I want a refund

[MaximusParthas]

90 minutes, 300+ heal scrolls, 30+ resurrection scrolls, 12 major pots and god knows how many other scrolls, wands etc later
I'm here to inform you that OUTBREAK on ELITE cannot be completed.

How in good conscious could turbine possibly and knowingly release updates that they KNOW are broken?
Yea sure. I want to pay you every month to waste my time and resources. And I just love pre-ordering content that doesn't actually work.
At some point you've got to be held accountable.
IMO that point will be the first time any MMO based on D&D is released besides yours. maybe NWN, I dunno. I do know your lack of customer concern and the way you treat us like idiots who should just smile and accept whatever you give us has reached a peak.

And please. if your about to write some sycophantic nonsense, don't. Keep it to yourself.

[Thrudh]

http://i49.tinypic.com/2hzhe6e.jpg

[murf201]

90 minutes, 300+ heal scrolls, 30+ resurrection scrolls, 12 major pots and god knows how many other scrolls, wands etc later
I'm here to inform you that OUTBREAK on ELITE cannot be completed.

How in good conscious could turbine possibly and knowingly release updates that they KNOW are broken?
Yea sure. I want to pay you every month to waste my time and resources. And I just love pre-ordering content that doesn't actually work.
At some point you've got to be held accountable.
IMO that point will be the first time any MMO based on D&D is released besides yours. maybe NWN, I dunno. I do know your lack of customer concern and the way you treat us like idiots who should just smile and accept whatever you give us has reached a peak.

And please. if your about to write some sycophantic nonsense, don't. Keep it to yourself.

Im thinking this guy ^^^^ right here .

[Phemt81]

/popcorn

and

ibtl

[pearlharbor66]

It was already discussed on the forums that this quest couldn't be completed. You only goofed up yourself for doing them anyway.

[dbgager]

:) Its just a game.

[Ague]

<snip>

[deadmanet]

*edit*
Post removed due to my own bad memory. :cool:

[Charononus]

While I agree with a lot of players that they should have delayed the update due to bugs,etc...They told us up front when Update 15 went live on Monday that this quest in particular could bug out and not allow completion. Was posted in the known issues for the update AND was on the game launcher as well. If you missed either and spent all that time and resources, sorry, that's on you. And for your last sentence, if you don't want responses, don't post on the forums.

Just my 2 cps :cool:

The launcher said overgrowth was bugged when reality is they're all bugged.

[Dysmetria]

The launcher said overgrowth was bugged when reality is they're all bugged.Some people have completed the entire chain without any issues.

[Aashrym]

Some people have completed the entire chain without any issues.

I completed the entire chain with no issues but that doesn't mean issues don't exist. I might want to get completions on my other characters too. ;)

[Dysmetria]

I completed the entire chain with no issues but that doesn't mean issues don't exist. I might want to get completions on my other characters too. ;)Isn't the downtime in a few hours supposed to fix some of those issues?

[DarkForte]

I know of no way to legally force a company to refund you due to bugs in software. Have fun playing whatever game you choose to. I'd wait until today's hotfix though.

[jcoffey]

Computer games are one of the few professions where you can have tons of errors,be a crappy programmer, and still get away with it,DDO is no exception.

[baletraeger]

Computer games are one of the few professions where you can have tons of errors,be a crappy programmer, and still get away with it,DDO is no exception.

OS programmers too ;P

[HungarianRhapsody]

It was already discussed on the forums that this quest couldn't be completed. You only goofed up yourself for doing them anyway.

Yeah! What's wrong with you. You should know better than to try to actually complete a quest in a new adventure pack!

[Circon]

Computer games are one of the few professions where you can have tons of errors,be a crappy programmer, and still get away with it,DDO is no exception.
This.

The attitude of "it's just a game" and lack of serious consequences lets designers get away with tons of mess. If a car manufacturer put out cars that would randomly make left turns on the second Tuesday of every month, they'd be in really, really deep trouble, and putting up warnings of Known Issue (can be avoided by staying in odd-numbered gears, do not use second or fourth gear on Tuesdays) would only make the car manufacturer a subject of further ridicule.

But in computer games, where "it's only pixels", people sign up for games that have bugs on bugs on bugs, no guarantee of performance at all, no legal requirement that a game must WORK, and little incentive to keep the game polished apart from threats to leave. Turbine can sell vaporware and then point to the terms of service.


Changes to Agreement and Game. Turbine may update this Agreement at its sole discretion, and you may be asked to review and agree to the revised version of the TOS once it becomes effective. If you do not agree to a revised TOS, you will not be permitted to continue playing the Game. If at any time you are no longer able to comply with the terms of the then-current TOS, you must terminate this Agreement and immediately stop using the Game. Turbine may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. Turbine may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice or liability.

Ownership. You understand and agree that you have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game, including without limitation the Turbine account registered to you (the "Account"), in-game items, Turbine Points or in-game currency. You may not purchase, sell or trade any Account, in-game items, Turbine Points or in-game currency for anything of value in the real world without Turbine's express written permission, and any attempt to do so without Turbine's prior written consent shall be null and void. Turbine may revise, suspend, terminate or delete the Account at any time for any reason or no reason, with or without notice to you.

Account Suspension/Deletion. TURBINE MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE THE ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU. Most account suspensions, terminations and/or deletions are the result of violations of this TOS.
You can't get a refund. What you have with Turbine is not a contract, but more of a gentleman's agreement. You give Turbine money, and Turbine may or may not do diddly-squat, but they will hopefully provide a game of varying quality, based on how much crack the weasels in upper management have been smoking recently.

If you were renting an apartment, Turbine would be the sort of landlord who randomly shows up and says "No pictures allowed on the walls!" a month after he's been selling you pictures, and if you complain, he kicks you out on the street with no appeal.


If you want to change this, don't complain to Turbine. Complain to your legislature, and ask them to pull programmers up to other people's standards of responsibility. Food vendors can't disclaimer away their liability for potentially selling you poison, but programmers can disclaimer away their responsibility for pretty much everything.

[dummeskind]

I would say dont use Pug Groups for Epic Elite Quests :P

Not sure what u done wrong,but i run it 3 times now with i think 1 or 2 death in group,without use of Scrolls or majorpots.

[Qhualor]

long story short.

if you run the quests, theres a chance of not completing and theres enough places to see that theres problems with those quests from the launcher, known issues and even from the people on the forums.

its on you if you decide to run those quests or not.

[deahamlet]

It was already discussed on the forums that this quest couldn't be completed. You only goofed up yourself for doing them anyway.

I wasn't aware reading the forums was a pre-req of playing the game. They should have that info during korthos walkthrough!

[Aashrym]

Isn't the downtime in a few hours supposed to fix some of those issues?

That just says hotfix, so hopefully but I couldn't say with 100% certainty.

[Tenlaar]

I am dumbfounded at people really thinking it is perfectly fine for Turbine to release quests that they know will bug out and not be completable as long as they say up front "Hey, we're releasing quests that don't work."

[notte.oscura]

If a car manufacturer put out cars that would randomly make left turns on the second Tuesday of every month, they'd be in really, really deep trouble, and putting up warnings of Known Issue (can be avoided by staying in odd-numbered gears, do not use second or fourth gear on Tuesdays) would only make the car manufacturer a subject of further ridicule.



If you want to change this, don't complain to Turbine. Complain to your legislature, and ask them to pull programmers up to other people's standards of responsibility. Food vendors can't disclaimer away their liability for potentially selling you poison, but programmers can disclaimer away their responsibility for pretty much everything.

These examples lack the most basic concept of common sense:
- how can you compare the money investment you make in a new car with that of a DDO subscription? Plus all the health implications and potential risks for yourself and others if the car makes wrong turns. Totally incomparable?
- how can you compare, again, selling poisoned food (which has general health implications) to DDO?

To me, to subscribe to DDO is more like buying a cake: if I like it enough, I'll buy it again next month. If I don't like it anymore for whatever reason, I won't buy it anymore. Maybe I'll try another cake, maybe I'll try another shop.
I won't ask the shop for a refund on a cake I didn't like, even if I am a cook myself and I know the cake was made by "incompetent" people. All that I would do is ignore the shop in the future, and maybe tell my friends not to go buy a cake there. Stop.

That doesn't make me happy with the current state of DDO, but these arguments are ridiculous...

[Ryiah]

OS programmers too ;P

Yes but Microsoft, and other OS developers, at least attempt to learn from their mistakes. Looking at the sorry state of DDO right now, I think it is fair to compare it to Windows ME. It is a mess and clearly having issues. Microsoft took Windows ME and ditched it for the NT-based line. It was a smart move as even today Windows XP is heavily used.

Learning from mistakes is important in a field with so much competition. Big question is, can Turbine learn from their mistakes?

[knockcocker]

These examples lack the most basic concept of common sense:
- how can you compare the money investment you make in a new car with that of a DDO subscription? Plus all the health implications and potential risks for yourself and others if the car makes wrong turns. Totally incomparable?
- how can you compare, again, selling poisoned food (which has general health implications) to DDO?

To me, to subscribe to DDO is more like buying a cake: if I like it enough, I'll buy it again next month. If I don't like it anymore for whatever reason, I won't buy it anymore. Maybe I'll try another cake, maybe I'll try another shop.
I won't ask the shop for a refund on a cake I didn't like, even if I am a cook myself and I know the cake was made by "incompetent" people. All that I would do is ignore the shop in the future, and maybe tell my friends not to go buy a cake there. Stop.

That doesn't make me happy with the current state of DDO, but these arguments are ridiculous...

I don't think the examples were meant to be compared literally. The point is that in almost all other industries
there are certain accepted standards between vendor and consumer. For example, in the UK we have something
called the Sale of Goods Act which clearly lays out the responsibilities and rights consumers have when purchasing
goods. For some reason, these acceptable standards don't seem to exist when selling entertainment software which
was the real point of the post you are responding to. Honestly, I think MotU was so bad in terms of quality (and
things are NOT improving) that I wonder if a class action suit would stand a chance...

Your analogy is inaccurate as your state you agreed to buy a cake and were actually sold a cake. The issue for
most, myself included, is that we agreed to buy a cake but received a **** sandwich and are being told by Turbine
(implicitly with their silence) and their apologists to shut up and like it.

[knockcocker]

Yes but Microsoft, and other OS developers, at least attempt to learn from their mistakes. Looking at the sorry state of DDO right now, I think it is fair to compare it to Windows ME. It is a mess and clearly having issues. Microsoft took Windows ME and ditched it for the NT-based line. It was a smart move as even today Windows XP is heavily used.

Learning from mistakes is important in a field with so much competition. Big question is, can Turbine learn from their mistakes?

OS programmers (well, the companies they represent) can also be held accountable for revenue losses incurred
by customers affected by defects.

[deadmanet]

The launcher said overgrowth was bugged when reality is they're all bugged.

Yes, my error. Post edited. Got confused on which was listed. And I know from personal experience that at least 2 where buggy, as I was on of the first to post about it on the forums.

[grgurius]

Another whiny thread by maximus, now there is a shocker. :rolleyes:

How about you tell us what exactly buged out instead of raging, so we could avoid the same situation.

And, 90 mins, what did you do, took a lunch break in the midle of the quest?

[Necromisiek]

IMO that point will be the first time any MMO based on D&D is released besides yours. maybe NWN, I dunno.
Well, if I were some conspiracy theory follower, I would point to this as a reason of the present quality problems.
I mean Turbine certainly made some analysis on the impact Neverwinter release will have on the DDO - sudden turn towards FR somehow confirms it.

If this analysis has shown very serious problems for DDO's future, then some high ranked ppl may have decided to squeeze as much money from users as possible before N is released. That's why the speed new packs are released with could be considered most important factor - quality is not, as it will take some time for community to realise the problem exists at all, and the game's renown is not relevant, as the game itself would hardly survive competitor's release anyway.

But, as I stated at the start, it is just a conspiracy theory.

[notte.oscura]

Your analogy is inaccurate as your state you agreed to buy a cake and were actually sold a cake. The issue for
most, myself included, is that we agreed to buy a cake but received a **** sandwich and are being told by Turbine
(implicitly with their silence) and their apologists to shut up and like it.
I respect your opinion, seems reasonable at first glance, but I see things differently.

Let's say I'm not very skilled with cakes. Still, if I make a cake, I end up with a cake, not with a sandwich.
If I try hard or not in making it is almost irrelevant, all that counts for the consumer is the quality of the finished product.
Maybe my cake will even look good, but the inside is not well baked so the taste will be awful.
Still, I can try to sell it and advertise it as the best cake in the world!
I don't think I would say I have robbed anyone that buys my cake... every advertising campaign basically says that a product is the best in the world.
Of course, the spreading customer negative feedback will probably be a huge hit for my business. But maybe I can make up for it with more advertising.

How many low-quality industries do we have in the world? A lot. Are they all closing? No.
It's up to you to choose your own supplier.

Just different opinions, i guess.

[Lyniaer]

I left for Eight Months mostly because of population drop and how much I hated the new content back then.
It's nice to see upon my rekindling of interest in DDO that not much has changed...at all.
Well, one thing has changed. Back in the day, the OP would've been torn into pieces, those pieces burned and then secretly inserted into McDonalds' Chicken Nuggets.
It's quite nice to see the community coming together, but disturbing that it's for the common cause of aggressing Turbine.

Let me tell you folks something. I was an avid, daily player of DDO for nearly 4 years before I decided to take some time off, play some other games, get a little perspective.
After playing SWTOR, Final Fantasy 14, TERA and the Guild Wars 2 Beta... I'm honestly thinking about coming back to DDO.
Why? Well, it's simple. Starting up in any MMO without being on the ground floor is nearly impossible anymore.
Within six months of the game's release, there's already an established system for getting to max level in less time than it takes to watch all 8 seasons of 24...if you can go that long without gouging out your eyes...

Before you know it, anyone with a character that's below the "Cap" is no longer worth dealing with or helping.
Everyone who's everyone should know to watch the 20 minute youtube video explanation on how to exploit the game you're playing, skip the awe and wonder of the world around you and smash your way to cap so you can hang with "The Big Boys"; who do little more than farm, farm, farm, farm and *****, *****, *****, *****.

Every single MMO nowadays has one formula: Time-Sinks, Bugs and False Hope.
Now that DDO has Druid...what's left to hold out for? Sword-Sage? Will we be able to play as Dragons?

Who knows...who cares.

If the new content is giving you a rash, roll up another character and play with some newbs!
Play with me!! :D

[knockcocker]

I respect your opinion, seems reasonable at first glance, but I see things differently.

Let's say I'm not very skilled with cakes. Still, if I make a cake, I end up with a cake, not with a sandwich.
If I try hard or not in making it is almost irrelevant, all that counts for the consumer is the quality of the finished product.
Maybe my cake will even look good, but the inside is not well baked so the taste will be awful.
Still, I can try to sell it and advertise it as the best cake in the world!
I don't think I would say I have robbed anyone that buys my cake... every advertising campaign basically says that a product is the best in the world.
Of course, the spreading customer negative feedback will probably be a huge hit for my business. But maybe I can make up for it with more advertising.


In your hypothetical situation I would be protected by my consumer rights. i.e. under my Statutory Rights I'd
be able to seek a refund. Also, depending on nature of your 'advertising campaign', I could seek an injunction from
the Advertising Standards Authority. For entertainment software it doesn't seem to be as clear cut though IANAL
- it would be interesting to see some of these issues tested before a judge. Certainly the ability to change what
you bought after you bought it seems questionable to me.



How many low-quality industries do we have in the world? A lot. Are they all closing? No.
It's up to you to choose your own supplier.

Just different opinions, i guess.

You seem to be saying that it's ok to sell rubbish and that the onus is on the consumer, not the vendor, to do
something about it?. Fair enough, but then we're back to the point of the difference between selling entertainment
software and 'real' products such as cakes and cars.

[Ugumagre]

90 minutes, 300+ heal scrolls, 30+ resurrection scrolls, 12 major pots and god knows how many other scrolls, wands etc later
I'm here to inform you that OUTBREAK on ELITE cannot be completed.

How in good conscious could turbine possibly and knowingly release updates that they KNOW are broken?
Yea sure. I want to pay you every month to waste my time and resources. And I just love pre-ordering content that doesn't actually work.
At some point you've got to be held accountable.
IMO that point will be the first time any MMO based on D&D is released besides yours. maybe NWN, I dunno. I do know your lack of customer concern and the way you treat us like idiots who should just smile and accept whatever you give us has reached a peak.

And please. if your about to write some sycophantic nonsense, don't. Keep it to yourself.

I am waiting for NWN also, sadly ATARI is not there anymore to help as a reliable company.
But HASBRO is there, and Cryptic, so I am hoping for the best.

[flaco1]

---snip---
- it would be interesting to see some of these issues tested before a judge. Certainly the ability to change what
you bought after you bought it seems questionable to me.
---snip---


I agree, it should be illegal for developers to bug fix games, since that would change the game from when people bought it.

[Beethoven]

If a car manufacturer put out cars that would randomly make left turns on the second Tuesday of every month, they'd be in really, really deep trouble,

I am pretty sure if gaming companies could charge upwards of USD 20,000 for a game or USD 200+ a month of a subscription we'd be looking at very different quality standards.

Cars you get for free will usually have a lot of issues, work even less than DDO and USD 10.00 does not give you unlimited access to fuel so you can go joy-riding whenever you want for an entire months. USD 10.00 doesn't even get you 3 gallons of fuel, which is good for less than 60 miles (in cases of a free car significantly less). The moment you take actual value into account your example falls apart. It just doesn't work. Trust me, you offer a car manufacturer no more than you would pay for a video game, it's not the car manufacturer that'd get ridiculed. They won't even bother look at your car for that low an amount, nevermind provide you any service (or product) of quality


If you were renting an apartment, ...

Same here, you'd be renting an apartment for ten bucks a month you wouldn't get to complain about the smell. Turbine at the very least still allows you to complain.



If you want to change this, don't complain to Turbine. Complain to your legislature, and ask them to pull programmers up to other people's standards of responsibility. Food vendors can't disclaimer away their liability for potentially selling you poison, but programmers can disclaimer away their responsibility for pretty much everything.

Food vendors get away with selling you low quality; or you really think (most) Fast Food has any quality (from a nutritional point of view)? Software developers / companies are already held responsible for any actual damages they cause. What you are effectively asking for is for food providers to provide with a product that has the quality I expect from Ruth Chris, but sold for the price of a burger at McDonalds. You are talking about the same legislature which allows frozen pizza to be sold as vegetable because of the tomatoe sauce; a sauce with enough sugar added into it, it actually would need to be classified as sweets and desert.

The issue is not that they can disclaim away liability, the problem is unrealistic expectations. People want lots of content and features in new games, frequent updates, high quality and everyone to check their work thrice before release, but no one wants to pay for it. So for a lot of gaming companies it has become an either or, prices are low and to make a profit they can either crank out update after update or take is slow, provide with half as much content/features but with less bugs.

Bill Gates himself even stated in a public interview that fixing bugs is not a priority for Microsoft since there is no money in it. The money is in new features and updates. Twenty years later Microsoft is still one of the most successful software companies out there.

Also, just look at the gaming industries: Diablo 3 was released with a laundry list of bugs. People still bought it. I am pretty sure in a couple weeks people will find first bugs in GW 2 (great game, but I still fully expect there to be bugs). I am also convinced people will still buy it regardless. So, if big and highly anticipated titles like these don't change the industries, it is a bit unfair to expect it from a company with a six year old game, don't you think?

It'd require a significant change to fix it and the change would need to come from the market and not a sole provider. We would need to start rank games not only by size, content and features but also have a rating for if a game has more or less bugs than average. And we would need to stop buying games that are released with bugs no matter how fun they look. But that is about as likely to happen as people in general stop buying products from companies that produce abroad. Its not going to happen since it is not convenient and because that would mean we cannot afford a newer, larger televisions every few months and wouldn't get to play with all new toys instantly.

[Ausdoerrt]

I am waiting for NWN also, sadly ATARI is not there anymore to help as a reliable company.

Bwahaha, their "help" crippled quite a few of my favorite classics, so I say - good riddance! NWO(it's not "nights")'s team seems to be working closely with WotC, so at least they'll have the lore and the atmosphere spot-on.


If the new content is giving you a rash, roll up another character and play with some newbs!
Play with me!!

If you're on Khyber and play European evenings and/or weekends, I'm plannign to TR my main this or next weekend. Feel free to PM.

[grayham]

90 minutes, 300+ heal scrolls, 30+ resurrection scrolls, 12 major pots and god knows how many other scrolls, wands etc later
I'm here to inform you that OUTBREAK on ELITE cannot be completed.

How in good conscious could turbine possibly and knowingly release updates that they KNOW are broken?
Yea sure. I want to pay you every month to waste my time and resources. And I just love pre-ordering content that doesn't actually work.
At some point you've got to be held accountable.
IMO that point will be the first time any MMO based on D&D is released besides yours. maybe NWN, I dunno. I do know your lack of customer concern and the way you treat us like idiots who should just smile and accept whatever you give us has reached a peak.

And please. if your about to write some sycophantic nonsense, don't. Keep it to yourself.

You can't say you weren't warned. Oh, and I love your closing comment, that's just brilliant. In other words: If you don't agree with me and you're not a Turbine-basher then don't post. Brilliant.

[adamkatt]

I guess if turbine made cars..... they would be out of business...... I guess what we need are regulations on the game updates... when a new car is made the lights have to work or they wont be able to sale it off the lot..... its gotta have tires etc......

Im sure glad my rental has a steering wheel that isnt buggy. I dont need that right turn bug to happen again... whew....

[Doomcrew]

And please. if your about to write some sycophantic nonsense, don't. Keep it to yourself.

Right back atcha .....

[Top_Dog]

To me, to subscribe to DDO is more like buying a cake: if I like it enough, I'll buy it again next month. If I don't like it anymore for whatever reason, I won't buy it anymore. Maybe I'll try another cake, maybe I'll try another shop.
I won't ask the shop for a refund on a cake I didn't like, even if I am a cook myself and I know the cake was made by "incompetent" people. All that I would do is ignore the shop in the future, and maybe tell my friends not to go buy a cake there. Stop.

And any real gamer knows that the cake IS a lie.

[karsion]

Yes but Microsoft, and other OS developers, at least attempt to learn from their mistakes.

Oh, really? Guess you haven't seen Vista then ;)

[Strider1963]

OS programmers too ;P

Yup, we're all still using Win-doze OS XX...every new version uses more memory, bogs down your system more, and has more bugs.... this game isnt any different
But on the other hand, I do enjoy the game, so hopefully the hotfix will fix most of the problems with the new pack....

[Elation]

I guess if turbine made cars..... they would be out of business...... I guess what we need are regulations on the game updates... when a new car is made the lights have to work or they wont be able to sale it off the lot..... its gotta have tires etc......

Im sure glad my rental has a steering wheel that isnt buggy. I dont need that right turn bug to happen again... whew....

Lets see comapring Computer software to the mechanics of a car oh wait guess what cars have recalls to for hotfixes like accelerating out of control, faulty breaks, mis installed safety features, oh computer melt downs, exploding gas tanks. Oops this are just some of the recent recalls on cars what were yoiu saying now?

Alsao ran all the quest perfectly once ran through the chain again had once bug on overgrowth no big deal redid in 20 minutes and contiued on playing hmmm. Oh the bug did not possible harm me or other motorists good to know its still safe to drive.

More serious of course we all want the bug fixes to go through, threatening to jump ship cracks me up just do it already.

Turbine little quicker on the bug fixes and give your in Game GM's the freedom to help correct mistakes, Thats what a gm is.

[adamkatt]

Lets see comapring Computer software to the mechanics of a car oh wait guess what cars have recalls to for hotfixes like accelerating out of control, faulty breaks, mis installed safety features, oh computer melt downs, exploding gas tanks. Oops this are just some of the recent recalls on cars what were yoiu saying now?

Alsao ran all the quest perfectly once ran through the chain again had once bug on overgrowth no big deal redid in 20 minutes and contiued on playing hmmm. Oh the bug did not possible harm me or other motorists good to know its still safe to drive.

More serious of course we all want the bug fixes to go through, threatening to jump ship cracks me up just do it already.

Turbine little quicker on the bug fixes and give your in Game GM's the freedom to help correct mistakes, Thats what a gm is.

Gms' dont fix anything. they just waste your time now. didnt you get the memo?

Who made any threats? you may want to calm down, use a spell check and reread my post.

[karsion]

Gms' dont fix anything. they just waste your time now. didnt you get the memo?

Who made any threats? you may want to calm down, use a spell check and reread my post.

Did some GM not fix your problem? Cause I had a very helpful GM resetting boss in PoP so I was able to finish the quest after the rest of the part left.

So either you had bad experience and generalise or you just repeat others who generalise.

[adamkatt]

Did some GM not fix your problem? Cause I had a very helpful GM resetting boss in PoP so I was able to finish the quest after the rest of the part left.

So either you had bad experience and generalise or you just repeat others who generalise.

Ask Elation, he brought it up...

we are talking about bugs, since when can a gm fix a bug??? I didnt say they werent helpful.... gms are bandaids that usually fall off too soon...

[youdonut]

mmmm cakes and food analogies maybe turbine should hire Gordon Ramsay,,, he could do another new series called Hells Programer or Programing Nightmares or some thing.

[Thrudh]

The attitude of "it's just a game" and lack of serious consequences lets designers get away with tons of mess. If a car manufacturer put out cars that would randomly make left turns on the second Tuesday of every month, they'd be in really, really deep trouble, and putting up warnings of Known Issue (can be avoided by staying in odd-numbered gears, do not use second or fourth gear on Tuesdays) would only make the car manufacturer a subject of further ridicule.

But in computer games, where "it's only pixels", people sign up for games that have bugs on bugs on bugs, no guarantee of performance at all, no legal requirement that a game must WORK, and little incentive to keep the game polished apart from threats to leave.

(1) Cars do have bugs, and people have died from them. There have been millions of recall notices (car manufacturers putting out a list of known issues) and bug fixes (recalls) over the years.
(2) "It's just a game" DOES apply. Bugs in a car can kill you. Bugs in this game are usually just mildly annoying. Not being able to complete a quest is one of the big ones, and those need to be fixed ASAP though...

I wouldn't respond to someone whose quest bugged out that "It's just a game". But I also wouldn't think to compare a video game to a car either.

[knockcocker]

I agree, it should be illegal for developers to bug fix games, since that would change the game from when people bought it.

So, changing the game to work like how it was described when sold should be illegal? Do you really think that's
what I meant?. I wasn't arguing for a static implementation. I was basically trying to articulate how I thought it
was underhand to change the specific properties of something sold in the store at a later date.

An example of this would be warforged immunities. Lots of people purchased the warforged race because of
their immunities. These immunities have now, to a large extent, been removed.

Look, I realize that Turbine are within their rights to do this (according to the EULA they can pretty much do what
they want) - I'm just interested in the comparison between this and other businesses. I find it strange that peoples
expectations are different because it's software - that's all.

[Lyniaer]

You guys are missing one key factor on the whole "Comparing Vehicle Bugs and Manufacturers to MMOs and Developers".
A. A bug in an MMO has never gotten anyone killed.
B. Bugs are eventually taken care of, sooner or later.
- Some cars are manufactured with KNOWN issues and manufacturers are prone to KEEP QUIET about them. Some of these result in a Fatality and the excuse of the car manufacturer is that it's cheaper to pay the law suit and/or death benefits individually than to recall X amount of vehicles for an upgrade. This is REAL.
C. Developers are more often than not AWARE of a bug or of the fact that it takes a very peculiar set of circumstances to occur and is therefor not a threat to the release of the software. Take a look straight up at the "Known Issue: Black Screen with Visible UI". This is an issue that is probably so sporadic and most likely narrows down to one to two very particular Graphics Cards being only partially incompatible with the game. It's not feasible to apply several hundred man-hours towards correcting that bug because of it's rarity and ease of temporary resolution. Sure, it's annoying, but why pay a coder X-thousand amount of dollars over so many hours to fix it? This is the same view Ford had with over 600,000 '78 Pintos and later the Crown Vic. But you had to rear-end those cars in a very specific manner to cause an ignition; and as we all should know - gasoline is Flammable, not Explosive. Forget the movies with gas stations, fuel trucks or even the random car detonating like it was wired with 5 pounds of C4...because it WAS. Yes, gasoline was used but only to provide a bigger fire ball. Why did I get into this?

Oh yes.
D. Games can bug for various reasons that Alpha testers can't predict for; such as killing a certain mob with a certain weapon or completing a certain objective or reaching a certain area too quickly that the game tries to execute multiple scripts at once and freak out. Cars and Manufacturers don't have that same excuse anymore because when a car is built it's, literally, run through the gauntlet. Not just driven for a few days and then given a smiley face sticker.

Bottom Line; any Finished Product of any kind is never fully tested until it's put into the hands of the public.
This is why almost anything we buy has some kind of stupid warning label. Someone, somewhere, has tried eating the silicone packets that come with new shoes...

[Vint]

You guys are missing one key factor on the whole "Comparing Vehicle Bugs and Manufacturers to MMOs and Developers".
A. A bug in an MMO has never gotten anyone killed.
B. Bugs are eventually taken care of, sooner or later.

This is getting crazy with all the car differences.

By the way, when will the Ladder bug be fixed? My money is when the servers come down for good.

I could care less personally, but I don’t think Turbine cares either way. Also, (not at you), but if Turbine felt threatened that people would actually leave in droves, they wouldn’t put out "less than good content".

[adamkatt]

You guys are missing one key factor on the whole "Comparing Vehicle Bugs and ..

So lets discuss what to compare ddo too. How about Pimps and hoes? Or apples and oranges! You dont approve of my comparison(which was just for fun). You are now the expert, what shall we use as a perfect comparison?

[Lyniaer]

So lets discuss what to compare ddo too. How about Pimps and hoes? Or apples and oranges! You dont approve of my comparison(which was just for fun). You are now the expert, what shall we use as a perfect comparison?

I did.
"...any Finished Product of any kind is never fully tested until it's put into the hands of the public.
This is why almost anything we buy has some kind of stupid warning label. Someone, somewhere, has tried eating the silicone packets that come with new shoes... "

I compared it to anything that has ever been surely "Tested" and put into the hands of consumers.
I will bet anyone here any amount of money that everything Turbine puts out is tested.
Same goes for any product put out on shelves or in lots.
There's going to be bugs, issues or blatant misuse.
The point I'm making is that in an MMO, Turbine w/ DDO included, Bugs are acknowledged and at some point: Fixed.
I've played DDO for four years and have never actually encountered the "Ladder Glitch", but I've heard about it. Ohhh, I've heard about it.

We go through this at work, too. As a Law Enforcement person, we need our stuff to work. When it fails, it's a serious issue. But we've gone for decades with the same problems with some of our equipment and computer software. Our lightbars on our cars are flat-out garbage, but we're stuck with them and depending on if it's a "Stealth" lightbar on our unmarked cars or our Old School ones we've had since the '80s, that car could sit for weeks waiting on a technician to even come LOOK at it, let alone fixing it.

As far as that experience goes, if Turbine can apply their Bug Fix support to any platform, I would prefer Turbine be fixing our stuff and ya'll can have our Techs.

[Thrudh]

By the way, when will the Ladder bug be fixed?

Who cares?

They fixed all of the broken quests and missing raid bosses in this patch. Those are important bugs..

Ladder bug is WAY down at the bottom of the bug list, and rightly so.

[Vint]

Who cares?

They fixed all of the broken quests and missing raid bosses in this patch. Those are important bugs..

Ladder bug is WAY down at the bottom of the bug list, and rightly so.

As I said, I dont care either. But there is no need for others to sugar coat that these are always fixed.

[Chai]

Yes but Microsoft, and other OS developers, at least attempt to learn from their mistakes. Looking at the sorry state of DDO right now, I think it is fair to compare it to Windows ME. It is a mess and clearly having issues. Microsoft took Windows ME and ditched it for the NT-based line. It was a smart move as even today Windows XP is heavily used.

Learning from mistakes is important in a field with so much competition. Big question is, can Turbine learn from their mistakes?

LOL.

Each version of Windows ships with known issue lists numbering into the thousands. The only thing they learned is that being the big dog on the block means everyone who depends on you will buy the OS anyhow, regardless of semantics involved.

Windows XP was loaded with issues when it first came out. The reason everyone thinks its so good now is because they took an entire decade patching up the holes.

[wey4lust]

After xp there was vista and it had ,,few,, bugs

[SableShadow]

Who cares?

They fixed all of the broken quests and missing raid bosses in this patch. Those are important bugs..

*If* fixed, yes, I agree. ;)



Ladder bug is WAY down at the bottom of the bug list, and rightly so.

On the lowest rung? :D

[AlexMonk]

Hey Max (and those that agree with him). When you finally rage quit DDO, Can I have your gear ?

6 years, and still having fun. It's only a game.

[Chai]

So lets discuss what to compare ddo too. How about Pimps and hoes? Or apples and oranges! You dont approve of my comparison(which was just for fun). You are now the expert, what shall we use as a perfect comparison?

When you make those kinds of comparisons and point out how the negatives parallel DDO, you cant get irritated when someone else points out how DDO is doing far better than what you compared it to. I always grin when I see it compared to Windows and people try to make DDO sound worse then Windows, which clearly shows lack of having done any homework on the topic of Windows in the first place.

The car analogy is always the most used, and most hilarious one, because I can pretty much always turn it right back on the person trying to apply the car analogy negatively to DDO related situations.

[sebastianosmith]

Ladder bug is WAY down at the bottom of the bug list, and rightly so.

On the lowest rung? :D

The ultimate irony is it can't pull itself out.

[RumbIe]

Guess it's already been said, but I love the car reference. It's a real parallel. People die all the time from video game bugs. It's just as serious a concern and should have as serious consequences. I can't believe no one is talking this seriously. I mean...seriously.

I agree bugs are frustrating, but man people just can't let things go and enjoy what's out there. Everyone wanted Druids. Well you got them, but of course they're not good enough for you. Everyone wanted changes to AC to make it meaningful. They worked hard with a new solution, got feedback from the community and implemented it. Meh. Who cares now. Everyone wanted the level cap increase. Over the past 3 years I must have seen tons of posts started. Not only did we get the cap increase, but we got Epic Destinies which go well beyond just adding 5 more levels and a few enhancements. Are they prefect yet? No. But it's a heck of a lot of fun and has a bunch of nice content and potential. Oh yeah and in the past year they're added quite a few new adventures, some of which were free. Most of them worked. Some didn't, but they were quickly patched (This hotfix happened 3 days from release).

Boo Hoo what could I possibly do for 3 days. There simply isn't a single other quest in the game I could run. I want it now. Marsha, Marsha, MARSHA!!!

Bugs suck. Agreed. They work on them though and fix unplayable content. The rest might be stuff that is a minor annoyance and if they stop and fix those people will be screaming Where's my Druid 2.0, Where's my new adventures, Where's my new PrEs, Where's my new EDs, Where's blah blah blah. Everyone is so very cavalier to say they would prefer DDO to stop and just fix bugs for a year, but they'll be the first people to start a thread in 3 months saying Turbine is going under because there has been no new content released........They will deny it now, but wait and you will see them.

So here. Let me be the first to pass around the hat for you and your refund. I'll grant you one imaginary dollar towards the refund of your imaginary Heal Scrolls and your imaginary Res Scrolls and your major pots that you can't drink in real life and drop in chests and end rewards. Maybe someone will be generous enough to donate more, but my imaginary wallet is pretty thin right now.

Thank god I don't have all these problems in real life..............

[Syrrah]

Sigh, all this nonsense about cakes and cars and class-actions ... DDO is neither a cake, nor a car, nor a washing machine, nor an OS or whatever, so stop making analogies that do refer to anything else but computer games.

Besides, the OP only asked about a refund based on failure to finish one quest, so here is his answer:

DDO is a game and the aim of a game is to be played, not to be finished. A game is considered entertainment so the point is to be entertained, where entertainment can be defined as "playing".

So the pack he purchased or got due to his VIP status offers 4 quests that are meant to be played. The OP was able to play the game including the new quests, therefore it is not defective and a refund is not possible.

Looking back, he may feel he had no fun, but the game still functioned. Remember, fun is subective but playing=entertainment.

The fact that it could not be completed is not relevant, as the alleged bugs did at no point cause the game to cease working or not allowed to play the game. The bugs only made it impossible for the quest to reach the ending that the OP hoped for. For all we know, Turbine can market Outbreak as WAI: "Come and see the quest that never ends! Experience the game of a life-time! Give us your money naow!".

This answers the question. Refund is not possible.

I agree that the pack should not have been released in its current state or at least the quest should have been closed upon release with a friendly "maintenance" sign, but from a strictly legal point of view, the present bugs are no reason for a refund.

And b.t.w., the EULA and other conditions that have been referred to in this thread can be ignored if OP is a UK player. In nearly every legislation around the glove (except the US), the EULA has no value. Legislation will normally depend on the place the buyer is located.

[SableShadow]

Ladder bug is WAY down at the bottom of the bug list, and rightly so.
On the lowest rung? :D
The ultimate irony is it can't pull itself out.

Actually, it does (constantly ... look at how often both players and devs mention the ladder bug over the years).

It hitches, is all. :)

[Chai]

Sigh, all this nonsense about cakes and cars and class-actions ... DDO is neither a cake, nor a car, nor a washing machine, nor an OS or whatever, so stop making analogies that do refer to anything else but computer games.

Besides, the OP only asked about a refund based on failure to finish one quest, so here is his answer:

DDO is a game and the aim of a game is to be played, not to be finished. A game is considered entertainment so the point is to be entertained, where entertainment can be defined as "playing".

So the pack he purchased or got due to his VIP status offers 4 quests that are meant to be played. The OP was able to play the game including the new quests, therefore it is not defective and a refund is not possible.

Looking back, he may feel he had no fun, but the game still functioned. Remember, fun is subective but playing=entertainment.

The fact that it could not be completed is not relevant, as the alleged bugs did at no point cause the game to cease working or not allowed to play the game. The bugs only made it impossible for the quest to reach the ending that the OP hoped for. For all we know, Turbine can market Outbreak as WAI: "Come and see the quest that never ends! Experience the game of a life-time! Give us your money naow!".

This answers the question. Refund is not possible.

I agree that the pack should not have been released in its current state or at least the quest should have been closed upon release with a friendly "maintenance" sign, but from a strictly legal point of view, the present bugs are no reason for a refund.

And b.t.w., the EULA and other conditions that have been referred to in this thread can be ignored if OP is a UK player. In nearly every legislation around the glove (except the US), the EULA has no value. Legislation will normally depend on the place the buyer is located.

The EULA does have value but cannot break or circumvent the law in countries the product is sold in. The UK has some pretty good consumer protection laws, one of which allows the buyer to call their credit card company and ask for a charge back using the phrase "not fit for purpose" - which is almost always granted. However...the customer then has to return what they did not pay for. Stores reserve the right to stop selling to any user who abuses this. This would not cultivate an atmosphere where people get to complain over long periods of time, and continue to play the game they complain about over long periods of time, as it causes repeated users of this contingency to play their entire hand and move on.

[Top_Dog]

Sigh, all this nonsense about cakes and cars and class-actions ... DDO is neither a cake, nor a car, nor a washing machine, nor an OS or whatever, so stop making analogies that do refer to anything else but computer games.

Besides, the OP only asked about a refund based on failure to finish one quest, so here is his answer:

DDO is a game and the aim of a game is to be played, not to be finished. A game is considered entertainment so the point is to be entertained, where entertainment can be defined as "playing".

So the pack he purchased or got due to his VIP status offers 4 quests that are meant to be played. The OP was able to play the game including the new quests, therefore it is not defective and a refund is not possible.

Looking back, he may feel he had no fun, but the game still functioned. Remember, fun is subective but playing=entertainment.

The fact that it could not be completed is not relevant, as the alleged bugs did at no point cause the game to cease working or not allowed to play the game. The bugs only made it impossible for the quest to reach the ending that the OP hoped for. For all we know, Turbine can market Outbreak as WAI: "Come and see the quest that never ends! Experience the game of a life-time! Give us your money naow!".

This answers the question. Refund is not possible.

I agree that the pack should not have been released in its current state or at least the quest should have been closed upon release with a friendly "maintenance" sign, but from a strictly legal point of view, the present bugs are no reason for a refund.

And b.t.w., the EULA and other conditions that have been referred to in this thread can be ignored if OP is a UK player. In nearly every legislation around the glove (except the US), the EULA has no value. Legislation will normally depend on the place the buyer is located.

You don't seem to have a grasp of, well, the game at all. It's completely designed around finishing each quest. Period.

According to what you've just said, everyone in the game should be satisfied and complacent should they never had been able to finish the first quests at level 1 on Korthos island and still be stuck there unable to continue on. As long as you and anyone else simply were able to PLAY the Korthos quests it doesn't matter about finishing them and continue on to more quests that REQUIRE you to finish.

Seriously? Just playing the quests is OK?

EULA - whatever.

I paid money for a game to WORK PROPERLY. If the seller doesn't comply or deliver what was promised then a refund is required.

Read: REQUIRED

[Raithe]

It's completely designed around finishing each quest. Period.


No, it isn't. Some of the best fun I've had in the game ended up in quest failure. That is how YOU play the game, not everyone else.

The OP clearly had set himself on an unfun course to begin with, because he talks about using 300 heal scrolls. I've had similar successful completions (my first solo run of hard Coalescence Chamber at level 16 on my ranger), and I was not exactly elated after getting the completion... it was more of a "well, I won't be doing that again" type of feeling.

The fact that he couldn't get a completion as well was pouring salt in the wound, but these things happen. He just needed to vent, and perhaps take his business elsewhere for a while. Doesn't mean we need to overanalyze the situation, which everyone seems to think necessary.

[Chai]

You don't seem to have a grasp of, well, the game at all. It's completely designed around finishing each quest. Period.

According to what you've just said, everyone in the game should be satisfied and complacent should they never had been able to finish the first quests at level 1 on Korthos island and still be stuck there unable to continue on. As long as you and anyone else simply were able to PLAY the Korthos quests it doesn't matter about finishing them and continue on to more quests that REQUIRE you to finish.

Seriously? Just playing the quests is OK?

EULA - whatever.

I paid money for a game to WORK PROPERLY. If the seller doesn't comply or deliver what was promised then a refund is required.

Read: REQUIRED

Theres a huge difference between 99.5% of all quests being completable and 0% of all quests being completable.

Refund is not REQUIRED, for a few days of product not working. Thats why many major software companies have a support department. In this case, it takes a few days to fix the issue on the part of the dev team, they arent required to offer a refund if they make it work as intended.

And no, you dont get to casually brush off the EULA just because it doesnt support your stance on the issue.

[Llewndyn]

90 minutes, 300+ heal scrolls, 30+ resurrection scrolls, 12 major pots and god knows how many other scrolls, wands etc later
I'm here to inform you that OUTBREAK on ELITE cannot be completed.

How in good conscious could turbine possibly and knowingly release updates that they KNOW are broken?
Yea sure. I want to pay you every month to waste my time and resources. And I just love pre-ordering content that doesn't actually work.
At some point you've got to be held accountable.
IMO that point will be the first time any MMO based on D&D is released besides yours. maybe NWN, I dunno. I do know your lack of customer concern and the way you treat us like idiots who should just smile and accept whatever you give us has reached a peak.

And please. if your about to write some sycophantic nonsense, don't. Keep it to yourself.

Kissing up to you? I am confused.
IBTL.
Cool story bro.
Can i haz - oh nevermind...

[MaximusParthas]

Hey Max (and those that agree with him). When you finally rage quit DDO, Can I have your gear ?

6 years, and still having fun. It's only a game.

um. maybe. I dunno.
I'm not likely to ragequit. As I've said before I'm not here because I'm loyal to turbine or some MMO. I'm here because I've been a loyal fan and player of D&D for more than 20+ years.
If another D&D based MMO comes out and it's reasonably worth playing, odds are I'll be gone then.

[grgurius]

troll,
I don't come on these forums to chat with you or post cute kitten pics.
When I have an issue this is where I come. It's a place I know for certain turbine staff reads some of the threads.
now go away and leave me be before I report you for harassment.

And what useful information will turbine staff get from your post, besides the fact that you failed to complete outbreak on elite.

Ofc, just because i don't agree with you its harassment.

Btw, mind telling us what exactly bugged out?

[bruener]

I wasn't aware reading the forums was a pre-req of playing the game. They should have that info during korthos walkthrough!

I wasn't aware of that either. I suppose we are suppose to read every post in every thread. oh wait I cant do that...i have a life.

saying that is was already posted in the forums so its your fault for running it is the dumbest thing i have heard today. But don't worry its still early.

Maybe people should just give him tips on how to complete it. I haven't ran it myself so i don't have a clue.

Good luck next time.

[Elation]

Gms' dont fix anything. they just waste your time now. didnt you get the memo?

Who made any threats? you may want to calm down, use a spell check and reread my post.

Someone not specifically you always makes the threat of oooh another MMO is coming out if turbine does not fix this or that such specific them I am leaving to try that one. If your unsure of how that works look over the Diablo 3 posts, and now the Guild Wars 2 posts.

I am calm and actaully I have had quite a few GMs help me out, by fixing minor things in quests that "bugged out", such as respawning mobs so on and so forth.

Also, they (the Senior GM) did in in game fix on one of my charactors after problems arised from a Lesser Res.

GM's in pen and paper constantly fix things if you ever ran a home campaign as a GM you would know this.

Also attacking spelling usually only means you can not argue the post.

I am not an English major nor do i care to be one.

So not spell checking this one either. Love forum grammar Nazis.

[Top_Dog]

No, it isn't. Some of the best fun I've had in the game ended up in quest failure. That is how YOU play the game, not everyone else.

So you are stating as a fact that you and lots of other people don't care at all about completing a quest? And you have beach front property in Nevada too I hear.

Seriously, I have fun playing the game too, I have loads of examples of major fun during a quest. But if I could not go past that because I can't complete due to game error then the fun dries up. No one would level up without completions and the XP they earn. Try harder to convince someone you and others don't care about the ability to finish a quest.


Theres a huge difference between 99.5% of all quests being completable and 0% of all quests being completable.

Refund is not REQUIRED, for a few days of product not working. Thats why many major software companies have a support department. In this case, it takes a few days to fix the issue on the part of the dev team, they arent required to offer a refund if they make it work as intended.

And no, you dont get to casually brush off the EULA just because it doesnt support your stance on the issue.
Get a clue.

I understand that the OP was venting, but it's just a simple fact that when you don't get what you pay for you get your money back. When a company takes your money and then refused to refund when they fail to provide then they're simply proving what criminals they really are is all. EULA can't hide that.

Turbine has yet to provide a real support department. Far too many players will testify to that (and already have too).

[Vint]

I wasn't aware of that either. I suppose we are suppose to read every post in every thread. oh wait I cant do that...i have a life.

This is a problem however. You have read all the "newbs are going to quit" threads and it is because of this. If the numbers are actually correct 95% of the population doesn’t read the forums. The game has survived with this, but I bet there would be a better retention if more had read it.

I am not talking about the BS threads like this one, but the guides and strategies or the build threads could give people a ton of information.

I am not calling you out personally, and I am sure you are well accustomed to the game, but what happens when I join a party and some dumbarse joins and does not decide to learn the game. I am supposed to carry them thru it? Years ago I would always give advice to help them (as you said above, but it was met with "don’t tell me how to play the game". Fine I will let people stink it up, and I will avoid them at all cost.

Regardless, I feel Turbine should put emphasis on the forums. Put the useful stuff for newer, or people that want to learn at the top of the page. This could include the link to solvers, types of creatures, builds, and other stuff people might want to know.

We come back to people that "have a life" and could care less about ruining another person’s fun or time in a party because they were to "busy" to learn anything.

[Elation]

So you are stating as a fact that you and lots of other people don't care at all about completing a quest? And you have beach front property in Nevada too I hear.

Seriously, I have fun playing the game too, I have loads of examples of major fun during a quest. But if I could not go past that because I can't complete due to game error then the fun dries up. No one would level up without completions and the XP they earn. Try harder to convince someone you and others don't care about the ability to finish a quest.

Ok you get a clue, the quest was completable, did so numerous times there was some bugs that could prevent completions as stated in the initial log in, not a big deal go back and do the quest again. Got my xp 20 minutes a quest roughlyt not bad.

Get a clue.

I understand that the OP was venting, but it's just a simple fact that when you don't get what you pay for you get your money back. When a company takes your money and then refused to refund when they fail to provide then they're simply proving what criminals they really are is all. EULA can't hide that.

Actaully the EULA does protectem them from these eventuality since it is somthing they corrected, recognized, and notified the community about and fixed.

Turbine has yet to provide a real support department. Far too many players will testify to that (and already have too).

last point they (turbine in game support) seemed useful to me i can testify to that. I may not always like the answer but its helpful.




I do not know how to change colors but i responded under each paragraph as best I could.

[MaximusParthas]

Send me a bug report in my email every week. That might make me feel informed.
Don't expect me to comb through thousands of posts to find out important news.

[Elation]

Send me a bug report in my email every week. That might make me feel informed.
Don't expect me to comb through thousands of posts to find out important news.

I do not want reports from turbine in my email every week, they do put information like that in the log in script you could take a second to read that as you log in. Searching thousand of posts really your on the forums enough you know it doest take that long to look it up if you need to.

Oh you could also check the known issues list hmmmm that does not take searching through thousands of posts either.

You seem a little bent out of shape over this have you tried running it today after the fix to these quests?

[Qhualor]

Send me a bug report in my email every week. That might make me feel informed.
Don't expect me to comb through thousands of posts to find out important news.

dev tracker is your friend. if its talked about there and listed in the known issues, than you dont have to search very far. bugs listed in general discussion threads are most of the time not bugs and not verified.

[sebastianosmith]

Actually, it does (constantly ... look at how often both players and devs mention the ladder bug over the years).

It hitches, is all. :)

HA! Touché, good sir. Touché! :)

[MaximusParthas]

I do not want reports from turbine in my email every week, they do put information like that in the log in script you could take a second to read that as you log in. Searching thousand of posts really your on the forums enough you know it doest take that long to look it up if you need to.

Oh you could also check the known issues list hmmmm that does not take searching through thousands of posts either.

You seem a little bent out of shape over this have you tried running it today after the fix to these quests?

Not yet. about to log in though.

You know, I'm more forgiving than I sound. I don't mind errors and issues. I do mind being used and wasting my time unnecessarily when it can be easily avoided.
ATM turbine has a contractual monopoly on D&D MMO content and they know it.
Lack of competition breeds complacency and arrogance.

[Ryiah]

Oh, really? Guess you haven't seen Vista then ;)

I helped beta test Windows Vista. A large source, in fact practically the only source, of problems was from older systems lacking the power or drivers to run Windows Vista. I had no problems myself but then I had hardware that was specifically picked out for good drivers. Most people didn't have that foresight. Of course in my case I wanted Linux support and typically the devices with good Linux support had great support for everything in general.

Windows Vista convinced me to try out Windows 7's beta. Windows 7 was so stable for me, even during the supposedly "beta" stages, that I pre-ordered it for the $50 they wanted and dumped desktop Linux altogether. I literally ran the beta editions right up till the release date and then switched to the release build.

[Bloodhaven]

Some people have completed the entire chain without any issues.

I had no issues with EE completions of all new content.


Oh and no named loot dropped the entire time.

[HungarianRhapsody]

All of the arguing over EULA and lawyering over whether a refund is required or not does miss at least a big part of the point that Turbine has been doing an absolutely HORRIBLE job of maintaining their software and

I don't mind bugs. I don't even mind big bugs. Bugs happen.

I do mind when the number of serious bugs increases over time instead of decreasing. I do mind when bugs that had previously been fixed repeatedly break again because of terrible version control. I do mind when you can't even complete the new content in an update since that means that Turbine didn't even bother to do any reasonable unit testing.

I mean, if you're going to ignore regression testing (and it's obvious that they do), then AT LEAST make sure that the new stuff works.

Hell, they're even screwing up their own release notes again.

[DethTrip]

It's sad because so many people love D&D and played it growing up, like myself (more than 25 years ago now), and they love the basic structure of this game. The problem is that Turbine stinks at programming and testing their product imo. I, like most of you, have played MANY other games and have never seen this many bugs in all of the others combined. I think this clearly backs my opinion. Turbine needs to hire some people that actually take pride in their work and actually work hard to make sure their paying customers receive a well tested, properly functioning AND fun product. A lot of fun is lost when you encounter bugs. If Turbine gives a **** about their reputation at all (and I'm seriously starting to believe they don't), then they need to make some staff changes and get some people in there that have the talent and desire to do a good job.

[Ryiah]

I do mind when the number of serious bugs increases over time instead of decreasing. I do mind when bugs that had previously been fixed repeatedly break again because of terrible version control. I do mind when you can't even complete the new content in an update since that means that Turbine didn't even bother to do any reasonable unit testing.

So don't buy from them. I've pretty much decided I won't touch new content until it is at the very least able to be completed. The only reason I pre-ordered the expansion was for those infinite tomes of learning. If it hadn't been for that, I likely wouldn't have bothered buying more than the base package.

[HungarianRhapsody]

So don't buy from them. I've pretty much decided I won't touch new content until it is at the very least able to be completed.

I've actually stopped buying from them.

It makes me sad. I like the game. I like what they're trying to do. I'm just really disappointed that they're SO bad at making it happen correctly. Especially when it's completely possible to fix most of the problems that they have by just putting some good practices into place to make sure that the right hand knows what the left hand is doing.

[knockcocker]

All of the arguing over EULA and lawyering over whether a refund is required or not does miss at least a big part of the point that Turbine has been doing an absolutely HORRIBLE job of maintaining their software and

I don't mind bugs. I don't even mind big bugs. Bugs happen.

I do mind when the number of serious bugs increases over time instead of decreasing. I do mind when bugs that had previously been fixed repeatedly break again because of terrible version control. I do mind when you can't even complete the new content in an update since that means that Turbine didn't even bother to do any reasonable unit testing.

I mean, if you're going to ignore regression testing (and it's obvious that they do), then AT LEAST make sure that the new stuff works.

Hell, they're even screwing up their own release notes again.

Agreed. I articulated similar concerns over their development practices in my 'Here's my feedback after dropping sub thread':

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=389361

I'm not egotistical; their feedback link, rather ironically, is broken also.

[deahamlet]

All of the arguing over EULA and lawyering over whether a refund is required or not does miss at least a big part of the point that Turbine has been doing an absolutely HORRIBLE job of maintaining their software and

I don't mind bugs. I don't even mind big bugs. Bugs happen.

I do mind when the number of serious bugs increases over time instead of decreasing. I do mind when bugs that had previously been fixed repeatedly break again because of terrible version control. I do mind when you can't even complete the new content in an update since that means that Turbine didn't even bother to do any reasonable unit testing.

I mean, if you're going to ignore regression testing (and it's obvious that they do), then AT LEAST make sure that the new stuff works.

Hell, they're even screwing up their own release notes again.

Very much what you said.

I really find it incomprehensible just how little version control they do. The last year has been filled with issues stemming from lack of version control. Fixing over and over is more costly!

[Synsuous]

These examples lack the most basic concept of common sense:
- how can you compare the money investment you make in a new car with that of a DDO subscription? Plus all the health implications and potential risks for yourself and others if the car makes wrong turns. Totally incomparable?
- how can you compare, again, selling poisoned food (which has general health implications) to DDO?

To me, to subscribe to DDO is more like buying a cake: if I like it enough, I'll buy it again next month. If I don't like it anymore for whatever reason, I won't buy it anymore. Maybe I'll try another cake, maybe I'll try another shop.
I won't ask the shop for a refund on a cake I didn't like, even if I am a cook myself and I know the cake was made by "incompetent" people. All that I would do is ignore the shop in the future, and maybe tell my friends not to go buy a cake there. Stop.

That doesn't make me happy with the current state of DDO, but these arguments are ridiculous...

Actually, in America, if you buy a cake from somewhere, try a piece and don't like it *most* shops will give you back your money. They don't have to, but it is a sign of good faith.

[Mathermune]

I do not know how to change colors but i responded under each paragraph as best I could.

Just remove the spaces

[COL OR=RED][/COL OR]

[Elation]

Just remove the spaces

[COL OR=RED][/COL OR]

Woot thanks you'd figure after almost 7 years I would know that!!

[adamkatt]

Someone not specifically you always makes the threat of oooh another MMO is coming out if turbine does not fix this or that such specific them I am leaving to try that one. If your unsure of how that works look over the Diablo 3 posts, and now the Guild Wars 2 posts.

I am calm and actaully I have had quite a few GMs help me out, by fixing minor things in quests that "bugged out", such as respawning mobs so on and so forth.

Also, they (the Senior GM) did in in game fix on one of my charactors after problems arised from a Lesser Res.

GM's in pen and paper constantly fix things if you ever ran a home campaign as a GM you would know this.

Also attacking spelling usually only means you can not argue the post.

I am not an English major nor do i care to be one.

So not spell checking this one either. Love forum grammar Nazis.

I didnt attack spelling i made a comment, that is all.

What does pen and paper DM's(not gms) have to do with ddo???

If a ddo GM fixes something in game that got past QA then its usually a bandaid. IE its still busted and most likely happen again.

[Hambo]

I wasn't aware reading the forums was a pre-req of playing the game. They should have that info during korthos walkthrough!

Why? 95% of the players wouldn't read it... :rolleyes:

[kyostal]

Not sure what the issue is... ive completed the chain 3 times now on Epic Elite, no issues.. 9 times on epic hard.. still no issues, and run Overgrowth an addition 10+ times in search of the shield, again.. no issues..

[Hambo]

Well, if I were some conspiracy theory follower, I would point to this as a reason of the present quality problems.
I mean Turbine certainly made some analysis on the impact Neverwinter release will have on the DDO - sudden turn towards FR somehow confirms it.

If this analysis has shown very serious problems for DDO's future, then some high ranked ppl may have decided to squeeze as much money from users as possible before N is released. That's why the speed new packs are released with could be considered most important factor - quality is not, as it will take some time for community to realise the problem exists at all, and the game's renown is not relevant, as the game itself would hardly survive competitor's release anyway.

But, as I stated at the start, it is just a conspiracy theory.

This is not correct. When DDO was first written Atari controlled the license for all "Electronic" versions of D&D, and graciously allowed Turbine to develop for the new plane at the time, Eberron. Atari reserved "Forgotten Realms" for their own developement.

Six years later, we've been through two lawsuits that drastically changed the situation:

1). Turbine vs Atari; The claim was that Atari was intentionally trying to kill DDO prior to their own D&D release by demanding excessive royalties and denying new content; Settled behind closed doors, probably at Warner Bros urging because they wanted to buy Turbine.

2). Hasbro vs Atari; The claim was that Atari's pending sale of Euro operations (including Codemasters?) to Hasbro's largest Asian competitor would have compromized Hasbro's D&D intelectual property (Hasbro owns Wizards of the Coast); as a result Atari lost control of "Electronic" D&D licensing.

With Atari out of the picture WotC and Turbine renegotiated and Turbine got access to greatly expanded D&D properties, excluding existing works and those in progress, such as NWN2. Hence, the new "Forgotten Realms" section of the game.

Knowing is half the battle.

[dterror]

This is not correct. When DDO was first written Atari controlled the license for all "Electronic" versions of D&D, and graciously allowed Turbine to develop for the new plane at the time, Eberron. Atari reserved "Forgotten Realms" for their own developement.

Six years later, we've been through two lawsuits that drastically changed the situation:

1). Turbine vs Atari; The claim was that Atari was intentionally trying to kill DDO prior to their own D&D release by demanding excessive royalties and denying new content; Settled behind closed doors, probably at Warner Bros urging because they wanted to buy Turbine.

2). Hasbro vs Atari; The claim was that Atari's pending sale of Euro operations (including Codemasters?) to Hasbro's largest Asian competitor would have compromized Hasbro's D&D intelectual property (Hasbro owns Wizards of the Coast); as a result Atari lost control of "Electronic" D&D licensing.

With Atari out of the picture WotC and Turbine renegotiated and Turbine got access to greatly expanded D&D properties, excluding existing works and those in progress, such as NWN2. Hence, the new "Forgotten Realms" section of the game.

Knowing is half the battle.

+1 for the history lesson. I hadn't been aware of the lawsuits you mentioned, nor that Atari had owned the rights to 'electronic' versions of D&D.

[Hambo]

I am pretty sure if gaming companies could charge upwards of USD 20,000 for a game or USD 200+ a month of a subscription we'd be looking at very different quality standards.

Cars you get for free will usually have a lot of issues, work even less than DDO and USD 10.00 does not give you unlimited access to fuel so you can go joy-riding whenever you want for an entire months. USD 10.00 doesn't even get you 3 gallons of fuel, which is good for less than 60 miles (in cases of a free car significantly less). The moment you take actual value into account your example falls apart. It just doesn't work. Trust me, you offer a car manufacturer no more than you would pay for a video game, it's not the car manufacturer that'd get ridiculed. They won't even bother look at your car for that low an amount, nevermind provide you any service (or product) of quality



Same here, you'd be renting an apartment for ten bucks a month you wouldn't get to complain about the smell. Turbine at the very least still allows you to complain.



Food vendors get away with selling you low quality; or you really think (most) Fast Food has any quality (from a nutritional point of view)? Software developers / companies are already held responsible for any actual damages they cause. What you are effectively asking for is for food providers to provide with a product that has the quality I expect from Ruth Chris, but sold for the price of a burger at McDonalds. You are talking about the same legislature which allows frozen pizza to be sold as vegetable because of the tomatoe sauce;(1) a sauce with enough sugar added into it, it actually would need to be classified as sweets and desert.

The issue is not that they can disclaim away liability, the problem is unrealistic expectations. People want lots of content and features in new games, frequent updates, high quality and everyone to check their work thrice before release, but no one wants to pay for it. So for a lot of gaming companies it has become an either or, prices are low and to make a profit they can either crank out update after update or take is slow, provide with half as much content/features but with less bugs.

Bill Gates himself even stated in a public interview that fixing bugs is not a priority for Microsoft since there is no money in it. The money is in new features and updates. Twenty years later Microsoft is still one of the most successful software companies out there. (2)

Also, just look at the gaming industries: Diablo 3 was released with a laundry list of bugs. People still bought it. I am pretty sure in a couple weeks people will find first bugs in GW 2 (great game, but I still fully expect there to be bugs). I am also convinced people will still buy it regardless. So, if big and highly anticipated titles like these don't change the industries, it is a bit unfair to expect it from a company with a six year old game, don't you think?

It'd require a significant change to fix it and the change would need to come from the market and not a sole provider. We would need to start rank games not only by size, content and features but also have a rating for if a game has more or less bugs than average. And we would need to stop buying games that are released with bugs no matter how fun they look. But that is about as likely to happen as people in general stop buying products from companies that produce abroad. Its not going to happen since it is not convenient and because that would mean we cannot afford a newer, larger televisions every few months and wouldn't get to play with all new toys instantly.(3)

(1). All the more odd since biologically speaking tomatoes are Fruit, except in U.S. Courts, and only then because the side that won the court case had better lawyers arguing their point, thus allowing them to pay the lower tax rate for growing vegitables.

"Ketchup is a Vegitable!" - Frank Zappa

(2) This quote is from the 90's as I recall. Since then Microsoft has done a near 180 degree turn. Win7 has had fewer security bugs than any other OS as of yet, and Microsoft last year had a better record of fixing what was found than Apple, who has a hard time admitting flaws in their products.

(3). Instant Gratification for the Immediate win! :eek:

[Hambo]

I don't come on these forums to chat with you or post cute kitten pics.
When I have an issue this is where I come. It's a place I know for certain turbine staff reads some of the threads.
now go away and leave me be before I report you for harassment.

Get a clue. The only thing Turbine is guaranteed to read are bug reports. Bug reports generate trouble tickets... programmers are rated (at review time) by the number of trouble tickets they successfully fix and close.

In "real life" call centers, such as working for a telco, your job is on the line every quarter... They bring a group of 30 "new hires" in, train them, put them to work and at the end of the quarter the lowest 30 performers are fired.

If I, as a programmer/technician spent my whole day going through the forums trying to find real problems I'd be fired before my probationary period ended.

[Elation]

It's sad because so many people love D&D and played it growing up, like myself (more than 25 years ago now), and they love the basic structure of this game. The problem is that Turbine stinks at programming and testing their product imo. I, like most of you, have played MANY other games and have never seen this many bugs in all of the others combined. I think this clearly backs my opinion. Turbine needs to hire some people that actually take pride in their work and actually work hard to make sure their paying customers receive a well tested, properly functioning AND fun product. A lot of fun is lost when you encounter bugs. If Turbine gives a **** about their reputation at all (and I'm seriously starting to believe they don't), then they need to make some staff changes and get some people in there that have the talent and desire to do a good job.

You probably have played alot of games, and if you look at pretty much every MMO out there as far as games go they all have alot of bugs specially ones with alot of added content after its initial release.

[Sarzor]

So don't buy from them. I've pretty much decided I won't touch new content until it is at the very least able to be completed. The only reason I pre-ordered the expansion was for those infinite tomes of learning. If it hadn't been for that, I likely wouldn't have bothered buying more than the base package.

I've personally stopped buying from them. Sure, I'll buy stuff with the free TP I get, but as of late I always seem to be on the edge of leaving due to bugs or what I perceive as a lack of good faith. This is not to say Turbine is doing anything illegal, so much as a perception of trying to squeeze dimes out of you, and not really even pretending to care. I do understand Turbine employees are for the most likely part good people, but the lack of customer service is a huge turn-off. Combining my lack of faith, I see and hear so many people who are displeased with the content, I have serious concerns about the long-term viability of the game itself. That also leads me to not spend real money, because hey, why would I put resources into a sinking ship?

I don't tend to play newly-released content, so I have relatively little to complain about there, but it is many other things. For example, I bought WF when it was on sale, and a few weeks later WF were boned. While vaguely annoyed with the disease/poison changes, they broke healer's friend. They broke perhaps the most widely used enhancement on a pay-to-play race, and didn't even pretend to care. The physics update a few months ago made many quests un-completable, and the reaction for a while was a vague shrug and a "we'll get to that sometime." Yes, yes, many of these things eventually get fixed, but many other things do not. There are years-old bugs which have gone un-fixed, or if they do fix them, they pop up an update or two later. And oh god, lag. So much lag.

Even these I feel I could better deal with if they were fixed. The problem is I don't see fixes in sight, just more money-grabs. I have played a number of other games, and when a major bug is discovered, it is fixed fairly quickly. When an exploit is discovered, those who abuse it are removed from the game, or at least lose their ill-gotten gains. In this game, the worst I've seen is someone banned for two weeks, and they come back and have all their stuff and no long-term issues.

Were I more confident bugs would be fixed, I would happily pay money, but I am not. The strategy I see from Turbine is to put all resources into developing new content as quickly as possible, followed by fixing stuff slowly, leave a few bugs, come out with more new content, etc, pull as much blood from the stone as they can, and then when the game simply is too unstable pull the plug and move on with life.

[Bosco]

90 minutes, 300+ heal scrolls, 30+ resurrection scrolls, 12 major pots and god knows how many other scrolls, wands etc later
I'm here to inform you that OUTBREAK on ELITE cannot be completed.

How in good conscious could turbine possibly and knowingly release updates that they KNOW are broken?
Yea sure. I want to pay you every month to waste my time and resources. And I just love pre-ordering content that doesn't actually work.
At some point you've got to be held accountable.
IMO that point will be the first time any MMO based on D&D is released besides yours. maybe NWN, I dunno. I do know your lack of customer concern and the way you treat us like idiots who should just smile and accept whatever you give us has reached a peak.

And please. if your about to write some sycophantic nonsense, don't. Keep it to yourself.

http://www.reviewer.fr/uploads/Aout/austin-powers.jpg

"And I want a 24k Gold Toilet. But some things aren't in the cards, baby."

[Hambo]

I helped beta test Windows Vista. A large source, in fact practically the only source, of problems was from older systems lacking the power or drivers to run Windows Vista. I had no problems myself but then I had hardware that was specifically picked out for good drivers. Most people didn't have that foresight. Of course in my case I wanted Linux support and typically the devices with good Linux support had great support for everything in general.

Windows Vista convinced me to try out Windows 7's beta. Windows 7 was so stable for me, even during the supposedly "beta" stages, that I pre-ordered it for the $50 they wanted and dumped desktop Linux altogether. I literally ran the beta editions right up till the release date and then switched to the release build.

^This. I ran Vista during beta, on a system I built from certified parts. Never had a problem. When I beta tested Win 7 the hardware requirements actually lowered a bit and Win 7 ran faster on my vista hardware.

Now I'm running Win8 betas. Once again I see improvements. The hardware requirements are significantly lower, depending on the version you buy, because Win8 will run on Arm-based tablets and smartphones as well as Intel/AMD based tablets, laptop and desktop systems.

[Elation]

I didnt attack spelling i made a comment, that is all.

What does pen and paper DM's(not gms) have to do with ddo???

If a ddo GM fixes something in game that got past QA then its usually a bandaid. IE its still busted and most likely happen again.

They fullfill similar rolls in some regards that is what is ment. On the fly mid battle DM realizes an error with an item given to a player, quick band aid adjust ment in mid game play to keep it fun and going then later revising the campign to adjust or fix the issue with said item.

Hmm seems kinda similar to me(OH just so you know I mean GM's and DM's).

You really are a word stickler lol you made a comment about "spell checking" there for it bothered you or it was the best you could do to knit pick at that moment, but whatever.

[GermanicusMaximus]

I always grin when I see it compared to Windows and people try to make DDO sound worse then Windows, which clearly shows lack of having done any homework on the topic of Windows in the first place.


Is this where you segue into the conversation that we had not too long ago, where you tried to convince me that Windows was only a 100 times more complex than DDO? Its amusing to see someone so uninformed about technological issues trying to lecture anyone about technology. Its even more amusing to see them lecturing others about a "lack of having done any homework on the topic".

Windows certainly does have a large number of bugs from an absolute standpoint, and is far from a paragon of quality. Things we can assert with certainty include:

1) Windows at least acknowledges and documents the bugs in its software. A list of known bugs in Microsoft software is kept by the company, and can be viewed by anyone with an internet connection. Turbine could learn a lot from this alone.

2) The size of the Windows code base far exceeds that of the DDO code base. In comparison, DDO is a toy, and a malfunctioning one at that.

3) The complexity of the Windows code base far exceeds that of the DDO code base. In comparison, DDO is a toy, and a malfunctioning one at that.

Adjusted for size and complexity (which any competent software professional will tell you is the only way to compare software in terms of quality), the number of bugs in Windows is far lower than the number of bugs in DDO. We should be thankful for that. Given how dependent the economy has become on functioning Microsoft software, if it suddenly degraded into the quality of DDO, we would likely be thrown into a deep global recession as businesses struggled to function.

DDO software is most assuredly substandard, by any reasonable measurement. Most troubling, its quality has been degrading at a rapid pace of late. Why? What has changed recently to account for this decline in quality? These are interesting and useful questions to ask. The fanboi response of denying the obvious is not a useful contribution to the discussion.

Regardless of what triggered this change, if has put DDO in a rather perilous situation. Declining quality and disruptive changes to game mechanics has triggered a substantial exodus of long term players. This has been offset somewhat (but by most accounts not completely) by an influx of new players pulled in by advertising. The point by point details of this situation are fairly straight forward:

1) Players of online games are by nature transient, but the length of time they stay in a game is also variable. A sizable number take a peek and are gone in short order (the one hour wonders of Korthos). Once they are hooked, however, there tends to be a fairly steady bleed rate over time (i.e. x% leave after 1 year, 2x% leave after 2 years, etc). At the tail end of the curve are the "hard core" players, who absent some triggering factor will be in the game until the doors close.

2) The declining quality and disruptive changes to game mechanics were a triggering factor that caused a fairly large number of "hard core" players to leave. They were a fairly substantial loss, since they were slowly accumulated over the entire 6 year history of DDO.

3) The new players brought in by advertising will follow the standard online game bleed rate.

4) Advertising proves less effective over time in selling anything, including online games. The low hanging fruit is picked early, especially when you can tempt them with "Come play DDO's new expansion!"

The net effect of the above is that, absent some significant change, DDO's game population is headed for a significant decline over the coming year. There simply is nothing to trigger enough new player inflow to offset the natural player "bleed rate" associated with all online games.

From a player's perspective, what does this mean? The cost to run a game server is almost trivial. Most of the expense of running an online game is associated with the creation of new content. The costs to create new content, like all software, is basically the same regardless of the number of users. This leaves a fairly limited number of options

1) The decreased number of remaining players will have to pay a higher cost per player for new content.

2) Less new content, with a higher percentage of revenue coming from DDO Store consumables.

3) New content will be created more cheaply, with a corresponding decline in quality.

All of the above options have the negative side affect of triggering even more players to leave. At some point, the player population falls below critical mass. People look around, see that people they know are disappearing on a daily basis, and decide its time to find a game that has a future. Death spiral. Game over. Maintenance only mode, with the fanbois running the same quests over and over, telling each other what a great game it is.

Yes, I know everything that I just wrote makes the fanbois fume. DDO makes them feel all happy inside, and that's all that matters to them. Turbine doesn't care. Its running a business, and the only thing that matters to them is economics.

Absent some significant game changing event, the future is clear. This game had one significant game changing event with the introduction of microtransactions. It was brilliant, and changed the face of the industry.

The game had a chance for a lesser game changing event with the expansion. WB went to bat for Turbine and secured rights to Forgotten Realms. We've all seen what Turbine did with that chance. 6+ year old niche online games don't get many chances. See each other in game, while you still can.

[Chai]

Is this where you segue into the conversation that we had not too long ago, where you tried to convince me that Windows was only a 100 times more complex than DDO? Its amusing to see someone so uninformed about technological issues trying to lecture anyone about technology. Its even more amusing to see them lecturing others about a "lack of having done any homework on the topic".

Windows certainly does have a large number of bugs from an absolute standpoint, and is far from a paragon of quality. Things we can assert with certainty include:

1) Windows at least acknowledges and documents the bugs in its software. A list of known bugs in Microsoft software is kept by the company, and can be viewed by anyone with an internet connection. Turbine could learn a lot from this alone.

2) The size of the Windows code base far exceeds that of the DDO code base. In comparison, DDO is a toy, and a malfunctioning one at that.

3) The complexity of the Windows code base far exceeds that of the DDO code base. In comparison, DDO is a toy, and a malfunctioning one at that.

Adjusted for size and complexity (which any competent software professional will tell you is the only way to compare software in terms of quality), the number of bugs in Windows is far lower than the number of bugs in DDO. We should be thankful for that. Given how dependent the economy has become on functioning Microsoft software, if it suddenly degraded into the quality of DDO, we would likely be thrown into a deep global recession as businesses struggled to function.

DDO software is most assuredly substandard, by any reasonable measurement. Most troubling, its quality has been degrading at a rapid pace of late. Why? What has changed recently to account for this decline in quality? These are interesting and useful questions to ask. The fanboi response of denying the obvious is not a useful contribution to the discussion.

Regardless of what triggered this change, if has put DDO in a rather perilous situation. Declining quality and disruptive changes to game mechanics has triggered a substantial exodus of long term players. This has been offset somewhat (but by most accounts not completely) by an influx of new players pulled in by advertising. The point by point details of this situation are fairly straight forward:

1) Players of online games are by nature transient, but the length of time they stay in a game is also variable. A sizable number take a peek and are gone in short order (the one hour wonders of Korthos). Once they are hooked, however, there tends to be a fairly steady bleed rate over time (i.e. x% leave after 1 year, 2x% leave after 2 years, etc). At the tail end of the curve are the "hard core" players, who absent some triggering factor will be in the game until the doors close.

2) The declining quality and disruptive changes to game mechanics were a triggering factor that caused a fairly large number of "hard core" players to leave. They were a fairly substantial loss, since they were slowly accumulated over the entire 6 year history of DDO.

3) The new players brought in by advertising will follow the standard online game bleed rate.

4) Advertising proves less effective over time in selling anything, including online games. The low hanging fruit is picked early, especially when you can tempt them with "Come play DDO's new expansion!"

The net effect of the above is that, absent some significant change, DDO's game population is headed for a significant decline over the coming year. There simply is nothing to trigger enough new player inflow to offset the natural player "bleed rate" associated with all online games.

From a player's perspective, what does this mean? The cost to run a game server is almost trivial. Most of the expense of running an online game is associated with the creation of new content. The costs to create new content, like all software, is basically the same regardless of the number of users. This leaves a fairly limited number of options

1) The decreased number of remaining players will have to pay a higher cost per player for new content.

2) Less new content, with a higher percentage of revenue coming from DDO Store consumables.

3) New content will be created more cheaply, with a corresponding decline in quality.

All of the above options have the negative side affect of triggering even more players to leave. At some point, the player population falls below critical mass. People look around, see that people they know are disappearing on a daily basis, and decide its time to find a game that has a future. Death spiral. Game over. Maintenance only mode, with the fanbois running the same quests over and over, telling each other what a great game it is.

Yes, I know everything that I just wrote makes the fanbois fume. DDO makes them feel all happy inside, and that's all that matters to them. Turbine doesn't care. Its running a business, and the only thing that matters to them is economics.

Absent some significant game changing event, the future is clear. This game had one significant game changing event with the introduction of microtransactions. It was brilliant, and changed the face of the industry.

The game had a chance for a lesser game changing event with the expansion. WB went to bat for Turbine and secured rights to Forgotten Realms. We've all seen what Turbine did with that chance. 6+ year old niche online games don't get many chances. See each other in game, while you still can.

Hilarious. The guy who calls me Turbines white knight is holding up Windows as a paragon of integrity regarding reporting / fixing bugs.

I dont fume. I merely point out how much more sense it makes to have a realistic view of the game and continue playing, than it is to complain repeatedly after every single update over the years, and continue playing for the same length of time. When people think Ford sucks for that long, they drive Chevys. When people think that BP sucks for 5 years they pull into exxon mobile instead. When people have had 6 years worth of bad experiences with HP, they buy Dell. When people think DDO sucks, they regularly point this out on the forums, then tab back in and play more DDO. Each time I see it, I continue to point it out. Ive heard no logical refutation to it yet, and do not believe there is one. :p

Regarding the Windows conversation, I think you are confusing me with someone else. Im pretty sure I know who you had that conversation with, but after you slap the "fanboi" label on everyone who disagrees with you, you likely think of them all as the same entity and thats where the differentiating ceases.

To scale, the number of bugs in Windows is NOT lower than the number in DDO. They ship with thousands of known issues, and tens of thousands of unknown issues. DDO has a list of less than 100, and people complain loudly about 4-5 bugs per update. Most people cant even list off a bunch from memory so they plow into threads screaming LADDER BUG Y-U-No-fix ZOMG!!!! The same people have been doing this for 5-6 years now.

The reality is each update has a small number of bugs that get patched in a small amount of time, usually less than a week, but since they affect gameplay, ability to complete quests etc - theres a small but loud contingent of players who kick and scream about it on the forums every_single_update. When I pull their collective card on that isuse pointing out how long they have been complaining about bugs, that get patched in 3-7 days, but are still using the product, hilarity ensues, and I get lumped in with the rest of those you refer to as fanbois, which is unrealistic at best. You see, the only difference between myself, and the other 99.999% of the noncomplainers, is that I regularly point out how it doesnt make sense to complain about a product for the better half of a decade but continue to use it.

And here you are predicting a drop off in headcount of players again. Ive seen this prediction many times on these forums. I have yet to actually see it occur, once. The argument of "if Turbine doesnt do what the Armchair_Developers_Union® demands of them, the game will lose players" has been waged since beta, where the same people were saying this game wouldnt last 6 months in the wild. Here we are 6 years later, and some of those same people still make the same exact argument over and over and over again, each and every update - to no avail. The often predicted mass exodus or net attrition loss never occurs, but that doesnt stop some of the same people from predicting headcount loss repeatedly. In fact, the very people who predict headcount loss repeatedly are still here after all that time, still predicting headcount loss. Ironic, no?

[llyrnionfor]

To scale, the number of bugs in Windows is NOT lower than the number in DDO. They ship with thousands of known issues, and tens of thousands of unknown issues.

How odd...

Perhaps you could point me to the URL describing these thousands of known issues...

[mystafyi]

And here you are predicting a drop off in headcount of players again. Ive seen this prediction many times on these forums. I have yet to actually see it occur, once.

just a quick note, First of all, the player base has dropped over the past few years. No reason to compare pre fall 2009 since that was before F2P/Store. Not drastically from any one source though.

Second, you quote by maj was proven incorrect by another turbine employee and Maj's OP was changed. Hence, the 5% number that participates in the forums is totally incorrect and should stop being used or referenced. Unless ofc, your intention is to pass misleading or incorrect information, or perhaps you are poking fun at Maj?

[Vint]

[QUOTE=Chai;4660787]Hilarious. The guy who calls me Turbines white knight is holding up Windows as a paragon of integrity regarding reporting / fixing bugs./QUOTE]

Let me ask you something.

Would you be in favor of Turbine adding +4 tomes to the store?
Would you be in favor of Turbine made every update from here on out cost $15 on top of your sub?
Would you be in favor of Turbine giving F2P/Premium Ginahold, Vale, and The Sands free?
Would you be in favor of Turbine raising the VIP sub to $30/month?

Do you dieagree with any of these? If so would you come to the forums and tell Turbine that you think it is wrong? Not that I am saying you personally (I am speaking of Fanbois)

I bet a Fanboi would not come and say that Turbine was wrong even if they thought one or more of these would ruin the game.

Deep down the "fanboi" knows what Turbine is doing is wrong (list above) but they will still refuse to speak a bad word for some crazy reason.

[Singular]

I helped beta test Windows Vista. A large source, in fact practically the only source, of problems was from older systems lacking the power or drivers to run Windows Vista. I had no problems myself but then I had hardware that was specifically picked out for good drivers. Most people didn't have that foresight. Of course in my case I wanted Linux support and typically the devices with good Linux support had great support for everything in general.

Windows Vista convinced me to try out Windows 7's beta. Windows 7 was so stable for me, even during the supposedly "beta" stages, that I pre-ordered it for the $50 they wanted and dumped desktop Linux altogether. I literally ran the beta editions right up till the release date and then switched to the release build.

I ran Vista on a Dell XPS 1330m - what a horrible combination. Crashing every day, sometimes every hour until the first patch. Then other problems. When microsoft offered a cheap upgrade to Win 7, took it and all those problems have been cleared up.

[Chai]

[QUOTE=Chai;4660787]Hilarious. The guy who calls me Turbines white knight is holding up Windows as a paragon of integrity regarding reporting / fixing bugs./QUOTE]

Let me ask you something.

Would you be in favor of Turbine adding +4 tomes to the store?
Would you be in favor of Turbine made every update from here on out cost $15 on top of your sub?
Would you be in favor of Turbine giving F2P/Premium Ginahold, Vale, and The Sands free?
Would you be in favor of Turbine raising the VIP sub to $30/month?

Do you dieagree with any of these? If so would you come to the forums and tell Turbine that you think it is wrong? Not that I am saying you personally (I am speaking of Fanbois)

I bet a Fanboi would not come and say that Turbine was wrong even if they thought one or more of these would ruin the game.

Deep down the "fanboi" knows what Turbine is doing is wrong (list above) but they will still refuse to speak a bad word for some crazy reason.

Everyone has their line drawn somewhere. People have tried to play the fanboi card with me and they are dead wrong. I have pointed out several times where I have not supported something Turbine did, and of course the irony there is many of the people who try to paint the fanboi label on me actually support what I dont. A prime example of this is pay to win mechanics in the store - which is your +4 tome example.

The thing I commonly point out is not just the complaining, but the length of time the same people complain, but never really do anything about it. There is only one possible explanation for this.

You say: Deep down the "fanboi" knows what Turbine is doing is wrong (list above) but they will still refuse to speak a bad word for some crazy reason.

The reverse about the pattern based complainers is also true.

Deep down the pattern based complainer knows what Turbine is doing most things right, but they will still refuse to speak a good word for some crazy reason.

Also: Instead of sticking with the issues at hand, over years of time the pattern based complainer will make repeated vague sweeping blanket statements about how quality has deteriorated, claim theres a large number of bugs (even though they cant name more than a few off the top of their head) and exagerate those bugs negative impact to make repeated predictions that the game is dying (note that the often predicted mass exodus never occurs).

Those who constantly complain over the years after every single update but keep playing the game know the same thing I do - that Turbine is doing everything 95%-99% correctly. Thats why they are still here. There are some people who actually do think the game is doing that poorly - but we dont hear from those people because they did the sensible thing and stopped playing a game they thought was low quality. They no longer play, and they no longer hang around the forums to create as big of a storm as they possibly can after each update. When I point this out, I get denial, covered up in blanket statements of mass exodus which never occurs.

As far as your fanboi explanation - where they will never say anything bad even if they feel the situation is terrible, here are a few more recent issues I posted my nonsupport on:

Artificers being sold in store but not being able to be unlocked in game for a length of time.
Artificers not free for VIP
Raid bypass. (pay to win)
+3 tomes (pay to win)
LR bug - yes this issue needs more priority than it has received.
Selling of fate points in the store which raises max fate point use (pay to win)

There are more. Note that on the pay to win issues, most of the people who try to paint the fanboi label on me actually voiced their support for buying convenience and character power in the store. They are more than willing to pay money into the system, then turn around and complain when the next change to the game is made, and when this is pointed out, label those who pointed it out fanbois and appologists. Actions speak louder than words. They can complain all they want - continuing to play the game and periodically paying into the system for more character power and convenience shows how they really feel about the total game - that Turbine did 95-99% of everything right.

The level of complaining about the rest is usually overexagerated, which is bad because when an actual issue does arrise that requires their immediate attention like the LR issue, that discussion takes the appearance of every singloe other thing that gets overexagerated around these parts, and gets ignored by the staff members as just another day at the office. I would rather their reaction to real serious issues be "you know, our forumites usually dont post this negatively, maybe we should review this" which draws attention to the issue. Instead the common reaction is "we change the game and theres another riot on the forums, what else is new". By overexagerating the issues at hand, the people repeatedly doing so are making their own beds on the issue, because its the same people who usually complain about the severe lack of communication by Turbine employees on the forums. Go figure.

[seebs]

Computer games are one of the few professions where you can have tons of errors,be a crappy programmer, and still get away with it

Computer games frequently have significantly lower rates of errors than, say, multi-thousand dollar commercially-used software.

We just mind them more because we're expecting to have fun.

[Singular]

You don't seem to have a grasp of, well, the game at all. It's completely designed around finishing each quest. Period.

According to what you've just said, everyone in the game should be satisfied and complacent should they never had been able to finish the first quests at level 1 on Korthos island and still be stuck there unable to continue on. As long as you and anyone else simply were able to PLAY the Korthos quests it doesn't matter about finishing them and continue on to more quests that REQUIRE you to finish.

Seriously? Just playing the quests is OK?

EULA - whatever.

I paid money for a game to WORK PROPERLY. If the seller doesn't comply or deliver what was promised then a refund is required.

Read: REQUIRED

Do you believe customer service hangs out in the forums, looking for posts like yours, so they can give you your money back?

You might need to call them to demand a refund. I'd love to give you one, but hey, I'm just a customer, too.

[Dysmetria]

[QUOTE=Vint;4660919]LR bug - yes this issue needs more priority than it has received.
I thought this issue had been fixed when they removed the NPC and then returned it?

I have not heard of anyone having any problems with a LR/GR/TR since....

[gordgray]

My only question: Why did you keep going when you got that it was bugged?


http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr40/chainmail/thwhat.gif

[Vint]

[QUOTE=Vint;4660919]The thing I commonly point out is not just the complaining, but the length of time the same people complain, but never really do anything about it. There is only one possible explanation for this.

I recently have seen that my pets are all missing. Including one that I paid for from the store. I looked over and talked to people and saw that they had been waiting months for an answer.

I submitted a ticket in game.
I submitted one on the forums. And sent multiple pms to admin.
I spoke with customer support over the phone.

What else could I do to remedy this? I would not complain if I were not getting a run around. I would not even be upset if they replaced the 600 tp for the kobold.

Are they fixing this problem? Possible, but some people have been waiting since mid-June for an answer. If I reported that there was a bug in my favor, they would shut down Massachusetts’s until it was fixed. This is also not an isolated problem. MANY others with the same problem.

This is the huge problem. You can overlook it as it doesn’t effect you, or is not game breaking, but with this many people getting jobbed, you would think that Turbine would do something about it.

Go ahead and pass over this rant though. I probably made it up and there is no problems or bugs at all.

If you think there is a problem what should I do though? Roll over and just expect Turbine to do nothing?

[Vint]

[QUOTE=Vint;4660919]Those who constantly complain over the years after every single update but keep playing the game know the same thing I do - that Turbine is doing everything 95%-99% correctly. Thats why they are still here.

I still play this game because I love it. What I dont love is when you or others pretend that there are not problems. I agree that Turbine is doing things right 95% of the time, but when it takes months (look at my previous post) to fix the 5% I do get upset.

[suitepotato]

Actually, the claim that software should have to keep to some standards and be in some semblance of working order before being sold is correct. Economic exchange by free will is predicated on expectations by each party. This a priori assumption of expectations based on representations made is the fundamental bedrock of such transactions and without it we're back to hunter-gatherer kill and take in about five minutes because that's where human interaction goes without trust as to starting premises and what follows.

Peaceful exchange of property relies on an honor system which the software industry for the most part shows little interest in making good on. Yes, they do a lot of work, but sort of works is not does work and does work is the most basic of expectations. No one else could disclaimer away all responsibility. We're not talking about emotional expectations, we're talking about mechanical. The thing is represented to do something, which it often doesn't, and the other party, Turbine, like many others, clearly doesn't care about that. If they did, they wouldn't release updates that didn't work and then, maybe, patch them later to, again, maybe, get them working as they were expected to at the start.

Either software publishers can take the position that they never meant for buyers to have an expectation that they work, which throws logic and reason right out the window, or they can stand up and say they are supposed to work, in which case they need to explain why they released the product knowing that it doesn't, and representing to the contrary, however silently but implicitly.

I don't expect the buyers to raise a ruckus about this at this point. Cynical disinterest in maintaining the necessary foundations of civilization itself is at an all time high.

[djl]

[QUOTE=Chai;4660787]Hilarious. The guy who calls me Turbines white knight is holding up Windows as a paragon of integrity regarding reporting / fixing bugs./QUOTE]

Let me ask you something.

Would you be in favor of Turbine adding +4 tomes to the store?
Would you be in favor of Turbine made every update from here on out cost $15 on top of your sub?
Would you be in favor of Turbine giving F2P/Premium Ginahold, Vale, and The Sands free?
Would you be in favor of Turbine raising the VIP sub to $30/month?



*shrug*

I hope they add +4 tomes to the store, honestly. They are regular loot from EE quests-- there's no reason why they shouldn't be a part of a temporary sale in the store.

And as for the last three, Turbine would be shooting themselves in the foot if they did any of that. Most, if not all of their VIP subscribers would simply cancel and play as premium. There would be no reason to remain VIP anymore.

None of that would be worth actually complaining about. It would certainly be disappointing, but the solution is clear as day-- go premium. Not much of an argument there.

[Chai]

[QUOTE=Chai;4699924]

I recently have seen that my pets are all missing. Including one that I paid for from the store. I looked over and talked to people and saw that they had been waiting months for an answer.

I submitted a ticket in game.
I submitted one on the forums. And sent multiple pms to admin.
I spoke with customer support over the phone.

What else could I do to remedy this? I would not complain if I were not getting a run around. I would not even be upset if they replaced the 600 tp for the kobold.

Are they fixing this problem? Possible, but some people have been waiting since mid-June for an answer. If I reported that there was a bug in my favor, they would shut down Massachusetts’s until it was fixed. This is also not an isolated problem. MANY others with the same problem.

This is the huge problem. You can overlook it as it doesn’t effect you, or is not game breaking, but with this many people getting jobbed, you would think that Turbine would do something about it.

Go ahead and pass over this rant though. I probably made it up and there is no problems or bugs at all.

If you think there is a problem what should I do though? Roll over and just expect Turbine to do nothing?

No. Youre talking about a specific issue. What the pattern based complainers do is make vague statements about things like "poor customer service" - "this game is dying" - 'when (insert new game here) comes out that will be the end of DDO" - "other games dont have these issues" - etc. Its been the same 20 or so people over the past 4-5 years now. Some have been here since day 1. I remember 2 of them making the prediction that DDO wouldnt survive 6 months after release if Turbine didnt do what the armchair developers union® demands of them. Lulz.

[Chai]

I still play this game because I love it. What I dont love is when you or others pretend that there are not problems. I agree that Turbine is doing things right 95% of the time, but when it takes months (look at my previous post) to fix the 5% I do get upset.

I dont pretend there arent issues. I pull the cards of people who do nothing else but rant about broad sweeping blanket issues after each game change to the point where its so predictable I could set a watch to it. I post on the 5% or so of stuff Id like to see better too, and frequently enough where those who actually want to review posting history on said issues can clearly see that I dont think its just all unicorns crapping rainbows. I also pick and choose my battles. If a bug exists that doesnt allow a quest to be completed for two days when the patch is released, Im not on the forums talking about how the devs and or QA team should be canned, demanding refunds for the entire expansion, telling everyone to boycott Turbine, and calling everyone who doesnt agree with that level of blanket hyperbole a fanboi or Turbine apologist, and then do this mechanically for 5 years after every single update, heh.

[seebs]

Actually, the claim that software should have to keep to some standards and be in some semblance of working order before being sold is correct.

Well, semblance it's got. :)

Software creates unique issues compared to basically all other trade goods. You can easily update software after you get it, and there's no significant cost to doing so.

I am all for improved quality in software, but the reason software is buggy isn't that software developers are somehow magically lazy and stupid unlike everyone else; it's that it's hard and it's still a fairly new field.

[HAL]

NM Apparently this was a semi-necro.

[Singular]

[QUOTE=Vint;4660919]

Everyone has their line drawn somewhere.

I agree with much of what you've written elsewhere - the complainers stay rather than leave, despite having so much hatred. In fact, they pretty much sound the same to me. Before coming reading these forums I didn't know a category of people could be labeled as "haters" but now I totally get it. And see them in other places, on other forums.

Anyways, why would people keep playing a game they seem to intensely dislike???

I totally love the game, so I play. The opposite makes no sense to me.

[Elucidus]

Computer games are one of the few professions where you can have tons of errors,be a crappy programmer, and still get away with it,DDO is no exception.I had a toyota that shortly after I bought it I found out the gas pedal would actually stick if I pressed it too hard. The only way to get the car to stop was either turn the engine off or hit the gas pedal harder (thus speeding up even more) to make it release. It was very reproducible and was a software problem. They didn't offer me a refund either, though I didn't have to use any Resurrection scrolls, so maybe that's why.

[Ranncore]

Hey guys. I haven't been posting because I haven't been playing, but I do keep my eyes on the threads with the faintest glimmer of hope that something will rekindle my interests in this game. Some of the outrageous claims in this thread have done exactly that, so I thought I would step in and try to clear some things up.

DDO subscriber numbers

It's pretty easy to get an estimate here. Check out silas' webpage, yourddo, which uses the myddo database. Check out the number of active guild members on each server and go from there. Keep in mind that many are alts.
MMOData.net had some pretty good info for me - it listed the peak of DDO subscriber numbers at 100k in 2010, at the height of its popularity. At the time, DDO was ranked #3 in MMOs by MMO hut. Using yourddo, I estimated today's DDO active player numbers as being somewhere around 100k, but I think I was being far too generous.
So I went over to Steam to check out how many people are playing over there. I know that most people who play DDO don't do it through Steam, but it still gives a pretty good idea of how popular the game is. DDO is actually on the Top 100 played Steam games - at its peak today, 770 people were logged onto DDO through Steam. That puts it at about number 80 out of the top 100 most popular games. Right behind Maple Story, Sims 3, and Plants vs Zombies, and right ahead of PAYDAY: The Heist, America's Army, and some other games I've never heard of. Torchlight 2 and Borderlands 2 having been taking up the #2 and #1 spots at about 50,000 and 100,000.

What DDO is worth

This isn't so complicated. Warner Brothers acquired Turbine, Inc. for 160 million dollars. A quick google will reveal that. Obviously, DDO isn't worth all of what Turbine is worth. But according to Yahoo Finance and Business Weekly, Turbine is only worth about 1/3 that amount now. You can be sure that someone is getting yelled at for this.
Interestingly, the CEOs (Mr. Jim Crowley) salary was listed - at a modest amount just over 100k. His projected bonus for this year was also listed - at about 50k.

I decided to stop over at the Better Business Bureau's website to check out what was going on with Turbine, but there wasn't much information there - the page is being updated. In the last 30 days there have been 126 inquiries about Turbine there. The last time I checked (a few weeks ago, right around the time I stopped playing), Turbine had a rating of B-. The FIRST time I checked (right before I pre-purchased MOTU), Turbine had a rating of A+.

I browse a few different forums dedicated to video gaming or MMOs in general. The other day, in one of the largest forums I go to - which has a few thousand active users logged on throughout the course of the day - in the wake of the release of Guild Wars 2, there was a thread that asked about the best Free to Play MMOs on the market. DDO was never mentioned. I didn't mention it either. DDO has an elaborate free trial system, but it's the very definition of Pay to Win. You can buy items, abilities, increased XP or SP generation, and content with superior loot from the store.

So anyways, I've been playing Torchlight 2 and FTL. Been checking out a few other MMOs. See you guys around.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

What the pattern based complainers do is make vague statements about things like "poor customer service" - "this game is dying" - 'when (insert new game here) comes out that will be the end of DDO" - "other games dont have these issues" - etc. Its been the same 20 or so people over the past 4-5 years now. Some have been here since day 1. I remember 2 of them making the prediction that DDO wouldnt survive 6 months after release if Turbine didnt do what the armchair developers union® demands of them. Lulz.

THe ancioent Romans had a saying or a proverb going like this :

"One must steadily throwing dirt at someone, one day something of that will hang on [even if the person is in reality innocent]."

I think that this is the pattern pursued by many here : "Do something for me (and for my Ego of course as well !!!11!11!1) or I'll spread false rumors !" This is like blackmail.


This isn't so complicated. Warner Brothers acquired Turbine, Inc. for 160 million dollars. A quick google will reveal that. Obviously, DDO isn't worth all of what Turbine is worth. But according to Yahoo Finance and Business Weekly, Turbine is only worth about 1/3 that amount now. You can be sure that someone is getting yelled at for this.

Like Face Book ? It ain't worth its initial price anymore, too. And who is that "someone" who will be yelled at for this within the Face Book firm ? And by whom ?

[Ryiah]

I ran Vista on a Dell XPS 1330m - what a horrible combination. Crashing every day, sometimes every hour until the first patch. Then other problems. When microsoft offered a cheap upgrade to Win 7, took it and all those problems have been cleared up.

Windows Vista is a bit unforgiving when it comes to hardware. If your hardware is too weak or lacks good drivers then you will have issues. Laptops make the whole situation worse because unlike desktops which are largely standardized, laptops are generally different internally compared to other laptops of similar specs from another manufacturer.

My history with Dell computers, or rather from repairing them for people, is that Dell is anything but a stellar product. They're near the bottom of my personal OEM preference list. I'm more inclined to go with a brand like Panasonic or Samsung because of past experience with their devices.

[Phemt81]

I think that this is the pattern pursued by many here : "Do something for me (and for my Ego of course as well !!!11!11!1) or I'll spread false rumors !" This is like blackmail.

Wow, you can't even imagine how much you're right!

+1 for speaking truth

[HungarianRhapsody]

I dont pretend there arent issues. I pull the cards of people who do nothing else but rant about broad sweeping blanket issues after each game change to the point where its so predictable

You also make the same type of posts about people who raise valid issues when valid issues arise and you pretend that they are part of the "sky is falling" group.

It's even more predictable since the "sky is falling" group is actually very small and very few people actually make claims that DDO will be doomed by some policy decision or specific game design fault.

Most people who complain about something in DDO make specific complaints and just want Turbine to fix what's broken and/or reverse a (perceived) foolish game design decision. For my part, I just want them to introduce fewer new bugs than the number of bugs they fix in each update. I'm even okay with an occasional bad update - I just want the average number of bugs introduced/killed to be a ratio under 1/1.

[Singular]

Windows Vista is a bit unforgiving when it comes to hardware. If your hardware is too weak or lacks good drivers then you will have issues. Laptops make the whole situation worse because unlike desktops which are largely standardized, laptops are generally different internally compared to other laptops of similar specs from another manufacturer.

My history with Dell computers, or rather from repairing them for people, is that Dell is anything but a stellar product. They're near the bottom of my personal OEM preference list. I'm more inclined to go with a brand like Panasonic or Samsung because of past experience with their devices.

I think you're right about Dell. I've started viewing their pcs as warrantees. As long as you've got the warrantee, you're good to go. If it lapses, the computer probably has about 6 months to a year of life.

[azrael4h]

Like Face Book ? It ain't worth its initial price anymore, too. And who is that "someone" who will be yelled at for this within the Face Book firm ? And by whom ?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveschaefer/2012/05/23/facebook-lawsuits-start-flying-targets-include-zuckerberg-morgan-stanley/

After their disastrous IPO, Facebook, it's founder Mark Zuckerberg, and investment firms all have been the target of multiple, multi-million dollar lawsuits. Looks like everyone in charge of Facebook, including it's CEO, is getting yelled at for the drop in value.

Not really relevant to the discussion anyway, but I wanted to point out that, in the US at least, corporations are legally bound to turn a profit for their investors. Companies can and have been sued by investors over poor results, and executives can and have been fired out of hand as well.

In the case of Turbine, I believe Warner Brothers owns it 100%, so if anything happens due to a drop in value, it will likely be a gutting of the upper management and replacements brought in to right the ship. They will, in turn, likely gut middle management, as all new management changes everything around regardless.

Not saying this will happen, as I have not even looked at anything regarding Turbine's current financial health.


I think you're right about Dell. I've started viewing their pcs as warrantees. As long as you've got the warrantee, you're good to go. If it lapses, the computer probably has about 6 months to a year of life.

Ugh... Dell. I've had to try and fix more Dells for people than any other maker, save maybe Gateway, which is/was just as bad. I usually tell them to get a better computer. My parents have had good luck with HP systems, but then they don't really push their PCs for gaming much.

[Chai]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveschaefer/2012/05/23/facebook-lawsuits-start-flying-targets-include-zuckerberg-morgan-stanley/

After their disastrous IPO, Facebook, it's founder Mark Zuckerberg, and investment firms all have been the target of multiple, multi-million dollar lawsuits. Looks like everyone in charge of Facebook, including it's CEO, is getting yelled at for the drop in value.

Not really relevant to the discussion anyway, but I wanted to point out that, in the US at least, corporations are legally bound to turn a profit for their investors. Companies can and have been sued by investors over poor results, and executives can and have been fired out of hand as well.

In the case of Turbine, I believe Warner Brothers owns it 100%, so if anything happens due to a drop in value, it will likely be a gutting of the upper management and replacements brought in to right the ship. They will, in turn, likely gut middle management, as all new management changes everything around regardless.

Not saying this will happen, as I have not even looked at anything regarding Turbine's current financial health.



Ugh... Dell. I've had to try and fix more Dells for people than any other maker, save maybe Gateway, which is/was just as bad. I usually tell them to get a better computer. My parents have had good luck with HP systems, but then they don't really push their PCs for gaming much.

Facebook will win most, if not all of those suits. There are quite a few precidents that these investors will find out where they cannot play the game risk free. This happens all the time in the corporate world, where investors try to make money and they are happy as long as those they invested in are profiting, but they minute they are not profiting they try to place the responsibility of their own investment decisions on the sinking corporation itself to eliminate all risk of their own decisionmaking. This almost never works.

So no, corporations are NOT responsible from a legal standpoint to turn a profit for investors. What the investor usually learns from trying to play the game risk free is that they should have pulled the plug on their investment sooner. What corporations are responsible for is the letter of the agreement they signed with said investor, and if zuckerman signed poorly thought out agreements, well, too bad for him. If he didnt, those investors thinking they can play the game risk free by making him responsible for their loss are about to find out what the word "risk" means in the investment game. The only time corporations are legally responsible for turning a profit for their investors is if this is in a contract somewhere. Not simply projections and such, but a signed agreement.

[Chai]

You also make the same type of posts about people who raise valid issues when valid issues arise and you pretend that they are part of the "sky is falling" group.

Only if that person is part of the sky is falling group so to speak. Its even more hilarious when they try to jump on me first with predictable accusations of being a fanboi and appologist. Other than point this out, I really dont need to respond to it directly.


It's even more predictable since the "sky is falling" group is actually very small and very few people actually make claims that DDO will be doomed by some policy decision or specific game design fault..

Indeed, and the fact that this group of 20 or so people have done that for 6 years after each update like clockwork is what I point out. None of their prophecies of Do0O0oM have come true.


Most people who complain about something in DDO make specific complaints and just want Turbine to fix what's broken and/or reverse a (perceived) foolish game design decision. For my part, I just want them to introduce fewer new bugs than the number of bugs they fix in each update. I'm even okay with an occasional bad update - I just want the average number of bugs introduced/killed to be a ratio under 1/1.

And they are. If Turbine showed us the back end database of all those bugs that got killed previous to making it live, people would see this for what it is, but alas they do not, and should not, as this is internal information only. The only things players see are bugs that make it to the live servers, versus what made it to lamannia (in a 99% already completed state) but was fixed before live. The devs arent allowed to go public with the number of internal bugs they fixed previous to going putting a build on lamannia, which is what we all have to use as a comparison tool. Historically what they put up on lamannia is very close to what will be released.

[azrael4h]

Facebook will win most, if not all of those suits. There are quite a few precidents that these investors will find out where they cannot play the game risk free. This happens all the time in the corporate world, where investors try to make money and they are happy as long as those they invested in are profiting, but they minute they are not profiting they try to place the responsibility of their own investment decisions on the sinking corporation itself to eliminate all risk of their own decisionmaking. This almost never works.

So no, corporations are NOT responsible from a legal standpoint to turn a profit for investors. What the investor usually learns from trying to play the game risk free is that they should have pulled the plug on their investment sooner. What corporations are responsible for is the letter of the agreement they signed with said investor, and if zuckerman signed poorly thought out agreements, well, too bad for him. If he didnt, those investors thinking they can play the game risk free by making him responsible for their loss are about to find out what the word "risk" means in the investment game.

Wrong. Corporations exist solely to make money for their investors and owners. While a company failing to turn a profit does not automatically mean it's liable in a lawsuit, that depends upon how they conducted business. All executives and directors are bound to act in the best interests of the company, which is to make decisions that increase profits. Where liability comes in is whether they act in the best interests of the company and simply are making mistakes, or acted in their own or some other company's interests instead. If they are found to have acted wrongfully, then they can be held liable, and are.

An example is a wholesale food distributor. If an executive owns a small grocery store, and recommends that the company institute a price cut for all small groceries, then he is acting against the company's interests. Investors who lose money can sue the company, and likely that executive specifically, over the matter.

GM being incompetently run, and cost cutting products until they are no longer remotely competitive, using low-cost Chinese slave labor camps for parts suppliers, spending marketing money on multiple brands operating in the same markets as one another (Saturn, Pontiac, and Chevrolet for example), and refusing to pay out for warranty costs whenever possible is not necessarily acting against the company's best interests. After all, cutting costs theoretically would create higher profits. However, the end result was a buying public increasingly going to other companies for their products, a poor brand image across the board which made it difficult to get new buyers into the showrooms, and even when they got a buyer, quality issues and failure to uphold any level of service after the sale resulted in massive lost sales. From more than 50% of the US market on down to 19.5% in 2009 (first modern number I found with a quick search).

GM isn't alone, all three of the US Automakers did much the same thing, and at one time 85% of the US market was held by GM, Chrysler, and Ford.

http://www.enotes.com/business-law-reference/corporations

In cases such as Facebook's, they hinge on whether or not the company's promoters mislead investors over the prospects and health of the company. In FB's specific case, the lawsuits allege that Zuckerberg mislead investors as to the profitability of FB, income from ads, income from selling personally identifying information to advertisers, etc... If he is found to have mislead investors, then not only will Facebook have a losing case, it's possible he will have to pay up personally as courts can and have held individuals responsible for their actions, instead of just the corporation. Normally decision makers are protected from liability, but courts can and will ignore that if they see fit.

Most likely, Facebook will not win these suits, but settle them out of court. This admits neither guilt nor proclaims innocence, and essentially is basically paying off the plaintiffs. They have already settled a couple class action lawsuits here recently, regarding other matters.

PR people shouldn't be making things up.

[Rauven]

all this stuff Azreal said

And now, more from Chia. Cue Chia for a long winded response that dances around facts, the topic and reality.



::Correction::
It's pronounced Chai. It was not my intention to imply that Chai is a flowing mint plant from Mexico, nor an over marketed object available for purchase from Rite-Aid.

[azrael4h]

::Correction::
It's pronounced Chai. It was not my intention to imply that Chai is a flowing mint plant from Mexico, nor an over marketed object available for purchase from Rite-Aid.

They still sell those things?

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Chai Tea is quite tasty, imho !

Return To Krondor (German Version) even has a recipe for Chai Tea among the buyable scrolls, in-game ! I've got a screenshot, even.

[Singular]

Windows Vista is a bit unforgiving when it comes to hardware. If your hardware is too weak or lacks good drivers then you will have issues. Laptops make the whole situation worse because unlike desktops which are largely standardized, laptops are generally different internally compared to other laptops of similar specs from another manufacturer.

My history with Dell computers, or rather from repairing them for people, is that Dell is anything but a stellar product. They're near the bottom of my personal OEM preference list. I'm more inclined to go with a brand like Panasonic or Samsung because of past experience with their devices.

I like two things about Dell:

1. They build very fast computers.
2. Great warranty support if you have paid for it.

Other than that, their computers break down quickly. I have spent a loooooooot of time on the phone with Dell trying to get my pc fixed. They actually gave me a new computer after a long list of problems with my first one - and the one they gave me, at the time, was totally awesome. I still use this one, it's a laptop, and can run DDO at its highest resolutions. But, true to Dell, it overheats like mad.

When people ask me what computer do they want to buy, I usually say "are you willing to spend the money to get a dependable one or do you want to spend the money to get a dependable warranty?"