Vip?

[Camellias]

I just reactivated my DDO account as a VIP and was suprised went i went to Eveningstar and had 3/4 of the quests blocked from 'not owning the expension pack'. Also was suprised that i wasn't allowed to get an epic destiny at level 20.

So, after reading about Turbine's new double dipping policies. I'm asking about clarification of what your company means by :

<Adventure Packs {Terms & Conditions Apply. Does not include expansion packs. Content and offers may vary and are subject to change.}; Access to all standard adventure packs>;

<New Releases {Terms & Conditions Apply. Does not include expansion packs. Content and offers may vary and are subject to change.}; Early Access when available>;

Assuming VIP are required to purchase new expansions because they are not available as per Terms & Conditions and/or Content and offers may vary and are subject to change, when will they become VIP acessable?

Assuming VIP are required to purchase epic destinies because they are not available as per Terms & Conditions and/or Content and offers may vary and are subject to change, when will they become VIP acessable?

Is there any point in getting VIP if I (VIP accounts holder) have to purchase new expensions anyway?

Thank you for providing an inquiry service to the game and the answers i'm requesting.

Camellias

Apologies for orthographics and gramaticals errors.
Admins feel free to move the post to an other sub section of the forum if it fits better there.

http://www.ddo.com/vip

[djl]

I agree that it's BS that VIPs have to buy Epic Destinies, but the other content in MOTU is marketed as an Expansion Pack. It's separate from an Adventure Pack, larger.

And right now, assuming they don't nerf several of the MOTU quests and make the current methods of exp grinding worthless, a big draw for VIPs is that you can change Destinies in any public place, rather than having to run all the way to a Fatespinner to do it. It saves a considerable amount of time if you're in it for the long haul on Fate Points.

[Khatzhas]

The expansion is not the same as the updates that may introduce new content every few months. VIPs do not automatically get access to the expansion as they do the adventure packs in the basic game.
Accessing the expansion requires buying the expansion whether you are VIP or not.

The expansion and epic destinies are accessible for VIPs, premium and free-to-players through the DDO store by Turbine points if you don't want to shell out cash directly.

[Qhualor]

vips can run 10% faster now. that to me is worth it alone. believe me, i jumped for joy when i read that. the percs just keep coming :D

[djl]

vips can run 10% faster now. that to me is worth it alone. believe me, i jumped for joy when i read that. the percs just keep coming :D

TBH 10% run speed is barely noticeable. And it's only in public places. If it were 20 or 30%, then yes, it WOULD be a big perk.

[chance2000]

Vip and the new stuff.
Only the update 15 new quests are included with VIP as with druid.
Epic destinies is not
Most of Evening Star is not.
That is the Summer Paid Expansion stuff.
The Challenges are included with VIP
Here is a copy paste of what the summer expansion includes:

Dungeons & Dragons Online™: Menace of the Underdark™ Standard Edition - Digital Download
Journey deep into the storied Forgotten Realms and face Lolth, Queen of the Demonweb, in DDO’s expansion Menace of the Underdark™!

Standard Edition Features
3 Forgotten Realms Adventure Packs
Featuring a multitude of epic adventures, unprecedented new wilderness areas with challenging objectives, a host of dungeons and more!

The King's Forest
Explore deep into the King’s Forest and defend the village of Eveningstar from Lolth’s Drow legions!

The Underdark
Venture down into the Underdark and confront Lolth’s elite followers in the Drow city of Sschindlyryn!

The Demonweb
Journey to Lolth’s home plane in this Raid quest, battle demon hordes and confront the spider goddess herself as you attempt to stop her scheme!
Epic Destinies
Attain epic enhancements as you progress through levels 20-25!

Druid Class
Wield nature’s magic, or transform into a powerful animal form, as you play the all new shape-shifting Druid class! Free to VIPs!

Eveningstar Challenge Pack
New challenge quests for levels 15-25! Free to VIPs!

Greater Tome of Learning
(1 free tome per DDO game world)
Permanently increases experience earned by a character up to level 20. Provides +50% bonus to experience for first-time quest completions and +20% boost to other earned experience points. Stacks with other experience boosts and persists through all forms of reincarnation.

1,000 Turbine Points

Veteran Status (lvl 4)
Start a new character at level 4!


Hope that helps
The level cap to 25 is for all, just hard to get there.

[Ranncore]

Cancelled my VIP after MOTU came out - wasn't impressed with the ridiculous amount of bugs, non-functioning content, raid wasn't completeable on release and I still haven't bothered to run it. Pretty bummed that that mess cost me 80 dollars.
I told myself I'd go VIP again if they started releasing quality content.
Come U15, 4 new quests, 2 of them are broken, and a couple of my favorite raids got broken to boot. Pretty unimpressive - I'm not VIP again.

[Synsuous]

vips can run 10% faster now. that to me is worth it alone. believe me, i jumped for joy when i read that. the percs just keep coming :D


The 10% is ok, but I would rather that the house P 'go faster' necklace worked all the time instead of having a single charge. I hate the slow run speed. I want to run faster everywhere all the time. If you aren't going to let me do it in quests (and I am a rogue, so I would prefer not to run in any quest anyway), that is fine. Let me run as fast as I can everywhere else.

[djl]

Cancelled my VIP after MOTU came out - wasn't impressed with the ridiculous amount of bugs, non-functioning content, raid wasn't completeable on release and I still haven't bothered to run it. Pretty bummed that that mess cost me 80 dollars.
I told myself I'd go VIP again if they started releasing quality content.
Come U15, 4 new quests, 2 of them are broken, and a couple of my favorite raids got broken to boot. Pretty unimpressive - I'm not VIP again.

I don't blame you on that, their service lately has been incredibly disappointing. I'm still a VIP only because I find that it's less trouble to own everything while I play and then cancel when I get bored than it is to wait for sales on stuff.

[Dysmetria]

Come U15, 4 new quests, 2 of them are broken, and a couple of my favorite raids got broken to boot. Pretty unimpressive - I'm not VIP again.Didn't this morning's hotfix correct all those things?

[Ranncore]

Didn't this morning's hotfix correct all those things?

Perhaps - I'll wait til tomorrow to see what it broke. There are lots of other things to fix yet.

What I'm waiting for is an impressive release. You know, like an expansion... or a few new quests... that are innovative, new features, challenging bosses, impressive loot, and that work on the day of their release?

I'm betting that I'll be playing GW2 by the time Turbine releases something like that.

*Edit What I'm trying to say is that I'm not impressed by fixes - they shouldn't have been broken in the first place.

[UnderwearModel]

I just canceled my VIP subscription because of this issue and many others.

Hopefully, you will get better warm fuzzies than I did from the forums. If you get unlucky, you just might get one or two HATE pms like I did. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=389157)


If you do get some hate PMs, there is an icon in the upper right corner as you read the PM, that is an exclamation point to report the PM. The exclamation point is not in the message area itself, but outside of it, and above it.

[Vormaerin]

Is there any point in getting VIP if I (VIP accounts holder) have to purchase new expensions anyway?



So far, DDO has had 8 Modules and 15 Updates. Exactly 1 of those updates coincided with an expansion.

If you are a VIP, you will have to pay for any expansions that are forthcoming, either with cash or with your included Turbine Points. We have no information on how many that might be, since this is the first one DDO has ever done.

If you are not a VIP, you will naturally need to pay for all the content you intend to use. If you want to replace all the content you get for your subscription, you are looking at about 30,000 Turbine Points (before any sales you happen to have access to).

If you are going to be playing consistently for the next several years OR you only need a small section of the game, it may be worth going Premium. If you are going to play sporadically or you want to be able to do anything that strikes your fancy (except the MotU adventures), you'll find VIP to be less expensive.

As far as VIP perks go:
Elite opening on first life
No need to visit fatespinner to adjust Epic Destinies
10% public area run speed bonus
longer AFK time allowance

[Qhualor]

TBH 10% run speed is barely noticeable. And it's only in public places. If it were 20 or 30%, then yes, it WOULD be a big perk.

i was poking fun by saying the vip sub is worth it now that vips get additional 10% run speed. i need to increase my sarcasm next time it seems :)

[djl]

i was poking fun by saying the vip sub is worth it now that vips get additional 10% run speed. i need to increase my sarcasm next time it seems :)

Ah, I failed my roll. I need to put more points into Detect Sarcasm.

[dbgager]

Lol..Its not odd for an expansion to a game to cost money..In fact it is rare for it not to. THE words VIP..only mean Monthly Subscriber, and only entitle you normal content..Just like any other game. As for me I have just started playing the game a couple of weeks ago..SO the difference between a VIP sub which I have, and FTP or premium is huge.

[Tenlaar]

I love seeing the "it's an expansion, it's totally different!" posts. All that they did was put a few things that are normally sold separately in the DDO store into a bundle and called it an expansion.

Three adventure packs, which are supposed to be (but aren't) "free" to VIP players.
A challenge pack, which is supposed to be (but isn't) "free" to VIP players.
A class, which is supposed to be (and, unlike artificer and favored soul, actually is) "free" to VIP players.

Put these individual things together and they magically become much greater than the sum of their parts - what, about $80 greater?

Epic Destinies are a fundamental character progression in epic levels and should not be a purchase-only feature.

[dbgager]

I love seeing the "it's an expansion, it's totally different!" posts. All that they did was put a few things that are normally sold separately in the DDO store into a bundle and called it an expansion.

Three adventure packs, which are supposed to be (but aren't) "free" to VIP players.
A challenge pack, which is supposed to be (but isn't) "free" to VIP players.
A class, which is supposed to be (and, unlike artificer and favored soul, actually is) "free" to VIP players.

Put these individual things together and they magically become much greater than the sum of their parts - what, about $80 greater?

Epic Destinies are a fundamental character progression in epic levels and should not be a purchase-only feature.

And exactly what do you think an expansion is ( new higher level content...unexplored lands...higher level cap )...Ask WOW players just how many expansions they have forked over money for. Where did $80 come from. The expansions could be purchased for $29. If you want to continue to be able to play this game..it requires that the developers make money so that they can go home and feed their children. These are large adventure packs..that required a lot of development time ( cost ) to make.

The solution is not to buy the expansion, if you do not feel its worth anything. But to scorn a business for doing exactly what it is in business to do, and that is to make money... is silly.

I never have understood people who keep calling these developers money grabbers..lol. These people do not understand why Turbine develops these games in the first place. Its certainly not because their goals in life are to make everybody as happy as possible. They go to work, do a job, and expect to get paid for it. Just like everybody else. As soon as people go to work, and tell their boss they do not need to pay them anymore. That they will work for free. Then they can complain.

[Tenlaar]

And exactly what do you think an expansion is ( new content...unexplored lands )...

New content? Yeah, it's completely different than every single adventure pack released since the F2P switch.

WoW did not switch to a F2P model and then state that if you continue to pay the monthly fee you will have access to everything! (And by everything we really mean most things.)

Even right now http://www.ddo.com/vip states that VIPs have "Access to All Adventure Packs - Play Every Dungeon in DDO*"

*Terms & Conditions Apply. Does not include expansion packs. Content and offers may vary and are subject to change.

Need help translating that? Play every dungeon in DDO except when we decide that these adventure packs are not really adventure packs but a totally new and exciting thing that may look like adventure packs but totally aren't adventure packs, you still have to pay more for those.

[dbgager]

New content? Yeah, it's completely different than every single adventure pack released since the F2P switch.

WoW did not switch to a F2P model and then state that if you continue to pay the monthly fee you will have access to everything! (And by everything we really mean most things.)

Even right now http://www.ddo.com/vip states that VIPs have "Access to All Adventure Packs - Play Every Dungeon in DDO*"

*Terms & Conditions Apply. Does not include expansion packs. Content and offers may vary and are subject to change.

Need help translating that? Play every dungeon in DDO except when we decide that these adventure packs are not really adventure packs but a totally new and exciting thing that may look like adventure packs but totally aren't adventure packs, you still have to pay more for those.

Does not include expansion packs..read the print. Expansion means expanding the game. In other words higher level content, and higher level cap. That is exactly what they have done..Adventure packs are more content at the same levels that already exist...Giant difference.

Now as they release more epic content ( 21-25), it most likely will be free to VIP members, and others will have to pay for it.

[Tenlaar]

In other words higher level content, and higher level cap.

The increased level cap is not part of the "expansion", is it? Seems you need to re-examine your own definition of expansion. Do new adventure packs not "expand the game?"

I am aware that they specifically exclude "expansions." My point is that they arbitrarily label this new content as an expansion as opposed to just new adventure packs in order to get more money, even from somebody like myself who had already spent $50 on TP's in the last two months on top of a VIP subscription.

It is just yet another thing that made me really reconsider how much I was actually getting from the company in exchange for steady, reliable income.

[dbgager]

The increased level cap is not part of the "expansion", is it? Seems you need to re-examine your own definition of expansion. Do new adventure packs not "expand the game?"

I am aware that they specifically exclude "expansions." My point is that they arbitrarily label this new content as an expansion as opposed to just new adventure packs in order to get more money, even from somebody like myself who had already spent $50 on TP's in the last two months on top of a VIP subscription.

It is just yet another thing that made me really reconsider how much I was actually getting from the company in exchange for steady, reliable income.

IS this your first MMO. I take it you have never purchased an expansion before. MY defintion of an expansion is exactly what every expansion I have ever purchased has been. What do you expect an expansion to be in this game. The game is just 100s of adventure packs tied together, and that is exactly what any expansion will be. As far as getting more money. They are a business..That is what businesses do. If you can't afford it then don't buy it. If you cannot give them money then they do not want you or need you anyway. They absorb the small % of totally F2P players as a cost of doing business under this business model.

You may be a monthly subscriber...but I have subscribed to may MMOS at $15 a month, and paid for the expansions to those games. Its your choice whether to pay for the content or not, nobody is forcing you to.

[Qhualor]

I love seeing the "it's an expansion, it's totally different!" posts. All that they did was put a few things that are normally sold separately in the DDO store into a bundle and called it an expansion.

Three adventure packs, which are supposed to be (but aren't) "free" to VIP players.
A challenge pack, which is supposed to be (but isn't) "free" to VIP players.
A class, which is supposed to be (and, unlike artificer and favored soul, actually is) "free" to VIP players.

Put these individual things together and they magically become much greater than the sum of their parts - what, about $80 greater?

Epic Destinies are a fundamental character progression in epic levels and should not be a purchase-only feature.

is their even a difference between questing in Eberron and questing in FR? i mean, all it is is a FR story that they connected to Eberron and voila! its an expansion.

[UltraMonk2]

A class, which is supposed to be (and, unlike artificer and favored soul, actually is) "free" to VIP players.

Artificer and Favored Soul are free to all players.

[dbgager]

is their even a difference between questing in Eberron and questing in FR? i mean, all it is is a FR story that they connected to Eberron and voila! its an expansion.

Thats how the game works..a bunch of quest packs, and quest areas all hooked together. There is no real map. There is no other way for them to do it. It has to link to somewhere in Eberron..or you could not get there.

I mean when you leave the Island after your first few levels to go to Stormreach..all you get is a loading screen, and poof your in the harbor, even though you have travelled hundreds of miles. Same difference. They would have to totally redesign the game to make it any different.

[Tenlaar]

Artificer and Favored Soul are free to all players.

They are unlockable per server, not freely given and available for VIPs. You can't go to a server you've never played on and make one.

[Tenlaar]

IS this your first MMO. I take it you have never purchased an expansion before.

Please, get over yourself and lose the haughty attitude. I have played nearly every MMO under the sun since Everquest launched.


The game is just 100s of adventure packs tied together

That is exactly the point. They either want a model where small amounts of content can be picked through and chosen individually and call them adventure packs, or they want to do larger chunks of content and call them expansions.

To switch from one method to the other (this being the only "expansion" in the six years the game has been around) at this point in the game by making it so that the smaller, individual pieces of an area (which are even identified as three separate adventure packs in the expansion info) can only be purchased as a larger bundle called an expansion seems to me to serve no purpose but charging VIPs for what they have been granted by their monthly payment this whole time.


As far as getting more money. They are a business..That is what businesses do. If you can't afford it then don't buy it. If you cannot give them money then they do not want you or need you anyway. They absorb the small % of totally F2P players as a cost of doing business under this business model.

This simply makes it look like you didn't bother to read (or maybe just think about) what you were replying to. I don't have a problem with them making money. This is not about them not just giving it away to everybody for free. I started playing this game when it was subscription only, I don't care one whit about completely F2P players. This is about the treatment of people who do pay them and honoring their own chosen methods.


You may be a monthly subscriber...but I have subscribed to may MMOS at $15 a month, and paid for the expansions to those games.

DDO and it's F2P model are worlds away from any game before, and to deny that is nothing but willful ignorance. They made the game about small transactions, picking and choosing exactly what you want, and paying for just that.

[dbgager]

Please, get over yourself and lose the haughty attitude. I have played nearly every MMO under the sun since Everquest launched.



That is exactly the point. They either want a model where small amounts of content can be picked through and chosen individually and call them adventure packs, or they want to do larger chunks of content and call them expansions.

To switch from one method to the other (this being the only "expansion" in the six years the game has been around) at this point in the game by making it so that the smaller, individual pieces of an area (which are even identified as three separate adventure packs in the expansion info) can only be purchased as a larger bundle called an expansion seems to me to serve no purpose but charging VIPs for what they have been granted by their monthly payment this whole time.



This simply makes it look like you didn't bother to read (or maybe just think about) what you were replying to. I don't have a problem with them making money. This is not about them not just giving it away to everybody for free. I started playing this game when it was subscription only, I don't care one whit about completely F2P players. This is about the treatment of people who do pay them and honoring their own chosen methods.



DDO and it's F2P model are worlds away from any game before, and to deny that is nothing but willful ignorance. They made the game about small transactions, picking and choosing exactly what you want, and paying for just that.

Its right there in black and white..Expansions are not free to VIPS. If you don't like there definition of an expansion..or are not happy with the service they are providing you you are free to leave at any time. They do not owe you anything They provide you a service, and you decide if it is worth the money they charge. Crying on these forums will change nothing.

Buy it or don't buy it. I don't give a ****. Its not going to change.

Oh by the way taking WOW as an example...even though I could use a multitude of other MMOS as examples.

1st expansion...Burning Crusade...levels 60-70...$39.99
2nd expansion...Wrath of the Lich King...levels 70-80...$39.99
3rd expansion...Cataclysm...levels 80-85...$39.99
Upcoming expansion...not sure of the name I don't play the game anymore...$39.99

These people still pay a $15 subscription fee. If you do not understand the concept I do not know what to tell you. Oh and WOW also has a F2P model..First 20 levels. NO game is locked into 1 way of making money. They are going to do what ever makes them money. Especially in the MMO market where there is so much competition. Everquest II I believe had 8 paid expansions...plus a monthly subscriber fee. OMG!!! DDO 1 expansion in 6 years..they are really taking it to their customers.

Oh by the way there purpose is to make some profit ( "seems to me to serve no purpose" ) ..I am suprised you do not understand that..they are a business after all. That is what they do

[UltraMonk2]

They are unlockable per server, not freely given and available for VIPs. You can't go to a server you've never played on and make one.

Nevertheless they are still free for all players, same as Drow, but people usually never mention the Drow when making such complaints as not much effort is needed to get Drow.

So is the complaint actually about that it requires some effort to unlock those two classes on a per server basis to play them but people try to disguise it as a 'purchase' complaint to muddle the facts deliberately? Just curious because a lot of people make the claim that Artificer's and Favored Soul's must be purchased to play them when it is not the case at all.

[Ryiah]

Please, get over yourself and lose the haughty attitude. I have played nearly every MMO under the sun since Everquest launched.

Then you would know that expansions typically require a one-time purchase, in addition to any subscription fees, to gain access to wouldn't you?

[toaf]

ya turbine screwed the pooch on this one. making the VIP's feel like less then VIP thats forsure

[Uska]

Just about every mmo in exsistence has charged VIP's and lifetime accounts for expansions this one was no exception and we just got somemore quests for free so I am very happy(very long term VIP here)

[Uska]

ya turbine screwed the pooch on this one. Making the vip's feel like less then vip thats forsure

nope

[Uska]

The increased level cap is not part of the "expansion", is it? Seems you need to re-examine your own definition of expansion. Do new adventure packs not "expand the game?"

I am aware that they specifically exclude "expansions." My point is that they arbitrarily label this new content as an expansion as opposed to just new adventure packs in order to get more money, even from somebody like myself who had already spent $50 on TP's in the last two months on top of a VIP subscription.

It is just yet another thing that made me really reconsider how much I was actually getting from the company in exchange for steady, reliable income.

YOU get the expanded levels ed's arent part of that directly either buy them or dont get them its really rather simple.

[Dysmetria]

ya turbine screwed the pooch on this one. making the VIP's feel like less then VIP thats forsureIt isn't Turbine, it is the small handful of VIPs that purposely convince themselves to feel less than VIP, by uselessly getting upset over the slightest perceived affronts to their delicate sensibilities and jaded opinions of how they should be treated. Then they come here to whine and wallow in their own misery, spamming their negativity and ignoring everyone that tries to talk some sense into them.

Meanwhile the rest of the VIPs are happily playing the game and feeling like VIPs. They had no problem with grinding favor for drow and artificers and favored souls, and paid for the expansion without any misgivings.

[Vormaerin]

The pre order pack had so much value in it that it was likely worthwhile even without the expansion content.

A lifetime supply of Tomes of Experience? Even if you never make another character and just use your 10 existing ones, that's over 10,000 TP. Plus there's 2k TP, a greater xp elixir for every character, a couple thousand TP worth of existing packs (in case you have to drop VIP for a bit, I suppose), veteran II, and the bonus stuff (panther, mask, etc).

So call it 14,000 TP for $80. Not a bad deal. But wait, there's more! You also get 4k worth of expansion pack material.

Even if you didn't pre order, you can get the expansion material out of your automatic Turbine points if you just saved the ones between the announcement of the pack and the present. So no extra money spent there.

VIPs are absolutely not getting cheated here. We got U13, U14 (druids/Eveningstar challenges), U15, and probably U16 this year included in our subscription. Which would have been a pretty good release rate even without the expansion.

If Turbine suddenly starts releasing 2-3 expansions per year or one that is clearly just a repackaged update (4-5 quests and not much else), then there would be a problem. One expansion in 6 years is not a rip off.

[Ilrede]

First, sorry for the wall of text. I wanted write smaller post, but ...

Be ViP in the current state of the game is not worth it, unless someone wants play for short time (maybe 3 months) and wants see "all", what game offers. Or maybe ViP can be good for new people, who dont know, how this game works.

I was one of them, when i started with DDO. I played others MMOs before, where monthly fee is standard, so i have not had problem with monthly payment. ViP status in DDO offered me, that i can have acces to all, so i was satisfied with this choice. First dissapointing was not aaces to favoured soul and drow (even if i didnt want play them). But ok, i could live with this and with first "free" TP as monthly bonus for ViP i have bought Favoured Soul. I didnt know much about favour mechanics as new player.

I was happy with my ViP for long time. Didnt think about how much is worth to be ViP, or not. I just have enjoyed nice game and monthly payment has been acceptable. First bigger dissapointing was artificier, but final nail to my coffer is last "expansion" and bussines strategy with this.

They take few adventures, mixed it with new class, new mechanics what should be free for everyone and add few useless thing (useless for me and lot of ViP) and we have collectors edition for 80 dollars. Are they serious ? Dont think so. Sorry, dont take me wrong, but DDO is not first class MMO. First class MMO is game like WoW. And you cant compare content with first "expansion" in DDO and any of the expansion in WoW. Each expansion in WoW is much (really much more) massive than first "expansion" in DDO, and for the same or lower price. Yes, you have to pay for expansion in WoW, but more content (raid) what will come with patches you will get for free (except monthly payment ofc).

Why i am not playing WoW then ? I played WoW for more than 2 years, but i am not satisfied with changes to game system, so i left this game. Why i am playing DDO ? Because i am "old" DnD player and i like it. I like character variability in DDO and game mechanic and quests are very nice. I am only missing open world with better interaction betwen players like in other MMOs, but i can live with this, because DDO is different type of game.

I prefer monthly payment. I can afford it to acceptable value (about 15 dollars / euros). But i want "all" for it. When i played WoW, i had all what i need for full enjoying the game. Of course, i could buy extra thing like pets, various accout support, etc, but i dont need it for playing game. Its my choise, if i want spend extra money for game.

If i would pay for DDO, i want "all" too. I am ok, when i will not get for free pets, armor kits, extra character slots, super bags, etc, because they are something extra. But adventures (quests), game system (enhancements, destinies, classes, races) i should have accesible. I would rather pay 15 euro per month and dont have 500 "free" turbine points, shared bank, etc, and have acces to all adventures and game system, like that type of "expansion".

Btw, when i started play DDO, one of my reason to be ViP with monthly fee was, that i wanted support people behind this game (developers) for good fun what i have. Today i am not sure about it, because i have feeling, that i am stupid, if i am ViP.

Ok, few numbers.
I have one year subscribtion and i paid 99 (dollars / euro / something, doesnt matter) for it. For one year i will get 6000 TP too (i will not count free TP from favor). Because i am ViP, i cannot buy anything important for me, what has ViP for free (adventure packs, races, classes), especially, when on DDO market are permanently good sales, like 50% for classes / races few months ago, or -35 % for adventure packs. I can buy other things from DDO shop, but clearly, i dont need it for simple playing.

When i will cancel my subscribtion after this one year (with any reason), i will be premium and i will have 6000 TP, but no paid adventure packs and no paid races and classes (+ few other things not important for me). Of course, in this one year i can "finish" my character, do TR few times, get a lot of items, etc. But i cant continue playing (technically yes, but ...) without spending money.

How many TP i can buy with 99$ ? What i see on DDO market, i can buy about 11k TP, but with good sales much more. With good sales on TP bundles and good sales on adventure packs, classes, etc i can buy all important adventure packs and few more things important for me. Can i buy it all with 6000 TP what i got from ViP for one year ? Absolutelly no, and dont forget, that 99$ is for one year if i will pay once for whole year. With monthly payments it will be much more.

Of course, i can still pay for another ViP year and have more what i would have for 11k TP, but after this year i will be in the same situation like now. No packs and other things. But as premium i will still have all what i bought for 11k TP. With 2 years ViP membership i could have 12k TP if i would not use them, and can buy the same as premium, but in this time as premium i can buy another good things on sale with -xx %. Can you see the point ? When i am playing long, my ViP benefits is smaller and smaller. This is not true ViP, like it should be. True ViP should be bigger and bigger with time, or at least stable (like is usuall in the world), not smaller.

So for me, when my subscribtion dissaper, i will go to premium and i will buy only what i will need. I have 5th life now and after enhancement update i want my 6th and final life. To the end of my ViP i want be 20+ (i hope). I dont have (dont want) more character than one, i dont need shared bank and i will not need most of lower level adventures. For me, it will be win, because i will pay less money for playing and i will have all what i want. Will it be win for Turbine (Warner or someone) win too ? I dont know and i dont care about it with their current bussines strategy. Before "expansion" i would be ViP, will pay monthly and wouldnt care about how much is worth it vs premium. But not now.

[Camellias]

I see, i was under the impression that 'expansion', 'adventure pack' and 'update' could be used interchangeably in DDO. Clearly, there is a 29$ dollar difference in the terms.

Thank you djl, chance2000, Tenlaar and Ilrede for your comprehensive and knowledgable post.

I guess I'll have to hoard my VIP DDO points for a few months and spend them on that expansion pack to have access to those new game mechanics. It does set a sad precedent tho, hopefully it won't become a costum.

Camellias

[dterror]

The 10% is ok, but I would rather that the house P 'go faster' necklace worked all the time instead of having a single charge. I hate the slow run speed. I want to run faster everywhere all the time. If you aren't going to let me do it in quests (and I am a rogue, so I would prefer not to run in any quest anyway), that is fine. Let me run as fast as I can everywhere else.

While you do have to manually activate it every time you log on or leave a quest, as long as you don't enter a private instance (quest, explorer), it is a permanent effect until you log out...so basically you DO get to run faster everywhere else all the time.

[Gremmlynn]

Yep, Turbine really messed up here. They should have made the FR gateway what the expansion bought and made all content there free to VIP's as well as putting the only Fatespinner in Eveningstar. It would have better differentiated what they mean by expansion.

That way VIP's would have gotten everything they are used to getting, just wouldn't be able to get to it, or any other FR content that comes out, without buying the expansion. Same goes for Epic Destinies, they'd get them for free, just not access to the NPC needed to select their starting destiny without the expansion.

[Ungood]

The Menace of the Under Dark Expansion is the ideal time to convert from ViP to Premium membership, the largest pack includes all the Ebberon Epic quests, as well as all the original Forgotten Realms Quest and Epic Destinies.

Making it a great pack for players who want to consider making the transition from ViP to Premium, without dealing with wondering when to buy packs or what packs to buy.

If you were considering converting from ViP to Premium now is a great time to do it, and the Expansion is a great way to make it happen.

[captain1z]

VIPs?.

Totally agreeing with you.
DDO's delivery method has always been to add a mod, update or adventure pack (whatever you want to call them) to the game and make it 100% accessible by its vips. Others needed to buy it a la carte, equating this to wows method doescnot work as they dont have any free customers or pay as you go customers.

The level cap has increased by 2 at point along the line, from 10 at no cost and really, epic destinies fall into this category imo. The difference between a level 21 with and without ED is extreme, there really is no point in leveling beyond 20 w/o access to ED's.

So abitrarely adventure packs were thrown together and labelled an expansion but wasnt gianthold, meridia, the shavarath and subterranea all expansion packs also. Its another gray area that they have decided to slap a price tag on.

I can guarentee you it would have sold more if it was offered the same way other packs were previously offered from the start.
VIPs having access to it would have kept the incentive of being vip, now it makes more sense not to be.

[DanteEnFuego]

One of my favorite VIP perks is just playing them game at any time at any difficulty and not having to write lengthy posts here complaining about contractual terms of service and purchase... I can see valid arguments for Premium too, but VIP is easy.

[dbgager]

Totally agreeing with you.
DDO's delivery method has always been to add a mod, update or adventure pack (whatever you want to call them) to the game and make it 100% accessible by its vips. Others needed to buy it a la carte, equating this to wows method doescnot work as they dont have any free customers or pay as you go customers.

The level cap has increased by 2 at point along the line, from 10 at no cost and really, epic destinies fall into this category imo. The difference between a level 21 with and without ED is extreme, there really is no point in leveling beyond 20 w/o access to ED's.

So abitrarely adventure packs were thrown together and labelled an expansion but wasnt gianthold, meridia, the shavarath and subterranea all expansion packs also. Its another gray area that they have decided to slap a price tag on.

I can guarentee you it would have sold more if it was offered the same way other packs were previously offered from the start.
VIPs having access to it would have kept the incentive of being vip, now it makes more sense not to be.

WOW has a F2P service till level 20...

A lot of you really do not understand . Turbine does not provide these games to make you happy. They do it to make money, and whatever they think will make them the most money is the path they will take. That is just like every single other business in existence. Its called capatilism. Companies make there own rules. As long as they are not breaking the agreement that is part of the VIP service..then you have little room to complain. The game is nothing but adventure packs..that is how it works. There is no map. So any expansion will be just that..A collection of adventure packs. People keep saying there just a bunch of adventure packs..well...duh.

My advice is if you don't like it don't buy it.

Oh ..and when this game goes down the tube because people do not want turbine to make an adequate profit...don't complain either.

[Tenlaar]

My advice is if you don't like it don't buy it.

It's a good thing nobody asked for your advice. Stop acting like people who disagree with you just can't possibly fathom your oh so very complex thoughts. If you have something more worthwhile to add than "you guys are so stupid, you just can't understand, like it or stop playing," please do. Until then, know that nobody is interested in your belittling attitude.

Disagreeing with something is different than not understanding it.

[captain1z]

WOW has a F2P service till level 20...

A lot of you really do not understand . Turbine does not provide these games to make you happy. They do it to make money, and whatever they think will make them the most money is the path they will take. That is just like every single other business in existence. Its called capatilism. Companies make there own rules. As long as they are not breaking the agreement that is part of the VIP service..then you have little room to complain. The game is nothing but adventure packs..that is how it works. There is no map. So any expansion will be just that..A collection of adventure packs. People keep saying there just a bunch of adventure packs..well...duh.

My advice is if you don't like it don't buy it.

I agree with this statement completely. I does seem like thier intent has little to do with making us happy and more to do with making money. But there is another piece of the puzzle, trust.

Trust lets you download the game and assume there is no spyware or virus included with it. Trust lets you scroll through the eula and click accept without feeling your gonna get hosed later on. Trust is paying 15$ a month and expecting access to all content, classes and races as promised. Labelling your adventure packs as an expansion doesnt change what it is and adding disclaimers after the fact doesnt make it right.

When you sell your trust for a few dollars, it makes people read the fine print before they click on anything with your name attatched to it. A steady stream of vips paying thier bills monthly or premiums purchasing the pack, maybe the odd vip downgrading and purchasing would have equalled the same amount of revenue but over a slightly longer time.

Breach of trust, bait and switch, double dipping, price gouging all fall in the same buyer beware category. These places I cannot shop at.

[Dysmetria]

The Menace of the Under Dark Expansion is the ideal time to convert from ViP to Premium membership, the largest pack includes all the Ebberon Epic quests, as well as all the original Forgotten Realms Quest and Epic Destinies. Actually the ideal time to convert from VIP to premium was at the point one realized they would be playing DDO Unlimited for another year+.

That would maximize the likelihood of people using the TP they are farming/buying for the individual VIP perks and packs they want as a premium, and increase their opportunities to get those items on sale.

More importantly doing so would minimize the amount of cash they would waste on a VIP plan they no longer want.

[dbgager]

I agree with this statement completely. I does seem like thier intent has little to do with making us happy and more to do with making money. But there is another piece of the puzzle, trust.

Trust lets you download the game and assume there is no spyware or virus included with it. Trust lets you scroll through the eula and click accept without feeling your gonna get hosed later on. Trust is paying 15$ a month and expecting access to all content, classes and races as promised. Labelling your adventure packs as an expansion doesnt change what it is and adding disclaimers after the fact doesnt make it right.

When you sell your trust for a few dollars, it makes people read the fine print before they click on anything with your name attatched to it. A steady stream of vips paying thier bills monthly or premiums purchasing the pack, maybe the odd vip downgrading and purchasing would have equalled the same amount of revenue but over a slightly longer time.

Breach of trust, bait and switch, double dipping, price gouging all fall in the same buyer beware category. These places I cannot shop at.

NO it does not equal the same amount of money. A large influx of money for the expansion ..with VIPs for the most part staying at a stable rate will always make much more profit. Where so you see that money being made over a period of time. The only way that would happen is if they lost a large % of there VIPs because of the expansion. It not like they are not going to be making just as much or more off of VIPS after the expansion. The actual reality is they will gain even more VIPS . Lots of people are attracted to games because of expansions. So they will make a bunch of money, and enalrge there sub rate..How could that be a bad way to do business. I would like you to explain to me just how they are going to make more money by not charging for the expansion

Wow..DDO is expanding..maybe I should check it out. That is a pretty common attitude.

It says right in your VIP agreement "Expansions not included". The game has had 1 expansion in 6 years. You got to be joking if you think there is something unethical about that.

[dbgager]

It's a good thing nobody asked for your advice. Stop acting like people who disagree with you just can't possibly fathom your oh so very complex thoughts. If you have something more worthwhile to add than "you guys are so stupid, you just can't understand, like it or stop playing," please do. Until then, know that nobody is interested in your belittling attitude.

Disagreeing with something is different than not understanding it.

Well you act like they owe you something because you are a VIP. They provide a service. You pay for it. Do you think your Utilities provider, IP provider, or Cellphone service owes you something. Those services, and contracts change constantly but people understand that is a normal way for businesses to operate to stay competitive.

You do realize if they do not make enough money..Their will be no game don't you.

[captain1z]

The only way that would happen is if they lost a large % of there VIPs because of the expansion. I would like you to explain to me just how they are going to make more money by not charging for the expansion


It says right in your VIP agreement "Expansions not included". The game has had 1 expansion in 6 years. You got to be joking if you think there is something unethical about that.

You just answered your own question. Fairly common train of thought over the last few weeks:
- Why be VIP if I have to but motu anyway
- numerous posts by ppl claiming to have ended thier vip sub for a premium instead

Its happening I can assure you of this and for every 1 you can read on the forums, there may be 10 like minded individuals....conservitately.

as far as making the same money; whats the difference in charging $80 cash to a person already paying $15 a month vs. Charging $10 worth of TP to non-vips and $15 a month to vips, Just a matter of time. Unfortunately by front loading the deal some who were paying the 15 are not any longer, of those some will buy the motu pack anyway and some will not. Some who do purchase the Motu pack will say "well I just spent $80 on this so, Im not spending anymore TP or going VIP again for a few months".

Those with disposable income for whom this is thier primary hobby dont pinch pennies. Those with real world obligations and possibly multiple free accounts under one roof will not so quickly spend the $80 per account without some thought as to were the money is coming from.

Am I going to pay $80 or whatever and $15 a month and whatever amount I allow myself in TP for even 1 month and not give some serious thought to the amount of money Im spending on a f2p game?

Small micro transactions. $5 here $10 here no big deal, $15 a month no biggy. Give all of the above right now because you want to call it an expansion pack...no.

And in 6 years The burning sands was our first "expansion pack" they were gonna label it such but were in the middle of a legal battle over the dnd ip. Gianthold was our next expansion "free to our subscribers" was written all over it. Meridia was an expansion, The new player experience was an expansion, inspired quarter was an expansion, the shavarath was an expansion. I could go on but each of these added new play mechanics, classes, level caps, races and areas to the game. Many times we were given free respecs because the changes were so extreme. We didnt always have an enhancement system you know......that was an expansion.

but whatever, the only say that I have that makes any difference at all is the vote I cast with my wallet. If people pay more when they are having fun, Id say start sellinf some fun asap because its starting to look like panhandling around here.

[Uska]

You just answered your own question. Fairly common train of thought over the last few weeks:
- Why be VIP if I have to but motu anyway
- numerous posts by ppl claiming to have ended thier vip sub for a premium instead

Its happening I can assure you of this and for every 1 you can read on the forums, there may be 10 like minded individuals....conservitately.

as far as making the same money; whats the difference in charging $80 cash to a person already paying $15 a month vs. Charging $10 worth of TP to non-vips and $15 a month to vips, Just a matter of time. Unfortunately by front loading the deal some who were paying the 15 are not any longer, of those some will buy the motu pack anyway and some will not. Some who do purchase the Motu pack will say "well I just spent $80 on this so, Im not spending anymore TP or going VIP again for a few months".

Those with disposable income for whom this is thier primary hobby dont pinch pennies. Those with real world obligations and possibly multiple free accounts under one roof will not so quickly spend the $80 per account without some thought as to were the money is coming from.

Am I going to pay $80 or whatever and $15 a month and whatever amount I allow myself in TP for even 1 month and not give some serious thought to the amount of money Im spending on a f2p game?

Small micro transactions. $5 here $10 here no big deal, $15 a month no biggy. Give all of the above right now because you want to call it an expansion pack...no.

And in 6 years The burning sands was our first "expansion pack" they were gonna label it such but were in the middle of a legal battle over the dnd ip. Gianthold was our next expansion "free to our subscribers" was written all over it. Meridia was an expansion, The new player experience was an expansion, inspired quarter was an expansion, the shavarath was an expansion. I could go on but each of these added new play mechanics, classes, level caps, races and areas to the game. Many times we were given free respecs because the changes were so extreme. We didnt always have an enhancement system you know......that was an expansion.

but whatever, the only say that I have that makes any difference at all is the vote I cast with my wallet. If people pay more when they are having fun, Id say start sellinf some fun asap because its starting to look like panhandling around here.

Umm no true VIP with any brains is going to be pay 15 a month and those things your are llisting werent expanison packs yes the were additons but we have had only one expansion pack and all mmo's that have had expansion packs have charged for them EQ, SWG, WoW, DDO

and yes I am still VIP and yes I bought the expansion and I dont even pay 8.5

[captain1z]

Umm no true VIP with any brains is going to be pay 15 a month and those things your are llisting werent expanison packs yes the were additons but we have had only one expansion pack and all mmo's that have had expansion packs have charged for them EQ, SWG, WoW, DDO

and yes I am still VIP and yes I bought the expansion and I dont even pay 8.5

this is where everyone is having the difference of opinion.

What was in Motu that wasnt in any other, call them updates if you want, that makes them exempt from the "Vips get unlimited access to all content" qualifier?

Classes? Quest? Skills & enhancements? New Area? Expansion Pack, update, Mod, these are all just labels here. Its like buying an all access pass at disney and getting to an attraction only to have the attendant tell you its exempt from all access. I dare say its the same crud but plz tell me why a vip should not have access to this stuff. as a long time poster I greatly value your opinion on the matter.


its like this http://www.warcry.com/news/view/65683-Dungeons-And-Dragons-Online-DDO-Expansion-Forsaken-Lands was gonna be a paid expansion but just changed the name to mod and there yah go. Just a label.

[Ungood]

Actually the ideal time to convert from VIP to premium was at the point one realized they would be playing DDO Unlimited for another year+

While the choice should always be yours to make, and I am not advocating that anyone pick any specific payment plan, if you were considering converting from ViP to Premium, The Expansion offers a smooth and cost effective way to do so.

With the MOtUD expansion you purchase adventure packs with an active VIP sub going, this makes for a seamless transition once the VIP ends, making it the ideal way to make the conversion as smooth and painless as possible with a single purchase, which is normally a large roadblock for most people pondering the transition, what to buy, when to buy it, etc, which can be overwhelming to some. Especially people who are more casual and don't want to have to try and catch every sale.

In all honesty there has not been a better way nor a better time to make the conversion from VIP to Premium then with this expansion pack.

With the Purchase of the Expansion, waiting for sales, buying points, making lists of what to get first, and if you can buy what you want when the sub runs out, all that becomes an non-issue and allows you to focus on playing the game uninterrupted and only needing to consider the account options, like shared bank and character slots with your saved up TP.

[Camellias]

There seem to be a misconception between 'new added fees' and 'opportunity'. You say an expension pack every six years, i believe it will become turbine's new strategy.

[Tenlaar]

There seem to be a misconception between 'new added fees' and 'opportunity'. You say an expension pack every six years, i believe it will become turbine's new strategy.

Bingo. This "expansion" is no different than the variety of previous updates to the game over the years except for one thing - the addition of a price tag even for VIPs. It is all about the precedents that are being set. Instead of how the game has been for the past six years, now even VIPs have to pay for new quests. Instead of how the game has been for the past six years, now raid timers are not an important part of game balance and you can buy your way past them. Instead of how the game has been for the past six years, now massive and (arguably, though the argument against it is quite weak) fundamental increases in power are available through the DDO store. Instead of how the game has been for the past six years, now smaller increases in character power are available ONLY through the DDO store (looking at you, +2 tomes of fate.)

[dbgager]

Bingo. This "expansion" is no different than the variety of previous updates to the game over the years except for one thing - the addition of a price tag even for VIPs. It is all about the precedents that are being set. Instead of how the game has been for the past six years, now even VIPs have to pay for new quests. Instead of how the game has been for the past six years, now raid timers are not an important part of game balance and you can buy your way past them. Instead of how the game has been for the past six years, now massive and (arguably, though the argument against it is quite weak) fundamental increases in power are available through the DDO store. Instead of how the game has been for the past six years, now smaller increases in character power are available ONLY through the DDO store (looking at you, +2 tomes of fate.)

I hate to break it to you but DDO was a game with a normal subscription fee until June 6, 2009 when DDO Unlimited was released. The game itself was released February 28, 2006. SO that is not how the game has been for 6 years. It has been a game with a monthly fee, and no micro transactions for more than half of its life. They went F2P because that was the only way to make money on the game with a near non existent population. So this "Thats the way DDO has always been" is just not true. DDO has been changing there business model to save the game. You should be glad of that if you want to continue to have a game to play.

[Dysmetria]

This "expansion" is no different than the variety of previous updates to the game over the years except for one thing - the addition of a price tag even for VIPs.I don't recall any of the updates adding epic levels or epic destinies. I also don't recall any of them adding nearly as many quests all at once either.

But had the VIPs been saving their free monthly TP allowance since the expansion was first announced, there would have been no additional price tag for them.

[captain1z]

I don't recall any of the updates adding epic levels or epic destinies. I also don't recall any of them adding nearly as many quests all at once either.

But had the VIPs been saving their free monthly TP allowance since the expansion was first announced, there would have been no additional price tag for them.

call it what it is:

- epic levels are just a raise in the level cap. People like myself left because we were stuck at 20 for a very long time. A raise in the cap got some back.

- epic destinies are just enhancements for the raised cap. They were pulled out and a price tag put on them. Have you seen any of the character classes at 22-25 both with and without epic destinies? One is extremely gimped because support for his character ended at 20.

[Qaliya]

With the Purchase of the Expansion, waiting for sales, buying points, making lists of what to get first, and if you can buy what you want when the sub runs out, all that becomes an non-issue and allows you to focus on playing the game uninterrupted and only needing to consider the account options, like shared bank and character slots with your saved up TP.

I was annoyed when the expansion came out, not because I had to pay for the new content, but because Turbine deliberately did not make a high-end version designed for VIPs. I had to pay for content that was already covered by VIP, and it basically said to me what you are saying here: the expansion is an invitation to convert from VIP to premium.

And that's pretty much what I've decided to do. I cancelled my annual VIP in January, shortly after signing up for it. I've spent some TP on in-game items but still have about 9k available. I will buy more TP at the end of the year instead of signing up for VIP for a year, unless Turbine actually makes VIP membership worthwhile.

The only fly in the ointment has to do with what you said about waiting for sales -- VIPs can't buy expansion packs, probably to prevent them from doing what we are discussing. So you have to either go without some packs while you wait for sales, or pay full price.

[Dysmetria]

The only fly in the ointment has to do with what you said about waiting for sales -- VIPs can't buy expansion packs, probably to prevent them from doing what we are discussing. So you have to either go without some packs while you wait for sales, or pay full price.Every former and non-VIP that went premium had to decide between purchasing the individual VIP perks piecemeal either at full price or to wait for sales. I'm unsure how that is a fly in the ointment, people face the same choice for many goods and services daily.

[sephiroth1084]

I love seeing the "it's an expansion, it's totally different!" posts. All that they did was put a few things that are normally sold separately in the DDO store into a bundle and called it an expansion.

Three adventure packs, which are supposed to be (but aren't) "free" to VIP players.
A challenge pack, which is supposed to be (but isn't) "free" to VIP players.
A class, which is supposed to be (and, unlike artificer and favored soul, actually is) "free" to VIP players.

Put these individual things together and they magically become much greater than the sum of their parts - what, about $80 greater?

Epic Destinies are a fundamental character progression in epic levels and should not be a purchase-only feature.First of all, you WoW comparison is pretty poor; WoW was a subscription-only game for most of its lifespan and released paid expansions at least a few times. My understanding of those is that subscribing players had to purchase those expansions in order to access the new content.


According to the WoW website notes about their first expansion:
World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade (aka TBC), the first expansion (http://www.wowwiki.com/Expansion) for World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft), was announced on October 28th, 2005 and released on January 16th, 2007 in North America, Europe, and Australia, February 2nd, 2007 in Korea, April 3rd, 2007 in Taiwan and Hong Kong, and September 6th, 2007 in mainland China. The main features include an increase of the level cap, the introduction of theblood elves (http://www.wowwiki.com/Blood_elf) and the draenei (http://www.wowwiki.com/Draenei) as playable races (http://www.wowwiki.com/Race), and the addition of the world of Outland (http://www.wowwiki.com/Outland), along with many new zones (http://www.wowwiki.com/Zone), dungeons (http://www.wowwiki.com/Dungeon), items (http://www.wowwiki.com/Item), quests (http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest), and monsters (http://www.wowwiki.com/Mob).


So, in WoW, you had to buy the expansion, or you couldn't level farther, which meant you probably couldn't use any new loot; you also didn't gain access to any of the new features, such as new playables races and classes.


WoW has released 4 expansions I believe, with at least another 2 on the way--that's about 1 expansion that their "VIPs" have to purchase every couple of years. Here, in DDO, we've had one expansion in 6, and even if you didn't purchase the expansion you had access to druid, levels 21-25, the new epic feats, and the ML 21-25 gear dropping. Now it may not seem like much, but it seems to me like quite a bit more than the WoW players were getting.


As for the MotU expansion, bugs and blunders aside (and believe me, they **** me off to no end, and I haven't been quietly accepting them otherwise), MotU was the biggest update DDO has received. It has 17 new quests (and at least some of them are among the best-looking quests areas in the game), 4 enormous explorer zones (okay, Scchindylryn is big, not enormous, and the Demonweb is not huge if you put all the pieces together) featuring some new mechanics for these types of areas, a level cap raise of 5 levels, a whole new advancement system (epic destinies) that essentially amount to something somewhere between super-charged prestiges and all new classes that all characters can use, a new class with new (in the sense that they have not been used in the game before) mechanics, some serious graphics upgrades and effects, what feels like as much voice acting as DDO has had over the entirety of the rest of its life combined, new music (and some of the best DDO has had, in my opinion, though not all of it), some major changes to the loot, AC and spellcasting systems, significant changes to all of the existing epic content, 5 challenges in 3 different zones...


That's a lot of stuff they released. Sure, they could have done a lot of that as smaller releases spread out over the next year, but that's kind of the point of an expansion pack--to create a big addition to the game. I begrudge Turbine a lot of things, and I wasn't thrilled about having to buy the expansion, but there's just no real basis for bashing them on their selling separately MotU. The fact that ViPs were given a lot of notice, and could have chosen to just not spend their TP that comes with their subscription from March to August, and then buy the expansion. There, you didn't have to spend any money besides what you plunk down for your subscription already.

[Qaliya]

Every former and non-VIP that went premium had to decide between purchasing the individual VIP perks piecemeal either at full price or to wait for sales. I'm unsure how that is a fly in the ointment, people face the same choice for many goods and services daily.

I meant that in the context of the plan Ungood laid out for converting from VIP to premium. You can't really do that smoothly unless you pay "full retail" for the packs.

[Tenlaar]

I hate to break it to you but DDO was a game with a normal subscription fee until June 6, 2009 when DDO Unlimited was released.

I am well aware. And you didn't have to pay extra for the updates and newly released content for the entirety of that period. Pay the monthly fee, access to all content. Just like it was up until this point. Pay the monthly fee, access to all content. That would make it what? That's right, six years of pay the monthly fee and have access to all content.

[DanteEnFuego]

I am well aware. And you didn't have to pay extra for the updates and newly released content for the entirety of that period. Pay the monthly fee, access to all content. Just like it was up until this point. Pay the monthly fee, access to all content. That would make it what? That's right, six years of pay the monthly fee and have access to all content.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231409/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

[Tenlaar]

First of all, you WoW comparison is pretty poor

I did not start comparing DDO to other games. My only point on that front was that DDO has always been different from other games in exactly that regard. Even for the years it was strictly a monthly fee game you never had to pay for newly released content including level cap increases, new mechanics, new areas, a whole new advancement system (enhancements), major changes to loot, and all of the other changes and/or improvements to the game.


The fact that ViPs were given a lot of notice, and could have chosen to just not spend their TP that comes with their subscription from March to August, and then buy the expansion. There, you didn't have to spend any money besides what you plunk down for your subscription already.[/FONT][/COLOR]

VIPs using their monthly points to purchase the expansion instead of what it was originally intended for - which is cosmetic and convenience items, because they don't need to pay for content - is still paying for it, just in a different way.

[Ungood]

I was annoyed when the expansion came out, not because I had to pay for the new content, but because Turbine deliberately did not make a high-end version designed for VIPs. I had to pay for content that was already covered by VIP, and it basically said to me what you are saying here: the expansion is an invitation to convert from VIP to premium.

I as well, viewed it as such, especially given it was the best and easiest way to purchase packs while holding a ViP sub, allowing the conversion to be seamless and painless, in fact, the largest package deal seemed to cater to a ViP wanting to convert to Premium.


The only fly in the ointment has to do with what you said about waiting for sales -- VIPs can't buy expansion packs, probably to prevent them from doing what we are discussing. So you have to either go without some packs while you wait for sales, or pay full price.

Yes, this I can see an as an issue, needing to wait to run content with friends that you used to run while a VIP, because now you are waiting for a sale on the packs or on the TP's.

I am glad you are enjoying the fruits of your conversion. Kudos!

Personally I feel that there is a great feeling of freedom once you break the shackles of a sub.

[Ilrede]

You really cannot compare game like WoW and DDO. They are different bussines model. If DDO would have 10 mil. subscribers, do you think, that it would have "free to play" bussines model ? Dont think so ... WoW can have every expansion for extra cash, because it is different game class and they know, that people willing to pay for it anyway.

Good, that someone posted info about WoW:TBC (The Burning Crusade) as comparison to DDO. Anyone who played TBC "have to" agree, that Turbine with their DDO "expansion" is no competant for TBC. TBC has one new gigantic map with 7 large locations. Each location contains large amount of quests (different type of quests than DDO, maybe a lot of them are simple, but still ...). TBC has 16 dungeons (similar to classic DDO quests) and 9 raids (once is closed now, but was there for long time). Few of those dungeons / raids has been added not from start, but later with patches. But it was for "free" for all players, so i count them like part of expansion. And TBC has a lot of others thing, like was already posted by sephiroth. All of that was for about 35 dollars.

Are you sure now, that you can compare WoW and DDO expansion now ? Base DDO expansion is for 30 dollars, so almost like freshly new TBC. And that base edition contains 3 adventure packs and epic destinies. Are they serious ?

Ok, enough WoW and DDO comparison. From now only about DDO bussines model.

From my point of view, DDO first expansion is not good product for ViP players, especially in the current bussines model what DDO offers.

What standard expansion edition contains for ViP:
- druid class - i have it for free, so why should i buy it ?
- DDO classic adventure pack bundle - i have it for free, so why should i buy it ?
- veteran status (level 4) - many of longer playing players have it unlocked with favor. Isnt it free for ViP ? (i am not sure), so no interesting for me, easy to get without spending money
- greater tome of learning - nice item, but i can buy it with turbine points (i am saving TP for similar items)
- 1000 turbine points - nice, but i have 500 TP per month as ViP, so ...
- new adventure packs - this is what i want
- epic destinies - this is what i want

All is for 50 dollars, uhh ... But i want only adventures and destinies, so 50 dollars for that is too much. I can buy base edition for 30 dollars of course, but ViP should have adventure packs for free ...

I can stop crying and just buy base edition and have all what i want. But wait, fact, that i have no bought expansion doesnt mean, that i am not paying for DDO. I will still pay monthly fee in few future months. Price for base edition is 30 dollars, i will pay that amount in 3 months, but i will still dont have new content. I can buy it with TP, but for adventure packs + epic destinies i need almost 3500 TP, what is accumulating "free" 500 TP for 7 months ... Really ? "Free" TP for ViP should be for things like armor kits, pets, tomes, etc, not for basic content ...

Imagine 2 players.
One player is premium and used 100 dollars for buying all packs what he needed and he is lvl 20 now, waiting for expansion.
Second players is ViP and have bought one year ViP membership (100 dollars). He is lvl 20 too and waiting for expansion.

Premium player will buy expansion, for example base edition for 30 dollars, and can play new adventures and level to 25 with epic destinies. And he dont have to invest more to DDO, he will still have that and can play.

ViP players will not buy expansion, but will pay 30 dollars in next 3 months and another 10 dollars each month. But he still cant play new packs and doesnt have epic destinies. He can level to 25, but its really pointless ... If he doesnt want TR and start from lvl 1, he is locked and have to buy something, to have "full" game experience.

I understand, that there are a lot of ViP, who have bought expansion and are happy. But not everyone. DDO is game and i am willing to pay for game only limited amount of money. Monthly payment for being ViP is ok, i can pay it. I would pay extra cash for nice massive expansion (like TBC for WoW), but no with current DDO busines model. Why should i pay more, when here is cheapest way to spend money and get the same ?

[Synsuous]

While you do have to manually activate it every time you log on or leave a quest, as long as you don't enter a private instance (quest, explorer), it is a permanent effect until you log out...so basically you DO get to run faster everywhere else all the time.


That is simply inconvenient, to say the least. So, I run around the public area selling stuff and turning in collectables then I enter a quest. Then I exit the quest, log/out log back in and then use the necklace again? Which I don't think will even work, because it says 1 charge per day.

[Mathermune]

It was the subtle rise of the asterisk that made me drop my VIP subscription.

Access to all races* (mumble mumble drow are a favor unlock per server)
Access to all classes* (apart from mumble mumble FvS and artificer unlock through mumble favor per server)
Access to all adventure packs* (mumble mumble apart from the three adventure packs that are deemed an expansion pack)

Suddenly felt that I was neither a V or an I in the old VIP acronym. I'd have settled for just being an IP, but I didn't get that feeling either.

That said, when I saw the offer for the expansion did I order the $80 version in advance in a heartbeat? Of course. Love the game and the expansion gave me what? 2000TP, eight adventure packs, a free 10% xp pot permanently on every character I make until the end of time and probably other things too.

But I am an example to those who say the F2P doesn't system doesn't work. I will still drop $80 on an expansion if I think it'll be worth it (it isn't yet, bugs, belongs in a separate thread, or rather at the end of one of the 20 threads already out there) or if there's a sale for triple bonus points I'll drop $50 on TP if I want something badly enough.

I wouldn't have stuck around if the option of F2P wasn't there, I'd have found another game to play.

[Vormaerin]

Why should i pay more, when here is cheapest way to spend money and get the same ?

Because you fail at math if you think your post is an actual comparison of costs.

The VIP plan currently provides somewhere between 28-30 thousand TP worth of content conditional on maintaining your subscription.

You can't directly compare the choice between the basic pack and a three month sub unless you've already paid that 30k worth of TP long enough ago that the sub would have cost as much.

Further, the VIP sub gives you druids, the eveningstar challenge pack, and 1500 TP that are not part of the basic plan purchase. That TP would pay for EDs right there, with change. Oh, and a June/July/Aug sub would also give you U15's pack, which a premium would need to pay for.

There are situations where premium is a better plan. But nothing in your rant represents such a case.

[Ilrede]

Maybe i am wrong, maybe not. Fact is, that for 2 years of my ViP membership i paid more than 200 dollars for DDO. I paid monthly from start, later once per 3 months and second year i paid once for whole year. I bough one TP bundle too (biggest one with 11000 TP). So i think that my investition to DDO in 2 years is something about 250 dollars, maybe a bit more. Currently the biggest point bundle what i can see on DDO store is 23k TP for 200 dollars, so i can say, that i already paid for content worth of something like 30k TP.

But when i cancel my subscribtion, what i will have ? I will have Favoured Soul, what i have bought from start, artificier, what i have bought later, collectable and ingredients bags (the biggest version), greater experience tome and supreme +3 tome on my character and its all. I will not have single bonus adventure pack, becuase ViP cant buy it, i wil not have any of race of class what is free to ViP, because ViP cant buy it.

If i would not be ViP and just instead used 250 dollars for buying TP, first i think that i would have more than 30k TP, and second, i could use good sales and buy things a lot cheaper. So i would have all what ViP offers (wort of 30k TP as you wrote) and have extra TP for future use, or using on other things, like tomes, armor kits, etc. I would have it all forever.

But again, why should i buy expansion, except, that i want donate Turbine a bit more ? When i am ViP and want to be ViP in the future, i dont need old adventure packs. All other items over adventure packs (panther, mask, tome, etc) are nice, but they are something like cosmetics. Of course, i think, that few people have bought collector edition just for panther or mask. Their choise. And for adventure packs in expansion, i will pay for it later in my ViP membership, like i paid for "old" content in 2 years. Of course, when i cancel my subscribtion, i will not have it, but i can accept it. As player who prefer monthly paymenths, when i will cancel subscribtion, i will not play this game anyway, so ...

In my view, ViP should have always advantage over premium. And i dont want say, that premium is something less worth. But with ViP membership they have money for "sure", especially when someone pay once per year and money are charged from start of that year. Premium can buy TP, but dont have to. Depends on lot of factors.

When i will make 2 groups of game content, one group is for adventure packs, classes and races. ViP should get it all for free, because they are needed for full game experience (see all what game offers). Premium can buy TP and buy all in this first group and can have the same fun as ViP (price could be aproximatelly the same, but with good sales possible little lower).

Second group of content should be for rest of things, what DDO Shop offers. Things like Gretaer experience tome, Ability tomes, shared bank, huge bags, etc are nice to have, but absolutelly not needed for playing game. And of course other things like armor kits, pets, guess passes for friends and various consumables are nice way for player to willing spend more money for game and i think that lot of players already do it.

So 500 TP what ViP get each months should be used to buy things from second group as something extra and when ViP wants more than what is worth 500 TP, than he can buy extra TP. But when is ViP "forced" buy something what he should have for free (adventure packs), there is something wrong. ViP cannot feel like ViP more. Except for reason, that someone wants donate extra money to Turbine.

[Mathermune]

I wonder if turbine put in a "one off" VIP package. How many would take it up?

So for example lets take a number. $200, and rather than 23000 turbine points. It gives you access to all the stuff VIP normally would. All adventure packs* All races* All classes* Elite difficulty unlocking, level 1 shared bank, all that jazz.

*joke is a few posts back


I will not have single bonus adventure pack, becuase ViP cant buy it, i wil not have any of race of class what is free to ViP, because ViP cant buy it.

This, combined with the need to buy things like epic destinies and the three adventure packs that make the expansion is exactly the kind of thing I mean.

I was VIP for about 9 months, don't regret a day of it. Just by the end, wasn't a V or an I.