Make Raids like Litany

[Yaro]

Raids are boring (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=389643). There was considerable good-spirited feedback to my last post, so I thought I'd summarize some points and make a new post, with a suggestion.

Of all the 130+ responses, not a single person disagreed with the fact that Raids are boring. This is because they are. The problem stems from the fact that people run Raids purely for loot. So they wait till they are massively over-leveled and over-geared and then Farmville them. That is very, very dull. There are techniques for making the rest of the game more challenging (short man at level, permadeath, etc.) but these are simply difficult to do with Raids. If you're in a guild with enough like-minded individuals to put together a group for a challenging Raid, good for you! If you put up an LFM, however... it. will. not. fill.

So I would like to propose doing what DarkForte (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4656741&postcount=100) suggested:
Want people to run shroud/ToD/VoD/Hound at levels 17-20? Crank them up to give 100k+ XP first time on bravery and you'll see those groups forming like segfaults in a badly written C program.

If you put up an LFM for Litany with a max level of 18, if will never every fill. I've tried. You can wait for hours and no one will join. That's because Litany has so much XP that people will only do one of two things: run it at level or Farmville it with OP toons. Why couldn't all of the Raids be like that?

[Rathanthecool]

The reason no one joins a litany group is because every other time you want to do an litany its bugged. Litany would be fun. But its a little too hard for being the only raid of its type for new beginners. You have to have a pretty experienced player to make it though it alive.

[karsion]

The reason no one joins a litany group is because every other time you want to do an litany its bugged. Litany would be fun. But its a little too hard for being the only raid of its type for new beginners. You have to have a pretty experienced player to make it though it alive.

I think you mistook Litany for Abbot. Or vice versa.



If you put up an LFM for Litany with a max level of 18, if will never every fill. I've tried. You can wait for hours and no one will join. That's because Litany has so much XP that people will only do one of two things: run it at level or Farmville it with OP toons. Why couldn't all of the Raids be like that?

That is an exaggeration, it might be harder to fill but still doable... I have even seen it run overlevel be it for flag or xp.

[Kaytis]

I am not sure if you mean litany or abbot. But it's pretty difficult to get flagged for litany/abbot. Finding 11 other people flagged and at level is pretty unlikely at best. A lot of capable folks don't even bother due to flesh maker's. They just cap out in vale and move on to epics.

[Inferno346]

I am not sure if you mean litany or abbot. But it's pretty difficult to get flagged for litany/abbot. Finding 11 other people flagged and at level is pretty unlikely at best. A lot of capable folks don't even bother due to flesh maker's. They just cap out in vale and move on to epics.

The OP means Litany. He isn't talking about any aspect of it except the xp, which is a solid 30-40k in 5 minutes for a first time elite run. (And the funny thing about Litany is it heavily discourages grouping with anyone except very solid players who have some kind of movement speed boosts.)

But yes /signed. Raids should have maraud the mines quality xp/min because they are such a pain to flag for, build a group, and then sometimes trudge through a large explorer zone.

[arjiwan]

Problems with Abbot flagging is so 2010.

Running casually duo with my friend. We are flagged three times in the three times we leveled, without dishing out real effort. Take note: Casually.

We are also joined by pugs that completed the sigils on one run of the full chain.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On topic, I understand what the OP is saying. There should be an XP for the Raids to be run to make it smell nice.

I know I will be the minority here, but I love the concept of the Mabar dragon. Yes it was a lag-fest, yes it was horrible to some. I just love the idea of coordinating, of teamwork. Helping out each sides.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I agree with the OP 95%.

The only change I would make to the OP is to suggest that Turbine make more raids like a working version of Litany.

[Mastikator]

The weird thing about raids is that they tends to be balanced towards epic level characters, but the loot tends to be balanced to slightly above their ml (which tends to be much lower than the raid).

And by tends to be, I mean there are exceptions.

They're virtually impossible to complete without overlevel characters, and with overlevel characters they're garbage xp.
So, nerf the difficulty to reasonable levels and increase xp.

[Angelus_dead]

The weird thing about raids is that they tends to be balanced towards epic level characters
What makes you think the raids are balanced for epic characters?



They're virtually impossible to complete without overlevel characters
That's because it's hard to recruit good characters who aren't already near the cap level, not because mid-level characters couldn't win.

[HungarianRhapsody]

What makes you think the raids are balanced for epic characters?

The fact that Turbine recently adjusted all of the damage and HP numbers in raids to keep them from being boring for the level 20 characters that were running them is the most likely cause for that belief, I'd expect.

Now, they're certainly not balanced for level 25 characters with a full destiny and a few twists, but they certainly tend to be a lot closer in balance to a party of recently capped 20's than to a party of at-level first lifers.

[MrWizard]

Raids are boring (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=389643). There was considerable good-spirited feedback to my last post, so I thought I'd summarize some points and make a new post, with a suggestion.

Of all the 130+ responses, not a single person disagreed with the fact that Raids are boring. This is because they are. The problem stems from the fact that people run Raids purely for loot. So they wait till they are massively over-leveled and over-geared and then Farmville them. That is very, very dull. There are techniques for making the rest of the game more challenging (short man at level, permadeath, etc.) but these are simply difficult to do with Raids. If you're in a guild with enough like-minded individuals to put together a group for a challenging Raid, good for you! If you put up an LFM, however... it. will. not. fill.

So I would like to propose doing what DarkForte (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4656741&postcount=100) suggested:

If you put up an LFM for Litany with a max level of 18, if will never every fill. I've tried. You can wait for hours and no one will join. That's because Litany has so much XP that people will only do one of two things: run it at level or Farmville it with OP toons. Why couldn't all of the Raids be like that?

tempest spine is not boring...they should do another one !!!!

[Rathanthecool]

I think you mistook Litany for Abbot. Or vice versa.


So I did. Sorry I just saw raids + litany = abbot. I am a gimp rogue (the gimpest you've seen) and I can solo litany with a friend me zerging.

Personally, I think raids should be like litany but with something that slows you down but doesn't make it super slow just unzergable. I do not know how you could do that but to make people want to run it make it have good xp or good loot.

[Yaro]

The OP means Litany. He isn't talking about any aspect of it except the xp, which is a solid 30-40k in 5 minutes for a first time elite run. (And the funny thing about Litany is it heavily discourages grouping with anyone except very solid players who have some kind of movement speed boosts.)

But yes /signed. Raids should have maraud the mines quality xp/min because they are such a pain to flag for, build a group, and then sometimes trudge through a large explorer zone.

Thank you. Yes, I meant Litany, the 6-man pre-raid for Abbot. It's mega XP. That why you only see it run at level, unless someone is Farmvilling it for loot.

I would just like the Raids to be interesting and challenging. And played at level. Perhaps I'm in the teeny tiny minority, but I think it is a shame that all of that great content only gets zerged by over-powered, over-leveled groups Farmvilling for their TR loot. That just seems very boring to me and I think the Devs could do something about it. The only decent solution I've heard so far is to crank up Raid XP so that it looks something like Litany in terms of xp/min.

[SynalonEtuul]

I like raids! The Shroud, Zawabi's Revenge and The Twilight Forge are some of my favourite quests...

[danotmano1998]

Raids are boring (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=389643).

I disagreed then, and I still disagree.
Raids are a blast, and continue to be so, IMO.

I think this current idea you have is a lot more palatable than removing all chances at loot if you are overlevel, however. Bravo on altering your suggestion to reward with the carrot as opposed to beating with the stick.

[LightBear]

Plz no more raids like Litany. That raid sucks so much that I hardly ever will set foot in there again.

There are two fun raids in this game:
1) Tempest Spine
2) The Shroud

These two are fun because everybody gets to participate and there isn't a pre-raid quest that you have to get through to get to the actual raid.

There is one raid in this game that isn't that much fun but at least it's kinda quick:
3) The Reaver's Fate

The master mind puzzle in there is what makes it silly.

There are two raids (with a pre quest) run repeatedly mainly because of the loot:
4) Zawabi's Revenge
5) The Vault of Night (Plane of Night)

These two are doable. It's a good thing von5 gives nice xp at level, tho it is kinda long to complete.

[SirShen]

tempest spine is not boring...they should do another one !!!!

Epic Tempest Spine now that i would like.

[DarkForte]

Plz no more raids like Litany. That raid sucks so much that I hardly ever will set foot in there again.

There are two fun raids in this game:
1) Tempest Spine
2) The Shroud

These two are fun because everybody gets to participate and there isn't a pre-raid quest that you have to get through to get to the actual raid.

There is one raid in this game that isn't that much fun but at least it's kinda quick:
3) The Reaver's Fate

The master mind puzzle in there is what makes it silly.

There are two raids (with a pre quest) run repeatedly mainly because of the loot:
4) Zawabi's Revenge
5) The Vault of Night (Plane of Night)

These two are doable. It's a good thing von5 gives nice xp at level, tho it is kinda long to complete.

Good job completely missing the point. Litany isn't abbot. Litany is the Ascension Chamber prequest, and one that gives 30k for ~10 minutes the first time through.

[taurean430]

In speaking exclusively in terms of increasing the xp for a first time, at level run:

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR5XJoOqhzqoJLSH6hdddsab2lM9Avqy O-CLAkduI2Qhzilr52j

/Signed!

It's frustrating for me personally that I have to do exponentially more farming runs of quests I don't like to make up for the lost xp for raids inundated with level 25 characters. Raids that are levels 12/14/17. It's vexing...

I am not sure how other players feel about this. I have been reading the posts of others with great interest.

[Galeria]

It's frustrating for me personally that I have to do exponentially more farming runs of quests I don't like to make up for the lost xp for raids inundated with level 25 characters. Raids that are levels 12/14/17. It's vexing...


100% agree. The new level cap means everyone races to epic levels then farms low level raids.

The lack of any guild renown for Shroud is almost as bad as the loss of XP for it.

[Ungood]

If you're in a guild with enough like-minded individuals to put together a group for a challenging Raid, good for you! If you put up an LFM, however... it. will. not. fill.

Not trying to be rude here at all, but this might be the clue that the mass population of the game disagrees with you.


If you put up an LFM for Litany with a max level of 18, if will never every fill. I've tried. You can wait for hours and no one will join. That's because Litany has so much XP that people will only do one of two things: run it at level or Farmville it with OP toons. Why couldn't all of the Raids be like that?

Well congratulations, they are like that. You are just fussing that players have opted to "Farmville it with OP toons"

Here is the reality, there is no "problem" just the self evident truth that no one wants challenge when the drop rate is 1%.

[Yaro]

Not trying to be rude here at all, but this might be the clue that the mass population of the game disagrees with you.

You're not being rude, but that is my entire point. No one wants to run raids at level. If you put up an at-level LFM for a Raid, it will not fill. I would like to run Raids with at-level toons - you know, for fun - but I'm clearly in the minority here. From there I'm conjecturing as to why no one else wants to do that and, perhaps, what could be done to change that.


Well congratulations, they are like that. You are just fussing that players have opted to "Farmville it with OP toons"

Here is the reality, there is no "problem" just the self evident truth that no one wants challenge when the drop rate is 1%.

Right. So there has to be more than loot. My suggestion above is to increase xp/min. Like Litany. (The pre-Raid. Not Abbot.) Based on feedback in this post and other, I think that there might be some people who agree.

[Vint]

Right. So there has to be more than loot. My suggestion above is to increase xp/min. Like Litany. (The pre-Raid. Not Abbot.) Based on feedback in this post and other, I think that there might be some people who agree.

Not to disagree with you, but this would not really help the average pugger. If an OP toon can solo it now what incentive does he have to bring a pugger regardless of the XP?

This can be said as well for Hound/Vod/Reaver. These raids can all be short manned (by at level toons) and there is still no incentive to bring along extras.

For any information you are tracking, I am not interested in loot. I want xp more than anything at the moment, and I feel that even if Turbine did increase the XP table, people would find shortcuts in this and still not use average puggers.

[Beethoven]

Raids are boring (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=389643). There was considerable good-spirited feedback to my last post, so I thought I'd summarize some points and make a new post, with a suggestion.

Of all the 130+ responses, not a single person disagreed with the fact that Raids are boring.

Bait and switch much? People didn't disagree because you said:


Having massively over-leveled characters zerg through a raid is simply dull.

I can imagine most people equate /massively overlevel to things like zerging heroic DQ (level 14-16) with a level 20+ toon for a Litany. Hard to disagree with that.


Thank you. Yes, I meant Litany, the 6-man pre-raid for Abbot. It's mega XP. That why you only see it run at level

The same could be said about Korthos Island; you rarely see it run but at level and it is nearly impossible to fill on capped toons. Mind you, I am not disagreeing with you that the old raids could use something, but your argument is sort of weak. There is little point in running Litany but for XP. The loot coming from there isn't all that exceptional anymore compared to new end-game gear or even level 24 random chest loot.

The main reason you don't see a lot at level raids is less the lack of challenge (you want challenge, you always can run a bunch of new players and/or pugs through them, at level and on elite). It is because leveling has become so fast and easy that the reward (particularly XP) is not proportional to the time it takes to get twelve people together. I usually can run 2-3 quests (on elite) in the time it only takes a raid (pug) to form and twice as many in the time it takes the average group to complete an at level raid. And even if you manage get a raid group together, you only going to run the raid once at level because then the timer kicks in and 3 days later you likely are above level already anyway; no amount of XP is going to change that either.

So, agreed that raids should give more XP (heroic, at level anyway) but for vastly different reasons. Also, pointing out for no apparent reason, increasing the XP does not make raids more challenging only more rewarding. Finally, yes, there should be more end-game raids (new raids) or higher difficulties (epic) for existing raids. However, I do not blame existing raids having become easy because of some easy buttons, but simply because we the new level cap is significantly above the level of the raid.'

It's not necessarily a bad thing because it now gives new and casual players a better shot at completing those raids, but at the same time we need something new to entertain the hardcore crowd - raising the XP alone will not fix that though.

[MyHumps]

The fact that Turbine recently adjusted all of the damage and HP numbers in raids to keep them from being boring for the level 20 characters that were running them is the most likely cause for that belief, I'd expect.

Now, they're certainly not balanced for level 25 characters with a full destiny and a few twists, but they certainly tend to be a lot closer in balance to a party of recently capped 20's than to a party of at-level first lifers.

Raids on normal were unaffected by this change. VOD for example is a level 18 raid, so it should be possible to run it with level 18 characters with no problem. Afterwards the scaling hits pretty hard when you go to hard or elite, which I think warranted the change and in my opinion made them a bit more challenging. It's a level 20 raid on elite, and it should have been more challenging. With the recent changes in the game and level 25s being there, almost everyone who runs endgame races to 25 and you can't get XP in it anymore.

Granted, I understand your gripe about the XP being nonexistent now. I use to do a raid train every life for XP for funsies even though they are terrible XP. I wish they would up XP to at least be as good as von 5 is at level, but raids were not effected by this change you're talking about on normal difficulties. So it should be possible to run them on normal if you're still really interested.

On the subject of the OP, I really wish that they did this. I miss raiding at level so much.

[Cyndrome]

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes I run Litany at 17, and I farm it for xp. I have only run litany over level when I did not manage to get enough stupid pieces for my sigil before I had to take 18. That is really not a problem anymore due to the increased drops in the orchard.

Most of the raids I run at epic levels are epic, and, thus, not over level. In fact, I don't ever see raids that have epic counterparts run on heroic levels. I have been running Shroud a bit on elite just for fun, and I have a sorc that needs shards for another item. I think the solution lies in making more raids epic- like what they are doing with Gianthold. Epic Shroud please; it was on Lamania during beta...

[Yaro]

I hate to reiterate, but I think the original message got muddied.

Chronoscope is a level 6 quest. 8 on Elite. Try putting up an LFM for Chronoscope on Elite with a level 8 or 9 level cap. It. will. not. fill. Never. Ever. You could wait for hours and hours and hours and it will not fill. The reason is because people only Farmville that quest for TR loot, so they zerg it with massively over-level toons.

VON is level 10. Ditto.

ADQ is level 12. Ditto.

Reaver is level 14. Ditto.

Shroud is level 17, and when the level cap was 20 it was generally a decent challenge, especially if people were doing it on Hard for the extra chest. Not any more! Add Shroud to the list with the other.

Boring (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=389643).

Perhaps these quests should be relegated to the dust bin of DDO history. Out with the old! In with the new! Race to 25 and then run Raids on Epic. Or get new Raids and forget about the old ones. Or grab a few people and short man the old Raids.

I, however, would find this disappointing. It's great content and, frankly, I miss harrowing moments in the Shroud. I remember running VON when the level cap was 10. That was huge. I miss that, too.

If you don't see this as a problem, then that's cool. To each his own. I fully appreciate that many people have a different style of play. If you do think that this is an issue, and I'm under the impression that many do, what can be done about it? What do you suggest?

[Ryiah]

From there I'm conjecturing as to why no one else wants to do that and, perhaps, what could be done to change that.

Make the loot more easily obtained. Not all of us love running the same raid over and over. Outside of groups of friends, I hate running a raid more than a handful of times. Only occasionally will I keep doing it. It took 40 runs to get my Torc on one character.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Raids on normal were unaffected by this change. VOD for example is a level 18 raid, so it should be possible to run it with level 18 characters with no problem. Afterwards the scaling hits pretty hard when you go to hard or elite, which I think warranted the change and in my opinion made them a bit more challenging. It's a level 20 raid on elite, and it should have been more challenging. With the recent changes in the game and level 25s being there, almost everyone who runs endgame races to 25 and you can't get XP in it anymore.

Granted, I understand your gripe about the XP being nonexistent now. I use to do a raid train every life for XP for funsies even though they are terrible XP. I wish they would up XP to at least be as good as von 5 is at level, but raids were not effected by this change you're talking about on normal difficulties. So it should be possible to run them on normal if you're still really interested.

On the subject of the OP, I really wish that they did this. I miss raiding at level so much.

But that means breaking elite streak at the xp bottleneck. I would only consider doing this if

there was someone over level so streak doesnt break, but not so over level that the xp is a pointless waste of time

if I had already done all vale flagging, all IQ, all DD, all RR on elite and still needed some xp to get to 20

if the xp for that raid was enough to justify breaking streak. 100k for normal VoD/HoX, yeah I'de break streak for that.

[DarkForte]

I hate to reiterate, but I think the original message got muddied.

Chronoscope is a level 6 quest. 8 on Elite. Try putting up an LFM for Chronoscope on Elite with a level 8 or 9 level cap. It. will. not. fill. Never. Ever. You could wait for hours and hours and hours and it will not fill. The reason is because people only Farmville that quest for TR loot, so they zerg it with massively over-level toons.

VON is level 10. Ditto.

ADQ is level 12. Ditto.

Reaver is level 14. Ditto.

Shroud is level 17, and when the level cap was 20 it was generally a decent challenge, especially if people were doing it on Hard for the extra chest. Not any more! Add Shroud to the list with the other.

Boring (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=389643).

Perhaps these quests should be relegated to the dust bin of DDO history. Out with the old! In with the new! Race to 25 and then run Raids on Epic. Or get new Raids and forget about the old ones. Or grab a few people and short man the old Raids.

I, however, would find this disappointing. It's great content and, frankly, I miss harrowing moments in the Shroud. I remember running VON when the level cap was 10. That was huge. I miss that, too.

If you don't see this as a problem, then that's cool. To each his own. I fully appreciate that many people have a different style of play. If you do think that this is an issue, and I'm under the impression that many do, what can be done about it? What do you suggest?

Your examples are bad. eeChrono, eeVoN and eeDQ (or eh, depending on who you're with) are still a great challenge, and elite shroud will still see pugs fail regardless. Those raids have been updated for cap, and none of them are new raids. hDQ is pretty much the same thing as eDQ sans cometfalls.

The true problem with raids is VoD/HoX, which now offer subpar loot and little incentive to run at level. The problem with reavers is to be solved with epic Gianthold.

For the most part, raids are meant to be endgame. That's why the most popular raids have been updated to the new cap so as to mantain endgame status.

[janave]

Well, Litany isnt a raid even tho it has flagging system just to enter. I like litany, i would like litany transformed into a raid with raid quality challange instead of the Abbot but that ship has long gone :).

Id really like if raids would be fun, i think a great aspect of litany is the pick your enemy thing. Very impressive, player choice affecting the whole next section of a quest.

My only issue so far with Litany has been the lockroom with the 3 levers slowly, very slowly ticking. And oh the noise that comes with it :).

Raids could be a plethora of more fun if they could engage all kinds of players not just the uberskills, uberGeard, uberTRd, uberOverLeveld ones. I really like aspects of a raid that promote team collaboration, and lets you use your full utility and versatility of your class at the same time.

[Yaro]

Your examples are bad. eeChrono, eeVoN and eeDQ (or eh, depending on who you're with) are still a great challenge, and elite shroud will still see pugs fail regardless. Those raids have been updated for cap, and none of them are new raids. hDQ is pretty much the same thing as eDQ sans cometfalls.

The true problem with raids is VoD/HoX, which now offer subpar loot and little incentive to run at level. The problem with reavers is to be solved with epic Gianthold.

For the most part, raids are meant to be endgame. That's why the most popular raids have been updated to the new cap so as to mantain endgame status.

So your solution is skip all Raids while racing to 25 and then run them only at endgame on epic? I hate that idea.