Ranged nerf in 15.1

[Ape_Man]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376774

Fury of the Wild's Adrenaline benefit no longer works with ranged combat.

This was powerful.

This was awesome.

This was NOT OP are all compared to some of the other stuff in this game.

Please do not go forward with this change.

[Missing_Minds]

From a gamer standpoint, I can agree with you.

From an archer standpoint.... explain it to me. Why should it work? There isn't any magic to help back it up this time.

Unless you are claiming all bows are 6000 lb draw strength and we've been using them like crossbows in the game this whole time.

[katz]

oh ****.



please no. :(

[Ape_Man]

From a gamer standpoint, I can agree with you.

From an archer standpoint.... explain it to me. Why should it work? There isn't any magic to help back it up this time.

Unless you are claiming all bows are 6000 lb draw strength and we've been using them like crossbows in the game this whole time.

The Chewbaca Defense cannot be used in DDO. Nothing here has to actually make any sense.

You need to look at stuff holistically . . . compared to the other stuff in the game was a FoTW toon with manyshot OP? That's the only thing that matters.

[madmaxhunter]

I'm happy for the nerf, rangers have been OP for too long now!

/sarcasm off


From a gamer standpoint, I can agree with you.

From an archer standpoint.... explain it to me. Why should it work? There isn't any magic to help back it up this time.

Unless you are claiming all bows are 6000 lb draw strength and we've been using them like crossbows in the game this whole time.

Are you using rationality in DDO? Lol! If we were to list the unrealistic things in DDO, we'd overload the forum server.

[Captain_Wizbang]

why does this not surprise me? :cool:

[danotmano1998]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376774

Fury of the Wild's Adrenaline benefit no longer works with ranged combat.


Yeah, I know a guy that is going to be pretty upset by this nerf.
He had mentioned that the Adrenaline used to synergize well with manyshot, applying the increased damage to all of his attacks... I don't think for a second he dreamed that when Turbine made the fix to this that they would just completely eliminate it. :(

[Ape_Man]

Yeah, I know a guy that is going to be pretty upset by this nerf.
He had mentioned that the Adrenaline used to synergize well with manyshot, applying the increased damage to all of his attacks... I don't think for a second he dreamed that when Turbine made the fix to this that they would just completely eliminate it. :(


Turbine's nerf formula:

- Does it help casters and monks? leave it be.

- Does it help others besides casters and monks? Nerf it to extinction.

[Archangel666]

Turbine's nerf formula:

- Does it help casters and monks? (Hello Canith crafting and Handwraps, oh...wait...that doesn't actually help Monks, does it? Ok, what about Stuns then? Mobs moving, casting, attacking while stunned definitely helps Monks. I mean it's not like they use Stuns more than any other class in the game or anything...Oh...wait a second! They do! Alright then. How about Everything is Nothing? That's a pretty cool epic moment that takes ages to charge up while actually questing and can potentially save a party. Nope, people whined that Monks had a new toy and now it has a 5 minute cooldown.) leave it be.

- Does it help others besides casters (Except Wail of course)? Nerf it to extinction.

ftfy

[Chai]

From a gamer standpoint, I can agree with you.

From an archer standpoint.... explain it to me. Why should it work? There isn't any magic to help back it up this time.

Unless you are claiming all bows are 6000 lb draw strength and we've been using them like crossbows in the game this whole time.

Well, the issue here is they allowed stuff like this to slide for a long time (like 3 years) before nerfing it. People still make bow-barians that receive x3 crit multipliers from FB due to berserking. How does one berserk with a bow, heh. Ima ticked off archer, my arrows hit harder than those shot from a happy archer. :p

Seems like Turbine has had two major fears as far as game balance is concerned.

1. Unhittable AC toons
2. Competitive ranged toons.

Each time one or both of these receives a nerf, it doesnt even surprise me anymore.

[Missing_Minds]

The Chewbaca Defense cannot be used in DDO. Nothing here has to actually make any sense.


Are you using rationality in DDO? Lol! If we were to list the unrealistic things in DDO, we'd overload the forum server.

You are missing the point. If you could provide some logical reason, you stand a better chance of keeping it. Possibly at a reduced ability, but still keep it.

Your current responses show to me you have no interest in rational talk and prefer to whine. The nerf will end up standing.


You need to look at stuff holistically . . . compared to the other stuff in the game was a FoTW toon with manyshot OP? That's the only thing that matters.
To a point I do agree. What other aspects do you have to help your case? Ranged damage of mobs? Attacks? Comparing other melee aspects? Fear justification?

Edit: Chia posted while I was typing this up, and provides a good example on why it should still be in. He is correct, how does raging help you to damage with ranged stuff better when shot from a bow? If it were a throwing weapon I could understand "logically" why it should a lot easier.

[Glenalth]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376774

Fury of the Wild's Adrenaline benefit no longer works with ranged combat.

This was powerful.

This was awesome.

This was NOT OP are all compared to some of the other stuff in this game.

Please do not go forward with this change.

I'm guessing it's probably just due to them not being able to make adrenaline only affect one arrow at a time.

The 11k Manyshot volleys were entertaining at least. Might be worthwhile to jump into one of the challenges before the update and snag quad damage just to see 4x11k damage arrows hit something.

[xoowak]

compared to the other stuff in the game was a FoTW toon with manyshot OP? That's the only thing that matters.


He had mentioned that the Adrenaline used to synergize well with manyshot, applying the increased damage to all of his attacks...

That sounds like a yes to me. Turbine took the lazy way out, but that seems to be the standard these days.

[madmaxhunter]

*snip* Your current responses show to me you have no interest in rational talk and prefer to whine. The nerf will end up standing.
*snip*

Twas a retort, not a whine.

But fine, a bowman's strength does not increase arrow damage. But it "could" increase the number of arrows sent downrange. So to put it in realistic context, the arrows are cumulatively causing more damage based upon increased strength.

Like the nerf won't end up standing, no matter how intellectually we debate it.

[Expalphalog]

Fury of the Wild's Adrenaline benefit no longer works with ranged combat.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/213/377/rarity_do_not_want-(n1294609501482).png

[Missing_Minds]

But fine, a bowman's strength does not increase arrow damage. But it "could" increase the number of arrows sent downrange. So to put it in realistic context, the arrows are cumulatively causing more damage based upon increased strength.

Assuming you are not talking multipule arrows per shot but instead a rate of fire increase based on strength. I can agree with that, however, that is not what Fury offers so your context still can not apply directly.

You could make a case for use of adrenalin to have a one round of many shot to simulate an increased rate of fire burst in place of doing the current melee effect. But I don't know how easy to code that would be to keep the effects separate. But that is a developer worry.

[Ape_Man]

The bottom line is were FoTW many-shotters OP? If they weren't this nerf is uncalled for and I'd love to see the case be made that FoTW manyshotters are OP, I'm sure it'll be an entertaining read.

I half-joke about Turbine nerfing anything that doesn't fit their cookie-cutter but this is exactly it. People weren't running Shirardi's like they want us to so anything else needs to be nerfed into compliance.

[Captain_Wizbang]

One thing some of you are failing to mention, what about players using darts, returning daggers, shirks, etc.. this can directly affect them.

And based on that, adrenaline would most certainly be a benefit. Or am I reading the change wrong?

[Tid12]

I don't play a ranged toon but..meh at this nerf.

[Schmoe]

http://cdn.motinetwork.net/demotivationalposters.net/image/demotivational-poster/0910/archery-or-bust-archery-bust-choice-boobs-boobies-epic-fun-b-demotivational-poster-1255910127.jpg

[FengXian]

I didn't even get the chance to try it out. But I didn't see all those presumed OP FotW AAs running aroung either...don't do this please, we're not a threat to melees/casters, I promise :D

[Grailhawk]

YAY the most op class in the game is bough back in line o wait ...

Just what the game needs another nerf to Rangers, can you share what ever it is your smocking up in Boston cause it must be good stuff if you think Rangers need a nerf.

[emptysands]

Why?

Why restrict choice? Melee dps has options, but this forces ranged builds into only one destiny.

Why is it consider OP? Sorcs can do just as much ranged AoE dps.

Thematically, Bow Strength and Adrenaline certainly should work together.

[Dylvish]

You are missing the point. If you could provide some logical reason, you stand a better chance of keeping it. Possibly at a reduced ability, but still keep it.

Your current responses show to me you have no interest in rational talk and prefer to whine. The nerf will end up standing.


To a point I do agree. What other aspects do you have to help your case? Ranged damage of mobs? Attacks? Comparing other melee aspects? Fear justification?

Edit: Chia posted while I was typing this up, and provides a good example on why it should still be in. He is correct, how does raging help you to damage with ranged stuff better when shot from a bow? If it were a throwing weapon I could understand "logically" why it should a lot easier.

The reason they are pointing out the invalidity of your argument, is because so many unrealistic things already exist in game. Best example off the top of my head? Strength bonus working on a repeating xbow.

Ranged damage (for rangers in particular) is not competitive at the moment compared to melee or arcane, except for when they can break out many shot for a few seconds. If this change (nerf) is to be put in play because they are planning on buffing how archery works in game, I can understand and agree. If it is not, then I believe it should stay as is until they can.

~Dylvish

[Chai]

The bottom line is were FoTW many-shotters OP? If they weren't this nerf is uncalled for and I'd love to see the case be made that FoTW manyshotters are OP, I'm sure it'll be an entertaining read.

I half-joke about Turbine nerfing anything that doesn't fit their cookie-cutter but this is exactly it. People weren't running Shirardi's like they want us to so anything else needs to be nerfed into compliance.

There are a few people who keep trying to perpetuate the myth that ranged is doing better than melee right now. In order to believe this, they must have gotten the abriged version of epic destinies that did not have FoTW or LD in it.

The nerf doesnt surprise me, as it coincides perfectly with the overall fear of ranged becomming powerful enough to compete with melee in numerical contribution. Since both are still miles behind casters, I find this fear to be very odd in todays DDO.

[Havok.cry]

Anyone trying to make the "realistic or logical" arguments haven't payed much attention to reality. The reality is that no modern day military uses melee as a primary form of combat. Because ranged weapons outdated melee combat centuries ago. If you want this game to be realistic then ranged combat would have to be superior to melee combat. Even in the middle ages one on one a ranged combatant was vastly more dangerous than a melee combatant. That has been true ever since armies upgraded from the sling.

Only massed formations of either flanking cavalry or heavily armored and shielded infantry would counter archer formations. Neither of which is encountered in this game.

[-Zephyr-]

Turbine's nerf formula:
- Does it help casters and monks? leave it be.


Just in case you missed it :


The Legendary Dreadnought's Momentum Swing now property states that it requires a weapon in order to be used.

I actually means : now properly states that monks using wraps are excluded.
Do I need to remind you that they did the same in U15 for Pulverizer ?

[kingfisher]

no way they were going to let this stand. no way. even with just 2 of these in a party any boss becomes trivial, even on ee. when a melee ranger is able to time his unbridled with manyshot and double damage boosts while spamming overloads for over 40k damage in 20 seconds, the writing is on the bathroom stall door. you knew they nerf bat was coming. i mean every first number is over 1200 damage if you trigger it all right, on a melee. it would be way over that with the right gear, aa pre, icr, etc. thats too much for turbine to allow, cause, ya know, ranged toons characters dont buy ddostore sp pots lol.

dont get me wrong, i enjoyed the hell of out using unbridled like this, but it was only a matter of time. as usual, those jacknobs went too far and made it suck completely im sure. changing it work like unbridled does for melee would have been enough.

no this was not a threat to the dominance of casters, its too tricky to get enough 20's and time everything out just right to be OP. even when you do its only for 20 seconds unlike casters endless (tm) spell point pools. its more like a trick shot you can pull out of your ass once every blue moon. i do believe that if allowed most ranged types would have eventually swapped to fury before raiding and used shiradi for questing tho.

when will people learn to never ever talk about what works well in mixed company? they will nerf it, every time. or the will alter it then charge for it. **** about stuff that works and it will be around longer.

[NexEverto]

-Sigh-

[emptysands]

Anyone trying to make the "realistic ...


http://i.imgur.com/iAFq2.jpg

[wax_on_wax_off]

Isnt there even a developer post somewhere implying that adrenaline was supposed to work with Manyshot as it was fixed from applying to more than 1 volley to its live experience?

I'm sad about this, I havent tried fury yet but I was looking forward to it.

[maddmatt70]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376774

Fury of the Wild's Adrenaline benefit no longer works with ranged combat.

This was powerful.

This was awesome.

This was NOT OP are all compared to some of the other stuff in this game.

Please do not go forward with this change.

Now that the cat is out of the bag and unfortunately 3 months sooner then I wished I have to say that for a brief time playing an archer was awesome. Yeah archers are powerful until 15.1, but after 6 years of having to work so hard to be a good archer this was a great moment that I did not enjoy as much as I should have I think. I think of my guildy stalksdeath who capped his archer in all destinies and played his archer all the time even after - his archer is his main. He enjoyed every minute..:) By the way the end moment for fury of the wild also worked for ranged combat despite its text saying otherwise haha.

Sorcerers are also very powerful at the moment but they will not get nerfed. It just is a fact that even pre update 14 the devs were stating over and over that they did not want archers to do as much damage as melee. The shiradi is a destiny made for wild mages and spellcasters and not bow rangers unless the bow archer is a soloist. It is my opinoin that the devs think bow archers should go away or solo quests otherwise they can be some sort of strange cc character. Unlike many other mmos archers are not dps characters and the devs think that is o.k.

What I see in game was with some recent glimmers of hope of dps a fairly large increase in the number of archers in game. The players want their archers to do dps and not be cc characters and they want to play their archers in groups. The devs refuse to acknowledge that fact.

[Schmoe]

Isnt there even a developer post somewhere implying that adrenaline was supposed to work with Manyshot as it was fixed from applying to more than 1 volley to its live experience?

I'm sad about this, I havent tried fury yet but I was looking forward to it.

I seem to recall that, too. It's very disappointing and discouraging that they put in this nerf. Not only does it hurt a group of characters that could use help, it also reduces flexibility in build options.

[NexEverto]

Isnt there even a developer post somewhere implying that adrenaline was supposed to work with Manyshot as it was fixed from applying to more than 1 volley to its live experience?

I'm sad about this, I havent tried fury yet but I was looking forward to it.

Right now anything I say will be bad, so, I'm just going to post some quotes you reminded me of.




I will still argue that adrenaline in combination with when combined with exalted smite or MS/IPS is crazy broken ;)

There was a bug at one point where Adrenaline could last for multiple hits of Manyshot. That should be fixed now, and if it isn't, expect that to change at some point!



I would really appreciate it if someone would tell me if adrenaline will work with ranged attacks and not just melee.

Yes.

[Ape_Man]

So he's blatantly lying to us?

Typical Turbine.

[NexEverto]

So he's blatantly lying to us?

Typical Turbine.

No. Vargouille posted this back in the Lamannia preview for the Expansion. 06-23-2012, we're currently 09-05-2012. What it means though is initially Adrenaline was intended to work with Ranged. Now however, they're removing that ability.

[Dawnsfire]

So he's blatantly lying to us?

Typical Turbine.

Or he got overruled/countermanded. Either way without a corresponding ranged dps boost archers got the heck nerfed out of them :(

[Ape_Man]

Or he got overruled/countermanded. Either way without a corresponding ranged dps boost archers got the heck nerfed out of them :(

Doesn't matter, rangers did not need a nerf period. That's the only thing that's important.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Doesn't matter, rangers did not need a nerf period. That's the only thing that's important.

That pretty much says it all right there.

[scottmike0]

http://i.imgur.com/iAFq2.jpg

i like that picture of Zabuza(Naruto anime tv show)

Im happy adrenaline is being nerfed for rangers...

Doing roughly 1.2 crits + bursts on a monster is way to much game-breaking(in my opinion)
Let alone account for all the other procs....

All i can say is that some of this epic destinies are so OP that you can even see it...

When epic destinies are op, quests become a lot easier to do, making the player sometimes get bored of what he/she does...
epic destinies should give boosts, but not to the point were only minor gear is needed; not to the point where True reincarnation does not even help slightly versus the average level 20 toon..

I was in a quest(an epic hard) and most of the group was not with-standing the damage output, one even raged on me when i said that some of us do not have the gear to pull it off.
So, what the person did was link gear that was generally easy to obtain via selling or buying.
AS you see know, DDO is becoming a less of a need to craft making it so, other may complain and whine until being pleased

[NexEverto]

Im happy adrenaline is being nerfed for rangers...

Doing roughly 1.2 crits + bursts on a monster is way to much game-breaking(in my opinion)
Let alone account for all the other procs....

All i can say is that some of this epic destinies are so OP that you can even see it...

When epic destinies are op, quests become a lot easier to do, making the player sometimes get bored of what he/she does...
epic destinies should give boosts, but not to the point were only minor gear is needed; not to the point where True reincarnation does not even help slightly versus the average level 20 toon..

I was in a quest(an epic hard) and most of the group was not with-standing the damage output, one even raged on me when i said that some of us do not have the gear to pull it off.
So, what the person did was link gear that was generally easy to obtain via selling or buying.
AS you see know, DDO is becoming a less of a need to craft making it so, other may complain and whine until being pleased

So would you be happy if Everything is Nothing is nerf'd next? We all know Monks are overpowered and all that. :rolleyes:

[katz]

retracted.

i may have been wrong.




but i still disagree with this change and hope it is not going to stay as is :(

[Ape_Man]

So would you be happy if Everything is Nothing is nerf'd next? We all know Monks are overpowered and all that. :rolleyes:

And that's what get's me . . . EiN is okay but Adrenaline many-shot is OP?

[Ape_Man]

i found out last night exactly WHY this nerf is going in. (in case anyone is tempted to PM me to ask... don't bother)

again, i beseech you, Turbine Devs... beg even... PLEASE don't take the easy way out and take this away. find some other way to fix the problem. adjust the DRs or something. anything. just not... this.... please....

:(

Don't ask Turbine to be creative in addressing an issue unless you want to be responsible for FvS getting another wings nerf :)

And I won't even concede this was an issue. Adrenaline+manyshot does a lot of damage . . . for 20 seconds every 2 minutes.

So what?

[Missing_Minds]

The reason they are pointing out the invalidity of your argument, is because so many unrealistic things already exist in game. Best example off the top of my head? Strength bonus working on a repeating xbow.

Last I checked, no it doesn't. Did a change late in the game change that such to where str bonus effects crossbows now?

[NexEverto]

Last I checked, no it doesn't. Did a change late in the game change that such to where str bonus effects crossbows now?

I think he meant 'Intelligence bonus working on a repeating crossbow.' Though I personally don't get how reading a book on quantum mechanics would allow me to shoot a crossbow anymore accurately, or do more damage with it. If anything, it would just give a headache, which would frustrate me. Hrm... Though, I suppose I'd likely through the book at the person who gave it to me harder whilst frustrated. So, a book would be more DPS than a repeating crossbow? Maybe I do see the logic after all! :D

[dredre9987]

Part of the problem seems to be that DR is only counted on the first arrow and not the rest....Hopefully Turbine would FIX THE ISSUE itself instead of just ripping the arm off so to speak...

[kaobang]

I'm angry and frustrated ... Turbine is killing the force of the game which is to build diverse characters.

If we want to use a bow and be competitive we need AA (and all the feats/racial/class restriction), monk for the 10Ks and now we only have one ED ...

[Missing_Minds]

I think he meant 'Intelligence bonus working on a repeating crossbow.' Though I personally don't get how reading a book on quantum mechanics would allow me to shoot a crossbow anymore accurately, or do more damage with it. If anything, it would just give a headache, which would frustrate me. Hrm... Though, I suppose I'd likely through the book at the person who gave it to me harder whilst frustrated. So, a book would be more DPS than a repeating crossbow? Maybe I do see the logic after all! :D

The intelligence factor is playable due to the assumption that they are learned such that the character knows the weaker points in the armor to shoot to optimize damage in the HP = life simulation we are playing.

[slimkj]

How anyone could have not expected this to be corrected, I don't know. It was almost as silly as the wraps bug.

[Missing_Minds]

How anyone could have not expected this to be corrected, I don't know. It was almost as silly as the wraps bug.

Because of lack of communication.

Eladrin has spoken up on what Juggernat was intended for. Apparently it is NOT intended for all melee.

Open communication about what is and is not intended would have saved a lot of issues, but Turbine is failing again. I'm not going to say it is a developer's job, one would expect a voice of Turbine to speak up. Who's job directly this is/should be I do not know, nor am I going to make any assumptions on who's I think it is.

Instead what we have been forced to deal with is a lack of communication concerning intention, and instead getting "Oh that is working as intended, we just never care about descriptions". Which while sad, is historically accurate in the part that they do not care about spelling and descriptions until way after the fact.

[madmaxhunter]

Because of lack of communication.

Eladrin has spoken up on what Juggernat was intended for. Apparently it is NOT intended for all melee.

Open communication about what is and is not intended would have saved a lot of issues, but Turbine is failing again. I'm not going to say it is a developer's job, one would expect a voice of Turbine to speak up. Who's job directly this is/should be I do not know, nor am I going to make any assumptions on who's I think it is.

Instead what we have been forced to deal with is a lack of communication concerning intention, and instead getting "Oh that is working as intended, we just never care about descriptions". Which while sad, is historically accurate in the part that they do not care about spelling and descriptions until way after the fact.

Yeah, I miss that six-month-span that Maj was keeping us up-to-date on what's being worked on.

Edit: and the "Let's talk:" series. That didn't last very long.

[slimkj]

I am well aware there is a lack of comms most of the time on most issues, however some things are so clearly over the top to any rational observer, that you know right from the start it's a case of "Enjoy it while it lasts!". This was one of those times. I don't see that it could've been thought of any other way to be honest!

Enjoy Shiradi instead, it's the nuts.

[sephiroth1084]

From a gamer standpoint, I can agree with you.

From an archer standpoint.... explain it to me. Why should it work? There isn't any magic to help back it up this time.

Unless you are claiming all bows are 6000 lb draw strength and we've been using them like crossbows in the game this whole time.
How is this any different from our bows applying any amount of Str bonus we currently have, so long as we have Bow Strength? If the same bow can be used with a 12 Str and a 60 Str, and essentially work identically, what matter if Adrenaline adds more damage to it?

Or the ability for Frenzied Berserk/Greater Mountain Stance to add to the crit multiplier of the bow?

None of those are magical, either, but they work.

[Missing_Minds]

How is this any different from our bows applying any amount of Str bonus we currently have, so long as we have Bow Strength? If the same bow can be used with a 12 Str and a 60 Str, and essentially work identically, what matter if Adrenaline adds more damage to it?

Or the ability for Frenzied Berserk/Greater Mountain Stance to add to the crit multiplier of the bow?

None of those are magical, either, but they work.

I've often argued against having the bow strength feat in game.

That said, I agree with your analogy of bow strength on why Adrenaline should be kept.

I still do not agree with FB or Mtn stance adding to crit multiplier, but that is my opinion in a game I do not run.

[sephiroth1084]

One of two things eventually happens in games like D&D: Either non-magical characters gain abilities that no longer quite make sense according to the standard laws of the natural, physical world, or they don't, and fall farther and farther behind characters that can do anything because MAGIC!!! It's a problem that has plagued D&D for a long time. Mages gain the ability to incapacitate or kill hordes of enemies, fly, teleport, become nigh-invulnerable, while a fighter can...swing a sword, jump 5 feet off the ground, or punch someone.

At some point you MUST allow mundane characters to do outlandish things, or they're just over-buffed level 5 characters running around with level 20 wizards, and clerics.

That was the premise behind the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords that WotC released at the end of the 3.5 life cycle, and basically the entire backbone of 4th Edition. One of the major problems with DDO is that it hasn't really embraced that philosophy, so we still have a tremendous gulf between what casters and non-casters can do.

I'll admit that the supernatural stuff doesn't always sit well with me, as in my mind I see knights doing standard knightly stuff for the most part, though I can also see monks doing plenty of anime stuff. There are ways to resolve these disparate viewpoints, but little has been done to do so. Calling for a removal of things like unlimited Bow Strength, +1 crit multiplier, or Adrenaline use on bows does nothing positive for the game unless you're also removing Wail of the Banshee, Fireball, Mass Hold Person, and most of the rest of a wizard's repertoire.

[goodspeed]

Maybe im not seeing something here.

Adrenaline: (Passive and Active)

Passive Portion: You gain +1 damage per level of Fury of the Wild and +1 Druid and Ranger caster level per level of Fury. Gain 2 Adrenaline uses.
Active Portion: (Cooldown 5 second): Your next attack deals +300% damage, increases your critical threat range by 2 and you are considered raged until your next attack.

I mean is it because the skill considers you to be raged when used cause hell we could fix that quick. Why shouldn't or can't this be used with a bow? I mean hell theirs the word ranger right there. You see it to right? I see the word attack, not melee attack, but attack. Soooo... whats up? Is it manyshot? Ok that's an easy fix, much like archers stance, it's nulled when manyshot is activated. Fixed. (though id include fausade as well cause that still works with archers stance going.)

SO again... why is this not working with ranged? Share the magical knowledge i'm missing here.

[kingfisher]

Maybe im not seeing something here.

Adrenaline: (Passive and Active)

Passive Portion: You gain +1 damage per level of Fury of the Wild and +1 Druid and Ranger caster level per level of Fury. Gain 2 Adrenaline uses.
Active Portion: (Cooldown 5 second): Your next attack deals +300% damage, increases your critical threat range by 2 and you are considered raged until your next attack.

I mean is it because the skill considers you to be raged when used cause hell we could fix that quick. Why shouldn't or can't this be used with a bow? I mean hell theirs the word ranger right there. You see it to right? I see the word attack, not melee attack, but attack. Soooo... whats up? Is it manyshot? Ok that's an easy fix, much like archers stance, it's nulled when manyshot is activated. Fixed. (though id include fausade as well cause that still works with archers stance going.)

SO again... why is this not working with ranged? Share the magical knowledge i'm missing here.

the problem is with turbine. they coded unbridled (and adrenaline and overload) to work with ranged, except that it applies an overload to every arrow instead of every 3rd one or so like it does a melee attack. so instead of taking time (and spending a little money) to recode it correctly they just disable it entirely and say 'oh yeah we NEVER meant for it to work with ranged, that was just a description bug, a coding error, etc" this is how these no talent assclowns handle everything. they do this because there are ZERO dollars in it for them to go back and correct their shoddy work. its more fiscally efficient to just kill the whole thing and move on to whatever other project they are currently half-assing their way through in order to meet a rushed deadline handed down by tight wad beancounters working at the behest of that clueless succa they all call boss.

[jandhaer]

Edit: Chia posted while I was typing this up, and provides a good example on why it should still be in. He is correct, how does raging help you to damage with ranged stuff better when shot from a bow? If it were a throwing weapon I could understand "logically" why it should a lot easier.

I counter this by saying if what you two said is true, that raging (making you stronger) shouldn't help you to damage with a bow, then it's FAR past time to scrap the feat Bow Strength (if being strong shouldn't affect an archers damage).

Its time we got these OP ranged toons back inline. HOW DARE THEY strut around and think its OK to not have to switch to melee weapons before logging off so they will be accepted into PUG raids. /sarcasm off

[Missing_Minds]

I counter this by saying if what you two said is true, that raging (making you stronger) shouldn't help you to damage with a bow, then it's FAR past time to scrap the feat Bow Strength (if being strong shouldn't affect an archers damage).

*points to his previous post* You were saying? I don't see any counter what so ever as I have stated exactly that.

If you bother to go back and review what I've said in the past you will find I do advocate getting rid of bow str feats (mobs have their version), put in stone of change recpies to add "might" to bows, such that per PnP up to 5 points of strength damage can be added (or maybe make it tiered so it could go maybe up to 10? if you put in the grind to make such.), and increase the rate of fire with bows.

[sephiroth1084]

*points to his previous post* You were saying? I don't see any counter what so ever as I have stated exactly that.

If you bother to go back and review what I've said in the past you will find I do advocate getting rid of bow str feats (mobs have their version), put in stone of change recpies to add "might" to bows, such that per PnP up to 5 points of strength damage can be added (or maybe make it tiered so it could go maybe up to 10? if you put in the grind to make such.), and increase the rate of fire with bows.
See my previous post.

[scottmike0]

So would you be happy if Everything is Nothing is nerf'd next? We all know Monks are overpowered and all that. :rolleyes:


im completely fine with anything being nerfed, as shown in my post.

and monks are not exactly over powered, they require more than one stat unlike most melee builds(that come across leveling).

only exception i can see is builds that are 2-3 classes as in triple class or multi

[Dylvish]

I think he meant 'Intelligence bonus working on a repeating crossbow.' Though I personally don't get how reading a book on quantum mechanics would allow me to shoot a crossbow anymore accurately, or do more damage with it. If anything, it would just give a headache, which would frustrate me. Hrm... Though, I suppose I'd likely through the book at the person who gave it to me harder whilst frustrated. So, a book would be more DPS than a repeating crossbow? Maybe I do see the logic after all! :D

You are correct. I was typing in a hurry (at work on break at the time).

People can try for all kinds of arguments to make anything sound feasible or not (intelligence = research and knowing where to place each shot to exploit a weakness, Dex = agility to place shot perfectly, etc). What it really comes down to however is, its a fantasy game, and 'reality' arguments become rather irrelevant in it.

[maddong]

I'm guessing the reason they are not letting it work with ranged is Improved Precise Shot?

Because they are still going to let exalted smite work with adrenaline right (on a single target a x6 heavy pick smite should be equivalent to 4 arrows)?

[Inouk]

*points to his previous post* You were saying? I don't see any counter what so ever as I have stated exactly that.

If you bother to go back and review what I've said in the past you will find I do advocate getting rid of bow str feats (mobs have their version), put in stone of change recpies to add "might" to bows, such that per PnP up to 5 points of strength damage can be added (or maybe make it tiered so it could go maybe up to 10? if you put in the grind to make such.), and increase the rate of fire with bows.

Just a few stray thoughts related to various posts here:

1) as several people have pointed out, this game strays so far from reality, even within the context of accepting certain givens for a fantasy world, there is no point using "unrealistic" as an argument for game balance. Is it so hard to conceive that maybe MAGICAL bows adjust draw strength to match the wielder?
1a) if you want to talk about realism, an archer fires about 1/5 as often as a decent swordsman can attack; I know, I used to sword fight for sport and there were guys that could land 3 "killing blows" before you could say "good!"

2) someone pointed out that Turbine doesn't want ranged damage doing as much as melee. I know from PnP days experience that this is because the fighter feels castrated when the (my) archer does just as much damage, but at range, and never has to worry about closing with a target, or the inability to close with a target. If ranged does as much DPS as melee why bother to ever roll a melee?

3) the reason archers aren't as wanted in groups actually has less to do with DPS IMO and more to do with function. Groups need healers and arcanes for their purpose, but they also typically need a group of guys to stand, tank, surround a bad guy. The guy you are looking to replace in a group, functionally, is the caster, and there is no reason a ranger should outclass or match a caster in what they do or why play a caster when I could have more hp, evasion, the melee option, and do just as much DPS without SP? It still seems like there's a ranger and/or monk in every PUG I join, so I don't see this as a huge problem

4) rangers and monks have greater versatility, which they pay for by being not as good as any other class in their specialty. The trick for Turbine is to balance this in such as way as to make them worth playing without making anyone else not worth playing. Don't BS yourself into thinking that's easy. IMO they've done a pretty good job as I still see plenty of rangers, monks, and every other class in the game (except maybe paladin, though I see a few of those).

[maddmatt70]

Just a few stray thoughts related to various posts here:

1) as several people have pointed out, this game strays so far from reality, even within the context of accepting certain givens for a fantasy world, there is no point using "unrealistic" as an argument for game balance. Is it so hard to conceive that maybe MAGICAL bows adjust draw strength to match the wielder?
1a) if you want to talk about realism, an archer fires about 1/5 as often as a decent swordsman can attack; I know, I used to sword fight for sport and there were guys that could land 3 "killing blows" before you could say "good!"

2) someone pointed out that Turbine doesn't want ranged damage doing as much as melee. I know from PnP days experience that this is because the fighter feels castrated when the (my) archer does just as much damage, but at range, and never has to worry about closing with a target, or the inability to close with a target. If ranged does as much DPS as melee why bother to ever roll a melee?

3) the reason archers aren't as wanted in groups actually has less to do with DPS IMO and more to do with function. Groups need healers and arcanes for their purpose, but they also typically need a group of guys to stand, tank, surround a bad guy. The guy you are looking to replace in a group, functionally, is the caster, and there is no reason a ranger should outclass or match a caster in what they do or why play a caster when I could have more hp, evasion, the melee option, and do just as much DPS without SP? It still seems like there's a ranger and/or monk in every PUG I join, so I don't see this as a huge problem

4) rangers and monks have greater versatility, which they pay for by being not as good as any other class in their specialty. The trick for Turbine is to balance this in such as way as to make them worth playing without making anyone else not worth playing. Don't BS yourself into thinking that's easy. IMO they've done a pretty good job as I still see plenty of rangers, monks, and every other class in the game (except maybe paladin, though I see a few of those).

Shrug playing a class or type of character that is substandard is not fun. If this is your argument for bow rangers then you must think that sorcerers should get nerfed right?

[Bodic]

Turbine's nerf formula:

- Does it help casters and monks? leave it be.

- Does it help others besides casters and monks? Nerf it to extinction.

A day late to this party, but seriously rethink your statement.

ToD, FW, BB, and so many other things. Every class has been hit by the nerf bat many times. We tend to only focus on what we play the most. For me it is rogue nerfs.

[Inouk]

Shrug playing a class or type of character that is substandard is not fun. If this is your argument for bow rangers then you must think that sorcerers should get nerfed right?

I didn't say anything about anyone needing nerfed, I actually sympathize with rangers on this one, but as I haven't played it I can't say whether it was OP. For the record, a sorc is a specialist and relies on SP, and no they don't need nerfed. No, my point is that if rangers got their way (per many of the complaints I see in this thread) they would do as much melee damage as barbarians, do as much ranged damaged a barbarian does in melee, and wouldn't give up any of the cool perks like self healing, evasion, etc that make them far more versatile, survivable, and soloable. And yes, that would be OP. What makes you think rangers are substandard? I'm personally planning a ranger next life (12rng/8ftr tempest) for my fighter to gain some of the cool perks I'm currently missing out on.

Bottom line is you want your ranged damage to match melee damage, and there is no justification for that for game balance, period. But I agree that it needs to be close enough to make the class worth playing. Feel better?

[maddmatt70]

I didn't say anything about anyone needing nerfed, I actually sympathize with rangers on this one, but as I haven't played it I can't say whether it was OP. For the record, a sorc is a specialist and relies on SP, and no they don't need nerfed. No, my point is that if rangers got their way (per many of the complaints I see in this thread) they would do as much melee damage as barbarians, do as much ranged damaged a barbarian does in melee, and wouldn't give up any of the cool perks like self healing, evasion, etc that make them far more versatile, survivable, and soloable. And yes, that would be OP. What makes you think rangers are substandard? I'm personally planning a ranger next life (12rng/8ftr tempest) for my fighter to gain some of the cool perks I'm currently missing out on.

Bottom line is you want your ranged damage to match melee damage, and there is no justification for that for game balance, period. But I agree that it needs to be close enough to make the class worth playing. Feel better?

Your comparison should be with sorcerers and not melee. A ranged character resembles a sorcerer and not a melee. So why should bow rangers do less damage then sorcerers? That is the current state of the game and quite frankly with a gadzillion shrines per quest and free spells that sorcerers get it really makes little sense.

[Missing_Minds]

See my previous post.
Your half pointless post? Surge isn't magical so that argument is null. Ha! I made a funny.

The other part, I do agree with. If they can't do something they will fall behind. Which sadly is status quo for physical ranged characters. (vs. magical ranged)


Your comparison should be with sorcerers and not melee. A ranged character resembles a sorcerer and not a melee. So why should bow rangers do less damage then sorcerers? That is the current state of the game and quite frankly with a gadzillion shrines per quest and free spells that sorcerers get it really makes little sense.

Add into it that mana pots are a joke if you have spending money, and are semi easy to get a hold of in game if you don't.

[glowbug]

Your comparison should be with sorcerers and not melee. A ranged character resembles a sorcerer and not a melee. So why should bow rangers do less damage then sorcerers? That is the current state of the game and quite frankly with a gadzillion shrines per quest and free spells that sorcerers get it really makes little sense.

The funny thing is that while they were working on the spell changes one of the devs brought up changing maximize to an action boost type increase for a set duration with a cooldown. The caster community was very much against it obviously...it never occured to me the parralel to manyshot there.

[Inouk]

Your comparison should be with sorcerers and not melee. A ranged character resembles a sorcerer and not a melee. So why should bow rangers do less damage then sorcerers? That is the current state of the game and quite frankly with a gadzillion shrines per quest and free spells that sorcerers get it really makes little sense.

Fine, I'll compare to sorcerers:
Sorcs are mana reliant, get fewer HP, can't wear armor, don't get evasion, can't switch to melee (or bow for that matter) when it's convenient. Sorcs are specialists, they do exactly 1 thing well, more damage than anybody else, particularly to bosses. In every other way they fail to stack up to wizards, for instance, but that's okay because they are specialized... unlike rangers. In short, same story, a ranger keeping pace with sorc damage would be ridiculous. It's comparing apples to broccoli.

[Dylvish]

I didn't say anything about anyone needing nerfed, I actually sympathize with rangers on this one, but as I haven't played it I can't say whether it was OP. For the record, a sorc is a specialist and relies on SP, and no they don't need nerfed. No, my point is that if rangers got their way (per many of the complaints I see in this thread) they would do as much melee damage as barbarians, do as much ranged damaged a barbarian does in melee, and wouldn't give up any of the cool perks like self healing, evasion, etc that make them far more versatile, survivable, and soloable. And yes, that would be OP. What makes you think rangers are substandard? I'm personally planning a ranger next life (12rng/8ftr tempest) for my fighter to gain some of the cool perks I'm currently missing out on.

Bottom line is you want your ranged damage to match melee damage, and there is no justification for that for game balance, period. But I agree that it needs to be close enough to make the class worth playing. Feel better?

I think you are misreading the intention of many pple's posts in here. As a whole they are not asking to be ranged ranger = Barbarian. However, they WOULD like to see ranged ranger = 3/4 of Sorcerer at least. Currently they are not. They have some self healing (more handy during solo than 90% of group content when a healer is around), they can melee dps (again, no where near Monks / fighters / rogues / barbs), and they have paper thin defenses with comparatively low health (better than arcanes, but worse than melees) and self buffs that ship buffs and guild potions made mostly obsolete.

The only time they are truly viable is when Manyshot is up. I personally wish they would make many shot work similar to the way repeater xbows work, only on a level scale (lvl 6 = 2 arrows, lvl 12 = 3 arrows, lvl 18 = 4 arrows, as a rough examle, with it being a passive always on AA only feat). Tweak as needed but something similar to the way I vaguely remember pnp being. *pipe dream I am sure, but hey, a guy can wish*


They need to maybe have rangers commit more either way, but give them more viability in that side (like sorcs, who get +with fire, but - with water). When they get AA they get stronger ranged, but do lose the passive gain of 1 TWF feat maybe, and visa versa. They do not need to be 1 = 1 with other classes, but they should be much closer than they are currently.

As it stands now, they are nowhere NEAR Sorcs, or even Wizzies in the ranged department, not even close to
the melees in that category, even as a Tempest. In a MMO game, where, like it or not, specific roles (dps, etc) matter, that hurts the Ranger class.

P.S.: Your planned ranger is only 1/2 ranger, and melee, so not very relevant to this particular thread (it will be a decent twf char though if you are also going kensai).

[Dylvish]

Fine, I'll compare to sorcerers:
Sorcs are mana reliant, get fewer HP, can't wear armor, don't get evasion, can't switch to melee (or bow for that matter) when it's convenient. Sorcs are specialists, they do exactly 1 thing well, more damage than anybody else, particularly to bosses. In every other way they fail to stack up to wizards, for instance, but that's okay because they are specialized... unlike rangers. In short, same story, a ranger keeping pace with sorc damage would be ridiculous. It's comparing apples to broccoli.


Sorcerer, water savant, Spells (other than their standard DPS) chosen by most according to threads:
1) Jump,
Merfolk
Tumble

2) Blur
Web (cc)
Gust of Wind (anti aoe field)

3) Rage
Haste
Displacement
some take Protection from Energy

4) Stoneskin (although argued over for non-earth spec)
usually 1 or 2 of (Crushing despair, Enervation, or Solid Fog)

5) *all dps*

6) Reconstruct for any and all Warforged Sorcs.

7) Otto's is popular

8)

9) Mass Hold Monster.




So you say they are 'Specialized, dps is all they do'.

I say they are High dps, decent AOE dps, strong party buffs, mob debuffing, self healing, and between stoneskin + displacement they are not terrible on holding their own momentarily while tank picks off aggro.

Ranged Rangers are ... well, they do get a couple of buffs, they can self heal, and they are medium dps. They do not even bring as much versatility as you may think (no CC is a big one).

Wizards... well I am not even going to get into that comparison.



I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. ;)

[Inouk]

I think you are misreading the intention of many pple's posts in here. As a whole they are not asking to be ranged ranger = Barbarian. However, they WOULD like to see ranged ranger = 3/4 of Sorcerer at least. Currently they are not. They have some self healing (more handy during solo than 90% of group content when a healer is around), they can melee dps (again, no where near Monks / fighters / rogues / barbs), and they have paper thin defenses with comparatively low health (better than arcanes, but worse than melees) and self buffs that ship buffs and guild potions made mostly obsolete.

The only time they are truly viable is when Manyshot is up. I personally wish they would make many shot work similar to the way repeater xbows work, only on a level scale (lvl 6 = 2 arrows, lvl 12 = 3 arrows, lvl 18 = 4 arrows, as a rough examle, with it being a passive always on AA only feat). Tweak as needed but something similar to the way I vaguely remember pnp being. *pipe dream I am sure, but hey, a guy can wish*


They need to maybe have rangers commit more either way, but give them more viability in that side (like sorcs, who get +with fire, but - with water). When they get AA they get stronger ranged, but do lose the passive gain of 1 TWF feat maybe, and visa versa. They do not need to be 1 = 1 with other classes, but they should be much closer than they are currently.

As it stands now, they are nowhere NEAR Sorcs, or even Wizzies in the ranged department, not even close to
the melees in that category, even as a Tempest. In a MMO game, where, like it or not, specific roles (dps, etc) matter, that hurts the Ranger class.

P.S.: Your planned ranger is only 1/2 ranger, and melee, so not very relevant to this particular thread (it will be a decent twf char though if you are also going kensai).


Yep, going tempest/kensei/Khopesh. I strongly disagree that a tempest doesn't compare, my build doesn't do dramatically more damage than a pure ranger TWF build. I had to carefully weigh the advantages of kensei III vs tempest II/kensie I and Tempest III, and the differences were pretty thin. Any of them will probably out-damage my current WF Kensei III THF build, although again the difference is fairly small. Mostly I wanted a melee that has evasion and self heals. Going for TMP II + Kensei I gave me a little more damage but cost me 4th level spells and 2 levels of favored enemy.

Our opinions here aren't that different to be honest, as I said in previous posts here, they need to be comparable enough to be playable. I think ranged DPS should be about 80% of melee DPS all things factored in, at most/all levels. More than that would make me not want to play a melee. I also think an elf Kensei III archer should out-damage a ranger, since they lose all that cool versatility, so ranger archer build should do maybe 70-75% of melee, but that's just my opinion. I'm honestly not sure what the #'s prove out to be currently (anyone that wants to make a claim: show me real #s).

It's traditional for balance reasons that good solo builds tend to be slightly less good in groups (I know there are sometimes exceptions, i.e. PM). I disagree that your damage output isn't comparable to wizards. Wizards do short bursts of damage when needed and pike intermittently when less needed. Same really for sorc, but sorc does about 50% more damage and has about 50% more SP than wizard. Being mana-less inherently changes this for rangers, they are more like melee DPS, slower and steadier, but probably no less DPS over a mission.

[Inouk]

Sorcerer, water savant, Spells (other than their standard DPS) chosen by most according to threads:
1) Jump,
Merfolk
Tumble

2) Blur
Web (cc)
Gust of Wind (anti aoe field)

3) Rage
Haste
Displacement
some take Protection from Energy

4) Stoneskin (although argued over for non-earth spec)
usually 1 or 2 of (Crushing despair, Enervation, or Solid Fog)

5) *all dps*

6) Reconstruct for any and all Warforged Sorcs.

7) Otto's is popular

8)

9) Mass Hold Monster.




So you say they are 'Specialized, dps is all they do'.

I say they are High dps, decent AOE dps, strong party buffs, mob debuffing, self healing, and between stoneskin + displacement they are not terrible on holding their own momentarily while tank picks off aggro.

Ranged Rangers are ... well, they do get a couple of buffs, they can self heal, and they are medium dps. They do not even bring as much versatility as you may think (no CC is a big one).

Wizards... well I am not even going to get into that comparison.



I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. ;)

The only buffs my casters use are hage, GH, blur, and occasionally mass prot. GH is is questionable value honestly, I toss it because people ask for it often enough. Blur is unnecessary in most cases because people have items for it or want to get hit. Yes, hage is a boon. I also have a few CC spells, but the DCs are so much lower than what I can do on my wizard I use them only in desperation and usually to little effect. Frankly my best CC is usually to kill everything. Earth Savant has more CC, but worse spell selection for damage *shrug*. Regardless... rangers aren't spell casters, and for that reason no, it's not a good comparison. If they upped ranged damage to exceed melee damage (which you'd have to to be 3/4 of a sorc damage) then nobody would roll melee builds anymore.

[Dylvish]

The only buffs my casters use are hage, GH, blur, and occasionally mass prot. GH is is questionable value honestly, I toss it because people ask for it often enough. Blur is unnecessary in most cases because people have items for it or want to get hit. Yes, hage is a boon. I also have a few CC spells, but the DCs are so much lower than what I can do on my wizard I use them only in desperation and usually to little effect. Frankly my best CC is usually to kill everything. Earth Savant has more CC, but worse spell selection for damage *shrug*. Regardless... rangers aren't spell casters, and for that reason no, it's not a good comparison. If they upped ranged damage to exceed melee damage (which you'd have to to be 3/4 of a sorc damage) then nobody would roll melee builds anymore.



All I see is a circular argument of you saying that Ranged (AA) Rangers should be the lowest dps in game. When you add that to the lack of useful buffs, where does that put them in the party slot selection? Sadly nowhere.

As much as we may like fluff and character, DDO is not a PnP game, where the little fun stuff actually is useful in the game. Its an MMO, and although I wish otherwise, there are fairly specific roles.

DPS
TANK (truthfully only recently viable but one many wanted)
HEALING / buff
CC / buff


The AA ranger is currently (and how you seem to want it) at bottom of DPS, can not TANK, has no CC, and only enough HEAL for an oh**** moment unless they try to get a lot of enhance / items bonus thrown in. Their party buffs are almost all no longer useful, just handy.

-Arti (yeah I give them their own little category) brings ranged DPS + GREAT party buffs to the table.
-Acanes bring Ranged DPS (and some instas), GREAT party buffs, CC, versatility, and in many cases debuffs to the table.
-Melees bring DPS, survivability (with some exceptions), and in many cases the ability to off-tank in a pinch to the table.
-Divines bring HEALING (not comparing them to rangers, just giving out why they are desired) and BUFFS in some cases mild CC to the table.

AA Rangers bring sub par ranged DPS (with the occasional beautiful burst), the ability to melee worse than other melee's (unneeded anyway, due to the fact that they can shoot the bow at melee range), with not as much survivability, mostly obsolete buffs, and the ability to throw a panic heal. Lack of reliance on mana = should do less DPS is not a valid argument in the current state of the game. My FVS and Wizzie almost never has to touch a potion, as shrines are usually close enough together that I rarely feel stressed.

When you think about it in this light, you may see why so many of us think AA needs love. There simply is not a reason for parties that are looking to do any dungeon where they may have to work at it a bit to bring an Arcane Archer.

I stand by my opinion. I read somewhere that the Devs intend on 'looking at' the state of ranged dps, so I guess we shall see which of us is thinking closer to the masses soon enough.

~Dylvish

[Inouk]

All I see is a circular argument of you saying that Ranged (AA) Rangers should be the lowest dps in game. When you add that to the lack of useful buffs, where does that put them in the party slot selection? Sadly nowhere.

As much as we may like fluff and character, DDO is not a PnP game, where the little fun stuff actually is useful in the game. Its an MMO, and although I wish otherwise, there are fairly specific roles.

DPS
TANK (truthfully only recently viable but one many wanted)
HEALING / buff
CC / buff


The AA ranger is currently (and how you seem to want it) at bottom of DPS, can not TANK, has no CC, and only enough HEAL for an oh**** moment unless they try to get a lot of enhance / items bonus thrown in. Their party buffs are almost all no longer useful, just handy.

-Arti (yeah I give them their own little category) brings ranged DPS + GREAT party buffs to the table.
-Acanes bring Ranged DPS (and some instas), GREAT party buffs, CC, versatility, and in many cases debuffs to the table.
-Melees bring DPS, survivability (with some exceptions), and in many cases the ability to off-tank in a pinch to the table.
-Divines bring HEALING (not comparing them to rangers, just giving out why they are desired) and BUFFS in some cases mild CC to the table.

AA Rangers bring sub par ranged DPS (with the occasional beautiful burst), the ability to melee worse than other melee's (unneeded anyway, due to the fact that they can shoot the bow at melee range), with not as much survivability, mostly obsolete buffs, and the ability to throw a panic heal. Lack of reliance on mana = should do less DPS is not a valid argument in the current state of the game. My FVS and Wizzie almost never has to touch a potion, as shrines are usually close enough together that I rarely feel stressed.

When you think about it in this light, you may see why so many of us think AA needs love. There simply is not a reason for parties that are looking to do any dungeon where they may have to work at it a bit to bring an Arcane Archer.

I stand by my opinion. I read somewhere that the Devs intend on 'looking at' the state of ranged dps, so I guess we shall see which of us is thinking closer to the masses soon enough.

~Dylvish

I get your frustration, but maybe adding DPS isn't the answer. All the cool versatility I referred to isn't, frankly, group versatility as much as solo versatility. Still, don't think for a second that every fighter and barb wouldn't like to do what they do at range and have evasion (you keep over looking this, it's a HUGELY important defensive factor) and self heals. It's a balance issue, you can't fix rangers by making melee useless. Rangers are generalists, maybe they should be a little better at all the other things they do, like buffing. If anything they fit in the artificer category above, so like an artificer give them unique non-dps abilities that make them wanted. Make entangle actually useful. Give them hate buff/debuffs, damage shields, regen spells from druid. Heck, the first "A" in "AA" stands for arcane.. give them some better arrow related spell effects. You could also give them things like immunity to knockdown at high levels to help replace things that were useful in PnP but not in DDO. Adding useful abilities in the 12-20 range would make people think about playing a pure ranger instead of moncher, etc. You might also look for a thread I posted suggesting changes to the Deepwood Sniper like a week ago, who needs a lot more love than AA does right now. Between the 2, sniper should be the DPS build and AA should be the versatility build.

I'm with you that ranger-archers need some love, even if it doesn't sound like it all the time, you just have to be careful you are asking for the right things. Asking to be as good or better DPS to less versatile melee characters is not the right thing.

[Dylvish]

I get your frustration, but maybe adding DPS isn't the answer. All the cool versatility I referred to isn't, frankly, group versatility as much as solo versatility. Still, don't think for a second that every fighter and barb wouldn't like to do what they do at range and have evasion (you keep over looking this, it's a HUGELY important defensive factor) and self heals. It's a balance issue, you can't fix rangers by making melee useless. Rangers are generalists, maybe they should be a little better at all the other things they do, like buffing. If anything they fit in the artificer category above, so like an artificer give them unique non-dps abilities that make them wanted. Make entangle actually useful. Give them hate buff/debuffs, damage shields, regen spells from druid. Heck, the first "A" in "AA" stands for arcane.. give them some better arrow related spell effects. You could also give them things like immunity to knockdown at high levels to help replace things that were useful in PnP but not in DDO. Adding useful abilities in the 12-20 range would make people think about playing a pure ranger instead of moncher, etc. You might also look for a thread I posted suggesting changes to the Deepwood Sniper like a week ago, who needs a lot more love than AA does right now. Between the 2, sniper should be the DPS build and AA should be the versatility build.

I'm with you that ranger-archers need some love, even if it doesn't sound like it all the time, you just have to be careful you are asking for the right things. Asking to be as good or better DPS to less versatile melee characters is not the right thing.

I did not bring up evasion (which you seem to focus on almost exclusively) because the other classes all seem to deal with it handily by either a) splashing 2 levels of monk or rogue, or b) by having enough mitigation, or HP's to soak the damage if they get hit with an aoe. Arcanes have spells that help them, and many of them splash for evasion as well. Also, being AA ranger usually you are back with the arcanes, so should not be needing the evasion as much anyway, unlike Tempest.

As for self healing, you are right, its handy in solo. But nowadays there are a ton of potions that help with that as well. UMD a ton of pple go with, and a few classes get easily but I don't factor that in. Also half elves as a race make a huge option for many pure melees for the divine dillies.

The problem with 'versatility' I see is, currently its hard to get said versatility to any point where the party will want you. Even Bards (my favorite party support class) are not as desired after the latest expansion because their buffs are not nearly as game changing or bonus giving.

Weather they are given increased buffs, I think Druids would get the same buffs (just guessing here but they do tend to share spell tables in pnp), and Ranger would be in the same situation it is currently. If you gave them another damage buff, it would either infringe on Artie's area, or be too powerful when stacked with Arties buffs. If you make it more healing oriented.... well, that would just be **** imho. If something else can be thought up that is both effective and desired in parties, I would be all for it, I just don't have much faith in it. The Dev's don't have the best track record there. Saying they solo well again does not work well for an argument, as so can several other classes, all of which also dps better, and most of which are just as versatile.

For starters, give them at least the steady ranged dps that arties + self buffs + rune arm damage bonus + repeaters get.


Make your next life an AA ranger, level em up, get a feel for what we mean about ranged dps as compared to any other class (every single ranged class in game has versatility), and I think you may change your opinion somewhat on them. I personally didn't get what the big deal was until I leveled one up myself, and have turned into a convert as well. Out of the classes that I have brought to 20, it has hands down felt the weakest (AA spec), taking me a good while to kill most things. My other classes either kill em quickly, then pop a potion to heal up, kill them quickly and self heal, insta kill and move on, or heal while killing all day (monk, so insane atm).


Party viability / desirability is my goal. If they come up with another means, I'm for it. I just don't see it atm. ;p

[Faent]

I don't know exactly what needs to be fixed here, but something needed to be fixed. Currently, a well-built ranger can drop Elite Xyzzy instantly with a Many Shot volley, punching through her 999 DR and cutting down her 20K-ish HP to nothing before Many Shot expires. Some kind of nerf is definitely in order. What kind? Not sure.

[Ape_Man]

I don't know exactly what needs to be fixed here, but something needed to be fixed. Currently, a well-built ranger can drop Elite Xyzzy instantly with a Many Shot volley, punching through her 999 DR and cutting down her 20K-ish HP to nothing before Many Shot expires. Some kind of nerf is definitely in order. What kind? Not sure.

First of who cares about hound at this point.

Second, A barb can do the same thing.

[mute_mayhem]

I don't know exactly what needs to be fixed here, but something needed to be fixed. Currently, a well-built ranger can drop Elite Xyzzy instantly with a Many Shot volley, punching through her 999 DR and cutting down her 20K-ish HP to nothing before Many Shot expires. Some kind of nerf is definitely in order. What kind? Not sure.

Oh yeah, let's nerf the new shiny stuff so an old raid no one ever runs anymore isn't trivialized by it...

Just up her DR to 99999 and call it a day.

The other thing with raid bosses (I'd assume this is where most of the problems concerning MS+Adrenaline are) is the presence of fortification. An adrenaline manyshot volley doesn't do an insane amount of damage when half the crits are resisted. Maybe remove the +crit range from adrenaline/unbridled fury when MS is active? Of course the problem with that solution is that Turbine would just remove the +crit range from adrenaline period...forget I said anything.

If we're talking about it being OP against trash mobs, who cares? A caster takes care of trash mobs 10x faster than a ranged ranger.

[Faent]

First of who cares about hound at this point. Second, A barb can do the same thing.

Some kind of nerf is definitely in order. What kind? Not sure.

[Ape_Man]

Some kind of nerf is definitely in order. What kind? Not sure.

Again - why? Why is it in order?

I know it's going to happen and Turbine won't change on this, but holistically were rangers OP with this ability?

[Expalphalog]

The other thing with raid bosses (I'd assume this is where most of the problems concerning MS+Adrenaline are) is the presence of fortification. An adrenaline manyshot volley doesn't do an insane amount of damage when half the crits are resisted.

Actually, ranged Adrenaline seems to completely bypass fortification.

Perhaps it's a bug, or perhaps it's an exploit that I've unknowingly stumbled across and nobody else is seeing this behavior (it oddly wouldn't be the first time this has happened to me) but when I pull out my bow and fire up Adrenaline, the numbers are consistent whether my target is Heroic trash or Epic Raid Boss.

[mute_mayhem]

Actually, ranged Adrenaline seems to completely bypass fortification.

Perhaps it's a bug, or perhaps it's an exploit that I've unknowingly stumbled across and nobody else is seeing this behavior (it oddly wouldn't be the first time this has happened to me) but when I pull out my bow and fire up Adrenaline, the numbers are consistent whether my target is Heroic trash or Epic Raid Boss.

If that is true, then just fix that portion of it instead of completely removing adrenaline from ranged attacks.

But I'm fairly certain when I fire up adrenaline+MS against eLailat, I usually see at least 2-3 arrows from every volley not crit when adrenaline is active. Unless I'm really bad at confirming crits or misremembering this stuff.

[Expalphalog]

If that is true, then just fix that portion of it instead of completely removing adrenaline from ranged attacks.

But I'm fairly certain when I fire up adrenaline+MS against eLailat, I usually see at least 2-3 arrows from every volley not crit when adrenaline is active. Unless I'm really bad at confirming crits or misremembering this stuff.

Oh I completely agree that they should fix it instead of removing it. My original post on page 1 is indicitive of my horror at this change.

And like I said, it's possible that my Adrenaline experiences are fairly unique. I've already uncovered and reported one exploit with ranged Adrenaline (and no, I do not know how to reproduce it and wouldn't tell anyone even if I did so please don't PM me asking for an easy button) and it's possible that this is an artifact left over from that. But with Pinion, I only fail to see big orange numbers on a roll of 2 or 3.

[heavenandhell]

Ranged combat often involves so much circular backward jumping that they should continue to nerf esp one like that says -50% damage if the toon has jumped, tumbled or moved recently. Its very annoying to the game, extends quests, weak damage and just very selfish form of play. Nerf it again and again until kiting stops.

[Ape_Man]

Ranged combat often involves so much circular backward jumping that they should continue to nerf esp one like that says -50% damage if the toon has jumped, tumbled or moved recently. Its very annoying to the game, extends quests, weak damage and just very selfish form of play. Nerf it again and again until kiting stops.

Do the same to casters to then.

[sephiroth1084]

Ranged combat often involves so much circular backward jumping that they should continue to nerf esp one like that says -50% damage if the toon has jumped, tumbled or moved recently. Its very annoying to the game, extends quests, weak damage and just very selfish form of play. Nerf it again and again until kiting stops.
Then stop following them. If someone is kiting monsters, you have a few choices for what you do:


Ignore them. Either the archer will die, or the monster(s) will die, or the archer will bring them back to you, meanwhile, you continue doing something else.
Chase them, and get annoyed, while you are being ineffectual, and probably irritating others.
Form a line with your other party members perpendicular to the direction the archer is kiting and have them run through you: the monster should get "stuck" at the barrier you have formed with blade-swinging characters, and the archer can now stop running, turn and shoot.
Use some form of crowd control to halt the monster's pursuit--as a melee, this can be Trip (remember, everyone gets the ability to use this tactic, and if you have a decent Str, you can swap in a Vertigo weapon briefly to apply some decent control), Stunning Blow, Stunning Fist, or one of a variety of special weapon, class or destiny abilities. You can also instruct the party caster to lay down some CC.
Pull out a ranged weapon yourself and contribute that way.
Intimidate.

[heavenandhell]

Big game secret - kiting works but annoys everyone around you. So use this great technique when you play solo. If you join a group and you kite a lot, just announce it to the group so those who hate kiting can drop group.

Announcing you are a kiter has the same responsibility as a cleric who doesnt want to be primary healer just announce it and let the other players decide. We all play a cooperative game and its not fun when someone kites.

Just be honest and disclose you kite.

[slimkj]

Sometimes we all agree in /g to play kiting builds at once, on purpose. That's a whole bag of fun.

[sephiroth1084]

Big game secret - kiting works but annoys everyone around you. So use this great technique when you play solo. If you join a group and you kite a lot, just announce it to the group so those who hate kiting can drop group.

Announcing you are a kiter has the same responsibility as a cleric who doesnt want to be primary healer just announce it and let the other players decide. We all play a cooperative game and its not fun when someone kites.

Just be honest and disclose you kite.
Do you announce to parties that you join that you like to whine and complain?

[heavenandhell]

If you want to play an unexpected or annoying way its your game and time. Have fun DDO has a flexible character system. However, when you join a pug be honest about the non-traditional playstyle. It is not fair to announce BYOH after a party has started partway through the quest. It is not fair if youre the only caster to announce after the quest has started no buffs including haste.

The same should apply to kiting.

[-Avalon-]

Wow, so many things to say...

A: Rangers get their name from being a group of people on a "Range"... not from being Ranged Combat Specialists lol... It comes from "a man who polices and area, or range"...

B: Ranger is not JUST a ranged class, hence having Tempest PrE as well as DS and AA(shared with elves).

C: Most famous D&D ranger, Drizzt, often flew into rages (in the past represented by having 1 lvl of Barbarian)... Apparently, Turbine is giving a secondary possibility, Adrenaline from being a pure Ranger who is Epic and took FotW.

D: Adrenaline is considered a form of Rage. The idea of someone getting so ****** at an enemy and flying off the handle, then jumping AWAY from them and pulling out a bow? Really?

E: The reason ranged combat should ALWAYS be less DPS than Melee or Caster: Melees have to be in their enemy's face risking major injury at all times, so therefore get bigger bonuses; Casters have to sacrifice almost every possible form of safety (armor, HP, PRR, DR, etc etc) to have their spells, and get bonuses for that, but are still ranged, so get less than melees. It is risk vs reward. There should be absolutely no reason to think Ranged combat should EVER be even close to melee DPS, and should always be behind Casters since they are both ranged, but casters make more sacrifices than ranged people...

I do agree that "magic" should be a part of the game, and that certain things should bend the laws of reality... but you have to be careful how far you bend... Certain ideas are so far-fetched as to destroy the game... notice, we have a limit on how fast we can attack (even in PnP there is a limit due to stacking limits), casters can only cast so fast, people can only jump so high or far, etc etc... Physics and science are in the game, so don't be surprised when people have at least a decent expectation that it will apply even with magic involved...

EDIT: Forgot something, the reason that INT bonus applies to Repeaters (as previous post inquired), is that the user's knowledge of armor and weaknesses as well as anatomy of the target applies. If you know that Mind Flayers are weak in a spot right behind their tentacles or that a beholder has a tender spot located 6 inches from the occipital orbit, etc... you do more damage.

[Glenalth]

D: Adrenaline is considered a form of Rage. The idea of someone getting so ****** at an enemy and flying off the handle, then jumping AWAY from them and pulling out a bow? Really?

Meh. People do it with guns quite often.

[-Avalon-]

Yes, but from what I have gathered, to get the stacks of fury, you have to melee...

So, the situation (in modern day) would be:
two people are fighting, with weapons (baseball bats/crowbars/whatever), and as the fight gets heavier, one of them flies into a rage, runs away from the other, drops his baseball bat, and pulls out a pistol!

Hmmm... if you told a jury/cop/friend/whatever that story... I think they would say there was a bit of something fishy there.

Also, as I pointed out in another thread, comparisons on the two primal ED's:

Shiradi -
Symbol is Bow and Arrow
grants prof with longbows and shortbows
grants +1 druid/ranger caster levels
bonuses to ranged attacks
special effects to ranged attacks
has ranged stances
+ Dexterity/Wisdom

FotW -
Symbol is Great Axe
Bonuses to hit/damage with attacks
bonuses to hit/damage with melee
special effects for melee
special effects for glancing blows
Only Ranged attack mentioned is throwing a boulder
+1 Strength/Constitution

I am SERIOUSLY missing where people feel the justification to complain that FotW is not the most awesomest ED for ranged builds here... instead, they should be complaining that Shiradi just isn't cutting it!

[barecm]

Ranged combat often involves so much circular backward jumping that they should continue to nerf esp one like that says -50% damage if the toon has jumped, tumbled or moved recently. Its very annoying to the game, extends quests, weak damage and just very selfish form of play. Nerf it again and again until kiting stops.


Get Intimidation and quit complaining.

[Expalphalog]

I am SERIOUSLY missing where people feel the justification to complain that FotW is not the most awesomest ED for ranged builds here... instead, they should be complaining that Shiradi just isn't cutting it!

You said it yourself: Not all Rangers are Ranged.

I doubt that most of the compaints are coming from Arcane Archers, but rather from Tempests or other melee toons who used to use ranged weapons situationally or for the sake of versatility.

[-Avalon-]

You said it yourself: Not all Rangers are Ranged.

I doubt that most of the compaints are coming from Arcane Archers, but rather from Tempests or other melee toons who used to use ranged weapons situationally or for the sake of versatility.

If you doubt that, then you seriously are not reading the forums much...lol

Almost every thread I see may as well be getting labeled 'OMG***BBQ Adrenaline+Manyshot not working?!?' or 'Ranged toons nerfed into oblivion' or 'Proof the devs are in love with melees yet again!'

So much hate and anger towards this nerf, all because it nerfed ranged combat. Pretty much everyone is saying how making a toon based on ranged is impossible because the game is SOOO skewed towards melee and casting... all because of THIS nerf.

Please go read around, you'll see what I mean if you have an open mind/eyes... as soon as this patch hit, the forums lit up with it... They are not saying anything related to melee except, "Well, to get adrenaline working, we have to melee, but then we can back up and just use ranged" lol... They are only meleeing so they can GET adrenaline! They would much more prefer to just get adrenaline while doing ranged instead :rolleyes:

[danzig138]

I've often argued against having the bow strength feat in game.

I agree with you on this. Bow Strength should not be a feat in the game. Instead, you should just be able to go by a composite bow and have it work the way it should. IOW, you buy one rated for the amount of Strength bonus you want to apply and bam, it applies. Shouldn't cost you a feat at all.

[Cyr]

I am SERIOUSLY missing where people feel the justification to complain that FotW is not the most awesomest ED for ranged builds here... instead, they should be complaining that Shiradi just isn't cutting it!

Well that is a simple one to answer.

It is bad design to have a system where you are required to run a wide variety of destinies to reach your optimal power output while many of those destinies feature very niche build design where one type of toon does not function well in it due to arbitrary limits put in many of which seem entirely based upon flavor and not sound game design.

[Expalphalog]

Just because someone uses a bow does not automatically make them a Ranged toon. Not everybody who plays this game is a min/maxer who only wants their toon to be able to do one thing.* Some of us use ranged attacks when we feel ranged is more appropriate and use melee when we feel that melee is more appropriate. Previously, Fury was a good ED for us as it worked both ways. We could Adrenaline Manyshot for high burst damage while the enemy approached or if the enemy was unreachable, and melee the rest of the time. Now, however, the sacrifices that we made in our builds to be able to effectively ranged are wasted (at least temporarily).

As for your claim that people are saying Ranged is not viable because of this nerf, that is simply not true. People have been saying that Ranged is not viable for a long time. This nerf is a symptom, not the cause. I have yet to see anyone claim otherwise (and yes, I have read every post in these topics) so I'm not sure where you're getting that.

You said that you didn't understand how people could be justified in being upset by this change. I have given a reasonable justification.




*Please note that I am not implying that you are a min/maxer, merely that there do exist people who are not.

[Brennie]

Well that is a simple one to answer.

It is bad design to have a system where you are required to run a wide variety of destinies to reach your optimal power output while many of those destinies feature very niche build design where one type of toon does not function well in it due to arbitrary limits put in many of which seem entirely based upon flavor and not sound game design.

Almost entirely off topic, but THIS!!!

It irks me so much that the whole Twists of Fate system is built aroun dthe idea of people exploring different destinies and leveling up through them to earn fate points as well as twistable abilities. In theory, this sounds wonderful, and a great way to have some fun and adventure for a level capped character.

In reality, most characters will have only a very small number of the destinies apply to them in any meaningful way. Ranged characters feel this pain about as much as casters and healers, since most destinies offer either very little, or nothing at all, to ranged combat. And while just about every destiny has SOME universally applicable abilities, most destinies do not have enough of those to make leveling through those destinies anything less than painful.

Turbine needs to make a way to allow players to STAY in the destinies that fit their character, while earning xp in other destinies (even if those other destinies gain an XP penalty for not being "active" at the time). And, frankly, they need to make this ability available without spending TP (even if its "available" the same way True Hearts are ie. available in the store or via grinding), because i consider this a major oversight in game design, as opposed to a luxury convenience that could be sold exclusively in the DDO store.

As to the main topic athand, I unfortunately have no opinion on adrenaline vs. ranged combat. Knowing tha tthere was an exploit means we can hope that a "Fixed" version returns allowing atleast some functionality with ranged combat. I, personally, am geeked out to finally level up and try out Shiradi. but then again, I was the type of Pen and paper player who was obsessed with things like Deck of Many Things and Rod of Wonder!

[-Avalon-]

Well that is a simple one to answer.

It is bad design to have a system where you are required to run a wide variety of destinies to reach your optimal power output while many of those destinies feature very niche build design where one type of toon does not function well in it due to arbitrary limits put in many of which seem entirely based upon flavor and not sound game design.

Hmmm, so we should just take out the "completionist feat" is what you are saying? Because we have to explore and play various builds that we really don't want to play or would be very bad at playing (like I cannot play healer past around lvl 10, I just am not good at it... I am very good at melee and AoE spells though... but not very good at Insta-Kill type casters either)

But, to get that particular feat, which REALLY boosts a character's power, players have to do something they really do not enjoy doing and/or will be bad at doing...

To get the highest amount of fate points, players have to use a character that was ALREADY good, and that they enjoyed playing... and do a few things that are less than optimal, just so they can get to full power?? Ummm... ok?

My build that I am working with, will be a Death Knight type... but, I am starting off on DI, work my way up, swap to Fatesinger (sucks horribly for my build, but whatever), go to Shadowdancer (exceptionally redundant for my build, so useless as it gets), swap to GMoF?!? I managed to find a path that would work to get me through that... THEN swap to Unyielding Sentinel finally!

All that so I can have the amount of fate points I want for the ED + Twists (and have the abilities bought from DI that I want to twist in)

So, yes, I understand the concept that we have to do some stuff we don't particular think is useful or even good... But I could say the same about a great deal of D&D in general... Take a look at the duskblade class from PnP, you have to get to level 12 or 13 before you are even worth a grain of salt... and yet, people LOVE that class... 11 lvls of being sub-par to EVERYONE in your group, but is one of the favorite classes??

In DDO, isn't far from that same concept... a lot of builds are ok at first, then become kind of rough for 5-10 lvls, then blossom into true ownage at the end... If you want true power, often you have to make sacrifices...

[Brennie]

Hmmm, so we should just take out the "completionist feat" is what you are saying? Because we have to explore and play various builds that we really don't want to play or would be very bad at playing (like I cannot play healer past around lvl 10, I just am not good at it... I am very good at melee and AoE spells though... but not very good at Insta-Kill type casters either)

I've heard this used as a destiny analogy before, but i don't think it fits. TRing lets you rebuild your character from the ground up, and whatever your character is, you can build it to be good at its new role, without necessarily carrying any baggage from your previous one.

A more apt analogy would be, perhaps, stripping all your enhancements and picking up enhancements from a different class. Ultimately, the enhancements specific to YOUR class will absolutely work best for your character. In some situations, some other class enhancements may also work well. But the majority of classes will offer enhancements that have some benefit here andtehre, but are mostly non-relevant. A Wizard, for example, would get fine use out of Sorc enhancements, a little less from druid/cleric/fvs, and then everything would go downhill once they started working on fighter/barbarian/rogue etc, since there are only a very minor amount of enhancements that would have any effect on them whatsoever. And worse, they'd be missing out on the various spellpower lines and prestige bonuses that make wizards good!



But, to get that particular feat, which REALLY boosts a character's power, players have to do something they really do not enjoy doing and/or will be bad at doing...

To get the highest amount of fate points, players have to use a character that was ALREADY good, and that they enjoyed playing... and do a few things that are less than optimal, just so they can get to full power?? Ummm... ok?

My build that I am working with, will be a Death Knight type... but, I am starting off on DI, work my way up, swap to Fatesinger (sucks horribly for my build, but whatever), go to Shadowdancer (exceptionally redundant for my build, so useless as it gets), swap to GMoF?!? I managed to find a path that would work to get me through that... THEN swap to Unyielding Sentinel finally!

The idea that any character should have to slog through a bunch of unless junk enhancements, while unable to use stuff that they already unlocked that is perfectly tailored to their class/role/build is asinine. A person playing a game should never have to spend *nine times as much time* doing the unfun/irrelevant stuff as the fun/relevant stuff.

Heres another anology - Get to 20, run quests, get commendations, run raids, and get a while bunch of great epic loot that works perfectly for your character. Woo! Except, if you want that set of epic loot to be fully powered, you will need to shelve it and start working on 9 more sets of epic loot, starting at min level 20, that is *completely irrelevant to your character*. A melee would have to use a bunch of bows, throwing weapons, caster staves/sticks, robes etc, just so that they could eventually swap back to the useful loot at full power.

This seems utterly ridiculous.


So, yes, I understand the concept that we have to do some stuff we don't particular think is useful or even good... But I could say the same about a great deal of D&D in general... Take a look at the duskblade class from PnP, you have to get to level 12 or 13 before you are even worth a grain of salt... and yet, people LOVE that class... 11 lvls of being sub-par to EVERYONE in your group, but is one of the favorite classes??

In DDO, isn't far from that same concept... a lot of builds are ok at first, then become kind of rough for 5-10 lvls, then blossom into true ownage at the end... If you want true power, often you have to make sacrifices...

As a personal experience, i found my Duskblade to be ridiculously powerful at low levels. At level 5, being able to "swift" truestrike, load shocking grasp, turn power attack to full, and just rip through an enemy in one hit was pretty phenominal (Especially if i used Swift Invisibility the round before). However, that isn't particulrly relevant to this discussion, i just wanted to relive some old memories ^_^

Nowhere in the DDO handbook does it say that anyone has to suffer through being not-very-good in order to achieve maximal power. Infact, the fact that casters were for so long considered absolute rubbish at low levels has been addressed multiple times to give them a lot more "oomph" from level 1 onwards, which i think show sthat Turbine wants players to be useful and having fun throughout their leveling experience.

The bottom line is: games should be fun. Games should not encourage grind, or tedium, or points where you are unable to contribute meaningfully. The simple logic is that when games becomes unfun, or starts feeling like a chore, players stop playing them! As such, i find your appeal to "People must first suffer before than experience happiness" to be misguided at best, and flat out wrong at worst.

[-Avalon-]

No quoting this time, as my reply is pretty much a retort to the whole thing lol...

I do not see how my THF Fighter has to drop his THF and start using bows just because he is working on Shiradi Champion... I still have all the abilities and feats and enhancements I always had, I just now have an extra 'class' that does nothing to DETRACT from my power, and every moment I spend IN it, I get more powerful...

I have yet to find any ED where I couldn't at least find mediocrely useful abilities for various builds all the way to the top. Now, true enough, if you want maximum power out of the ED you are currently working on, it will require you to change your style... but there is a nice path up the right side of every tree that generally has stats that each class will find somewhat useful, and cost 2 pts per, so that is half your pts if you decide to just head straight up...

So, you mean to tell me, that there are NO abilities to buy for 2 pts to get up to the next tier that will help your toon? If so, does it really happen that often? If so, what in the world are you playing so I can avoid playing THAT build lol... I am crazy when it comes to builds, and come up with all sorts of different ideas, and have yet to find a build that couldn't do the ED stuff and get at least SOME benefit out of each ED, even if the benefit isn't AWESOME, I can at least deal with it and still enjoy playing...

And as a side note, I don't even plan on maximizing my fate points on my current character because I won't need to... by the time I get to the destiny I want, I will have enough points that I can twist the abilities I want... no need to try and maximize every single ED... won't even maximize more than 1 ED...

[Kalikorz]

Good Book, Still a Book, I'm sorry, skip to the bottom for the math to make the point quickly.

The whole issue here is where does the bow fit? It's actually quite simple. The Ranged weapon has AMMO, AKA an endless stream of damage as long as you bring enough of it.

Caster's should only have enough spells for some part of a quest. If it was PNP and their was a big adventure your caster would be hauling a cart filled with scrolls, wands, and magical items to try and fill in the gaps between gandalf moments. hell even gandalf had a sword. This is why caster's should have trouble going solo because they run out of spells and don't want to use up all their gear. DDO screws up because of SP. instead of needing to memorize the correct spells for the mission and use them at the correct time you have SP which makes all casters the same as Sorcerers and Sorcerers an over-amped version of themselves. I will give you endless wands, I will give you staves of pure awesomeness, I will give you sorcerers being able to cast a bunch of the same type of spell. Wizards are supposed to be pure preparedness class. You store x amount of spells you keep this wand in your back pocket you scribe a bunch of scrolls just in case you plan out your attack and map your way to the rest shrines. The wizard who has more than two fireballs isn't thinking clearly. He cast's something crazy awesome like haste and let's everyone else get the job done while he flicks his wand a bit. He summons a big monster and says I'm good for a while. He. Does. Not. Spam. Spells.

In DDO world the minimum you would need to do is nerf the sp. either reduce it or eliminate it. Being able to go a whole dungeon spamming acid blast as a wizard is just wrong. I have been pleasantly surprised in playing a wizard that my guy does actually try to conserve sp and that's cool but you have to balance it against the ranged guy and say my ranged guy is going to be useful for an endless stream of damage that is equal to the burst damage that I get from a caster with all his standard goodies over the course of a dungeon. You have to factor in the endless wands doing 30 damage a pop and you have to factor in the average scroll count on a wizard. Right now the wizard is way ahead especially with all the SP pots.

so 100 enemies at 100 hp each on average. Archer at about 6th level does 1d8+5+1d6 of something. The 5% of the time he does that times 3. In 20 shots he does 22d8+110+22d6 which is 148 - 418 damage he has enough arrows to hit every target at best that is just over 478 shots. at worst 1351 shots.

The wizard at 6th level currently has a wand that does about 16-24 damage since he has wand improvements. It's eternal so no need to worry about shots. His rate of fire is less but they are both probably kiting so who cares. He can cast approximately 20 splash damage spells which have an AOE damage of about 60 hitting on average 3 monsters. so in 20 shots he does between 320-480 in damage from his wand alone. Then you add the 3*60 which he can do once in 20 shots and still have enough for all 100. that is another 180. The wizard is doing from 540-660 damage every 20 shots or so. That is more than the archer at all times. This is where the system is broken. The wizard can finish the quest in 303-370 shots and he has all of those. He will not run out with only his base SP bar.

Same scenario with 1000 enemies.

Your Archer came strapped. 4784 shots later the quest could be over. ( that's 4 thin quivers. 1200*4)

Your wizard can only do 1 spell every 200 shots or .5% of the time. His wand is still endless. He may take twice as long but the wizzy can do it. 4016 shots later it is finally over though it probably took twice as long and a LOT of kiting. This is where it all goes sideways

Now you may think the problem is the endless wand. It's not if the endless wand were not magnified a ton and only did around 6-10 damage the archer would have an obvious advantage in the extended engagement which. With the addition of "spell-power" no one is going to use the endless wand of whatever they aren't amping.

Simple fix spell-power shouldn't work on wands. It's an item not you. If it's you then it should use your SP. This will make the Ranged space clearly self-evident to everyone. If your only going on short quests then obviously the wizard has an advantage but long quests with lots and lots of enemies the archer will stand out. In reality most long quests have maybe over 100 monsters with 3 rest shrines and short quests have like 20 and 1. So the game stays broken in the wizards favor while questing. However, fixing the wand damage will go a long way towards having the ranged character stand out especially in slayer runs which fits more toward the "ranger" as well. In addition nerfing SP a bit would make the buff caster much more appealing.