AC Tank - What to aim for

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Hi

So since all the AC changes I am wondering what the new ideal AC to strive for is for an AC Tank.

I have a Heavy Armor Tank that is using the Sentinal destiny which is almost at rank 5. I am currently at 156AC without external buffs. My PRR is 146sih , dodge 6%.

I have more AC I can get from gear and twists .... just wondering what others opinions are on where the sweet spot is.

Ideally he will be a Epic Elite Raid tank for those quests that need one. Just wondering how much more I should try to grind out?

[Ranncore]

In Epic Elite PRR and Dodge are much more important - I don't think there's an achievable player AC that equates to any serious damage mitigation in end game. At least, 150 AC doesn't seem to cut it - even at a 50% miss chance, when they're slicing 10 times a swing, at 200dmg a pop, you'll need more than AC to stand in front of them.

IMO AC needs a boost. I like the introduction of Dodge and PRR to the mechanic, but AC is very lackluster, even after a LOT of investment.

[Ranncore]

150ish is the highest I've seen so far, anyways, and having healed that person through a few Epic Elites, I can say this - you are better off with DPS. Kill them faster than they can kill you.

*edit - this char was a monk with, i assume, almost no prr. how did you get yours to 140?

[xxScoobyDooxx]

2nd life Human - 3 dragon marks sentinal - Unyeilding Sent destiny - Heavy Armor - Tower Shield - Fang Helm and sword level 23 figther - defender.

I take next to no damage in Epic Hard - Can have 10 monsters on me with dungeon alert red and still take next to no damage. I solod 2 of the new quests last night on Epic Hard with no healer and used no pots.

Epic Elite is completely different - however I still take damage slowley from trash. Healers can scroll heal me generally.

Your comments about killing quickly are correct but if there's no CC most "no AC" melee are dieing in 2 or 3 swings.

In our guild lately we have been using a stratergy of me intim the trash with my back to the wall and the rest of the party kills them one at a time from behind. Works well if you have no CC. (which has been common of late). If theres lots of trash K the barbarian gets all the agro and runs around like a loony while I agro one at a time and rest attack it from behind. Makes for fun adventuring.

[Kmnh]

Nothing controls crowds as effectively as a desperate barbarian running for his life and shouting "hjeeel me!" over voice chat does:D

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Nothing controls crowds as effectively as a desperate barbarian running for his life and shouting "hjeeel me!" over voice chat does:D

good times indeed :)

[redspecter23]

It's hard to pinpoint a usable AC in epic elites. I'll have to do a bit more testing myself. The AC tooltip is near useless. I'm guessing your 150ish AC probably puts you close to the soft cap 75% mitigation for "at level" mobs. I really have no clue how epic elite mobs compare to "at level".

I know that 130ish puts one in a very good defensive position in epic hard, but I'd also like to know what % of mobs will land hits on a 75% mitigated toon on epic elite. Basically, what does "at level" mean in the tooltip? If the epic elite mobs are considered much higher than that, then you are receiving much more AC benefit per point that the tooltip would lead you to believe. The new AC system still hurts my brain.

[DDOisFree]

I've been having a similar argument the last two days with seemingly mentally challenged players who still think that tank = AC, HP, and fighter class only in DDO. Everyone with this mentality is so wrong that I can't believe how they are still decieved that HP and AC alone makes a tank.

I'm currently making a dex based 7 monk / rogue (Ninja Spy + Assassin) who has ok AC, plenty of dodge, DR, godly reflex and evasion, and 25 incorporeal miss chance, and vampiric fury shortswords. I zerg into huge mobs of enemies and all I see is gray words above my character saying 'miss, dodge, incorporeal, evade' and you can even throw a blur on top too, while your silly fighter tanks are taking damage from almost everything and needing too many heals.

This became very evident in a few elite TS runs at BB level. In the first I did there was no one willing to tank Sorjek while the puzzle was done so I volunteered. I just stepped in and started beating on him and my red bar was barely dented at all (nothing more than I could heal myself with a wand). The next two runs I'm offering to do the same, but all the braindead fighters in the group are like 'lol you can't tank, we have twice as much HP as you). So a fighter goes in to tank. 400 HP down to 100 in mere seconds from one single spell and I'm just LMAO at how dumb peoples opinions are when it comes to tanking. Even pale masters make vastly better tanks than fighter classes do nowadays.

Also epic chrono end boss is beyond amusing, 90% of pug fighters who claim to be confident tanks I get while playing on my Wizard fail so fast and hard it is unbelievable. My rogue before I TRed him to the above build could tank him all day with minimal damage, and all spells evaded.

So what makes a good tank in DDO? NOT HP and AC, but Dodge, reflex, evasion and any other miss chance you can add to yourself, and honestly dark monks are the best class for that (extra props if you can UMD / Clickie your own fireshields and displacements like I do).

And no, just splashing two monk or rogue levels onto your fighter doesn't make you a reflex tank either, your reflex save will be too **** for that. If you can't pull off at least 45 reflex save then IMHO you don't make a tank. Paladins can be pretty awesome tanks with evasion added to them, but fighters no.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

I've been having a similar argument the last two days with seemingly mentally challenged players who still think that tank = AC, HP, and fighter class only in DDO. Everyone with this mentality is so wrong that I can't believe how they are still decieved that HP and AC alone makes a tank.

I'm currently making a dex based 7 monk / rogue (Ninja Spy + Assassin) who has ok AC, plenty of dodge, DR, godly reflex and evasion, and 25 incorporeal miss chance, and vampiric fury shortswords. I zerg into huge mobs of enemies and all I see is gray words above my character saying 'miss, dodge, incorporeal, evade' and you can even throw a blur on top too, while your silly fighter tanks are taking damage from almost everything and needing too many heals.

This became very evident in a few elite TS runs at BB level. In the first I did there was no one willing to tank Sorjek while the puzzle was done so I volunteered. I just stepped in and started beating on him and my red bar was barely dented at all (nothing more than I could heal myself with a wand). The next two runs I'm offering to do the same, but all the braindead fighters in the group are like 'lol you can't tank, we have twice as much HP as you). So a fighter goes in to tank. 400 HP down to 100 in mere seconds from one single spell and I'm just LMAO at how dumb peoples opinions are when it comes to tanking. Even pale masters make vastly better tanks than fighter classes do nowadays.

Also epic chrono end boss is beyond amusing, 90% of pug fighters who claim to be confident tanks I get while playing on my Wizard fail so fast and hard it is unbelievable. My rogue before I TRed him to the above build could tank him all day with minimal damage, and all spells evaded.

So what makes a good tank in DDO? NOT HP and AC, but Dodge, reflex, evasion and any other miss chance you can add to yourself, and honestly dark monks are the best class for that (extra props if you can UMD / Clickie your own fireshields and displacements like I do).

And no, just splashing two monk or rogue levels onto your fighter doesn't make you a reflex tank either, your reflex save will be too **** for that. If you can't pull off at least 45 reflex save then IMHO you don't make a tank. Paladins can be pretty awesome tanks with evasion added to them, but fighters no.

Please make your own thread ... I am sure your UBBA evasion monk rogue will rock on epic elite and good for you.

My thread is asking people who are going for max AC, as to there opinions, based off experience and or calculations as to what the new AC target to strive for is.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

It's hard to pinpoint a usable AC in epic elites. I'll have to do a bit more testing myself. The AC tooltip is near useless. I'm guessing your 150ish AC probably puts you close to the soft cap 75% mitigation for "at level" mobs. I really have no clue how epic elite mobs compare to "at level".

I know that 130ish puts one in a very good defensive position in epic hard, but I'd also like to know what % of mobs will land hits on a 75% mitigated toon on epic elite. Basically, what does "at level" mean in the tooltip? If the epic elite mobs are considered much higher than that, then you are receiving much more AC benefit per point that the tooltip would lead you to believe. The new AC system still hurts my brain.

I think my 156 AC was around 77% miss chance at level and I'm currently level 23. (it's higher than 75% and lower than 79% I think ... I'll need to check)

From my experience so far ... you can solo everything in Epic Hard with 150+ AC and 140+ PRR. You take very little damage and only over an extended period of time. i.e 30 seconds to take 200 dmg (I have 1200ish HP)

Surely im not the only mug in DDO trying a Max AC build tank after update 14 ?

[Duncani_Daho]

Mogardhal has the epic Mournlode FP, with the alchemical stone of change bonus added but not the Epic tier 2 upgrade yet. He can improve his +5 Tower shield to +6 and add the alchemical for that, giving him a +2 bump. That would give him a self-sustaining AC of around 145.

He is level 23 toon (14 fighter, 6 paladin), with level 4 Unyielding Sentinel. He can get another +3 to AC with Haste and Recitation. And I think another +2 to AC when he equips his +7 protection item. That would cap him around 150 AC with buffs.

His dodge maxes out around 5%, but juggling enhancements points I think he could get that up to around +8% dodge. At level 24 I expect him to have around 1350 hp.

Anyway, I am fairly confident that Epic Elite dungeons would shred this toon. He might be able to find a role by tripping mob casters, pinning down single target names with decent hate generation while the party casters dot the mobs, but Defenders just don't have the OMG qualities that other classes/destinies have.

That being said, I really value the experience-- the totally unique and very DnDish experience-- of playing a Defender class in epic quests.

Epic Hard is still a joke anyway. Way, way, way too easy.

[Ew_vastano]

as was said earlier ac is unimportantish now my monk has variable 110 - 128 ac but its not the ac cuts it in epic elites its the dodge, incorpreal (yes she is dark) displacement

unfortunatly with next to no prr when she gets hit she gets hit extremaly hard

ac is just a number now its the miss chance, prr and dodge that counts the most if you are missing one of the 3 then you will get hit

dependant on wich one you are missing you either get hit more or get hit harder

[Ew_vastano]

I think my 156 AC was around 77% miss chance at level and I'm currently level 23. (it's higher than 75% and lower than 79% I think ... I'll need to check)

From my experience so far ... you can solo everything in Epic Hard with 150+ AC and 140+ PRR. You take very little damage and only over an extended period of time. i.e 30 seconds to take 200 dmg (I have 1200ish HP)

Surely im not the only mug in DDO trying a Max AC build tank after update 14 ?

not totaly true my monk can solo pretty much everything epic hard with 110 self buffed with the grand total of either 0 or 30 prr dependant on stance

lets put it this way 20% dodge chance 65% miss chance so theorieticly only 1 in 4 swings hits

now add displace 50% miss chance then add 25% incorpreal

so of those 1 in 4, 75% miss

so if avarages equal out i will only get hit once in every 16 swings and if i havnt killed a mob in 16 rounds (bosses aside) i should reroll

[akash]

not totaly true my monk can solo pretty much everything epic hard with 110 self buffed with the grand total of either 0 or 30 prr dependant on stance

lets put it this way 20% dodge chance 65% miss chance so theorieticly only 1 in 4 swings hits

now add displace 50% miss chance then add 25% incorpreal

so of those 1 in 4, 75% miss

so if avarages equal out i will only get hit once in every 16 swings and if i havnt killed a mob in 16 rounds (bosses aside) i should reroll

Soloing is not the question here, AC tanks come in team play. May I ask what's your Monk's intimidate skill and how much hate it generates? I'm asking it because almost every-time when I let a Monk tank instead of me or other Paladin/Fighter with stance failed to hold aggro even with Earth Stance and we had to change the plan. My 28 point build Greater Dragon Marked of Sentinel first life pally (totally gimped and useless before u14) is now a God like being with Unyielding Sentinel 5 epic destiny and eCFang. It simply stays in God Mode, and never gets killed except in Shroud. My Pally is currently standing at 136 AC (75% Defence chance at level), 144 PRR (Unbreakable stance), 64 fort, 48 reflex, 44 will (Stand Against the Tide) with a 75 intimidate skill (without Epic Brawn Spirits & +6 GS CHA skill item, 86 with those items) can tank any boss in Epic Hard. Currently it has 0% dodge but it barely takes any damage. When I'll start doing Epic Elites, I'll start UMD scroll displacement, and I'll have Torc and Concordant Opposition GS item by then. Therefore, even if I get hit by 150-200 damage, it will cost only 12 sp to recover that damage.

[Antiguo]

Nothing controls crowds as effectively as a desperate barbarian running for his life and shouting "hjeeel me!" over voice chat does:D

Why do i have the feeling that you are that "K" the barbarian? huh?

[Antiguo]

Soloing is not the question here, AC tanks come in team play. What's your Monks's intimidate skill and how much hate it generates? I'm asking it because almost every-time when I let a Monk tank instead of me or other Paladin/Fighter with stance failed to hold aggro even with Earth Stance and we had to change plan. My 28 point build Greater Dragon Marked of Sentinel first life pally (totally gimped and useless before u14) is now a God like being with Unyielding Sentinel 5 epic destiny and eCFang. It's simply stays in God Mode, and never gets killed except in Shroud. My Pally currently standing at 136 AC (75% Defence chance at level), 144 PRR (Unbreakable stance), 64 fort, 48 reflex, 44 will (Stand Against the Tide) with a 75 intimidate skill (without Epic Brawn Spirits & +6 GS CHA skill item, 86 with those items) can tank any boss in Epic Hard. Currently it has 0% dodge but it barely take any damage. When I'll start doing Epic Elites, I'll start UMD scroll displacement, and I'll have Torc and Concordant Opposition GS item by then. Therefore, even if I get hit by 150-200 damage, it will cost only 12 sp to recover that damage.

If you think he's now godmode, wait until you get around 10% dodge, get ghostly and start whit that displace scrolling

[Uska]

I think my 156 AC was around 77% miss chance at level and I'm currently level 23. (it's higher than 75% and lower than 79% I think ... I'll need to check)

From my experience so far ... you can solo everything in Epic Hard with 150+ AC and 140+ PRR. You take very little damage and only over an extended period of time. i.e 30 seconds to take 200 dmg (I have 1200ish HP)

Surely im not the only mug in DDO trying a Max AC build tank after update 14 ?

Right now my level 21 paladin can hit about ac 130 dodge 6% and 135 prr and he usually takes little damage on epic hard and that he can take care with his regenerating lay on hands

[Ew_vastano]

Soloing is not the question here, AC tanks come in team play. May I ask what's your Monk's intimidate skill and how much hate it generates? I'm asking it because almost every-time when I let a Monk tank instead of me or other Paladin/Fighter with stance failed to hold aggro even with Earth Stance and we had to change the plan. My 28 point build Greater Dragon Marked of Sentinel first life pally (totally gimped and useless before u14) is now a God like being with Unyielding Sentinel 5 epic destiny and eCFang. It simply stays in God Mode, and never gets killed except in Shroud. My Pally is currently standing at 136 AC (75% Defence chance at level), 144 PRR (Unbreakable stance), 64 fort, 48 reflex, 44 will (Stand Against the Tide) with a 75 intimidate skill (without Epic Brawn Spirits & +6 GS CHA skill item, 86 with those items) can tank any boss in Epic Hard. Currently it has 0% dodge but it barely takes any damage. When I'll start doing Epic Elites, I'll start UMD scroll displacement, and I'll have Torc and Concordant Opposition GS item by then. Therefore, even if I get hit by 150-200 damage, it will cost only 12 sp to recover that damage.

fyi i pretty much run everything EE, however only thing can take agro off me (tanking elite tod, vod chrono etc) is that goddamn sorc triple dotting

if you wanna intim agro from a hate tank then so be it

but i will agree a well built pally tank is quite simply the best there is atm

doesnt alter the fact that my 110 ac holds as a tank your 136 ac holds up as a tank proving with the ac changes, ac is now just a number with no real meaning

therefor there is no reason that scoobies 156 ac shouldnt cut it as is long as everything else is set up right

[akash]

fyi i pretty much run everything EE, however only thing can take agro off me (tanking elite tod, vod chrono etc) is that goddamn sorc triple dotting

if you wanna intim agro from a hate tank then so be it

but i will agree a well built pally tank is quite simply the best there is atm

doesnt alter the fact that my 110 ac holds as a tank your 136 ac holds up as a tank proving with the ac changes, ac is now just a number with no real meaning

therefor there is no reason that scoobies 156 ac shouldnt cut it as is long as everything else is set up right

Monks are very good soloing class specially the Half Elf ones with Cleric dilettante, mainly because they can, easily heal themselves, CC and Insta Kill most of the epic elite trashes. However from my experience they are horrible choice for a tank. A tank doesn't mean to stay alive or take next to no damage but an ideal tank means to keep others (specially high DPS Arcane casters) safe by grabbing enemy attention all the time. May be you are an exception and a very good build but most of the Dark Monks can't break the Devil DR and thus unable to hold the aggro even in level 20-22 raids like VOD, TOD etc. It never happened in my case, I never miss an attack roll and usually do minimum of 100+ damage every hit. With hate gears and enhancement it's really hard to get away from me. I agree with you about AC though. After u14 it's just a number, high AC is good but there is no 100% safe AC any more which was available before u14.

[oweieie]

most of the Dark Monks can't break the Devil DR

Herp a derp?

Monks are **** tanks because they can't get decent PRR and PRR is what matters. AC is meaningless. No matter how good your dodge or incorp is, if a couple big hits land back to back, you're pretty much screwed.

[akash]

Herp a derp?

Monks are **** tanks because they can't get decent PRR and PRR is what matters. AC is meaningless. No matter how good your dodge or incorp is, if a couple big hits land back to back, you're pretty much screwed.

I have said it earlier, and since you probably didn't get it, I'm saying it again in a different way, "all tanks are near to immortals but not all immortals are tanks". What I meant by this is what kind of tank you will become if you can't protect your fellow skinny wizzy in her beautiful red silk dress from getting chased by angry muscle men? Monk or not, a tank must have high hate generation, and high intimidate otherwise all those PRR, AC, Dodge, Saves have no meaning at all.

[Ranncore]

I have said it earlier, and since you probably didn't get it, I'm saying it again in a different way, "all tanks are near to immortals but not all immortals are tanks". What I meant by this is what kind of tank you will become if you can't protect your fellow skinny wizzy in her beautiful red silk dress from getting chased by angry muscle men? Monk or not, a tank must have high hate generation, and high intimidate otherwise all those PRR, AC, Dodge, Saves have no meaning at all.

This is true, but I'm not sure AC even deserves a place in the equation right now.

[akash]

This is true, but I'm not sure AC even deserves a place in the equation right now.

Well perhaps for Epic Elites it doesn't but for Epic Hard and below, AC is still golden.

[dimster28]

And no, just splashing two monk or rogue levels onto your fighter doesn't make you a reflex tank either, your reflex save will be too **** for that. If you can't pull off at least 45 reflex save then IMHO you don't make a tank. Paladins can be pretty awesome tanks with evasion added to them, but fighters no.

sad but my fighter just prove you wrong, my fighter is 18 fighter/2 monk, his reflex saves is 51

plus my ac is 135 and i have 123 PRR, and also 22% dodge. my health is 1106

[TheMyrte]

So since all the AC changes I am wondering what the new ideal AC to strive for is for an AC Tank.

I have more AC I can get from gear and twists .... just wondering what others opinions are on where the sweet spot is.
Ideally he will be a Epic Elite Raid tank for those quests that need one. Just wondering how much more I should try to grind out?

YMMV but with these numbers I 'm telling you Epic Elite IS tankable.
My numbers are only slightly higher then yours, but not much. Sure, it's not the godmode Epic hard or normal is, but you'll take a lot less damage then others. I duoed most epic elites with a friendly caster. So we had no 'healer' and managed just fine. With your numbers you'll be just fine. Even the red nameds miss you quite a bit.

That said : what is the sweet spot ? I think the correct answer is : "as high as you can possibly get without neglecting any other aspect of your toon." I've seen usually my AC= my PRR, while my dodge is totally defined by my armor choice. And then you need threat, Heal Amp, Hp, saves, etc etc etc. once you got all these, you can look again at improving AC/PRR. And ofc you realise the higher you go the smaller the benefits of the increase... But once you have all the rest in place ... why not push for the max ?

Ppl saying AC is meaningless in Epic elite... I wonder ? I've played both a barb and my tank in epic elites. The tank gets by easily and gets missed a lot, the barb gets shredded horribly if he doesn't have a babysitter or crowd controller (pref both). AC is as much a part of his defences as dodge and PRR.

my 2c.
Myrte

[ValenGodspeed]

just wondering what others opinions are on where the sweet spot is.

Ideally he will be a Epic Elite Raid tank for those quests that need one. Just wondering how much more I should try to grind out?

So can we conclude that the new system ends us up with a much more unclear idea where the sweet spot is? My paladin have comparable stats and is my first try on an AC build so I would also like all the input I can get before throwing him at an EE encounter.

So is PRR in the 150 range the aim?
Dogde, as high as possible - but should one try to up dodge at the cost of AC?
AC, 140 +/- 20 is ok?
...How does damage reduction fit into the equation?

[emptysands]

Hi

So since all the AC changes I am wondering what the new ideal AC to strive for is for an AC Tank.

I have a Heavy Armor Tank that is using the Sentinal destiny which is almost at rank 5. I am currently at 156AC without external buffs. My PRR is 146sih , dodge 6%.

I have more AC I can get from gear and twists .... just wondering what others opinions are on where the sweet spot is.

Ideally he will be a Epic Elite Raid tank for those quests that need one. Just wondering how much more I should try to grind out?

As an example Tharmalos on EE has a tohit of about 110.

At 156AC (10.5+110)/2/AC = 38.6% chance to hit, then 38.6% * (1 - 0.06 ) = 36.3% If you had ghostly it would be 32.7%.

PRR is 0.65*(1–(0.99^PRR)) = 50%.

So out of 100 swings of 200 dmg per hit. 33 will hit for 100 dmg = 3,300 dmg out of total 20,000 dmg.

If you intimidate and block, you'll also have DR. Not sure if that comes before or after PRR.

A melee with PRR 40ish, AC 60ish and Dodge 6% will have no effective AC so get missed 95% * (100% - 6%) = 89.3% of the time. 40 PRR gives DMit of 21.5%. So 100 swings of 200 dmg is 98 * 157 = 15,386 dmg.

[Faent]

And no, just splashing two monk or rogue levels onto your fighter doesn't make you a reflex tank either, your reflex save will be too **** for that. If you can't pull off at least 45 reflex save then IMHO you don't make a tank. Paladins can be pretty awesome tanks with evasion added to them, but fighters no.

Fracking noobs.

[Cade_Wells]

Hi

So since all the AC changes I am wondering what the new ideal AC to strive for is for an AC Tank.

I have a Heavy Armor Tank that is using the Sentinal destiny which is almost at rank 5. I am currently at 156AC without external buffs. My PRR is 146sih , dodge 6%.

I have more AC I can get from gear and twists .... just wondering what others opinions are on where the sweet spot is.

Ideally he will be a Epic Elite Raid tank for those quests that need one. Just wondering how much more I should try to grind out?

anychance of a break down on that AC?

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Nothing controls crowds as effectively as a desperate barbarian running for his life and shouting "hjeeel me!" over voice chat does:D

Brilliant!

[Faent]

I have a Heavy Armor Tank that is using the Sentinal destiny which is almost at rank 5. I am currently at 156AC without external buffs. My PRR is 146sih , dodge 6%. I have more AC I can get from gear and twists .... just wondering what others opinions are on where the sweet spot is.

Drop AC and PRR a bit. Boost Dodge and your REF save and pick up Evasion. The sweet spot is a combination of all these factors. Going for AC and PRR alone is the gimpspot. The diminishing returns from getting, e.g., high AC numbers, make it foolish to go for high AC numbers. Get reasonably high AC, PRR, and Dodge. That's better than very high AC and PRR and low Dodge. Work in Evasion and a high REF save, and you'll be way better off still.

[Zerkul]

Hi

So since all the AC changes I am wondering what the new ideal AC to strive for is for an AC Tank.

I have a Heavy Armor Tank that is using the Sentinal destiny which is almost at rank 5. I am currently at 156AC without external buffs. My PRR is 146sih , dodge 6%.

I have more AC I can get from gear and twists .... just wondering what others opinions are on where the sweet spot is.

Ideally he will be a Epic Elite Raid tank for those quests that need one. Just wondering how much more I should try to grind out?

Here's the new commandment for Tanking Survivability: multiple damage mitigation forms with average amount are better than few with extreme amount.

My fighter has 139 AC unbuffed in Sentinel in Power Attack and 152 unbuffed in Combat Expertise. I didn't try to max out AC else there are some modification you can do to get better results like using the +7 Undead Guard Planeforged Fullplate of Omniscience i got in bank or a good randomgen +7 Something Planeforged Tower Shield of Something ...

From what is my experience in epic elite even if you use AC boost +20 AC that tops me to 174 AC you barely mitigate 20-30% of damage. What improves really your survivability melee-wise in Epic Boss Tanking is just the PRR (as long as you close up 50% DR it's good), Incorporeal (10% from Epic Ring of the Stalker or Abbot Cloak or Maabar Cloak) and Cloudkill. After that you just need to learn to block and selfheal if things gets bad and keep up meantime the aggro of the boss while DPSesses still DPS him (that's ELoB case for example). For trash mobs use a lot of Displacement Clickies that's all. If you have Evasion or not it's a good idea as well to carry over an Epic Demonscale Armor and some 33% abs item for lightning and/or fire to mitigate elemental damage.

Except EEADQ2 and EELOB there's nothing ingame that is worth going Sentinel for tanking purpose. You can tank with Dreadnought, have less PRR, Dodge and AC and still survive, but meantime you're doing some damage as well.

[ReaperAlexEU]

sad but my fighter just prove you wrong, my fighter is 18 fighter/2 monk, his reflex saves is 51

plus my ac is 135 and i have 123 PRR, and also 22% dodge. my health is 1106

i think his point was you have to build for reflex to make a evasion splash worth taking. ie dont dump dex on an evasion splash because evasion wont kick in often enough. so you seem to be validating his point by clearly pushing above his recommended 45 reflex on your evasion splash.

[Viisari]

Fracking noobs.

Yeah you heard it here first, fighters are crappy tanks, rogues and monks are obviously better.

[ReaperAlexEU]

can i get some break downs on the AC and PRR people are hitting? i have a medium geared paly who has just over 100AC at the moment and i'm fairly sure below 100 PRR. would be nice to get a shopping list on how to push both towards the 150 mark.

i'd also be interested in a sword+board build for a paly tank (kopesh for tanking, 2-hander for dps). i'm working on junts self healing paly tank at the moment but the changes in shield feats are making me think its time to LR or TR as it didnt have any shield feats when it was fresh. at the moment he's a 1st life 32pt human, lvl22 or 23 with tier 3 destiny. i have conc-op and torc with a lot of cove gear as cheap epics (plate, shield, ring, all unslotted) and the paly set from amrath, also unslotted. i'm working on the purple knight set and have the healing amp gloves at the moment. UMD is no fail heal scroll with gear swaps (7-fingered gloves) and CSW is starting now my main healing though i'm missing a decent devotion item (both ring slots are used so i have to pull out a devotion stick for an extra boost).

he's been great in EN and EH with scaling on his side but there is a long way to go before i can tank EH with a party or feel confident trying EE.

[Zerkul]

can i get some break downs on the AC and PRR people are hitting? i have a medium geared paly who has just over 100AC at the moment and i'm fairly sure below 100 PRR. would be nice to get a shopping list on how to push both towards the 150 mark.

i'd also be interested in a sword+board build for a paly tank (kopesh for tanking, 2-hander for dps). i'm working on junts self healing paly tank at the moment but the changes in shield feats are making me think its time to LR or TR as it didnt have any shield feats when it was fresh. at the moment he's a 1st life 32pt human, lvl22 or 23 with tier 3 destiny. i have conc-op and torc with a lot of cove gear as cheap epics (plate, shield, ring, all unslotted) and the paly set from amrath, also unslotted. i'm working on the purple knight set and have the healing amp gloves at the moment. UMD is no fail heal scroll with gear swaps (7-fingered gloves) and CSW is starting now my main healing though i'm missing a decent devotion item (both ring slots are used so i have to pull out a devotion stick for an extra boost).

he's been great in EN and EH with scaling on his side but there is a long way to go before i can tank EH with a party or feel confident trying EE.

Giving you an exact breakdown of the AC and PRR would be quite long but at this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4680840#post4680840) link you can find my build guidelines and equipment (the gear list is below after some posts). You can figure it out by yourself by reading.

[DrDetroit]

Would a GS regenerating item keep these types of AC tanks up on EH?

Also, does healing amp augment the GS regeneration? IE 6 HPs restored per 15 seconds?

[Thrudh]

And no, just splashing two monk or rogue levels onto your fighter doesn't make you a reflex tank either, your reflex save will be too **** for that. If you can't pull off at least 45 reflex save then IMHO you don't make a tank.

You can get +12 stacking to your reflex save from twists (that also give you 3% dodge, +6 AC, +6 to MDB, and the ability to tumble through enemies).

A tank fighter with 2 rogue or 2 monk splash in light armor and a high Dodge score is very viable.

[Thrudh]

Drop AC and PRR a bit. Boost Dodge and your REF save and pick up Evasion. The sweet spot is a combination of all these factors. Going for AC and PRR alone is the gimpspot. The diminishing returns from getting, e.g., high AC numbers, make it foolish to go for high AC numbers. Get reasonably high AC, PRR, and Dodge. That's better than very high AC and PRR and low Dodge. Work in Evasion and a high REF save, and you'll be way better off still.

I agree with this.... Instead of maxing out AC, get a reasonable AC, and work more on PRR or Dodge... I prefer a high Dodge myself with light armor and evasion.

[Ape_Man]

From my experience so far ... you can solo everything in Epic Hard with 150+ AC and 140+ PRR. You take very little damage and only over an extended period of time. i.e 30 seconds to take 200 dmg (I have 1200ish HP)


You can solo everything on EH with 50 AC and 10 PRR.

130 AC, 21% dodge, 10% incorporeal, and perma-blur sees a lot of misses in Epic Elite.

[Ape_Man]

This is true, but I'm not sure AC even deserves a place in the equation right now.

it does work, it's just the point of diminishing returns is so much it doesn't work as well as it used to. 10 AC over the mobs to-hit is still a base 50% miss.

[Ape_Man]

As an example Tharmalos on EE has a tohit of about 110.

.


How did you determine that?

[TheMyrte]

How did you determine that?

Probably go in there with various AC. See you are being missed 1/20 (only on a 1) with AC < 55, and around 60 notice the bump up when he also start missing you on a 2 ?
I would be very happy with that number btw, I've heard ppl speculating about to hits of 200 in epic elite.

Ac breakdown. Quick and dirty. This is what Myrte approx has atm from memory:

10 Base
38 Armor (Spider Armor has AC 27 * 1,4 (stance))
40 Shield (Towershield +7 has AC 19 * 1,4 (stance) * 1,5 (US shield master))
10 dex (needs pastlife etc, most will have less)
7 Protection (new cloak of the bear)
6 Natural (random item)
3 Untyped (Knight set)
2 Untyped (Tod Fighter/paladin Set)
3 Stalwart Enhancement
4 Bullwark of Defence Epic feat
2 Rituals on shield and Armor
5 Insight (Omniscience)
10 Hardened US
5 Unbreackable US
6 Lithe Twist from Shadowmaster
3 Ship Buffs
1 Haste

Situational, from other players
6 Paladin Aura
2 Recitation
1 Air Guard Proc
3 Circle from magister/twist
2 Artificer +1 on armor/shield

Amounts to about 160+
Multiply by 1.1 for Combat Expertise and you get about 180 depending on your party.
For screenshot purposes you can include halflings friend and Armor action boosts etc. so yes I'll I'm sure 200+ is reachable. Maintainable will be hard(er). Also as ppl said the diff between 200 and 180 is quite small in damage taken/Avoided.

Myrte.

[Ape_Man]

Probably go in there with various AC. See you are being missed 1/20 (only on a 1) with AC < 55, and around 60 notice the bump up when he also start missing you on a 2 ?
I would be very happy with that number btw, I've heard ppl speculating about to hits of 200 in epic elite.
.

I'm one of those guys speculating EE bosses have +200 to-hit, but I'm probably wrong as I saw more than 5% misses against EE Lailat.

Dumb question . . . does your combat log actually show you a mob's to-hit roll?

[MrWizard]

I solo up to epic hard with my ac stalwart defender. He is level 23 and uses greensteel and raid items...no cannith or eveningstar stuff...same old build.
He runs it fine, although the casters in groups of three or 4 can make it a bit hazardous.

in group play he is fine too. AC is around 103 with boosts a bit higher, self buffed.
still using the hound shield too.. :)

epic elite takes a lot less damage than the old epic, but there are so many mobs it makes no difference, I take a ton of damage and have issues soloing any of that content where it is more than one or two on one...which is almost all of it.

one of these days I think I will try to respec him, but every major update gives so much newer equipment and makes the older obsolete it is impossible to keep up with it. (for me)

[maddmatt70]

One thing to think about is absorbtions. On my pure tank character (18 paladin 2 monk) I plan to have at least one twist almost always devoted to one absorbtion or another especially where there are no saves (e.g. divine punishment). Now that they fixed the light damage reduction in exalted angel combining that with the shield block enhancement in unyielding I hope to mitigate 60% of light damage and as a self healer to be able to keep myself without a healer on epic elite caught in the web for example. I also have hopes that they make spell resistance effective for the players so I can mitigate damage that way although it is unclear if that will happen.

The game constantly fluctuates in what it requires, but right now I am a big fan of for pure tank builds extremely high saves, evasion, 1k hp, 135ish prr, 20% dodge, 130 ac as parameters to shoot for. For builds that can tank, but are more about dps 135ish prr, 7-10% dodge, 1100+ hp.

[ReaperAlexEU]

I solo up to epic hard with my ac stalwart defender. He is level 23 and uses greensteel and raid items...no cannith or eveningstar stuff...same old build.
He runs it fine, although the casters in groups of three or 4 can make it a bit hazardous.

in group play he is fine too. AC is around 103 with boosts a bit higher, self buffed.
still using the hound shield too.. :)

epic elite takes a lot less damage than the old epic, but there are so many mobs it makes no difference, I take a ton of damage and have issues soloing any of that content where it is more than one or two on one...which is almost all of it.

one of these days I think I will try to respec him, but every major update gives so much newer equipment and makes the older obsolete it is impossible to keep up with it. (for me)

have you tried to run through the old amrath elite quests with your old build to see how the combat changes have affected things?

[ReaperAlexEU]

Giving you an exact breakdown of the AC and PRR would be quite long but at this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4680840#post4680840) link you can find my build guidelines and equipment (the gear list is below after some posts). You can figure it out by yourself by reading.

thanks, i'll do some number crunching when i'm home to see how that all plugs together :)

[Ape_Man]

have you tried to run through the old amrath elite quests with your old build to see how the combat changes have affected things?

I think Elite Amrath got nerfed, i swear it was tougher before U14. And it's not just that we're so much more powerful from 5 more level's and EDs.

It's not a valid test of anything anymore. EH Devil's Assault is the new "Elite Sins."

[ReaperAlexEU]

I think Elite Amrath got nerfed, i swear it was tougher before U14. And it's not just that we're so much more powerful from 5 more level's and EDs.

It's not a valid test of anything anymore. EH Devil's Assault is the new "Elite Sins."

not as a test of a builds capabilities, as a test on how the combat changes and ED's have changed the balance between us and the mobs.

i believe mr wiz has an old vid on youtube of his fighter soloing sins complete with benny hill music at points. if his build has hardly changed with regards to gear or respec then it would be interesting to see how much easier sins has got for that build.

i get the feeling life has got easier for my tank because EN solo is scaled down so far that its easier than a lvl19 quest. yet i still wonder if the combat changes have made life easier for tanks or not.

[heavenandhell]

So far, with geared people , decent caster I have yet to see a need for anyone to "tank" in epic hard. The real question is what it takes to tank in epic elite where you need it all -- ac, miss chance and prr.

If you think you need a tank in epic hard - get more dps.

[Therigar]

Thank you all for this thread. It provided a lot of good information.

[pasy007]

I would like that do you describe how do you arrive at your information, like that themythe

[pasy007]

Probably go in there with various AC. See you are being missed 1/20 (only on a 1) with AC < 55, and around 60 notice the bump up when he also start missing you on a 2 ?
I would be very happy with that number btw, I've heard ppl speculating about to hits of 200 in epic elite.

Ac breakdown. Quick and dirty. This is what Myrte approx has atm from memory:

10 Base
38 Armor (Spider Armor has AC 27 * 1,4 (stance))
40 Shield (Towershield +7 has AC 19 * 1,4 (stance) * 1,5 (US shield master))
10 dex (needs pastlife etc, most will have less)
7 Protection (new cloak of the bear)
6 Natural (random item)
3 Untyped (Knight set)
2 Untyped (Tod Fighter/paladin Set)
3 Stalwart Enhancement
4 Bullwark of Defence Epic feat
2 Rituals on shield and Armor
5 Insight (Omniscience)
10 Hardened US
5 Unbreackable US
6 Lithe Twist from Shadowmaster
3 Ship Buffs
1 Haste

Situational, from other players
6 Paladin Aura
2 Recitation
1 Air Guard Proc
3 Circle from magister/twist
2 Artificer +1 on armor/shield

Amounts to about 160+
Multiply by 1.1 for Combat Expertise and you get about 180 depending on your party.
For screenshot purposes you can include halflings friend and Armor action boosts etc. so yes I'll I'm sure 200+ is reachable. Maintainable will be hard(er). Also as ppl said the diff between 200 and 180 is quite small in damage taken/Avoided.

Myrte.

What is US
and what is this items 10 Hardened US, 5 Unbreackable US, 6 Lithe Twist from Shadowmaster and 3 Untyped (Knight set)

Pasy

[Tobril]

Dumb question . . . does your combat log actually show you a mob's to-hit roll?

Nope.

Doesn't really matter anyhow as monsters get the same
fuzzy to-hit that we do.


My take:

Get the the AC that is convenient but don't stress over it.

PRR and good saves are a must. Healers have to be able
to keep you up. If you swing between full and almost dead
too rapidly there is a high risk of failure.

Still have to hold aggro, intim is really helpful for the raids
that require a tank. (I would say mandatory, but highly skilled
players can work around not having it)

Evasion is a plus, but good saves and absorbtion can do the
job. Even with evasion 1's happen so evasion people need to
remain cognizant of that.

The real tanks today are the full-blown defenders.

Monks and druids have tanking options but I feel they are insufficient
especially considering the rampant proliferation of defenders in the
current environment.

[emptysands]

What is US
and what is this items 10 Hardened US, 5 Unbreackable US, 6 Lithe Twist from Shadowmaster and 3 Untyped (Knight set)

Pasy

http://ddowiki.com/page/Unyielding_Sentinel

[emptysands]

How did you determine that?

There is some data at the other place. Although trying each AC level to see when they start missing is also an option.

Note supposedly monster to-hits aren't scaled to a 20 dice/5% bins. I'm not exactly sure if they miss on a "1-5" out of 100.

[TheMyrte]

What is US
and what is this items 10 Hardened US, 5 Unbreackable US, 6 Lithe Twist from Shadowmaster and 3 Untyped (Knight set)

Pasy

sorry, I 've come so familiar with these things , I completely forgot my own despair when I first saw all the new abbreviations :)

US is the unyielding sentinel epic destiny.
There is a tier 5 ability called hardened, you can take it 3 times, giving 3, 6 or 10 points of untyped (stacking) AC
Unbreakable is an autogranted stance in that same destiny you get at level 2 and 5 giving among other things a stacking 5 natural AC bonus.
Lithe is from the shadowmaster, another epic destiny (you can twist up to 3 abilities from another destiny) giving 6 AC and 6 reflex as well as increasing your max dex bonus with light armor by 6. There are 3 tiers, 2 points per tear.
The Untyped 3 from the knight set is the set bonus for wearing 3 of the items of the purple dragon vendor. it give +3 to hit and damage and 3 AC.

Hope that's clearer. appologies for the confusion.

[Belsogno]

I am doing fine like this:

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4976/acbreakdown.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/acbreakdown.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

and still I was missing artificer and sigil buff ;-)

While tanking with my triple dragonmark E-chimera in sentinel stance, there is no way to pull aggro off me.
250% (500% cliccable) healing amplification do the rest

[Viisari]

While tanking with my triple dragonmark E-chimera in sentinel stance, there is no way to pull aggro off me.

:)

[Belsogno]

:)

well you can still intimidate the bad guy :P

[Viisari]

well you can still intimidate the bad guy :P

I know at least two people who could steal it without intim. They would be able to do it repeatedly too.

[squishwizzy]

I have said it earlier, and since you probably didn't get it, I'm saying it again in a different way, "all tanks are near to immortals but not all immortals are tanks". What I meant by this is what kind of tank you will become if you can't protect your fellow skinny wizzy in her beautiful red silk dress from getting chased by angry muscle men?

Well...uh...at least the tank's not taking damage.

So I see this as a big win overall...

[darthhento]

Wow, big numbers being thrown there.

Lets see.. my gimpmonk splash fighter tank has 1k HP in US, 55 PRR if I'm in Mountain+SD stance, 80 AC that I have no idea how I got that high since I dumped wisdom, ~40 saves and no intim. Yet somehow I can keep aggro and am easy to heal and have nice DPS. Oh, and I have some dodge. Not sure how much exactly but not too high I'm sure.

The point? I does what it's intended to do. It can be a main tank for raids or EE when needed.

OP, best thing for you is to test out a few things and see what's best for you. You don't need crazy numbers to be efficient.

[RTN]

I am doing fine like this:

and still I was missing artificer and sigil buff ;-)

While tanking with my triple dragonmark E-chimera in sentinel stance, there is no way to pull aggro off me.
250% (500% cliccable) healing amplification do the rest

Mind giving us a breakdown of equipment and build? Some of it is obvious from the screenshot, but not all.

[Tirisha]

I am doing fine like this:

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4976/acbreakdown.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/acbreakdown.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

and still I was missing artificer and sigil buff ;-)

While tanking with my triple dragonmark E-chimera in sentinel stance, there is no way to pull aggro off me.
250% (500% cliccable) healing amplification do the rest

How'd you get dodge bonus to AC?

[Zarquine]

Okay, let's summarize (not in order of importance, just what I can think of):

- Get your AC as high as possible...

- Get your PRR as high as possible...

- Get your Dodge as high as possible...

- Get your Saving Throws as high as possible...

- Have Blur...

- Have Ghostly...

- Have Displacement... (I am still not sure how Blur, Ghostly, Displacement and Dodge work together)

- Get Healing Amplification as high as possible...

- Get Intimidate as high as possible...

- Get Threat as high as possible...

- Get Damage Reduction as high as possible... (I am not sure if DR is of any real consequence, but every little bit helps)


Am I missing anything?

[Kaisoni]

- Have Displacement... (I am still not sure how Blur, Ghostly, Displacement and Dodge work together)

Blur and Displacement don't stack with each other (Displacement is used instead as it's higher - 20% vs 50%), all the rest you listed stack with everything else.

Although there are also few other ways to get incorporeal miss chance that don't stack with ghostly - Dark monk's shadow fade, Palemaster's Shroud of the Wraith and the Shadowdancer ED's Shadow Form - which all give 25% miss chance and overwrite ghostly's 10%.

Edit: They're also all rolled separately to see if they cause the attacker to miss. So if you had 50% concealment from displacement, and 50% dodge chance then they'll have a 50% chance to hit you, and if they succeed then they'll have to roll again for a separate 50% chance to hit you, which would make it a 75% chance to miss you rather than a 100% chance.