Yes the new epics are easy - still not an excuse

[Hobgoblin]

First off - I was the leader of the group and should have shut things down earlier. ya its my fault i admit it

yes evon5 and 6 on epic hard is easy (now) but that is no excuse.

if you are good enough that you can sleep walk through the quest - then do so and dont carp and critize everyone else in the raid.

i should have realized when the "uber" people kept dying and people not listening that we were screwed and not tried to do 6

but really guys - is it that hard to listen to directions like, hobgoblin go to base 3, darkwin to base 2, caster to base 1. prep your genies do not kill them, if the mob is facinated dont hit it.

I mean really?


wttf!


well i got a lot of xp outta 5 at least

I am not a doomsayer - but i wish that the diff was hard enough that people require use tactics.

sigh.

thanks for letting me vent - now i guess i have to start treating the hapless pugs the way they need to be treated.
"what you arnt listening? gtfo! now biznitch!"

cheers.

hob

[Ivan_Milic]

Yea,for some people that is really hard.
Just watch in Shroud if someone dcs and leader says dont open chest,someone will open,1 out of 10 people wont open.

[Mastikator]

but really guys - is it that hard to listen to directions like, [snip]

Unfortunately yes, this is really hard for some. I wish these people would just not join raids though :/

[Qhualor]

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Having trouble knowing your right from your left?

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[Ranncore]

Been saying this in other threads -

You're better off shortmanning your raids than PUGing them. Any of the eberron e-hard raids can be easily done with 6 players.

[Brattyone]

...

but really guys - is it that hard to listen to directions...

I've had the opposite problem. I've done very few raids because I've mostly soloed up until a couple of months ago. I recently joined a chrono raid on one of my alts and before joining I told the leader that I had no clue what to do/where to go but with a little instruction I'd be useful. The person responded with, "No problem, glad to have you join." So the raid started and things were fine until we enter the marketplace where everyone split up. I was fine with not getting any instruction during this part because I can read the objectives...kill monsters. No problem. But then at some point people started going in places. some went into the bank. some went into the tavern. some went...somewhere else. And throughout all of this no one was talking to anyone else, certainly not the leader giving me any clue. The raid finished ok but it didn't warm me up to grouping. I've tried a couple of others and got similar results. Now, I'm not asking that someone give me long and overly detailed instructions...but some basic "don't do this" or "go over there and pull that lever when I say" kind of thing would be helpful. Otherwise, I'll just skip out on raids and continue soloing.

[Hobgoblin]

I've had the opposite problem. I've done very few raids because I've mostly soloed up until a couple of months ago. I recently joined a chrono raid on one of my alts and before joining I told the leader that I had no clue what to do/where to go but with a little instruction I'd be useful. The person responded with, "No problem, glad to have you join." So the raid started and things were fine until we enter the marketplace where everyone split up. I was fine with not getting any instruction during this part because I can read the objectives...kill monsters. No problem. But then at some point people started going in places. some went into the bank. some went into the tavern. some went...somewhere else. And throughout all of this no one was talking to anyone else, certainly not the leader giving me any clue. The raid finished ok but it didn't warm me up to grouping. I've tried a couple of others and got similar results. Now, I'm not asking that someone give me long and overly detailed instructions...but some basic "don't do this" or "go over there and pull that lever when I say" kind of thing would be helpful. Otherwise, I'll just skip out on raids and continue soloing.

good point. i was doing a lil bit of this in the raid - but usually i over tell people what to do. was feeling a lil tired - so when raid started just asked if anyone was new - no one spoke up - so i didnt give my usual speech
now if there is a newbie in the group, i may not tell them everything - but i do lead them around and show them a large portion of it.


my bad. :)

hob

[Qhualor]

I've had the opposite problem. I've done very few raids because I've mostly soloed up until a couple of months ago. I recently joined a chrono raid on one of my alts and before joining I told the leader that I had no clue what to do/where to go but with a little instruction I'd be useful. The person responded with, "No problem, glad to have you join." So the raid started and things were fine until we enter the marketplace where everyone split up. I was fine with not getting any instruction during this part because I can read the objectives...kill monsters. No problem. But then at some point people started going in places. some went into the bank. some went into the tavern. some went...somewhere else. And throughout all of this no one was talking to anyone else, certainly not the leader giving me any clue. The raid finished ok but it didn't warm me up to grouping. I've tried a couple of others and got similar results. Now, I'm not asking that someone give me long and overly detailed instructions...but some basic "don't do this" or "go over there and pull that lever when I say" kind of thing would be helpful. Otherwise, I'll just skip out on raids and continue soloing.

thats one big problem with the epic raiding now. communication was extremely important before the changes to epics or there was a good chance you could fail.

ive been in some raids where it was basically take the first 11 and go. in record time, the raid would be over and anybody new would be struggling to figure out what happened or be poked fun because they died in an EH raid. ive been in some groups where it was the sloppiest with no strategy involved raid and would have surely failed before the changes. groups like that would usually fail or really struggle just making the run to the bank or wipe before even getting to 3rd base.

making the epic raids with such poor difficulty settings designed have opened the door to a lot of casual and new players, where before they never would think to join in the first place or even not be allowed into the group without proper gear and hp. the downside to this is carry new people through the raid, no strategy required and boring completions. the current raiding scene is in no way helping people learn anything or using their brains. sure we can get easy loot now, but theres no bragging rights anymore.

i havent said i had fun in an Echrono in quite some time. right now, endgame doesnt appeal to me and im glad i stopped doing it. it felt too much like an over geared 20 running a casual tempest spine. when i have to use the club of the holy flame to run an ehard raid just to have fun, than its time to take a break and wait to see what happens.

anyone who wants to say "if EH is too easy, theres EE" they might as well not bother typing that.

[Brattyone]

thats one big problem with the epic raiding now. communication was extremely important before the changes to epics or there was a good chance you could fail.

I would have liked this.


making the epic raids with such poor difficulty settings designed have opened the door to a lot of casual and new players, where before they never would think to join in the first place or even not be allowed into the group without proper gear and hp. the downside to this is carry new people through the raid, no strategy required and boring completions. the current raiding scene is in no way helping people learn anything or using their brains. sure we can get easy loot now, but theres no bragging rights anymore.

i havent said i had fun in an Echrono in quite some time. right now, endgame doesnt appeal to me and im glad i stopped doing it. it felt too much like an over geared 20 running a casual tempest spine. when i have to use the club of the holy flame to run an ehard raid just to have fun, than its time to take a break and wait to see what happens.

anyone who wants to say "if EH is too easy, theres EE" they might as well not bother typing that.

While I would like some instruction, I also want it challenging and not just for me but for others in the group as well. My hesitation to join groups for raids didn't have as much to do with hardness difficulty really. It was about seeing more and more people talking about not taking certain people because of some, imo, stupid reason. What I'd like to see is a better balanced hard difficulty and a little better communication. But hey...I'm nowhere near a vet or power gamer or whatnot; so what do I know? :)

[Ungood]

Challenge is Lame.

No, really it is. If I wanted "Challenge" I would not farm quests. If I wanted "Challenge" I don't want 1% drop rates.

Sorry, but sleep walk me through it, and I'm happy, knowing I gotta do this moronic raid/quest again and again till my eyes bleed and I am totally sick of it.

If people really wanted "challenge" they would be running EE, nuff said.

[KillEveryone]

I don't lead as many pugs as I used to because people don't listen to requested directions. Used to put up a LFM all the time but people don't bring their own heals when it says so in the LFM, people don't always listen to simple directions to get something done.

I would much rather run with guildies and friends or solo the quest before I put up a LFM and only resort to the LFM if I need something specific like one that can deal with traps on epic elite chest farming.

I don't mind new players. I have no problems at all with one that doesn't know the quest. I'm happy to help and teach those that wish to learn something about it.

It is the ones that just don't want to follow directions when something specific is being requested that annoy me.

[Tirisha]

I know the first von 6 EH I ran since MOTU was a guild run, we all got to our bases to prep and were completely caught off guard by the menial HP the djinns had and they drop so fast multiple bases had theirs down by accident.

[Seph1roth5]

Yeah I had a similar von 5/6 today where no one listened to me in part 6. I know the djini are easy too but can the raid can still be messed up if people just charge in swinging. I had fascinated fire base and one guy kept waking up everything grrr.

[grgurius]

Challenge is Lame.

No, really it is. If I wanted "Challenge" I would not farm quests. If I wanted "Challenge" I don't want 1% drop rates.

Sorry, but sleep walk me through it, and I'm happy, knowing I gotta do this moronic raid/quest again and again till my eyes bleed and I am totally sick of it.

If people really wanted "challenge" they would be running EE, nuff said.

Well why are you running it then if you are sick of it?

And if you want to sleep walk it trough, run in on normal.

[Ew_vastano]

there is a simple answer i always have even in eh at least 3 or 4 channel guild members, easy they are the only people sent to bases everyone else pikes at home base

on a side note you still fascinate bases?

[stoerm]

but really guys - is it that hard to listen to directions like, hobgoblin go to base 3, darkwin to base 2, caster to base 1. prep your genies do not kill them, if the mob is facinated dont hit it.

If you are dealing with people you don't know, i.e. 99% of all pugs, you cannot assume they know anything. Talk through it as if they are first timers and ignore the sighs from the vets. In this case you need to explain what base 1/2/3 means or tell x,y and z to follow Hob. I've only ever run heroic VoN, maybe 5-6 times, and nobody explained base numbering. Same applies to wiz king tower naming. Asking is often futile as well, it's like insider knowledge. That or most just pretend to know.

Also note that a stoner doing eBaseLvl10-16Anything is probably a first timer.

[Aurora1979]

If people really wanted "challenge" they would be running EE, nuff said.

+1 quoted for truth.

If people were saying EE was a cake walk I could understand but not when they say it about EH.

As for grouping, Its always been a hit and miss affair. I do think its down to the leader (op) though, if they dont communicate then they can't expect the party to follow.

However, op clearly was telling people stuff and it is very frustrating when you're standing there watching someone do exactly the thing you told them not to 1 min ago..... hitting fascinated mobs is just completely typical... drives me mad when I am on my bard especially when people then start whining at me coz a mobs not held!!

[Qhualor]

Challenge is Lame.

No, really it is. If I wanted "Challenge" I would not farm quests. If I wanted "Challenge" I don't want 1% drop rates.

Sorry, but sleep walk me through it, and I'm happy, knowing I gotta do this moronic raid/quest again and again till my eyes bleed and I am totally sick of it.

If people really wanted "challenge" they would be running EE, nuff said.

i guess time sink games arent for you. i played my daughters Zhu Zhu Pets WII game once and found it not challenging. just saying...

[varusso]

"Listening" is an epic elite difficulty. Just ask my 5-yr-old. :rolleyes:

[Ivan_Milic]

Before the expansion instructions were always given in epic raids and some harder epic quests where 1 mistake can screw up so much(like in small problem talking with brawn before getting to air ele),but now they are easy as Shroud,when did you see last time someone gave instructions for Shroud?

[TrinityTurtle]

Aside from the listening issue, which we all know is pretty unsolvable after banging our heads on the wall all our lives from grade school group projects to ddo pugs, there is also a perspective issue. I've noticed a lot of players screaming how easy epic hards are. And they are...for me. But I've been playing for three years, struggled to develope skills to do the old epics, and generally read the forums, wiki, talked to other players, and constantly tried to learn to do better so I die less. The hards are not so intrinsically easy that I could sleepwalk without having done all that learning curve.

But everyone assumes that what is easy for them is easy to others. And they mock or ignore the newer players who honestly don't understand how we think it's so easy, because they are still struggling, need the tactics, and are failing. And in a lot of cases instead of helping them understand what is going wrong, or how to improve their skills, those players choose to ignore them or mock them for being gimp instead of possibly stopping to ask themselves "is this player news? Do they need some help?".

Epic hard is not easy for everyone. We tell new players constantly to not worry about elite streaks, learn the game, play normal, normal is good. And then...in the epics...a lot of those same players suddenly forget there are a lot of new first life players still trying to learn and for some reason insist on bragging about thier skills instead of really showing how awesome they are by taking the time to work out a plan, explain the logic (so that the new players can apply the new tactics in other areas with similar problems) and really show off thier knowledge and skills in a way that is not only appropriate, but honestly, backs up and conveys the image of awesome player a lot more than some random dude spouting off how awesome he is while the quest is failing. If he's so awesome, no reason for the quest to fail then really, is there? :)

[Shmuel]

The problem is NOT difficulty level, it is the ability of people to communicate.

I still think that where it ,matters, most raid leaders I know still do give basic instructions. If they don't, yes they are part of the problem.

In most raids, one individual who is not listening to the party leader, or is willfully ignoring them and refusing to cooperate with the group is the problem. Any quest on any difficulty that requires coordination between people would probably be impossible for these people.

There does seem to be a huge influx of these people lately, especially to epic normal and epic hard raids. Some examples:

1. I was recently in a pug hard ev6 which I joined thinking 'ev6 is so easy now how could we really fail it, besides, not much else is going on'. Well, We failed it. Because ONE and I stress only ONE person was hitting fascinated mobs with AOE effects from the start, killing the base 1 genie over and over and over without paying apparently any attention at all to what was going on on other bases. People tried to adjust several times, but after about the 3rd attempt resources were significantly depleted by everyone and the group wiped.

2. Recently in a mostly guild/channel raid for CITW and we picked up a few pugs to round things out. Raid goes fine up until the end, when ONE, and I again stress only ONE, individual was spending time indiscriminately killing portal keepers without waiting for the rest of the group to prep the other ones, attacking non-portal keeper mistresses which would then sacrifice random portal keepers and become such themselves, running off by himself to aggro mobs when the rest of the group was doing something else and generally making any attempt to end the end fight in an ordered way such that it actually ends impossible. The guild leader in this case was a person I have played a long time with, so I was really enjoying hearing his voice get louder and louder, his tone angrier and angrier, and generally sounding more and more like a crazy person trying to get people to finish the raid properly. Eventually I maxed out on my "hearing G*****e go nuts" fun factor and we decided to intentionally have everyone agree that we would just let the mobs kill this guy (he was a barbarian so it was easy) and not rez him until the raid was complete. less than 1 minute later we were looting our chests.

Honestly It has always been the case that one person can ruin a raid. It is true for many raids:
Velah- messing up bases
Titan - knocking down pillars
Reaver- killing him before someone flies
Abbott- in so so many ways
Shroud- not coordinating part 2
TOD: messing with that tanks ability to manage aggro, repeatedly drawing aggro you cant handle and dieing during the end fight
Hound: killing the pups, or taking the crystals and not using them
MA: Killing a titan before the other is prepped
LOB: Messing with the aggro management of the tank, or much worse, the person in charge of the dogs.
CITW: not coordinating end fight

I really think that if these *********s are going to become a regular feature of raids that don't consist of 100% people who know each other, then
"LET THE ***HOLE DIE AND DO NOT REZ THEM UNTIL WE COMPLETE THE RAID"
is going to have to become more and more a part of every raid leader's box of tools.

[Hendrik]

there is a simple answer i always have even in eh at least 3 or 4 channel guild members, easy they are the only people sent to bases everyone else pikes at home base

on a side note you still fascinate bases?

Only in EE.

[Daitengu]

Besides all this not everyone knows what base1 etc. means.

[Raithe]

yes evon5 and 6 on epic hard is easy (now) but that is no excuse.


You are correct in your assertion that the raids being easy is NOT an excuse for failing to complete them in their entirety. That would, in fact, be a reason that you should have been able to complete. Good detective work, realizing that fact.



if you are good enough that you can sleep walk through the quest - then do so and dont carp and critize everyone else in the raid.


Ok, now I am confused. You seem to be criticizing everyone else in the raid for criticizing everyone else in the raid. This is often known as being hypocritical, and is generally frowned upon. You were doing so well, I must have missed something...

On a serious note, all these complaints about raids being easy are laughable simply due to the fact that no one can really know how easy other people in the group are making them. You can't use your static guild raid as a basis for comparation, and if you aren't taking the first eleven uncoordinated PUGgers then your observations about the difficulty of the raid are being biased by people who may be able to solo them on epic elite...

[deahamlet]

The problem is NOT difficulty level, it is the ability of people to communicate.

I still think that where it ,matters, most raid leaders I know still do give basic instructions. If they don't, yes they are part of the problem.

In most raids, one individual who is not listening to the party leader, or is willfully ignoring them and refusing to cooperate with the group is the problem. Any quest on any difficulty that requires coordination between people would probably be impossible for these people.

There does seem to be a huge influx of these people lately, especially to epic normal and epic hard raids. Some examples:

1. I was recently in a pug hard ev6 which I joined thinking 'ev6 is so easy now how could we really fail it, besides, not much else is going on'. Well, We failed it. Because ONE and I stress only ONE person was hitting fascinated mobs with AOE effects from the start, killing the base 1 genie over and over and over without paying apparently any attention at all to what was going on on other bases. People tried to adjust several times, but after about the 3rd attempt resources were significantly depleted by everyone and the group wiped.

2. Recently in a mostly guild/channel raid for CITW and we picked up a few pugs to round things out. Raid goes fine up until the end, when ONE, and I again stress only ONE, individual was spending time indiscriminately killing portal keepers without waiting for the rest of the group to prep the other ones, attacking non-portal keeper mistresses which would then sacrifice random portal keepers and become such themselves, running off by himself to aggro mobs when the rest of the group was doing something else and generally making any attempt to end the end fight in an ordered way such that it actually ends impossible. The guild leader in this case was a person I have played a long time with, so I was really enjoying hearing his voice get louder and louder, his tone angrier and angrier, and generally sounding more and more like a crazy person trying to get people to finish the raid properly. Eventually I maxed out on my "hearing G*****e go nuts" fun factor and we decided to intentionally have everyone agree that we would just let the mobs kill this guy (he was a barbarian so it was easy) and not rez him until the raid was complete. less than 1 minute later we were looting our chests.

Honestly It has always been the case that one person can ruin a raid. It is true for many raids:
Velah- messing up bases
Titan - knocking down pillars
Reaver- killing him before someone flies
Abbott- in so so many ways
Shroud- not coordinating part 2
TOD: messing with that tanks ability to manage aggro, repeatedly drawing aggro you cant handle and dieing during the end fight
Hound: killing the pups, or taking the crystals and not using them
MA: Killing a titan before the other is prepped
LOB: Messing with the aggro management of the tank, or much worse, the person in charge of the dogs.
CITW: not coordinating end fight

I really think that if these *********s are going to become a regular feature of raids that don't consist of 100% people who know each other, then
"LET THE ***HOLE DIE AND DO NOT REZ THEM UNTIL WE COMPLETE THE RAID"
is going to have to become more and more a part of every raid leader's box of tools.

I've been called names over getting snippy with those kind of players. But I agree one guy can ruin things up big time. I call those people not worth the cost of a heal scroll or raise dead scroll.
And I've seen a lot of them... Just not sure I can say that there are more than before.

We had a guy in citw the other day who I was about to let die because he kept running off to sights unknown aggroing more portal keepers and the end fight was already taking crazy amounts of time and resources. I am bad with names but his toon name I remember.

[Ralmeth]

New in the DDO store! Instructions with Pictures!

Tired of running around circles on the bases in Epic Von 6 wondering where it will lead?

Do you love listening to your favorite heavy metal rock band while questing?

Having trouble knowing your right from your left?

Well dont be ashamed friends! Now you can follow simple directions without needing to listen to the party leader or waste your precious time to read party chat! For just 150 Turbine Points you can purchase Instructions with Pictures! We will also include a bundle option for just an additional 50 Turbine Points for the printable version. Thats right! The printable version allows you to alt-tab AFK while you check your e-mails, look at pretty pictures and even post troll comments on the DDO Forums!

Act now while supplies last!

:D

LOL:) Even better...what if big yellow arrows would show up and point you on where to go and instructions would show up in big bold print on your screen on what you should do.

[Karavek]

This a not a new issue, it has nothing really to do with the new levels of power players can achieve nor the various attempts to balance content fairly for differing skill lvls to suit player comfort levels.

This has everything to do with drop rates vs time investment vs fun factor which is an issue we have dealt with since launch. Nor is it new to the MMO scene.

DDO devs over the years have said they wish to keep DDO true to the spirit of challenging and creative adventuring where thinking on our feet and having good friends to call upon can be the key to survival and success.

However many here I think agree that is often at war with certain MMO commonalities. One as brought up by our fellow forumite Ungood above is you cant make something truly challenging for a meager chance at a rare item that due to population numbers and time eventually becomes the standard rather then the rarity it was meant to be.

Some old MUDs I think when I recall those games we played before the age of MMORPG, usually seemed to avoid this by never having standardized NAMED items. Rather one of a kind items came during holiday events etc. Imagine if instead of the list of named items we got each crystal cove the main thing was those hidden buried treasures and they produced truly uniquely named items with a myriad of random effects to rival what we currently see on standard named loot( the actually useful ones I mean) Old diablo 1 and 2 had tons of replay value due to that mechanic.

The fact is DDO is a wierd hybrid MMO, one part fast paced action hack and slash, and one part story driven dungeon crawl. Some love one aspect while loathing the other hence the many different play styles that fall in between the extremes.

What some need to remember is that no one kind of content or playstyle is superior to another and that games are about casual fun, not competition. That is what professional sports are for. This creates an issue when those who crave and triumph through higher difficulty settings feel they should get better rewards from their efforts.

Instead of more powerful gear, I suggest armor and weapon kits to change appearances become the new end game reward grind. Appearance alone is more then enough to get players mouths drooling, especially if its truly pleasing to the eye.

If a reward is not a BS 1% drop but a certain reward, the challenge can be upped accordingly to fit the rewards value. However when this has to be factored against player meta knowledge and the vast difference in player gear and ability between casual and hardcore it becomes a problem more complex then I want to deal with and thankfully thats not my job.

Just my ranting ramblings on the topic

[Talon_Moonshadow]

While I cannot fathom why.... it is very obvious to me that a very large percentage of players do not know, how to NOT kill something. :(

[Thorzian]

all this whining about EH. I don't get it.

-yes it's easy, get over it. people farm hard because the xp and drop rates are both better then normal. the "challenge" is EE.... period. the OP talked about bragging rights. there are none in hard. normal is for absolute no-brain speed, elite is for an extremely difficult challenge..... hard is for everybody else.

i can't really explain it any better.

[Raithe]

Instead of more powerful gear, I suggest armor and weapon kits to change appearances become the new end game reward grind. Appearance alone is more then enough to get players mouths drooling, especially if its truly pleasing to the eye.


This is a great idea that probably would have worked best if it had been implemented from the beginning. Aesthetics are a very "eye of the beholder" type of thing, while numerical superiority is a thorn in the sides of both developers and casual gamers.


...hard is for everybody else.

I'm not really disagreeing with your post, but this is NOT the case. If it were, the complainers would have a leg to stand on. Hard is actually TOO DIFFICULT for some of the playerbase who are still learning how to play the game. That is why there is casual and normal as well (though personally I'm not sure casual difficulty is utilized enough to warrant its inclusion - it seems more like the result of somebody's temper tantrum response to not being able to make the game "difficult" for even veteran players).

[Hobgoblin]

You are correct in your assertion that the raids being easy is NOT an excuse for failing to complete them in their entirety. That would, in fact, be a reason that you should have been able to complete. Good detective work, realizing that fact.



Ok, now I am confused. You seem to be criticizing everyone else in the raid for criticizing everyone else in the raid. This is often known as being hypocritical, and is generally frowned upon. You were doing so well, I must have missed something...

On a serious note, all these complaints about raids being easy are laughable simply due to the fact that no one can really know how easy other people in the group are making them. You can't use your static guild raid as a basis for comparation, and if you aren't taking the first eleven uncoordinated PUGgers then your observations about the difficulty of the raid are being biased by people who may be able to solo them on epic elite...

sry man - maybe I worded it poorly - and I admitted that if i was leading better that it could have been prevented.

What I meant was that because the difficulty had been reduced so much - people are not working together and not listening to anyone.

O and @ ew vasteno - the only reason that I was facinating bases was that I had 2 bards in group. Again we should have just steamrolled the bases and killed everything but that was another mistake. I was just pointing out the level of not listening that was going on in here.

hob

[locksmith]

So much win in this thread. I will just say as far as new players go, it is not my job to seek them out and spoon feed them. However if I or my guild in general is leading a raid we always ask for first timers and/or someone that would like detailed instructions to send the raid leader a tell. This is done so the person doesn't have to feel like a noob. I would say 6 out of 10 times the noob wont send that tell and will fowl something up. This is when the verbal bashing comes. Not because they are a noob but because we gave them the chance to learn and the said screw it.

[Qhualor]

So much win in this thread. I will just say as far as new players go, it is not my job to seek them out and spoon feed them. However if I or my guild in general is leading a raid we always ask for first timers and/or someone that would like detailed instructions to send the raid leader a tell. This is done so the person doesn't have to feel like a noob. I would say 6 out of 10 times the noob wont send that tell and will fowl something up. This is when the verbal bashing comes. Not because they are a noob but because we gave them the chance to learn and the said screw it.

new players arent trying to be found. they find you when you post an lfm. in my experiences with more than i can count pug raids, new players just ask for simple instructions. thats all they ask for. beyond that it comes down to the party leader and the new player to know their role.

its the party leaders responsibility to make sure new players know what to do, where to stand and make sure they tell them what spells to mem and/or weapons to bring. many times ive seen party leaders not fully explain things, sometimes not at all and than get upset because the new guy wiped the raid or didnt bring what was needed. communication is key.

the last thing a new guy should be responsible for is anything important in the raid. they shouldnt be solo healing or tanking the boss. not saying they probably couldnt handle it, but its best not to take chances. leave important jobs for experienced players so the new guy can watch and see what to do for next time.

a lot of new players will say they are new or inexperienced with a raid, but not all. theres a lot of reasons why they wont speak up, but its their fault and nobody elses for not saying anything. i wouldnt necessarily blacklist pugs because of this, but i would make sure the new guy knew he needed to say something and be as polite about it as possible. if its obvious later during the raid, than tells should be sent. no need to escalate over voice or party chat where it becomes uncomfortable even for the experienced players in the group doing nothing wrong.

that leads to how do you know if there is a newb or a noob in your group? theres plenty of both around in the game but noobs can cleverly disguise themselves as a newb by saying "sorry, its my first time. guess i missed it in party chat" or "i was afk when you asked". before calling somebody a noob, make sure thats what they are before calling them a newb.

allowing pugs into a group is just like rolling a di. sometimes your roll is good and get a good player. sometimes your roll is low and get a bad player. this is why i hate when people generalize pugs as noobs. not all are and ive seen more successful pug groups pull off tough raids than what i read here on the forums. yeah, sometimes they arent smooth as silk, but pugs add flavor to the game.

[locksmith]

At first I thought you were trying to blast me, but ended up validating my point. Very well said. I don't agree with all points you made but bottom line is I can't help you if I don't know you need help. There is no shame in being new. All I ask is you let me know (in privet if need). But I'm not going to tell peole how to do roids if everyone in the raid knows.

[Eighnuss]

i ran an easy quest on a lower difficulty level, and people died alot. I then took them into a harder, but still lower difficulty quest, and we failed. Can you make the lower difficulties harder to prevent this issue in the future?


yes

[Hobgoblin]

yes

thats really not what i was saying, but thanks for misquoting me


hob

[Eighnuss]

The word you sought was "abridged"

[Hobgoblin]

The word you sought was "abridged"

i think you are missing a bridge somewhere. go away.

hob

[Brattyone]

So much win in this thread. I will just say as far as new players go, it is not my job to seek them out and spoon feed them. However if I or my guild in general is leading a raid we always ask for first timers and/or someone that would like detailed instructions to send the raid leader a tell. This is done so the person doesn't have to feel like a noob. I would say 6 out of 10 times the noob wont send that tell and will fowl something up. This is when the verbal bashing comes. Not because they are a noob but because we gave them the chance to learn and the said screw it.

Spoon feed new players? I doubt there are that many newer players that would like to be spoon fed through quests/raids.

Verbal bashing is never appropriate, even when you think they deserve it. Honestly, it's this kind of mentality that has kept me from joining groups. While I'm not exactly a new player anymore, I am still learning things. And sometimes I make really stupid mistakes, even though I know better. If I were in your group and made one of those really stupid mistakes and then was verbally bashed, I'd be really hurt. Oh...and btw, I always let the leader know if it's a quest/raid that I don't know well.

[locksmith]

Spoon feed new players? I doubt there are that many newer players that would like to be spoon fed through quests/raids.

Verbal bashing is never appropriate, even when you think they deserve it. Honestly, it's this kind of mentality that has kept me from joining groups. While I'm not exactly a new player anymore, I am still learning things. And sometimes I make really stupid mistakes, even though I know better. If I were in your group and made one of those really stupid mistakes and then was verbally bashed, I'd be really hurt. Oh...and btw, I always let the leader know if it's a quest/raid that I don't know well.

It takes a lot to get me to yell at someone, or verbally bash as you put it. If someone dose something dumb after I told them not to they get a smart ### comment like "what did we learn". Wouldn't call it verbal bashing, more just a playful reminder to listen to me next time. As far spoon fed, people send me tells all the time asking to run them through a quest. A few times sure but I have a limit. Or a pug Rever and the leader just assumes someone will be able to solve the puzzle. If they ask up front sure no problem. If we are starring at it then you ask. /recall

[Seph1roth5]

Haven't seen many instructions handed out in shroud, but have seen a lot of phase 2s turn into a scramble-killfest because no one bothered prepping, or getting to the crystal.