20th List:Caught in the Web.

[Rogann]

20th
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j376/rogann1/20thlist2.png

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j376/rogann1/20thlist1.png

40th
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j376/rogann1/40thlist1.png

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j376/rogann1/40thlist2.png

Its good to finally be done with this raid. I couldn't wait the 3 days per run....Seems so old. So I zerged 40 comps.

Ran a total of 34 Caught in the webs in 9 days.(I had 6 completions prior to raid timer bypass launching).

Basically the only thing that caught my eye was the Celestia. With the conclusion of no +4/5 tomes in the list I strived to get 2 Celestia's.

I hope the lists will put insight into whether you wish for 20 completions or not.

[NexEverto]

Kinda disappointed theres no +5 tome. Or even a +4 for that matter since its a lv24 raid.

No Commendation of Heroism either...

Considering... You know...


You are correct. They are all supposed to require three. We only became aware of the bug with this yesterday. It is being added to the next version of the Known Issues List, and we are currently planning to delay fixing it until Update 16 (which is a ways off), to give people time to upgrade any current weapons they have, or acquire before then, at the present upgrade cost.

[oweieie]

Farmed out 14 completions in 2 days. Was hoping for a +4 tome.

Turbine thanks you for your $20.

[Cetus]

disgusting...

Considering TOD drops +4 tomes...that list BETTER have had +5's in that list.

[Juduss]

I will qualify the question I'm about to ask by saying I have not yet once tried to run the raid. But after all the complaints I've read about this raids issues (bad mechanics, bugs, etc.), and you log 14 completions in 48 hours!? Holly expletive man, will you kindly post your plan for a no-fail run? Thanx in advance!

[Emili]

I've 'bout 50 citw runs cross five characters... not sure why we run it, cept for guild and friends. Typically we run it on hard... EE be brutal but at least fun.

As for +4 tomes go do EE The Portal Opens, can actually pull them back to back (chest after chest), Most my +4's however were from eVoN6 and ToD (prior)... but if +4's were what anyone be looking for I'd tell them to farm EE The Portal Opens now... I got three in such a short timespan and with five chests it tells me so.

Commedations? easy to aquire ... I probably have more than I'd ever use now.

[Rogann]

I will qualify the question I'm about to ask by saying I have not yet once tried to run the raid. But after all the complaints I've read about this raids issues (bad mechanics, bugs, etc.), and you log 14 completions in 48 hours!? Holly expletive man, will you kindly post your plan for a no-fail run? Thanx in advance!

Most if all bugs were fixed. However theres 2 main spots where Ana gets stuck. One is minor where you just gotta go back and get her. Where one is major and have to wait for a gm(Its at the part of the first REAL fight with approx 4-5 misstresses).

The raid is very easy. Endfight might be tough for some. Here's the best tip:Get 1 person to aggro everything up top. While their doing that get everyone to stay at the platform before the end fight. They will kill everything down there and also the things the person brought. Destroy orb with Ana then kill Lloth. Kill all portal keepers then loot.

Also run it on EN. EH/EE are considerably harder.

Not the most informative tip but im rather tired.

[lhidda]

+5 tomes exist?

[Rogann]

Turbine thanks you for your $20.

Only used 14 bypasses as I already had 6 completions before. So 14 bypasses is about 23$. However I bought 40+ raid timer bypasses so that's about 60$. Gotta love supporting the game you love?

[Rogann]

+5 tomes exist?

Well considering lv 20 raids drop +4's. Also lv 23 quests drop +4 tomes. Why cant a lv 24 endgame raid drop +5's?

[Shade]

7 rewards..


blergh.

The least number of rewards from the 20th list of the argueably the longest raid.

..............:confused::confused:

[Ausdoerrt]

Kinda sucks about the tomes, though 1 20th comp doesn't prove it doesn't exist. IIRC, all raids other than Shroud don't guarantee tomes on the 20th. Wouldn't be surprised to find out it's not on the list though.

Off-topic: so much for all the trolls screaming "no one will ever drop so much cash just to complete a raid 20 times in 2 days".

[Voldomar]

Only used 14 bypasses as I already had 6 completions before. So 14 bypasses is about 23$. However I bought 40+ raid timer bypasses so that's about 60$. Gotta love supporting the game you love?

Indeed. That's why I'm ( still ) vip.

But... if someone kicks me in the nuts and offers to sell me painkillers, I won't buy them; otherwise that guy could soon realize that kicking me again and again is profitable.
That's how I feel about epic destiny tree/tome of fate and Citw drop rates/raid timer bypass

[Antiguo]

Pay2win, meh

[Noopleh]

Been stuck at 1 commendation needed for my armor for about 10 completion now.. I was hoping to get the last I needed from end rewards but nope. Thanks for the screenies tho, guess the 20th won't help me.

[Demaril]

any chance the list was less favourable due to ransack? that many runs in a short time after all

[Kalevor]

i've done serveral tod 20th completions and least of the half 20listcompletion don't drop it any +4 tome so... better luck next time maybe...

[PNellesen]

Serious question to the divines out there who have run this raid: what loot is there to be had that you find useful, or that would make it worth running 20 times to possibly get as an end reward? Looking at the wiki, the "Twilight" quarterstaff seems to be the only thing a caster divine would be interested in, and that appears to be designed primarily for arcanes.

[oweieie]

Serious question to the divines out there who have run this raid: what loot is there to be had that you find useful, or that would make it worth running 20 times to possibly get as an end reward? Looking at the wiki, the "Twilight" quarterstaff seems to be the only thing a caster divine would be interested in, and that appears to be designed primarily for arcanes.

Staff is hardly all that good for arcane who can get 2 random gen scepters that end up being better in most cases, for divine I doubt it would be much of a consideration. But divine aren't alone, pretty much no one gets anything worthwhile from this raid.

[BigSlugger]

They're really not giving enough reason to run this raid.

[maddmatt70]

7 rewards..


blergh.

The least number of rewards from the 20th list of the argueably the longest raid.

..............:confused::confused:

Its a 50% reward list as in 50% of the raid weapons/items drop in the 20th run which was to be expected. The only raids really with better % drop rates are Vision of Destruction and Hound which have about 80% drop rates. The reward list is correct in my opinion, but what is not correct is the horrendous drop rate on the raid on normal and hard difficulties and the fact it takes so long to complete epic elite.

[Cyr]

That does not preclude +4/+5 tomes from being a possibility.

That said, that list is lame sauce.

[maddmatt70]

I've 'bout 50 citw runs cross five characters... not sure why we run it, cept for guild and friends. Typically we run it on hard... EE be brutal but at least fun.

As for +4 tomes go do EE The Portal Opens, can actually pull them back to back (chest after chest), Most my +4's however were from eVoN6 and ToD (prior)... but if +4's were what anyone be looking for I'd tell them to farm EE The Portal Opens now... I got three in such a short timespan and with five chests it tells me so.

Commedations? easy to aquire ... I probably have more than I'd ever use now.


Because the gear is really good for many types of characters - not all characters mind you which is why I have to solo heal fast normal runs on two of my bards on a regular basis. The incentive to run a second 20 is obviously lacking especially with the raid loot changes so going to push to 20 and hope they come out with a new raid by update 16.

[Ape_Man]

This begs the question . . . is it still pay-2-win if you don't . . . . "win?"

[JasonJi72]

I want the bow lol. :)

Perhaps +5 tomes have not been put in yet? Has anyone seen one drop?

[Qezuzu]

But divine aren't alone, pretty much no one gets anything worthwhile from this raid.

Actually, Mornh is pretty much the best weapon for TWFers, and Celestia completely obliterates any mob with Shield of Condemnation procs. Balizarde, like Mornh, is a one-handed eSoS, but doesn't require the Dreadnought stuff. Pinion outranks the epic Thornlord, Sireth can crit 40% of the time with Dreadnought, and Needle is also very good. And they're all required for the Planar Conflux sets.

I think people underestimate how powerful expanded crit and base damage are. But a lot of the weapons should be improved to make them useful, such as Tinah, Cleaver, Breach, and Agony.

[Shade]

Its a 50% reward list as in 50% of the raid weapons/items drop in the 20th run which was to be expected. The only raids really with better % drop rates are Vision of Destruction and Hound which have about 80% drop rates. The reward list is correct in my opinion, but what is not correct is the horrendous drop rate on the raid on normal and hard difficulties and the fact it takes so long to complete epic elite.

Incorrect. And you'll telling the guy who wrote the guide on this subject:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Raid_loot_mechanic

Lolthraid has 13 weapons (not far off from total drops in other raids, infact tied with abbot) and I'd bet the +4 tomes that drop there are on the list, at a very low rate like mostly, no different then the chest table itself. So 19 choices. Possibly 20 is commendations are in there too.

= 36% of the list. Lower if commendations are in.

By far the lowest percentage of any raid bar ToD (which obviously is poor due to its somewhat unique mechanic of having nearly double the amount of raidloot, tho its chest drop rate is FAR higher, which makes up for it somewhat).

The devs originally stated the intention for the 20th rewards was to offer quote "a little over half of the list". From the very star that was untrue (plane of night was about 48%, which dropped later when they added the ruenarm). Most raids of that era are in the 42-46% range, a little under half. Citw is about a THIRD of the list. It's a significant difference.

[Emili]

Because the gear is really good for many types of characters - not all characters mind you which is why I have to solo heal fast normal runs on two of my bards on a regular basis. The incentive to run a second 20 is obviously lacking especially with the raid loot changes so going to push to 20 and hope they come out with a new raid by update 16.

Oh, don't mind me... am just in a strange mood lately, too much chasin' an such spinnin' circles. Aye, the loot is good for many characters, an' seem to get drops well enough, have three heroic coms on three characters an' placed five weapons up for roll so far, I suppose is just I've only coms to show myself? But what have ya, is how things are...figured I run for the 20ths on the toons which want stuff an' play support between with the rest is all...

[oweieie]

I think people underestimate how powerful expanded crit and base damage are. But a lot of the weapons should be improved to make them useful, such as Tinah, Cleaver, Breach, and Agony.

I think people overestimate how powerful expanded crit is, especially with the last two expansions heavily featuring plants and zombies. Mornh is no where close to being a full time weapon, claiming it's the best a TWF can get is flat out wrong. On decent fort mobs it is significantly behind random gen loot. For the raid it comes from it's pretty much ****. On top of that it requires the blunt crit feat which is popular for monks but not many others.

[EvilI]

But... if someone kicks me in the nuts and offers to sell me painkillers, I won't buy them; otherwise that guy could soon realize that kicking me again and again is profitable.
That's how I feel about epic destiny tree/tome of fate and Citw drop rates/raid timer bypass

I don't really have anything to say, except I think everyone should read this again and give it a good pondering.

[Ape_Man]

I think people overestimate how powerful expanded crit is, especially with the last two expansions heavily featuring plants and zombies. Mornh is no where close to being a full time weapon, claiming it's the best a TWF can get is flat out wrong. On decent fort mobs it is significantly behind random gen loot. For the raid it comes from it's pretty much ****. On top of that it requires the blunt crit feat which is popular for monks but not many others.

That rapier is still sexy as hell and doesn't require any feats.

Most of what we fight now at end-game doesn't have any noticeable DR.

[maddmatt70]

Incorrect. And you'll telling the guy who wrote the guide on this subject:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Raid_loot_mechanic

Lolthraid has 13 weapons (not far off from total drops in other raids, infact tied with abbot) and I'd bet the +4 tomes that drop there are on the list, at a very low rate like mostly, no different then the chest table itself. So 19 choices. Possibly 20 is commendations are in there too.

= 36% of the list. Lower if commendations are in.

By far the lowest percentage of any raid bar ToD (which obviously is poor due to its somewhat unique mechanic of having nearly double the amount of raidloot, tho its chest drop rate is FAR higher, which makes up for it somewhat).

The devs originally stated the intention for the 20th rewards was to offer quote "a little over half of the list". From the very star that was untrue (plane of night was about 48%, which dropped later when they added the ruenarm). Most raids of that era are in the 42-46% range, a little under half. Citw is about a THIRD of the list. It's a significant difference.

First, no proof of tomes in the reward list and second the way tome drops work is you have a % chance for a tome to drop and then if a tome does drop the raid rolls in a 1/6 chance for a particular type of tome. What this means is for the raid if it does drop tomes on the end list you would have 14 types of loot i.e. the thirteen raid weapon and 1 tome chance for each roll. If the tome chance comes up then the game rolls again to decide what type of tome (strength, intelligence, wisdom, constitution, dexterity, charisma) would drop. So yes 50% chance to get the raid weapon you want which corresponds to most raids in game.

[Ausdoerrt]

This begs the question . . . is it still pay-2-win if you don't . . . . "win?"

Technically, it is, because "p2w" has evolved into a colloquial term that doesn't necessarily mean the sum of its parts. Kinda like red panda that isn't a panda, or grey wolf that isn't grey.

[Shmuel]

All in all, if we do find it has a tiny drop rate of +5 tomes, similar to the way TOD drops +4s, then all they really need to do is add the commendations and it is fine. Ideally, I'd like to see a stack of 3 heroics, and have them be static for EVERY 20ths list, but 1 guaranteed or 3 of them as a 50/50 would be fine. As it is now, no reason to run this raid once you have the weapon you want. None. Turbine I thought the goal was to keep us grinding. In order to do that there needs to be something to grind for...

[djl]

7 rewards..


blergh.

The least number of rewards from the 20th list of the argueably the longest raid.

..............:confused::confused:

With some of the lowest drop rates of any raid, to boot. :\

[byzantinebob]

That trophy is pretty impressive.

[countfitz]

Technically, it is, because "p2w" has evolved into a colloquial term that doesn't necessarily mean the sum of its parts. Kinda like red panda that isn't a panda, or grey wolf that isn't grey.

Actually red pandas are pandas, the black and white ones aren't, they're bears.

Scientists did genetic testing of them in the late 90s.

[Rogann]

Perhaps +5 tomes have not been put in yet? Has anyone seen one drop?

I doubt they were put in. However its kinda sad you don't get a dedicated +4 tome for 20th. I mean its a lv 24 raid...

[djl]

It's disappointing you don't get heroic coms for your 20th list, either.

...Considering in U16 all weapon upgrades will require three of them. All this **** is BTC, and for most classes there is only one item in this raid that is of any use to them. So having a 20th list full of weapons that are worthless to your class, without any tomes or Coms, is very disheartening.


Look mom, I got 20 completions in the longest, buggiest raid in the game and all I got to show for it was some renown! Woohoo!

[die]

Back in the day you were not guaranteed a +3 tome on a reaver 20th, I dont know why some folks believe you should get a tome on any 20th really other than shroud. thats just my 2 cents i do see alot of nice named items there on that list tho

[djl]

Back in the day you were not guaranteed a +3 tome on a reaver 20th, I dont know why some folks believe you should get a tome on any 20th really other than shroud. thats just my 2 cents i do see alot of nice named items there on that list tho

7 items and renown. Including Heroic Commendations, there are 14 items total in the raid that you can get. That's half of the available items, for a raid that requires a great amount of coordination and time to complete. Not all that impressive, really, especially considering that each item is designed for a specific build so there is really only one item that anyone is looking for from the raid. It would have been really nice if they replaced the Renown slot with Heroic Commendations.

[oweieie]

I wish the raid would drop 10 commendations and every weapon every run so I didn't have to run it more than once per character. It's bloody awful. It's not even a raid, it's just a really bad quest for 12 people.

[djl]

I wish the raid would drop 10 commendations and every weapon every run so I didn't have to run it more than once per character. It's bloody awful. It's not even a raid, it's just a really bad quest for 12 people.

I wouldn't go that far. With a good group the raid is enjoyable. However, I do wish the drop rates were a little better than they are. Having six chests, with 12 people, and only seeing one heroic commedation and NO named loot is just stupid.

Unless changes are made, I do unfortunately see this raid becoming the next Titan in a couple months, when it is no longer the "newest" thing to do. The long flagging requirements (longest of any raid in the game, by far), exceptionally poor drop rates, time it takes to complete the raid, and the fact that you have to run almost every goddamn quest in Forgotten Realms on Epic Elite in addition to the horrible ES challenges to get full usage out of the raid rewards is altogether too much. Right now, the raid is run often but after several months most people will have gotten what they wanted from the raid (especially with the bypass timers available), so when the U16 raid comes out I see Web being almost completely abandoned.

I really, really wish they would allow you to use the shop for Planar Conflux effects at 250 favor. Considering you can only have ONE of the stupid pet and it's BOUND TO CHARACTER, this is only fair.

[Hendrik]

I wouldn't go that far. With a good group the raid is enjoyable. However, I do wish the drop rates were a little better than they are. Having six chests, with 12 people, and only seeing one heroic commedation and NO named loot is just stupid.

I would like to see Commendations drop like how ToD Trophies drop; more of them on harder difficulties.

N=1
H=2,3
E=3,4

Incentive for me to run it on more then just Hard.

[maddmatt70]

7 items and renown. Including Heroic Commendations, there are 14 items total in the raid that you can get. That's half of the available items, for a raid that requires a great amount of coordination and time to complete. Not all that impressive, really, especially considering that each item is designed for a specific build so there is really only one item that anyone is looking for from the raid. It would have been really nice if they replaced the Renown slot with Heroic Commendations.

This just is not true. Can complete the raid in 30 minutes time with very little coordination on normal. Yesterday second run started forming 8:15 est and had completed raid and dropped group by 9:00 est and spent about 30 min in quest. We are working on getting this down further, but estimate will be able to do 30 min total including formation time eventually. Normal is solo healable and likely does not require a healer at all with self sufficient groups.

I am looking for lots of different items on my characters (rapier, short sword, Morn Hammer, Longbow, Caster Staff). I do not have an artificer otherwise would try to get the xbow and do not have a q-staff melee or would go for q-staff. The staff is a piercing weapon which is also interesting. The wraps could be nice for a monk if we fight odd dr mobs/bosses such as a lawful good boss with DR/evil or the like.

The drop rate on heroic commendations is greater then the drop rate on weapons, but I would not mind an option on the 20th reward list for the comnendations especially after update 16 when the devs require all weapons to be upgraded with three comnendations.

[Hendrik]

I wish the raid would drop 10 commendations and every weapon every run so I didn't have to run it more than once per character. It's bloody awful. It's not even a raid, it's just a really bad quest for 12 people.

And when I log in I was instantly L25 with all EDs, Quests would auto complete just by me walking into them, L30 Chests appear at my feet, and I would be crowned King of DDO.

Your game experience mimics the company you keep, guess that is why I enjoy Web and you do not.

:D

[Havok.cry]

For those wondering who would want any of those weapons: I do. My acrobat wants the quarterstaff, and my archer wants the bow. My sorc wants the planar confuence of erudition.

[ThePrisoner]

That list actually got me excited about running the raid more. Or uh - I mean - "doom"?

[Rogann]

That list actually got me excited about running the raid more. Or uh - I mean - "doom"?

I'm actually scared now. Im doing another 20th for a second Celestia. With only 50% of the items dropping Im pretty sure ill get skunked. Then my guildies will laugh at me for wasting another 35$.

[mystafyi]

Then my guildies will laugh at me for wasting another 35$.

im laughing at you right now.

[Rogann]

Well. It took 7 days to get another 20 runs(40th) The screenshots are in the main thread. Would have been faster but real life seems a bit more important :P

[Credinus]

Is it just me, or did you get the same items on both lists with the exception of having Tinah on the first list and Breach on the second? :\



I wonder if those others ones are static and you really one have 1 chance at any of the other items on the 20th lists... I really feel like these lists should be bug reported under the claim that it's assumed "not WAI."

[Loki98]

Well I can unhappily report that bound to character +4 tomes drop from Caught in the Web 20th reward list. Seems silly considering you can get unbound ones from the flagging quests and makes it more difficult to acquire the item you are pursuing.

[jeremyt]

Staff is hardly all that good for arcane who can get 2 random gen scepters that end up being better in most cases, for divine I doubt it would be much of a consideration. But divine aren't alone, pretty much no one gets anything worthwhile from this raid.

actually with spell imp 21, potency 80, impulse, evo and ench forc and the all important for divines greater arcane lore the staff feels like the standout performer (maybe the single only high performing weapon) of the raid for standard high performance toons. Add in the universal stacking spell power from trinket (giving staff/trink combo that absolute highest possible universal spell power with 116 and highest single possible spell power avail with impulse totalling 156 spell power, highest SP bonus in game, spell pen 9, insightful wis 3 or wis 8...psh this stick is tailor made for a DC casting divine. all its missing is necro focus. so i guess a trink/gog will be req to pair up with it, but its bringing all sorts off offensive casting beef for any divine caster type.

recap: thats blade barriers with 156 spell power and greater arcane lore, +3 evo DC and wisdom bumps giving even more DC bumps.

[Hendrik]

Well. It took 7 days to get another 20 runs(40th) The screenshots are in the main thread. Would have been faster but real life seems a bit more important :P

Grads Gimp.

I have enjoyed each and every run I have had the pleasure to be part of!

Looking forward to more.

:cool:

[oweieie]

recap: thats blade barriers with 156 spell power and greater arcane lore, +3 evo DC and wisdom bumps giving even more DC bumps.

Or you can get superior lore off alchemical with 21 implement and get a 1-hander with 120 impulse. 120 impulse, greater evoc focus, efficient maximize 1 are not at all hard to get off the AH.

Maybe one day, far into the future Turbine will fix kinetic lore and you can get it all in 1 stick without having to get alchemical laceration and it's gimped out 90 spell power.

[Arkat]

Well. It took 7 days to get another 20 runs(40th) The screenshots are in the main thread. Would have been faster but real life seems a bit more important :P

Rogann,

Can you please do some basic testing and let us know whether these break DR on monsters that require X material type + Good?

The question is whether the fact Celestia's material type is "Light" instead of "Admantine," "Cold Iron," "Silver," etc. allows it to bypass DR of creatures that normally require it?

A good test would be on Arratreikos in Shroud (Silver + Good) and the Lord of Blades (Adamantine + Good).

Thanks.

[Gleep_Wurp]

Turbine thanks you for your $20.

you said it^^ .all turbine cares about is the coin...not quality.

[Heladron]

Technically, it is, because "p2w" has evolved into a colloquial term that doesn't necessarily mean the sum of its parts. Kinda like red panda that isn't a panda, or grey wolf that isn't grey.

This is not an attempt to argue with the poster of the comment so much as using the quote as a segue to discuss Pay-to-Win.

This seems analogous to the front of the line passes at Amusement Parks.

To me there is a distinction between winning and bypassing a wait. I guess if one distorts the definition of winning to mean accomplishing a set goal then anything can be winning. Getting up out of bed can be winning. Whatever floats your boat right?

I don't think DDO really has a concept of winning save for Completionist, which I think was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek win.

In my mind this is pay to change constraints. There is still effort involved in getting to the end of the quest and you have not paid for guaranteed victory (winning). You have paid for the ability to attempt a completion of a quest that has an artificial time barrier between each attempt that has ended in success.

Just so that I have something to stay on the topic of the original post. The end reward list looked cool. And having cool gear is fun. It seems like purchasing raid timer bypasses can be good if one values having cool gear before the next ice age.

Congratulations, OP, on your 20 completions.

[Ausdoerrt]

This is not an attempt to argue with the poster of the comment so much as using the quote as a segue to discuss Pay-to-Win.

This seems analogous to the front of the line passes at Amusement Parks.

To me there is a distinction between winning and bypassing a wait. I guess if one distorts the definition of winning to mean accomplishing a set goal then anything can be winning. Getting up out of bed can be winning. Whatever floats your boat right?

Yep, you're definitely not arguing with me, because you seem to have failed the R&C check on that post. The whole point of which was that the definition of "winning" - which I might add is pretty self-obvious - should have very little to do with the discussion of "pay 2 win" as a colloquial term.

In other words your long discussion of that completely missed the point, and fell into the same trap as the other people who tried to argue the same thing, both in this thread and beyond.

If you admit (and you just did) that the item is designed specifically to bypass an artificial barrier to gain "unfair" advantage, then you have, by definition, admitted that it's "pay 2 win", regardless of your definition of "winning". Because that's basically what "pay 2 win" means.

[Heladron]

you said it^^ .all turbine cares about is the coin...not quality.

I hope Turbine cares about money. It takes money to pay the developers and many other employees to keep our game going.

I also think they care about quality. It might not always be apparent, but quality and earnings go hand in hand.

Software, and come to think of it pretty much every business, is a tough gig. Deadlines are real and customer expectations are real and there is a constant trade off happening.

I bet Project Managers are asking the question everyday, as the deadline approaches, "Can we live with the fallout of this bug or do we risk angry players when we miss the deadline?"

I'm not suggesting that we players shouldn't be upset about bugs. Bug aren't fun. I still get annoyed by the ladder bug, but have become accustomed to it at the same time. In fact, I think I'd miss it if it really did go away.

In summary I'm just saying that if we want to have ourselves taken seriously then we should make comments about Turbine that don't just state the obvious. Of course they are in this to make money. We're all alive to make money. It's first and foremost because it is very difficult to survive without it.

Well, I should get back to work so I can make some money and not get fired from my job. ;)

[DeafeningWhisper]

Yep, you're definitely not arguing with me, because you seem to have failed the R&C check on that post. The whole point of which was that the definition of "winning" - which I might add is pretty self-obvious - should have very little to do with the discussion of "pay 2 win" as a colloquial term.

In other words your long discussion of that completely missed the point, and fell into the same trap as the other people who tried to argue the same thing, both in this thread and beyond.

If you admit (and you just did) that the item is designed specifically to bypass an artificial barrier to gain "unfair" advantage, then you have, by definition, admitted that it's "pay 2 win", regardless of your definition of "winning". Because that's basically what "pay 2 win" means.


Unless the bypass *gives him* a completion its not really pay 2 win, its "pay to play the lotery again in the hopes of getting what he wants, maybe".

There was a good chance he wouldn't get the item he wanted in the 20th list and he ransacked the chests for the item to drop in his name. At worse the bypass is "pay to win?"

Destinies are straight up pay 2 win, but bypass? Not so much.

[Heladron]

Yep, you're definitely not arguing with me, because you seem to have failed the R&C check on that post. The whole point of which was that the definition of "winning" - which I might add is pretty self-obvious - should have very little to do with the discussion of "pay 2 win" as a colloquial term.

In other words your long discussion of that completely missed the point, and fell into the same trap as the other people who tried to argue the same thing, both in this thread and beyond.

If you admit (and you just did) that the item is designed specifically to bypass an artificial barrier to gain "unfair" advantage, then you have, by definition, admitted that it's "pay 2 win", regardless of your definition of "winning". Because that's basically what "pay 2 win" means.

It was a pretty long winded way of saying that I think there should be a different term used to describe what is really happening.

Cheers.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

If you admit (and you just did) that the item is designed specifically to bypass an artificial barrier to gain "unfair" advantage, then you have, by definition, admitted that it's "pay 2 win", regardless of your definition of "winning". Because that's basically what "pay 2 win" means.

Bypass of an artifical barrier - Check

gaining an "unfair" advantage - hmmm, have to think about that one a bit more.

[Hafeal]

Bypass of an artifical barrier - Check

gaining an "unfair" advantage - hmmm, have to think about that one a bit more.

I am with you.

The question to ask is why was there a raid timer in the first place? The 'official' explanation was game balance. Now, whether or not that is true or if it was simply a carrot becomes clearer when you are given the opportunity to *buy* a bypass and pay the developers money. SO, maybe game balance really was not a concern? Now, if game balance is not a concern, wouldn't it seem that it leans away from being "unfair"?

[DeafeningWhisper]

I am with you.

The question to ask is why was there a raid timer in the first place? The 'official' explanation was game balance. Now, whether or not that is true or if it was simply a carrot becomes clearer when you are given the opportunity to *buy* a bypass and pay the developers money. SO, maybe game balance really was not a concern? Now, if game balance is not a concern, wouldn't it seem that it leans away from being "unfair"?

I thought raid timers were implimented when there was only a couple of raids available as a means to artificially extend the content until the next update, that wasn't it?

[Hendrik]

Unless the bypass *gives him* a completion its not really pay 2 win, its "pay to play the lotery again in the hopes of getting what he wants, maybe".

There was a good chance he wouldn't get the item he wanted in the 20th list and he ransacked the chests for the item to drop in his name. At worse the bypass is "pay to win?"

Destinies are straight up pay 2 win, but bypass? Not so much.

Thankfully just about everyone that plays DDO has Destinies by now, or has had them.

Where you at in your Destiny?

;)

[DeafeningWhisper]

Thankfully just about everyone that plays DDO has Destinies by now, or has had them.

Where you at in your Destiny?

;)

I write my own destiny, in the blood of my enemies!


Also Shiradi, Exalted, Draconic, Magister for my toons :)

[Hafeal]

I thought raid timers were implemented when there was only a couple of raids available as a means to artificially extend the content until the next update, that wasn't it?

I am certain that was a side effect. I do not think you will ever get the devs (who are left from then) to state it was the main reason. When the game started, and timers were implemented, DDO was just out and had a growing player base and good pub. There was 1 raid at launch, I think, Tempest Spine, but Velah came in the first update (4/06), Titan a couple after that (7/06), and Demon Sands just after that (10/06) - all in 2006. So while maybe there was some thought to "keeping players busy", I don't think it was a primary motivation. FYI, Gianthold than was released in 4/07.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I am certain that was a side effect. I do not think you will ever get the devs (who are left from then) to state it was the main reason. When the game started, and timers were implemented, DDO was just out and had a growing player base and good pub. There was 1 raid at launch, I think, Tempest Spine, but Velah came in the first update (4/06), Titan a couple after that (7/06), and Demon Sands just after that (10/06) - all in 2006. So while maybe there was some thought to "keeping players busy", I don't think it was a primary motivation. FYI, Gianthold than was released in 4/07.

I see, I also could have mistaken the epic timers with the raid timers. They say making mistakes is human, I've been particulary human today...

[Ranncore]

Entering a raid on any difficulty besides Elite is as good as winning. Don't kid yourselves.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Entering a raid on any difficulty besides Elite is as good as winning. Don't kid yourselves.

So you're saying there is no pay to win since it's all "show up to win"?

[Ranncore]

So you're saying there is no pay to win since it's all "show up to win"?

No, they are not exclusive. Just like grind-to-win and pay-to-win are not exclusive. They all exist here.

[Rauven]

To me there is a distinction between winning and bypassing a wait. I guess if one distorts the definition of winning to mean accomplishing a set goal then anything can be winning. Getting up out of bed can be winning. Whatever floats your boat right?

I got out of bed today. YAY, I win! Tomorrow looks iffy, though. :p

[Rogann]

Just so that I have something to stay on the topic of the original post. The end reward list looked cool. And having cool gear is fun. It seems like purchasing raid timer bypasses can be good if one values having cool gear before the next ice age.


Actually the gear isn't cool at all. The Celestia is a nice DR breaker but that doesn't matter as I already had dr breakers. It doesn't beat the lit 2's plus its rather annoying with the AOE dmg with rogue. Aggroing seven spies sucks. I'm still at the point where I was before. Same old item build. Looking back on it I already knew the Celestia's sucked. I think I did it because I was somewhat angry at the 'we're not taking you, your ransacked' nonsense. Also I wanted to show that the raid was kinda fun and easy to complete. So I made a total of 34 PUG lfm's with completions in 9 days. The total average raids per day was almost 4. Was it worth it? No. Was it fun? Yes.

[Fafnir]

I would have expected to see a tome in one of those lists.

[Shaatan]

A friend got his 20th completion tonight and got 3x +4 Tomes lol. I ll ask him if he took a screenshot of the list once he logs but here is what I have:

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq225/666Shatan666/ScreenShot00068.jpg

[Tid12]

A friend got his 20th completion tonight and got 3x +4 Tomes lol. I ll ask him if he took a screenshot of the list once he logs but here is what I have:

Only +4s and not even a +5.

So, can they be pulled only from the chest? Or a Dev lied to us saying that +5s were there? Not sure what I should believe here.

[Gara]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n17/garasensei/caught20th1.jpghttp://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n17/garasensei/caught20th2.jpg

Got my 20th and there it is in its small glory if anyone still cares about seeing the 20th lists. I wanted a Celestia but can't quite decide if I should take the +4 tome or not.

[Antiguo]

Only +4s and not even a +5.

So, can they be pulled only from the chest? Or a Dev lied to us saying that +5s were there? Not sure what I should believe here.

A developer said tomes +5 could drop there? when? show me a legit screenshot whit a +5 tome please.

[Tid12]

A developer said tomes +5 could drop there? when? show me a legit screenshot whit a +5 tome please.

Have you read exactly what I wrote? I'm looking for evidences that they drop. I think it was Feather who mentioned something about +5 tomes in the raid, not really sure.

I'm sure, if Shade or someone else pops in, they can quote the Dev on +5s.

[Lehmu]

I'll be someone else, then. Here's the quote:



Then they're also in Forgotten Realms non-raid quests on Epic Elite difficulty as bonus treasure that will occasionally appear.
+4 tomes are in the raid, Caught in the Web, on any difficulty, while Epic Elite also has [REDACTED], which I'm sure many of you have already guessed.

[Qnevven]

Commedations? easy to aquire ... I probably have more than I'd ever use now.


If they are so easy to aquire why do i still have no commendations after 17 completions?

[Antiguo]

I'll be someone else, then. Here's the quote:

Epic elite has ........ [REDACTED] ?

I dont get what FoS means whit [REDACTED], tbh.

[Feather_of_Sun]

Yes, +5 tomes are currently available as drops in game.

[zarthak]

Yes, +5 tomes are currently available as drops in game.

they must have the same drop rate as a RSS shard

[Antiguo]

Yes, +5 tomes are currently available as drops in game.

Cool.

[twigzz]

they must have the same drop rate as a RSS shard

Good!

[Viisari]

Only +4s and not even a +5.

So, can they be pulled only from the chest? Or a Dev lied to us saying that +5s were there? Not sure what I should believe here.

To my knowledge +5 tomes only drop from EE CitW. In other words, they're not really worth the effort with their miniscule drop chance.

If they did drop from other difficulties or quests we would've probably heard about it from players by now.

[Dandonk]

Yes, +5 tomes are currently available as drops in game.

So, droprate of one thousandth of a prebuff dopant? With an average-time-to-drop of several times the age of the universe? Or?

[zarthak]

So, droprate of one thousandth of a prebuff dopant? With an average-time-to-drop of several times the age of the universe? Or?

ding ding ding! we have a winner!!

[fco-karatekid]

Good!

Concur!

[xoowak]

Can we really say anything about the drop rate yet? How often does anyone run EE CitW?

[BlackSteel]

drop rates have been posted on some fan sites, they're on the list; just at such a small % it might as well not even be there

[Thorzian]

i remember posting a build with +5 tomes as an end game stat buff and getting dragged through the mud on these forums.. iirc the tome max was +3 at the time. well suck it *******

[oweieie]

i remember posting a build with +5 tomes as an end game stat buff and getting dragged through the mud on these forums.. iirc the tome max was +3 at the time. well suck it *******

Not going to count but I should be over 1k ToDs and epic DQ/VoN6 and then zillions of EE chests on top of that and the only +4 tome I've pulled was given to me by a guildy and it was on a secondary character. +5s don't exist. A handful of toons getting 1 of them over the course of the next few years = doesn't exist.

[maddmatt70]

drop rates have been posted on some fan sites, they're on the list; just at such a small % it might as well not even be there

I have never actually seen a +4 tome pulled in caught in the web in a great number of runs on normal and hard. If I have not seen a +4 tome on normal or hard in a ton of runs what really are the odds I would ever see a +5 tome on ee caught in the web? Best odds are to wait until another quest the same level as caught in the web comes out and run that one a bunch.

[BlackSteel]

I have never actually seen a +4 tome pulled in caught in the web in a great number of runs on normal and hard. If I have not seen a +4 tome on normal or hard in a ton of runs what really are the odds I would ever see a +5 tome on ee caught in the web? Best odds are to wait until another quest the same level as caught in the web comes out and run that one a bunch.

I've seen two in the end chests (+4); if you check the datamined %'s, the chance on the +5's to drop on EE is there, but almost nonexistant its so small. w/o doublechecking, I forget just how many zeros it is to the right of the decimal

[Ganak]

Yes, +5 tomes are currently available as drops in game.

Must call you out and say prove it.


We would have seen evidence in the form of screenshots.


Please double check, there have been many times in this game's history loot tables were not working correctly.

[Chette]

Ran my 20th the other day, no tomes as well.

Incredibly darn frustrating, considering these things drop in a chest that can be easily looted in under 30 seconds and most people farm to ransack on multiple characters every week...but not in the 20th completion list of the most annoying raid ever conceived.

[Glenalth]

i've seen two in the end chests (+4); if you check the datamined %'s, the chance on the +5's to drop on ee is there, but almost nonexistant its so small. W/o doublechecking, i forget just how many zeros it is to the right of the decimal

0.0108%
:(


edit: Oops, old info. Fixed now.

[sirgog]

Must call you out and say prove it.


We would have seen evidence in the form of screenshots.


Please double check, there have been many times in this game's history loot tables were not working correctly.

This.

If they exist in the loot tables they'd have been seen by now, unless they are as rare as Festivult +4s, in which case they don't exist.

[maddmatt70]

This.

If they exist in the loot tables they'd have been seen by now, unless they are as rare as Festivult +4s, in which case they don't exist.

Or because nobody runs epic elite caught in the web which is the only place you can get them. Sample size of EE CITW is extremely small..

[sirgog]

Or because nobody runs epic elite caught in the web which is the only place you can get them. Sample size of EE CITW is extremely small..

Sample size would be a lot higher if the drop rate was high enough that people went there honestly thinking 'there is a chance I could get or at least see a +5 tome this run'.

Epic LOB was run a lot back when it was still broadly believed to be impossible to run without mana pots and many runs failed.

[Zeklijan]

Cool. Thanks!

[emptysands]

Sample size would be a lot higher if the drop rate was high enough that people went there honestly thinking 'there is a chance I could get or at least see a +5 tome this run'.

Epic LOB was run a lot back when it was still broadly believed to be impossible to run without mana pots and many runs failed.

The reward mechanisms for eLOB and CITW are not comparable.

Special end reward every 10th completion, everyone gets some thing (shards at least) every run. Good chance at progression each time you go.

As opposed to, really bad drop rates. Drop rates set so certain items only really drop on EH+. Broken upgrade mechanism that will penalise players who come later to the raid - already does with handwraps.

[MeliCat]

The reward mechanisms for eLOB and CITW are not comparable.

Special end reward every 10th completion, everyone gets some thing (shards at least) every run. Good chance at progression each time you go.

As opposed to, really bad drop rates. Drop rates set so certain items only really drop on EH+. Broken upgrade mechanism that will penalise players who come later to the raid - already does with handwraps.

Exactly this. It is rare I get annoyed with anything in this game, game only related, but CITW has annoyed me here. Running it with friends and for fun only as it's new. I have zero expectations of ever getting anything useful from this raid or the ability to upgrade it. My only hope is that our dear devs are going to eventually review this one day as it's already getting old. They have with other stuff in the past. I really hope they do with this. There is very little incentive to run this.

*Seriously* annoyed.

[Shunlee123]

Exactly this. It is rare I get annoyed with anything in this game, game only related, but CITW has annoyed me here. Running it with friends and for fun only as it's new. I have zero expectations of ever getting anything useful from this raid or the ability to upgrade it. My only hope is that our dear devs are going to eventually review this one day as it's already getting old. They have with other stuff in the past. I really hope they do with this. There is very little incentive to run this.

*Seriously* annoyed.

The incentive is that you will eventually get your 20th completion reward!

[emptysands]

The incentive is that you will eventually get your 20th completion reward!

Being force to chose between a +4 tome (potentially) and maybe the item you want is tough.

Worse if you are TWF, although the hammer seems to drop a lot.

Maybe a 10th completion list will items would be nice. Definitely if they bring back the commendations to upgrade, then they should consider this option. Being /forced/ to take a commendation (if they drop) on 20th list vs +4 tome is likely too promote some forum rage.

[dTarkanan]

For what it's worth, someone in my group doing their 20th found a +4 tome there.

I've seen two in the end chests (+4); if you check the datamined %'s, the chance on the +5's to drop on EE is there, but almost nonexistant its so small. w/o doublechecking, I forget just how many zeros it is to the right of the decimal
Can you provided the datamined %s for curiosity's sake?

[Ew_vastano]

yes but even if the +5 rate was boosted for EE, even with a fully geared group of multi trs fully equiped most with all fate points twisted, it is such a brutal run not many people will be up for a repeat

ours took 5 hours, 177 deaths, 77 re-entries and 40 + pots

[Carpone]

Yes, +5 tomes are currently available as drops in game.
+5 tomes might as well not exist with the unmeasurable droprate.

[Palantyr]

It's kind of funny we're told there is +5 tomes in EE and you can re-enter the raid as much as you want, yet still almost no one wants to bother doing it. Certainly says something about the raid. Maybe the reason no one really wants to go for it has to do with the chance, what was it now? Something like at least two 1 in 100 rolls in a row and another roll? Maybe but probably not, I suspect people would go for it regardless of the percent chance if the raid was actually any fun.

[BlackSteel]

previous poster already put it up

0.0108% on EE only. And it shares its drop roll with some super rare pet. BTW Thats also after they increased the droprate

[Ape_Man]

Sample size would be a lot higher if the drop rate was high enough that people went there honestly thinking 'there is a chance I could get or at least see a +5 tome this run'.

Epic LOB was run a lot back when it was still broadly believed to be impossible to run without mana pots and many runs failed.

Epic LOB paid off, EE CiTW does not.

[DeafeningWhisper]

previous poster already put it up

0.0108% on EE only. And it shares its drop roll with some super rare pet. BTW Thats also after they increased the droprate

It could be 5% and I still wouldn't go into that raid on elite, it's just so annoying already on norm/hard I wouldn't waste the ressources on a root canal during my leasure time.

If it were anywhere near fun I wouldn't mind the abysmal drop rates, but it's not good enough enough to be considered "horrible", it's somewhere between "disgrace" and "cruel joke".

An amalgam of all the worse game mechanics and it's the end game raid, le sigh...

[Cyr]

previous poster already put it up

0.0108% on EE only. And it shares its drop roll with some super rare pet. BTW Thats also after they increased the droprate

Some quick math for those interested on this number...
0.0108% per chest chance of pulling a +5 tome on EE CitW
0.0648% chance per run with six chests on EE CitW
Or an average of ~1543 runs of EE CitW with six chests per one +5 tome pulled
With three day timers that would take on average around 12.5 years to pull a single +5 tome on a toon that was dilligent about running the raid when they came off timer...

Note this is for a single +5 tome not one for each ability score or even the ability scores you care about.

I think most rational people will look at numbers like that and realize that the game will simply release more content with +5 tomes faster then you would pull them (by a huge margin) and/or drastically increase the drop rates before you would pull them. With that in mind you see why there is so very little interest in EE CitW.

[oweieie]

+5 tomes might as well not exist with the unmeasurable droprate.

I realize school plays a part, but I suspect the fact that there were practically no raids of any type posted last night, or for the last couple weeks, and a very low server pop, is due in part to the many horrible decisions Turbine has been making recently, this being just one.

LoB was an abysmally bad raid from a design point of view, but at least the rewards made sense and you could build towards them. Although they're pretty much worthless already, thanks to another of those bad decisions.


yes but even if the +5 rate was boosted for EE, even with a fully geared group of multi trs fully equiped most with all fate points twisted, it is such a brutal run not many people will be up for a repeat

EE isn't that bad if you know what you're doing. Easier than LoB. Stopping respawn during the end fight without spawning spell wards makes it pretty doable. But by no stretch of the imagination are yout getting a 30 minute completion and healing it with only Healing Spring by someone taking Shiradi.

[Miztof]

For what it's worth, someone in my group doing their 20th found a +4 tome there.

Can you provided the datamined %s for curiosity's sake?

4% per item slot, so yes, there's a chance for multiple +4's.

[Habreno]

So basically 1 in 9,300 on a +5 tome. And then 1/6 for a specific one.


So if you're after a specific +5 tome, good luck getting 55,800 chest pulls. On Epic Elite. You'll probably only see your tome drop once in that number of pulls.

[OzmarDDO]

They're really not giving enough reason to run this raid.

Hey, there's an Impressive Trophy! :eek:

-Ozmar the Easily Impressed

[Ew_vastano]

I realize school plays a part, but I suspect the fact that there were practically no raids of any type posted last night, or for the last couple weeks, and a very low server pop, is due in part to the many horrible decisions Turbine has been making recently, this being just one.

LoB was an abysmally bad raid from a design point of view, but at least the rewards made sense and you could build towards them. Although they're pretty much worthless already, thanks to another of those bad decisions.



EE isn't that bad if you know what you're doing. Easier than LoB. Stopping respawn during the end fight without spawning spell wards makes it pretty doable. But by no stretch of the imagination are yout getting a 30 minute completion and healing it with only Healing Spring by someone taking Shiradi.

and how many EE caught in the webs you completed? far as i know theres only 5 completions across all servers

and you talking total bs elob origanaly was much much easier then ee citw

[oweieie]

and how many EE caught in the webs you completed? far as i know theres only 5 completions across all servers

and you talking total bs elob origanaly was much much easier then ee citw

Wow, you could use the tavern in elob to get your SP back? You could do it completely without a tank because the boss is pinned in place? The majority of the threats could be insta-killed or one-shotted?

Wonder what elob you did.

[Sobriquet]

Indeed. That's why I'm ( still ) vip.

But... if someone kicks me in the nuts and offers to sell me painkillers, I won't buy them; otherwise that guy could soon realize that kicking me again and again is profitable.
That's how I feel about epic destiny tree/tome of fate and Citw drop rates/raid timer bypass

Poetry . . .sheer poetry.

[jandhaer]

not so concerned about percentage chance of raid loot dropping, but am concerned that through most of the raid couldnt tell what was going on because the lag was so bad, at parts I couldnt even move at all, and I know it wasnt all on my side as people were pointing out certain parts that spike exceptionally and laughing about how terrible it was going to be... and it was...

not fun

[BlackSteel]

I've yet to experience any lag in CitW. And especially nothing like we used to get on raid bosses (Shroud once everyone had GS and before the change to the offhand physics)

[Cetus]

Hey Vargouille, can you be more specific with that +5 tome statement? Is it only possible in EE web, or just the end reward list, both? How about you increase the chance fo that actually happening, considering the monumental amount of time, effort, and resources you need to spend to get to those chests.

If you would put together a group of your development team, and run that raid on regular servers, without cheats and god mode and actually bleed and sweat through it, then maybe you'd sympathize with our discontent with the reward system.

[Glenalth]

I've yet to experience any lag in CitW. And especially nothing like we used to get on raid bosses (Shroud once everyone had GS and before the change to the offhand physics)

Same, no lag in there that I've noticed.

I do get slideshow mode for a bit when the first wave of mobs shows up at the final fight though.

[JOTMON]

20th run finished off with a Epic CITW,


and... no +5 tomes in any of the chests and no tomes on end reward.

CITW end reward - Tales of Valor... why is this even on the list....
Why are there no commedations on this list and should have a static +4 tome choice.

Ok list for a melee, nothing of any worth for a healer.

http://my.ddo.com/jotmon/wp-content/blogs.dir/11206/files/my-gallery/screenshot00087_0.jpg


http://my.ddo.com/jotmon/wp-content/blogs.dir/11206/files/my-gallery/screenshot00088_0.jpg

[MeliCat]

Twilight?

Or do you have one already? No commendations.

[Habreno]

and how many EE caught in the webs you completed? far as i know theres only 5 completions across all servers

and you talking total bs elob origanaly was much much easier then ee citw

Partly true. EE CitW has very few completions, those that did complete used insane resources, even with practically maxed-out toons.

Had a guild run of ELoB pre-update 14, when this whole mess came out. Took us 8 pots, all by 1 person, to CC. 2 Clerics who used none.


Wow, you could use the tavern in elob to get your SP back? You could do it completely without a tank because the boss is pinned in place? The majority of the threats could be insta-killed or one-shotted?

Wonder what elob you did.


Obviously not the one you're talking about. No shrine in ELoB, which, BTW, is still true on Epic Elite.

To instakill anything takes a 55+ DC. I barely scratched them when I tried to instakill an Artificer (lower Fort save) and my DC's are only a 42 on my Cleric.

Our entire guild, which, BTW, includes a 1600+ HP level 24 tank with, last I checked, 85 Intimidate, would have died in *6* swings without healing. Most of our DPS, which is 700-900 HP, went down in 2-3 hits if they got aggro. Barely enough time for us to get a heal on them.

As a side note, that tank is now working on getting his Intimidate higher, so in the future we may attempt this again.


We used three divines, I was lowest SP at 2400 since I went more HP oriented so I would not die. Other divines were 3100 SP on a Cleric and 4600 SP on a Favored Soul. Yes, 4,600 SP. I know at least myself and the 3100 SP Cleric had a 10% SP cost reduction from our gear (myself 3-piece Amaunator's Blessing from Necklace-Ring-Terrorweb Brestplate+375 PDK Favor upgrade, other Cleric with Green Dragonscale, which has -10% SP costs on it) and going to imagine the Soul had it as well.


This same guild, who did easy runs pre U14 on ELoB and defeated EEDQ2 and EEVoN6 (VoN 6 is on YT if you're interested) in relative ease. Take a guess how far we got?




Scroll down when you want to know.








35%. Not 35% left. 35% DOWN. By our estimates, and the estimated HP on EE from DDO Wiki (for the record, that is 860K HP, likely the most on any single mob in DDO, the only two others possibly coming close are, in their likely order, EE Lolth and EE Velah; EE Laliat is most likely 400k-500k HP, judging from our time on the raid, and last I checked both Horoth and Summolades on Elite ToD were both under 500k and Nytherios, the only other possible target, is still well under 500k. Ronnie and Margerie are also likely around 400k-500k on EE in MA. So EE LoB is most likely highest HP boss in DDO at present time.) we brought the Lord of Blades down, oh, 300k HP- to 560,000 HP *left*. And by this time, I believe I had drunk a DDO-store Superior Memonic, the other Cleric had downed at least two in-game Majors, and I believe the Favored Soul was close to downing one as well. I was already out 200 heal scrolls, believe other Cleric out 300+ and Soul was easily out the same as I.





But yet, no, I doubt it's harder doing EE CitW. There you can reenter, use a tavern and regain SP, and don't have a boss swinging at you for 350-400 a hit. Yes, 350-400 *per hit*, and most of his attacks doublestrike. So he's just hammering you. To a pulp. Like a boss. Nothing I know of in EE CitW does that.

[Chette]

and how many EE caught in the webs you completed? far as i know theres only 5 completions across all servers

and you talking total bs elob origanaly was much much easier then ee citw

There's far more than that I'm sure, my guild has done it two or three times already and I know we're not even the only guild on Ghallanda that's done it.

[psteen1]

Ok list for a melee, nothing of any worth for a healer.



Seriously. Make a +7 club with impact, implement bonus, devotion +120, superior healing lore, fire +100 or light+100, a to-hit/damage bonus based on wisdom, and this raid would be crawling with clerics, favored souls, and druids. This will make pugs easier to fill. This raid is hardly ever run outside of guilds on Argo, unless it is a guild run that needs one or two spots filled up or a healer needed.

[Rizzia]

/sigh really? no commendations? I might as well not bother pursuing the Green dragon armour anymore, Gained 2 raid weapons so far (not wanted by anyone in group) but not seen a single commendation..

One less divine runnin the raid^^

[maddmatt70]

I've yet to experience any lag in CitW. And especially nothing like we used to get on raid bosses (Shroud once everyone had GS and before the change to the offhand physics)

Perhaps you have not, but there is really one very laggy place in CitW which can be prevented if you do the quest a certain way. I am specifically speaking about if you rush right up to the top without pulling some of the portal keepers down. If you rush right up the lag with all the portal keepers is terrible. The lag is terrible for the healers and the melee for that matter. If you pull some of the keepers down and kill them so there is less up top when you run there then there is no lag issues.

[Ew_vastano]

Partly true. EE CitW has very few completions, those that did complete used insane resources, even with practically maxed-out toons.

Had a guild run of ELoB pre-update 14, when this whole mess came out. Took us 8 pots, all by 1 person, to CC. 2 Clerics who used none.




Obviously not the one you're talking about. No shrine in ELoB, which, BTW, is still true on Epic Elite.

To instakill anything takes a 55+ DC. I barely scratched them when I tried to instakill an Artificer (lower Fort save) and my DC's are only a 42 on my Cleric.

Our entire guild, which, BTW, includes a 1600+ HP level 24 tank with, last I checked, 85 Intimidate, would have died in *6* swings without healing. Most of our DPS, which is 700-900 HP, went down in 2-3 hits if they got aggro. Barely enough time for us to get a heal on them.

As a side note, that tank is now working on getting his Intimidate higher, so in the future we may attempt this again.


We used three divines, I was lowest SP at 2400 since I went more HP oriented so I would not die. Other divines were 3100 SP on a Cleric and 4600 SP on a Favored Soul. Yes, 4,600 SP. I know at least myself and the 3100 SP Cleric had a 10% SP cost reduction from our gear (myself 3-piece Amaunator's Blessing from Necklace-Ring-Terrorweb Brestplate+375 PDK Favor upgrade, other Cleric with Green Dragonscale, which has -10% SP costs on it) and going to imagine the Soul had it as well.


This same guild, who did easy runs pre U14 on ELoB and defeated EEDQ2 and EEVoN6 (VoN 6 is on YT if you're interested) in relative ease. Take a guess how far we got?




Scroll down when you want to know.








35%. Not 35% left. 35% DOWN. By our estimates, and the estimated HP on EE from DDO Wiki (for the record, that is 860K HP, likely the most on any single mob in DDO, the only two others possibly coming close are, in their likely order, EE Lolth and EE Velah; EE Laliat is most likely 400k-500k HP, judging from our time on the raid, and last I checked both Horoth and Summolades on Elite ToD were both under 500k and Nytherios, the only other possible target, is still well under 500k. Ronnie and Margerie are also likely around 400k-500k on EE in MA. So EE LoB is most likely highest HP boss in DDO at present time.) we brought the Lord of Blades down, oh, 300k HP- to 560,000 HP *left*. And by this time, I believe I had drunk a DDO-store Superior Memonic, the other Cleric had downed at least two in-game Majors, and I believe the Favored Soul was close to downing one as well. I was already out 200 heal scrolls, believe other Cleric out 300+ and Soul was easily out the same as I.





But yet, no, I doubt it's harder doing EE CitW. There you can reenter, use a tavern and regain SP, and don't have a boss swinging at you for 350-400 a hit. Yes, 350-400 *per hit*, and most of his attacks doublestrike. So he's just hammering you. To a pulp. Like a boss. Nothing I know of in EE CitW does that.

you are correct heb you can recall out to regain sp but if you remember correctly when elob first came out there were only lvl 20s with no epic destinies

only saving grace to ee citw is when you wipe you can recall and re-enter wich never had that luxery in elob
also elob had at most 2 artificers per spawn wich you took out fast
it is impossible to take out the mistresses before all the trash is dead meanwhile they are triple dotting everyone with dp and everything else they throw at you

however it is not possible to recall out and regain sp in the 2 lolth fights (unless you wipe) when she hits you with that 2k sp drain

[JOTMON]

Finished my 3rd EE CiTW,

End reward taken for me on my EE runs(including my 20th).. 2xTales of Valor and a Impressive Trophy.

This puts me at 22 total runs on my healer around 40 runs on all my toons.

Saw 2 +4 tomes in 40ish runs drop for party (on all my runs across all toons), no tomes on end reward list.

The tease of +5 Tomes for EE is the only thing that keeps my healer coming to these raids.

[HAL]

not so concerned about percentage chance of raid loot dropping, but am concerned that through most of the raid couldnt tell what was going on because the lag was so bad, at parts I couldnt even move at all, and I know it wasnt all on my side as people were pointing out certain parts that spike exceptionally and laughing about how terrible it was going to be... and it was...

not fun

Just so you know, AFAIK the server will attempt to sync all members of a party. So if one member has lag all will potentially have lag to some extent. So the fact that other people in your party were also having lag doesn't really mean that it wasn't a player's setup vs. the server.

[djl]

The reward mechanisms for eLOB and CITW are not comparable.

Special end reward every 10th completion, everyone gets some thing (shards at least) every run. Good chance at progression each time you go.

As opposed to, really bad drop rates. Drop rates set so certain items only really drop on EH+. Broken upgrade mechanism that will penalise players who come later to the raid - already does with handwraps.

This is my biggest complaint, here. The drop rates for all the items are FAR from equal. There are a few items that seem to drop commonly-- like the Cleaver and the bows-- and every couple of runs you see one or two of them. Then there's items like Twilight and Celestia, that are so absurdly rare that your only chance of seeing them is in a 20th list. This is beyond stupid-- every item should have equivalent drop rates but anyone who runs this raid regularly knows that is not true.

Then the coms-- I'm at 14 completions on my barbarian and I've pulled a total of ONE commendation. They do not drop in 20th end-lists, from what anybody has reported. Come U16, you will need THREE to upgrade any weapon to Planar Conflux. Currently, you need THREE to make any of the Cormyrian armors, too. Requiring three raid-loot-rarity items in addition to a favor requirement that necessitates completing almost every FR quest on Epic Elite AND an additional item requirement (i.e. a bunch of scales or ANOTHER raid weapon) is just absurdly stupid amounts of grind.

[Cetus]

Finished my 3rd EE CiTW,

End reward taken for me on my EE runs(including my 20th).. 2xTales of Valor and a Impressive Trophy.

This puts me at 22 total runs on my healer around 40 runs on all my toons.

Saw 2 +4 tomes in 40ish runs drop for party (on all my runs across all toons), no tomes on end reward list.

The tease of +5 Tomes for EE is the only thing that keeps my healer coming to these raids.

I genuinely wish that Feather gets SOME kind of push to rectify this. Everytime we get skunked after completing an EE (yesterday we had what? 3 weapons and no commendations?) my hatred for whoever designed the reward system grows.


The ONLY reason I am continuing to pursue this is to get it down to a smooth low resource completion. Once I'm satisfied with that, there's really nothing else that is pulling me in there. A +5 tome NEEDS to drop after an EE completion, some other ingredient that allows us to attune red/green armors to sets would work. SOMETHING to want us to run it on EE would be nice.

Devs, take care of those who are willing to complete these EE's, I don't see why it wouldn't be in your interest to throw us a bone if we complete EE web. After putting a bit over 2 hours into it last night, we left with nothing.

[DeafeningWhisper]

The raid is missing an important item, not healer gear, not khopeshes but fun.

The raid is a failure simply because its a PiTA to complete, boring in it's best parts annoying in the rest...

[Viisari]

The raid is missing an important item, not healer gear, not khopeshes but fun.

The raid is a failure simply because its a PiTA to complete, boring in it's best parts annoying in the rest...

What are you talking about? You mean people don't like beating a gigantic belly button with a bazillion hitpoints?

Or beating the same high hp mobs twice?

Or having bazillion red named priestesses in there who spam >500dmg cometfalls with a reflex save of 40-something all over the place and are probably the biggest PITA in the whole game to kill?

Or getting cursed all the time while having no option to just auto attack the bloody belly button resulting in a massive PITA having to chuck curse pots every 2 seconds...

You mean that ain't fun? Huh?!

[IronClan]

you said it^^ .all turbine cares about is the coin...not quality.

And yet 6 years later...

[oweieie]

What are you talking about? You mean people don't like beating a gigantic belly button with a bazillion hitpoints?

Or beating the same high hp mobs twice?

Or having bazillion red named priestesses in there who spam >500dmg cometfalls with a reflex save of 40-something all over the place and are probably the biggest PITA in the whole game to kill?

Or getting cursed all the time while having no option to just auto attack the bloody belly button resulting in a massive PITA having to chuck curse pots every 2 seconds...

You mean that ain't fun? Huh?!

You forgot... lagging and falling to your death.

Random death from legs including such delights as being tossed half way across the zone, and frictionless physics as you slide along the ground. (random death is fun!)

Having SP drained.

Infinite spawns. Because killing 300 mobs x 20 runs is somehow supposed to be fun.

Poison you can't make yourself immune to.

Webline trip through floors.

Non-magic spell wards.

Sacrificing mobs stuck in walls or on different levels or even islands.

Ridiculously long and stupid end dialogue you can't skip.

Ana bugging out in said stupid dialogue.

Fighting a goddess too stupid to step back 5 feet so you can't hit her, and only notices this whole portal keeper problem when the last one dies.

[locus]

Does dropping the quest before getting your reward and repeating it to reroll 20th lists until you get what you want not work on raids? I assume it doesn't, but that would be a good way to get a bigger sample of 20th lists.

edit: Well ask a dumb question, sorry... ;)

[Arkat]

No

[Ivan_Milic]

Does dropping the quest before getting your reward and repeating it to reroll 20th lists until you get what you want not work on raids? I assume it doesn't, but that would be a good way to get a bigger sample of 20th lists.

You think Turbine is new?

[locus]

nm, don't need to spam this thread, sorry guys ;)

[melnibone72]

I recieved a +4 to +5 Constitution Tome on my 20th CitW completion, many of the ppl I run with have gotten junk but I have to acknowlege they are there.:)

[melnibone72]

Sorry I dont have a screen shot, but my ftr blueyzes has a 64 Constitution in unyielding thanks to the +4 to
+5 tome I pulled from the 20th completion list. It was never my intention to post in forums or I would have screen shooted it. I did however show it to many guildies in For Loot and Glory on the Orien server...thanks all :)...Btw 2053 HP (ship buffed)....I can be happy with at level 25.....Also recieved a +4 to +5 Int tome from Von end chest today.....EH

[SirValentine]

I recieved a +4 to +5 Constitution Tome on my 20th CitW completion, many of the ppl I run with have gotten junk but I have to acknowlege they are there.:)

Note that +4 to +5 upgrades are NOT +5 tomes. They are, as far as loot tables are concerned, a special version of +4 tomes.

That said, I did see a screenshot in another thread of someone who pulled an actual straight-up +5 tome in EE CitW chest.

[Georgekos]

+5 tomes exist? yup i think you can find from +4 to +5 tomes but for sure is very rare!!! :)
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8863/screenshot00002me.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/screenshot00002me.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Xynot2]

They're really not giving enough reason to run this raid.

I mainly play an epic barbarian. There is no reason for me to run Reaver's fate yet I do it every time Im off timer. Why do I play it? Good people, it's fun and I like it. I long since pulled everything out of it that could be useful when it was useful. I still run ToD. I never get anything to drop there but why do I run it? Good people, it's fun and I like it. I dont spend much time in eveningstar for loot. My luck on pulls is legendary. If it's a roll for loot d100 high I roll 30 or less. If it's d100 low I roll 70 or above. (side note on that- I say d100 hi and 1-5 is autofail win and actually had 2 people roll a 1) Point is, grinding loot or XP isn't the only reason to play.

[Vellrad]

I mainly play an epic barbarian. There is no reason for me to run Reaver's fate yet I do it every time Im off timer. Why do I play it? Good people, it's fun and I like it. I long since pulled everything out of it that could be useful when it was useful. I still run ToD. I never get anything to drop there but why do I run it? Good people, it's fun and I like it. I dont spend much time in eveningstar for loot. My luck on pulls is legendary. If it's a roll for loot d100 high I roll 30 or less. If it's d100 low I roll 70 or above. (side note on that- I say d100 hi and 1-5 is autofail win and actually had 2 people roll a 1) Point is, grinding loot or XP isn't the only reason to play.

But would you have fun in web on healer?
They got to drink a lot of pots, simply because most leaders prefer someone else pay for their raid completion than lose 1 or 2 chests.

[Xynot2]

But would you have fun in web on healer?
They got to drink a lot of pots, simply because most leaders prefer someone else pay for their raid completion than lose 1 or 2 chests.

Then I would ask for pots up front or not go. I dont drink many pots on my healer. And I've solo healed a hard Shroud AFTER the blade update. If I have to drink more than 2, then the tactics of the group are wrong.

[Singular]

Then I would ask for pots up front or not go. I dont drink many pots on my healer. And I've solo healed a hard Shroud AFTER the blade update. If I have to drink more than 2, then the tactics of the group are wrong.

I just gave two healers 3 pots each up front and then when we ran into trouble, each bailed. That taught me my lesson well enough.

[Viisari]

But would you have fun in web on healer?
They got to drink a lot of pots, simply because most leaders prefer someone else pay for their raid completion than lose 1 or 2 chests.

Huh? Unless you're running EE there's no reason to drink pots in citw on any char.

Unless you're in a gimp group. But gimp groups need pots for a normal shroud with lvl 25 chars so that's not relevant at all.

[Thrudh]

The raid is missing an important item, not healer gear, not khopeshes but fun.

The raid is a failure simply because its a PiTA to complete, boring in it's best parts annoying in the rest...

Belly button fighting is boring, but I really like the end fight where you have to time killing a lot of mini-bosses... Part 2 of the Shroud used to be challenging with the same mechanic...

I like the raid (except for the belly button fighting)...

[LOOON375]

I pulled a +4-+5 dex upgrade tome in an EH stay at the inn, end chest. I had to purchase a +4 dex tome so I could use it though.

Ive seen numerous +3-+4 upgrade tomes throughout the content.

Back to the raid end list: Now that I have ran the raid 30-40 times, I feel I can comment.

On my main, I have 17 completions. I have pulled 6 coms of heroism. I have pulled or rolled on and won two rapiers. I pulled the Syreth. I rolled on and won a Celestia. I pulled the repeater. I pulled the longsword with Greater dragon bane on it. (forget the name)

In an attempt to get a second Celestia, I have rolled on it numerous other times and lost. I have never seen the dagger drop, but I have see all of the other items drop regularly.

I got really lucky on my monk, and rolled on and won the wraps in his second and last run. No need for me to ever run it on him again.

And yes, I have had a few runs where not a single Item or com dropped. But such is the luck of the draw thing.

There are plenty of good reasons out there to run this raid. Personally, I will keep running it in my attempt to learn it good enough to start leading my own.

[Rhomnibus]

The CitW grind is just plain depressing. Even more depressing than catching a movie at the Underdark cineplex.

http://www.pennyr.plus.com/sschindlist.jpg

[slarden]

Yeah after doing the math and figuring out how long it would take to get the commendations to complete my item, I more or less gave up on it and started focusing on toons that don't need CITW weapons. By the time I get the commendations the item will likely already be obsolete. Also I was not too excited to learn I would have to lose my progress when U17 comes out and lose the tier 1 I already have if I want to upgrade it to the new version.

It seems like the only time I get commendations is when the party can't get a healer and I offer to switch. And of course my healer has no plans to use a CITW weapon and the commendations are btc.

[slarden]

What are you talking about? You mean people don't like beating a gigantic belly button with a bazillion hitpoints?

Or beating the same high hp mobs twice?

Or having bazillion red named priestesses in there who spam >500dmg cometfalls with a reflex save of 40-something all over the place and are probably the biggest PITA in the whole game to kill?

Or getting cursed all the time while having no option to just auto attack the bloody belly button resulting in a massive PITA having to chuck curse pots every 2 seconds...

You mean that ain't fun? Huh?!

+1 for making me laugh :)