Ring of Fire Mat reward is still borked

[crazydamage]

Every other challenge pays out an acceptable amount.

Enchanted moss ~430/run

Fey Toadstools ~ 250/run
Silver Falcons ~250/run


Golden Lions ~ 130 / run. FAIL

These are 4 or 5 star runs CR 25-30.
In reality, 4 star runs of the eveningstar cavern challenges (Ring of Fire, Fight to Finish) are more efficient time-wise, because the 5th star boss adds 3 minutes to the clock, and the Red Dragon boss has an insane amount of HP.

[crazydamage]

waiting for dev response

[crazydamage]

Copper thumbs were apparently corrected. Waiting for a response on Golden Lions

[Steelstar]

Hello!

Some ingredient types in the Eveningstar Challenges are granted in smaller amounts, as recipes require fewer of that ingredient relative to other ingredients. If you believe there is an issue with the number of ingredients being paid out in a Challenge, please file a bug report that includes the following:

- Name of the Challenge (as you have here)
- Character level of each party member that entered the Challenge, including Hirelings
- The CR at which you ran the Challenge
- The Score you had when the Challenge concluded
- The number of ingredients you received at the end of the Challenge

Thank you!

[crazydamage]

Your "different amounts of mats" automated response is wrong because there are 3 types of cloaks, Dragon Wolf and Bear

Bear requires:

400/400/1600 = 2400 Golden Lions
800/1600/3200 = 5600 Silver Falcons
400/800/1600 = 2800 Enchanted Moss
400/800/1600 = 2800 Fey Toadstools

Dragon Requires:
400 / 800 / 1600 = 2800 Golden Lions
200/400/800 = 1400 Platinum Tricrowns
400/800/1600 = 2800 Enchanted Moss
400/800/1600 = 2800 Fey Toldstools


Perhaps, instead of encouraging your players to bug report everything, since you actually took the time to come view or give a "automated" reply to this concern, maybe you should actually investigate WHY people think there is a problem and why they bothered to post it on the forum.

In reality, both Golden Lions and Silver Falcons both give a HORRIBLE rate of return, we are talking over 20 runs just to farm enough of that ingredient to get enough for any cloak.
40 Runs for any cloak that requires both of them, and 60 runs since bear requires 5600 silver falcons.

60 runs x 10 minutes = 600 minutes = 10 hours. That is not taking into account the other 2 ingredients required (moss/toadstools/platinum tricrowns).

I know that if I bug report this, chances are it will never be corrected.

[Capt_Ahab]

... we are talking over 20 runs just to farm enough of that ingredient to get enough for any cloak.
40 Runs for any cloak that requires both of them, and 60 runs since bear requires 5600 silver falcons.

60 runs x 10 minutes = 600 minutes = 10 hours. That is not taking into account the other 2 ingredients required (moss/toadstools/platinum tricrowns).

I know that if I bug report this, chances are it will never be corrected.

I'm fairly knew to the epic scene, but isn't this approximately equivalent to the amount of time it took to farm top end epic items pre U14?

[deahamlet]

I'm fairly knew to the epic scene, but isn't this approximately equivalent to the amount of time it took to farm top end epic items pre U14?

That is most certainly not how long it takes to farm tier 3 Cannith challenge items.

[redspecter23]

I don't mean to point out the obvious if it's already known, but are you killing all 3 mimics for the extra points? It may not be the cause of this problem, but I know it makes a difference in your end score by a significant amount if you don't kill all 3.

[Cinos]

I keep getting like 80 of them per run.

They're used in the same quantities as the dryad moss, of which I get about 300 per run.

[MrCow]

Silver Falcons ~250/run


Golden Lions ~ 130 / run. FAIL

This would be correct for Golden Lions. The ratio of Golden Lions required compared to Silver Falcons is half, for trading in for items. So it is expected that you will receive half the amount of Golden Lions you would compared to Silver Falcons, for an equivalent score.

[Cinos]

This would be correct for Golden Lions. The ratio of Golden Lions required compared to Silver Falcons is half, for trading in for items. So it is expected that you will receive half the amount of Golden Lions you would compared to Silver Falcons, for an equivalent score.

On the other hand, you need as many Golden Lions as you need Moss/Toadstools and the latter two drop at least 2x.

[ViolentEnd]

130/run sounds a bit low, unless you are solo. In a group, 220 - 250 is a more average score from my experience. If you maximize your score every run, it takes significantly fewer total runs to gather the mats you need.
As pointed out above, the mimics are worth 50 points each, so you can gain 150 more to your score even without killing the dragon (if that's the route you want to go).

I'm not defending the drop rates (I wish they were higher), but just saying there are ways to lessen the grind.

[Docherty]

I keep getting like 80 of them per run.

They're used in the same quantities as the dryad moss, of which I get about 300 per run.

This is the incongruity right here - anyone sitting down to grind a dragon cloak sees it, and it's FUBAR.

Just take another look at what you've done here Turbine?

[munificence]

Hello!

Some ingredient types in the Eveningstar Challenges are granted in smaller amounts, as recipes require fewer of that ingredient relative to other ingredients. If you believe there is an issue with the number of ingredients being paid out in a Challenge, please file a bug report that includes the following:

- Name of the Challenge (as you have here)
- Character level of each party member that entered the Challenge, including Hirelings
- The CR at which you ran the Challenge
- The Score you had when the Challenge concluded
- The number of ingredients you received at the end of the Challenge

Thank you!

What's the point of posting if you aren't actually going to read the thread and respond? The OP made a pretty clear post about what's not working here.

[Steelstar]

What's the point of posting if you aren't actually going to read the thread and respond? The OP made a pretty clear post about what's not working here.

We have definitely been keeping an eye on the thread; there has not been a response because we cannot get a clear picture of what is happened in crazydamage's particular case without the information requested above. There are many ways to get an ingredient payout around that number that would be working as intended, many of which have already been mentioned in this thread. It could also be a bug. Since the number of ingredients paid out is directly tied to Score, it's hard to tell without knowing both the score and the number of ingredients received if the number of ingredients received in this case is by design. The information about CR and character level will help us determine if any modifiers should have been applied to Score, and if they are applying correctly.

The information requested will help us determine if there is a bug, and if so, to find it and fix it more quickly.

[jakeelala]

Devs:

The fact with the challenges is that you get about half as many (or less) mats trying to do them solo than you do in a group. Since challenges were designed to be able to quickly pop-into for some xp and mats and eventual rewards, maybe you should design some challenges that payout well for doing them solo. By making a group required to get a decent return on time you've COMPLETELY nullified the entire point of putting the challenges in (according to your own reasoning).

[rimble]

Well, solo on my 25 Monk I can get 70 on a good run. That's running it at level 27, with no nameds. If the Wizard pops, I get the chest and one mimic, that usually gets me to 85 mats. I would say my Monk is 'Above Average', but is of course traversing useless EDs because of the poor implementation of that system, so my EDs aren't necessarily helping a whole lot.

The only reason this is even vaguely acceptable is that I need to grind xp for EDs anyways, so might as well grind it here while getting a pitiful small amount of mats. Haven't done all the math comparing how many mats I get from each challenge, but off the cuff I think I'm looking at over 100 runs of challenges for a Level 24 cloak. It's 34 runs just for Golden Lions (approximating 70 mats per run)...so really, more than 150 total runs I think.

I did 5-Star it at Level 25 in a full group, everything except the extra mimics, and got 145 mats (581 score). If only I could get a group together for 96 hours to run through the approximately 65 challenge repetitions (across all four challenges) I would need.

First: Nothing in the Cannith Challenges took anywhere near this much.

Second: I could run another character that was better at challenges than my Monk, I don't have that option here.

So, I dunno what the vision of endgame is for the devs...but just so you know, I'd say these challenges, on average, might need to be repeated 25 times EACH (30ish for me) for one cloak...it's not terribly fun.

I'm somewhat thankful that I've given up on the game enough that I'm only really focusing on my Monk...I can't fathom the horror of grinding these things out across multiple characters. So, I dunno, if "that's what you get for soloing" is your answer, that's fine, but you should know it sucks pretty bad. Heaven forbid you want a level 16, 20, and 24 one to use as you TR.

[esheep]

Devs:

The fact with the challenges is that you get about half as many (or less) mats trying to do them solo than you do in a group. Since challenges were designed to be able to quickly pop-into for some xp and mats and eventual rewards, maybe you should design some challenges that payout well for doing them solo. By making a group required to get a decent return on time you've COMPLETELY nullified the entire point of putting the challenges in (according to your own reasoning).

Actually "solo" only challenges sound pretty awesome -- so long as the rewards are tailored to the focus of the challenge (ie a challenge that required heavy casting classes and rewarded awesome melee stuff would be poorly thought out).

[Missing_Minds]

We have definitely been keeping an eye on the thread; there has not been a response because we cannot get a clear picture of what is happened in crazydamage's particular case without the information requested above. There are many ways to get an ingredient payout around that number that would be working as intended, many of which have already been mentioned in this thread. It could also be a bug. Since the number of ingredients paid out is directly tied to Score, it's hard to tell without knowing both the score and the number of ingredients received if the number of ingredients received in this case is by design. The information about CR and character level will help us determine if any modifiers should have been applied to Score, and if they are applying correctly.

The information requested will help us determine if there is a bug, and if so, to find it and fix it more quickly.

Steel, just a comment about the Cannith Challenges.

I'm finding it impossible to get enough ingredients to get the tier 1 lvl 20 items within a reasonable time frame. Given the quests for those materials only go up to 20, the reduction you get for being over leveled is very painful.
The epic quests go up to 25 so no issues there, but the cap at 20 makes it impossible for me.

[Yan_PL]

Point was, that to make an item requiring Platinum Tricrowns, you usually require more runs per item than with other materials. Overall process of making Adamantine Cloaks is quite lengthy, which leads to frustration and rage, directed mostly at ingredient that seems most time consuming.

Also, the fact that grouping makes you get less ingredients per minute totally wrecks opinion of challenges being solo-friendly, and makes people who like soloing stuff have negative attitude towards challenges - as they seem to be penalized for their playstyle.

This is even more frustrating if you consider the fact that ingreds are Bound to Character, and not to account - as you can't bring the character that you would see fit into the group, you need to bring character that you're gonna be making the items on. Binding of Eveningstar challenge mats and commendations is too strict - I'd like to see something like combination of 'Binds to Account on Acquire' and 'Binds to Character on Equip' - or something like Bound Crafted items from Cannith Crafting or Items from House C challenges - you can gather ingredients on any character you'd like to, and make the actual item on character you're gonna use it on.

In addition to following, chests in challenges are 'shared' in the location for purposes of 'ransacking' them - and it's irritating that to make a single Adamantine Cloak, you need to run challenges so many times that you're gonna get 'ransack' chest level penalty. Especially on those challenges that you need 2 ingredient types from - like Great Tree + Defenseless for Dragon cloak. Those chests getting ransacked before you're done with 1 cloak strikes me as not entirely the best idea. Bad ingredient payouts, lousy XP, and chests getting ransacked before you're done - those are the things that people dislike challenges for. The only redeeming feature is possibility of Flawless Red Dragonscales appearing in chests in Ring of Fire - yet, you can go thru ransack before seeing one of them.

I don't know the exact reason of challenges working so - but regardless of this being by design or bugged, those aspects of challenges might be worth reconsidering. I hope that my feedback won't be overlooked - as I tried to represent not just mine opinion, but also opinion of friends/guildies that don't use forums.

I'd also like to point out that, with overall negative opinions on challenges coming from many players, I believe those won't be your 'top bestsellers'. Now that MotU stuff is available in DDO Store, and players are able to actually buy Destinies and Faerun adventures without buying challenges (as opposed to your only choice being to buy expansion as a whole package), this should be even more apparent. Devs, you might want to check sales stats of Eveningstar Challenge Pack for confirmation of the fact that Eveningstar Challenge pack is the weakest link in expansion content. I believe that, elimination of issues I highlighted will make challenges more appealing to players.

[Crazyfruit]

... might need to be repeated 25 times EACH (30ish for me) for one cloak...it's not terribly fun.

Not much different than spending an hour in a raid 20 times. You could always settle for one of the lower level cloaks unless you're having fun? Thanks devs for including that option.

[ddonoobgamer]

We have definitely been keeping an eye on the thread; there has not been a response because we cannot get a clear picture of what is happened in crazydamage's particular case without the information requested above. There are many ways to get an ingredient payout around that number that would be working as intended, many of which have already been mentioned in this thread. It could also be a bug. Since the number of ingredients paid out is directly tied to Score, it's hard to tell without knowing both the score and the number of ingredients received if the number of ingredients received in this case is by design. The information about CR and character level will help us determine if any modifiers should have been applied to Score, and if they are applying correctly.

The information requested will help us determine if there is a bug, and if so, to find it and fix it more quickly.

I'm not sure if I'm out of line here (and I apologize in advance if I am), but would it not be possible for someone at Turbine to run the quests themselves and see if something is wrong?

Just have someone run each challenge once and do the minimum to meet the requirement for completion (1 star). Its very easy to meet the minimum requirement, so this test should be very easy to do. If the mat returns are disproportional to what is expected, then you'll know something is wrong. I suspect you will see the discrepency with this one test alone (1 star minimum completion for each challenge ... don't do more than minimum).

Regarding the OP :
Enchanted moss ~430/run -> 10 min run = 430 / 10 min
Fey toadstools ~ 250/run -> 5 min run = 500 / 10 min
Silver Falcons ~250/run -> 10 min run = 250 / 10 min
Golden Lions ~ 130/run -> 10 min run = 130 / 10 min

This gives a payout ratio of moss:toad:falcon:lion = 1 : 1 : 0.5 : 0.25
The required amount has a ratio of moss:toad:falcon:lion = 1 : 1 : 2 : 1

The discrepency between the payout ratio vs the required amount ratio does look suspect.

My apologies in advance if I made math errors. :)

(I suspect the "real" payout is something between the above and 1 : 1 : 1 : 0.5, and that doubling falcon and lion drop rate is all that's needed.)

[rimble]

Not much different than spending an hour in a raid 20 times. You could always settle for one of the lower level cloaks unless you're having fun? Thanks devs for including that option.

I'd rather compare challenges to challenges, that seems to make more sense to me. These new challenges are significantly out of whack from what previous challenges taught me to expect.

[TrenchcoatJesus]

While we're on the subject, whose bright idea was it to make these challenge mats BtC?

Commendations, sure, I understand those. But challenge mats? Seriously?

Still not running any of this content, so sadly I can't chip in to beta test your challenges for you. I leave that to my more dedicated peers, who are still paying YOU to test YOUR content until YOU fix it. Sooner rather than later might be nice, so that I'll have a reason to actually run these challenges.

-TcJ

P.S. Any word on fixing challenge xp in general? Or was that another stealth fix that nobody noticed and/or went undocumented and/or is being postponed?

[Partydeluxe]

While we're on the subject, whose bright idea was it to make these challenge mats BtC?

Commendations, sure, I understand those. But challenge mats? Seriously?

Amen to that!

I love to do a couple Cannith challenges on my spellsword for when I have a little spare time and was looking forward to more challenges in eveningstar (You promised us challenges would be soloable remember!). Now I have to do em on my fullblown dps that was never intended to run these but does want the gear and it completely takes all the fun out of it.

Why on earth are they BTC anyway?!

[guardiankaiser]

I have to chip in here as well in case there is a chance of getting an answer, I'm not often the complaining type, but i find myself also needing to ask, just why are these mats bound to character?

Commendations (would have loved bound to account) but completely makes sense, they are an item in game but they represent X faction or group saying hey you can trust this guy (Or from a non setting view they are honestly rather easy to get and useful for starter epics)

the challenges mats seem unfair because A) they still are largely used to buy random loot (which i also wish was at least bound on equip) and B) because the other challenge's mats aren't bound (just seems good to be consistent) and I suppose most importantly from a game point of view C) some classes/builds that work great for quests feel like dead weight in a challenge, (especial given they are all timed and often test your ability or reward you based on how fast you can kill stuff (often exclusively)

[oradafu]

I have to echo others when it comes to the Eveningstar Challenge mats being BTC. This makes the collecting of mats and completing items totally different from the House C Challenges. With House C, a player can run the challenges on multiple characters to get the mats for making items. This makes collecting House C mats much more leisurely than the BTC mats of Eveningstar.

Additionally, since the Eveningstar Challenge mats are BTC, there should be an adjustment to completing items. Either the number of mats need to increase dramaticly or the number needed to make items needs to drop drasticly. Players are forced to use the character that needs the items to farm the EStar Challenges, instead of picking the best character in their arrenal for the individual challenges (as they could with House C Challenges).

[oweieie]

Stand in a room, kill ****. BRILLIANT! People will love this! Lets make them have to do this 50x for each character.

Turbine logic.

[Bloodhaven]

This new challenge mechanic of binding to character on acquire ingredients is very harsh given the amount of farming you need to do to gain a level 24 item.

This in conjunction with the challenge XP double nerf leads me to believe that the dev's responsible for drop rate, ingredient binding, xp nerfing have lost touch with their game.


Please normalize the ingredient drop rate across all challenges. Please make all challenge ingredients BTA.

Also adding a 2-1 trade option for ingredients would be great.

Allow us to play the challenges we like with the toons that can use the xp to gain the ingredients we need.

[Valiance]

Devs,

1) Read this thread
2) Do something about it
3) Profit

Ya, I know that there's no ?????? step but we've got to keep stuff simple for the Turbos.

V

[dterror]

While you're looking into the Eveningstar challenges, please fix the Cannith epic items too. Either permit epic mats to be converted to normal mats 1:1, or make the level 20 gear require epic mats to purchase as well as upgrade.

As was noted by someone else, once you start gaining epic levels, it becomes progressively more difficult to obtain the normal mats needed to purchase the base item.

[psteen1]

Regarding the OP :
Enchanted moss ~430/run -> 10 min run = 430 / 10 min
Fey toadstools ~ 250/run -> 5 min run = 500 / 10 min
Silver Falcons ~250/run -> 10 min run = 250 / 10 min
Golden Lions ~ 130/run -> 10 min run = 130 / 10 min

This gives a payout ratio of moss:toad:falcon:lion = 1 : 1 : 0.5 : 0.25
The required amount has a ratio of moss:toad:falcon:lion = 1 : 1 : 2 : 1



Wanted to bump this post, and point out that the above ratio is right on for me too, although my pulls are even lower since I am soloing these challenges. I am fine with running the challenges over and over again (that is kind of the point)- but I have to run the ring of fire about 10 times more than the others to get the required golden lions, and that doesn't seem right.

[Thrudh]

Devs,

1) Read this thread
2) Do something about it
3) Profit

Ya, I know that there's no ?????? step but we've got to keep stuff simple for the Turbos.

V

I'm no fan of the new challenges at all... Too grindy for me, so I'm just not doing them.

BUT... I have to step in once again. Why hasn't ANYONE given the devs the simple information they need?

They actually were watching this thread, responding to you, and yet no one gave them the info they asked for... Instead, there's just a bunch of posts saying... "Fix it! Fix it!"

sigh


We have definitely been keeping an eye on the thread; there has not been a response because we cannot get a clear picture of what is happened in crazydamage's particular case without the information requested above. There are many ways to get an ingredient payout around that number that would be working as intended, many of which have already been mentioned in this thread. It could also be a bug. Since the number of ingredients paid out is directly tied to Score, it's hard to tell without knowing both the score and the number of ingredients received if the number of ingredients received in this case is by design. The information about CR and character level will help us determine if any modifiers should have been applied to Score, and if they are applying correctly.

The information requested will help us determine if there is a bug, and if so, to find it and fix it more quickly.

[teh_meh]

Stand in a room, kill ****. BRILLIANT! People will love this! Lets make them have to do this 50x for each character.

Turbine logic.

this comment applies to every aspect of every game ever made. they just color it up differently.

don't know why it's particularly shocking or newsworthy in the case of this one teeny-tiny section of DDO

[VorpalKnight]

Hello!

Some ingredient types in the Eveningstar Challenges are granted in smaller amounts, as recipes require fewer of that ingredient relative to other ingredients. If you believe there is an issue with the number of ingredients being paid out in a Challenge, please file a bug report that includes the following:

- Name of the Challenge (as you have here)
- Character level of each party member that entered the Challenge, including Hirelings
- The CR at which you ran the Challenge
- The Score you had when the Challenge concluded
- The number of ingredients you received at the end of the Challenge

Thank you!

Why the hell do you guys always tell us to bug report things if you guys don't even read them or act on them? still horrible rewards with ring of fire on the new patch. A lot of good that reporting that did! Don't you guys even play the game? I don't see how a dev that plays the game and tried to make the bear cloak would not have noticed that the drop ratio is messed up with that quest.

Ration atm is: 5 Star it and get around 170 with all mimics(do these really increase rewards?), Fight to the Finish 5 star 319(killed one or two mimics) BUT you require 3200 instead of the usual 1600.

[Vormaerin]

They actually were watching this thread, responding to you, and yet no one gave them the info they asked for... Instead, there's just a bunch of posts saying... "Fix it! Fix it!"

sigh

Makes no sense to me either. Its possible to get lots of stars with a low-ish score. You don't directly get mats from stars, which seems to escape some folks.

Points = mats
Stars = xp/favor

Yes, getting stars usually results in some points. But not necessarily a particularly high number.

[sirgog]

We have definitely been keeping an eye on the thread; there has not been a response because we cannot get a clear picture of what is happened in crazydamage's particular case without the information requested above. There are many ways to get an ingredient payout around that number that would be working as intended, many of which have already been mentioned in this thread. It could also be a bug. Since the number of ingredients paid out is directly tied to Score, it's hard to tell without knowing both the score and the number of ingredients received if the number of ingredients received in this case is by design. The information about CR and character level will help us determine if any modifiers should have been applied to Score, and if they are applying correctly.

The information requested will help us determine if there is a bug, and if so, to find it and fix it more quickly.

Steel:

I'd consider a 5-star, 3 mimic CR 25 Ring of Fire run to be significantly more difficult to achieve than a 6-star, almost all mobs killed Sunset Ritual CR 30. Yet IIRC the latter gives a significantly better mat reward.