My gosh, finally hit me how much destiny XP you need for twists

[SSFWEl]

This is not really a rant, and not anything new to those whom have been grinding out destiny XP, but I finally realized how much you really need to twist anything above tier I.

In the beginning I thought, wow this is cool, this twist thing. A great idea, the king of thing I LOVE in this game, true to the multiclassing concept. I was happy.
Then I realized that you need to grind out more XP to get fate points - OK, fair enough, I said to myself.
Then I starting figuring out what I want.
Then last night I calculated how many fate points I need, 11, (one tier III and 2 tier I) and my heart dropped. I do think they made it a bit too crazy. I mean, sure, you need to grind XP, but c'mon, THAT much? Even just 3 tier I twists, will take 18 levels in EDs. I need 33! Even if I skip the third twist and get just a single Tier III and a single Tier I, I still need 8 points. My gosh.


Needing to run broken chains a zillion times, is NOT what DDO is supposed to be. I did this for a few hours untill my eyes bled.
I love this game because to get most of your XP, you just need to play the game at your level, without too much repetition. But Turbine seems bent on changing this, don't know why. And all the while, you are not even enjoying the ED you WANT! :(

I am pretty disappointed.

[Badnade]

I love this game because to get most of your XP, you just need to play the game at your level, without too much repetition. .


ok, I have not been around long. (update 11) but I have to say, my impression about DDO is exactly the opposite.

From what things apprear on the forum, and from how things were untilll update 15, this was a VERY grindy game.

Alot of repetition, alot of the same-ol same-ol, untill you managed to finaly get that item/ability you wanted.

I come from the world of MUDs, and am really shocked to see how much of the same thing ( again and again )come with MMOs.

Things do change, and each run can be graded on its own, but its still another Shroud run.
Still another ADQ.
Still another ToD.

Untill you get lucky.. and then you never need to do it again.

Unless you TR or like to "diversify" or some other such rediculous thing.

[ShadowFlash]

I don't think it's really set in to a large number of non power-gamers yet. I see it all the time in build discussions where twists are now factored into the build like every other (cough yugo pots) bell and whistle know to man. I love building toons as much as the next guy, but when builds are presented that require sooo many power-gamer modifiers (now including twists) it mis-represents what the builds are for the "average" player. Perfect examples are starting STR 12 builds that claim 40+ without any level-ups. Now DPS calcs are included assuming things like sense weakness (Tier 4...10 fate points) as representative of realistic numbers...or DC gains from twisting caster stats at all Tiers possible.

I've suggeted a few times in semi-casual players/static group threads that it's worth considering to no longer go with the level to 18, bank to 20, then TR approach. TR's have lost value, but are still relevant. For most average players however, it would probablly be more beneficial to level all the way now, farm a destiny or two out..then TR and do it over. I think once this sets in, we'll see more builds that usually would be designed to farm a life, now designed to farm a life + 2 destinies. It's just a smarter approach.

End-Game "epic" content is not what it used to be. I frequently see blatant discouraging of 1st lifers participating in epics, ignoring the fact that mechanics now exist for just about any toon to enjoy the new content and farm a destiny or two.

ShadowFlash

[Rawel_San]

I have gone and farmed out my wizards 50 destiny levels at once. It was new and as such, only very mind numbing.
Then I started on my monk and realized that I would go insane if I tried to do that again. I think I've run about 10
death undone and maybe 14 blades runs on him and most of that was either for ring or just jumping in
guildie's farms. I can't bring myself to grind it.

So I decided to go the other way. He needed a TR anyhow (1st life) and I got to use a stone. I capped the 3 mil
epic xp never repeating any epic quest more then twice (one hard one norm). This means that none of the epic
quests I run give me repeat penalties. I'm now at 30 destiny levels with nothing that felt like grinding. I play
him and try out every destiny not hurrying anywhere. Playing what I feel like. See a von 3 up? Join for a
fun run. See a beyond the rift run epic normal for a newbie that needs help getting through it? Join for a fun run.

I'm enjoying it and I know eventually I will get to those 50 or 48 epic levels for full fate points. It won't be
tomorrow and won't have taken a week and half like my wizard did but I will get there slow and steady. Most
importantly though I will be enjoying all of the way I get to try out things my wizard never bothered to even put
points in because he went through the destinies too fast.

I think that very few builds really need twists (casters are probably the worst off for this), but at the same time
epic xp can be gotten slow and steady. I mean the character will be playing the end game anyhow right? Every
time you run a quest you get xp. Just keep playing and the twists will come.

My 2 copper,
Rawel

[lhidda]

I consider a lvl25 toon with one fully specced destiny to be a capped toon. This can be achieved pretty fast.
The rest is a bonus to me.

But of course if you wanna grind all twists (and destinies) a huge effort has to be done. The other side of the medal is that there are ways to get xp very(3x) fast.


... maybe 14 blades runs ...

None of both issues (huge grind, and high variability of xp/min ratio in different quests) are attributes of good game design.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Yes, it's quite a bit.

And it can be very grindy if repetition penalties from doing old quests at heroic levels are keeping down the xp you can get from epic versions.

Just don't LR once you finish earning your destinies, otherwise you might just get to DO IT ALL AGAIN.

Thanks.

[oweieie]

Good thing they nerfed the 4k/min or so solo challenges. Now there are lots of 10k+/min XP farming parties out there. You can knock out 11 fate points in a couple afternoons pretty easily.

[janave]

Its a common mistake that DDO is not *grindy*, the levelup of a first life character with all the xp candy bonuses grants this sense. Once you learn about reincarnation, past life stacking, and epic/raid gear, its pretty much as grindy as other MMOs out there. People usually quit at either the point they realise they need to *work* the game to get better at it, or when they already grinded out stuff for their character, and they got utterly exhausted.

The game is still 1-20 on a freshling, after that, its work. :)

[sirgog]

I consider a lvl25 toon with one fully specced destiny to be a capped toon. This can be achieved pretty fast.
The rest is a bonus to me.

But of course if you wanna grind all twists (and destinies) a huge effort has to be done. The other side of the medal is that there are ways to get xp very(3x) fast.



None of both issues (huge grind, and high variability of xp/min ratio in different quests) are attributes of good game design.

Two level 1 twists make a huge improvement to your hypothetical character, and come basically 'for free' when levelling to 25 (1.9m XP in main destiny, and 1.1m in off destiny puts you very, very close to level 4 there which grants two level 1 twists). Sure level 1 abilities are often not the best twists for your build, but they do help.

But yeah anything beyond that is a long way off. Even your third level 1 twist will take some time.

[TimethiefXVI]

I still needed some TRs so what im doing is a TR nad some epic lvls each life. keeps the grind low, and the first timers up XD

[MeliCat]

I have gone and farmed out my wizards 50 destiny levels at once. It was new and as such, only very mind numbing.
Then I started on my monk and realized that I would go insane if I tried to do that again. I think I've run about 10
death undone and maybe 14 blades runs on him and most of that was either for ring or just jumping in
guildie's farms. I can't bring myself to grind it.

So I decided to go the other way. He needed a TR anyhow (1st life) and I got to use a stone. I capped the 3 mil
epic xp never repeating any epic quest more then twice (one hard one norm). This means that none of the epic
quests I run give me repeat penalties. I'm now at 30 destiny levels with nothing that felt like grinding. I play
him and try out every destiny not hurrying anywhere. Playing what I feel like. See a von 3 up? Join for a
fun run. See a beyond the rift run epic normal for a newbie that needs help getting through it? Join for a fun run.

I'm enjoying it and I know eventually I will get to those 50 or 48 epic levels for full fate points. It won't be
tomorrow and won't have taken a week and half like my wizard did but I will get there slow and steady. Most
importantly though I will be enjoying all of the way I get to try out things my wizard never bothered to even put
points in because he went through the destinies too fast.

I think that very few builds really need twists (casters are probably the worst off for this), but at the same time
epic xp can be gotten slow and steady. I mean the character will be playing the end game anyhow right? Every
time you run a quest you get xp. Just keep playing and the twists will come.

My 2 copper,
Rawel

This is so encouraging to read from the first person on Thelanis to get them all :)

[BruceTheHoon]

Let's say, one does not level optimally and levels each destiny to level 5 (1.5M xp).
For 8 fate points, he would need 8*3/5*1.5M = 7.2M xp, which is a bit less than TRing twice. Benefits are about the same.
For 11 fate points, he would need 9.9M xp, which is approximately 2 TRs and a half. For me, benefits of 11 fate points are better.
With much greater base XP on epic difficulty, keeping XP/minute high isn't a problem (by my experience) and if one still feels impatient, he can always buy tome of fate.

The only sucky part I see is, that one has to spend majority of the time playing something he does not want. When TRing at least some lives are usually similar to the last one.

Anyway, welcome to TR world, where meager improvements cost millions!

[Fomori]

The only sucky part I see is, that one has to spend majority of the time playing something he does not want. When TRing at least some lives are usually similar to the last one
It only feels "sucky" if you have to be optimal 24/7. In running my monk through ED's I find that some destinies allow for more interesting gameplay despite not contributing significant power directly to my monk.

I have about 29 levels worth of destinies and not once have I ran any xp farming runs. So far the level ups have come as I have progressed for other objectives. Thus I am not burned out and am still enjoying the experience. Perhaps it's a more casual an approach but it shows that one can still make progress without having to feel like you need to burn out running the same subset of quests until your eyes bleed.

[Shade]

So what are you asking for?

Give you the best possible twists for free?

The issue here, is your use of the word "Need". You do not "NEED" twists.


need/nēd/
Verb:
Require (something) because it is essential or very important: "I need help now".
Noun:
Circumstances in which something is necessary, or that require some course of action; necessity: "the need for food".

The correct word is "want". You want all the best twists without working for it.

You do not "need" them.

You can complete everything in this game without a single twist. They are additional bonuses for players who want to play through the long haul.

Being it will be another 1-6 years or longer before the next lvl cap increase. I think if anything, the current system is too limited if anything. Even casual players could max it out long before any further advancement is offered.

So no, stop asking to be given the maximum power for the minimum effort. You don't "NEED" it. You want it. You can get it, if you put the time in. Stop asking for nerfs.

And it's hardly that long of a grind. People have hit destiny level50 in 2-3 days.

[Drona]

yep..

I have 16 Fate points now.

I ran Defenseless challenge around 100 times ( I bought tokens from AH) before they nerfed -and Rusted Blades more than that. (25k per run x 72 runs per ED)

Thankfully I only have one toon now - wizard - and with DD, it was easy - but a marathon.

I cant even imagine how people with a zillion alts gonna get them.

This was why we were so ****ed off when they nerfed challenges, but "one guy" who dint understand the process kept supporting Turbine.

[BruceTheHoon]

It only feels "sucky" if you have to be optimal 24/7. In running my monk through ED's I find that some destinies allow for more interesting gameplay despite not contributing significant power directly to my monk.

I have about 29 levels worth of destinies and not once have I ran any xp farming runs. So far the level ups have come as I have progressed for other objectives. Thus I am not burned out and am still enjoying the experience. Perhaps it's a more casual an approach but it shows that one can still make progress without having to feel like you need to burn out running the same subset of quests until your eyes bleed.

I don't feel like I have to be optimal 24/7 (my mains are a paladin and a ranger :eek:), but that Grand Master of Flowers phase sure was sucky with a full plate and a greataxe :)

I seem to be going at a slower pace than you, but I have no doubt that I will get those 11 fate points that I want, in a timely fashion.

[butcheredspirit]

I've played through several lives, I enjoy the process and coming up with new builds.

I always look forward to the destiny at the end of each life.
I have now capped 3 destinies, and it did not feel like a grind at all.

This life I am a FvS and I will try out exalted angel.
The destinies are a lot of fun, it doesn't have to be a grind.
Just enjoy the journey.

[SSFWEl]

So what are you asking for?

Give you the best possible twists for free?

The issue here, is your use of the word "Need". You do not "NEED" twists.



The correct word is "want". You want all the best twists without working for it.

You do not "need" them.

You can complete everything in this game without a single twist. They are additional bonuses for players who want to play through the long haul.

Being it will be another 1-6 years or longer before the next lvl cap increase. I think if anything, the current system is too limited if anything. Even casual players could max it out long before any further advancement is offered.

So no, stop asking to be given the maximum power for the minimum effort. You don't "NEED" it. You want it. You can get it, if you put the time in. Stop asking for nerfs.

And it's hardly that long of a grind. People have hit destiny level50 in 2-3 days.


Shade the more I read your posts, the less I understand why you play this game.
Play should be fun. I don't mind doing ToD or Shroud, or many of the epics a zillion times for loot because its fun for me each time. And you get stuff like tokens, scrolls, loot, tomes, items. NOT just XP.

When you level up a TR or a new character, you get XP by playing the game. Not by doing the same thing again and again. At least not till you decide to TR again.


1. No I don't need any twists. I don't need to play the game. I don't need to cap my character. I don't need to spend money on Turbine. I don't need to log in.

2. Where did I state: "I want everything without working for it"? Do you just make these things up?

3. You can complete everything without gear too. You can just pike. But if something is IN the game, yes, I WANT it. not for "minimum effort" but yes for "reasonable effort". I want to be able to enjoy what the game allows me to enjoy. According to you, it is reserved for those elites only.

4. You seriously can't see the difference between getting XP by playing the game like it was meant to, and getting 20k XP in 2 min by endlessly: "Get in, run, apply ichor, DD, ring bell, kill, DD, finish"? Seriously? That is fun? This is the game? This is what you mean "working for it"? Wow.

I had SO much FUN playing with my capped SD. It was FUN!! But I would like a bit MORE fun be getting some twists, and to do that I need to leave my SD.

5. Sure you can hit destiny level in 2-3 days. See above. Yea "working for it".

6. So according to what you say, what is the point of making so much XP, if "Even casual players could max it out long before any further advancement is offered". Ah, right, the point is to make someone run Chains 2 zillion times. And what do you expect those who HAVE maxed it in "2-3 days" to do, if all you think the game is about is getting xp that according to you is "working hard". I don't get it.


What do _I_ want?
I want to be able to cap my favorite ED, get some nice twists, and challenge myself by (OMG) actually playing the game. Doing stuff that is hard for me. Maybe soloing some stuff.
Getting the ED and twists themselves, are not the goal, you seem not to understand this. Like the guy yesterday who left in a huff because the game got to easy. So by by. Go play something else. But don't defend a stupid XP grind.

[BruceTheHoon]

[snip]

I think you've lost the point a bit, focusing on what people(person) might wanted to say instead of what's actually been said.
- Since everything can be completed without twists, twists are purely a matter of want not need.
- This is not comparable to something like no need to play/log in/get to 20, since one actually does need to play the game to complete every quest in it.
- Like others have pointed out, there is no need to run the same quest hundreds of times to get the fate points. It's completely up to the player to strike the balance between expediency and boredom.

Additionally, twists can be compared to past lives. The grind, though, is not nearly as bad as there. Twists are perks for dedicated people.

[Kiel]

I just got my 3rd twist unlocked and as a monk it is a huge power hit switching from GOF to another destiny simply because i lose all my aoe attacks,and when soloing there are a few places my hireling refuses to self heal(dun'robar matron room for one).That being said im kinda glad i havent been able to max everything because when i do i usually look for another game to progress in.

Currently have the 40 fort+2 saves,+6 to tactical feats,and the first tier healing from fury of the wild(which i plan to upgrade to injury from the same destiny).

[goodspeed]

Their will always be a grind. Because their has to be. For instance, say I could hit max level, get the weapons I wanted like an esos and alchemical and all that ****. Then have all my feats and destinies. v

And then turbine would say we will not increase the xp in anyway for levels, skills anything again. We'll release content from time to time.

Would ya play? I mean i'd be ok but when you already have it all, whats the point? And it's where alot of games see their downfall from boredom.

Sure ddo staved it off a bit through their tr process but you can only do it so many times before your wondering... good god why am I running this piece of .. wizard king quest again!!

Personally I wonder about what happens when their is nothing to attain. I think they'll probably open a new world where levels don't carry over and begin again.

[Darkfury]

Needing to run broken chains a zillion times, is NOT what DDO is supposed to be. I did this for a few hours untill my eyes bled.

You are right grinding is not what DDO should be about. But if you are going to grind, don't grind that one!

[grgurius]

Grinding out destinies is a choice, same as grinding out loot, or grinding out past lives. If you find it boring, don't do it, simple as that.

[Ancient]

I had SO much FUN playing with my capped SD. It was FUN!! But I would like a bit MORE fun be getting some twists, and to do that I need to leave my SD.

Not being able to earn ED experience while your favorite destiny is active is what I consider the worst part of the whole system.

[dterror]

You could always do as I plan to do (and a few others on here have mentioned in one way or another)...do 1 ED and TR. Get back to 20, start activate another ED. Might not be able to activate the specific ED that belongs to that class, but you should still have 2-3 other ED's available linked to the original ED.

Just running various epics for tokens and fragments, I'm now 1 bubble off capping Shiradi, and still need 3 more tokens for my next TR heart.

[Chai]

No need to do broken chains a zillion times. People can hit 25 and not have done 9/10s of the epic content in this game. At that point the repetition counter stops penalizing you and you can run whatever epic content you want for XP.

[djl]

This is not really a rant, and not anything new to those whom have been grinding out destiny XP, but I finally realized how much you really need to twist anything above tier I.

In the beginning I thought, wow this is cool, this twist thing. A great idea, the king of thing I LOVE in this game, true to the multiclassing concept. I was happy.
Then I realized that you need to grind out more XP to get fate points - OK, fair enough, I said to myself.
Then I starting figuring out what I want.
Then last night I calculated how many fate points I need, 11, (one tier III and 2 tier I) and my heart dropped. I do think they made it a bit too crazy. I mean, sure, you need to grind XP, but c'mon, THAT much? Even just 3 tier I twists, will take 18 levels in EDs. I need 33! Even if I skip the third twist and get just a single Tier III and a single Tier I, I still need 8 points. My gosh.


Needing to run broken chains a zillion times, is NOT what DDO is supposed to be. I did this for a few hours untill my eyes bled.
I love this game because to get most of your XP, you just need to play the game at your level, without too much repetition. But Turbine seems bent on changing this, don't know why. And all the while, you are not even enjoying the ED you WANT! :(

I am pretty disappointed.

11 fate points is nothing, especially if you decide to get a Tome of Fate. It seems like a lot at first, but it is possible to get over 10k exp a minute if you do the right stuff. The first three levels in a Destiny come quickly, so if all you want is 11 I recommend that you switch Destinies as soon as you unlock a new one.

[Viisari]

Meh, epic quests give stupid much xp, it's not really that much of a grind even if you get everything to lvl 5.

[samthedagger]

Twists are there for the same reason Completionist and raid gear is there: to give people with more time on their hands than they know what to do with something to do. If you got to level 25 and there was nothing left to do at that point, no one would continue playing. Either grind out the twists, or TR and run through the game again, or find something else that is fun for you. There are so many ways to play this game. You don't have to sit at cap and just grind twists if you don't want to. As many have pointed out, you don't need them. Being capped in one ED plus having a twist or two is pretty solid.

Edit: I'd also like to add that I am enjoying grinding out EDs right now because along the way I am getting a very good idea of how they all work and what benefits they grant. It is interesting and fun for me to do so. Because when I finally get my other toons into doing it, I will know exactly what I want for them already. Just looking at the ED tree doesn't really teach you much about the EDs or how they work. Playing around with them and learning what they do by using them is a great way to find out what they do.

[Capt_Ahab]

I've ground out all of the destinies, but the more I play, the less convinced I am that you gain that much extra power from high level twists. While the higher tier twists are very flashy, there are many very powerful T1 twists that are probably better.
With 3 T1 twists (6 points) you can get no fail fort, no fail will, and the ability to tumble through mobs.

[Karavek]

despite what some want to say, the fact is with the past trends seen, and current forum chatter on builds, EDs and twists have already become seen as standardized. It was a bad design to make them grindy because yes the hard core grinders got them fast, some already have them all etc. They shouldnt be the exception sadly but the norm, and hence why the need to make twists much easier to aquire is going to have to happen sooner rather then later or risk causing alienation of the very players they where desperately trying to attract to the lvl 20+ content.

At first I didnt mind the long haul I was envisioning to earn a higher tier twist slot. But as others have said, between the buggy new content, the reduction of challenge xp, and if your simply so sick of certain epic content you wont touch it, it leaves you feeling like the options have become so limited there is little reason left to play.

Constant character development is the reason we play, the second our character feels stagnant the game loses alot of its appeal.

[Viisari]

I've ground out all of the destinies, but the more I play, the less convinced I am that you gain that much extra power from high level twists. While the higher tier twists are very flashy, there are many very powerful T1 twists that are probably better.
With 3 T1 twists (6 points) you can get no fail fort, no fail will, and the ability to tumble through mobs.

Sense weakness says hello.

[HalfOrcBeautyQueen]

I've suggeted a few times in semi-casual players/static group threads that it's worth considering to no longer go with the level to 18, bank to 20, then TR approach. TR's have lost value, but are still relevant. For most average players however, it would probablly be more beneficial to level all the way now, farm a destiny or two out..then TR and do it over. I think once this sets in, we'll see more builds that usually would be designed to farm a life, now designed to farm a life + 2 destinies. It's just a smarter approach.

ShadowFlash


That's what I'm doing right now. Last life I didn't farm out the new epic content, only played until I got bored of my build (I was a druid) and then TR'd. I'll probably do the same this life, play out all the epic content n/h/e for EXP and then if I want to TR again go ahead.

Worst case scenario: I'll reach completionist just as I finish farming out all the fate points I want/need.

[Thrudh]

I'm not bothering with a lot of twists... because I don't play a game to grind.

I have five main characters, and two other guys I like to play sometimes...

I'm not going past 8 fate points, and most of them will be fine with 6 points.


Wizard got one Tier III and one Tier I (8 points)
Evasion tank got one Tier II, and two Tier I twists (8 points)
FvS will probably be fine with two Tier I twists (3 points) - maybe someday add in a third one
Barbarian got three Tier I twists (6 points)
Archer monk I haven't looked at yet... He's still 20th level... I'm little scared how expensive it may be to mix and match Grandmaster and Shiradi Champion effectively.


I do think it's funny when some guildy says "Ooh, I was looking at ddowiki, and I just HAVE to twist in <insert some awesome Tier IV ability>..." I always say "Good luck with that, you're going to have to max out every single destiny and buy the tome from the store to get that".

Just look at the benefits vs the cost. There are steep diminishing returns. 2-3 Tier I twists aren't too hard to get, and offer quite a bit. A Tier III twist may offer 30% more over a Tier I twist, but at 500% of the cost.

Just say no... Having one maxed out destiny with 2-3 Tier I twists gives you 90% of the power... Let the uber-elites get that last 10% by grinding until their eyes bleed... You don't have to.

[rimble]

It is indeed a TON of work, but I resent more that while I'm slaving away on that work I have to be in useless EDs. Really sours it all.

[Thrudh]

Not being able to earn ED experience while your favorite destiny is active is what I consider the worst part of the whole system.

I agree with that...

[Thrudh]

11 fate points is nothing, especially if you decide to get a Tome of Fate. It seems like a lot at first, but it is possible to get over 10k exp a minute if you do the right stuff. The first three levels in a Destiny come quickly, so if all you want is 11 I recommend that you switch Destinies as soon as you unlock a new one.

The OP knows about the poorly desgined quests that allow this...

It's a terrible grind that makes normal people want to quit the game.

[Thrudh]

Being capped in one ED plus having a twist or two is pretty solid.

This


Edit: I'd also like to add that I am enjoying grinding out EDs right now because along the way I am getting a very good idea of how they all work and what benefits they grant. It is interesting and fun for me to do so. Because when I finally get my other toons into doing it, I will know exactly what I want for them already. Just looking at the ED tree doesn't really teach you much about the EDs or how they work. Playing around with them and learning what they do by using them is a great way to find out what they do.

And this. My first time through wasn't too bad, because it was all new... By my fifth alt, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be enjoying leveling up a pointless destiny to get to the one I really want.

[djl]

Sense weakness says hello.

Yeah, Sense Weakness is the biggest reason to get 10+ fate points. It provides such a humongous DPS increase, especially for a class like a monk that can render mobs helpless with little effort. Every endgame melee class ought to have Sense Weakness. It's that good.

[djl]

The OP knows about the poorly desgined quests that allow this...

It's a terrible grind that makes normal people want to quit the game.

Only if you make it so. You do realize that you don't HAVE to grind out 4 million exp in a day, right? ;) Set smaller goals for yourself, and it will make the overall grind significantly less tiresome. For example, instead of setting out to "grind until my eyeballs bleed today" instead set a goal of "I will get one destiny to Level 5 and then do something more enjoyable." Even with goals like that, you will still end up maxing every Destiny in a little over a week if you follow that schedule.

Granted, if you have four or five toons it would still get extremely tedious by the end.

[Thrudh]

Only if you make it so. You do realize that you don't HAVE to grind out 4 million exp in a day, right? ;) Set smaller goals for yourself, and it will make the overall grind significantly less tiresome. For example, instead of setting out to "grind until my eyeballs bleed today" instead set a goal of "I will get one destiny to Level 5 and then do something more enjoyable." Even with goals like that, you will still end up maxing every Destiny in a little over a week if you follow that schedule.

Granted, if you have four or five toons it would still get extremely tedious by the end.

LOL... Getting 1 destiny to level 5 (1.5 million) requires about 75 runs of that quest.... That's not a small goal per day.

I'm not going to run that quest 75 times, and then "go do something more enjoyable". I'm going to stab myself in the eye around run 25-30.... I don't have 3 hours a day to grind one stupid quest and THEN still have time to go do something I enjoy.

And then you want me to do the same thing the next day. For 10 days straight. And then again for my other 4 characters.

I would seriously quit the game forever two days into that.

So dropping to "only" grinding 1.5 million a day is not really an option. That's not what I'd call "an easy goal" that gets you maxed in a little over a week.

Epic quests drop a lot of experience, and I'm thankful for that... I get about 200k a day playing normally. Not grinding. Just playing the game. I refuse to grind.

You wouldn't play the first level of Mario Brothers 75 times in a row would you? And then again the next day? And again the next day? And again...

After 6-8 fate points, you've probably got the EDs that match your character the best maxed out, and you've got 2-3 twists. After that, the grind gets ridiculous. Now, you're playing EDs you don't care about, and you have to grind out 500% more exp than before to get that next bump up in Twist power.

For some people it's worth it... That's good.... For most of us, it's not. And that's okay too... We both win... I get 90% of the power by playing normally; I can still manage epic elites with that kind of power... The powergamers get the last 10% by grinding until their eyeballs bleed, and they can feel they have optimized their character to the max possible. Win/Win.

[ckorik]

There really are only two issues with the ED grinding - one you have to be in destinies that you might not like - and the other the repetition penalty if you ran the quests too often on the way to 25.

It would be nice to have the repeat counter die after some time - and it would be nice to see a way to grind ed experience while being in your favorite destiny.

Even if it was -50% exp it'd be better than playing in destinies you don't like for points - that's my 2 cents :)

[Thrudh]

Even if it was -50% exp it'd be better than playing in destinies you don't like for points - that's my 2 cents :)

Heck, I'd take 25% exp or even 10% exp if I could stay in my chosen destiny.

[Eighnuss]

It is easier to get 18 million xp on a toon than to get a shard, seal, scroll, and base item for an eberron epic item.

I have personally accumulated upwards of 50 million XP in this game over 20 toons, while I have yet to ever craft an item from a shard, seal, scroll, and item. If you find a grind with guaranteed results difficult, wait until you play to ddo item lottery and get nothing, ever. Cringe as FvS loots the greataxe you seek, as a paladin loots the torc you seek, enjoy watching glove shards drop every run of deeps, for someone else. Take pleasure in winning rolls on items just to have chinese people give it to their comrades instead, so they can then offer you the item for 5 frds.

Complain about a 3-7 day grind with guaranteed results only after you grind for years for something that will be obsolete by the time you obtain it

[maddmatt70]

This is not really a rant, and not anything new to those whom have been grinding out destiny XP, but I finally realized how much you really need to twist anything above tier I.

In the beginning I thought, wow this is cool, this twist thing. A great idea, the king of thing I LOVE in this game, true to the multiclassing concept. I was happy.
Then I realized that you need to grind out more XP to get fate points - OK, fair enough, I said to myself.
Then I starting figuring out what I want.
Then last night I calculated how many fate points I need, 11, (one tier III and 2 tier I) and my heart dropped. I do think they made it a bit too crazy. I mean, sure, you need to grind XP, but c'mon, THAT much? Even just 3 tier I twists, will take 18 levels in EDs. I need 33! Even if I skip the third twist and get just a single Tier III and a single Tier I, I still need 8 points. My gosh.


Needing to run broken chains a zillion times, is NOT what DDO is supposed to be. I did this for a few hours untill my eyes bled.
I love this game because to get most of your XP, you just need to play the game at your level, without too much repetition. But Turbine seems bent on changing this, don't know why. And all the while, you are not even enjoying the ED you WANT! :(

I am pretty disappointed.

The reality is you do not need to do any epic levels or destinies to complete every quest on epic elite. I know I completed every single quest in the update 14 chain on 7 different characters in the level 20-22 prior to having got very far in destinies or having twists or epic levels or anything. Nobody forces anybody to farm the same quest over and over. The people that farm quests over and over must find it fun at some poin and those that do not well do not.

[Alaunra2010]

This is not really a rant, and not anything new to those whom have been grinding out destiny XP, but I finally realized how much you really need to twist anything above tier I.

Okay sorry everyone but I missed the actual number we're talking about. SSFWEl, could you post up what you've calculated? I'm just now starting to get into twists and I really have no idea how much this is going to cost me in terms of grind.

[countfitz]

It's MUCH easier to get 3 twists by simply not capping anything at all, then have fun with them as you see fit. At least that's what I did. I only recently capped my first destiny, but had all my twists done the first week U14 came out by just going from destiny to destiny once I could. The XP requirments to get to 2, 3, or 4 are all very low compared to the final level.

[PNellesen]

As many have pointed out, you don't need them. Being capped in one ED plus having a twist or two is pretty solid.

Not disagreeing, but it would make it a lot easier if you could pick ANY Destiny to get a Twist from at any time. For instance, trying to go from Exalted Angel to Magister or Draconic. Ugh. Why they didn't put a link from the Divine Sphere to the Arcane is beyond me - why do I need to go through 4 other destinies to get to Magister or Draconic from Exalted Angel? Exalted Angel is the CASTER divine destiny, it seems it has much more synergy with the Acane destinies than the "specialist" destinies or Unyielding Sentinel (which is "closer" to those two than Exalted Angel is). Granted, you don't have to go through an ENTIRE destiny to get to the next one, but still... the way they have the connections for some of these doesn't make much sense at all.

[dterror]

It is indeed a TON of work, but I resent more that while I'm slaving away on that work I have to be in useless EDs. Really sours it all.

No different than trying to finish off a completionist. Ton of work and you have to slave away in useless classes....or waste both time and money on +5 LR's

[Ralmeth]

It is indeed a TON of work, but I resent more that while I'm slaving away on that work I have to be in useless EDs. Really sours it all.

/Agreed! I'm a long time, but casual player. I have to say that working on or using your primary destiny is very cool. The powers you are granted are awesome! I also don't mind having to earn XP in order to advance my character...That is just a part of D&D. However I think it was a big mistake in the epic destiny system that in order to continue to advance your character (i.e. work on twists), or change to a different primary, that you have to completely leave your primary destiny. I'll give two examples:

1) I maxed out Unyielding Sentinal on my Paladin, and rather than waste any XP I immediately swapped to Grandmaster of Flowers. Since that time I've really not been terribly excited about playing my character. The abilities I gain in Grandmaster don't match well with my character, and I really miss the extra DPS, Defenses, LoH, etc from Unyielding Sentinel. As a result, I've not been terribly excited about playing and It's been a really long slog to level up.

2) A close guildie of mine, also a casual player, uses a Tempest Ranger as a main. He's been leveling up in Fury of the Wild. At some point he thought it would be fun to move over to the Rogue ED, but when he switched to Shiradi and lost everything he'd been working on up to that point in Fury of the Wild, he lost interest and went back to Fury.

I would think a better system would be to somehow combine some abilities from your primary ED with your active ED. For example, perhaps you could spend your epic destiny points from either tree. Of course there would have to be some limitations to not make it too powerful. You also should have to train your active destiny to a certain extent. But perhaps the system could be something like:
-You designate a primary destiny. When you change to another destiny...
-At least half of your ED points have to be from your active ED, but the other half you can spend from your primary. When you change to your new destiny, your ED points are reset back to 0, but as you level up you can pick and choose abilities from both destinies.
-You can have your choice of which passive ability you want at each level (active or primary), but at least half of these need to from your active. This way you could retain 1-2 passive abilities from your primary ED
-Limit a max level of 3 or 4 for the ED abilities and passive abilities from your primary.

In any event, the point is to make game-play a bit more fun while you are working on other destinies, and this might open up some interesting multi-classing options of EDs.

[Vormaerin]

People keep posting that DDO is a grindy game. I suppose it is, compared to a single player RPG or something. Its not grindy at all within the context of MMO games.

Yes, you can *make* the game a grind if you want. I see lots of posts about people running quests a bazillion times and just shake my head. If you aren't having fun playing a quest, why are you doing it?

I'm probably in the minority, but I like experimenting. So it doesn't really bother me to play through "suboptimal" EDs. I like trying to find things that will work. Even with GMOF, there are abilities you can use while not centered.

A lot of what people say is "necessary" just isn't so. If you'd rather grind one quest at 10k xp/minute or whatever the approved rate is rather than vary your playing experience, that's fine. But don't expect a lot of sympathy about your "grind."

[die]

/signed

[Rawel_San]

I have already posted my take on this a few pages back, but I would like to say again what I said there.

Unless you intend to bench a character once he's capped, you are getting that XP ANYHOW. I know you might have
to be in a destiny that's not perfect but considering that pretty much all of the EH content in the game can
be soloed by a lvl 20 char much less a lvl 25 char with at least one twist (probably 2) it's really a let less of an
issue then people make it out to be.

The progression is also extremely steady. It's not like farming out a seal or litany where you do 40 runs and
are no closer to getting it then you were at the beginning.

Every time you complete a quest you get xp. It's that easy. Don't rush and you won't have to grind.

Just my 2 copper,
Rawel

[Gremmlynn]

Its a common mistake that DDO is not *grindy*, the levelup of a first life character with all the xp candy bonuses grants this sense. Once you learn about reincarnation, past life stacking, and epic/raid gear, its pretty much as grindy as other MMOs out there. People usually quit at either the point they realise they need to *work* the game to get better at it, or when they already grinded out stuff for their character, and they got utterly exhausted.

The game is still 1-20 on a freshling, after that, its work. :)This game is only as grindy as the player makes it. I've known about reincarnation and past life stacking for as long as it's been around and have yet to find a logical reason to do that much "work" in the game for that little advantage. Now I see twists of fate as a similar, yet much better designed, mechanic. Something to be ignored or not at the discretion of the player. Though their design allows them to be mostly ignored and worked on at one's leisure, unlike the all or nothing TR mechanic.

[Gremmlynn]

Shade the more I read your posts, the less I understand why you play this game.
Play should be fun. I don't mind doing ToD or Shroud, or many of the epics a zillion times for loot because its fun for me each time. And you get stuff like tokens, scrolls, loot, tomes, items. NOT just XP.

When you level up a TR or a new character, you get XP by playing the game. Not by doing the same thing again and again. At least not till you decide to TR again.


1. No I don't need any twists. I don't need to play the game. I don't need to cap my character. I don't need to spend money on Turbine. I don't need to log in.

2. Where did I state: "I want everything without working for it"? Do you just make these things up?

3. You can complete everything without gear too. You can just pike. But if something is IN the game, yes, I WANT it. not for "minimum effort" but yes for "reasonable effort". I want to be able to enjoy what the game allows me to enjoy. According to you, it is reserved for those elites only.

4. You seriously can't see the difference between getting XP by playing the game like it was meant to, and getting 20k XP in 2 min by endlessly: "Get in, run, apply ichor, DD, ring bell, kill, DD, finish"? Seriously? That is fun? This is the game? This is what you mean "working for it"? Wow.

I had SO much FUN playing with my capped SD. It was FUN!! But I would like a bit MORE fun be getting some twists, and to do that I need to leave my SD.

5. Sure you can hit destiny level in 2-3 days. See above. Yea "working for it".

6. So according to what you say, what is the point of making so much XP, if "Even casual players could max it out long before any further advancement is offered". Ah, right, the point is to make someone run Chains 2 zillion times. And what do you expect those who HAVE maxed it in "2-3 days" to do, if all you think the game is about is getting xp that according to you is "working hard". I don't get it.


What do _I_ want?
I want to be able to cap my favorite ED, get some nice twists, and challenge myself by (OMG) actually playing the game. Doing stuff that is hard for me. Maybe soloing some stuff.
Getting the ED and twists themselves, are not the goal, you seem not to understand this. Like the guy yesterday who left in a huff because the game got to easy. So by by. Go play something else. But don't defend a stupid XP grind.Strange, I have no problem understanding why he might play the game and what he seems to mean in his post. To me he is basically saying "go ahead and play the game, the twists aren't necessary to do all those things you would rather be doing than grinding them and they'll also come from doing just that if you don't mind putting your main destiny aside when not needed". The only person who grinds out a quest 2 zillion times is the person who chooses to do so in order to get those xp they feel they "need" in order to get those twists the "need" in order to have fun playing a game they likely will soon get bored of as they are no longer advancing doing all those things they want to do.

So stop thinking about working hard and just get your twists while doing those things you want to do.

[Gremmlynn]

LOL... Getting 1 destiny to level 5 (1.5 million) requires about 75 runs of that quest.... That's not a small goal per day.

I'm not going to run that quest 75 times, and then "go do something more enjoyable". I'm going to stab myself in the eye around run 25-30.... I don't have 3 hours a day to grind one stupid quest and THEN still have time to go do something I enjoy.

And then you want me to do the same thing the next day. For 10 days straight. And then again for my other 4 characters.

I would seriously quit the game forever two days into that.

So dropping to "only" grinding 1.5 million a day is not really an option. That's not what I'd call "an easy goal" that gets you maxed in a little over a week.

Epic quests drop a lot of experience, and I'm thankful for that... I get about 200k a day playing normally. Not grinding. Just playing the game. I refuse to grind.

You wouldn't play the first level of Mario Brothers 75 times in a row would you? And then again the next day? And again the next day? And again...

After 6-8 fate points, you've probably got the EDs that match your character the best maxed out, and you've got 2-3 twists. After that, the grind gets ridiculous. Now, you're playing EDs you don't care about, and you have to grind out 500% more exp than before to get that next bump up in Twist power.

For some people it's worth it... That's good.... For most of us, it's not. And that's okay too... We both win... I get 90% of the power by playing normally; I can still manage epic elites with that kind of power... The powergamers get the last 10% by grinding until their eyeballs bleed, and they can feel they have optimized their character to the max possible. Win/Win.Strange how big a difference the expectations of various players can have. Personally my goals right now, with 4 level 20-21 characters is to finish a destiny on each while trying out that TR thing and getting back up to epic levels with one...over the next year or so.

Seems reasonable enough to me to do this without extreme grinding and it wouldn't surprise me get more than that done in that timeline.

[Nagantor]

Yay, it's a game - go and have fun with it. You can't win ddo, there's nothing to call a real end in an expanding game.

What most people do is to set goals and go to achieve them. Some of them - like getting multiple twists - are designed to be long roads to keep you in game. Their way to earn a lot of money from you is to keep you in for a long time and do it in small "Money over Time" debuffs that don't hurt a lot. They're not even forcing you with subscriptions, they just tempt you into doing it.

But coming back on track: ED with full amount of twists is like getting Completionist and huge amount of passive past lifes. Only a ton easier to achieve. If you combine them with each other, it becomes a breeze.

You want to reach the ultimate power for a character - expect the amount of work to be huge.
You want to be strong enough to participate (and contribute fine) in all content *except* for the very top end - expect the required playtime to be ok.