According to Fernando Piaz

[susiedupfer]

There is no cleric Epic Destiny in the works for this year. Only a primal one. I am just making sure that all clerics know this.

[DanteEnFuego]

It must be the vitamins and restorative powers of fruit and bananas, right.

[DanteEnFuego]

He didn't mention FvS or other "newer" class ToD rings or PrEs either...

[Luxgolg]

I guess turbine doesnt think this is a priority, because as we all know, no one plays clerics anyways

[luvirini]

I guess turbine doesnt think this is a priority, because as we all know, no one plays clerics anyways

Well, I really like the leap of faith on my cleric.. so a cleric destiny would have to be really great to top that..

[DeafeningWhisper]

Well, I really like the leap of faith on my cleric.. so a cleric destiny would have to be really great to top that..

I was thinking just that, it's true that so far only TWF build lack a proper destiny so it makes sense that they add one for them.

[Zirun]

Well, Clerics are close enough to Favored Souls that there really isn't a need for a second Divine caster destiny. They'd overlap too much.

At least with the Arcane casters, there's significant differences between them (damage vs. CC) that can be expanded upon in a Destiny.

[Saravis]

Well if the "Oops that wasn't meant to be in there yet" mechanic that was in Lamania a patch or 2 ago is a hint to whats to come soon, then clerics might be getting a bone thrown at them in the form of Domains.

If that's the case, they can shove any plans for a cleric ED to the side.

[teh_meh]

Well if the "Oops that wasn't meant to be in there yet" mechanic that was in Lamania a patch or 2 ago is a hint to whats to come soon, then clerics might be getting a bone thrown at them in the form of Domains.

If that's the case, they can shove any plans for a cleric ED to the side.

Clerics are already very powerful. They don't need domains or more loot love. Turbine needs clerics to be clerics and heal parties. Give them too many toys and you'll never see them again because they'll be off playing with themselves exclusively.

OK, I'm exaggerating. But you get the point, other classes need buffing WAY more than clerics.

[Veriden]

Clerics are already very powerful. They don't need domains or more loot love. Turbine needs clerics to be clerics and heal parties. Give them too many toys and you'll never see them again because they'll be off playing with themselves exclusively.

OK, I'm exaggerating. But you get the point, other classes need buffing WAY more than clerics.

Healing isn't the only thing a cleric does. Like every other class in the game, there is more than one viable way to play a cleric. If you want a baby sitter get a hireling. I personally play my cleric offensively and aggressively. And it works great. I'll heal a team mate if I determine I need them, if not well there are potions and scrolls they can use.

[Saravis]

Clerics are already very powerful. They don't need domains or more loot love. Turbine needs clerics to be clerics and heal parties. Give them too many toys and you'll never see them again because they'll be off playing with themselves exclusively.

OK, I'm exaggerating. But you get the point, other classes need buffing WAY more than clerics.

You have it backwards, you give clerics more toys, then they'll be happier to support parties. You ignore their desires and treat them like healb****es, then they'll resent you and tell you to heal your own raid.

[arminius]

I wonder what the Primal one is going to be? More explicitly Druid? I wonder if they'll pull the offensive caster stuff out of Shiradi then.

To me it seems the most glaring missing destiny is a Tempest one. Shiradi is a strange conglomeration of archers and caster druids. Dreadnaught is all about skills and tactics, and Fury is two handed focused. There isn't anywhere for a non-fighter two weapon melee to go.

My Tempest is currently heading toward Sentinal primary with Sense Weakness as the major twist. It isn't ideal but it at least gives some decent hit points, extra fort, and saves.

[Miow]

Healing isn't the only thing a cleric does. Like every other class in the game, there is more than one viable way to play a cleric. If you want a baby sitter get a hireling. I personally play my cleric offensively and aggressively. And it works great. I'll heal a team mate if I determine I need them, if not well there are potions and scrolls they can use.

No one said there isn't other viable ways to play a cleric....you failed your sarcasm exaggeration roll. Btw with that attitude why bring any "teammates" at all? I hope at least you inform the potential crew that you will determine if you need them thus might provide some healing.

[bigolbear]

Clerics are already very powerful. They don't need domains or more loot love. Turbine needs clerics to be clerics and heal parties. Give them too many toys and you'll never see them again because they'll be off playing with themselves exclusively.

OK, I'm exaggerating. But you get the point, other classes need buffing WAY more than clerics.

I loathe and despise everything you said there, posibly excepting the part about exagerating.

characters are in my sig - feel free to add me to your bad healers list now and save us both some trouble, assuming of course you not just yanking our chains.

[bigolbear]

I wonder what the Primal one is going to be? More explicitly Druid? I wonder if they'll pull the offensive caster stuff out of Shiradi then.

To me it seems the most glaring missing destiny is a Tempest one. Shiradi is a strange conglomeration of archers and caster druids. Dreadnaught is all about skills and tactics, and Fury is two handed focused. There isn't anywhere for a non-fighter two weapon melee to go.

My Tempest is currently heading toward Sentinal primary with Sense Weakness as the major twist. It isn't ideal but it at least gives some decent hit points, extra fort, and saves.

give fate singer a shot, it might just surprise you. same goes for unyeilding sentinal.

Both add dps options which are essentialy multiplied by 1.8 for 2wf.

[Carkolda]

Clerics are already very powerful. They don't need domains or more loot love. Turbine needs clerics to be clerics and heal parties. Give them too many toys and you'll never see them again because they'll be off playing with themselves exclusively.

OK, I'm exaggerating. But you get the point, other classes need buffing WAY more than clerics.

Clearly, you've never played a cleric. If you had, you'd realize that your statement is way off-base and completely insulting to clerics. Clerics serve a lot of purposes besides "heal parties." You want a healbot, buy a hireling. When I run a raid with my clonk that is weak on DPS, I get up in melee to heal with my aura while adding more DPS to the mix. But by your definition, I have no business being up in melee. Clerics, under the original idea, are supposed to be up in melee. Why else would they be given heavy armor prof with shields and no spell failure?

[Auralana7214]

I'll be extremely surprised if Clerics ever see anything new. I've given up hope. Prestiges, Destinies, how about Domains? It's a FTP Class that is getting the shaft. Some devs say that FTP has nothing to do with it, but actions speak louder than words.

[teh_meh]

Clearly, you've never played a cleric. If you had, you'd realize that your statement is way off-base and completely insulting to clerics.

I called them very powerful. You're insulted?

[Karavek]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

The above is my interpretation of what has been done to those playing the cleric since year one.

[PNellesen]

Why would Clerics (aka "healers" in DDO parlance) need an ED anyway? You get Mass Cures and Mass Heal. Just hide behind some phallic-shaped object, pop out from behind it, toss your heal, then run back behind it and browse YouTube until you're needed again. What more do you want?

(Sheesh, all these silly forum elitists who seem to think that Clerics should somehow be allowed to have as much fun as sorcerers and wizards...)

/sarcasm, since this sometimes need to be stated explicitly..

[Luxgolg]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

The above is my interpretation of what has been done to those playing the cleric since year one.

Agreed. It is one of the only classes other players feel the right to tell you how it SHOULD be played. "If you didnt want to be a nanny-bot, you should have gone FvS"

[countfitz]

You have it backwards, you give clerics more toys, then they'll be happier to support parties. You ignore their desires and treat them like healb****es, then they'll resent you and tell you to heal your own raid.

You're both wrong.

People simply won't play them. At all. Solo or PUG or Raid.

[Pantronic]

I was thinking just that, it's true that so far only TWF build lack a proper destiny so it makes sense that they add one for them.

Where, pray tell, is the Artificer destiny?

[Expalphalog]

I wonder what the Primal one is going to be? More explicitly Druid? I wonder if they'll pull the offensive caster stuff out of Shiradi then.

I'd guess that they'll leave Shiradi as-is and make Avatar one geared towards melee Druids and Tempests. Probably some TWF/Unarmed love. Or so I hope anyway.

[Khatzhas]

There is no cleric Epic Destiny in the works for this year. Only a primal one. I am just making sure that all clerics know this. We do get to keep the current cleric one though don't we?
Other than trying to stir up trouble, I'm not sure what the purpose of the thread though.


I wonder what the Primal one is going to be? More explicitly Druid? I wonder if they'll pull the offensive caster stuff out of Shiradi then. My best guess: Shapeshifting: enhancing wildshape and giving it to other classes.


I loathe and despise everything you said there, posibly excepting the part about exagerating. It unfortunately had a modicum of truth however: Clerics are one of the more powerful classes currently, and they happily run solo through quests that some other classes would need backup in.
By making healers powerful so that they would be popular, to ensure groups are supported, they have ended up with the situation that healers need groups much less than groups need healers.

The bad experiences that many healers have with groups is a separate issue due to player attitudes that only exacerbates the problem.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Where, pray tell, is the Artificer destiny?

Well we have 3 caster destinies and a ranged destiny, so pick one of the 4 that fit the bill I guess? I'm talking play styles here, not specific class destinies, TWF is not a class.


I went with Fatesinger myself, for a support arty.

[madmaxhunter]

I love diva clerics (I'm on my cleric life and working on my divaness). I'll say again what was I've said before, a cleric in a party that won't heal the party is akin to a rogue who refuses to do traps. I rarely needed a cleric, I know how to pot quests. For offensive capability, I'll take a wizard/sorc/fvs over a cleric every time.

I grew up with D&D as a TEAM activity.

Oh, and if there are those who think this is failed /sarcasm, it isn't, it's how I feel.

Clerics do not need to be nannies or healbots. Clerics can contribute much to the offensive capability of the party, I love soundburst, great low-level crowd control. When the number 2 hits the fan, I'll switch to healer role. See, I'm a cleric.

back to topic, I don't want Epic Destinies or PREs right now. Too many bugs. Turbine needs to focus their attention on that. If they did put out EDs or PREs now, they would probably bug the game more than it already is.

[Chai]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

The above is my interpretation of what has been done to those playing the cleric since year one.

The issue I see is that many people play offensive casting clerics in place of, rather than in addition to, taking care of their party members HP bars.

It really isnt too tough to do both. If Im on a divine caster and I lay down a blade barrier, chances are I have the aggro or the mob is dead. Healing for the party needed = not much. If I greater command most of the mobs to the floor and the melee are beating on them, healing needed = not much. When it IS NEEDED, I do USE IT however - as do any divine caster who plays 100% of their class.

In short, an offensive casting divine is not so much a reactionary repair tool but more of a proactive mitigation device. A successful greater command or cometfall uses less mana than waiting for the melee to engage and then healing their red bars up in a reactionary fashion.

Im fine with both offensive casters or battle clerics (in fact I encourage them), but a divine who absolutely refuses to drop a heal on someone whose red bar is going south is playing 50% of their class. They are playing offensively in place of, rather than in conjunction with, their healing abilities. Those are the only "clerics" who deserve to be in that chair, heh.

[Chai]

My best guess: Shapeshifting: enhancing wildshape and giving it to other classes.



This.

Theres quite a bit of lore on specific barbarian tribes that turn into animals when they go berserk - Fyodor of Rashemen being a prime example.

[Auralana7214]

The issue I see is that many people play offensive casting clerics in place of, rather than in addition to, taking care of their party members HP bars.

It really isnt too tough to do both. If Im on a divine caster and I lay down a blade barrier, chances are I have the aggro or the mob is dead. Healing for the party needed = not much. If I greater command most of the mobs to the floor and the melee are beating on them, healing needed = not much. When it IS NEEDED, I do USE IT however - as do any divine caster who plays 100% of their class.

In short, an offensive casting divine is not so much a reactionary repair tool but more of a proactive mitigation device. A successful greater command of cometfall uses less mana than waiting for the melee to engage and then healing their red bars up in a reactionary fashion.

Im fine with both offensive casters or battle clerics (in fact I encourage them), but a divine who absolutely refuses to drop a heal on someone whose red bar is going south is playing 50% of their class. They are playing offensively in place of, rather than in conjunction with, their healing abilities. Those are the only "clerics" who deserve to be in that chair, heh.

I am sure that there are clerics who play this way. There are people who play every way imaginable. I don't know any, but that's beside the point. The person you quoted was pointing out that Clerics have been thought of by other classes as "healers," which we are not, unless that is, of course, your play style.

I don't think there is a wrong way to play. I do think it is wrong to push every person who plays one class into one role, which is what I think the quoted person was trying to say.

This thread isn't about the role of a cleric, though. It's about the fact that it seems there is nothing new on the horizon for Clerics.

[Ausdoerrt]

It must be the vitamins and restorative powers of fruit and bananas, right.

I'm sure he means this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

We should get an ED for that! :D

[Ancient]

The issue I see is that many people play offensive casting clerics in place of, rather than in addition to, taking care of their party members HP bars.

It really isnt too tough to do both.
This!!!

The toughest part of doing both isn't monitoring the red bars, it is target management. There are some places where this is done quite well... You can swing a weapon, hit a mob while having a team-mate targeted. You can cast implosion and blade barrier while having a team-mate targeted.

There are other places where the targeting game interface is a little rough. It would be nice if a few convince things were changed to make it easier from a game mechanics perspective.
Radiant burst targeting
An option to make harm spells treated as non-offensive spells (and thus couldn't be cast on opponents). This would allow divines to heal pale-masters without spinning in place like a radar turret.
An option to make heal/cure spells treated as non-offensive spells (again, this would mean they could not be cast on opponents). This would make heal spells behave consistently without changing the default target based on what you are fighting.
An easy way to clear your target (Escape brings up the menu)
An easy way to go back to your previous target
A way to mark a party target or to select the party target
A way to see the health of your targets target

[Ancient]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

*Minutes earlier*
With a loud thwooosh, the chair and binds that held the favored soul were no match for the cloud of feathers that propelled her forward. As she made her escape, the loud bellows indicated that the barbarian's wrath was now directed at the poor cleric. She could free him, but what would be the point. True freedom wouldn't come until they had spent enough time working with the kobolds in the mines of king turbine to earn a mystical heart of wood.

Yeah, all of my former clerics are now favored souls. I do agree that clerics need some love.

[rdasca]

The issue I see is that many people play offensive casting clerics in place of, rather than in addition to, taking care of their party members HP bars.

It really isnt too tough to do both. If Im on a divine caster and I lay down a blade barrier, chances are I have the aggro or the mob is dead. Healing for the party needed = not much. If I greater command most of the mobs to the floor and the melee are beating on them, healing needed = not much. When it IS NEEDED, I do USE IT however - as do any divine caster who plays 100% of their class.

In short, an offensive casting divine is not so much a reactionary repair tool but more of a proactive mitigation device. A successful greater command or cometfall uses less mana than waiting for the melee to engage and then healing their red bars up in a reactionary fashion.

Im fine with both offensive casters or battle clerics (in fact I encourage them), but a divine who absolutely refuses to drop a heal on someone whose red bar is going south is playing 50% of their class. They are playing offensively in place of, rather than in conjunction with, their healing abilities. Those are the only "clerics" who deserve to be in that chair, heh.

Wow the world has now ended, I actually agree with something Chai posted.
+1 Sir.

[Rodomonte]

Clerics are already very powerful. They don't need domains or more loot love. Turbine needs clerics to be clerics and heal parties. Give them too many toys and you'll never see them again because they'll be off playing with themselves exclusively.

OK, I'm exaggerating. But you get the point, other classes need buffing WAY more than clerics.

Wow, did people really read this post and interpret it as saying "clerics should only heal"? Or even worse, "clerics CAN only heal"?

[Grosbeak07]

Guess I must be one of the few clerics happy with the current angelic destiny?

[Chai]

I am sure that there are clerics who play this way. There are people who play every way imaginable. I don't know any, but that's beside the point. The person you quoted was pointing out that Clerics have been thought of by other classes as "healers," which we are not, unless that is, of course, your play style.

I don't think there is a wrong way to play. I do think it is wrong to push every person who plays one class into one role, which is what I think the quoted person was trying to say.

This thread isn't about the role of a cleric, though. It's about the fact that it seems there is nothing new on the horizon for Clerics.

The destinies are not limited to specific classes. Whatever role the cleric player chooses to play, they can choose a destiny that compliments that role. Saying they need to put something in the game for clerics assumes that clerics DO play a certain role.

If they put in a radiant destiny that amps up healing and killing undead, some people will nerd rage that Turbines vision for clerics is "stand back and heal" - so the question becomes What qualifies as being "for clerics?"

I think most destinies qualify to be honest.

Exalted Angel - obvious choice - ramps up healing and light abilities.
Unyeilding Sentinel - survivability, moar HP, PRR etc.
Shiradi - for AA type clerics
Fury - melee battleclerics
LD - melee battleclerics
GMOF - clonks with decent wis scores.
Draconic - DCs, spell pen, and offensive arcane type AOEs
Magister - DCs, spell pen

I prob wouldnt go fatesinger or shadowdancer seriously on a cleric - but maybe someone has a reason to, who knows. The question remains: What do we consider a destiny to be that is "for clerics". If we are arguing that we cant just pin them down into a specific role, thats a tough question to answer.

[Siro]

Wow, did people really read this post and interpret it as saying "clerics should only heal"? Or even worse, "clerics CAN only heal"?

They saw, "They don't need domains or more loot love." Which is like saying fighters don't need feats, barbarians don't need rage, etc.

[Rodomonte]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

The above is my interpretation of what has been done to those playing the cleric since year one.

This cleric deserves what he gets... he forgot that Greater Command has no somatic component.

[Moonsickle]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

The above is my interpretation of what has been done to those playing the cleric since year one.




So you're saying in DDO... the quests were designed that a Cleric was not needed for "group healing" just their offensive prowess???







and not sure actually what the Barbarian said is suppose to mean?

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again."




but you do realize... INT & WIS are dump stats for Barbarians... so I'm positive no true Barbarian would utter such a thing... then again maybe it wasn't meant to mean anything, just a Barbarian trying to make himself sound smart???




As for your vision of Cleric treatment... if you depicted a scene from "Deliverance" in which the Cleric was told "I want to hear you squeal like a pig"


you'd have my sympathy






If you're feeling no love from DDO for your cleric... maybe try a Tempest Ranger




.

[karpedieme]

There is no cleric Epic Destiny in the works for this year. Only a primal one. I am just making sure that all clerics know this.

I tend to not agree with how you see there "Needs" to be a cleric destiny.

Exalted Angel is actually very cleric friendly. Endless faith adds a great amount of SP + Radiant + Positive spellpower

You get wings so no need to be FVS by default.

Renewal is a huge near Free SP heal DOT as well.

Combined with Twists of faith from Unyielding Sentinel with Endless Turning you get +3 Turn undeads (Positive Energy Bursts) and they regen 30% faster too.

My cleric runs off 8 base cha and has ship buffed 14 Turn Undead ( Positive Energy Bursts) which regen @ 30% faster so basically its a huge amount of free heals.

Pretty much with 3 Tier I twists you have a full package Cleric in Exalted Angel. 6 Fate points not a big deal either.

You want to heal DQ 1+2 Epic Elite go Sentinel and Twist in Endless Faith + renewal and you are still a total package.

Melee or caster oriented the desitnies work both ways at this time.

Feel free to see it differently but a lot of people are content with the present offering in regards to destinies.

If you want to talk about prestige classes getting to Tier III then its another topic entirely.

Clerics do desrve Radiant Servant III by now its long overdue.

Laters

[Auralana7214]

The destinies are not limited to specific classes. Whatever role the cleric player chooses to play, they can choose a destiny that compliments that role. Saying they need to put something in the game for clerics assumes that clerics DO play a certain role.

If they put in a radiant destiny that amps up healing and killing undead, some people will nerd rage that Turbines vision for clerics is "stand back and heal" - so the question becomes What qualifies as being "for clerics?"

I think most destinies qualify to be honest.

Exalted Angel - obvious choice - ramps up healing and light abilities.
Unyeilding Sentinel - survivability, moar HP, PRR etc.
Shiradi - for AA type clerics
Fury - melee battleclerics
LD - melee battleclerics
GMOF - clonks with decent wis scores.
Draconic - DCs, spell pen, and offensive arcane type AOEs
Magister - DCs, spell pen

I prob wouldnt go fatesinger or shadowdancer seriously on a cleric - but maybe someone has a reason to, who knows. The question remains: What do we consider a destiny to be that is "for clerics". If we are arguing that we cant just pin them down into a specific role, thats a tough question to answer.

This is a good question. IMO, a Cleric Destiny would have to do with healing in a big way. I don't mean to say that "Healer" is the role the Cleric who takes this should be destined for, but I would argue that Clerics can make the most powerful healers, which would make it a hallmark of the Cleric class, therefore a "Cleric" Destiny would IMO be about making healing more powerful and useful on any class. Also, turning in some way since it is fairly unique (pally's excluded) as a powerful asset to the class.

I think the point of the Destinies is not to push a toon into a certain role, but to make certain characteristics specific to that class stand out or more powerful in one way or another. Just because I am a Cleric who takes Unyielding Sentinel doesn't mean that all the sudden I will be a self-healing battle cleric. It does mean that vitality and durability is suddenly highlighted in my build.

Ask yourself, what makes a fighter, monk, or cleric a fighter, monk, or cleric and I think that is what the destinies do and should represent.

[Dolphious]

The OP is rather misleading. Fernando didn't say there wasn't going to be a cleric destiny, it's just that he only mentioned adding a destiny to the primal sphere (presumably druid-ish, but who knows). I don't think his list of upcoming features was meant to be exhaustive.

I suppose that phrasing decreases the chances that we'll see a "cleric" destiny in the near future, but it's no sure thing either way.

[Auralana7214]

double post

[darkrhavyn]

Here's my two cents...

Does there NEED to be a cleric epic destiny? Probably no more than there needs to be a specific artificer or ranger destiny....Artie's can pick in the " caster" ones, rangers get Shiradi, which always struck me more as a Druid or caster one, just with ranged thrown in cause there was no place else to put it.

The point is that clerics, artificers, and two weapon fighters feel left out of the map, at least for me. Of all the classes, only rogue, pally,ranger and bard got all three Prestige lines they were supposed to get. Clerics barbarians artis and FVS only got one. Then to add to that, clerics don't get a destiny that's really designed around us, we get in we share with FVS...a class that many feel makes clerics superfluous to begin with. Adding insult to injury...Druids get a spell that is well known in the clerics spells, but we don't get access to it. Add that to the changes to spellpower( granted they hurt FVS as bad or worse), huge increases in player hps, and people who play clerics start to get annoyed.

Do I love my cleric..yes...do I want her to get better...yes. Would I like to see clerics not treated as a healer only class...most certainly. Am I mad/ upset/ whatever word you chose, that there will be no ED for Clerics or Artificers or two weapon fighters...no, just resigned. Things are as the are, and from what I have seen over the last 6 years....the devs have an idea of how they want the game played, the way characters should be built, and no matter how much we try to convince them that clerics aren't supposed to be nanny bots....that's what they think we should be.

[Phemt81]

It will need to be uber OVER POWERED to generate the same amount of (absolutely fair) complaints on the opposite side and thus make balance in the...

force. No, not force. I meant dungeons and dragons online.

[susiedupfer]

I know many people, who, for one reason or another, have not read that letter. People ask me all the time when clerics are getting an ED. Or PrE's. Or domains. They do not read the dev trackers, and they know I do. I don't really know why they don't, but the fact is they don't. While I do agree I should have titled it something to get JUST clerics' attentions, I do not see anything agressive or calling out about it. I simply was trying to provide information.

If this had been ANY sort of in-person communication, it would have been handled much differently. I would have been able to ask nicely but directly if/when clerics were to receive their own ED, PrE's, Domains, etc. It was not in person. There is no opportunity to ask questions. I simply have the information written down to base this on.

I would absolutely love to have ANY sort of discussion to/from the devs/Mr. Piaz regarding the future of clerics. I, and many other clerics, are faced with the decision of continuing to play those toons, or TR them into something else.
A few simple sentences would placate us for a long time. "Hold on, something good is coming.", would even serve nicely.

I only get to read/post on the forums between quests/raids. Sometimes this means I only have time for 3 sentences. It was enough information given to lead people to read the letter he wrote. That was the sole purpose in posting it.

I am sorry that you were offended by my post. I do not possibly see HOW, but nevertheless, I do apologize.

EDIT* And just to let you know, sir, I am both female and from the deep south. Had you said such to me in person, every GENTLEMAN in the vicinity would have had a discussion with you...out in the parking lot.

[Pape_27]

Well, Clerics are close enough to Favored Souls that there really isn't a need for a second Divine caster destiny. They'd overlap too much.

At least with the Arcane casters, there's significant differences between them (damage vs. CC) that can be expanded upon in a Destiny.

Spoken like someone who has never played a divine class. Or an arcane.

_

[Vormaerin]

The real question is the one asked earlier about what a "real cleric" ED would be like.

It obviously wouldn't boost smiting and healing, because the two existing divine sphere EDs do exactly that.

I suppose if you just want more DCs and boosts for your offensive spells, the long trip to Magister is annoying.

EDs are about roles. They aren't about classes. A few classes (Monk, Paladin, Bard) have such unique abilities that EDs based on them are obvious. But they aren't limited to those classes. GMOF's centering requirements for Ki make it tricky to use if you aren't a monk, but everything else works for lots of classes.

So.. what do you expect to get? What role doesn't have a suitable ED currently?



Spoken like someone who has never played a divine class. Or an arcane.

_


Written like someone who doesn't have an actual argument, so just makes an ad hominem. *rolls eyes* Why don't you respond by pointing out the differences between clerics and Favored Souls and what a third divine ED ought to bring that plays to those differences?

[PNellesen]

Well, Clerics are close enough to Favored Souls that there really isn't a need for a second Divine caster destiny. They'd overlap too much.

Ok, all sarcasm aside, Exalted Angel is mildly useful for a couple of boosts to SP, undead killing, and light-based spells (all those things that require you to cast a certain number of good or healing spells in a certain amount of time are, for me, pretty much worthless), and Unyielding Sentinel gives some useful buffs, there's really nothing in the divine destinies that appear to boost Evocation, Enchantment, or Necromancy spell power/DCs. If I understand it right, if I want anything like that, I have to work part way through at least 4 other destinies to get them (from Magister and/or Draconic).

What I would like to see in another Divine Destiny (doesn't have to be a "Cleric" destiny per se) is some kind of boosts to those schools. Either that, or put a link from Exalted Angel to Draconic Incarnation so that I only need 4 levels in EA to start leveling up in Draconic. It seems Exalted Angel has MUCH more in common with the Arcane destinies than it does with the Martial anyway.

(And if there ARE boosts to Evo/Necro/Enchantment in EA, my bad for reading comprehension failure.)

[Auralana7214]

The real question is the one asked earlier about what a "real cleric" ED would be like.

It obviously wouldn't boost smiting and healing, because the two existing divine sphere EDs do exactly that.

I am confused. Where is the boost to healing in the current Epic Destinies? Did I overlook something?

[Quetzacoala]

THWACK! The sound of a heavy meaty fist of a barbarian echoed in the dark room off the face of the cleric who was bound hand and foot to a chair.

Defiantly the cleric, whose eyes lit with the fire of faith, spit out a mouthful of blood and a tooth. His grim smile filled the barbarian and his fighter companion with unease.

"Is that the best you got? Filthy, ignorant, savage." The last word dripped with contempt and loathing as it left the clerics mouth.

" You will learn your place....Healer!" sneered the fighter, his inflection on the word healer made it sound more like slave.

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again.

it seemed to go on forever. The cleric was battered and bruised to the point even his closest friends would not of known him.Still he would not break, and bow before the mundane warriors who demanded his obedience.

The above is my interpretation of what has been done to those playing the cleric since year one.

In the current state of the game, if a barbarian tried to punch a cleric, it would not be pretty; a whirling wall of blade would slice his skin into ribbons, a blazing comet would drop from the sky to smite the barbarian, and then his body would be turned inside out and would implode.

[karpedieme]

I am confused. Where is the boost to healing in the current Epic Destinies? Did I overlook something?

Excerpted rom http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=372345&highlight=epic+destinies

Destiny effects thread.

In exalted angel you contribute points to Healing power and you end up getting +30 Positive Spell power


Destinies
Tier 1 (0 points required)

Healing power (required 0 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) +10 Positive energy spellpower

so for a total of 9 points this is quite a deal maker for clerics

you get with the 9 points in tier I

+30 Positive spell Power
+30 radiant Spell power for smites
and 10% more mana from endless faith

Its quite a sweet deal for clerics no matter how you see it. Its win win.

Aslo in Tier III you have the awesome Renewal


Renewal (required 8 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP):(Active Cooldown: 3secs, 5SP) Heals 1d2 HP per character level every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. If target is below 50% health, grants celestial shield absorbing the 30 next damage.

Basically 3 ranks increase the celestial shield but the base HP regen off Renewal is a big deal.

- Comes off timer every 3 seconds

- Affected by healing amp

Hope this helps.

You can twist in some Unyielding Sentinel stuff too if you want but its tier III


Healing hands (required 8 - No prereq) (1 ranks - 2 AP): (Passive) You gain the lay on hand feat. You gain +20 positive spellpower.

Also From Shiradi if you are needing Fate Points anyways then Fey Form off of Tier II is very nice too + 15 Universal Spell power and & Cold iron DR


Fey form (required 4 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) Gain DR [3/5/7]/ Cold Iron and +[5/10/15] Spell Power."

Laters and good reading in other destinies will surely help out in your healing ventures or casting lots of nice combos indeed. :)

[Saravis]

I am confused. Where is the boost to healing in the current Epic Destinies? Did I overlook something?
Ninja'd

[Vormaerin]

If I understand it right, if I want anything like that, I have to work part way through at least 4 other destinies to get them (from Magister and/or Draconic).


Yes, that is true. The only way to boost DCs in the divine sphere is by taking more Wisdom. It would be helpful if you could move to the arcane sphere much easier. Though you'll probably want to just twist a couple arcane abilities into your divine ED or twist some divine abilities into your Magister ED. So you'll want the fate points anyway.

A divine "I just kill things with spells" ED wouldn't be a bad addition to the mix, but I don't see how that makes it a "cleric" PrC. Heh. You'd probably just get complaints about how its better for Druids or Favored Souls.

The only thing "unique" to clerics is the Turn Undead ability. And anything you gave to them in that score is going to have to compete directly with the Radiant Servant "bursts". So they'd have to be pretty darn good since that burst ability does more for healing and offense (freeing up sp) than just about any other thing in the game.

[susiedupfer]

Ok, all sarcasm aside, Exalted Angel is mildly useful for a couple of boosts to SP, undead killing, and light-based spells (all those things that require you to cast a certain number of good or healing spells in a certain amount of time are, for me, pretty much worthless), and Unyielding Sentinel gives some useful buffs, there's really nothing in the divine destinies that appear to boost Evocation, Enchantment, or Necromancy spell power/DCs. If I understand it right, if I want anything like that, I have to work part way through at least 4 other destinies to get them (from Magister and/or Draconic).

What I would like to see in another Divine Destiny (doesn't have to be a "Cleric" destiny per se) is some kind of boosts to those schools. Either that, or put a link from Exalted Angel to Draconic Incarnation so that I only need 4 levels in EA to start leveling up in Draconic. It seems Exalted Angel has MUCH more in common with the Arcane destinies than it does with the Martial anyway.

(And if there ARE boosts to Evo/Necro/Enchantment in EA, my bad for reading comprehension failure.)

This is the crux of the matter. This is the true problem. Cleric DC's lack. I would use more descriptive phrases, but hesitate due to TOS. The melee get to merrily dance through all the martial ED's without touching the divine or arcane. The divine and arcanes must travel through a martial sphere to be able to reach anything useful.

Add this to the fact that clerics have access to less toughness enhancements than FVS, and that is the second issue. And the fact that there simply are not enough fate points available to make up the difference.

Shall I continue? Or do you get the point that the list of what needs fixing on clerics is lengthy and leads to misery on our part? Because I can go on to the missing PrE's and third tier of same, spells we are missing, domains are missing, enhancements are more expensive for divines to spec out than arcanes....

[karpedieme]

This is the crux of the matter. This is the true problem. Cleric DC's lack. I would use more descriptive phrases, but hesitate due to TOS. The melee get to merrily dance through all the martial ED's without touching the divine or arcane. The divine and arcanes must travel through a martial sphere to be able to reach anything useful.

Add this to the fact that clerics have access to less toughness enhancements than FVS, and that is the second issue. And the fact that there simply are not enough fate points available to make up the difference.

Shall I continue? Or do you get the point that the list of what needs fixing on clerics is lengthy and leads to misery on our part? Because I can go on to the missing PrE's and third tier of same, spells we are missing, domains are missing, enhancements are more expensive for divines to spec out than arcanes....

Fate points and the "apparent" according lack of to you will never make up the difference between Cleric not having Class Toughness.... Dont know how you manage to see this really?

FVS toughness will grant Max 30 Hp if you build it right. If you have more than that you have a gimp pretty much who wasted 4 AP for 10 HP :) Toughness feat is available to a cleric still and allows for racial toughness too in enhancements.

There are a ton of fate points you need to go grind them so stop whinning about it. If you want to claim there are not enough fate points add to you argument.

In regards to cleric DC's... what do you expect? you can have the same DC's as a favored soul... You want Wiz dc's now? The spell Pen too?

In most cases the cleric dc's will scale in proportion to much needed spell pen and this comes with past lives or Tier III destinies. You could have 50 necro dc on your cleric but you would blue shield a ton on Epic Hards pretty much.

A line has been drawn..... FVS and clerics each have their balances to each other. radiant servant + turn undead makes up for lack of SP if built right.

If you want to talk about Cleric having higher dc's then its 3 Sorc Past Lives for your blade barrier and 1 Wizard past life for necro and BB dc's.... Plain and simple. :)

Clerics have all to gain from simple twists that DO NOT require more Fate points than those available.

Simple example of twists here to benefit your dc's

----If you want Necro +3 dc's (need a feat spent)

Tier II Magister 3 fate points

----If you want Evocation +2 dc's for BB (need a feat spent)

Tier II Draconic 5 Fate points

----- More turn Undeads for Radiant servant +3 turn undeads + 30% faster regen.

Tier I Unyielding Sentinel 3 Fate points

This bring a total of 11 Fate points for a very welll rounded cleric build for good DC on blade Barrier, Necromancy and contributes to you prestige class.

If you cannot see this then your expectations of what a cleric could be a little off and require maybe you to roll a wizard :-)

Sure you will have to grind outside of your spehere a bit, no big deal just gather parties in accordance and get it done. Its a time and investment to make your build proper not a magic easy button :) or lack of Fate points....

A cleric in its own right is a very powerful class still..... The game has evolved but the raw healing spell power combined with well spent fate points will make for a great combination and successful build.

Lack of fate points Pish posh..... All the goodies for dc's are on the low tiers anyways

Good luck and please read into the sarcasm.... Nothing against you personally. Its all there for you to make maybe you are just not seeing it :)

Laters

[Vormaerin]

This is the crux of the matter. This is the true problem. Cleric DC's lack.

Add this to the fact that clerics have access to less toughness enhancements than FVS, and that is the second issue.

While I don't like the ED scheme being a Y shape in effect, the distance between arcane and divine spheres is not crippling. You'll need the Fate points anyway.

Not to mention "being able to dance through all the martial EDs" is kind of useless. GMOF, SD, and LD are for very, very different builds. GMOF is more valuable to a typical cleric (especially Clonks, of course) than most melees.

A barb or fighter will be looking at Unyielding Sentinel (divine), Legendary Dreadnought (martial), and Fury of the Wild (Primal) for most its abilities. He has to go through GMOF 4 (not much use if you aren't centered) and Shiradi Champion 3 (ranged only) the other way.

It is easier than going through GMOF 3 to SD 4 to Fatesinger 3 by a bit. But its hardly world shakingly bad.

And if you can't find something to do with 6 AP that is competitive with 30hp at the kind of HP totals folks have these days, you aren't looking very hard.

[Vormaerin]

This bring a total of 11 Fate points for a very welll rounded cleric build for good DC on blade Barrier, Necromancy and contributes to you prestige class.[/b][/u]

Laters

While I think your general point is correct, I don't think your math is. The 2nd and 3rd Twist slots cost more than the first one.

[tasebro]

...The only thing "unique" to clerics is the Turn Undead ability....

Not true statement. Paladins *also* have the Turn Undead ability, Radiants merely get a nominal boost to that same ability.

There remains *only one* thing unique left to clerics now: Radiant Prestige class; and to get the two tiers of that, clerics have to trade full BAB progression, and give up all other class specials that otherwise might be available.

Bottom line is that radiant prestige class *is* de facto the "cleric class" now, as it provides 1. positive burst, and 2, a minor DC boost to positive conjure spells, and 3. a moderate boost to cure/heal output (termed "HPS" for Hitpoints per Second).

Note carefully that every single one of those special "radiant" aspects got nerfed in MOTU, in addition to divine offense spell output (DPS) getting nerfed by 50%, nerfdate 14 also saw Heighten getting nerfed, meaning (among other things) that Undead now autosave for "half damage" vs divine cures-- but that is "half" of the already 50% nerfed output, yeilding a meager *one-quarter* damage in that particular situation. This was done to specifically to accommodate broken MOTU content, meaning epic character levels 21-25; not any other reason. Pile all the cr@p random loot gen gear on that you want, its still just a backhanded denial of full access to contribute to quest completion. Simple as that.

Sorry guys, but no matter how you slice it, the first two tiers of a nominal "prestige class" do not a "viable" (nor "interesting") character class make. That sort of scabbed-on work around simply does not bring enough meat to the table anymore, and never will again. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle now.

It was a horrible mistake -- an outright *error* in judgement -- for the devs to arbitrarily nerf divine caster output by 50%, combine that with nerfing Heighten, combined with nerfing WF Healers friend, and heal amp (to a lesser extent) and you have a real *mess*.

The only question left now is: "what are they going to nerf next?"

Stick around and find out.


This is the crux of the matter. This is the true problem. ...Shall I continue? Or do you get the point that the list of what needs fixing on clerics is lengthy and leads to misery on our part? ....

The writing on the wall is clear enough. Does not take a rocket scientist to figure out this particular zero-sum game is rigged.

[karpedieme]

While I think your general point is correct, I don't think your math is. The 2nd and 3rd Twist slots cost more than the first one.

The 2nd and 3rd twists do cost more on a progressive scale.... You put the highgher tier twists early on to save fate points in 2nd and 3rd.... The higher the tier value the better you are to put it in twist slot one it cost way less.

Twist I with a Tier II cost 3 fate points (Upgraded to tier II)

Twist II with a Tier II cost 5 fate points (Upgraded to tier II)

Twist III with a tier I cost 3 Fate points (Upgraded to tier I)

Cost 11 Fate points to have slots unlocked. Math is correct.

Dont mean to argue have some of my guys slotted as is and its what it cost.

Quoted from DDO WIKI

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies



Just unlocked: tier 1
◦ Upgrade 1: tier 1 or 2
◦ Upgrade 2: tier 1, 2 or 3
◦ Upgrade 3: tier 1, 2, 3 or 4

First Twist: 1 Fate Point
◦ Upgrade 1: 2 Fate Points
◦ Upgrade 2: 3 Fate Points
◦ Upgrade 3: 4 Fate Points

◦ Second Twist: 2 Fate Point
◦ Upgrade 1: 3 Fate Points
◦ Upgrade 2: 4 Fate Points
◦ Upgrade 3: 5 Fate Points

◦ Third Twist: 3 Fate Point
◦ Upgrade 1: 4 Fate Points
◦ Upgrade 2: 5 Fate Points
◦ Upgrade 3: 6 Fate Points

[karpedieme]

It was a horrible mistake -- an outright *error* in judgement -- for the devs to arbitrarily nerf divine caster output by 50%, combine that with nerfing Heighten, combined with nerfing WF Healers friend, and heal amp (to a lesser extent) and you have a real *mess*.

The only question left now is: "what are they going to nerf next?"

Stick around and find out.



The writing on the wall is clear enough. Does not take a rocket scientist to figure out this particular zero-sum game is rigged.

After the supposed 50% nerf mess Madfloyd did have a very detailed explanation on how it works out

There were some reduction in cases but should be addressed once the enhancements come around in the fall.

WF healers friend was bugged,now it is fixed and cost less AP BTW :)

Madfloyd is a dev so its not pulled out of my hat guesswork.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383374


Hey everyone,

We wanted provide clarifications on some of the confusion surrounding Spell Power, and to address the perception that healing has decreased in effectiveness.

The only two healing spells which have a non-standard interaction with Spell Power are Heal and Mass Heal. They each receive 50% of your spell power total. This number was chosen to ensure that, cast by a level 11-20 character with level appropriate equipment, the performance of Heal and Mass Heal remains approximately equal to its performance before the expansion pack, erring on the side of a small buff to effectiveness for characters whom are diligent in upgrading equipment as they level.

Before the expansion pack, items had Spell Damage Amplification. This was a percentage of a spell’s base damage that added together with your enhancements, and was then multiplied by the metamagics you were using with the spell. This meant that metamagics, such as Empower and Maximize, were a very significant portion of your spell damage and healing. Activating Maximize doubled the damage or healing of your spells, including the bonuses from your spell damage amplification.

This old Spell Damage Amplification system had difficulty scaling into higher level content. Because of the way it multiplied with metamagics, even a small increase to the available damage amplification could result in a large increase to your total spell damage/healing. While this doesn’t sound bad, it made for problems in balancing increased Spell Damage Amplification from multiple sources, such as items, enhancements, and the Epic Destinies which we released with Menace of the Underdark. Had we kept the old system, we would have had to provide extremely minimal or no increases in the available Spell Damage Amplification from those sources.

The way that portions of the old system worked were also not easily transparent to the player, and was subject to odd rules, such as items only working to boost spells below a certain level. We determined that it would improve gameplay for spellcasters if we simplified it so that all your bonuses to spell damage added together directly, and worked on spells of any level. This allows us to provide linear benefits to the power of your spells, from multiple sources, and have them stack in an easily identifiable way.

Now with Menace of the Underdark, we have replaced Spell Damage Amplification with Spell Power.
Every point of Spell Power adds 1% to the base damage or healing of a spell. Your enhancements and metamagics now function just like Spell Power, and it is all added together. One of our goals was to keep player spell damage and healing equal to, or better than, their current effectiveness. Because metamagics were no longer multiplying on top of the bonuses from spell amplification, we needed to make up for that somewhere else: we chose to increase the amount of power your items provide to your spells, and double the value of your spell damage enhancements.

For example, if you have 100 Healing Spell Power on a scepter, 100 Healing Spell Power from class enhancements, and Empower Healing active (+75 Healing Spell Power), you can expect your cure spells to provide 275% extra healing, for a total of 375% of their base effect.

To summarize, the results of these changes are:
1. Metamagics are a smaller portion of your spell power total than they used to be.
2. To make up for it, we dramatically increased the casting benefits from equipment and enhancements.

For most players, this is a buff, as it provides the option to turn off your metamagics and conserve Spell Points, while still dealing capable damage.

The spellcasting effectiveness of low to mid level characters was greatly increased as a result of these changes, while at mid to high levels, when many advanced players tended to use metamagics, their damage varies between being approximately the same to having been slightly increased.

However, we felt some spells and abilities would be unbalanced if they received the full amount of Spell Power, so we made some exceptions, in order to maintain the current balance of the below listed spells:

The following spells currently receive reduced benefit from Spell Power:
• The Heal spell: 50%
• The Mass Heal spell: 50%
• Necrotic Touch (Pale Master): 50%
• Necrotic Bolt (Pale Master): 50%
• Necrotic Blast (Pale Master): 50%
• Arcane Bolt (Archmage): 50%
• Arcane Blast (Archmage): 50%
• Summon Archon (Favored Soul): 50%
• All Runearm Shots: Between 50% and 80%

Why these spells?
These spells are not affected either by Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or both, and never have been.

We set the percentages of your Spell Power for the above spells to ensure that a character, upon the release of the expansion pack, at the same level and with equipment appropriate to their level, would see similar results with those spells.

If they did not receive reduced benefit from Spell Power, those spells would have been too powerful, since Spell Power amounts on items and enhancements now eclipse the old Spell Damage Amplification bonuses.

In other words- Metamagics were not as big of a factor in making those spells good. These spells would have gained the benefits of buffing spellpower on equipment and enhancements, but would NOT have had to worry about the decreased importance of metamagics: resulting in a huge buff to these spells.
Note that those spells still get full benefit from the metamagics that can be applied to them- Empower Healing when used with the Heal spell still provides the equivalent of 75 Spell Power, for example.

Why not just let them get buffed?
Answer: For the most part, they didn’t need it.

We are always watching the performance of groups in content, and will make further changes if needed.

For most players, Heal and Mass Heal are functioning approximately the same as they did before the expansion pack, and characters who use level appropriate gear have also seen small increases in the power of those spells. That small increase would have been a large one if we had done nothing, and we made the decision to maintain the current balance of the Heal and Mass Heal spells.

If we observe that Heal and Mass Heal are not performing sufficiently in Menace of the Underdark, we’ll address that.

Going forward, if we alter the Spell Power coefficient of a specific spell, we intend to update the tooltip to reflect either “This spell receives reduced benefit from Spell Power” or “This spell receives increased benefit from Spell Power”. This will allow us more control to boost “weaker” spells as needed without over-boosting already powerful ones.

As a long-term goal, we also hope to be able to improve the player’s Character Sheet to show Spell Power for each spell damage/healing type, as well as to show other statistics that currently do not appear on it, such as increased or decreased threat, healing amplification, and others.

What do I need to do to make sure my spells are as good as possible?
While “Potency” items which have Universal Spell Power (which boosts all spells) are useful to make sure your spells are strong, they generally provide two thirds the amount of bonus that an item of the same level which boosts one type of Spell Power does.
So, for example, if you want your Healing spells to be as strong as possible, use a “Devotion” item of as high of a level as you can.


TLDR Version: (Quick Summary)
• Some spells gain reduced benefit from Spell Power.
• This is because they are not affected by one or more metamagics.
• This keeps them approximately the same or a little better than they were before the expansion.
• This maintains the preexisting balance between those spells and other spells.
• If you want your spells to be as strong as possible, use an item that boosts that specific type of Spell Power.

[DarkForte]

After the supposed 50% nerf mess Madfloyd did have a very detailed explanation on how it works out

There were some reduction in cases but should be addressed once the enhancements come around in the fall.

WF healers friend was bugged,now it is fixed and cost less AP BTW :)

Madfloyd is a dev so its not pulled out of my hat guesswork.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383374

I've done the math on this on the link in my sig: no matter how MadFloyd puts it, heal has received a nerf.

However, to the exception of those spells, divine casting in general (aka DP/BB/CF) seems to be affected normally by spell power (I did a few amplitude tests on DP, results corresponded to 100% spell power effect of equipment/enhancements), so I have no idea what Tasebro's talking about there.

Also, WF healer's friend bug came out at the same time as the spell power to scrolls bug. Arguably, until they 'fixed' that, healing groups was easier than ever just with heal scrolls.

[countfitz]

there's really nothing in the divine destinies that appear to boost Evocation, Enchantment, or Necromancy spell power/DCs. If I understand it right, if I want anything like that, I have to work part way through at least 4 other destinies to get them (from Magister and/or Draconic).


I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks the current dev team that brought us "healers stand back and heal, we've added punative mechanics if you don't," is gonna give us a dc based casting focused cleric destiny... you are so wrong. It would be heal, heal, and more heal... maybe a raise/turn/protection/buff one. Which is why I don't care for them to make it. It's the pessimist in me.

[susiedupfer]

Folks, I can read the ED's. I know exactly how far the Draconic and Magister ED's are from EA. I know exactly what is offered everywhere. I have done the math. I have used the Epic Destiny planner in every possible combination of ED's and twists possible to achieve what I consider a viable use of ED's for a cleric. There are simply not enough fate points available to bring a cleric out of the healbot model we are being forced into. That is the problem. No true divine caster or melee options available to us that can't be MUCH better achieved by being a different class entirely.

People who play clerics know exactly what I am talking about. People who don't never will.

This is very sad for clerics. I, too, am losing hope that this is ever going to change.

[smatt]

The issue I see is that many people play offensive casting clerics in place of, rather than in addition to, taking care of their party members HP bars.

It really isnt too tough to do both. If Im on a divine caster and I lay down a blade barrier, chances are I have the aggro or the mob is dead. Healing for the party needed = not much. If I greater command most of the mobs to the floor and the melee are beating on them, healing needed = not much. When it IS NEEDED, I do USE IT however - as do any divine caster who plays 100% of their class.

In short, an offensive casting divine is not so much a reactionary repair tool but more of a proactive mitigation device. A successful greater command or cometfall uses less mana than waiting for the melee to engage and then healing their red bars up in a reactionary fashion.

Im fine with both offensive casters or battle clerics (in fact I encourage them), but a divine who absolutely refuses to drop a heal on someone whose red bar is going south is playing 50% of their class. They are playing offensively in place of, rather than in conjunction with, their healing abilities. Those are the only "clerics" who deserve to be in that chair, heh.

Oh Chai..... How dare you actually post something I agree with 100%.... :mad:

OK, I'm off to find a hammer to hit myself in the forehead with :D

[oweieie]

That is the problem. No true divine caster or melee options available to us that can't be MUCH better achieved by being a different class entirely.

You're complaining that one of the strongest classes, who is bad at melee and good at casting and great at healing can't be great at melee as well? Seriously? Get a clue.

[Kiel]

Ive played a cleric for quite some time now.With my mana free regenerating auras and the addition of destinies i rarely have to concentrate on anyone other than the main tank.I did however have quite the grind to get the twists i wanted.If by slim chance i pull agro... no worries (tank aside) i more than likely can take more of a beating than anyone else in the group.Even with a fairly low spell point pool i have never run out of mana but then again your better clerics ALWAYS keep heal scrolls etc for just the slim chance the whole party bruises easily.

I can still solo most quests on hard without having to spend a single spell point on healing myself ya i kill slow but i like to think of it as slow but steady.

My only concern are the higher hit point players ie barbarians with zero heal amp(yep run into quite a few).If you want to do us clerics a favor fix the warforged heal amp.

[samthedagger]

Exalted Angel is already a powerful destiny for clerics and favored souls alike. I think perhaps you have yet to realize the awesome potential it has in the hands of a cleric.

[HAL]

The destinies are not limited to specific classes.

The big problem with this POV is that the EDs are named for specific classes. I agree with you that no character should feel that they have to take an ED just because they are that class. But if Turbine didn't intend the EDs to be associated with specific classes then they should have named them differently.

In addition, I agree with those who say that while certain existing EDs do address certain aspects of Clerics, they don't address other aspects. There seem to be EDs that address all aspects of some of the classes. But there are holes to be filled for some classes.

[Vormaerin]

The big problem with this POV is that the EDs are named for specific classes. I agree with you that no character should feel that they have to take an ED just because they are that class. But if Turbine didn't intend the EDs to be associated with specific classes then they should have named them differently.

In addition, I agree with those who say that while certain existing EDs do address certain aspects of Clerics, they don't address other aspects. There seem to be EDs that address all aspects of some of the classes. But there are holes to be filled for some classes.

This is the wrong way to look at it. Epic destinies are intended to be a form of multiclassing. You can do the equivalent of "going pure" and playing your bard as a fatesinger. But you don't have to. Frankly, Shadowdancer and GMoF are the only EDs that aren't likely to benefit common bard builds very much. THough I wouldn't be surprised if someone pointed out good ways to use those.

There's a monk/wizard build that uses Legendary Dreadnaught. A number of arcanes use Shiradi.

[Vormaerin]

People who play clerics know exactly what I am talking about. People who don't never will.


This kind of statement is just an announcement that you don't have a valid argument. If you can't actually demonstrate your point and can only appeal to supposed secret insider knowledge, you fail.

Not to mention the statement is demonstrably untrue since there are cleric players posting who don't agree with you.

[Ranncore]

Exalted Angel is already a powerful destiny for clerics and favored souls alike. I think perhaps you have yet to realize the awesome potential it has in the hands of a cleric.

The Exalted Angel epic moment is terrible for a cleric, and the counter is bugged anyways.

100 heal or light based spells, and my turns don't count? That might as well be a menmonic enhancer countdown.

[Yan_PL]

I was thinking just that, it's true that so far only TWF build lack a proper destiny so it makes sense that they add one for them.

um... have you considered TWF build with Fury of the wild, occasionally switching to THF weapon to use adrenaline/epic moment? Fury of the wild supposedly adds 1 damage per level, and this damage is added to both mainhand and offhand... as well as tunnel vision adds nice procs that work well for TWF... just saying. Fury doesn't require you to have THF feats or to play strictly THF, and TWF character make melee vorpal hits twice as often as THF ones.

[Chai]

Not true statement. Paladins *also* have the Turn Undead ability, Radiants merely get a nominal boost to that same ability.

There remains *only one* thing unique left to clerics now: Radiant Prestige class; and to get the two tiers of that, clerics have to trade full BAB progression, and give up all other class specials that otherwise might be available.

Bottom line is that radiant prestige class *is* de facto the "cleric class" now, as it provides 1. positive burst, and 2, a minor DC boost to positive conjure spells, and 3. a moderate boost to cure/heal output (termed "HPS" for Hitpoints per Second).

Note carefully that every single one of those special "radiant" aspects got nerfed in MOTU, in addition to divine offense spell output (DPS) getting nerfed by 50%, nerfdate 14 also saw Heighten getting nerfed, meaning (among other things) that Undead now autosave for "half damage" vs divine cures-- but that is "half" of the already 50% nerfed output, yeilding a meager *one-quarter* damage in that particular situation. This was done to specifically to accommodate broken MOTU content, meaning epic character levels 21-25; not any other reason. Pile all the cr@p random loot gen gear on that you want, its still just a backhanded denial of full access to contribute to quest completion. Simple as that.

Sorry guys, but no matter how you slice it, the first two tiers of a nominal "prestige class" do not a "viable" (nor "interesting") character class make. That sort of scabbed-on work around simply does not bring enough meat to the table anymore, and never will again. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle now.

It was a horrible mistake -- an outright *error* in judgement -- for the devs to arbitrarily nerf divine caster output by 50%, combine that with nerfing Heighten, combined with nerfing WF Healers friend, and heal amp (to a lesser extent) and you have a real *mess*.

The only question left now is: "what are they going to nerf next?"

Stick around and find out.

The writing on the wall is clear enough. Does not take a rocket scientist to figure out this particular zero-sum game is rigged.

All the nerf talk is overblown. It only takes into account the 50% spell power adjustment but completely ignores that we were using 50% potency items before the update and 120% devotion/radiance/impact items after the update, a 70+ percentage difference.

Divine are still as powerful as ever and have the most EE solo completions in the accomplishment forum.

Dont believe the hype. There is no DoO0o0Oo0mmMM!!!1 - clerics and fvs are just as fun to play as they ever were, and just as potent as well.

[Chai]

The big problem with this POV is that the EDs are named for specific classes. I agree with you that no character should feel that they have to take an ED just because they are that class. But if Turbine didn't intend the EDs to be associated with specific classes then they should have named them differently.

In addition, I agree with those who say that while certain existing EDs do address certain aspects of Clerics, they don't address other aspects. There seem to be EDs that address all aspects of some of the classes. But there are holes to be filled for some classes.

This is a good thing, not a bad thing. People need to choose rather than just expect one destiny to have everything a cleric can possibly do in it.

Other classes are easy to build destinies for when the classes dont do a whole lot. Fighters and barbs are DPS, but they arent group healers or instakill DC seekers. A cleric can do all of these, so they cant really make one destiny that covers this wide territory. Instead, the cleric has to choose depending on the build.

[Vormaerin]

Not true statement. Paladins *also* have the Turn Undead ability, Radiants merely get a nominal boost to that same ability.



Fine, I was imprecise. I thought it would be obvious I was talking about divine caster classes (cleric, druid, favored soul) since we were talking about what a supposedly cleric ED would look like compared to one that suited FVS or Drd as much or more.

The lack of diversity in Divine PrEs is an entirely different issue.

An ED that is about boosting DCs and direct damage spells for divines is not going to be a "Cleric" ED. We'll just have people making the same whines they do about how it favors FVS because they have more spell points. :rolleyes:

Btw, there was a point in time when the Turn abilities were useful (DV, DC, DH). But they became obsolete as power grew and were completely destroyed by Radiant Servant.

[tasebro]

All the nerf talk is overblown. It only takes into account the 50% spell power adjustment but completely ignores that we were using 50% potency items before the update and 120% devotion/radiance/impact items after the update, a 70+ percentage difference.

Divine are still as powerful as ever and have the most EE solo completions in the accomplishment forum.

Dont believe the hype. There is no DoO0o0Oo0mmMM!!!1 - clerics and fvs are just as fun to play as they ever were, and just as potent as well.

I agree with the "point of view" of PuppetMaster, all the divine *hirelings* I have used since the update are still as powerful as ever...

Its not a nerf, its a buff!

/sarc off
.
.
.

In spite of rampant examples of normalcy bias, the fact remains that divine caster output *was* nerfed 50% in MOTU/U14. This was an arbitrary nerf made to expressly accommodate broken MOTU content, specifically level 21-25 content. No other reason.
Furthermore, the fact remains that the *only* remaining class feature *unique* to clerics is two tiers of radiant servant prestige class--which BTW comes at *very significant* opportunity cost; two tiers of a prestige class does not a viable, nor interesting class make, it simply does not bring enough meat to the table anymore, you can pile any amount of cr@p random loot gen gear on that you like, and it will never ever fix that inconvenient little fact.


... there was a point in time when the Turn abilities were useful (DV, DC, DH). But they became obsolete as power grew and were completely destroyed by Radiant Servant.
IMHO, radiant servant as implemented was functionally dang near perfect at the time it was released; they should have kept burst at level 12, and aura at level 6 tho--even if that was a bit anticonformist to PnP, it just worked. I can see why they switched them to pacify calls for nerfs.
Power creep *has* caused many issues. The fact that warforged Healers' Freind, *and* divine caster output both got hit with a 50% nerf is proof of that.

The way forward is one of either: 1. creative design solutions; or 2. more nerfs.

The latter is the far, far more likely default, than the former...

[karpedieme]

Power creep *has* caused many issues. The fact that warforged Healers' Freind, *and* divine caster output both got hit with a 50% nerf is proof of that.

The way forward is one of either: 1. creative design solutions; or 2. more nerfs.

The latter is the far, far more likely default, than the former...

About the WF healer's friend and 50% nerf to divines, its about time you drop them from your argument.

What is this fact you speak about exactly. Same for divine spell power there was a decrease but not even close to 50%

Darkforte took quite a bit of time to breakdown numbers and its clearly not as you hypothetically speak of 50%.... Not even close your Doom has you completely blind.

This is all still the closed beta doom theory that got blown out of the water once the math forumties broke it all down.... There was a decrease more like it not exactly a total nerf...

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4620835&postcount=83

Compare to notes in Madfloyds detailed thread and i ask thee where you see -50%

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383374

WH healers friend was bugged and now it is fixed..... It also cost less AP than before :-) broken record mate. Actually near 50% less ap it cost now than before too.... :)

It is working as intended now since U15 and was reported many times broken previously since u14.

You are making yourself sound less and less reasonable.

Your 50% argument is looking more like 50% of a joke now :)

I suggest coming to the table with concrete facts not hypothetical guesses like you have shown in your rebutals.

Have a good day sir.

[Karavek]

So you're saying in DDO... the quests were designed that a Cleric was not needed for "group healing" just their offensive prowess???







and not sure actually what the Barbarian said is suppose to mean?

" There is no place in this world for men who see far and right wrongs. No place for men like....YOU!" Roared the barbarian as he struck the cleric again and again."




but you do realize... INT & WIS are dump stats for Barbarians... so I'm positive no true Barbarian would utter such a thing... then again maybe it wasn't meant to mean anything, just a Barbarian trying to make himself sound smart???




As for your vision of Cleric treatment... if you depicted a scene from "Deliverance" in which the Cleric was told "I want to hear you squeal like a pig"


you'd have my sympathy






If you're feeling no love from DDO for your cleric... maybe try a Tempest Ranger




.

actually when the nerf two TWF and tempest hit I was playing one regularly;)

[Karavek]

double post

There is no try! Only do or do not.

[2x4]

There is no cleric Epic Destiny in the works for this year. Only a primal one. I am just making sure that all clerics know this.

Take a look at Exalted Angel and Shiradi. Both are very nice for divine casters. My current main is divine caster (Not FvS or Cleric). shiradi was very nice I got it to level 5 and took every wis stat boost.

Don't forget that cleric is a divine caster just one of many.

[Karavek]

In the current state of the game, if a barbarian tried to punch a cleric, it would not be pretty; a whirling wall of blade would slice his skin into ribbons, a blazing comet would drop from the sky to smite the barbarian, and then his body would be turned inside out and would implode.

if we had open world pvp then yes just as in pnp we who play divines here would have no one bold enough to speak ill to our faces.

[Gara]

Clerics are already very powerful. They don't need domains or more loot love. Turbine needs clerics to be clerics and heal parties. Give them too many toys and you'll never see them again because they'll be off playing with themselves exclusively.

OK, I'm exaggerating. But you get the point, other classes need buffing WAY more than clerics.

Wow is that a joke post? Have you even played a cleric before? What toys have we even received the past few updates that weren't tailored to a FVS?

I barely even see Clerics anymore. Do you really think the reason most pure healers roll a FVS instead of a Cleric is because they are so darn balanced and have so much available that they aren't fun?

Let me guess your main is some obscure melee build and the devs just aren't loving you anymore.

[sebastianosmith]

"According to Fernando Piaz..."

I must say (and likely more than once given the current forum posting issues) that this phrase should become a new meme. Allow me to begin...

http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OFBF0vkr8Wc/UEpdX2SEpHI/AAAAAAAAALQ/f73DKBevF-g/s800/According%2520to%2520Fernando%2520Piaz.jpg