Celestia, Brightest Star of Day

[atxken]

Celestia, Brightest Star of Day, would a pair of these be a good reason to switch to dark monk? sadly still wouldnt have tod, but i would think the dmg from the swords would outshine, most if not all handwraps. Saw a monk/paladin/fighter useing these today.

[Potta]

The more monk levels you have, the worse these swords become.

No ToD. No QP. No Stunning Fist.

You'll lose 10% of your attack speed and 50% of your STR damage to hit in your offhand.

You'll lose 2ab.

You'll lose ToD burst effects on your damage.

It's an utterly terrible choice for anyone who would call their character a "monk".

[Munkenmo]

Celestia, Brightest Star of Day, would a pair of these be a good reason to switch to dark monk? sadly still wouldnt have tod, but i would think the dmg from the swords would outshine, most if not all handwraps. Saw a monk/paladin/fighter useing these today.

getting metal typed wraps would be a good reason to swap to dark monk.

wanting to do more dps would be a good reason to swap to dark monk.

wanting to avoid damage via shadow fade would be a good reason to swap to a dark monk.

using shortswords would not be a good reason to swap to dark monk.

[Arkat]

Sneak Attack Damage.

I'm guessing the Ninja Spy PrE will eventually grant an additional 3d6 of Sneak Attack Damage (for a total of 6d6). Add that to the 3d6 a Half-Elf Rogue Dilly gets and you'll have a total of 9d6 of Sneak Attack Damage!

Twin Radiance II Greensteel Short Swords produce a LOT of blind mobs and thus a LOT of Sneak Attack Damage.

Twin Celestias would do even better and, I believe, get thru any DR.

I don't think they're as bad a choice as some would have you believe.

Losing Touch of Death because you're using melee weapons, however, should give you pause. I've been looking at going Legendary Dreadnaught and twisting a few Grandmaster of Flowers powers to mitigate some of the losses the folks above have mentioned.

[Karavek]

Id kill for one on each of my drow, and one on my cleric/monk radiant2/ninja1 arcane archer build for when I feel melee is a must.

Actually as I am a non raider I am just trying to work up for the lesser cleric of aumuntor sword turn in and one of the purple dragon longswords for my whirling steel monk.

But I like oddly armed builds and rarely go for the typical ESOS or Khopesh or you cant do melee DPS mindset so many others do.

Twin short sword wielding 6 dark monk splashes at least are a viable user of these swords imo. Plenty of drow two weapon fighting paladins could be built in a variety of ways around these. They might not be optimal raid builds but I have no doubt each would be alot of fun to play in alot of varied content.

[wax_on_wax_off]

If they break any DR due to light damage ---> I could get on board
If not --> nfw

[Arkat]

If they break any DR due to light damage ---> I could get on board
If not --> nfw

Agreed.

[azrael4h]

Sneak Attack Damage.

I'm guessing the Ninja Spy PrE will eventually grant an additional 3d6 of Sneak Attack Damage (for a total of 6d6). Add that to the 3d6 a Half-Elf Rogue Dilly gets and you'll have a total of 9d6 of Sneak Attack Damage!

Twin Radiance II Greensteel Short Swords produce a LOT of blind mobs and thus a LOT of Sneak Attack Damage.

Twin Celestias would do even better and, I believe, get thru any DR.

I don't think they're as bad a choice as some would have you believe.

Losing Touch of Death because you're using melee weapons, however, should give you pause. I've been looking at going Legendary Dreadnaught and twisting a few Grandmaster of Flowers powers to mitigate some of the losses the folks above have mentioned.

Then go Assassin once the enhancement pass hits, get more SA damage and replace ToD with Assassinate. *Shrug*

Of course that's dependent on Half-Elves getting all PrEs as a racial like mentioned, or at least PrEs based on Dilettante.

[Arlathen]

I think with the free availability of Radiance Shortswords in random-loot weaponry, and both the Turn-In Stars of Day and of course Celestia, there's reasons why you would want to build a monk based character that could use Shortswords.

Is it top DPS? Nope.
Is it fun and different? Yep.

Could you build a really interesting angle from it though? Oh yes, definitly.

I'm planning a build around Tygara's 12 Monk/7 Druid idea, and I think Cleaving mobs with Dual Star's of Day with all the benefits that Legendary Dreadnought/Overwhelming Critical could bring could be a fun alternative to always fighting Unarmed.

Also, remember, a Monk can build his base Weapon damage up beyond what any other class is restricted to thanks to Dance of Flowers from GMoF destiny. With Improved PA and Combat Brute there's a good 5.0[W] base damage there with Epic Shortswords.

Then remember with Wind Stance 3 and further twists from GMoF (Running with Wind and Hail of Blows), a static 19.5% Doublestrike is at hand as well.

The sneak Damage really plays into this though - as Half-Elf with Rogue Dilletante, we're at a possible 6D6+13 damage counting a Seal of Avithoul or equivalent items. As an Avg +34 extra damage per strike.

A pair of ConOpp Shortswords could also be very handy for regenerating SP occasionally for the Self-Heals from Druid. As 7 Druid I can also throw out FoM self-buffs with Sleetstorms, fighting with full Sneak Damage without the need for a Blindness or a Bluff. Valid tactics if you like to shortman or solo through alot of stuff.

That said, for me it will be a fun alternative where I bring out Shortswords for the right situation, and otherwise utilise Unarmed/ToD/Stunning Fist as my principle DPS.

[edgarallanpoe]

^^^^^This.

Listen to Matt(Arlathan), he knows what he is talking about. I have never played with a guy who twists a monk in more ways than Matt.

One thing to clarify though....I'm not sure the poster above was correct in his assumption that they bypass all DR. I would have to double check that.

Just checked the Wiki and I am not noticing any metal typed bypass...am I missing something?

[Shishizaru]

^^^^^This.

Listen to Matt(Arlathan), he knows what he is talking about. I have never played with a guy who twists a monk in more ways than Matt.

One thing to clarify though....I'm not sure the poster above was correct in his assumption that they bypass all DR. I would have to double check that.

Just checked the Wiki and I am not noticing any metal typed bypass...am I missing something?

It's listed as dealing only light damage (not pierce). If this is intended and if this is WAI in-game, it should bypass all DR because DR only applies to physical damage. Imagine that all your attacks are like ticks of Divine Punishment or something.

[Potta]

You think it's viable because you can randomly proc blinds to get your sneak attack bonus? Any unarmed monk can get sneak attacks on almost any mob in the game that's also vulnerable to blinds. By Stunning Fist, the ability you give up in favor for waving around a pair of toothpicks. Stunning Fist also stops the mob attacking entirely, not just a blind penalty to hit, and makes it helpless, allowing you and your party 50% more damage to it.

5[W] sounds impressive until you remember than unarmed monks range from 7.5-9.5[W]

The sneak attack damage is better when unarmed. Monks get a 10% attack speed increase when unarmed. I'm not sure how the Druid form plays into this, but for any Monk considering shortswords, this fact alone should be enough to dissuade them.

The DR breaking aspect of these swords is also hugely overplayed. DR is basically a non-issue at the current endgame. I think the highest level raid boss with DR is EE LOB, which as Adamantine and Good is ridiculously easy for a monk to break. The next is Elite ToD. Trivial content for a decent group with their proper destinies. And now we have metal type handwraps available as lootgen items from any quest reward, and not a rarity in eDA. Vorpal Fists allows a Slashing bypass, and the new wraps give us Piercing bypass. A pair of alchemical wraps in the hands of a dark monk could bypass: Magic, Adamantine, Byeshk, Silver, Bludgeoning, Slashing, Good, Evil

Monks have it easy when it comes to DR. Throwing away important aspects of the class chasing after what the class is already good at is absurd. In fact, I'd wager that even if there was a DR type which a monk couldn't bypass without those swords, you'd still do higher damage unarmed than you would with them.

[Miow]

Mind u i love my stunning fist, but on my clonk they would be okay.

[AlteredState]

I get yellow numbers on harry even with silver applied via artificer. I did not see where it was failing to beat the dr though. Speedy number scrolling and all that.

[Potta]

Harry is Silver+Good

[Arkat]

If they break any DR due to light damage ---> I could get on board
If not --> nfw


^^^^^This.

Listen to Matt(Arlathan), he knows what he is talking about. I have never played with a guy who twists a monk in more ways than Matt.

One thing to clarify though....I'm not sure the poster above was correct in his assumption that they bypass all DR. I would have to double check that.

Just checked the Wiki and I am not noticing any metal typed bypass...am I missing something?

Check it wowo and edgarallanpoe...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=391122

Rogann did some testing and it look pretty good. Rogann does point out the LoB has Light Resistance so we'd see yellow numbers when using Celestias against him but I don't think I'm going to let that deter me from trying to get a couple for my Ninja Spy.


It's listed as dealing only light damage (not pierce). If this is intended and if this is WAI in-game, it should bypass all DR because DR only applies to physical damage. Imagine that all your attacks are like ticks of Divine Punishment or something.

Yes

[Arkat]

5[W] sounds impressive until you remember than unarmed monks range from 7.5-9.5[W]


Huh.

My Pure 20th lvl Monk has a 7.5 and that's with the twist from Legendary Dreadnaught (Improved Power Attack), Re-inforced fists, GMoF (A Dance of Flowers) and Monk Past Life included. How the heck are you getting over 7.5???

[Potta]

You get 3.5 from being pure.

Up to 4 for past life

4.5 for Reinforced Fists

6 from A Dance of Flowers

7 from ML20 item

8 from Deadly Weapons

9.5 from GMoF fire stance bonus

11 with LD imp PA twist.

[redspecter23]

As mentioned above, if I'm concerned about sneak attack on a mob, I can either stun it or use the vastly underappreciated unbalancing strike (which also works on bosses) to enable sneak attack and keep my wraps on. Shortswords will have to offer some nice perks to get me to switch to them. Perhaps ninja spy 3 will add something to make me consider it. Monks with deep splashes might get more use out of them, perhaps some pally/monk phoenix variant where you would lose smite dps (due to the bug) if you use wraps versus short swords. In that particular case, it's not so much that the swords are actually better, but that the wraps are bugged that would be cause for consideration.

[Arlathen]

You get 3.5 from being pure.

Up to 4 for past life

4.5 for Reinforced Fists

6 from A Dance of Flowers

7 from ML20 item

8 from Deadly Weapons

9.5 from GMoF fire stance bonus

11 with LD imp PA twist.

First, Improved Power Attack has only one rank for 0.5[W] increase, not three ranks for 1.5[W].

Second, Dancing with Flames only grants 0.75[W] increase, not 1.5[W] and then requires you to be in Fire Stance. A poor choice of stance unless your building a huge healing amp with Epic Jidz bracers.

Lastly, can you wrap your head around the idea of a Flavour build? For all your arguments of 'its poor DPS' some people just don't want to play a max-maths-spreadsheet in game. Some people like to play fun, flavour characters that still work at end game regardless.

[kaipan]

Btw, fyi, Celestia has [W]=1d10, while unarmed has [W]=1d6, so 5[1d10] is actually better than 7.5[1d6]: it's 27.5 average damage instead of 26.5 .

[Potta]

Fair enough, I figured I would be wrong on some of the figures as I can't get in game at the moment. Even so, I wasn't wrong in the estimate of 7.5-9.5[W]



Lastly, can you wrap your head around the idea of a Flavour build? For all your arguments of 'its poor DPS' some people just don't want to play a max-maths-spreadsheet in game. Some people like to play fun, flavour characters that still work at end game regardless.


I'll take issue with this however. How about you wrap your head around the fact that the OP specifically asked for advice pertaining to DPS and optimization and instead gets absolute tripe from people who should know better glorifying flavor builds instead. I see the same thing on these forums and /advice every day. Someone asks some build question, gets moronic advice in return and I feel compelled to wade in and potentially prevent an inevitable LR/TR for the OP later. Point out where in the OP he asked for a unique or alternative build that others found fun. He doesn't. The question is if they'd be a good idea - not a fun one - and speculating that they could beat handwraps for DPS.

It's always the same defense too, regardless of where it happens. OMG it's a flavour build, not everyone plays a spreadsheet! It's my toon and I'll play like I want! Fine, but don't try to pass it off like it's actually a good idea.

[FuzzyDuck81]

For a monk splash, i'd say they're great - I'm very much considering working on getting some for a 12fvs/6monk/2fighter build I'm working on, as hey, light damage and a certain FvS effect that produces vulnerability to light could be an interesting combo :) Combined with the rogue dilly too, it should be surprisingly powerful.

[Bosco]

Celestia, Brightest Star of Day, would a pair of these be a good reason to switch to dark monk? sadly still wouldnt have tod, but i would think the dmg from the swords would outshine, most if not all handwraps. Saw a monk/paladin/fighter useing these today.

If you are using the triple earth finisher the improved crit range may make it more viable. But tend to agree that your better off using wraps, stun fist pwns the high hp targets.

[Arlathen]

Btw, fyi, Celestia has [W]=1d10, while unarmed has [W]=1d6, so 5[1d10] is actually better than 7.5[1d6]: it's 27.5 average damage instead of 26.5 .

Very good point. So roughly:

Unarmed = 3.5[1D6] +0.5 PL +0.5 Imp PA +0.5 Rein Fists +1.0 Epic Wraps +1.5 Dance of Flowers = 7.5[D6]
Celestia = 2[1D10] +0.5 Imp PA +1.5 Dance of Flowers +1 Combat Brute = 5[1D10]

Unarmed = 26.25 Avg Dmg
Celestia = 27.5 Avg Dmg

Also, as an aside...

The more I contemplate the 12 Monk/7 Druid Unarmed & Shortsword combination build the more situational advantages I can see.

For example - 7 Druid gives access to Fatal Harrier, a very nice way to build a 25% Enhancement bonus to Melee Attack speed and the principle reason why I'm thinking of this split. While up and running, having this buff nullifies the innate 10% Unarmed Attack Speed and bring Shortswords up-to the same speed as unarmed.

Also, as good as Stunning Fist is, it's a single target lockdown mechanism and doesn't help offensively when surrounded by mobs. In heavy trash situations the dual Celestia's or even standard Radiance weaponry would work very well to Blind Mobs due to the Cleave feats you take to gain Overwhelming Critical.

Cleave's work really poorly with unarmed attacks in the game, slowing you right down, not to mention you can't cleave a Stun. Using the Shortswords however, Cleaves work very well, and open the use of Momentum Swing and Lay Waste from LD. Cleaved Blindness does works very well.

There's also an alternative in Stunning Blow for supplemental Stuns while using Shortswords in addition to everything else the build can do. 50DC+ Stunning Blows are easily possible and workable despite the increased cooldown timer that it suffers.

Furthermore, for sneak damage, the 12/7 Monk/Druid could happily throw everyone a FoM buff and then use Quickened Sleetstorms strategically. Let's see, that's effectively Displacement for every party member and auto-sneak attack for all mobs in the cloud. Rogues don't have to waste there DPS fighting the same mob as you, because they will be destroying mobs with auto Sneak Damage in the same time-space as the Monk does with there single stun-locked target.

So great option to either:

1. Open up Sneak Damage & Stunning on single targets through Unarmed & Stunning Fist, concentrating on Unarmed Attack Speed with Fatal Harrier and as much stacking Alacrity, Doublestrike and +[W] as you can find. Great for High HP, single target beatdowns where Stuns work.

2. Go with SleetStorms, Cleaving Radiance Shortswords and Mass Blindness providing additional Sneak Damage and defenses for all the party to get the most out of. Move in with Stunning Blow for the Kill. Rejoice in the (effective) Displacement + Dodge + Shadow Fade defense combo, and spot spell-heal yourself for the damage your taking.

Truly a 'have your cake, and eat it' build.

[Arkat]

You get 3.5 from being pure.

Up to 4 for past life

4.5 for Reinforced Fists

6 from A Dance of Flowers

7 from ML20 item

8 from Deadly Weapons

9.5 from GMoF fire stance bonus

10 with LD imp PA twist.

Fixed. Improved PA only adds 0.5, not 1.5 according to the text of the enhancement.

Thanks for your list. I think Deadly shouldn't count because you're not going to have an Arty in your Party all the time. I did not consider the ML20 handwraps because, well, I use Tier III Alchemical wraps which are probably better than almost any other wraps generally. I can see using some crafted ML20 wraps in certain situations though.

[Potta]

I'm not convinced Alchemicals are the better choice. The hands down best wraps are Grave Wrappings on anything that can be level drained and has enough HP to survive more than a handful of attacks. Level draining is just so ridiculously powerful on EE that no damage proc can beat it. I'm not sure exactly how it works out to be quite as awesome as it is, but I've seen mobs drop several thousand HP on a proc.

[emptysands]

I'm not convinced Alchemicals are the better choice. The hands down best wraps are Grave Wrappings on anything that can be level drained and has enough HP to survive more than a handful of attacks. Level draining is just so ridiculously powerful on EE that no damage proc can beat it. I'm not sure exactly how it works out to be quite as awesome as it is, but I've seen mobs drop several thousand HP on a proc.

Reduces their max HP and gives them a penalty to saves. Just like against players. Probably blocked by deathward.

[Potta]

Reduces their max HP and gives them a penalty to saves. Just like against players. Probably blocked by deathward.


Oh I know, but the amount of HP they drop sometimes beggars belief.