genre of spells it would come to less than 20% of a Clerics/FS spells. This is IF they slotted EVERY SINGLE cure/heal/remove spell from level 1 all the way up...does anyone do that? It just seems that this 20% is what many want to confine the Divine classes to.

A melee that does not equip weapons is USELESS while a Divine that does not cast heals on everyone else is still FAR from useless.

If a Cleric doesn't wish to play nanny for the kindergartners, then look at him as the Wizard of the Divine classes.
If a FS doesn't wish to play nanny for the kindergartners, then look at him as the Sorc of the Divine classes.
Either way, your group is still gaining a powerful class and you should take advantage of it and just consider it another self sufficient player.

Either wait for a Divine that doesn't mind playing healbot or ask everyone else if they mind being self sufficient...this solves the issue...nobody's feelings get hurt, the party carries on, the quest gets completed, xp is gained...yadayadayada.

A divine caster that doesn't heal is like a rogue that has the trap and open skills but refuses to use them and just runs through traps using evasion, or a wizard that has crowd control and buffs (haste) but refuses to cast them, using only his nukes. Sure... you CAN be a CRAPPY teammate with half-a$$ed contribution, but why would you? Selfish pettiness I guess. And I love the dirisive "kindergartners", like anyone that didn't play a self-healing class or expects teamwork is childish, juvinile, or simple-minded; hubris in the extreme. Gee, I always wanted to group with egotistical, self-centered players who think they are pulling the party when they are the only one letting the party down and failing to carry their weight, I can't imagine why anyone feels differently...

[Postumus]

A cleric who doesnt heal is useless in a party slot. I could have filled that slot with a sorc or wizard and been done by now but instead I got a cleric who is trying to be DPS and nothing else.

Or even a hireling frankly. At high levels I'd rather have my panther hireling than a divine who has a bunch of restrictions and qualifications regarding whom and under what circumstances they will heal.




A cleric played like a wizard and refusing to heal others is like playing a paladin and dreaming of doing fighter and barbarian DPS. The number of arcane looking for group is much larger, so why would I want to pull a cleric who refuses to heal into the group when I can grab an arcane who will dominate the content far more efficiently than the cleric would?

Great point.




The issue is when a divine joins a group knowing full well what the group was looking for was a healer, than starts moaning about having to heal people, or just remains silent and doesnt heal people. They should have just soloed in the first place.




I think players who join BYOH lfms have more of a legitimate argument if they are suddenly asked to keep watch on a particularly squishy character or two.


But my favorite version of this is when a divine joins an LFM looking for a cleric or FvS and then complains about having to 'heal all your booboos.' Even though the LFM didn't state "need healer," it's pretty obvious the group was looking for someone who would be willing to do more than just throw BBs and DPs. To be fair, I've never actually experienced anyone doing this; I've only read about it in the forums.

[Postumus]

2. You also need to accept responsibility for managing your own gaming experience. Youve outlined a few examples where you have issues with other peoples expectations when they invite you to their groups. When you lead the group, you set the expectations and get to take control of your own gaming experience.

I am absolutely correct on this issue. How do I know that? I dont get offended at other peoples expectations when they differ from my expectations. They can play how they want, and if I do not agree with their expectations, I put up my own LFM and then I get to set the expectations. Making those expectations known BEFORE people join attracts people to my groups who actually want to be in the group under those expectations. This is a win / win situation for me AND for the people whose group I didnt join because our two playstyles didnt mesh. If I would not have enjoyed playing under their rules, they would not have enjoyed having me play by different expectations than the rest of the group has. Managing my own play experience makes it better for everyone involved, including but not limited to myself.

Absolutely dead on point. Very well said.

[Aashrym]

I think players who join BYOH lfms have more of a legitimate argument if they are suddenly asked to keep watch on a particularly squishy character or two.

I agree with this. Players should respect the LFM's notes.

I also would think it's stupid to watch the party DPS take a big nose dive by letting members of the group die just because the LFM stated byoh and healing capable classes would rather restrict their contributions in some way.

Healing is not an absolute yes or absolute no.

I don't think expecting all characters to try to have some degree of healing, even if it's just cure pots a bit of healing amp, is unreasonable and I also don't think asking a character capable of healing to provide it when it's necessary. Fortunately either extreme is something I almost never see in game, but tbh I do see the players expecting heals more than I every see players refusing to help heal. EDIT; I think that expecting some healing also makes sense for the simple fact some classes are clearly designed to be more capable of providing healing than others. That just seems like common sense to me.

[Entelech]

That analogy doesnt fly, because we dont live in a universe where people are almost dead and right back to full health again after one spell is cast. That barb doesnt have the flu - hes about to die from wounds that can be magically healed.

Right now pure melee out DPSs the shinola out of most other classes. It takes them the longest to heal themselves up back to full, which means they have to do something the heal capable class can do much better, in order to continue doing their jobs, which is killing stuff. If the healer isnt healing them when needed they arent doing their job, and its actually their fault if the quest takes longer, because now the melee has to do the healing AND the killing which takes longer.

Coulda taken a sorc over that cleric who refuses to heal. Better DPS and same healing result. Also much easier to find in the PUG scene.

How much DPS does your soulstone do?

A cleric that refuses to heal your melee toon can probably solo the quest himself. Can you?

How long does it take to complete the quest if you count the time spent with a "Need hjeals plzplzplz" LFM up and 5 people in the party?

You can talk about efficiency and DPS loss and how other people need to spend plat buying SP pots to heal you if they want to be team players, but you're missing the point. The point is that the Cleric is a player too. If you are free to choose to play an inept, defenseless, squishy DPS build that pulls aggro like a moron, they're free to forget where their "Save your Bacon" hotkey is.

Since free will cuts both ways, you have three basic options:

(1) Play a Hjealer yourself.

(2) Make a self-sufficient character.

(3) Make them WANT to remember where that "Save your Bacon" button is. That means treating them with respect and contributing more to the party than the resources you consume.

[Inouk]

How much DPS does your soulstone do?

A cleric that refuses to heal your melee toon can probably solo the quest himself. Can you?

How long does it take to complete the quest if you count the time spent with a "Need hjeals plzplzplz" LFM up and 5 people in the party?

You can talk about efficiency and DPS loss and how other people need to spend plat buying SP pots to heal you if they want to be team players, but you're missing the point. The point is that the Cleric is a player too. If you are free to choose to play an inept, defenseless, squishy DPS build that pulls aggro like a moron, they're free to forget where their "Save your Bacon" hotkey is.

Since free will cuts both ways, you have three basic options:

(1) Play a Hjealer yourself.

(2) Make a self-sufficient character.

(3) Make them WANT to remember where that "Save your Bacon" button is. That means treating them with respect and contributing more to the party than the resources you consume.

I don't think anyone is contending this point, we all agree that a bad player with a bad build, a bad play style, and a bad attitude should be left for dead (at least I think we do). The contention comes in when it's a good player (or group of) with reasonable builds (no, a reasonable build does NOT HAVE to be self reliant) that IS contributing to the group, that some in here seem to think should fend for their own healing. The bone of contention is that some of the healers in here seem to think the expectation when they join a group should be that they are a wizard in disguise and nobody will get or should expect heals or vital buffs from them when needed, cause they're just here to kill.

[Meetch1972]

There's been a couple of times in my main's previous (barb) life where [the/a] party member has fallen unconscious, bleeding...
1) Check own hps - if too low to dismiss rage, drink a pot (and repeat 1))
2) dismiss rage
3) equip curative cloak
4) target other toon, and use CLW clickie for the win!
5) Suggest they buy more cure pots and ask them to stay behind me if they don't want aggro - at least until we get to the next shrine.
6) Rage up!

For a while I carried 2 of those cloaks around... :D The last time I used it was somewhere in the high teens.

If I join a BYOH group as a heavy DPS, my healing value comes from beating the living snot out of everything I see fast enough that if there is a divine in the party who can heal, they actually have less reason to spend SPs and may even toss me a heal once in a while. And if that doesn't happen, between fights I can chug pots to top up HPs.

I've actually been quite surprised by the low level FVS hirelings (up to L4 so far) who can dish out a little damage AND juggle basic healing. I can usually switch them onto aggressive at the start, and they tend to know when they're in enough trouble to throw themselves cures the instant I grab the aggro of whatever's hitting them. It's a pity some other hirelings don't get how it's supposed to work. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Brec!)

[Entelech]

Well, if you join a PUG, you're rolling the dice and taking your chances.

You might get an utterly incompetent tank...or an utterly incompetent DPS build...or a trapmonkey that can't hit his DC's...

It seems fairly obvious that there might be inept Clerics out there too.

Not only that, but one of DDO's strengths is that your class icon often has very little to do with what your build actually does. I've got a Wizard build that solos Epic Elites as a Palemaster Undead Tank...and every so often he gets a blind invite to CC some random dungeon. His DC's are nowhere near that, even if he could plow through all the trash without CC.

If you see a Cleric icon and assume the player lives and breathes for the joy of reading Heal scrolls, that's YOUR ASSUMPTION. If the assumption turns out to be unfounded, that's your fault for not communicating clearly.

Trying to blame the Cleric for not living up to an expectation you put on them seems a bit childish, no?

[Mubjon]

But am I really going on and on about cleric not healing? NOPE. What I am doing is asking why those people need to be healed in the first place. You say the cleric can do all these other things, and youre right, HOWEVER, I have to question the clerics effectiveness of doing those OTHER things like killing, CCing, etc....if people NEED heals.



The problem is party communication, which includes but is not limited to the cleric. The LFM likely wasnt specific about what kind of players you wanted, if you got a couple of flower sniffers and a couple zergers in the same group. I dont see these types of issues where people are screaming bloody murder for heals, because I know how to attract players with a similar playstyle while politely warding off those players whose playstyle would not match mine.



Theres that "you need me but I dont need you" attitude I was talking about.

It would be much more than a 5 min difference if I got all the heavy beaters in the group that you didnt want in the first place, because if the fastest way to complete is to heal those guys to victory, an adaptable divine who is willing to alter their play to the situation at hand would take that route and crush the quest while the stubborn divine who only built their toon to do specific things which does not include babysitting others would have a tougher time.



You didnt state it shouldnt be a team effort? Actually yes you did, in this very post.



Boom.

I also note that you define "those that wish to control other people as "barbarians and warforged" - who you will refuse to group with due to their class or race choice respectively, as if that sole play choice somehow indicates how they treat divines.



Boom.

I dont see this plethora of people who do not care about their own character enough to help themselves, but then again like I stated before, Ive learned the fine art of putting up LFMs that attract the people who play the same way I do. I also lead, rather than just put together the group and expect everyone else to just know what the game plan is. If youre running into ALOT of people who are screaming about lack of heals, I suspect group formation and leadership is under par in those situations. Yeah even with good leadership you run into a few turds now and then, but they are the exception and not the rule, and are not nearly enough to prompt coming to the boards and ranting about how other people suck when I play my divines.

See there is that, "you are the problem" attitude that we have been discussing here.

I have even stated that this has happened very few times compared to the amount of time I play each day. So to keep on this meme that those stating it is going on believe this is the rule is a bit dishonest.

I have stated how I run my parties, and what groups I will not join. But, because it does not fit your narrow view of how a Divine should be ran I am the problem. I have already taken the steps to ensure I never run into those that are the typical problems in pugging.

Is that not exactly what you are stating about taking the game into your own hands? Or is it because I refuse to heal certain people that is a problem for you? Heck I even said in other threads that if a Cleric or Divine joins a group asking for a healer that they should be expected to heal. I however, refuse to join groups that list "Need Heals", "Need Healer" in the LFM description (unless it is a raid), because I am not willing to devote my entire time available to play the game to babysitting red bars in 95% of the content in DDO.

[Postumus]

Well, if you join a PUG, you're rolling the dice and taking your chances.

You might get an utterly incompetent tank...or an utterly incompetent DPS build...or a trapmonkey that can't hit his DC's...

It seems fairly obvious that there might be inept Clerics out there too.

Not only that, but one of DDO's strengths is that your class icon often has very little to do with what your build actually does. I've got a Wizard build that solos Epic Elites as a Palemaster Undead Tank...and every so often he gets a blind invite to CC some random dungeon. His DC's are nowhere near that, even if he could plow through all the trash without CC.

If you see a Cleric icon and assume the player lives and breathes for the joy of reading Heal scrolls, that's YOUR ASSUMPTION. If the assumption turns out to be unfounded, that's your fault for not communicating clearly.

Trying to blame the Cleric for not living up to an expectation you put on them seems a bit childish, no?

Except this thread is not about blaming clerics for not living up to expectations, it is about players who compare being a cleric in a PUG to SLAVERY.

I do not get this attitude and from what I see the OP continue to post regarding how horrible PUGs are, I am beggining to think he is the main problem. In almost three years I can only remember a few times where other players have been as obnoxious or as rude as he describes.

Yes I have been in the nightmare PUGs that take forever to complete, or the ones where the players make it harder on themselves than necessary, including some really stupid wipes, but it was usually met with the silent ragequit/DC and not anything abusive and certainly nothing remotely reminiscent of slavery, indentured servitude, or BDSM. Ok maybe just M.

[Ushurak]

Except this thread is not about blaming clerics for not living up to expectations, it is about players who compare being a cleric in a PUG to SLAVERY.

I do not get this attitude and from what I see the OP continue to post regarding how horrible PUGs are, I am beggining to think he is the main problem. In almost three years I can only remember a few times where other players have been as obnoxious or as rude as he describes.

Yes I have been in the nightmare PUGs that take forever to complete, or the ones where the players make it harder on themselves than necessary, including some really stupid wipes, but it was usually met with the silent ragequit/DC and not anything abusive and certainly nothing remotely reminiscent of slavery, indentured servitude, or BDSM. Ok maybe just M.

This ^

The biggest thing I had to overcome when I started playing DDO was my assumptions.
I constantly got the props knocked out from under me by wrongly assuming that PnP game mechanics/rules/playstyle etc would directly transpose to DDO...WOW did I ever get an eye opener.

The simplest solution is for those that feel that a Divine should be a conformist, non-free thinking player is to straight up ask them in tell when they apply for the LFM if they are willing to play nannybot and if (GOD FORBID) they are a non-conformist, free thinker...JUST DO NOT LET THEM JOIN! No harm, no foul.

In my Human FS bio it reads:
So, you thought I was going to heal you!
Sorry about your luck!

Admittedly though, I am courteous enough to let the PL know straight up upon joining that I am not a healer and will not play healer. I am a full line TWF, self buffing, self healing melee that can bring as much pain as the rest of the group. If, by chance there are other party members standing around me when I cast a mass cure then good for them (which means they better be close to the thickest part of the fight); but my heals are ALWAYS centered on me.

I was planning on doing a LR a couple weeks back and going back to full caster but after all of the animus I have seen on the forums lately being directed towards Divines...I simply refuse.

BTW - Except in a full on zergfest, I haven't actually seen a Divine refuse to heal another member that truly needs it...at the very least they will throw enough on the endangered player to keep them in the HP safety zone so they can take care of themselves.

Even on my Sorcbot, if I notice another Arcane-bot getting too low on HP I will throw him a Recon; but just because I have maxed recon line and a ring of the Artifice does not make me Robot-nanny nor will I play buff-bot.

[Entelech]

Except this thread is not about blaming clerics for not living up to expectations, it is about players who compare being a cleric in a PUG to SLAVERY.

I do not get this attitude and from what I see the OP continue to post regarding how horrible PUGs are, I am beggining to think he is the main problem. In almost three years I can only remember a few times where other players have been as obnoxious or as rude as he describes.

Yes I have been in the nightmare PUGs that take forever to complete, or the ones where the players make it harder on themselves than necessary, including some really stupid wipes, but it was usually met with the silent ragequit/DC and not anything abusive and certainly nothing remotely reminiscent of slavery, indentured servitude, or BDSM. Ok maybe just M.

Sigh...

Slavery may be an overstatement, but an understandable one. In those three years of PuGing, were you a Cleric?

I played a FvS healer to 20 as my first character to cap, and started a Cleric after I'd capped my Wizard. I got the Cleric to level 7 before I got so disgusted I retired both toons and haven't logged them in except as bank mules since.

Pickup groups in the Harbor seemed to have a jerk in them who treated you like you were some Hireling AI about one time in three. And the straw that broke the camel's back was a Warforged Barbarian with no AC, no Healer's Friend, Intimidate, and the delusion that a large pool of hitpoints made him the ideal tank for Irestone Elite (at level).

Not only was the dope sucking in so much damage that I could not cycle my Cure spells (Light, Moderate, Serious and Critical) fast enough to keep up, but he was typing insults at me in battle. When he zerged into the second camp, he went splat and took a backpack ride. He continued cursing me in TELLS, and for a week afterwards followed the Cleric toon around insulting him in general chat and tells. I haven't healed a party since.

That one guy is probably the cause of half the Cleric bitterness on Thelanis. And anybody who gives even a sniff of that kind of entitlement gets a quick kick and squelch if I'm leading a party.

Pop psychologists say that it takes about ten positive experiences to make up for one negative one, and the ratio is nowhere near that good unless you group with guildies. The problem is a stream of small things that builds up until one idiot can cause you to snap.

[Mubjon]

Sigh...

Slavery may be an overstatement, but an understandable one. In those three years of PuGing, were you a Cleric?

I played a FvS healer to 20 as my first character to cap, and started a Cleric after I'd capped my Wizard. I got the Cleric to level 7 before I got so disgusted I retired both toons and haven't logged them in except as bank mules since.

Pickup groups in the Harbor seemed to have a jerk in them who treated you like you were some Hireling AI about one time in three. And the straw that broke the camel's back was a Warforged Barbarian with no AC, no Healer's Friend, Intimidate, and the delusion that a large pool of hitpoints made him the ideal tank for Irestone Elite (at level).

Not only was the dope sucking in so much damage that I could not cycle my Cure spells (Light, Moderate, Serious and Critical) fast enough to keep up, but he was typing insults at me in battle. When he zerged into the second camp, he went splat and took a backpack ride. He continued cursing me in TELLS, and for a week afterwards followed the Cleric toon around insulting him in general chat and tells. I haven't healed a party since.

That one guy is probably the cause of half the Cleric bitterness on Thelanis. And anybody who gives even a sniff of that kind of entitlement gets a quick kick and squelch if I'm leading a party.

Pop psychologists say that it takes about ten positive experiences to make up for one negative one, and the ratio is nowhere near that good unless you group with guildies. The problem is a stream of small things that builds up until one idiot can cause you to snap.


I am not sure I could give it 10 positive experiences to make up that one negative one. I hardly pug on my cleric now, hardly group at all as i am in a small guild where there might be 2 of us online at any given time.

It is better for me to solo than to deal with people like that, even if it is just one time a week or once a month.

[susiedupfer]

I am not sure I could give it 10 positive experiences to make up that one negative one. I hardly pug on my cleric now, hardly group at all as i am in a small guild where there might be 2 of us online at any given time.

It is better for me to solo than to deal with people like that, even if it is just one time a week or once a month.

And this would be the crux of the problem we are having with groups not getting healers. We have all had those experiences, and there are just not enough positive experiences to even out the bad feelings left from PUG after PUG having "those" people in them.

If people want healers willing to join their groups, they are going to have to provide a really positive experience that we can remember. It works. I keep a good player/leader list as well as a "never again" list. It is an easy solution: make me want to join your groups again.

[xtchizobr]

*snip!*

Oh bravo!

I already upvoted you, but I have an almost palpable desire to also make you breakfast in bed and wash your windows.

I remember being dumbstruck by this "healing isn't something Clerics should have to do" mindset when I first started playing DDO. No other MMO has this problem, but other MMOs have large enough populations that would put any idiot who spake such nonsense in stocks and irons. The design intent is clear: Clerics (and other divines) have those healing spells on their spell list for a reason. There is a reason their spell list sucks so badly compared to Arcanes. All those enhancements, a metamagic feat, the itemization dedicated all toward improving the effectiveness of heal spells cast by a warm-bodied Cleric...

I wonder where is the uprising of Elf Wizards insisting that their bows are valid uses of their time? Gone are the Webs and the Disco balls at a stroke! "No!" They cry, "We will feather our foes with arrows! For such is our choice, and therefore it is not for you to scoff! We can shoot bows, buff ourselves and kite in circles while carrying your soul stones, so be damned grateful for the opportunity to invite one of us into your party!" The Arcane Archer Enhancements gaining cult-like following on the forums....

But seriously now.

One wonders why Clerics exist in the game at all if everyone else is capable of providing enough healing for themselves under any and all circumstances?

I hereby set a new virus in the forum's ear: No Clerics Allowed!

NCA groups made up of nothing but Dillies and UMD-capable builds...

I enjoy my Cleric, I really do. My FVS is clearly superior to every Cleric I've ever witnessed, but I enjoy my Cleric. I am absolutely convinced that the state of divines in DDO is a sad affair of bad design and few available options. Divines are not the supermen capable of plowing solo through Elites, Barbies and Sorcs looking on, agape in shock and shame. No build for any so-called "Warpriest" I've ever seen has been convincing, and certainly I have never witnessed this feat in-game!

Perhaps the tag should be "No Warpriests Allowed". Not because the character's build excludes them from capability (though most would), but because I don't want to play with the ******** who would play such a build, shouting such a mantra. In this way, Warpriest becomes a very good filter for keeping bad players, or at least a subset of them, out of my groups.

[Postumus]

Sigh...

Slavery may be an overstatement, but an understandable one. In those three years of PuGing, were you a Cleric?

I played a FvS healer to 20 as my first character to cap, and started a Cleric after I'd capped my Wizard. I got the Cleric to level 7 before I got so disgusted I retired both toons and haven't logged them in except as bank mules since.

Pickup groups in the Harbor seemed to have a jerk in them who treated you like you were some Hireling AI about one time in three. And the straw that broke the camel's back was a Warforged Barbarian with no AC, no Healer's Friend, Intimidate, and the delusion that a large pool of hitpoints made him the ideal tank for Irestone Elite (at level).


Capped a TR fvs, about to cap a TR cleric, have two other L16-17 cleric alts, capped one arti, barb, sorc, wiz, ranger, and fighter - almost all from PUGging.

So yeah, I have been a cleric in many of the PUGs I have run over the last three years. In addition, I am not deaf and I have witnessed how other clerics act and are treated in PUGs.


My experience has been either vastly difference than yours (and the OPs) or I must be more thick skinned (or oblivious) to the behavior of other players. Honestly I do not think it is the latter. Maybe the server pop is different? IDK.


But I do know that my experience has been overwhelmingly positive, regardless of class, when I pug and I try not to dwell on the occasional bummer PUG. Th emain reason I PUG less now is I do not like the increased time to fill for PUGs, and I am able to efficiently short man content with my guildies.

[Mubjon]

And this would be the crux of the problem we are having with groups not getting healers. We have all had those experiences, and there are just not enough positive experiences to even out the bad feelings left from PUG after PUG having "those" people in them.

If people want healers willing to join their groups, they are going to have to provide a really positive experience that we can remember. It works. I keep a good player/leader list as well as a "never again" list. It is an easy solution: make me want to join your groups again.

I only use the friend list as a means to remind me of those players I do not want to be in a group with.

I will join a group if they are not advertising need Healer, or need heals. As I am not going to be regulated to a single aspect of my character. And I have joined groups of BYOH where I healed the melees and arcanes during the heat of battle as I would have regardless, because they were using other means to top themselves off after each battle. Or standing in my aura as it was running for 10 to 20 seconds to finish off the last 25% of health needed to move on.

With the current changes to the way AC and now we have PRR a Divine can get a decent damage mitigation that previously they did not have. It is easy to keep a 50 to 60% miss chance with AC at all levels and at least a 10% to 15% damage reduction through PRR. Add in fortification items that can put you at 125% (well more than enough at level 11+ til epic levels) and Couple all of this with the aura makes the clerics even harder to kill.

[SirValentine]

I remember being dumbstruck by this "healing isn't something Clerics should have to do" mindset when I first started playing DDO.


I remember being dumbstruck the first time I ran into one of those "I'm a Healer!" Clerics.



I hereby set a new virus in the forum's ear: No Clerics Allowed!

NCA groups made up of nothing but Dillies and UMD-capable builds...


And since those dillies & UMDers could bring their own healing, you could maybe label it something like, "Bring Your Own Healing".

Of course, you can make groups like that anyways, even WITHOUT excluding Clerics from them.



Divines are not the supermen capable of plowing solo through Elites


They're not?

[xtchizobr]

I remember being dumbstruck the first time I ran into one of those "I'm a Healer!" Clerics.

Was that because you're new to gaming? Or just to RPGs in general?


And since those dillies & UMDers could bring their own healing, you could maybe label it something like, "Bring Your Own Healing".

Of course, you can make groups like that anyways, even WITHOUT excluding Clerics from them.

But if you didn't specifically exclude them, you might get stuck with enduring one of those entitled little ****** bags through the entire quest! No, I mean "No Clerics Allowed" because that actually has the meaning intended: I don't want any clerics in my groups. They bring nothing desirable. Or necessary -- isn't that what this thread is all about?


They're not?

Being someone who strives to form opinion based on empirical evidence, facts and personal experience -- I'll change my mind if I ever see one such in-game, as opposed to talked about on the forums with zealous, entitled, victim-complex-riddled That Guys.

So far, no. They categorically are not. So far, Clerics have always been the weakest link, and that says a lot considering that Bards are a playable class, too.

And so far, again, the Cleric class has demonstrated an interesting tendency to attract the most toxic, the most offensive, the most frustrating, the least useful, the most unpleasant players. Seems like the only logical thing to do would be to begin requiring that any Cleric making an invite application first prove that he isn't an *******.

Clerics are ******** until proven otherwise -- and this thread isn't helping with that surmise.

[SirValentine]

Was that because you're new to gaming? Or just to RPGs in general?


I was still new to DDO at the time, and it's the only MMO I've ever played.

I certainly wasn't new to D&D, P&P-style, or a variety of non-MMO computer games, some RPG, some not, some of those D&D, some not. Clerics were never hjealbot nannies in my experience. Is this something brought to DDO from other MMOs?



I don't want any clerics in my groups. They bring nothing desirable.
<snip>
So far, Clerics have always been the weakest link


Odd. Usually people complain about how the caster classes are overpowered, not that they are the weakest link. I don't know what experiences you're basing your perception on, but in my experiences, Clerics are very powerful and versatile.

[Kalari]

I like to think being here 5+ years (with breaks of course) has given me a bit of wisdom on the game that keeps things fresh and keeps my options open no matter what role I am in.

I have played every class in this game, I have capped nearly every class (once my druid and barbarian hit 20+)

I can honestly say this and believe it to be true even on my barbarian. As much fun as it is for me to brutally cut down foes, being a mindless killing machine will not help my party out all the time. Backing the truck up when needed being smart about when to wade into a situation having situational back up items (Ie potions for maladies) helps more then you know. Even carry resists 20 and 30s when I can build them up from chest drops. I barely have to touch them most times because for some odd reasons people believe barbs need babysitters.

I wont lie I have had to fill that roll to, one of my most trying moments on Kamari my cleric's nerves was being the sole healer in a group of 5 barbs doing an elite enter the kobold at the end. But you know what? We got threw it, not because I knew my role, but because I am willing to adapt to any challenge thrown my way. I also due to playing other roles learned to understand others point of view. Do I expect others due to my taking the time to figure things out to do the same? No so I just adapt, if its not fun for me I wont group with those players again.

Loving my divines I realize that I could be adamant about not being a "heal bot" or I can educate people by playing my other roles as someone who understands what a divine goes threw. Educating tends to help better then ranting.

[voodoogroves]

I've played a ton of D&D and participated in the PNP community in various degrees for years. "Healer as my main job" is definitely not a core D&D concept (though many starting players assume this is the case as clerics have access to spell-based healing).

Clerics in PNP have always been one of the absolutely strongest classes, period. In games where people optimize their characters in PNP like we do for DDO, Clerics are absolutely on the top of the heap (most full-casters are ... Druid, Cleric, Wizard primarily). These are the classes that can self buff and alter the landscape, time and participants of conflict more readily than the other classes.

Some PNP games may relegate clerics to healer status ... but the healer "role" is something that is more born out of the MMO-shift (MMOs specifically and game design in the PNP world to support it). "Just a healer" is never what clerics were meant to be (and people who played clerics for serious power were often there to destroy the enemy first, then raise the rest of the party afterwards).

From a strictly technical standpoint, optimization on games tends to favor offense as the opportunity cost to cast "heal" and "slay living" is essentially the same. Same spell level, etc. One may take someone at 20% and bring them to 100%, while the other can completely remove a piece from the board.

[xtchizobr]

I've played a ton of D&D and participated in the PNP community in various degrees for years. "Healer as my main job" is definitely not a core D&D concept (though many starting players assume this is the case as clerics have access to spell-based healing).

Clerics in PNP have always been one of the absolutely strongest classes, period. In games where people optimize their characters in PNP like we do for DDO, Clerics are absolutely on the top of the heap (most full-casters are ... Druid, Cleric, Wizard primarily). These are the classes that can self buff and alter the landscape, time and participants of conflict more readily than the other classes.

Some PNP games may relegate clerics to healer status ... but the healer "role" is something that is more born out of the MMO-shift (MMOs specifically and game design in the PNP world to support it). "Just a healer" is never what clerics were meant to be (and people who played clerics for serious power were often there to destroy the enemy first, then raise the rest of the party afterwards).

From a strictly technical standpoint, optimization on games tends to favor offense as the opportunity cost to cast "heal" and "slay living" is essentially the same. Same spell level, etc. One may take someone at 20% and bring them to 100%, while the other can completely remove a piece from the board.

In DDO, it's the blue bar.

Blue Bar.

Clerics aren't the strongest. That's the end of the discussion. That's simply the end of it. Clerics definitely run out of spell points, no matter whether they're trying to cast their way through or sword'n'board it, for any given character power level (cash, xp, whatever), Clerics cannot be the most powerful single class. Period.

DDO is not Pen and Paper. The sooner its players understand this, the better. Of course, since it's still being brought up all these years later, it's obvious that they won't or can't.


I was still new to DDO at the time, and it's the only MMO I've ever played.

Yeah, I thought so.


I certainly wasn't new to D&D, P&P-style, or a variety of non-MMO computer games, some RPG, some not, some of those D&D, some not. Clerics were never hjealbot nannies in my experience. Is this something brought to DDO from other MMOs?

The answer to that question is complex and nuanced.

//BEGIN TL;DR HERE

The fact that the class in DDO is named "Cleric" is, as far as PnP D&D is concerned, pure and complete coincidence. It should be obvious, but apparently it is not: DDO is not PnP D&D. Read that again.

Now read it again.

The long history lesson short is that, while MMOs are still a new genre, there are a lot of conventions of video game design upon which DDO is founded that may seem arbitrary, obtuse or opaque, especially, apparently, to those of you who came expecting it to be some impossible tabletop experience or those of you who have, apparently, never actually played a video game before.

Clerics in DDO are the healbot nannies for a very simple reason: healing has to get done. It's like the dirty dishes. Adults realize that dishes have to be washed. Someone has to wash them. Clerics have all those healing spells and were (and are being) designed specifically to use them on anyone who needed healing. In terms of economics, SP are completely renewable, they're essentially an allowance of "free" health which the Cleric is entrusted with the task of parceling out to the party as required/desired. This is, from the design point of view, the entire overarching core mechanic and gameplay of playing the class. This all goes for the newcomers, the Favored Souls, as well. The healing which Clerics can (and should do) is their specialized role in the party's dynamic. This is whence cometh the video game meaning of the term "Role-Playing Game", contrast this with the tabletop meaning which was "role" as a character, a personality, not as a collection of mechanical features and functionality.

Why?

Because no one else gets a renewed budget of "free" health. A Cleric, and especially a Favored Soul, gets plenty of SP to perform plenty of healing to significantly cut the economic costs to everyone in the party -- this is the entire reason that the rest of the party should tolerate the presence of the Cleric on the team. If you look through DDO's divine spell list, it should become obvious that absolutely every spell on it is specifically designed to recover or prevent damage. The particulars of how valuable or effective each spell can be in this highly specific task depends on the situation in which the Cleric finds himself. Command prevents damage because Ogres don't attack things while sitting on their ass. Blade Barrier prevents damage because a kiting Cleric is keeping everyone else from getting hit (killing creatures is a form of damage prevention -- and it is this form of damage prevention which Wizards are specialized in, and they are, in fact, better at it than Clerics). Glyph of Warding is there for the same reason Blade Barrier is, don't be a dunce. Mass Aid, Recitation... everything that DDO's Clerics can cast is either to recover or prevent damage. Period.

DDO is very odd in the fact that, with dedication or specifically designed character builds, other characters "can" recover health using expendable items out of combat. Again, this is not "free", it is real cash. Whether potion, scroll or wand, everyone else has to convert cash directly to hit points, they don't get a buffer of hit points before the damage they are taking starts coming out of their wallet. DDO is, at its heart, a simple flowchart. Damage is coming toward the party, and it is the party's task to manage this incoming debt in such a way that none of the six bank accounts goes into bankruptcy. Prevent it, divert it, mitigate it, recover it -- absolutely everything in DDO revolves around this process. This makes up the basic game interaction of combat in almost every MMO currently in existence. Combat being a huge portion of most MMO gameplay for reasons beyond the scope of this thread.

Furthermore, Clerics (and FVSs) are capable of outputting healing very much more quickly than wands can be whipped or scrolls can be read, allowing their buffer of renewed, free health to be allocated during combat to counteract the unpredictability of damage to achieve a higher resolution of damage-flow-management over time. This is the important ability which is the true reason to allow a Cleric to take up a party slot. UMD can't perform this task, it takes a human player in control of a Cleric to do this job.

//END TL;DR


Odd. Usually people complain about how the caster classes are overpowered, not that they are the weakest link. I don't know what experiences you're basing your perception on, but in my experiences, Clerics are very powerful and versatile.

There is no Time Stop, Create Demiplane, or Miracle in DDO. Nor are there any important divinations. You can't Teleport willy nilly through the dungeon as you please, you can't permanently enslave the monstrous inhabitants after becoming a lich yourself, and you can't remould the landscape to make your path easier. DDO doesn't have a DM to respond to and create "open ended" game content like that, which is what many of the features of PnP gaming requires. To be sure, DDO has done an admirable job of constructing an emulator for the (tabletop gaming) things which an MMO created last decade could do! This is because, on the whole, combat in DDO is rather simple and straightforward. No really complicated terrain construction/destruction, no armies clashing, none of that business.

But the reason "full casters" have been considered so powerful in the PnP games is simply because, if your character can literally reshape reality with some finger wiggling and mumbo jumbo, that character is definitely more powerful than the well-muscled rural lad with a sword. Magic in D&D is supposed to be powerful. That's the entire point of having magic in a fantasy setting.

And here's the gotchya: spellcasters in D&D have also always been considered weak in combat. Whether using Spell Points or Vanilla Vancian, Wizards and Clerics run out of spells to cast. The strapping young lad and his sword are rather more difficult to wear down. And it takes lots of time, lots of cash, lots of experience and lots of who knows what else to accomplish magic. Deny a Wizard his spellbook or, hell, just gag the Cleric, and they're just everyone else. PnP can accommodate these limitations on character power in a way that an MMO like DDO just cannot.

When people complain about spellcasters in MMOs it can be for a variety of reasons, but it most certainly does not necessarily mean that they are, categorically, "overpowered", to use an overused "technical" term...

One does wonder what the userbase expects a Wizard to gain in exchange for a lack of heavy armor, infinite uses of an extremely powerful weapon and the highest health pool in the game... I mean, really, do you think the Wizard/Cleric players should be happy cowering in the back casting useless spells while the barbie surges ever onward, indomitable, unstoppable, all powerful? Glass cannon. Wizards and Clerics have their weaknesses which they have accepted in exchange for being able to do something in a way that other classes can't. That something is no more or less than the set of damage-management tools you call "spells" in DDO.

Clerics have a role to fill on the team just as the warriors do.

This entire thread is nothing but the childish whining of little brats who don't want to wash dishes.

To be sure, it's also not fair that the adults be the only ones washing dishes without recompense -- which is why I absolutely will not use scrolls or wands without being compensated for them. It isn't fair to expect the Cleric to blow through a fortune in scrolls, and it isn't fair for the Cleric to engage in false advertising, either. If you want to play a Paladin, go roll a paladin and stop misusing the healer class icon.

Clerics make subpar warriors in DDO.

****ING GET OVER IT.

[voodoogroves]

In DDO, it's the blue bar.

Blue Bar.
Good thing those are pretty easy to keep non-empty.


Clerics aren't the strongest. That's the end of the discussion. That's simply the end of it. Clerics definitely run out of spell points, no matter whether they're trying to cast their way through or sword'n'board it, for any given character power level (cash, xp, whatever), Clerics cannot be the most powerful single class. Period.
No, they aren't. But they aren't the weakest by far.



And here's the gotchya: spellcasters in D&D have also always been considered weak in combat. Whether using Spell Points or Vanilla Vancian, Wizards and Clerics run out of spells to cast. The strapping young lad and his sword are rather more difficult to wear down. And it takes lots of time, lots of cash, lots of experience and lots of who knows what else to accomplish magic. Deny a Wizard his spellbook or, hell, just gag the Cleric, and they're just everyone else. PnP can accommodate these limitations on character power in a way that an MMO like DDO just cannot.
Hmm. Not really ... the real statement is that melee combat is generally poor and week in PNP, and clerics do it passably well if they want to. Those other mechanics (taking a spellbook, gagging someone) are fun mechanics that are completely subjective.

Also, see your above diatribe about comparing PNP to DDO, and maybe don't keep doing it so folks don't keep responding to you.


Clerics make subpar warriors in DDO.
It's a mighty fine thing then that being a "warrior" is pretty much non-essential.


****ING GET OVER IT.
QFT

[SirValentine]

Clerics aren't the strongest. That's the end of the discussion. That's simply the end of it.
<snip>
Clerics cannot be the most powerful single class. Period.


Strawman. Did someone say that they are the absolute single strongest, #1 of 13? Clerics are one of the most powerful classes, and if you want to claim FvS or Sorc is more powerful, I won't quibble over it.



DDO is not PnP D&D.


Hehe. Really?



The fact that the class in DDO is named "Cleric" is, as far as PnP D&D is concerned, pure and complete coincidence.


LOL. Utter nonense. Of course they are different games, but one is very obviously based on the other, and their classes likewise.



Clerics in DDO are the healbot nannies for a very simple reason: healing has to get done.


Logic fail. If you want to make a healbot nanny, sure, make it with a Cleric if you'd like. But that in no way requires all Clerics to be healbot nannies.



This is, from the design point of view, the entire overarching core mechanic and gameplay of playing the class. This all goes for the newcomers, the Favored Souls, as well.


It's ONE of many mechanics and ONE of many possible gameplay approaches to the class(es). Claiming it is THE CORE is your opinion and one that many divine players don't share.



This is whence cometh the video game meaning of the term "Role-Playing Game", contrast this with the tabletop meaning which was "role" as a character, a personality


Invented history alert! Where do you come up with this stuff?

Sure, computer "RPGs" often have little or no real roleplaying. But they called themselves that because they were based off real roleplaying games, not because they independantly invented the term to describe a totally different phenomen that many don't even have.



If you look through DDO's divine spell list, it should become obvious that absolutely every spell on it is specifically designed to recover or prevent damage. The particulars of how valuable or effective each spell can be in this highly specific task depends on the situation


If you want to interpret things that broadly, your statement becomes true but meaningless. You could say the same about almost every spell of every class, and most non-spell class abilities, too.



This entire thread is nothing but the childish whining of little brats who don't want to wash dishes.


There does seem to be a fair bit of childish whining about, but I think we differ about who's doing it. The folks who do plenty of the cooking, all their own dishes, and often some of the rest of the dishes besides, but who refuse to become a dishwasher for a living? Or those who refuse to wash ANY dishes and complain that somebody else won't become their dedicated dishbot?



it isn't fair for the Cleric to engage in false advertising, either.


Who's doing that? If someone is going around saying "I'm a Hjealer!" then later says, "Just kidding, no I'm not!", that would be false advertising. But simply having Cleric levels is not false advertising just because some ignorant folks might make unwarranted assumptions about what another's character is built, geared, and played to do.



If you want to play a Paladin, go roll a paladin


Sure! That's pretty obvious. And pretty irrelevant.



stop misusing the healer class icon.


What's the healer class icon? Never seen that one.

[the613]

In DDO, it's the blue bar.

Blue Bar.

Clerics aren't the strongest. That's the end of the discussion. That's simply the end of it. Clerics definitely run out of spell points, no matter whether they're trying to cast their way through or sword'n'board it, for any given character power level (cash, xp, whatever), Clerics cannot be the most powerful single class. Period.

DDO is not Pen and Paper. The sooner its players understand this, the better. Of course, since it's still being brought up all these years later, it's obvious that they won't or can't.



Yeah, I thought so.



The answer to that question is complex and nuanced.

//BEGIN TL;DR HERE

The fact that the class in DDO is named "Cleric" is, as far as PnP D&D is concerned, pure and complete coincidence. It should be obvious, but apparently it is not: DDO is not PnP D&D. Read that again.

Now read it again.

The long history lesson short is that, while MMOs are still a new genre, there are a lot of conventions of video game design upon which DDO is founded that may seem arbitrary, obtuse or opaque, especially, apparently, to those of you who came expecting it to be some impossible tabletop experience or those of you who have, apparently, never actually played a video game before.

Clerics in DDO are the healbot nannies for a very simple reason: healing has to get done. It's like the dirty dishes. Adults realize that dishes have to be washed. Someone has to wash them. Clerics have all those healing spells and were (and are being) designed specifically to use them on anyone who needed healing. In terms of economics, SP are completely renewable, they're essentially an allowance of "free" health which the Cleric is entrusted with the task of parceling out to the party as required/desired. This is, from the design point of view, the entire overarching core mechanic and gameplay of playing the class. This all goes for the newcomers, the Favored Souls, as well. The healing which Clerics can (and should do) is their specialized role in the party's dynamic. This is whence cometh the video game meaning of the term "Role-Playing Game", contrast this with the tabletop meaning which was "role" as a character, a personality, not as a collection of mechanical features and functionality.

Why?

Because no one else gets a renewed budget of "free" health. A Cleric, and especially a Favored Soul, gets plenty of SP to perform plenty of healing to significantly cut the economic costs to everyone in the party -- this is the entire reason that the rest of the party should tolerate the presence of the Cleric on the team. If you look through DDO's divine spell list, it should become obvious that absolutely every spell on it is specifically designed to recover or prevent damage. The particulars of how valuable or effective each spell can be in this highly specific task depends on the situation in which the Cleric finds himself. Command prevents damage because Ogres don't attack things while sitting on their ass. Blade Barrier prevents damage because a kiting Cleric is keeping everyone else from getting hit (killing creatures is a form of damage prevention -- and it is this form of damage prevention which Wizards are specialized in, and they are, in fact, better at it than Clerics). Glyph of Warding is there for the same reason Blade Barrier is, don't be a dunce. Mass Aid, Recitation... everything that DDO's Clerics can cast is either to recover or prevent damage. Period.

DDO is very odd in the fact that, with dedication or specifically designed character builds, other characters "can" recover health using expendable items out of combat. Again, this is not "free", it is real cash. Whether potion, scroll or wand, everyone else has to convert cash directly to hit points, they don't get a buffer of hit points before the damage they are taking starts coming out of their wallet. DDO is, at its heart, a simple flowchart. Damage is coming toward the party, and it is the party's task to manage this incoming debt in such a way that none of the six bank accounts goes into bankruptcy. Prevent it, divert it, mitigate it, recover it -- absolutely everything in DDO revolves around this process. This makes up the basic game interaction of combat in almost every MMO currently in existence. Combat being a huge portion of most MMO gameplay for reasons beyond the scope of this thread.

Furthermore, Clerics (and FVSs) are capable of outputting healing very much more quickly than wands can be whipped or scrolls can be read, allowing their buffer of renewed, free health to be allocated during combat to counteract the unpredictability of damage to achieve a higher resolution of damage-flow-management over time. This is the important ability which is the true reason to allow a Cleric to take up a party slot. UMD can't perform this task, it takes a human player in control of a Cleric to do this job.

//END TL;DR



There is no Time Stop, Create Demiplane, or Miracle in DDO. Nor are there any important divinations. You can't Teleport willy nilly through the dungeon as you please, you can't permanently enslave the monstrous inhabitants after becoming a lich yourself, and you can't remould the landscape to make your path easier. DDO doesn't have a DM to respond to and create "open ended" game content like that, which is what many of the features of PnP gaming requires. To be sure, DDO has done an admirable job of constructing an emulator for the (tabletop gaming) things which an MMO created last decade could do! This is because, on the whole, combat in DDO is rather simple and straightforward. No really complicated terrain construction/destruction, no armies clashing, none of that business.

But the reason "full casters" have been considered so powerful in the PnP games is simply because, if your character can literally reshape reality with some finger wiggling and mumbo jumbo, that character is definitely more powerful than the well-muscled rural lad with a sword. Magic in D&D is supposed to be powerful. That's the entire point of having magic in a fantasy setting.

And here's the gotchya: spellcasters in D&D have also always been considered weak in combat. Whether using Spell Points or Vanilla Vancian, Wizards and Clerics run out of spells to cast. The strapping young lad and his sword are rather more difficult to wear down. And it takes lots of time, lots of cash, lots of experience and lots of who knows what else to accomplish magic. Deny a Wizard his spellbook or, hell, just gag the Cleric, and they're just everyone else. PnP can accommodate these limitations on character power in a way that an MMO like DDO just cannot.

When people complain about spellcasters in MMOs it can be for a variety of reasons, but it most certainly does not necessarily mean that they are, categorically, "overpowered", to use an overused "technical" term...

One does wonder what the userbase expects a Wizard to gain in exchange for a lack of heavy armor, infinite uses of an extremely powerful weapon and the highest health pool in the game... I mean, really, do you think the Wizard/Cleric players should be happy cowering in the back casting useless spells while the barbie surges ever onward, indomitable, unstoppable, all powerful? Glass cannon. Wizards and Clerics have their weaknesses which they have accepted in exchange for being able to do something in a way that other classes can't. That something is no more or less than the set of damage-management tools you call "spells" in DDO.

Clerics have a role to fill on the team just as the warriors do.

This entire thread is nothing but the childish whining of little brats who don't want to wash dishes.

To be sure, it's also not fair that the adults be the only ones washing dishes without recompense -- which is why I absolutely will not use scrolls or wands without being compensated for them. It isn't fair to expect the Cleric to blow through a fortune in scrolls, and it isn't fair for the Cleric to engage in false advertising, either. If you want to play a Paladin, go roll a paladin and stop misusing the healer class icon.

Clerics make subpar warriors in DDO.

****ING GET OVER IT.

Do you know what Blade barrier, Destruction, and Implosion are? They are 3 divine spells, 1 is a damage spell, the other 2 are insta-kills. Also, your comment that the name Cleric for the DDO class is simply a coincidence is completely false. Look at the 3.5 pnp Cleric Spell list and at the DDO Cleric Spell list and I bet you will find a great many similarities.

Also, the blue bar in DDO has made casters even more powerful then before. This is due to allowing casters to cast way more high level spells, and the fact blue bars are vastly bigger then the amount of spell slots pnp gives a caster. I currently have a level 21 Cleric, and Enervation + Destruction usually means dead monster. This character doesn't have any spell focuse: Necro or necro dc boosting gear.

Take a good long look at the DDO cleric spell list and I guarantee you will see more then 9 offensive spells (spells that either deal damage or are insta-kills).

[Matuse]

If you look through DDO's divine spell list, it should become obvious that absolutely every spell on it is specifically designed to recover or prevent damage.

If you're going to expand your definition so broadly that spells like Divine Favor, Searing Light, Word Of Recall, and Water Breathing are "preventing" damage, then every spell on the Arcane list is the same thing.

So what's your point?

[stoerm]

Dear OP,

1) Is there a place for barbarians and pure fighters in your pugs/raids?
2) How do you expect melees to pug levels 12-20 unless they have a hire or divine to heal them?
3) If pure melees join your group, do you think it's more efficient from the party point view:
a) melees to stop hitting and chug pots/wand whip/UMD scroll themselves or
b) a divine to mass cure/heal the group

I also play divines and it's my job to decide the best use of my SP. I sometimes get "advice" from puggers, but I'm used to it now and don't take it personally. Perhaps my mom and wife haven't blackmailed me enough to get me to behave, but for some reason I don't have an urge to use my healing power as a weapon against my fellow puggers.


Do you know what Blade barrier, Destruction, and Implosion are? They are 3 divine spells, 1 is a damage spell, the other 2 are insta-kills.

Take a random pug elite running Vale quests or higher. As a lone blue bar, you probably don't have the SP to clear the entire dungeon. You'll be very useful BB'ing the odd wave of mobs, Destruct some casters and beholders etc. You'll want to cast Divine Punishment on the end boss, too. However, it will be more efficient for you to let the melees have aggro, and the majority of the DPS - and for you to heal them.

If a divine has the SP, skills, build and knowledge of the quest he might be able to solo it and carry the rest of the group. If his plan is to spend all his SP on killing stuff and doesn't tell the group members about his plan, he shouldn't come to the forums crying that melees asked for a heal, or telling about his heroic exploits how he carried the melee soul stones. That's just lame.

If I ever join a pug on my melee and find the divine wants to prove he can carry the gimpy melees, I'll happily oblige. Just pike and thank for the XP.

[the613]

Take a random pug elite running Vale quests or higher. As a lone blue bar, you probably don't have the SP to clear the entire dungeon. You'll be very useful BB'ing the odd wave of mobs, Destruct some casters and beholders etc. You'll want to cast Divine Punishment on the end boss, too. However, it will be more efficient for you to let the melees have aggro, and the majority of the DPS - and for you to heal them.

If a divine has the SP, skills, build and knowledge of the quest he might be able to solo it and carry the rest of the group. If his plan is to spend all his SP on killing stuff and doesn't tell the group members about his plan, he shouldn't come to the forums crying that melees asked for a heal, or telling about his heroic exploits how he carried the melee soul stones. That's just lame.

If I ever join a pug on my melee and find the divine wants to prove he can carry the gimpy melees, I'll happily oblige. Just pike and thank for the XP.

I was responding to someone who seemed to think that a divine can only heal. I know my SP bar isn't sufficient to solo anything near level, I was just pointing out that a divine has something other then heals.

[stoerm]

I was responding to someone who seemed to think that a divine can only heal. I know my SP bar isn't sufficient to solo anything near level, I was just pointing out that a divine has something other then heals.

A worthwhile point to make. I was really responding to a bunch of sentiments made by previous posters, like this one:


I would be thankful I am taking up my precious SP to heal someone who can do less than I can.

I personally am just as fed up with the martyr divines who play the victim to justify selfish behaviour, as I am with the needy and bossy melees.

[susiedupfer]

Clerics definitely run out of spell points, no matter whether they're trying to cast their way through or sword'n'board it, for any given character power level (cash, xp, whatever)
No argument here. Clerics definitely have limited SP. This is why they have to choose carefully which spells to utilize when.

Clerics in DDO are the healbot nannies for a very simple reason: healing has to get done. It's like the dirty dishes. Adults realize that dishes have to be washed. Someone has to wash them. Clerics have all those healing spells and were (and are being) designed specifically to use them on anyone who needed healing. In terms of economics, SP are completely renewable, they're essentially an allowance of "free" health which the Cleric is entrusted with the task of parceling out to the party as required/desired.


Why?

Because no one else gets a renewed budget of "free" health. A Cleric, and especially a Favored Soul, gets plenty of SP to perform plenty of healing to significantly cut the economic costs to everyone in the party -- this is the entire reason that the rest of the party should tolerate the presence of the Cleric on the team. If you look through DDO's divine spell list, it should become obvious that absolutely every spell on it is specifically designed to recover or prevent damage. The particulars of how valuable or effective each spell can be in this highly specific task depends on the situation in which the Cleric finds himself. Command prevents damage because Ogres don't attack things while sitting on their ass. Blade Barrier prevents damage because a kiting Cleric is keeping everyone else from getting hit (killing creatures is a form of damage prevention -- and it is this form of damage prevention which Wizards are specialized in, and they are, in fact, better at it than Clerics). Glyph of Warding is there for the same reason Blade Barrier is, don't be a dunce. Mass Aid, Recitation... everything that DDO's Clerics can cast is either to recover or prevent damage. Period.

This is where our opinion differs, and apparently your opinion in this paragraph differs from your previously stated one. SP are not completely renewable. Sure, shrines refill our blue bars, but when we have 5 other people in the party who believe we need to to take care of all their resists, blindness, curses, diseases, stat damages, poisons, as well as CC, BB, kite, heal, raise, insta-kill, etc, SP do not go far. Neither are they free.

DDO is very odd in the fact that, with dedication or specifically designed character builds, other characters "can" recover health using expendable items out of combat. Again, this is not "free", it is real cash.
Furthermore, Clerics (and FVSs) are capable of outputting healing very much more quickly than wands can be whipped or scrolls can be read, allowing their buffer of renewed, free health to be allocated during combat to counteract the unpredictability of damage to achieve a higher resolution of damage-flow-management over time. This is the important ability which is the true reason to allow a Cleric to take up a party slot. UMD can't perform this task, it takes a human player in control of a Cleric to do this job.

SP cost also. They cost "real cash" if we are referring to plat as you seem to be above. Have you seen the price of Major Mnemonics in the AH lately? Each one gives a random amount of SP from 105-600. I have NEVER in 2.5 yrs of playing seen one give over 550sp. Average is predictably around 350-400ish. This is about 5-6 spells. IF the party is staying together, this is a good amount. I can easily throw mass heals and usually reliably get to the shrine without using more than one. If the party is not together, or if there is a PM taking in more damage than he can fix, this is NOT enough. Cleric's use of SP, you see, has MORE to do with the playstyle of the "warriors" in the party than their own ability. If you get more than one "your job is to follow me and heal me so I can kill things" person in the party, mayhem ensues with verbal abuse being heaped on the cleric. Don't believe me? Go roll up a cleric and PUG to 20. THEN come back here and tell me how it went.

Clerics have a role to fill on the team just as the warriors do.

This entire thread is nothing but the childish whining of little brats who don't want to wash dishes.

To be sure, it's also not fair that the adults be the only ones washing dishes without recompense -- which is why I absolutely will not use scrolls or wands without being compensated for them. It isn't fair to expect the Cleric to blow through a fortune in scrolls, and it isn't fair for the Cleric to engage in false advertising, either. If you want to play a Paladin, go roll a paladin and stop misusing the healer class icon.

Clerics make subpar warriors in DDO.

****ING GET OVER IT.[/QUOTE]


There is NO "healer class" icon, simply because there is no HEALER class in DDO.

I bet you solo a LOT.

[taurean430]

Dear OP,

1) Is there a place for barbarians and pure fighters in your pugs/raids?
2) How do you expect melees to pug levels 12-20 unless they have a hire or divine to heal them?
3) If pure melees join your group, do you think it's more efficient from the party point view:
a) melees to stop hitting and chug pots/wand whip/UMD scroll themselves or
b) a divine to mass cure/heal the group

I also play divines and it's my job to decide the best use of my SP. I sometimes get "advice" from puggers, but I'm used to it now and don't take it personally. Perhaps my mom and wife haven't blackmailed me enough to get me to behave, but for some reason I don't have an urge to use my healing power as a weapon against my fellow puggers.



Take a random pug elite running Vale quests or higher. As a lone blue bar, you probably don't have the SP to clear the entire dungeon. You'll be very useful BB'ing the odd wave of mobs, Destruct some casters and beholders etc. You'll want to cast Divine Punishment on the end boss, too. However, it will be more efficient for you to let the melees have aggro, and the majority of the DPS - and for you to heal them.

If a divine has the SP, skills, build and knowledge of the quest he might be able to solo it and carry the rest of the group. If his plan is to spend all his SP on killing stuff and doesn't tell the group members about his plan, he shouldn't come to the forums crying that melees asked for a heal, or telling about his heroic exploits how he carried the melee soul stones. That's just lame.

If I ever join a pug on my melee and find the divine wants to prove he can carry the gimpy melees, I'll happily oblige. Just pike and thank for the XP.

I just read this... avoided this thread for awhile now. I find this interesting to claim though.

You imply that it's less expensive in a pug setting:

On my cleric I finish all but sleeping dust with 1/2 a bar or more by the time I reach the shrine. This is by use of invisibility, tactics, and knowing you don't need a gazillion blade barriers lining halls to do what one does in orange alert with one cast. On my fvs builds, add more to that totaling about 2/3 blue left.

Running with a party who leans on me and refuse to help themselves I am out of sp 1/3 of the way to the first or only shrine. Largely due to witnessing no use of tactics, complete ignorance of crowd control (running past commanded mobs/intiming large groups of teleporting trash/prematurely starting encounters/fighting outside of crowd control intentionally) unless I burn through a ton of heal scrolls and possibly sp pots at my own expense. Conversely, in groups with a couple of folks with some degree of self healing you get more mileage. Yet still constantly running the risk of being sp dry without supplementation via sp pots and heal scrolls.

Even taking let's say sins for example... on my cleric running with an aura up and utilizing blade barriers and symbols if needed I don't need the shrine at all. Get in there with a group without any interest in preserving themselves you can easily down 2-3 pots hoping to reach the shrine.

Even in terms of time, 11-20 min completions are much more desirable than 60+ min slogs being subject to the whims of others who truly believe your only purpose is to preserve them through stupid play. I'd also add that having melee ability, though not to the scale of other classes, is exceptionally useful. Add a dr breaker or two to that and who needs to dot really?

Which is better?

My answer is that when doing quests where the mobs have the propensity of 2-3 shotting players, I become much more picky regarding who's getting into the lfm.

[stoerm]

I just read this... avoided this thread for awhile now. I find this interesting to claim though.

You imply that it's less expensive in a pug setting

No I don't. Perhaps I should have been more specific with my "random elite pug". I tried to portray a situation where players of similar experience, including the divine, are playing at or near capacity, then judicious SP usage is required. You portray a situation where the divine can destroy the dungeon by himself, but is held down by "stupid", "ignorant" players. See the difference?

I can appreciate having competent melees in my group. When their DPS is better than mine, it's better for me to enable them through healing, than to waste my SP padding my kill count.

I've played as melee with guys like you, and it's great. I contribute where I can, but mostly make sure I don't slow down the blue bars while they wail and BB the dungeon. I can take fast and easy XP. Now we come to my second point: not all are experienced enough, able or willing to do that. The newb isn't there just for fast XP, he also wants to kill stuff and be useful. If he doesn't understand and consent to what you're about to do, frustration is going to happen on both sides - just like you describe.

[taurean430]

No I don't. Perhaps I should have been more specific with my "random elite pug". I tried to portray a situation where players of similar experience, including the divine, are playing at or near capacity, then judicious SP usage is required. You portray a situation where the divine can destroy the dungeon by himself, but is held down by "stupid", "ignorant" players. See the difference?

I can appreciate having competent melees in my group. When their DPS is better than mine, it's better for me to enable them through healing, than to waste my SP padding my kill count.

I've played as melee with guys like you, and it's great. I contribute where I can, but mostly make sure I don't slow down the blue bars while they wail and BB the dungeon. I can take fast and easy XP. Now we come to my second point: not all are experienced enough, able or willing to do that. The newb isn't there just for fast XP, he also wants to kill stuff and be useful. If he doesn't understand and consent to what you're about to do, frustration is going to happen on both sides - just like you describe.

The crux of your counterargument lies in what you define as competent.

In my experiences to date competency can be as simple as being able to follow instructions when undergeared on a first lifer; as well as being to par (dr breakers/healing amp/ac/status ailment pots/etc) or overgeared and able to eliminate mobs before taking heavy damage.

Each heal you ask for takes away options for that caster to do something else. Each status ailment cure you ask for which can be handled easily with cheap potions takes away options for that caster to do something else. Combined and tallied with ignored crowd control - you end up with a rather expensive run. If, by way of build design one has built a dps type that cannot mitigate incoming damage, but insists on being the first one to any mob, they are personifying an oxymoron.

I've come to believe that real competency involves building, gearing, and playing in such a way that enhances the effectiveness of the party. Examples of failure can be found on both sides of this debate. Sadly, what I see the majority of the time are melee who are unprepared to run that content leaning heavily on anyone with any kind of healing ability.

"... If those healers just drank more spell point pots and stopped trying to be battleclerics this would go fine.."

Just as I see divine and arcane casters unwilling to provide buffs or healing.

"... I'm not a nannybot..."

The balance that affords efficient team play at whatever pace is thrown to the wayside in favor of selfishness.

I personally will run a variety of lfm types dependent on my mood. Assuming that I only run fast xp tr zergs would not be accurate. Having recently run a melee build to cap I've seen it both ways. However, I see it as more of a player problem. This is because on that melee I carry self healing, status cures, and clicky buffs. But more importantly, intimidating or drawing mobs into crowd control set up by casters is sp saving, more effective, and faster. Topping yourself off in between encounters takes pressure off of divines. Providing some self buffs for yourself takes pressure off of arcanes and divines alike.

What I've seen more of lately than anything is a fight going on in parties to top the kill count. This is not okay, because it merely increases and firmly sticks the cost of any completion into the hands of casters. Casters who are forced to chain spells or recast multiple times for the same effect.

Furthermore, when playing a melee one should have some sort of Plan B. Because almost every caster with any experience does. When playing my melee in a party where divines will not heal me I take care of it myself with what resources I have available. When playing in a party where I do not receive buffs I provide them for myself with what resources I have available. And as amusing as it can be being an experienced divine player - keeping a fvs alive with my wands and scrolls while they attempt to blade barrier trash and take heavy damage is indicative of a different problem. Just as simply stunning and killing the trash one at a time when they die, then resing them gives me a sad face. Inspired Quarter questing has never been so full of both fail and lol simultaneously.

To me, this isn't a melee vs divine argument. It's an selfish player vs a flabbergasted observer argument. A competent player will adjust to the pace and skill level of the party. A competent player also knows when it's time to cut the lifeline on another player costing them too much. Somewhere, we hit a point as a player base where the overwhelming majority of players behave as if they believe everyone else present in a grouping is there to serve them. This is not the case, regardless of what classes are in question.

[susiedupfer]

The crux of your counterargument lies in what you define as competent.

In my experiences to date competency can be as simple as being able to follow instructions when undergeared on a first lifer; as well as being to par (dr breakers/healing amp/ac/status ailment pots/etc) or overgeared and able to eliminate mobs before taking heavy damage.

Each heal you ask for takes away options for that caster to do something else. Each status ailment cure you ask for which can be handled easily with cheap potions takes away options for that caster to do something else. Combined and tallied with ignored crowd control - you end up with a rather expensive run. If, by way of build design one has built a dps type that cannot mitigate incoming damage, but insists on being the first one to any mob, they are personifying an oxymoron.

I've come to believe that real competency involves building, gearing, and playing in such a way that enhances the effectiveness of the party. Examples of failure can be found on both sides of this debate. Sadly, what I see the majority of the time are melee who are unprepared to run that content leaning heavily on anyone with any kind of healing ability.

"... If those healers just drank more spell point pots and stopped trying to be battleclerics this would go fine.."

Just as I see divine and arcane casters unwilling to provide buffs or healing.

"... I'm not a nannybot..."

The balance that affords efficient team play at whatever pace is thrown to the wayside in favor of selfishness.

I personally will run a variety of lfm types dependent on my mood. Assuming that I only run fast xp tr zergs would not be accurate. Having recently run a melee build to cap I've seen it both ways. However, I see it as more of a player problem. This is because on that melee I carry self healing, status cures, and clicky buffs. But more importantly, intimidating or drawing mobs into crowd control set up by casters is sp saving, more effective, and faster. Topping yourself off in between encounters takes pressure off of divines. Providing some self buffs for yourself takes pressure off of arcanes and divines alike.

What I've seen more of lately than anything is a fight going on in parties to top the kill count. This is not okay, because it merely increases and firmly sticks the cost of any completion into the hands of casters. Casters who are forced to chain spells or recast multiple times for the same effect.

Furthermore, when playing a melee one should have some sort of Plan B. Because almost every caster with any experience does. When playing my melee in a party where divines will not heal me I take care of it myself with what resources I have available. When playing in a party where I do not receive buffs I provide them for myself with what resources I have available. And as amusing as it can be being an experienced divine player - keeping a fvs alive with my wands and scrolls while they attempt to blade barrier trash and take heavy damage is indicative of a different problem. Just as simply stunning and killing the trash one at a time when they die, then resing them gives me a sad face. Inspired Quarter questing has never been so full of both fail and lol simultaneously.

To me, this isn't a melee vs divine argument. It's an selfish player vs a flabbergasted observer argument. A competent player will adjust to the pace and skill level of the party. A competent player also knows when it's time to cut the lifeline on another player costing them too much. Somewhere, we hit a point as a player base where the overwhelming majority of players behave as if they believe everyone else present in a grouping is there to serve them. This is not the case, regardless of what classes are in question.

You are so very correct!

[Kalari]

I will say one thing about this thread title that I thought some of those pictures from my guilds raid nights got out...

Never mind nothing to see here and certainly no S&M involved :D:p:o

[Karavek]

Dear OP,

1) Is there a place for barbarians and pure fighters in your pugs/raids?
I dont ever pug anymore, nor do I raid as I see raids as about worthwhile as PvP. I used to long ago, until the lack of enjoyment playing a divine with strangers and in raids brought. DDO was poorly designed in reguard to raid mechanics. Especially when little raid loot is that appealing to devoted healers.

2) How do you expect melees to pug levels 12-20 unless they have a hire or divine to heal them?

I have nothing against them Holoing with a nannybot, or doing 3 men with 3 nannies if that is what they need to have their fun. I also dont expect someone to be confined to just melee, nor expect nor think anyone should ever pure class as a class that lacks basic survival tools that are needed in DDO like competent use in magical items.


3) If pure melees join your group, do you think it's more efficient from the party point view:

Pure anything is a weakness unless part of a regular static group or exclusively guild run character who can depend on a perfect storm of other specialist. If pugging, then being self reliant is really not an optional way to play.

a) melees to stop hitting and chug pots/wand whip/UMD scroll themselves or( Yes heaven forbid they actually pay attention to themselves and stop playing the only watch others play)
b) a divine to mass cure/heal the group ( Who says that Divine isnt running his aura which should be more then enough for all if it is for me, Certainly I shouldnt have to stop playing so others can, they can eat dirt or fall back in 90% of the cases and then I will carry their stone to a shrine)

I also play divines and it's my job to decide the best use of my SP. I sometimes get "advice" from puggers, but I'm used to it now and don't take it personally. Perhaps my mom and wife haven't blackmailed me enough to get me to behave, but for some reason I don't have an urge to use my healing power as a weapon against my fellow puggers.



Take a random pug elite running Vale quests or higher. As a lone blue bar, you probably don't have the SP to clear the entire dungeon. You'll be very useful BB'ing the odd wave of mobs, Destruct some casters and beholders etc. You'll want to cast Divine Punishment on the end boss, too. However, it will be more efficient for you to let the melees have aggro, and the majority of the DPS - and for you to heal them.

If a divine has the SP, skills, build and knowledge of the quest he might be able to solo it and carry the rest of the group. If his plan is to spend all his SP on killing stuff and doesn't tell the group members about his plan, he shouldn't come to the forums crying that melees asked for a heal, or telling about his heroic exploits how he carried the melee soul stones. That's just lame.

If I ever join a pug on my melee and find the divine wants to prove he can carry the gimpy melees, I'll happily oblige. Just pike and thank for the XP.

Your final statement is the reason most clerics/FVS go anon and solo rather then dela with worthless baggage. I have no interest in dead weight.

The rest are above in red