PUG leader confusion

[Llewndyn]

Not a drama thread, just a clarification. So, everyone on forums and in all reality in game goes on and on about how you need to know each quest in and out and forwards and backwards without help or you are a gimp noob who smells of mayonnaise and failure, right? But then there are a few threads (good ones) with great leaders in PUGs. I don't understand.

If you hate hand-holding and know the quest and what to do why do you get annoyed when the group leader assumes you know what you are doing and let's you have at it? A few examples...

A guildy of mine recently was running some Vale quests, and was kind of verbally directing people on where traps were, which way to go, etc. Someone told said guildy to shut up and then things devolved from there (won't go into details). I have seen this happen numerous times, and always secretly enjoy when they tell the leader to shut up then die later in a similar trap and ragequit, but that's another story.... this is a more common issue.

I do not lead groups often, as I don't care to teach. When I do lead a PUG, there really is no leader, because I put "Please know it" or "Not a training run" or "BYOH" or "IP" into the LFM, so when you join a group I am leading I automatically assume you can take care of yourself, or if not are able to follow along and learn as you go. This is how I learned, and the argument can be made that all us "froob" (where did that term go? I miss it) players from September 2009 learned in that same way, as the veterans from those days still hated us with unbridled passion and gentle touches behind the wayward lobster. Anyway, my point is when you join my groups, unless I explicitly say so, you are kind of on your own. I don't mind staying together and working together, and actually prefer that, but I have recently been getting informed that I am a terrible leader and lack communication skills and shouldn't put up the star unless I am willing to lead.

What is the line then? Which one is right? As most of you are capped and TRed and have run stuff a million times, do you still want to be told where each trap is and what every pitfall is and what every NPC says? How is that not handholding? To be fair, a LOT of my PUGs go off without a hitch, and while there is ample communication, none of it is game related and usually devolves into potty humor and other things that for the sake of decency I will not bring up here, but I assumed the gaming public at large appreciated my lack of communication, rather than shunned it. How much do you put the blame on the leader of a PUG when it fails (for the record, the one in question did NOT fail, the person who spawned this died and was mad about that)? To me, when someone puts up an LFM it says "I would like to run this quest. Would you? If so click the join button", not "I would like to take all blame and responsibility and teach you and everyone else how to do this quest and really make it a guided tour. Don't bother bringing pots, or trying to keep yourself alive, just join the group and hit the R button and I will take care of the rest", is that an incorrect way of thinking?

Feel free to weigh in, I guess I just don't get it. /semi-rant off

[gallantian]

I don't see any problems with the way you post groups. I say "post groups" because I never equated the person posting with being the leader. I have no problem with it one way or the other, but never assume it will be such a way. Some pugs are in need of direction and some are not, generally, someone will step up if needed and that is not always the star, nor should it have to be.

A phrase tossed around here from time to time is "it's not my job to teach you the quest" and that is true. If you don't know the run, the owness is on the individual to speak up and tell the group that he/she is not familiar with xyz. In my experience, this is not generally treated with derision but the other puggers will help out and appreciated the person letting them know they are in unfamiliar territory.

Each group has it's own dynamic and lately I have found myself running in many pugs as if I were soloing, sometimes that is the only way to be content.

[arkonas]

I find it funny how ignorant people are in this game. I can do any type of behavior if i want. Teaching, zerging, solo. i noticed the 2nd day motu went live on argo. Some lfms were "know it" Really? Really? 2nd day the pack is out and your expected to know it.

Ok then you have your group up and your trying to learn it ops and all. secret doors traps chests etc. Then some fool is off doing their own thing ruining your learning run. Sure you could of done solo, but some just like company of others. I like to learn the quests. There are others who like to learn it with groups. So why ruin that experience for them?

On our Argo some of the veterans get off on taking over another party and ruining it for others. whether their new or their flower sniffers. they don't even have to zerg to ruin it. just their attitudes are enough to do it. You also need to remember whether you started in 06 or 10' you were new at one point.

I normally tend to solo quests when they come out to learn them and show some of my friends later. they aren't solo type people. they enjoying grouping talking smack etc. just having fun. Once they learn the quests then we tend to adopt behaviors for the quest. if we know it can be done quickly then why not.

[squishwizzy]

Coming off my self-imposed posting ban for this.

I ran with you on the Eyes of Stone series over the weekend. As far as a party leader goes, you're fine.

Granted we had some confusion with the first quest (I and a couple of other came in late), and there was a misunderstanding on Frame Work, but trust me when I say I've been in much worse PuGs in the past.

If there is any suggestions that I might make, it's that there needed to be a little more clarity at the start of the quest as to how we were going to do the quest. Frame Work ended up being a mess the first run because we tried zerging it, and I don't think everyone was on board with that. I know that the dozen-or-so times that I've run that quest, it was always a hack-and-slash slogfest - no one ever tried to just blow past all of the mobs, at least not without stealth. Aside from that, I don't think there was anything wrong with the way you ran the quests, or with the expectations you placed on the group. Had that technique, in fact, worked I would probably have used it for other runs. it is always good to learn something new in the game.

The only other criticism is that I would have liked an extra chest or two as I'm a conspicuous loot-*****, and it is my nature to be overtly greedy. :P

I'd run with you again.

[MaxwellEdison]

You're good enough. You're smart enough. And godh darn it, people like you.

[Therigar]

I do not lead groups often, as I don't care to teach. When I do lead a PUG, there really is no leader, because I put "Please know it" or "Not a training run" or "BYOH" or "IP" into the LFM, so when you join a group I am leading I automatically assume you can take care of yourself, or if not are able to follow along and learn as you go.

Why should anyone care?

What you assume is your business. How you handle groups you form is your business. Being smug about your superiority because you (or a guild mate) is narrating a quest only to be asked to stay quiet doesn't say anything positive about either you or your guild mate.

Your initial premise is full of fail. Nobody says stuff about mayonnaise (except to note whether they prefer it to Miracle Whip). Group leaders often do not know quests. Neither do they want someone else to tell them how to succeed in the quest.

As surprising as it may be to you, not everyone needs or wants the solution before they attempt the problem. For a great many people there is tremendous enjoyment in just figuring the quest out.

So, exactly how is it NOT a drama thread since you seem intent on telling us all how things ought to be? Seems to me that this is the very definition of a drama thread, unless we want to call it by its other name.

Then again, you didn't mention bridges or fishing.... :rolleyes:

[TrinityTurtle]

The real answer is...there is no line. There are thousands of players. I have no idea how many thousands, but its a great big lot of people. And in any great big lot of people, you have a great big lot of differeing personalities. I know the quests. I know where the traps are, what monsters are coming, etc. etc. However, I don't resent someone looking out for the group either and take it in stride as long as he is not personally micromanaging me to the point of homicidal intent. A heads up trap coming vs. "You have to stand 2 mm from the wall and move your toon forward at a rate of 1/2 and inch per minute or I will flip out". Even then, that is MY personal line. And it's highly subjective. The personality of the other people in the group have a huge impact on how I take their questing orders/requests/random information.

I have no problem teaching quests to new players if they ask or seem to be strugging, and have done so more often than I can count. And most of those new players have friended me and send me a nice greeting when I log in. Freinds are never bad. And becase of that tendency I rarely have trouble finding people to quest with. :) But I also try not to force anything down their throats and if they don't like my advice it's up to them to figure out the way to do whatever they want to achieve, no harm no foul. : )

But there is no one way to handle all groups. Because each group is made up of real people behind their monitors, all who have diffrerent expectations, personalities, and in a lot of cases cultures. And there is room in the same game for both the byoh and the hand holders.

[Raithe]

...do you still want to be told where each trap is and what every pitfall is and what every NPC says?

No. And I mean NO.

I don't care what type of run it is... flower sniffing, strategic, zerg, grind, roleplaying, loot run, exploration, or griefing (ok, well maybe griefing), you don't spoil other people's fun by showing them how well you already know the content.

If you are the rogue and can spot a trap, mention it. Not much you can do otherwise anyway and most content contains instant-dependent trap spawns. If someone asks a question, answer it if you know the answer. Other than that, you don't need to micromanage other people's gameplay. Micromanagement of party member's gameplay (through speech or simply zerging the quest for them) is probably the number one reason that this game fails to keep a new subscriber.

[Llewndyn]

Coming off my self-imposed posting ban for this.

I ran with you on the Eyes of Stone series over the weekend. As far as a party leader goes, you're fine.

Granted we had some confusion with the first quest (I and a couple of other came in late), and there was a misunderstanding on Frame Work, but trust me when I say I've been in much worse PuGs in the past.

If there is any suggestions that I might make, it's that there needed to be a little more clarity at the start of the quest as to how we were going to do the quest. Frame Work ended up being a mess the first run because we tried zerging it, and I don't think everyone was on board with that. I know that the dozen-or-so times that I've run that quest, it was always a hack-and-slash slogfest - no one ever tried to just blow past all of the mobs, at least not without stealth. Aside from that, I don't think there was anything wrong with the way you ran the quests, or with the expectations you placed on the group. Had that technique, in fact, worked I would probably have used it for other runs. it is always good to learn something new in the game.

The only other criticism is that I would have liked an extra chest or two as I'm a conspicuous loot-*****, and it is my nature to be overtly greedy. :P

I'd run with you again.

Yeah that's another reason I don't like to lead or explain stuff, if I am explaining I am not paying attention to what I am doing, and that leads to getting hit. Getting hit leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering, and being a soul stone is not far behind :P

I have seen it work without all the fighting, just invis and run to end, yeah some stuff will see you and pull along, and you will have a nice little fight at the end, but I've seen it work... we got all spread out and everyone got isolated and that's when I realized we needed to do it your way.

Extra chest woulda been great, but didn't want to put undue tax on the group, we ended up doing fine, but for a moment there...

[Llewndyn]

You're good enough. You're smart enough. And godh darn it, people like you.

That, along with "I've got rhythm, I've got music, I've got moxie who could ask for anything more" is my morning self pep talk, I say it in the mirror until I feel good about the day. You should hear the whiners I drive in my carpool, always with their negativity: "Pay attention to the road!" "You're on the wrong side of the highway!" "That's my pocket your hand is in!"

[Spoonwelder]

I have a simple process:

Wings? Yes - Go to 1, No - Go to 2
No wings? - Ask if they know the quest well- Yes - Go to 1, No - Go to 2.


1. No hand holding - until you prove that you don't know the quest.
2. Provide some key and timely advice (ie. don't tell them where the trap is after they run through it)

That said if I join a group with no chatter I am fine with that up to the point where it is noticeable that the group needs direction. Ie. yesterday had a Deleras run - part 4 we split at the normal split point. I go trap side with one other - other 4 go the other way. We finish trap side and come back to center and notice none of the others moving and just down the hall to the other side. I run over and they are standing there waiting at the 3 levers - doing nothing :( So at this point I am mildly grumpy due to wasting my XP pot....but I tell them it is always the left lever so next time they can handle it themselves.....We finished ok but the point is that a bit of two way communication there would have helped.

[Karavek]

right or wrong( mostly wrong) MMO in general and DDO in paticular have two roles so to speak that generally suffer the burden of responsibility even if you just want to have a fun stress free play session.

The first is the group leader. aka "ThatGuyWithTheStar". TGWTS for short is the one who by default is going to get yelled at if things go bad. This will usually include complaints about direction ability, team building skills or a lack there of, and being to gimp or not knowing the quest well enough to be building a group for it.

The 2nd one is the cleric/fvs aka "ThatGuyGodsTalkTo". TGGTT will even more likely suffer verbal abuse and harrasment from strangers. Be it the mana sponge who refuses to use pots to top off between fights, to the leader who demands you drink pots for the sake of the group that he put together. Most times your better off listening to that voice in your head that tells you to leave the unfaithful to rot and go it alone with a pack full of soul stones. You learn to draw power from the cries of agony from the dead and secretly ally with others only to see them die and thus increase your own dark satisfaction.

[MaxwellEdison]

That, along with "I've got rhythm, I've got music, I've got moxie who could ask for anything more" is my morning self pep talk, I say it in the mirror until I feel good about the day. You should hear the whiners I drive in my carpool, always with their negativity: "Pay attention to the road!" "You're on the wrong side of the highway!" "That's my pocket your hand is in!"

I feel obliged to point out I really have no idea who you are and only picked out 3 sentences at random to read from the OP before posting.

tl;dr:

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/funny-gifs-will-only-read.gif

[Llewndyn]

Why should anyone care?

What you assume is your business. How you handle groups you form is your business. Being smug about your superiority because you (or a guild mate) is narrating a quest only to be asked to stay quiet doesn't say anything positive about either you or your guild mate.

Your initial premise is full of fail. Nobody says stuff about mayonnaise (except to note whether they prefer it to Miracle Whip). Group leaders often do not know quests. Neither do they want someone else to tell them how to succeed in the quest.

As surprising as it may be to you, not everyone needs or wants the solution before they attempt the problem. For a great many people there is tremendous enjoyment in just figuring the quest out.

So, exactly how is it NOT a drama thread since you seem intent on telling us all how things ought to be? Seems to me that this is the very definition of a drama thread, unless we want to call it by its other name.

Then again, you didn't mention bridges or fishing.... :rolleyes:

I will assume for the moment, that you have found a sense of humor, and are joking (can't remember what movie that is from, but am going to go with High School High)... I actually was saying the opposite. I DON'T tell people what to do, would rather just run the quest and talk about other stuff.

Mayonnaise is what Miracle Whip tried to be but failed.

I don't mind you figuring the quest out. I don't tell people where the traps are. I don't mind you dying. I hope you don't mind me dying. Nowhere in this thread, be it from me or people responding outside of you, is anything else implied. Please point out where I am being "smug" about my "superiority" (ask anyone I run with, I am NEVER superior, I just don't care enough to be), and I will correct it, as that is not my intention.

Also, trap box third pillar up. Now get yer shinebox.

[dterror]

right or wrong( mostly wrong) MMO in general and DDO in paticular have two roles so to speak that generally suffer the burden of responsibility even if you just want to have a fun stress free play session.

The first is the group leader. aka "ThatGuyWithTheStar". TGWTS for short is the one who by default is going to get yelled at if things go bad. This will usually include complaints about direction ability, team building skills or a lack there of, and being to gimp or not knowing the quest well enough to be building a group for it.

The 2nd one is the cleric/fvs aka "ThatGuyGodsTalkTo". TGGTT will even more likely suffer verbal abuse and harrasment from strangers. Be it the mana sponge who refuses to use pots to top off between fights, to the leader who demands you drink pots for the sake of the group that he put together. Most times your better off listening to that voice in your head that tells you to leave the unfaithful to rot and go it alone with a pack full of soul stones. You learn to draw power from the cries of agony from the dead and secretly ally with others only to see them die and thus increase your own dark satisfaction.

#2 includes druids too, sometimes. i've been yelled at this life for 'letting people die', even though I'm in the middle of melee as a winter wolf, and I make it well known before the quest even starts that any mass healing I do will be centered on me and me alone. Move out of range, not my problem...you'll just turn into an inventory slot.

[gallantian]

Also, trap box third pillar up. Now get yer shinebox.

+1 for this particular reference
hehehe

[varusso]

What is the line then?
<snip>

A few points to consider when forming a group:
* Unless specified in some form or fashion as a "know it" group (which you do), assume that 50% of your puglies wont know it and joined the LFM specifically because they want to learn it.
* Being the star and being the leader are not the same thing. Many folks who join LFMs do so simply because they dont feel like putting one up themselves and dealing with the drama of being the star. They may be quite capable of leading the group but just dont feel like doing it.
* When everything goes south, almost everyone looks for someone else to blame other than themselves -- namely the healer and the leader.
* Communication is key: Even if you ARE running a "know it" group, you still need to be ready to share your basic gameplan, as not everyone "knows it" the same way. Will you be doing opts? Will you be trying for bonuses? Which of the 3 "common" strategies will you be using for Objective X? If your gameplan is to just run to the end, let everyone fend for themselves, and ignore questions from the group about what you want to accomplish -- well you get out of it what you put into it.
* Folks joining a pug need to take a little responsibility for themselves as well. Whether or not the run is a "know it" run, they need to be clear and up front if they DONT know the quest. Personal experience tells me that these folks are seldom the cause of the group fail, as they have shown enough common sense to speak up in the first place -- they tend to be a bit smarter and more cautious as well.
* Some folks like to teach, some like to zerg, some love being told what to do, some thikn its a personal affront that anyone else would DARE tell them where a trap is or which mob needs to die first. Most often they are a mixture of some of these factors and many others.

I have been in just about every type of run from flower sniffing and learning to zerging and even griefing. I have seen the knotheads who blow up because the star has the audacity to provide key information (or even guided tours) throughout the quest. Obviously, the star is doing so to ensure that the run goes smoothly, but some ppl just have that gear loose in their head and think its somehow offensive when someone else offers advice. Being a long-time gamer myself, who remembers my own humble newbish roots, I personally dont find it offensive, and in fact have told that "special" player to shut the hell up more than once when they get on the leader for actually LEADING the group. Even if I know the quest better than they do, I am fine with them being a tourguide. For one thing, I know sometimes there is a player lurking in the group who doesnt know it quite as well but is afraid to speak up (mainly because of the "special" players), and may benefit from being told NOT to step in the corridor yet, or die. Anyone offended by a guide is an idjit in my book -- provided of course the guide isnt being obnoxious about it.

As far as where the line is drawn -- wherever you wish to draw it. Its your group; one of the privileges is being able to decide such things. If someone doesnt like it, they can form their own and lead it (or not) however they wish. If someone doesnt like how you lead, then THEY can "lead" if they think they can do better (since you dont actually want to lead). If not, they can suck up and bust.

I personally prefer a group of self-sufficient players who all know the quest. But I also like having a leader who is willing to issue instructions as needed, when the situation warrants it, in order to better coordinate efforts and resources. I find that the groups I enjoy MOST are the ones you described: where everyone ends up chit-chatting about whatever. laughing, having a good time, etc. In those groups, the "leader" role seems to be more fluid; everyone just kinda gravitates toward the common goal, no one person actually LEADS per se, but somehow interspersed in all the silliness is enough "real" discussion so that everyone is on the same page:

"Yeah, so i was at the bar the other night -- you guys wanna head that way and start clearing while I grab the key real quick? -- and my buddy Frank shows up with the most god-awful haircut...."

[Shmuel]

all us "froob" (where did that term go? I miss it) players from September 2009 learned in that same way, as the veterans from those days still hated us with unbridled passion and gentle touches behind the wayward lobster.

We didn't ALL hate you. Some of us are just not very patient.
:)

[chrichton]

I don't see any problems with the way you post groups. I say "post groups" because I never equated the person posting with being the leader. I have no problem with it one way or the other, but never assume it will be such a way. Some pugs are in need of direction and some are not, generally, someone will step up if needed and that is not always the star, nor should it have to be.

A phrase tossed around here from time to time is "it's not my job to teach you the quest" and that is true. If you don't know the run, the owness is on the individual to speak up and tell the group that he/she is not familiar with xyz. In my experience, this is not generally treated with derision but the other puggers will help out and appreciated the person letting them know they are in unfamiliar territory.

Each group has it's own dynamic and lately I have found myself running in many pugs as if I were soloing, sometimes that is the only way to be content.
I think by "owness" you mean "onus". I normally don't correct people's spelling, but this one made me giggle. I re-read that sentence bunch of times and could not figure out what it is you were trying to say - - until I thought of it phonetically.
:)

[Sarzor]

If I post a quest saying "BYOH," "no hand-holding," or something similar I expect people to know it. It tends to be either in the more difficult quests, when I'm short on time, or when I just don't feel like guiding people through a quest I could do in my sleep. An elite at-level wiz king does much faster with people who know it than when people don't.

If I just post "elite for BB" or nothing at all, I assume people don't know the quest unless they say otherwise. I'll normally ask at the start "who is unfamiliar with the quest, so I don't assume you know something" and anyone who speaks up, I'll guide. If they stay quiet and suck, then well, my patience is low. Some of the people I enjoy questing with most I guided through quests. I mean hell, all of us were clueless at some time. I look back at some of my early characters and just shudder at what I must have been thinking, and what other people must of thought of me.

That being said, unless I see otherwise, I assume the leader is the one with the star. There have been a number of groups I was in where I was passed the star after forming since I was most familiar with the quest. I have little patience for someone who forms a group and lets everyone do whatever they want in the quest. A group of knowledgeable players can get away with it, a random PUG cannot.

[MindCake]

owness
onus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onus)

Now I don't disagree. The star does _not_ mean you have any special obligation to lead, support, hand hold, pull the dead weight or do anything else.

However, there is something else, that means joining or starting a party comes with an obligation to work towards all the common goals, which by default include: successful completion, limiting the used resources and having fun. I call it "not being a jerk".
Of course, if the other people's problems are messing with your fun (or completion, or used resources or whatever) then they fall out of the system. And if the LFM clearly states "byoh know it" and they don't, well, best way to work toward that goal may be booting them. And if that's the LFM you put, well, it's yours.
But if you know the quest inside out, have lots of gear and skill, perhaps consider spending some of your spare energy on helping the less experienced/geared/skilled players?

Also, I can't help but wonder how the OP learned by joining "know it byoh ip" lfms.
But it may be just a pet peeve of mine, I hate the thing called "pulling up the ladder." and the whole "newbs can stay in the harbor" attitude that sometimes seems to permeate the game.
I've been playing this game for close to two years, but I still remember dying in "the collaborator", normal, and being confused about what's next, I remember people being jerks and ruining my fun, remember soloing difficult quests for the fear of another PuG gone wrong, and I remember doing some stupid things too, but I feel no desire to take revenge on the new people, quite the contrary, I'm all about helping them (as long as it doesn't cost me).

[macubrae]

...and we have friends in the game that never stop talking. Being that we have small children, all of our headsets and mics have been broken, but we talk and joke around without them knowing.

For the most part, it's probably better that they can't hear me, I pick on people alot. We are fine with typing out our eddited responses and following along at a casual pace. At times, we had done the very quest twice with other toons the day before and enjoy the friends narration, especially when we know it is wrong.

Whoops!! He died because he didn't quite remember where the trap was and searched while standing in the wrong place... and we watched... and typed nothing... because we were laughing... for the second time on this quest, and we will hold our breath and secretly hope that he does it again on the next one.

While in Rainbow, "There's the beholder, CHARGE!!! Oh ****, I forgot about the pit trap!" DING, and again by the gnolls. I think we'll bring more people to see if they'll follow him.

"ATTACK!!!... NO WAIT!!!...DINGDINGDING" and fun will be had by me.

[Sobriquet]

Wait, what . . .

There are groups in this game? Are you sure you posted in the right forums?

[gallantian]

onus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onus)

Now I don't disagree. The star does _not_ mean you have any special obligation to lead, support, hand hold, pull the dead weight or do anything else.

However, there is something else, that means joining or starting a party comes with an obligation to work towards all the common goals, which by default include: successful completion, limiting the used resources and having fun. I call it "not being a jerk".
Of course, if the other people's problems are messing with your fun (or completion, or used resources or whatever) then they fall out of the system. And if the LFM clearly states "byoh know it" and they don't, well, best way to work toward that goal may be booting them. And if that's the LFM you put, well, it's yours.
But if you know the quest inside out, have lots of gear and skill, perhaps consider spending some of your spare energy on helping the less experienced/geared/skilled players?

Also, I can't help but wonder how the OP learned by joining "know it byoh ip" lfms.
But it may be just a pet peeve of mine, I hate the thing called "pulling up the ladder." and the whole "newbs can stay in the harbor" attitude that sometimes seems to permeate the game.
I've been playing this game for close to two years, but I still remember dying in "the collaborator", normal, and being confused about what's next, I remember people being jerks and ruining my fun, remember soloing difficult quests for the fear of another PuG gone wrong, and I remember doing some stupid things too, but I feel no desire to take revenge on the new people, quite the contrary, I'm all about helping them (as long as it doesn't cost me).

Firstly
nitpick (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nitpick)
Secondly if the first part of your post is in reference to mine, I agree in team work etc, etc, etc, and not being a jerk, but I also think that there is a responsibility to inform others when you are not in the know in a group. This is unless of course, it is clear that it is a run for new people to the quest, RPers or whatever. If you keep getting lost and run around until you get killed without letting anyone know you are not familiar, you might be ruining my fun, if you HAVE said something and I leave you to the proverbial wolves, then agreed, I might be ruining your fun.

[Drelak]

I feel this thread and several much less good mannered ones are started because people feel bad about how they and their friends have been treated in game, usually by strangers.

It may help a little to understand why some people are so irritable especially at the time of failure. It does not justify their behavior, however.

For RL example I suffer from generalized anxiety disorder. I get really irritated by threatening things in RL, and then I LOVE to get my dose of DDO. It is a drug for me. It closes this nasty real world out of my mind. I can relax.
If I am interrupted during my gaming I get angry. The more stressed I was the angrier I get. I mean I speak impolitely and may yell without noticing. Not in game, as I do not use voice chat.

It is easy to imagine, that other people who are in similar situation _but do not know it yet_, will get very angry because of any deviation from their "dream DDO session", and because these people are under the illusion that they are more or less perfect (this is a mental defence mechanism), they will blame anyone else who is present.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

or you are a gimp noob who smells of mayonnaise and failure

Mayonnaise with Pommes is tasty ! :)

[Antiguo]

If you apply to my elite group or my hard farm group, you better know the quest, or else you'll be kicked out. Sorry but newbies have no bussiness in elite quests, and dont need to farm.

[benneburg]

Isn't the term froob from AO? It's the only game I've seen it be used in, there's also a cosmetic shirt with the text fr00b on it. :)

Recently Miiir tried to get a hold in the merchandise sector, its first product was the 'fr00b' T-shirt. The problem was that at the time no one knew what a fr00b was, and needless to say, the shirt was no great success.
This seems to origin from the first, and so far only, shipment ever to arrive on Rubi-Ka, and fashion experts, such as Divenchy, has predicted that these T-shirts would become popular only if they are used by the right people.

Don't lead groups very often, it's not my thing. When I do, if I get a pack of zerging completionist powergamers, that's the pace we'll go at.
If it's a bunch of first life, first timers, I'll let them set the pace, lean back and relax a little. Also end up helping them, and giving advice, if they want it.

If someone begin leading the group, so be it, our objective is the same. As long we get it done, and have a good time, I'm fine with that.


benne^

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Only raids need a leader.

and even then, I think they only need loose leadersip... and this is only so that people know what tactics are to be used so that they can work together and know who is performing what role. (if needed)

(I actually think raids can be done in a different manner, but I lack willing players to prove it.)

Some quests require working together, but that is not the same thing as needing a leader.

People do need to help each other. They should be aware of what other players are doing and attempt to work with them.

I do not appreciate soloers who join PUGs just to have five cheer leaders follow them through a quest. (or /cheer from the entrance)

I expect a group to more or less stick together and work together... and especially help each other if needed...

... but we do not need a leader.

[Ralmeth]

There is a difference between knowing a quest and leading a quest...To be a good leader you don't need to know the quest inside and out, but you need to know how to *gasp* lead. This involves communicating with your team regarding how to get through the quest instead of assuming everyone knows what you want them to do. This means understanding who might be good at what (which takes communication) and letting your team members go and do what they do best, instead of directing everyone's every move. A good leader will discuss with the team what to do at key decision points and take their suggestions into consideration. Etc.

However if that's not your play style I would just make sure to *gasp* communicate with people that might join your group by putting a note in the LFM, such as "Know it".

[chrichton]

If you apply to my elite group or my hard farm group, you better know the quest, or else you'll be kicked out. Sorry but newbies have no bussiness in elite quests, and dont need to farm.

Isn't there room for something in between newb and "know it"? I have been playing off and on since beta, but I do not even try to memorize all details of all quests. This helps keep it fresh(er) for me and more fun. I may group with a PUG on a quest that I know I have done before - maybe even lots of times, but can't remember details, just based on the name of the quest. I may enter the quest, and go "oohh - THIS one" and *still* not remember all details - but it is certainly very far from fail.

[Antiguo]

Isn't there room for something in between newb and "know it"? I have been playing off and on since beta, but I do not even try to memorize all details of all quests. This helps keep it fresh(er) for me and more fun. I may group with a PUG on a quest that I know I have done before - maybe even lots of times, but can't remember details, just based on the name of the quest. I may enter the quest, and go "oohh - THIS one" and *still* not remember all details - but it is certainly very far from fail.

That is fine, it happends to me a lot aswell, but when you have to remind someone to wear deathblock, or even worse, when he ask the dreadful question "where's the quest?"........ One cant expect to know every detail about a quest, but lets say a 90%? 80%?. Newbies, and note i didnt say noobs, should stick to 1 time hard modes or normal modes.

[Ralmeth]

Isn't there room for something in between newb and "know it"? I have been playing off and on since beta, but I do not even try to memorize all details of all quests. This helps keep it fresh(er) for me and more fun. I may group with a PUG on a quest that I know I have done before - maybe even lots of times, but can't remember details, just based on the name of the quest. I may enter the quest, and go "oohh - THIS one" and *still* not remember all details - but it is certainly very far from fail.

In my opinion, yes there definitely is. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a ton of people out there in your same shoes, such as myself. Some quests I know really well, others kind of, and others not so much. The LFM panel is helpful to figure out which groups might be the best for you. Different people have different playstyles. Some people like to blast through on elite with other people that know the quests inside and out, and they tend to put "know it" or similar in their LFM. If you don't know the quest inside and out, that group probably isn't for you. I lead PUGS all the time and I'm always fine with taking someone into my group that's doesn't know the quest inside and out. It's more important to me that people in my group are cool to play with, and can communicate and work as a team. So just look for LFMs that don't have "know it" or similar in their LFM. Or if you don't see a group up that you want to join, make your own group. The best part of being the leader is you get to decide which quest you want to do, what difficulty to run, etc.

[Ralmeth]

That is fine, it happends to me a lot aswell, but when you have to remind someone to wear deathblock, or even worse, when he ask the dreadful question "where's the quest?"........ One cant expect to know every detail about a quest, but lets say a 90%? 80%?. Newbies, and note i didnt say noobs, should stick to 1 time hard modes or normal modes.

I don't agree with most of what you said.
1) When you are leveling up you might only have a deathblock clicky (ex. the goggles from Tangleroot) and may not remember when a mob is coming up that can one-shot you with a death spell (it took me getting killed a couple of times by the end boss in Necro 4 to learn to always use your deathward clicky before going into that fight). So it's not reasonable to expect everyone to have deathblock on. In higher level quests I always make sure that everyone has deathward and will cast it on everyone while playing my Pally if a divine didn't cast it.

2) As I mentioned above, so long as you have a decent leader / team, it is NOT necessary to know 80-90% of a quest to run it on elite. Where's your sense of adventure? It can be quite a fun challenge to go in on a quest on elite that you don't know that well...I've run certain quests before solo on elite the first time at level, and won. Some people care about optimal XP per minute, while others want to just play and be challenged. If elite is way over someone's head and they are just wanting to pike for the XP, then it is not cool of them to expect everyone else to beat the quest for them. On the other hand, some people like a good challenge, even newer players. So I don't agree with the statement that newbies must run normal or hard first.

3) It's not so much a problem that someone asks, "where's the quest?" If your LFM has "know it" on it or similar, then that person shouldn't be surprised when they get booted after asking this question. However to me it's more important when someone asks, "where's the quest", and you explain where it is, can they follow directions to get there? If someone just forgot where it was and your explanation helps them to get there quickly, then that seems okay to me. However if you explain where to go and they just don't get it, decide to go sell their vendor trash before trying to get to the quest where everyone else is waiting, etc, then you're probably right that they shouldn't be joining that group and wasting everyone else's time.

[goodspeed]

I just join and then run ahead. Like servents. ive done it so many times hard and norm the group goes one way to get the crests, I'm already jogging through the lava koing reavers and then duking it out with the boss for a lil extra xp.

Occasionally i'll hear some nub with 4 people around em (lol usually the leader but somtimes the healer) declare you need to stay with the group!

And I gotta tell ya, honestly, their's no greater feeling when they all die and then I get to walk in and cut down everything and pick their bodies up. Now at this time I don't have to say anything. I do some hops around the bodies and the outspoken individual will rage quit on the spot hahahah.

The best thing is when it's a healer though. Cause if it's a heal they automatically got this mindset like they're god. And they are... to maybe a barb. All my alts can whip heals. So of course god over there isn't gonna give u a heal, he's seething with unbridled rage, waiting, praying and hoping you die so the first words can automatically be a sneer.

And only once has that situation played out. ... .... but I beat the sucker to it. Then I did laugh at em and of course resulting in a rage quit. I don't understand what they all get so worked up over lol.


Anyway the moral of the story is, don't be a .. well something. If you know what ur doing, odds are you can carry the others.

[Llewndyn]

Only raids need a leader.

and even then, I think they only need loose leadersip... and this is only so that people know what tactics are to be used so that they can work together and know who is performing what role. (if needed)

(I actually think raids can be done in a different manner, but I lack willing players to prove it.)

Some quests require working together, but that is not the same thing as needing a leader.

People do need to help each other. They should be aware of what other players are doing and attempt to work with them.

I do not appreciate soloers who join PUGs just to have five cheer leaders follow them through a quest. (or /cheer from the entrance)

I expect a group to more or less stick together and work together... and especially help each other if needed...

... but we do not need a leader.

I will always help someone if they need it, and have done so numerous times. Mostly though, I like people along for the company, and would rather not micromanage everyone into oblivion by telling them "Trap here, use +5 tools, the DC is" or yelling at people to get various stuff... most of the time I will inconvenience myself a little more by picking up when I asked someone else to pick up rather than harp on them... this is what my thread was about. How much management is a party leader supposed to give in this clime of everyone knows every quest and spends thread after thread after thread bragging about how awesome they are and don't need anything?

We have a great example of this in Kansas City. The coach of our pro football team was a guy named Todd Haley. Todd was a jerk. He also micromanaged every aspect of every player's life, and we sucked (well that and we had no talent but lets keep this simple) and we went 2-14, then 4-12. I was sad.

Before Todd Haley, once upon a time, we had a guy named Gunther Cunningham. Gunther was more hands off. He did what most football coaches did, but NFL players don't need to be babysat. They have the talent, they have the will, they had moxie and gosh darnit people liked them, all he really needed to do was worry about his job and provide a gentle guiding hand when it was needed, but for the most part stay hands off. We were 13-3 his last year.

Most of the above is factually incorrect, because I did no research. But the story's tenets hold true: a good DDO player needs minimal instruction, if any at all, or if they don't know the quest, a gentle guiding hand. If you need me to tell you how everything must go and order you around in order to complete a quest, you are not a good DDO player.

[Llewndyn]

There is a difference between knowing a quest and leading a quest...To be a good leader you don't need to know the quest inside and out, but you need to know how to *gasp* lead. This involves communicating with your team regarding how to get through the quest instead of assuming everyone knows what you want them to do. This means understanding who might be good at what (which takes communication) and letting your team members go and do what they do best, instead of directing everyone's every move. A good leader will discuss with the team what to do at key decision points and take their suggestions into consideration. Etc.

However if that's not your play style I would just make sure to *gasp* communicate with people that might join your group by putting a note in the LFM, such as "Know it".

If typing up snarky responses to internet forum posts adversely impacts your ability to breathe, you should seek medical help.

[Ralmeth]

If typing up snarky responses to internet forum posts adversely impacts your ability to breathe, you should seek medical help.

You know what I meant.

[Synsuous]

You're good enough. You're smart enough. And godh darn it, people like you.

lol. First laugh I have had from the forums today. +1

[Synsuous]

That, along with "I've got rhythm, I've got music, I've got moxie who could ask for anything more" is my morning self pep talk, I say it in the mirror until I feel good about the day. You should hear the whiners I drive in my carpool, always with their negativity: "Pay attention to the road!" "You're on the wrong side of the highway!" "That's my pocket your hand is in!"

Lol. When I drive to work, I like to listen to Bad Habbit, by Offspring...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wMa_t5cBgY

[Synsuous]

Isn't the term froob from AO? It's the only game I've seen it be used in, there's also a cosmetic shirt with the text fr00b on it. :)

benne^


That's the only place I have ever seen it either. AO is fun.

[Juduss]

I just join and then run ahead... Occasionally i'll hear some nub... declare you need to stay with the group!... when they all die and then I get to walk in and cut down everything and pick their bodies up...
^Edited to shorten the post^

Sounds like all you really want to do is join groups so you can solo/do what you want while hoping the rest fail so you can laugh and feel superior to what are (I'm guessing) a bunch of people newer & less experienced than you are. Had you stayed with the group, perhaps there wouldn't have been as many, if any, stones to pick up. You sound like a grade school bully picking on the smaller kids so he can feel big & tough. How pathetic that your fun revolves around others failures, which you potentially contributed to.

[Deathdefy]

In the vast majority of my LFMS, I put "Elite", "IP", and "BYOH" OR "Probably BYOH" (since hey, maybe a nice healer will join).

Hopefully, this turns off players who have never done the quest before, or don't carry around at least a stack of cure serious pots.

I firmly believe anyone joining an IP group without knowing the content is probably an idiot or at best inconsiderate. They can cuss me out all they want after their inevitable death on the way to the rest of the group. Note that I'll provide polite directions because booting people leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but seriously, what are you doing?

As to "new people need a chance to learn the quest". Sure. Solo it with a hireling or put up a normal (or even casual) lfm. That's what I did to learn the game and what a lot of other people did too.

It's a fun experience to go through a quest on normal in a group of undergeared characters/newbies, and I am glad I had a healthy fear of clicking BYOH lfms for a long time until I was ready. It's not fun for anyone to be in a group you don't belong in. For the same reason, zergers shouldn't be hitting up first-timer runs.

I have 0 sympathy for players purporting to need to maintain Bravery streak on a first or second life. If you are undergeared and have TRed twice without gearing up at cap such that you can't handle elites without a group and also aren't self-sufficient, then that's also your own fault.

Given my lfm description, as a leader I will give the requisite directions in the very few quests that need them,
e.g. I'll say to go Left or Right at the start of Ritual Sacrifice.
Broadly though, I'm totally on board with Llewellyn's minimalistic quest instruction-style. Irrelevant chat is obviously a plus!

The only time I have found myself facing leader criticism is when I've broken my own rules by trying to help someone who falls into the category of people who shouldn't have clicked the lfm. I suspect your critique came as a result of something similar, OP.

[MeliCat]

If I've understood your OP Llewndyn then I would say leadership style needs to be adjusted as it becomes clear what type of group you have. And that I've often fallen foul of people either assuming too much or too little. If it becomes clear by playstyle, gear or whatever that you have a less experienced player, and you haven't excluded such if your lfm, then it might be nice for all if you make general comments about where traps are, where is a good place to fight in the next battle and with what, which mobs to target first etc. setting people up to fail is not fun or nice. If however it's a solid group, or players have indicated that that's what they think they are, then it's best to say nothing much excepting where genuine leadership is required (raids: pls give this buff x, let's do this bit invis, I don't usually bother with breakables for this one we're going for speed)

I'm forever getting in trouble for saying too much :D And as I don't know quests still to the very last detail I've been reluctant to lfm for exactly the reasons cited. I find soloing boring and lonely though so I expect to be putting up lfms and facing the exact same quandaries. But I've also met some lovely people while pugging. Let it go and just take it one lfm at a time I guess?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I will always help someone if they need it, and have done so numerous times. Mostly though, I like people along for the company, and would rather not micromanage everyone into oblivion by telling them "Trap here, use +5 tools, the DC is" or yelling at people to get various stuff... most of the time I will inconvenience myself a little more by picking up when I asked someone else to pick up rather than harp on them... this is what my thread was about. How much management is a party leader supposed to give in this clime of everyone knows every quest and spends thread after thread after thread bragging about how awesome they are and don't need anything?

We have a great example of this in Kansas City. The coach of our pro football team was a guy named Todd Haley. Todd was a jerk. He also micromanaged every aspect of every player's life, and we sucked (well that and we had no talent but lets keep this simple) and we went 2-14, then 4-12. I was sad.

Before Todd Haley, once upon a time, we had a guy named Gunther Cunningham. Gunther was more hands off. He did what most football coaches did, but NFL players don't need to be babysat. They have the talent, they have the will, they had moxie and gosh darnit people liked them, all he really needed to do was worry about his job and provide a gentle guiding hand when it was needed, but for the most part stay hands off. We were 13-3 his last year.

Most of the above is factually incorrect, because I did no research. But the story's tenets hold true: a good DDO player needs minimal instruction, if any at all, or if they don't know the quest, a gentle guiding hand. If you need me to tell you how everything must go and order you around in order to complete a quest, you are not a good DDO player.

That is more or less what I belive.

Good players need very minimal instruction (or none).

and the quests are not that hard, that goo dplayers would ever need to tell bad players anything IMO....

when you can solo the quest, why do you need to tell other people how to finish it?

I also think that surprises are part of the fun. I know the most fun days for me is the first day of a new mod when no one "knows it".
so I have a strict "no spoilers" policy in DDO. Some exceptions if the quest has a failure condition, or the information is just very critical... but even then, I usually just point out the failure condition to avoid/prevent. Or mention that the next fight is a real tough one... etc.

I avoid leadership though, for that very reason. I don't want to be in a position where I feel it is my responsibility to give spoilers, or tell people how to play a quest.

I'd much rather follow along, and just use my own tactics and knowlege to be ready to save them from what is coming next, without telling them about it..

[chrichton]

I just join and then run ahead. Like servents. ive done it so many times hard and norm the group goes one way to get the crests, I'm already jogging through the lava koing reavers and then duking it out with the boss for a lil extra xp.

Occasionally i'll hear some nub with 4 people around em (lol usually the leader but somtimes the healer) declare you need to stay with the group!

And I gotta tell ya, honestly, their's no greater feeling when they all die and then I get to walk in and cut down everything and pick their bodies up. Now at this time I don't have to say anything. I do some hops around the bodies and the outspoken individual will rage quit on the spot hahahah.

The best thing is when it's a healer though. Cause if it's a heal they automatically got this mindset like they're god. And they are... to maybe a barb. All my alts can whip heals. So of course god over there isn't gonna give u a heal, he's seething with unbridled rage, waiting, praying and hoping you die so the first words can automatically be a sneer.

And only once has that situation played out. ... .... but I beat the sucker to it. Then I did laugh at em and of course resulting in a rage quit. I don't understand what they all get so worked up over lol.


Anyway the moral of the story is, don't be a .. well something. If you know what ur doing, odds are you can carry the others.
. . . wow . . .

I wish players such as yourself would all put all of your character names on a server on a list so we can know who to avoid.