Best Longbow?

[Sharnath]

I am currently using a Bow of Sinew and am looking for the best longbow I can find. I have a static group of folks I play with and we dont raid. All of us are 20+. Any recommendations are appreciated. I am an Arcane Archer with 18 warrior 1 rogue 1 wizard.

[FuzzyDuck81]

It's somewhat situational, but of non-raid loot ones the bow of sinew is certainly a very nice piece of kit, the bow of the silver flame is good too. There are also some pretty nifty randomly generated things with the new item enchantments, especially if you get some of the multi-effect prefixes & suffixes - I'm rather partial to my erosive longbow of the sun for example.

Since you're a fighter-based archer that presumably means you have all 3 tiers of kensai? the extra crit range will make on-crit effects somewhat nicer so maybe be on the lookout for "of radiance" suffix (blinds enemies on crit), "of mauling" is a good general damage type one too (slicing, bleeding & maiming).

Basically, have a look in the auction house & just see what you like the look of for various situations - and since you're an arcane archer, unless you're really after that extra +1 or +2 to hit & damage from a +6 or +7 epic weapon, just find the one with a nice low + number.. its the enchantments you want, ammo you can summon yourself in most circumstances.

[deahamlet]

The two bows from Cannith challenges, at tier 3 you can even add good and +metal arrows it bypasses DR on bosses.
Lit II is great DPS.
Epic Thornlord.
The new whatever name it has bow from the new raid.
Alchemical.

PS: You should at least consider Shroud. Thornlord is a big grind, Caught in the web is a bit much for people who usually don't run raids, and so is LoB really. But Shroud should be an easy introduction and lit II really is that nice.

[Relenthe]

Unfrotunately there aren't many quest based longbows.

The bow of sinew is probably the best you can get 6 man

From raiding you can get Unwavering Ardency from Abbot, or Pinion from caught in the web, or greensteel lit II or another variant from shroud, or alchemical from Lord of Blades

From crafting you can make the standard +5 holy burst of greater chaotic outsider, lawful outsider, or construct bane and any other baned you can craft.

Another construct option is the shatterbow which you can make epic

You can also make the longbow of earth or that greater dragon bane/crushing wave longbows from cannith challenges. These are some of your best bets if you dont raid.

That's it from the top of my head

[DeafeningWhisper]

The following is based on my own opinion/experience, I have a ftr 18, ranger 1, arty 1 Kensai III myself and a Bardcher.

Best standard damage type: Pinion from Caught in the Web, Bow of Sinew's bigger, tougher brother that does steroids on the side. Bow of Sinew will do fine until you get it, the crit profile is very nice.

Best against undead: Epic Bow of the Silver Flame, standard none epic one will do almost as good a job which is kinda sad...

Best versus damage reduction: LitII GS longbow, if and when you face a mob that has enough DR to make base damage with Sinew all but useless this guy will get the job done, also has higher then normal damage dice.

Best CC bow: Epic Elemental Longbow of Earth, improved destruction, greater stone prison on top of some nice dps effects.

Last piece of advice try to fit Precision in your build, my Kensai AA loves critting on construct, undead and targets that are otherwise uncritable. Heck with Bow of the Silver Flame you bypass 45% fortification.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Best versus damage reduction: LitII GS longbow, if and when you face a mob that has enough DR to make base damage with Sinew all but useless this guy will get the job done, also has higher then normal damage dice.


I'm sure some number crunchers can figure it out better, but in my experience the bow of sinew feels more reliable dps over time vs. the lit2's spike damage capability.. and as for DR, bow of sinew with correct ammo won't have any problems, it's got the aligned property to also get through /law & /chaos, vs. a typical lit2 which can only manage /good & /evil :)

I did forget about the cannith challenge ones though & yeah the earth longbow is very nice, just wish i could bring myself to doing those challenges to actually get one.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Personally I've trended away from named and Greensteel bows for the random generated ones. I have found that in the hands of an AA with Shiradi you can do as much if not more damage with these new bows.

My suggestion would be to find a bow with both a damage dealing prefix and suffix so you are doing as much damage per hit. Some of my personal favorites are:

Impellent
Hemrorraging
Lacerating
Corruscating
Phlembotomizing

There are also a few suffix effects that that I am fooling around with. Some proc on a confirmed critical while others proc based upon a percentage. I find that the percentage based ones proc as much as any GS. So far I would recommend you look at:

Erosive
Sun's Fury
Crusader

Just try and see what you can find at the vendors and play around with them. You'll find certain combinations are really handy and others not so much. Try to find that one combination that works for 85 to 95% of the content and then just fill in the blanks for those pesky monsters.

Good Luck

[Aliss7]

Because turbine can't fix basic things like inventory spamming arrow usage, I still carry around and use a metalline of righteousness bow, using AA returning arrows as much as possible.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The Sinew Bow you have, along with Wind Howler Bracers when rolling a crit is great stuff.

Orange, Purple & Red named, I start w/ a stat dmge Wounding/ Puncturing or a Poison Strength from Faerun, for up to 10 pts of stat damage, then follow up with GS Lightning strike, Sinew, Bow of the Silver Flame, whatever the situation calls for.

Other things you should be looking at besides just a bow, are things that augment a ranged attack, eg the wind howler bracers.

And if you're a strength based build using Bow Strength or a dex based build, there are many ways to tweak "to hit & dmge".

[elraido]

I got one from the new challenges. Not exactly sure what it can out DPS, but it is nice for a "named" random. I think it might have one more thing on it than this though, but am not 100% sure
Improved base damage for being level 20+
Acid Blast
Disintigration
Improved Cursespewing
Good Luck

[wax_on_wax_off]

Challenge bows are really strong. Even just at tier 1 the Epic Bow of Earth is great, and it even breaks DR with "Stay Good" Shiradi ability. Epic Calomel Bow wouldn't be bad as another option.

Edit: get them to tier 3 and slot them with cold iron or silver respectively and then use Flametouched arrows (vendor at start of chronoscope raid) or holy +1 crafted arrows (cheap to make for when you need a bit of extra damage).

[Karavek]

my main bows on my clonkcher for situational needs are a metaline bow of smiting, banishing bow of pure good, holy bow of disruption, sinew bow,( still working on getting a house c challenge bow) really those bows tend to cover just about every situation. being a clnkcher ofcourse means I am not afraid to use melee if its just the better choice for a sitch, but even the biggest baddest I plan to melee I always try to soften up with a many shot barrage first.

[countfitz]

I'm gonna say it: Sinew. You already have it.

Otherwise, you'd need to be talking epic levels. And you're not epic yet.

Green Steel could be fun, but not 'better' than Sinew, plus you can make better GS items before this that are more 'important.'

Sinew has: Aligned (so with the right arrows, it's a DR breaker).
The BEST Crit Profile IMO.
Includes Seeker (frees up a slot)
Includes stealth, so you won't have to kite (as much) which I personally hate.

[WruntJunior]

Personally, I just made a lit 2 longbow...even if you don't normally do Shroud, lit 2 bows are definitely nice enough to make an exception.

Bow of the Silver Flame is nice in two cases: one, being lazy against a pit fiend (it breaks DR), and two, is great against undead.

For a longer-term bow plan, trying for eThornlord and/or Pinion wouldn't be a bad idea, but these are both from raids with horrible drop rates (eThornlord being a desert explorer area item, which makes the shard and the base item rather hard to get...Pinion is in the new raid, which has extremely bad drop rates).

Challenges bows, as have been said, are nice.

In addition, random bows are occasionally awesome...for example, my construct beater is a +4 holy burst of smiting (planning to upgrade to +5 or, if I'm super lucky, +6). Just keep your eye out, and search the AH on occasion, and you can find amazing bows.

[ZeebaNeighba]

I like the unwavering ardency from abbot, as it is the beastiest looking equipment in the game...2[d12] base damage, so it's slightly better when you have point blank shot and combat archery, being 4d12 (average 26) base damage over 3d8 (average 13.5) for a standard longbow or 4d8 (average 18) for a standard epic longbow. Also it has permanent blur, I'm guessing that's kind of hard to get on a fighter since that class typically has low umd and can't cast it. Unwavering Ardency has the high crit range too, the 19-20 x3 that a lot of the good bows like your Sinew have. Flaming burst too.

Of course it's a raid bow, and one in a quite annoying raid with low drop rates too. At least there's very little benefit from upgrading it, so don't feel like if you get it, you'll need a seal too (you can blind enemies on vorpal strikes, when they fail a dc33 reflex save...but anything that fails that consistently will also instantly fall to slayer arrow and windhowler proc and extra crit damage...)

Epic Elemental Longbow of Earth or simply keeping your Sinew would be my suggestion. The earth bow gives 1d6 acid damage per arrow with acid burst (2d10 more on crits...sadly it has a normal longbow crit range) and 2d8 extra acid damage per shot (so once each time you fire your bow under manyshot too) and Disintegrate proc, which averages 9 or so extra damage per arrow, but it's a has a random 2% proc rate. Improved Destruction and some turn to stone stuff too for CC'ing. If you upgrade it, you get a red augment slot, so you can give it an alignment and then use metal arrows from the house D vendor to break the DR you want. Like Lit2.

[Ganak]

I have every significant bow in the game listed below except Epic Thornlord.



Top bow atm:

Pinion


Other Top Choices:

Cannith Challenge Epic Elemental Longbow of Earth


Alchemical - I love my Earth-Air bow (Acid Burst, Greater Stone Prison, Earthgrab, Alchemical Dexterity +2, Lightning Strike), but Cannith challenge earth bow is easier to acquire and comparable.


Lit2

Now overshadowed by Pinion and tougher to acquire:

Epic Thornlord
Unwavering Ardency


Situational:

Epic Shatterbow - Greater Construct Bane


Triple Ice Greensteel Longbow - For Fire elementals, but I go with Pinion.


Overrated:

Challenge Dragon Bane bow


Bow of the Silver Flame (I still use Triple Positive Greensteel often against non skelly undead).


Underrated:

Triple Earth Greensteel Longbow - Cheap to make (2 scales), mine is a minimum level 8 legacy greensteel made after the shroud went live before it was changed :D

Triple Positive Greensteel bow - Cheap and great for undead

[350zguy]

The best bow is obviously a Heavy Repeater!

[sirgog]

I don't recommend making a Lit 2. It works well in Eberron content but in Faerun too much is immune to lightning or heavily resistant. You wouldn't use an Incineration bow in Amrath, so don't use a Lit 2 in Faerun.

[Viisari]

From what I've seen, Pinion by so far that it's silly.

With the proper epic destiny anyway...

[DeafeningWhisper]

I don't recommend making a Lit 2. It works well in Eberron content but in Faerun too much is immune to lightning or heavily resistant. You wouldn't use an Incineration bow in Amrath, so don't use a Lit 2 in Faerun.

He's right, I've had to switch to Epic Elemental Longbow of Earth quite a bit in FR, but I would still make a LitII if only to help lvling in Eberron from lvl 12 to 20.

Oddly enough the best style of weapon that works in both is a triple earth, most others have lightning or fire which only works in one of the realms.

[krackythehoodedone]

To the OP , when you say best Bow this also depends on certain criteria.

The Epic Thornlord is definitely ''The Best Bow'' in the game for all round hitting power and damage.

However if you then add ''difficulty to make the **** thing'' into the equation it hurtles down the list because other Bows nearly as good take a fraction of the time to make.

Unless your Flukytastic expect at least 12 months grind for an E Thorn maybe more.

Lit 11 is a great start for ur 1st GS Bow and Triple Pos works well too.

Silver Flame and Alchemical Bows are pretty nice and Unwavering Ardency got a nice buff to make it worth using again

[grandeibra]

To the OP , when you say best Bow this also depends on certain criteria.

The Epic Thornlord is definitely ''The Best Bow'' in the game for all round hitting power and damage.
Errm Ethorn is past tense Kracky. Pinion outclasses it by far. It is much further ahead than eThorn was ahead of the 2nd best bow earlier.

[Darkfury]

Apache.

[Muspellsheimr]

Errm Ethorn is past tense Kracky. Pinion outclasses it by far. It is much further ahead than eThorn was ahead of the 2nd best bow earlier.

Not necessarily. Thornlord & Pinion are defiantly the two best bows in the game, but while Pinion does look better, it's not a straight comparison.

Pinion does 24.5 damage, +7 sonic per hit
Thornlord does 21 damage per hit

Pinion includes Seeker 10 & 20% alacrity, but can have problems with DR; Thornlord can get past nearly all DR in the game without artificer assistance, and that can easily put it ahead of the 10 higher damage of Pinion, even with built-in seeker (alacrity does not stack with haste, making it nothing more than convenience).

[Glenalth]

I don't recommend making a Lit 2. It works well in Eberron content but in Faerun too much is immune to lightning or heavily resistant. You wouldn't use an Incineration bow in Amrath, so don't use a Lit 2 in Faerun.

On top of that, I would no longer build one for final gear setups since you can pull an equivalent or better damage bow from loot gen now.

I might make one for TR purposes though.

[ZeebaNeighba]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Named_weapons_by_type#Longbows These are all the named longbows in the game. Except it's a little outdated, so here's Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Pinion,_Cloud-piercer) and a bow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Greatbow_of_the_Scrag) that was added to 3 barrel cove in u14. Also here (http://ddowiki.com/page/Named_weapons_by_type#Shortbows) are the named shortbows, however all four of them are pretty crappy compared to the longbows (3 of them are lowbie bows too).

Not necessarily. Thornlord & Pinion are defiantly the two best bows in the game, but while Pinion does look better, it's not a straight comparison.

Pinion does 24.5 damage, +7 sonic per hit
Thornlord does 21 damage per hit

Pinion includes Seeker 10 & 20% alacrity, but can have problems with DR; Thornlord can get past nearly all DR in the game without artificer assistance, and that can easily put it ahead of the 10 higher damage of Pinion, even with built-in seeker (alacrity does not stack with haste, making it nothing more than convenience).
So if I assume Point Blank Shot and Combat Archery...in point blank range of course...then let's see what happens.

Pinion already had 24.5 physical damage, it now gets +4d6 to increase to an average of 38.5 (45.5 with sonic). Thornlord goes from 21 to 34. I guess I can assume that you have maybe +30 to physical damage (from stuff like strength, ranger past lives, elf enhancements, wind howler bracers, whatever). Pinion gets to an average of 68.5 damage (75.5 with sonic), Thornlord is 64. Pinion gets an average of 235.5 damage on criticals (242.5 with sonic). If I assume you have seeker +6 from somewhere else (Drow Smoke Goggles, basic Bloodstone, Epic Ring of the Stalker, etc) then Thornlord can get 210.

Interestingly, if you have VERY high bonuses to your physical damage, Bow of Sinew gets stronger than Epic Thornlord, since when you crit with a bow of sinew on a roll of 19 or 20, your damage is multiplied by 4 instead of 3. I'll do that comparison again...assuming Point Blank Shot, Combat Archery, Seeker +6, and then I'll play around with the other stuff. I'll also assume 3 tiers of Kensei, so you get +1 critical range on Longbows and a stacking +4 seeker.

Epic Thornlord gets the same old 34 base damage, while Bow of Sinew gets 3d8 + 5, for an average of 18.5, so you start pretty far behind. Epic Thornlord can crit for 132 damage, while bow of sinew crits for 91.5 or 122 depending on the specific roll (it has an innate +8 seeker). So with no bonuses to your physical damage, Epic Thornlord is still always ahead. But with a ridiculous bonus...well, Thornlord gets 34 damage+bonuses (which I will now call x) on a roll of 2-15, or 70% of the time. 25% of the time, on rolls of 16-20, it gets 132 + 3x. 5% of the time it does nothing (misses). Add it all up, and on an average hit, Thornlord gets 56.8 + 1.45x. On rolls of 2-15 for Bow of Sinew, you get 18.5+x damage. On rolls of 16-18, 91.5+3x damage. On rolls of 19-20, 122+4x damage. And on a roll of 1, nothing. Add all that up, and you get an average of 38.875+1.55x damage.

So Bow of Sinew gets an extra 1/10 of your bonuses to physical damage, while Thornlord starts out with 17.925 extra damage per shot. So theoretically, if you can get a whopping +180 to your physical damage, (maybe by having 370 strength? heh...well, you already must have +2 damage from kensei, because I assumed you have that, so only 366 strength now) Bow of Sinew wins :D If I did my math right, that is. Getting past Pinion will be even more ridiculous...

[Ravoc-DDO]

Pinion > eThorn

Pinion + DW < eThorn + DW

[ZeebaNeighba]

Pinion > eThorn

Pinion + DW < eThorn + DWI'm trying to think what DW is and all that comes to my mind is Death Ward...

[wayreth602]

I'm trying to think what DW is and all that comes to my mind is Death Ward...

Deadly Weapons spell maybe.

[Dolphious]

At what amount of multipliable damage does a bow of sinew beat a litII or the elemental longbow of earth?

My bet is that it's a lot higher than most people are thinking. Sure crit profile is king for Kensais and FBs that have massive STR and additional crit bonuses, but I'm skeptical that Joe-Average AA is hitting the damage bonus levels that would make the bow of sinew crit profile beat the static bonuses of a LitII, ELoE, or epic lootgen with nice mods.

[Viisari]

*snip*

Wrong, Pinion is 2,5[2d6].

And I very much doubt Thornlord could outclass Pinion unless DR is an issue, I've seen horrible things being done with that bow I tell ya.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Wrong, Pinion is 2,5[2d6].So that's what I misread. Sigh. On to editing that mess.

[Mindos]

and i already gave zeeba +1

[ShadowFlash]

Oh my Gosh! someone mentioned the word "bow" so lets all list every GS and rare RAID epic bow we have, and then let's do some math comparing pinion and Ethornlord! That really helps the OP :rolleyes:


I am currently using a Bow of Sinew and am looking for the best longbow I can find. I have a static group of folks I play with and we dont raid. All of us are 20+. Any recommendations are appreciated. I am an Arcane Archer with 18 warrior 1 rogue 1 wizard.

Bow of Sinew is it. While new random lootgen can be fun, and certainly can "compete", I think you'll find your self using sinew more than anything. Situational Bows of course...smiting...banishing...disrupting...all can be very useful under the right conditions.

Bow of the Silver Flame is decent situationaly, and you stand a good chance of epic'ing it in your static group. There's a lot of good gear in that chain, so your group may decide to farm it anyhow. It's also one of the only ways for you to get any sort of epic bow under your playstyle constraints.

On other suggestions...
Precision (feat): If you have a spare feat, work it in..../agreed

Wind Howler Bracers: I don't understand the allure, this should NOT be 20+ gear. They are mildly nice if you pull them early to use for a few levels. It's a whopping +1 damage per hit, and a 17.5 damage vorpal (they'll almost always make the save). With sinew, and slayer arrows, the extra 17.5 is really nothing to even think about. If anything, Thaarak bracelet is a better choice for that slot usually (but nothing to do with ranged).

The majority of my play time is spent under your exact conditions of static grouping (we do raid here and there, but not enough to factor into gear farming, GS included)

ShadowFlash

[ZeebaNeighba]

Oh my Gosh! someone mentioned the word "bow" so lets all list every GS and rare RAID epic bow we have, and then let's do some math comparing pinion and Ethornlord! That really helps the OP :rolleyes:



Bow of Sinew is it. While new random lootgen can be fun, and certainly can "compete", I think you'll find your self using sinew more than anything. Situational Bows of course...smiting...banishing...disrupting...all can be very useful under the right conditions.

Bow of the Silver Flame is decent situationaly, and you stand a good chance of epic'ing it in your static group. There's a lot of good gear in that chain, so your group may decide to farm it anyhow. It's also one of the only ways for you to get any sort of epic bow under your playstyle constraints.

On other suggestions...
Precision (feat): If you have a spare feat, work it in..../agreed

Wind Howler Bracers: I don't understand the allure, this should NOT be 20+ gear. They are mildly nice if you pull them early to use for a few levels. It's a whopping +1 damage per hit, and a 14.5 damage vorpal (they'll almost always make the save). With sinew, and slayer arrows, the extra 14.5 is really nothing to even think about. If anything, Thaarak bracelet is a better choice for that slot usually (but nothing to do with ranged).

The majority of my play time is spent under your exact conditions of static grouping (we do raid here and there, but not enough to factor into gear farming, GS included)

ShadowFlashWell...I think a lot of people in here pointed out that Bow of Sinew will get pretty nice with no raiding and that anything else won't be a huge difference...I was just min-maxing for fun since I didn't ever do the math on my own time and I was kind of curious. I already knew assuming that people always hit on a 2 and confirm their criticals was stretching it there.

Also Wind Howler's Sonic proc doesn't seem to match its description. When I use it, it seems to do about 40-50 sonic damage without a save. So it's a little better, an average of about 1.5 extra damage per shot, if that wasn't a bug that got fixed while I wasn't looking and wasn't playing my ranged toons.

[ShadowFlash]

Well...I think a lot of people in here pointed out that Bow of Sinew will get pretty nice with no raiding and that anything else won't be a huge difference...I was just min-maxing for fun since I didn't ever do the math on my own time and I was kind of curious. I already knew assuming that people always hit on a 2 and confirm their criticals was stretching it there.

Also Wind Howler's Sonic proc doesn't seem to match its description. When I use it, it seems to do about 40-50 sonic damage without a save. So it's a little better, an average of about 1.5 extra damage per shot, if that wasn't a bug that got fixed while I wasn't looking and wasn't playing my ranged toons.

Fair enough, but it wasn't just you I was commenting on :p

Your experience with WH's dosen't match ours at all, but haven't bothered to use them for a while. I don't like using the typical melee math form of averaging vorpals to a per/hit value in this case as the value is much lower than most other forms of vorpal hits and contribute far less to the big picture with slayer arrows (especially with sinew). That was my main point on not using them. For an Arti, they can be nice, as they lack the "punch" of AA's. I suppose, you could argue for monkchers based on a higher RoF, but for the typical fighter based AA, I think they're rubbish.

ShadowFlash

[Glenalth]

I am currently using a Bow of Sinew and am looking for the best longbow I can find. I have a static group of folks I play with and we dont raid. All of us are 20+. Any recommendations are appreciated. I am an Arcane Archer with 18 warrior 1 rogue 1 wizard.

Depending on how much damage you are pumping into Sinew, it can be pretty awesome compared to most heroic tier bows.

As for the best longbow you can find: http://itemwiki.cubicleninja.com/Items/ItemDetails.aspx?itemID=2302

Ideally you want to cover a few bases...
* Decent DR breaker. Most epic bows can fill this role well and the bow to shoot for is Epic Thornlord with an appropriate red augment crystal and arrows.
* Something that will hit most mobs pretty hard. Pinion is the target here. Epic Thornlord and Unwavering Ardency are the runners up.
* Something that will hit 100% fort mobs pretty hard. A Lit II is pretty good as well, but you can probably find an epic loot gen bow that will be just as good or better and will affect more mobs. Triple positive greensteel is unbeatable for non-lich/non-skeleton undead in this category.
* Some sort of CC ability for when it's needed. Typically paralyzing at lower levels, but look at Epic Elemental Longbow of Earth or a random Erosive bow later on. Triple Earth greensteel or alchemical earth fit in here pretty well. A plain wounding bow can work well for most mobs until you get into hard and elite epics.




On my end of things, with the acquisition Pinion, I banked a lot of bows that I used to carry for situational use. Here's what I'm looking at now...

For General Damage...
* Using Pinion + Prowess focus. There's just nothing quite like it.
* Swap to Epic Thornlord + Litany for high DR devils, but since there aren't any at end game right now I'm not swapping much.

For Undead...
* Swapping between Triple Positive and Epic Silver Flame depending on DR amounts and if the party is melee heavy enough to warrant debuffing instead of damage.

Random stuff...
* Alchemical Earth + Water depending on how much CC the group has or when there are large groups of mobs when soloing.
* Epic Elemental Longbow of Earth, still gets pulled out for groups of Trolls to keep them from regenerating. Mostly for soloing.
* A Metalline + Aligned longbow for when I'm feeling lazy about DR. Doesn't come out much due to how much damage Pinion puts out over a non-epic +1 Longbow though.
* Lit II, though I can't remember the last time I actually used it. It's probably going into the bank soon.
* Cormyrian bow with some decent damage mods and wounding for the occasional con damage.

[Glenalth]

Pinion > eThorn

Pinion + DW < eThorn + DW

Nope.

2d6 vs 1d8+2
Pinion gets +0.5 average base damage over Epic Thornlord from Deadly Weapons.
Same for Point Blank Shot.
Same for Combat Archery once they fix it to actually do more than just add 2% dodge.

The more damage dice you add, the more Pinion pulls away.

[kanbeki]

Last piece of advice try to fit Precision in your build, my Kensai AA loves critting on construct, undead and targets that are otherwise uncritable. Heck with Bow of the Silver Flame you bypass 45% fortification.

Wait a combat stance works on bows? Can anyone confirm

[Viisari]

Wait a combat stance works on bows? Can anyone confirm

Precision does. You should have it on an archer.

It's possibly even worth ditching Power Attack on melee characters and get Precision only.

[Sharnath]

I would like to thank everyone for the input so far. About to start work on a Cannith Challenge bow since I already have a stack or two of random pieces needed from helping out friends grind dungeon tokens. Got the Wind Howler Bracers but haven't seen that much of a difference..maybe I just need to look a bit closer. I did pick up a treasure gen bow or two situationally and plan to get the Silver Flame bow tomorrow. Once again thank you all for the input.

Sharnath

[ddonoobgamer]

* A Metalline + Aligned longbow for when I'm feeling lazy about DR. Doesn't come out much due to how much damage Pinion puts out over a non-epic +1 Longbow though.


What bow are you talking about? I'm not aware of any bow with both metalline and aligned. The +1 you mentioned doesn't matter to an AA.

[Glenalth]

What bow are you talking about? I'm not aware of any bow with both metalline and aligned. The +1 you mentioned doesn't matter to an AA.

Cannith crafted.

The +1 matters since I don't just use arcane arrows.

[ddonoobgamer]

Cannith crafted.

The +1 matters since I don't just use arcane arrows.

Yeah, I wasn't saying whether it mattered to you, I was saying the +1 you mentioned doesn't matter to an AA meaning it's a very useful bow for an AA. That's why I was asking you what bow it is.

[barecm]

Greensteel to lvl 20, lite II is the bow.
Bow of Sinew is ok against mobs the are immune to lite and such.
You can always carry a pack full of bows for every situation, since each mob will be slightly different.

For new content....

alchemical fire bow is awesome:

I made mine for cannith and it works also in new area:
+2 alchemical str
righteous (pass good dr and +2 damage vs evil)
seeker +10
flaming blast
flaming burst
incineration
fiery detonation
adamantine (was good when I made it, but still works)

Not so hot vs devils etc... but that is no where I am at nowadays so...

So thats some pretty big damage.

Still, for non critical, non vorpal attacks, Pinion will be better. If you are running fatesinger, you will see even bigger numbers with the sonic debuff thing.

For crowd control, make an acid version or use the cannith challenge bow as a cheaper, just about the same bow.

[Viisari]

for non critical, non vorpal attacks, Pinion will be better.

Precision -25%
Improved Sunder -10%
Black Dragonhide Armor -10%
Grim Precision -15%

That's -60% fort on raid bosses you can pretty much count on having, -50% without improved sunder.

There are *very* few situations where Pinion doesn't come out on the top, currently Pinion probably has the highest burst dps in the game, yes, that includes comparisons against Draconic Incarnation sorcs.

[Raithe]

There are *very* few situations where Pinion doesn't come out on the top...


Assuming missing on a 1 and graze on a 2:

Pinion (+7 to hit)
Base damage: 24.5 (17.5 Base, 7 enhancement) x 18 = 441
Crit damage: (24.5 x 4) + (10 x 6) = 158
Shrieking: 7 x 18 = 126
-----------------------------------------------------------
Total: 725

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Bane (craftable) (+9 to hit)
Base damage: 18 (9 Base, 9 enhancement) x 18 = 324
Crit damage: (18 x 4) + (6 x 6) = 108
Holy Burst: 7 x 18 + (14 x 2) = 154
Greater Bane: 10.5 x 18 = 189
-----------------------------------------------------------
Total: 775

A bow I picked up first few days of MotU:

+3 Dynamo of Greater Elf Bane (+9 to hit w/ +5 arrows)
Base damage: 18 (9 Base, 9 enhancement) x 18 = 324
Crit damage: (18 x 4) + (6 x 6) = 108
Dynamo: approx. 11 x 18 = 198
Greater Bane: 10.5 x 18 = 189
-----------------------------------------------------------
Total: 819

[Fomori]

Precision -25%
Improved Sunder -10%
Black Dragonhide Armor -10%
Grim Precision -15%

That's -60% fort on raid bosses you can pretty much count on having, -50% without improved sunder.

There are *very* few situations where Pinion doesn't come out on the top, currently Pinion probably has the highest burst dps in the game, yes, that includes comparisons against Draconic Incarnation sorcs.
Don't forget that if you have monks with Grave Wrappings then someone is tagging them with 4 stacks of Improved Destruction as well for another -8%

[Viisari]

Base damage: 24.5 (17.5 Base, 7 enhancement) x 18 = 441

Base damage: 18 (9 Base, 9 enhancement) x 18 = 324

Base damage: 18 (9 Base, 9 enhancement) x 18 = 324


Quoted the actually relevant parts.

Hint: It has to do with epic destinies.

[Chaimberland]

I'm sure some number crunchers can figure it out better, but in my experience the bow of sinew feels more reliable dps over time vs. the lit2's spike damage capability.. and as for DR, bow of sinew with correct ammo won't have any problems, it's got the aligned property to also get through /law & /chaos, vs. a typical lit2 which can only manage /good & /evil :)

I did forget about the cannith challenge ones though & yeah the earth longbow is very nice, just wish i could bring myself to doing those challenges to actually get one.

My arcane ranger uses both the sinew bow and the litII bow along with arcane slaying arrows. It has been my experience that the lit II does more damage and with a blood stone the slaying arrows crit frequently. But if you don't raid then the sinew bow is the best you can unless you do the house c challenges or get some nice drops from the Eveningstar quests.

[Glenalth]

Assuming missing on a 1 and graze on a 2:

Pinion (+7 to hit)
Base damage: 24.5 (17.5 Base, 7 enhancement) x 18 = 441
Crit damage: (24.5 x 4) + (10 x 6) = 158
Shrieking: 7 x 18 = 126
-----------------------------------------------------------
Total: 725

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Bane (craftable) (+9 to hit)
Base damage: 18 (9 Base, 9 enhancement) x 18 = 324
Crit damage: (18 x 4) + (6 x 6) = 108
Holy Burst: 7 x 18 + (14 x 2) = 154
Greater Bane: 10.5 x 18 = 189
-----------------------------------------------------------
Total: 775

A bow I picked up first few days of MotU:

+3 Dynamo of Greater Elf Bane (+9 to hit w/ +5 arrows)
Base damage: 18 (9 Base, 9 enhancement) x 18 = 324
Crit damage: (18 x 4) + (6 x 6) = 108
Dynamo: approx. 11 x 18 = 198
Greater Bane: 10.5 x 18 = 189
-----------------------------------------------------------
Total: 819

You forgot a couple things here...
Expanded crit range
Damage bonuses from strength, gear, feats, and enhancements.

So using your format...

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Bane updates to
775 + (Damage Bonus x 22)

Dynamo of Greater Bane
819 + (Damage Bonus x 22)

Pinion (+7 to hit)
Base damage: 24.5 (17.5 Base, 7 enhancement) x 18 = 441
Crit damage: (24.5 x 8) + (10 x 12) = 316
Shrieking: 7 x 18 = 126
-----------------------------------------------------------
Total: 883 + (Damage Bonus x 26)


Also not included...
+4/+4 from planar conflux + 104 to total
+1[W] from Point Blank + 182 to Pinion total, + 99 to the others
+1[W] from Combat Archery (once it starts working)
+X[W] from various epic destinies and twistable abilities and various active attacks

[grandeibra]

You forgot a couple things here...
Expanded crit range
Damage bonuses from strength, gear, feats, and enhancements.

So using your format...

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Bane updates to
775 + (Damage Bonus x 22)

Dynamo of Greater Bane
819 + (Damage Bonus x 22)

Pinion (+7 to hit)
Base damage: 24.5 (17.5 Base, 7 enhancement) x 18 = 441
Crit damage: (24.5 x 8) + (10 x 12) = 316
Shrieking: 7 x 18 = 126
-----------------------------------------------------------
Total: 883 + (Damage Bonus x 26)


Also not included...
+4/+4 from planar conflux + 104 to total
+1[W] from Point Blank + 182 to Pinion total, + 99 to the others
+1[W] from Combat Archery (once it starts working)
+X[W] from various epic destinies and twistable abilities and various active attacks
This! Pinion is so far ahead it is pretty much an eSoS for ranged vs no/low DR or with arti

For very hi DR depending on toon eThorn or some other bows like the +5 HB greater baner may surpass it

[ddonoobgamer]

* A Metalline + Aligned longbow for when I'm feeling lazy about DR. Doesn't come out much due to how much damage Pinion puts out over a non-epic +1 Longbow though.

I asked about this bow before and you mentioned it was Cannith crafted. But why would it be +1? At first I assumed it was because the effects used up a lot of levels so you couldn't fit +5, but I was leveling crafting today and noticed both are only +3. So ...

aligned +3
metalline +3
+5 enhance +5
---------------
+11 = ml22

Why would you not make a +5 metalline/aligned longbow?

[wax_on_wax_off]

This! Pinion is so far ahead it is pretty much an eSoS for ranged vs no/low DR or with arti

For very hi DR depending on toon eThorn or some other bows like the +5 HB greater baner may surpass it

Also worth noting that Greater Bane doesn't apply the +4 att/dam to bows for whatever reason according to testing in another thread.

[WruntJunior]

I asked about this bow before and you mentioned it was Cannith crafted. But why would it be +1? At first I assumed it was because the effects used up a lot of levels so you couldn't fit +5, but I was leveling crafting today and noticed both are only +3. So ...

aligned +3
metalline +3
+5 enhance +5
---------------
+11 = ml22

Why would you not make a +5 metalline/aligned longbow?

If it's a met/aligned bow for an AA, it doesn't need a +5...you're using infinite +5 arrows.

[ddonoobgamer]

If it's a met/aligned bow for an AA, it doesn't need a +5...you're using infinite +5 arrows.

Yeah that's actually what I said earlier in the thread (post 42), but it's not for an AA. He doesn't have AA.

[Glenalth]

I asked about this bow before and you mentioned it was Cannith crafted. But why would it be +1? At first I assumed it was because the effects used up a lot of levels so you couldn't fit +5, but I was leveling crafting today and noticed both are only +3. So ...

aligned +3
metalline +3
+5 enhance +5
---------------
+11 = ml22

Why would you not make a +5 metalline/aligned longbow?

It's +1 because I couldn't make it +0 and have it break DR/Magic due to some weird bugs with the way arrows are handled. I was doing a lot of TRs and wanted the level to be as low as possible.

And I do have an AA, I just don't always use the arcane arrows.

[ddonoobgamer]

It's +1 because I couldn't make it +0 and have it break DR/Magic due to some weird bugs with the way arrows are handled. I was doing a lot of TRs and wanted the level to be as low as possible.

And I do have an AA, I just don't always use the arcane arrows.

Ah ok, I mis-interpreted the part on your being AA. But it does seem odd that you would carry a +1 DR-breaker bow into end game and not a +5 version. When the expansion opened up, I re-crafted all my crafted weapons using the higher 2[W] damage which would have ml20 anyways. I can't imagine carrying a crafted +1 1[W] weapon into end game even for rare use.

[Glenalth]

Ah ok, I mis-interpreted the part on your being AA. But it does seem odd that you would carry a +1 DR-breaker bow into end game and not a +5 version. When the expansion opened up, I re-crafted all my crafted weapons using the higher 2[W] damage which would have ml20 anyways. I can't imagine carrying a crafted +1 1[W] weapon into end game even for rare use.

Like I said before, it doesn't see much use any more. And if it's end game stuff, I'm not going to be lazy about arrows anyway.

[ddonoobgamer]

Like I said before, it doesn't see much use any more. And if it's end game stuff, I'm not going to be lazy about arrows anyway.

Don't really want to get into an argument here, but it's just that your original comment made it sound like you're saying that it's only a +1 bow :

* A Metalline + Aligned longbow for when I'm feeling lazy about DR. Doesn't come out much due to how much damage Pinion puts out over a non-epic +1 Longbow though.


So I just find it odd that you would not make it +5 given your comment (not to mention 1[W] vs 2[W] from recrafting post-expansion). That's all. Anyways, this is my last post on this thread just to avoid possible unintended conflicts.

[kaobang]

Hello,

Everybody seems to like the Bow of Sinew, so I did some calculations (please correct if errors).
The goal is just to compare longbows, not to determine the damage per shot (no slayer arrows ...).

Assuming:
+5 arrows, pbs, ic, seeker +6, no deadly weapons, no fort, no DR, loot/crafted bows are not epic (just 1d8), force ritual, hit on a 2.



Example: dmg mod = 20

# Bow of sinew: http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bow_of_Sinew
+5 1d8 19-20 x3, elasticity, seeker +8

base = 5 + 2*4.5 +20 = 34
typ = base +force ritual = 35
crit 19-20 = 4*(base + seeker) +force ritual = 4*(34 +8) +1 = 169.0
crit 17-18 = 3*(base + seeker) +force ritual = 3*(34 +8) +1 = 127.0
average = 1/20 *[(15*typ) + (2* crit 19-20) + (2* crit 17-18)] = 1/20*1117 = 55.9

# Silver longbow:http://ddowiki.com/page/Silver_Longbow
+2 1d10 19-20 x3, holy

base = 5 + 2*5.5 +20 = 36
typ = base + holy + force ritual = 36 +7 +1 = 44
crit 17-20 = 3*(base + seeker) + holy + force ritual = 3*(36 +6) +7 +1 = 134
average = 1/20 *[(15*typ) + (4* crit 17-20)] = 1/20*1196 = 59.8

So Versus evil, with a damage mod of 20, the Silver longbow beats the Bow of sinew by ~4 average damage.




Using the same approach (and a spreadsheet), the average damage per shot are:
For Pinion assuming +4 damage from planar focus.
Assuming disrupting/smiting taking effect, so dismiss the longbows in the lists below if not valid)
I took into account the att/dmg +4 for greater bane.

Fort 0, dmg mod = 20 (some bows are vs undead/construct only)
================================================== ====
#2 GS Triple pos 82.9
#3 Unwavering Ardency 71.1
#4 alchy EWE 71
#5 eThornlord 68.7
#6 Holy Smiting 66.8
#7 holy burst of greater bane 66.4
#8 eShatterbow 66.1
#9 GS lit II 65
#10 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 64.6
#11 eElem 63.5
#12 Silver Longbow 59.8
#13 GS lit II w/o holy 58.4
#14 Holy of Bane 57.5
#15 eSilver Flame 56.2
#16 Bow of Sinew 55.9
#17 Silver Longbow w/o holy 53.2


Fort 0, dmg mod = 40 (some bows are vs undead/construct only)
================================================== ====
#1 Pinion 115.5
#2 GS Triple pos 105.9
#3 Unwavering Ardency 98.1
#4 eThornlord 95.7
#5 alchy EWE 94
#6 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 91.6
#7 Holy Smiting 89.8
#8 holy burst of greater bane 89.4
#9 eShatterbow 89.1
#10 GS lit II 88
#11 Silver Longbow 86.8
#12 eElem 86.5
#13 Bow of Sinew 84.9
#14 GS lit II w/o holy 81.4
#15 Holy of Bane 80.5
#16 Silver Longbow w/o holy 80.2
#17 eSilver Flame 79.2


Fort 0, dmg mod = 60 (some bows are vs undead/construct only)
================================================== ====
#1 Pinion 142.5
#2 GS Triple pos 128.9
#3 Unwavering Ardency 125.1
#4 eThornlord 122.7
#5 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 118.6
#6 alchy EWE 117
#7 Bow of Sinew 113.9
#8 Silver Longbow 113.8
#9 Holy Smiting 112.8
#10 holy burst of greater bane 112.4
#11 eShatterbow 112.1
#12 GS lit II 111
#13 eElem 109.5
#14 Silver Longbow w/o holy 107.2
#15 GS lit II w/o holy 104.4
#16 Holy of Bane 103.5
#17 eSilver Flame 102.2


Fort 75, dmg mod = 20 (precision = 100 - 25 = 75 on undead/construct)
================================================== ====
#1 GS Triple pos 76.1
#2 Pinion 67.4
#3 alchy EWE 63.6
#4 Holy Smiting 60.4
#5 holy burst of greater bane 59.3
#6 GS lit II 58.2
#7 eShatterbow 58.2
#8 eElem 56.2
#9 Unwavering Ardency 55.1
#10 eThornlord 51.7
#11 GS lit II w/o holy 51.6
#12 eSilver Flame 50.9 (with fort 75-20 weaken undead = 55)
#13 Holy of Bane 50.7
#14 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 48.6
#15 Silver Longbow 46.3
#16 Silver Longbow w/o holy 39.7
#17 Bow of Sinew 38.9


Fort 75, dmg mod = 40 (precision = 100 - 25 = 75 on undead/construct)
================================================== ====
#1 GS Triple pos 96.1
#2 Pinion 88.4
#3 alchy EWE 83.6
#4 Holy Smiting 80.4
#5 holy burst of greater bane 79.3
#6 GS lit II 78.2
#7 eShatterbow 78.2
#8 eElem 76.2
#9 Unwavering Ardency 76.1
#10 eThornlord 72.7
#11 eSilver Flame 71.7 (with fort 75-20 weaken undead = 55)
#12 GS lit II w/o holy 71.6
#13 Holy of Bane 70.7
#14 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 69.6
#15 Silver Longbow 67.3
#16 Silver Longbow w/o holy 60.7
#17 Bow of Sinew 60.4


Fort 75, dmg mod = 60 (precision = 100 - 25 = 75 on undead/construct)
================================================== ====
#1 GS Triple pos 116.1
#2 Pinion 109.4
#3 alchy EWE 103.6
#4 Holy Smiting 100.4
#5 holy burst of greater bane 99.3
#6 GS lit II 98.2
#7 eShatterbow 98.2
#8 Unwavering Ardency 97.1
#9 eElem 96.2
#10 eThornlord 93.7
#11 eSilver Flame 92.5 (with fort 75-20 weaken undead = 55)
#12 GS lit II w/o holy 91.6
#13 Holy of Bane 90.7
#14 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 90.6
#15 Silver Longbow 88.3
#16 Bow of Sinew 81.9
#17 Silver Longbow w/o holy 81.7


Note: I guess most of us have around 40 damage mod;)

Please tell me if it seems correct, thx.

[Glenalth]

Also worth noting that Greater Bane doesn't apply the +4 att/dam to bows for whatever reason according to testing in another thread.

Unless something has changed recently, this was working for loot gen and semi-broken on some named items like Epic Shatterbow last time I checked.

[Glenalth]

Don't really want to get into an argument here, but it's just that your original comment made it sound like you're saying that it's only a +1 bow :


So I just find it odd that you would not make it +5 given your comment (not to mention 1[W] vs 2[W] from recrafting post-expansion). That's all. Anyways, this is my last post on this thread just to avoid possible unintended conflicts.

It is only +1.

Still have 3-4 TRs to go.

[scoobmx]

easy. there are only 2.
vs DR: Epic Thornlord with slotted Heaven's Light crystal
no DR: Pinion
done.

[kaobang]

Pinion + stay good + house D arrows can break dr (from ddo wiki).

Now I'm unsure if it's a loss of dps compared to prism stance and eThornlord.

[blerkington]

Hi,

For the people who don't like maths, this may help.

The crazier looking the bow is, generally the more damage you'll be doing using it.

I'm thinking of you, Unwavering Ardency, eThornlord and Pinion.

I hope that this helps, and also that this trend in crazy appearances for endgame bows doesn't continue.

Thanks.

[barecm]

Hi,

For the people who don't like maths, this may help.

The crazier looking the bow is, generally the more damage you'll be doing using it.

I'm thinking of you, Unwavering Ardency, eThornlord and Pinion.

I hope that this helps, and also that this trend in crazy appearances for endgame bows doesn't continue.

Thanks.

eThornlord looks like regular Thornlord; which looks like a lvl 1 bow. But yes on the others.

[Brennie]

Awesome Info Kaobong, +1. I've been curious lately how unwavering Ardency and LitII stack up against each other.

I'm curious what triple pos looks like WITHOUT factoring in Greater Disruption for 0 fort enemies (Since, y'know... zero fort undead aren't terribly common). I'm also curious why Epic longbows of Earth is behind litII. I did some rough calculations way back when, which put it ahead... however that is when it had 2d6 base damage, which doubled with PBS to give it an edge. Are you factoring in Point Blank range for all these calculations, or did the [w] change really knock epic bows down a notch or three?

Upon recalculating just now, these bows seems roughly equal. Just taking into account the weapon effects of both bows and assuming shocking burst/acid burst and lit strike/disintegration cancel each other out, Epic Earth seems like it is behind by only 2.8 damage per hit. +5 Holy (7) and shocking blast (1.8) vs. +6 and acid arrow (5), so 13.8 - 11 = 2.8 difference. However, this is not factoring in base damage form bows, as I can't find reference to greensteel or epic longbow of earth's new values. Assuming greensteel is 1.5[1d8] and epic longbow of earth is 2[1d8], then we get ~8.05 vs. 10.8 base damage (including crits w/ improved crit, but not PBS, as PBS should affect both equally).

In total litII = 21.85 and Epic Earth = 21.8, factoring in only base damage and non-equivalent damage effects

My math is very ... imprecise, but it seems like these two bows should be roughly equal, shouldn't they?

[kaobang]

thank you;)

I found two errors in my calculations:
- I added the vorpal effect of blast (4d6) for all crit (benefit to GS lit II)
- I took eElem of earth at +5 instead of +6



Assuming:
+5 arrows, pbs, ic, seeker +6, no deadly weapons, no fort, no DR, loot/crafted bows are not epic (just 1d8), force ritual, hit on a 2.

dmg mod = 20:


Lit II: +5 1.5[1d8] 20x3, holy, shocking burst, shocking blast, lightning strike (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4160323)

base = 5 + (1.5+1pbs)*4.5 +20 = 36.25
typ = base + holy + shocking burst + lightning strike + force ritual = 36.25 + 7 + 3.5 + 8.13 + 1 = 55.88
crit20 = 3*( base + seeker) + holy + shocking burst + shocking blast + lightning strike + force ritual
crit20 = 3*(36.25 + 6) + 7 + (3.5 + 2*5.5)burst + (2*5.5 + 4*3.5)blast + 8.13 + 1 = 126.75 + 7 + 14.5 + 25 + 8.13 + 1 = 182.38
crit19 = crit20 - vorpal blast effect = 182.38 - 4*3.5 = 168.38
avg = 1/20 * [(17*typ) + crit20 + crit19] = 1/20*1300.72 = 65.0 (it was 66.4 with the error)

eElem of earth: +6 2[1d8] 20x3, acid burst, greater acid arrow, disintegration (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176176)

For the greater acid arrow I took 1.43 avg per shot.
it is 2d4 (avg 5) dmg every 2s, but the value here is added for every shot.
Assuming 70 shot/min and in 1 min there is 10s of MS, N shot/min = (50-70 +4*10*70)/60 = 105 shots/min
acid dmg / min = 5*60/2 = 150, the the avg acid dmg per arrow is: 150/105 = 1.43

base = 6 + (2+1pbs)*4.5 +20 = 39.5
typ = base + acid burst + greater acid arrow + disintegration + force ritual = 39.5 + 3.5 + 1.43 + 10 + 1 = 55.4
crit = 3*( base + seeker) + acid burst + greater acid arrow + disintegration + force ritual
crit = 3*(39.5 + 6) + (3.5 + 2*5.5)burst + 1.43 + 10 +1 = 163.4

avg = 1/20 * [(17*typ) + 2*crit] = 1/20*1268.6 = 63.4 (it was 62.3 with the +5 instead of the +6)


For any dmg mod, Lit II is a couple avg dmg ahead of the eElem T3.

I corrected my first post to reflect the changes.

[MindCake]

Unless something has changed recently, this was working for loot gen and semi-broken on some named items like Epic Shatterbow last time I checked.

Some two months ago it appeared not to be working (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4612727&postcount=43) on random lootgen.

[wax_on_wax_off]

thank you;)

I found two errors in my calculations:
- I added the vorpal effect of blast (4d6) for all crit (benefit to GS lit II)
- I took eElem of earth at +5 instead of +6



Assuming:
+5 arrows, pbs, ic, seeker +6, no deadly weapons, no fort, no DR, loot/crafted bows are not epic (just 1d8), force ritual, hit on a 2.

dmg mod = 20:


Lit II: +5 1.5[1d8] 20x3, holy, shocking burst, shocking blast, lightning strike (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4160323)

base = 5 + (1.5+1pbs)*4.5 +20 = 36.25
typ = base + holy + shocking burst + lightning strike + force ritual = 36.25 + 7 + 3.5 + 8.13 + 1 = 55.88
crit20 = 3*( base + seeker) + holy + shocking burst + shocking blast + lightning strike + force ritual
crit20 = 3*(36.25 + 6) + 7 + (3.5 + 2*5.5)burst + (2*5.5 + 4*3.5)blast + 8.13 + 1 = 126.75 + 7 + 14.5 + 25 + 8.13 + 1 = 182.38
crit19 = crit20 - vorpal blast effect = 182.38 - 4*3.5 = 168.38
avg = 1/20 * [(17*typ) + crit20 + crit19] = 1/20*1300.72 = 65.0 (it was 66.4 with the error)

eElem of earth: +6 2[1d8] 20x3, acid burst, greater acid arrow, disintegration (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176176)

For the greater acid arrow I took 1.43 avg per shot.
it is 2d4 (avg 5) dmg every 2s, but the value here is added for every shot.
Assuming 70 shot/min and in 1 min there is 10s of MS, N shot/min = (50-70 +4*10*70)/60 = 105 shots/min
acid dmg / min = 5*60/2 = 150, the the avg acid dmg per arrow is: 150/105 = 1.43

base = 6 + (2+1pbs)*4.5 +20 = 39.5
typ = base + acid burst + greater acid arrow + disintegration + force ritual = 39.5 + 3.5 + 1.43 + 10 + 1 = 55.4
crit = 3*( base + seeker) + acid burst + greater acid arrow + disintegration + force ritual
crit = 3*(39.5 + 6) + (3.5 + 2*5.5)burst + 1.43 + 10 +1 = 163.4

avg = 1/20 * [(17*typ) + 2*crit] = 1/20*1268.6 = 63.4 (it was 62.3 with the +5 instead of the +6)


For any dmg mod, Lit II is a couple avg dmg ahead of the eElem T3.

I corrected my first post to reflect the changes.

Greater Acid Arrow usually applies its first tick every time you attack giving a solid 5/hit damage and the dot if you stop attacking. However, sometimes it stops applying and I never figured out why.

Can you do the calculation for an alchemical earth/water/earth +7 bow?

[blerkington]

eThornlord looks like regular Thornlord; which looks like a lvl 1 bow. But yes on the others.

Hi,

Does it? I thought it looked unusual, but now I can't find a picture.

So I must have been confused. Again.

Thanks.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Greater Acid Arrow usually applies its first tick every time you attack giving a solid 5/hit damage and the dot if you stop attacking. However, sometimes it stops applying and I never figured out why.

Can you do the calculation for an alchemical earth/water/earth +7 bow?

Also, you can use cheap cannith crafted +1 holy arrows on the earth bow which isn't an option on the litII.

[Brennie]

(math...)
For any dmg mod, Lit II is a couple avg dmg ahead of the eElem T3.

I corrected my first post to reflect the changes.


Greater Acid Arrow usually applies its first tick every time you attack giving a solid 5/hit damage and the dot if you stop attacking. However, sometimes it stops applying and I never figured out why.

Can you do the calculation for an alchemical earth/water/earth +7 bow?

I think this is where the discrepancy is coming from. Greater acid arrow applies its first "Tic" every time you do damage, pretty much making it 5 more damage on average per hit. Its subsequent tics aren't even worth mentioning, since the are only 2.5 damage per second, and only if you have stopped attacking your enemy. Which is pretty pathetic.

I haven't experienced it "not working anymore", as Waxer (Can i call you that?) has, but i honestly haven't used it all that much (My archer has been on a pretty quick TR train everytime he hit 20). I think if you recalculated with correct values for acid arrow, you would find that eEarth is only mildly behind. Due to its other goodies, and (imho) less streaky burst/blast and better proc, I think I prefer it for 20+. However, it'll be hard to talk myself into using it when unwavering ardency seems to blow it out of the water...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/68685609/ddo/Roadwatch%20Bow.jpg

Also: Can we talk about the u16 preview bow? This is, i believe, the Epic Normal version. Epic Elite version should be something along the lines of 2.5 [2d8] base, 20/x3 with +7 enhancement 3d6 law damage + aligned + Superior Heartseeker (My calcs have this doing 9 extra damage per hit). However, it woudl be foolish to even try to calculate the EE version until we see definitive proof of what it is.

Warning: Quickmath just for comparison purposes (I'm not factoring in misses, PBS or base damage. I will be comparing against eEarth t2 as it would have equal benefits from seeker, bonus damage, PBS and the like. I am assuming Improved Crit, however);

EpicNormal Roadwatch Bow: 11.25 base + 2.25 extra base damage on crits + 7 law + 7.65 damage from greater Heartseeker = 28.15 average

Epic Longbow of Earth: 9 base + 1.8 extra base on crits + 3.5 Acid + 1.1 burst + 5 acid arrow + 9.15 Disintegration = 29.55 average

So Epic longbows of Earth is decently ahead, without even factoring in Stone Prison or Improved Destruction. Roadwatch bow would, obviously, pull ahead against any kind of alignment DR, assuming the archer doesn't have alternate DR breaking abilities (Alignment damage arrows, t3 Stay Good stance, or whatehaveyou). In theory the Epic Elite version of the bow would outstrip eEarth bow by about 4 points per hit. HOWEVER, i think that bow woudl still be miles behind some of the better bows on Kaobang's list (Pinion/Ardency), but i don't have the skills to calculate differing crit ranges or attack speeds, nor do we know exactly what the EE bow looks like. Overall, though, i have to say i am very much *not* impressed.

[kaobang]

Wowo, I had to do some research on the alchy bows since I own none.

So (assuming 15.2 changes) the +7 alchy EWE is:
+7, 2 [1d8], 20 x3, acid burst, crushing wave, corrosive salt, acid torrent

Acid torrent is 15d6 on vorpal with a DC ... for my calculations I assumed that the dices are not loaded and that it's resisted (half damage) half the time:
so on vorpal: 15*3.5 * (1 + 0.5)/2 = 39.375 dmg by vorpal crit
Ideally you can confirm this behavior vs typical EH mobs.

Results are in the updated list.

Brennie, the new bow looks like a high level lazy DR breaker, waiting to get the final stats.

[WruntJunior]

Wowo, I had to do some research on the alchy bows since I own none.

So (assuming 15.2 changes) the +7 alchy EWE is:
+7, 2 [1d8], 20 x3, acid burst, crushing wave, corrosive salt, acid torrent

Acid torrent is 15d6 on vorpal with a DC ... for my calculations I assumed that the dices are not loaded and that it's resisted (half damage) half the time:
so on vorpal: 15*3.5 * (1 + 0.5)/2 = 39.375 dmg by vorpal crit
Ideally you can confirm this behavior vs typical EH mobs.

Results are in the updated list.

Brennie, the new bow looks like a high level lazy DR breaker, waiting to get the final stats.

My main question for considering second tier water...does crushing wave still screw with the arcane cold DoT (can't remember the name)?

Edit: The new bow looks like a good contender until the shard of the thornlord decides to start existing for me, as a replacement for now for my bow of sinew as a general DR breaker (assuming the EE version is good).