Turbine, aren't you running a bit too fast?

[thebeast1985]

I remember the old times when updates took ages to come, at least 2 months, if it was a little one, they where buggy? yes but not like this.

I know that only the (was it 5% or 10%) of the player base of this game use this forum tool you gave us, but have you really ever considere what WE really want?

I think you have someone to read all the forum (or at least a big part of it) so you are not completely unespecting this, but i may have a little suggestion for you.

Make a poll, an ingame poll and ask to all Players (all means all, not on the forum, not as a "can i have a minute of your time" but a simple check on a page before logging in (or after) game.

The question to me is this:

Do you prefer to have the game quality restored to old times (and with this we agree to the fact that there will not be an update every week BUT we will have higher quality less (i'm not a fool i know that's impossible to be bug free) funnyer and quest we can really enjoy)

OR

continue the way it's now.

THIS should give:
A) a choice to us to have what we really want and like (democracy rules of coursel, majority wins)
B) a complete vision of your player base target, giving you a better way to keep the greater player base.

[Nospheratus]

I believe the thing is, most players don't even notice most bugs, unless it prevents them from completing a quest, makes them lose an item, etc.

If a 3% doublestrike bonus from a destiny isn't applying properly, 95% of all those that use such an ability will never notice.

I believe that is why Turbine doesn't appear to give much priority to a lot of the bugs, because they aren't exactly game-breaking.

It's a "PR" thing. Fix only what most people can see...

[thebeast1985]

very sad to say but i think you are right, still i hope that us (the % of the playerbase that cares about this game really) will be heared and why not helped out to sort the game we like and we like to "fight" for?
Considering this is still a game so, i will fight for it but it's not a life or death situation :)

But maybe.. if a Dev could throw an eye on it... *crossfingers*

[Loriac]

My guess is that the increasing bugs are engine related and linked to the growth in complexity from new functionality. If this is true, it could be a lot of work for Turbine to fix things in an elegant way.

Ideally, you'd create an initial framework that could be easily expanded with new features as/when they were developed. However, no matter how good your starting point, things will tend to get more fragmented and complex over time. Bearing in mind that DDO has been live for over 6 years, and the initial designs probably are 8+ years old, its remarkable how well its coping. Particularly when you consider how core systems have been redesigned during that time (e.g. enhancements, the plethora of different bonus types, PREs, pets, shapechanging, epic destinies).

Ironically, content is probably far easier to develop now than it was in the past as the developers are familiar with the tools and have more experience of designing and implementing content.

So we end up where we are now: new content comes out more and more quickly, but bugs seem to grow with each new release of features (as opposed to just new quest content).

I would guess that Turbine design architects are already reviewing what their ideal framework would be given everything they know now (based not just on DDO but also on their other games). The real question is whether its possible (or even makes sense commercially) to transition existing games across to a next generation engine. My gut feeling is that its doubtful that would make much sense, so we're more likely to see DDO 2 than a full rebuild of the existing DDO platform.

However, having said all that, its still possible to continue to add layers onto the existing platform for a while. There will be new bugs, but provided Turbine can manage them on a triage basis, the experience for most users should be fine.

I think what happens is that we see a lot of griping from players on the forums, but if you never read them and just played the game in the way the majority of their players do, you wouldn't necessarily experience lots of lots of bugs all the time. Certainly the game feels quite stable to me now (especially compared to a few years ago), with the bugs that do crop up being inconvenient but not show-stopping. A classic example of this would be bugs with the new ED features; whilst its irritating if some of these don't work, the truth is that you can survive without the new features anyway so its not going to stop you playing.

[Ryiah]

The real question is whether its possible (or even makes sense commercially) to transition existing games across to a next generation engine. My gut feeling is that its doubtful that would make much sense, so we're more likely to see DDO 2 than a full rebuild of the existing DDO platform.

Another question to ask is, would it sell? I'm not even certain a second expansion for DDO will sell as well as the first expansion. The first expansion drew a lot of people largely because of Druid and Forgotten Realms. Turbine would have to introduce something fantastic to get even a second expansion to sell.



I think what happens is that we see a lot of griping from players on the forums, but if you never read them and just played the game in the way the majority of their players do, you wouldn't necessarily experience lots of lots of bugs all the time.

Sometimes I really do wonder how many people visit the forums. Turbine claims that only a small percentage of their player base "uses" the forums but that likely simply translates to "logs into the forums".

[Nospheratus]

What boggles my mind is, how can one quest difficulty on some(?) quests be bugged in an update that "simply" added a few quests, one challenge and fixed some unrelated bugs. I speak of this only as an example, but there are lots of other things that bug when apparently they aren't even touched on a certain patch or update.

Personaly I would say this is caused by one of two things:
1- For each update, Turbine just randomly picks a different version of each file, puts it together and builds it - voilá! Instant patch/update;
2- On each update, there are considerable reworks of the base framework in which the game is built upon.

Obviously, it's nr 2.


Another extremely annoying thing is, how can you post release notes saying something is fixed, when it is not?
Surelly every bug has a few steps for reproducing said bug. To validate it's correction there are two things that can be done, not exclusively, but complementing each other. One is, create a test for said code that replicates this bug and run it after the fix. The other is validating it in-game with the said steps to reproduce it.

When these two steps aren't enough, then there is something wrong about the whole thing. Something that is deeper and probably far more complicated to solve.


Regardless, it's still annyoing having all these bugs! And it's especially annoying when they break your character or make you lose difficult to acquire items, as with some recent cases of LRing or the past shared bank bug (I'm talking about losing ingredients bags)...


And they will never rebuild DDO. It's an illusion to think that "now we'll make it right". Especially because the original devs are probably not in the team anymore and it would be extemely hard for the current team to learn from the previous team's mistakes, in many things. So, the same mistakes would be made. Even with the original team, new mistakes would be made... That's how it is with such huge and complex systems...


In any case, and regardless of the many bugs, I think DDO is a pretty stable and up to date game. Never crashes on my machine, for example. Can't say that about all games...


So, for Turbine developers, keep working on this! I'm sure it's not easy having your work bashed like sometimes people do on these forums, but be assured it's appreciated by many people!

[gaffneyks]

They are not different from any software company. They have no incentive to fix the bugs, they do have a financial incentive to produce new content that they can market.

Also all MMOs have a shelf life, this one has to be getting near its after 7 years, I can see no logical reason for them to spend the money to fix the bugs, I can see a reason for them to try to churn as much money out of this as they can before it dies.

That is most likely what they are doing, which is fine, but some of the other **** like all the BTC stuff in the new content, taking away epics tokens, the challenge nerf. Those things I really wonder about as it just ****es people off and makes them move on to another game quicker.

oh well, It is just a game.

[thebeast1985]

They are not different from any software company. They have no incentive to fix the bugs, they do have a financial incentive to produce new content that they can market.

Also all MMOs have a shelf life, this one has to be getting near its after 7 years, I can see no logical reason for them to spend the money to fix the bugs, I can see a reason for them to try to churn as much money out of this as they can before it dies.

That is most likely what they are doing, which is fine, but some of the other **** like all the BTC stuff in the new content, taking away epics tokens, the challenge nerf. Those things I really wonder about as it just ****es people off and makes them move on to another game quicker.

oh well, It is just a game.

You are quite right, i see your point (and it's true that all games have a shelf life) but imo this game have a static player base that *should* stay till the server's up, i'll explain myself better making an example: Ultima Online, this game is quite the same for a reason: D&D. we Play this game not beacause of it's grafic, we play this game not for his game rules, but for the love we share for D&D (at least, as i told this is my point)

As you can see WoW has still the best player base ever (and will stay, the answer? why? they know what they player wants, they know that they want more challange, new contents, and that's what they give them) there is also another player base that plays it beacause it's Blizzard who made it, there are others that plays it beacause it's Warcraft setting, so.. to be clear, this game shoul be able to get some players for many more years to come, and i'm sure that Turbine does know this (we all know that there is a new game with NWN settings that is coming out but... have you seen it? and most of all.. it's cryptic, i played (and payed) for 2 of theyr games, trust me, i will NEVER do this mistake again.

So the main question for me is this: WHY?

[ddo.rsmo.pt]

So the main question for me is this: WHY?

I don't know that answer, but I know another which might help: 42.

Carry on.

[Maatogaeoth]

If they can't afford to pay folks to fix things and not get paid for it, they should join the crowd of people with a Kickstarter and fund the fixes already. :p

[Ausdoerrt]

(we all know that there is a new game with NWN settings that is coming out but... have you seen it? and most of all.. it's cryptic, i played (and payed) for 2 of theyr games, trust me, i will NEVER do this mistake again.

Off-topic but yes, I've seen it, it looks absolutely amazing, the devs really nailed the lore and the atmosphere, and it will likely have twice the content of DDO in the first few months thanks to user-made quests. PWE/Cryptic combo is rather iffy, but from what I've seen about the game in the recent weeks, it's worth any DnD fan's attention.


So the main question for me is this: WHY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcYlytyuKsc

[sebastianosmith]

I would guess that Turbine design architects are already reviewing what their ideal framework would be given everything they know now (based not just on DDO but also on their other games).

Have you ever met a coder who didn't want to rewrite everything from the ground up after reviewing an existing code base? ;)

[Nospheratus]

Off-topic but yes, I've seen it, it looks absolutely amazing, the devs really nailed the lore and the atmosphere, and it will likely have twice the content of DDO in the first few months thanks to user-made quests. PWE/Cryptic combo is rather iffy, but from what I've seen about the game in the recent weeks, it's worth any DnD fan's attention.

Thing is, the game looks like an asian MMO, absolutely nothing else. That doesn't deserve even a trial, for me.

About having twice the content of DDO, I don't believe that. I bet they have HUGE areas to go from 1 kill-N-rats-and-bring-tails quest to another. The gameplay itself looks really cheap, in the same way Dragon Age 2 was to the original Dragon Age - a waste of space/time!...

That MMO will be extremely low quality compared to DDO.

[Galeria]

The devs feel that the whiners come to the forums, while everyone else is happy playing the game so they discount the posts here as "noise."

[Spoonwelder]

I play the game about 5-6 hours a day and 99% of the bugs i don't even notice. I play all ranges of the game so it's not that i am not seeing any specific content.

If I had been hit by the exclusive bug (I was told about it early in the day yesterday) then I would be ****ed today but other than that there isn't alot in game that as another poster said is game breaking.

Irritating at times yes....but nothing that would stop me playing......(note I don't play my monk much anymore which could be saving me alot of trouble).

I also don't jump into new content right away (just like I rarely buy any software until the first patch is out). I am not the bleeding edge (which by definition is a small percent of the population) and I am okay with that. I thank those of you out on the edge for finding the problems and bringing them to light - but we can all tone down the doom threads a tonne ok.

[Doomcrew]

I remember the old times when updates took ages to come, at least 2 months.

....... 2 months? ....... ages?

thats funny .....

[Captain_Wizbang]

....... 2 months? ....... ages?

thats funny .....


http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr40/chainmail/th_23_11_591.gif (http://s467.photobucket.com/albums/rr40/chainmail/?action=view&current=23_11_591.gif)

How about 1.5 years!!!! :eek:

[Ausdoerrt]

Thing is, the game looks like an asian MMO, absolutely nothing else. That doesn't deserve even a trial, for me.

About having twice the content of DDO, I don't believe that. I bet they have HUGE areas to go from 1 kill-N-rats-and-bring-tails quest to another. The gameplay itself looks really cheap, in the same way Dragon Age 2 was to the original Dragon Age - a waste of space/time!...

That MMO will be extremely low quality compared to DDO.

Well, it's not DDO2, that much is clear. The rest of your post looks like an uninformed, emotional response to a potential DDO competitor. But, I'm not going to advertize that competitor on the forums here, since that's just bad form. If you do care to learn more, feel free to PM me for more info.


To keep this on-topic, yes I do think the content is being constantly rushed lately, though I can't tell if it's actually "running too fast" as the OP claims, or it's just the poor technical performance of recent releases that creates that impression.

[thebeast1985]

I play the game about 5-6 hours a day and 99% of the bugs i don't even notice. I play all ranges of the game so it's not that i am not seeing any specific content.

If I had been hit by the exclusive bug (I was told about it early in the day yesterday) then I would be ****ed today but other than that there isn't alot in game that as another poster said is game breaking.

Irritating at times yes....but nothing that would stop me playing......(note I don't play my monk much anymore which could be saving me alot of trouble).

I also don't jump into new content right away (just like I rarely buy any software until the first patch is out). I am not the bleeding edge (which by definition is a small percent of the population) and I am okay with that. I thank those of you out on the edge for finding the problems and bringing them to light - but we can all tone down the doom threads a tonne ok.

i play a lot too, trust me, and i understand what you mean... but why letting out something bugged when you have players eager to play a test server (as far as i know not many games have a good test server as we do) i think it would not be a great effort to wait a week or 2 instead of jumping out an relasing.

Just to be clear, i've run 3 new quests and... no bugs at all (i ran 1 with my irl friend, it's a barb, and we get the quest bugged)

the annoyng part (for me) are:
hirelings that act VERY STUPIDLY lately.
Some bugs on EDs (like the autodebuff -5 fort with magister)
Exp and Drop rate on Challanges (it's not a bug but endeed it's annoyng)

that's all, and as you told,
this bugs won't stop me from playng this game that i still like, a lot.

[Purkilius]

Exp and Drop rate on Challanges (it's not a bug but endeed it's annoyng)


This ^^

[Nospheratus]

Well, it's not DDO2, that much is clear. The rest of your post looks like an uninformed, emotional response to a potential DDO competitor. But, I'm not going to advertize that competitor on the forums here, since that's just bad form. If you do care to learn more, feel free to PM me for more info.


To keep this on-topic, yes I do think the content is being constantly rushed lately, though I can't tell if it's actually "running too fast" as the OP claims, or it's just the poor technical performance of recent releases that creates that impression.

Well, it may be emotional, but it's not uninformed since I talked about it's looks, and I'v seen it...
Also, about the kill-N-rats-bring-tails kind of quest, that's exactly the demonstration that was made. IIRC the words of the developer were along the lines: "kill stuff, steal their loot". I'm sure that phrase could be placed on DDO as well, but wrongly because all quests in DDO have a storyline.

Competitor? Maybe in some way, but whoever leaves DDO for that game is surely the population I don't have much in common anyway, so, nothing lost there - for me. And besides, they will come back! :p

I would post the link of the video I saw, but I can't atm. If I can be bothered, I'll do that when I get home.

[thebeast1985]

Well, it's not DDO2, that much is clear. The rest of your post looks like an uninformed, emotional response to a potential DDO competitor. But, I'm not going to advertize that competitor on the forums here, since that's just bad form. If you do care to learn more, feel free to PM me for more info.


To keep this on-topic, yes I do think the content is being constantly rushed lately, though I can't tell if it's actually "running too fast" as the OP claims, or it's just the poor technical performance of recent releases that creates that impression.

well my intention on the "running too fast" was to get the attention and with this i think i got it, so forgive me if i used a strong term :) and mostly it was a question :P

anyway i'll jump for a second off the topic i started to say something about the "competitor" i'm not well informed i watched 2 videos and 1 gamestyle video, i have to admit, grafic rocks but what else? i'm scared of the same old WoW-style game (the famous kill 100000 rats and get heads, wich the head drop is something like 15%).
For this playstyle we got explorers, in my opinion the point of strenght of this game is:
the other games i have played are like: "farm your experience then go on the istance and farm your items"
DDo got it all in one, you exp in dungeons, you exp in quests, you get your gear in quest.
that's why i think that DDO is different and yes, better than other games.

[Thrudh]

The devs feel that the whiners come to the forums, while everyone else is happy playing the game so they discount the posts here as "noise."

If true, many of the posters here have no one to blame but themselves.

I know after reading a thousand posts saying that the game is "unplayable" and 50% broken, I'd probably start discounting the forums as well. The noise-to-signal ratio is very high here.

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

[Turtlsdown]

If true, many of the posters here have no one to blame but themselves.

I know after reading a thousand posts saying that the game is "unplayable" and 50% broken, I'd probably start discounting the forums as well. The noise-to-signal ratio is very high here.

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

Out of curiosity, are you in this 10?

[thebeast1985]

If true, many of the posters here have no one to blame but themselves.

I know after reading a thousand posts saying that the game is "unplayable" and 50% broken, I'd probably start discounting the forums as well. The noise-to-signal ratio is very high here.

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

My intention with this post was to draw attention, and mostly give a possible solution, an advice to the devs, even if i know that the right place for this is "suggestions & ideas" but i think that this was the best place for this kind of think.
And if you feel that this is a real problem and you care like i do, why don't you tell what could be your solution or what's your idea, i think that this won't hurt at all, so feel free to say what you think.


I also think that this is not a whining post is it? if so we can avoid but i've been very very very surprised that there are really few person on this post that trolled so.. i think this could be one of the most constructive threads i've started

[Captain_Wizbang]

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

And of course you would be one of those ten!!??? :eek:

*thinking cap goes on.... "Golfer shoots 72"

[GrampaBill]

How is it you haven't considered that U14 and U15 -had- to be rushed into production? At the beginning of the year, Turbine knew that there would be a lot of new and shiny things introduced this year. So, they set the timeline for U14 and U15 to beat one of the more promising of the new and shiny things - GW2.

That said, the stated timeline for U16 is November. That's 3 months. I also wouldn't be too surprised if that date slips. I have a feeling that now that U15's out, they're not going to push things so drastically due to the scorching they've had to endure over the last two updates. Unless, of course, NWO is scheduled to be released around that date.

[Thrudh]

Out of curiosity, are you in this 10?

Nope... I like to set the record straight by calling out exaggerations, and I've given a few good suggestions over the years, but there are others who make a habit of well-thought posts with problems and suggestions to fix them.

[In_Like_Flynn]

... I know after reading a thousand posts saying that the game is "unplayable" and 50% broken, I'd probably start discounting the forums as well. The noise-to-signal ratio is very high here.

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.This. Definitely this.

[Gawna]

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor...

I would LOVE to hear your list of 10 people. Let me guess, you and Chai are 1 and 2?

[stainer]

I would LOVE to hear your list of 10 people.

You are in my top 10.

[Chai]

I remember the old times when updates took ages to come, at least 2 months, if it was a little one, they where buggy? yes but not like this.

In the past alot of players complained that content did not get delivered quickly enough. In 2008 for instance, shroud was end game. We got reavers refuge, which was a complete joke lottery system. Shroud was still endgame until mid 2009 when the first epics were released, which were so tough only the top 10% of all players played in them. Shroud was STILL the endgame for the other 90%. until much later than that.

People complained up a storm about not receiving content fast enough, the game getting boring etc. Now Turbine delivers content more quickly, complete with moar issues. Your OP brings up a valid point. We cant have our cake and eat it too, so which does the custoemer base prefer?

The other point I'll make is...video game (software) development is not a democratic process. Sure if a ton of people vote one way in the poll that might influence their decisionmaking or at least make them take a look into it, but it doesnt mean they are going to change one iota of how they do things, which is likely handed down from tha WB in the first place.

[Elaril]

If true, many of the posters here have no one to blame but themselves.

I know after reading a thousand posts saying that the game is "unplayable" and 50% broken, I'd probably start discounting the forums as well. The noise-to-signal ratio is very high here.

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

LoL

So let's hear yout ten then. This ought to be rich.

[Elaril]

In the past alot of players complained that content did not get delivered quickly enough. In 2008 for instance, shroud was end game. We got reavers refuge, which was a complete joke lottery system. Shroud was still endgame until mid 2009 when the first epics were released, which were so tough only the top 10% of all players played in them. Shroud was STILL the endgame for the other 90%. until much later than that.

People complained up a storm about not receiving content fast enough, the game getting boring etc. Now Turbine delivers content more quickly, complete with moar issues. Your OP brings up a valid point. We cant have our cake and eat it too, so which does the custoemer base prefer?


So are you saying that neither of these are legitimate complaints?

[Kylstrem]

In the past alot of players complained that content did not get delivered quickly enough. In 2008 for instance, shroud was end game. We got reavers refuge, which was a complete joke lottery system. Shroud was still endgame until mid 2009 when the first epics were released, which were so tough only the top 10% of all players played in them. Shroud was STILL the endgame for the other 90%. until much later than that.

People complained up a storm about not receiving content fast enough, the game getting boring etc. Now Turbine delivers content more quickly, complete with moar issues. Your OP brings up a valid point. We cant have our cake and eat it too, so which does the custoemer base prefer?




Ahh... so we take too extremes and use the "eat/have/cake" moral on it.

1) Have you forgotten how long it was between updates back then... have you forgotten the almost 1.5 years with no new content while they worked out the F2P stuff?!?!

2) Then we go to the other extreme where they are releasing content so fast they can't handle the development schedule and introduce many new bugs, and break things they fixed several times before.

I would say that this is not a wanting to eat our cake and have it, too.

we don't want 9 to 18 months between content. We want it more often than that, but if people are reporting "quest breaking" bugs on Lammania as most of the ones were for MotU were and most of the ones for this last update were.

Seriously. Quest breaking bugs released into a live environment when they were known.
Developer place-holder text all over the place, e.g. DNT TBD. Old quests broken that worked in the previous release.

I know many of you love to be apologists for Turbine, but their last two major releases, including a major paid for expansion have been released in a very early beta stage. You shouldn't accept that when you are paying for it, no matter how much you love the game.

You can still love the game. You can probably work past the bugs and have fun. But don't tell Turbine "Hey, Turbine... don't listen to the these people who expect to get a working product they are paying for. They apparently just have unrealistic standards. Heck, they probably return physical items to a store if they buy it and then find out it is broken when they get home. Sheesh... you'll never be able to please people like that!!"

[Chai]

So are you saying that neither of these are legitimate complaints?

Im saying they are contradictory complaints, especially when made by the same people.

Making people vote a certain way takes their ability to complain away when they win, and then they still see the same issues they saw when complaining the first time. For instance if the majority (along with the loud complainers) voted to take more time to release less buggy updates, the complainers just had their right to complain about how content doesnt get released fast enough revoked.

[Chai]

Ahh... so we take too extremes and use the "eat/have/cake" moral on it.

1) Have you forgotten how long it was between updates back then... have you forgotten the almost 1.5 years with no new content while they worked out the F2P stuff?!?!

I just outlined that it was that long in my post.


2) Then we go to the other extreme where they are releasing content so fast they can't handle the development schedule and introduce many new bugs, and break things they fixed several times before.

Its not a matter of extremes, its a matter of degree. The less time they take, the more issues there are likely to be.


2) Then we go to the other extreme where they are releasing content so fast they can't I would say that this is not a wanting to eat our cake and have it, too.

It is a literal example about how the same people complain about both situations, which is a perfect example of wanting to have their cake and eat it too.


we don't want 9 to 18 months between content. We want it more often than that, but if people are reporting "quest breaking" bugs on Lammania as most of the ones were for MotU were and most of the ones for this last update were.

The question becomes: Wheres the happy medium where the complainers stop complaining?


Seriously. Quest breaking bugs released into a live environment when they were known.
Developer place-holder text all over the place, e.g. DNT TBD. Old quests broken that worked in the previous release.

I know many of you love to be apologists for Turbine, but their last two major releases, including a major paid for expansion have been released in a very early beta stage. You shouldn't accept that when you are paying for it, no matter how much you love the game.

You should read a few of my posts in some recent threads before you start slapping the appologist label on me. I see this type of name calling all the time as a well rehearsed response directed at people who dont agree with those who complain about every single update. You are incorrect in that regard to be so quick to slap that label on someone, and its even more hilarious that when I dont support something Turbine did, its the same people who label myself the Turbine appologist who are supporting Turbine on that issue, which has happened in two recent threads now. Appologist? No. Realist, yes. I understand the reality of software development, and that reality is you cant expect fast updates with no issues. When Turbine took longer to put those updates out, people complained. When Turbine put out fast updates. THE SAME PEOPLE complained. The continue to do so each update in a predictable pattern based fashion.


You can still love the game. You can probably work past the bugs and have fun. But don't tell Turbine "Hey, Turbine... don't listen to the these people who expect to get a working product they are paying for. They apparently just have unrealistic standards. Heck, they probably return physical items to a store if they buy it and then find out it is broken when they get home. Sheesh... you'll never be able to please people like that!!"

Hey Turbine, dont listen to the people who expect fast updates with absolutely no issues whatsoever, as these two things are a direct contradiction to eachother. They need to understand that in software development if releases are rushed thre will be more issues, and that putting out updates with less issues requires more time. When its the same people who complain about BOTH too much time between updates AND too many issues in each new release, they have unrealistic standards.

[Gremmlynn]

I remember the old times when updates took ages to come, at least 2 months, if it was a little one, they where buggy? yes but not like this.

They have moved, at least partially but more and more it seems, to a system where new content is their product and the game is just there to give customers a reason to buy that product. The faster they turn out product, the faster they can sell it.

[Hokiewa]

Hilarious

[Kylstrem]

Hey Turbine, dont listen to the people who expect fast updates with absolutely no issues whatsoever, as these two things are a direct contradiction to eachother. They need to understand that in software development if releases are rushed thre will be more issues, and that putting out updates with less issues requires more time. When its the same people who complain about BOTH too much time between updates AND too many issues in each new release, they have unrealistic standards.

You keep missing the point I made about the two extremes.

You seem to think that the people who complained about waiting 18 months for new content are desiring new content every 2 months.

That strawman that you keep using to show you are right is just a silly argument.

18 months between content was outrageous.
The last two releases with the amount of bugs in them was outrageous.

Both are legitimate complaints and there is no hypocrisy or contradiction in the same person complaining about both issues.

[Elaril]

You keep missing the point I made about the two extremes.

You seem to think that the people who complained about waiting 18 months for new content are desiring new content every 2 months.

That strawman that you keep using to show you are right is just a silly argument.

18 months between content was outrageous.
The last two releases with the amount of bugs in them was outrageous.

Both are legitimate complaints and there is no hypocrisy or contradiction in the same person complaining about both issues.

He's offering a false dichotomy, which is always ridiculously humorous in my opinion.

There is the option of updates being released within a reasonable time frame with a reasonably low amount of bugs.

[DarkForte]

You keep missing the point I made about the two extremes.

You seem to think that the people who complained about waiting 18 months for new content are desiring new content every 2 months.

That strawman that you keep using to show you are right is just a silly argument.

18 months between content was outrageous.
The last two releases with the amount of bugs in them was outrageous.

Both are legitimate complaints and there is no hypocrisy or contradiction in the same person complaining about both issues.

Chai, strawmanning? Inconceivable! 18 months for new content is ludicrous. However, I wouldn't mind getting new content every 4-5 months if it were less bug-ridden than what we got in u15 (less than 2 months after u14). u14 was bad with respect to bugs (warforged heal amp, I'm looking at you!), but at least most of the quests were completable (except the raid, which introduced a lot of new mechanics, so it's almost kind of understandable).

[Postumus]

What boggles my mind is, how can one quest difficulty on some(?) quests be bugged in an update that "simply" added a few quests, one challenge and fixed some unrelated bugs. I speak of this only as an example, but there are lots of other things that bug when apparently they aren't even touched on a certain patch or update.


Because every update and every patch they ALWAYS touch/tweak/tickle other stuff that isn't mentioned in the release notes.

There is probably a backlog of fixes, tweaks, etc that sit in a queue until the next update/patch when they get implemented. This seems to be typical when hardware systems are updated.

They've admitted to making these types of changes, at the last minute without review on Lam, several times after the change had unintended effects to players.

[Postumus]

He's offering a false dichotomy, which is always ridiculously humorous in my opinion.



Some would use the term 'hilarious.'

[Postumus]

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

Simply identifying the bugs should be enough.

Professionals are able to filter out all the doom and gloom rage and focus on the issue... which I think Turbine does to an extent.

[Chai]

You keep missing the point I made about the two extremes.

I am missing no point whatsoever. I nailed the refutation on the head, lock, stock, and two smoking barrels.


You seem to think that the people who complained about waiting 18 months for new content are desiring new content every 2 months..

Um, no.

Those people did not wait for 18 months to complain. They began complaining before 6 months. This was because Turbine delivered ALOT of content before in much shorter time frames. Game release was cap 10 with only tempest spine as a raid. Between april 2006 and november 2007 Turbine released the VON raid, Titan raid, DQ raid, Reaver raid, Abbot raid, Hound raid, VOD raid, Shroud raid. They released all the flagging material to go with those raids as well. Roughly 1.7 years of time for all this content.

Then for 6 months, nothing. The complaints started to roll in. 12 months - We got reavers refuge. More complaints. 18 months. More complaints. Then finally the free to play model was released with TOD, amrath, and some old world quests becomming epic.

So no one waited 18 months for new content and THEN complained. It was more like 6 months. We were conditioned to receiving fast updates and people complaining about bugs. Then when it took a long time to release content, peopel complained about the length of time, but it was not 18 months before the complaints began, I assure you.


That strawman that you keep using to show you are right is just a silly argument.

The strawman accusation is a well rehearsed response made by people whose point has been handedly refuted and cannot respond back in a way that counters my point.


18 months between content was outrageous..

Again, its was not 18 months without content. It was 18 months with one update after being conditioned to much faster updates. No one waited 18 months to begin complaining up a storm about it. It was more like 6 months.


The last two releases with the amount of bugs in them was outrageous.

And the SAME PEOPLE who complain it takes too long to release content, complain about buggy content during fast update releases.


Both are legitimate complaints and there is no hypocrisy or contradiction in the same person complaining about both issues.

There is hypocracy when its THE SAME PEOPLE complaining about how its too long to release content, and when the release happens, its too buggy. Those two complaints are in direct contradiction to eachother in the world of software development.

Yes, it is hypocritical to complain about two contradictory factors especially when they are inversely proportionately related to eachother. The complainers realize that if they take one solid stance on the issue instead of waffling between two contradictory stances, they will invalidate all complaints when Turbine does what they want. There is an upside and a downside to each scenario. They choose to complain about the downsides of both.

1. More time per update - less issues.
2. Less time per update - more issues.

If a forumite with a history of complaining about every update takes stance 1 publicly, and then Turbine starts taking more time to develope content, they just invalidated their ability to continue to complain about the length of time. What they would rather do, and have done, is complain about the downsides of both, and when people aware of how software development works point out how that this is a direct contradiction, hilarity ensues, accusations of straw man argumentation and being a Turbine appologist are made, whoely due to the fact that theres nothing you can present to me that will show that this kind of complaining about BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE by THE SAME PEOPLE is somehow not hypocritical.

Its even MORE hilarious when people complain about both sides of the issue, have been doing so for years, and their next action is to tab back into DDO and continue playing. It gets even better when over the years, they have been talking about how this game is going to lose players if Turbine doesnt do exactly what they are asking, they have made this claim several times over the years, and despite the fact that this hasnt happened, they continue to make this claim over and over again. While typing this i am reading a thread from 2007 that has some of the same people who still loudly complain today, making this same claim. Not only does this mass exodus never occur, the very people who make those complaints repeatedly are still here doing so today. No one else left over what they were harping about - and they didnt either.

[Ausdoerrt]

The strawman accusation is a well rehearsed response made by people whose point has been handedly refuted and cannot respond back in a way that counters my point.

Alternatively, it's a natural response by people who don't want to bother with a provocative statement because the argument is getting too silly! (cue the Pythonian foot)

Are you ever going to delete that erroneous quote from your sig? *nudge nudge*

[SardaofChaos]

Alright, everyone out, thread's over, nothing more to see here, move along, the train has left the station, an argument has been won because the other side can do nothing more than post youtube videos, chop chop, we're done here.

[Elaril]

Alright, everyone out, thread's over, nothing more to see here, move along, the train has left the station, an argument has been won because the other side can do nothing more than post youtube videos, chop chop, we're done here.

I answer repetetive, cliche arguments with what I view as humor. You seem to do so with self-righteous attempts at being funny as well. This thread was finished a while ago by the way.

[Ausdoerrt]

Also, about the kill-N-rats-bring-tails kind of quest, that's exactly the demonstration that was made. IIRC the words of the developer were along the lines: "kill stuff, steal their loot". I'm sure that phrase could be placed on DDO as well, but wrongly because all quests in DDO have a storyline.

Well, tbh I doubt that they would make a focus on "kill x of y" quests. Even if they do (God help them not to), people will likely just ignore them and make better quests themselves, with storylines and whatnot. Heck, we might even see some favourite DDO quests reproduced in Neverwinter! The benefits of having a functional toolset integrated in your MMO. They even said that they're hoping to get it working not just for instanced dungeons, but also public instances and maybe even modifications to general public space.


Competitor? Maybe in some way, but whoever leaves DDO for that game is surely the population I don't have much in common anyway, so, nothing lost there - for me. And besides, they will come back! :p


Well, I did say "potential competitor". It would be reasonable to assume that WotC wants both games alive and well, seeing how they have a stake in both. It's not DDO2, and DDO powergamers will have no interest in it. The little things like character backgrounds, possibly rituals, etc. will probably be very enticing for the more setting-involved types.

P.S. Would the above posters please ignore this post, it's intended for the OP and the quoted person, everyone else feel free to troll on, this post's only intent is to carry on an earlier conversation that has no relation to what's going on in the thread atm.

[Moonsickle]

here's a simple choice...


1) do you want quality new content that may take awhile to produce & thoroughly test?


or

2)do you want rushed content, maybe tested but not concerned whether it was working or not [and if were told it was broken stayed that way], then for good measure some nerfs & tweaked whether warranted or not?



well guess what...


you don't have a choice...


you got #2 ...

and remember this is THEIR game not yours... so you're going to like it...



and if you don't, that brings us to the next question and not so simple choice...


1) do I stay?

or

2) do I go?




unfortunately people have invested time & $$$ into this game... which emotions are now attached to
... so most will ride it out in hopes that somehow it gets better


but if every time another company is going to break out a fresh cake, we're going get a slice of moldy, stale, bug-ridden 6 year old cake
that is to suppose to make us content... till the urge for fresh cake subsides


not going to be long before #2 will be the answer to both choices... if current trends continue



.

[Aurora1979]

Yea, as has been stated, Turbine have started going for quantaty over quality.

We only have ourselves to blame. Frequently threads go up asking which would you prefer.... there's always lots of people on there saying they want more content and don't care about the bugs.

Maybe the devs listened to them, I don't think so though. I think its another case of turbine doing whatever they choose to without listening to either side of the discussion.

Besides, content makes money, bug fixes don't.... according to the accounts department. *Rolly eye smiley*

Finally, I can't multi quote Chai but I want to tell you that your 4 1/2 inch brush dripping with tar is aimed at the wrong targets.

I DO complain about the bugs, I have NEVER complained about slow release. You may well be right about some people trying to play for both teams but you are wrong to imply that everyone involved in the discussion does.

I am firmly in the camp of DO A PROPER JOB TURBINE!!!!

I appreciate a flawless product is too much to expect but seriously. I'm from a mechanical background more then electronic and all I can associate it too is cars really. A car manufacture might sell a new car with some flaws but there is always a point that, if things get bad enough, the manufacture will stop production, do a product recall and FIX IT before letting more people use it.

I'm not suggesting you do that for every tiny bug but..... Actually, different question but genuine one if anyone more techy then me can tell me...

Talking hypothetically, is there a point where updates, each with a few small bugs, can build up and make the software non functional..... You know, like, eventually you get 2 bugs that really conflict with each other.....

I'm just wondering, If we say that a release will always have some bugs in it, at what point do all those bugs accumulate into such a mess the program wont run and debugging becomes neigh impossible.

Turbine SEEM to be adding more bugs then they are clearing at the moment... is there any point where it becomes....critical mass?

If so.... at some point are tubs going to have to say "right no more updates till we get X% of these bugs sorted and the game cleaned up a bit"...... or they keep adding bugs till the game grinds to a stop.....

[Synsuous]

I am a new player. So far, I am finding there is *way* more content than I need at this point in time. I am skipping quests that I am over level for because there are plenty of other quests, so why take an XP penalty? Maybe when/if I ever TR a few times, I will run out of new things to do.

Until then, I say fix the **** bugs! I work in SQA. I have seen plenty of products go out with bugs that should never have shipped and conversely, I have worked at companies that listened when SQA said , "Don't ship this yet". Guess which company had happier customers? Guess which company had happier SQA engineers and devs?

Turbine, don't think that if you ship a shoddy product that it won't impact the morale your SQA and Devs. It will. And some of them will get fed up and leave. And once enough people leave, more people start looking for new jobs.

[Belwaar]

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

You, sure as hell, wouldn't be one of 'em because the above statement applies to exactly 0 of your responses. :eek::D:eek:

[SardaofChaos]

You, sure as hell, wouldn't be one of 'em because the above statement applies to exactly 0 of your responses. :eek::D:eek:

You wouldn't either, because you and roughly 7 other posters felt it necessary to assume he included himself in those 10, even after he stated he did not.

[Deathdefy]

If true, many of the posters here have no one to blame but themselves.

I know after reading a thousand posts saying that the game is "unplayable" and 50% broken, I'd probably start discounting the forums as well. The noise-to-signal ratio is very high here.

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things..

You view the forums' role very differently to myself.

That the forums should make - to paraphrase - "Posts that purport to solve a problem with suggestions the devs can implement" is a big hurdle to leap in order to be a respectable community member.

I consider game direction / suggestions to be more in the wheel-house of Mournlands or the Feedback threads that pop up from time-to-time than the forums generally.

I consider the forums' role, apart from as a community resource and dispenser of quality drama, to be a parallel final tier of QA along with in-game Bug Reporting. I.e. If the Devs see a few dozen or hundred posts about something being broken, they should try and fix it in a hotfix or next patch depending on its importance and their own constraints.

Given your very different viewpoint on the role of the forums, I suppose I can see why you wouldn't value 99.9% of its members.

[thebeast1985]

here's a simple choice...


1) do you want quality new content that may take awhile to produce & thoroughly test?


or

2)do you want rushed content, maybe tested but not concerned whether it was working or not [and if were told it was broken stayed that way], then for good measure some nerfs & tweaked whether warranted or not?



well guess what...


you don't have a choice...


you got #2 ...

and remember this is THEIR game not yours... so you're going to like it...



and if you don't, that brings us to the next question and not so simple choice...


1) do I stay?

or

2) do I go?




unfortunately people have invested time & $$$ into this game... which emotions are now attached to
... so most will ride it out in hopes that somehow it gets better


but if every time another company is going to break out a fresh cake, we're going get a slice of moldy, stale, bug-ridden 6 year old cake
that is to suppose to make us content... till the urge for fresh cake subsides


not going to be long before #2 will be the answer to both choices... if current trends continue



.

You are quite correct, it's their game, not mine, true, but it's my money not their untill i want to pay.
As you stated I can choose to NOT play this game, bad luck is the one i like.
Still mine was just a suggestion, anyway you got the point and btw mine was a possible solution and\or a suggestion :)

As i told in a previous post, we are all "fighting" for this game beacause we care, but you told another bitter truth, it will not last forever if they continue this way, unless there are more peolple that still don't care.
(we have to remember that the forum is used only by the 10% of the population)
But they should remember (and sure they check the stats, so they do remember that) that many don't act as we do that we post "i'll leave if.. i'll stop playng if..." they just cancel their sub and stop playng the game... and that's the 90% of the population that doesen't crawl in the forum.

[Dysmetria]

The question to me is this:

Do you prefer to have the game quality restored to old times (and with this we agree to the fact that there will not be an update every week BUT we will have higher quality less (i'm not a fool i know that's impossible to be bug free) funnyer and quest we can really enjoy)

OR

continue the way it's now.As noted in many of the numerous variations of this tired thread topic, the team that fixes bugs is not the same as the team that designs new content. Having the latter stop working will do absolutely nothing to speed up the former.

[thebeast1985]

How is it you haven't considered that U14 and U15 -had- to be rushed into production? At the beginning of the year, Turbine knew that there would be a lot of new and shiny things introduced this year. So, they set the timeline for U14 and U15 to beat one of the more promising of the new and shiny things - GW2.

That said, the stated timeline for U16 is November. That's 3 months. I also wouldn't be too surprised if that date slips. I have a feeling that now that U15's out, they're not going to push things so drastically due to the scorching they've had to endure over the last two updates. Unless, of course, NWO is scheduled to be released around that date.

You know what? you are right, i haven't considered this possibility, well, you give me hope, at least, this is a good point of view to look at the facts :)

They could be rushing for this, even if i think this should not be needed, this game has another target, or at least HAD another target, this game was less hardcore based and more "casual player" friendly (we all know that DDo rules are not easy for a person that never played D&D, i found A LOT of problems tryng to explain how to build a character at some friends of mine)

[thebeast1985]

As noted in many of the numerous variations of this tired thread topic, the team that fixes bugs is not the same as the team that designs new content. Having the latter stop working will do absolutely nothing to speed up the former.

Ok but what i was tryng to say is this: do make new content, i don't want a static game, but at least take your time to release a good (or decent) product, all this rushing in changing exp from challanges (in some, particular cases it's correct on many other it wasn't needed)
The only thing they should do (as always stated by me) is take more time to test it on Lamania.
When we where on closed beta for the U14, someone started a thread that sounded like this "isn't a bit too soon to release it?"
was he wrong? i think not, if you consider the point brought by GrampaBill it could be not but if you look at all the mess that created releasing it at that stage... up to them, i'm not Turbine company, i'm a farmer i do the things the slow and good way... so... no questions.


I am a new player. So far, I am finding there is *way* more content than I need at this point in time. I am skipping quests that I am over level for because there are plenty of other quests, so why take an XP penalty? Maybe when/if I ever TR a few times, I will run out of new things to do.

Until then, I say fix the **** bugs! I work in SQA. I have seen plenty of products go out with bugs that should never have shipped and conversely, I have worked at companies that listened when SQA said , "Don't ship this yet". Guess which company had happier customers? Guess which company had happier SQA engineers and devs?

Turbine, don't think that if you ship a shoddy product that it won't impact the morale your SQA and Devs. It will. And some of them will get fed up and leave. And once enough people leave, more people start looking for new jobs.

And that's another point i was tryng to bring up, we already have LOADS of contents, we have to skip (we don't have to, we can skip, but it's worthless to leveling to make some quests, so we do it only because they are fun)

The real problem, and it's real (not beacause of the players but of their playstyle) are the hardcore players, they do all quests at best (elite epic) and fast, they run it perfectly and they (with all the right) deserve new contents, the matter is, is this really a game for this kind of players? yes it could be, but doing so, this forces the programmers and devs to rush forward and make quests\raids\contents very very very fast and most of the times they don't have time to make some good, well-made testing.

It seems that there is no solution, in my opinion there is one, but you can't have both, unless as some (doomthreaders and realistic posters, i really hope they are not realistic) say: "the end (of this game) is near!"
so Turbine managers are tryng to collect as much caps as they can...

[Carkolda]

As noted in many of the numerous variations of this tired thread topic, the team that fixes bugs is not the same as the team that designs new content. Having the latter stop working will do absolutely nothing to speed up the former.

Actually, that's most-likely incorrect. Here's why. If the new content team keeps churning out buggy code and broken items, they create more work for the bug fix team. Piling more work on to an already-huge list is going to hurt the overall process, because those bug-fixers will need to re-organize and re-prioritize what gets fixed when. To be honest, I would be utterly stoked if the programmers released U16 with nothing but bug fixes. I would pay money to have that.

Little things like when a RS2 tries to pop an aura, but says "invalid target" until after you mouse over something? Or possibly having to de-select undead to pop a burst after getting a message "invalid target"? Stuff like that gets annoying as hell. Do things like that take a high priority? Of course not. Things like quests not completing trump that annoying factors. Broken ladders are another one.

So when the bug-fix team already has a huge list to process, stacking more broken code on top of that list just means the "annoying" things take longer to get done, if they ever get done.

[Dysmetria]

Ok but what i was tryng to say is this: do make new content, i don't want a static game, but at least take your time to release a good (or decent) product, all this rushing in changing exp from challanges (in some, particular cases it's correct on many other it wasn't needed)
The only thing they should do (as always stated by me) is take more time to test it on Lamania.
When we where on closed beta for the U14, someone started a thread that sounded like this "isn't a bit too soon to release it?"
was he wrong? i think not, if you consider the point brought by GrampaBill it could be not but if you look at all the mess that created releasing it at that stage... up to them, i'm not Turbine company, i'm a farmer i do the things the slow and good way... so... no questions.Alternately, the people that want Turbine to hold off releasing new content with bugs can opt to not purchase that content, (or play it if they are VIPs,) until they have waited as long as they want Turbine to hold off releasing it and/or until enough of the bugs from it are fixed.

Doing so would give them the delay in exchange for a less buggy product they want, while still allowing the rest of the playerbase that would rather have the content released on time to still play it if they want.

Win/Win and Turbine doesn't have to do any useless polls or make any silly changes.

[thebeast1985]

Alternately, the people that want Turbine to hold off releasing new content with bugs can opt to not purchase that content, (or play it if they are VIPs,) until they have waited as long as they want Turbine to hold off releasing it and/or until enough of the bugs from it are fixed.

Doing so would give them the delay in exchange for a less buggy product they want, while still allowing the rest of the playerbase that would rather have the content released on time to still play it if they want.

Win/Win and Turbine doesn't have to do any useless polls or make any silly changes.

Ok, i see your point but i don't agree, i'll explain myself telling you why.
(i'm a ViP and that could already tell you why i don't agree)

I'll make an example:
Assuming you are buyng a new car, you see it, you like it, you buy it.

It works, not perfectly but hey, it's ok.. you like it... (you already payed for)

The retailer contacts you and tells you that you have to go back and swap with another car, same model but.. better! (and you can't refuse)

When it gives you the key for the new car it tells you: "hey pal, remember that the engine could leave you in the middle of a trip, but you can try to restart it, remember that radio works only sometimes and volume goes up and down, remember that sometimes the doors simply don't open but there will be a new model coming soon and we will give it to you for free!"

So just to make it clear, i'm ok with bugs, it's normal that a game have bugs, hell i've played Blizzard games.... and i will not add anything else.

But why you have to release something that is so broken (at this point i have to admit this, i did all the new quests with NO problems in solo, i started the first one with a friend of mine and got broken in the end)

I have found some bugs annoyng, i find that the Challange solution is unfair (total solution, there could have been a correct fix for some but their choice was to nerf all the challanges and this is very... how to say... wrong)

So going back to what you say.
No, i pay for it, when it's released i would like it running.
That's why i say no, even if i have to wait for some time, "nice and slow" some where used to say.

[trespasser]

Alternately, the people that want Turbine to hold off releasing new content with bugs can opt to not purchase that content, (or play it if they are VIPs,) until they have waited as long as they want Turbine to hold off releasing it and/or until enough of the bugs from it are fixed.

Doing so would give them the delay in exchange for a less buggy product they want, while still allowing the rest of the playerbase that would rather have the content released on time to still play it if they want.

Win/Win and Turbine doesn't have to do any useless polls or make any silly changes.

That sounds reasonable, except....

The new stuff they dish out regularly breaks the old stuff we want to run. Recent examples are quite evident - NPCs not triggering in old content (ToD, Sins). I can pretend that the new stuff doesn't exist only if they stop breaking old content.

[Dragavon]

If true, many of the posters here have no one to blame but themselves.

I know after reading a thousand posts saying that the game is "unplayable" and 50% broken, I'd probably start discounting the forums as well. The noise-to-signal ratio is very high here.

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

Agreed. You and Todd Akin right?

[Vormaerin]

What boggles my mind is, how can one quest difficulty on some(?) quests be bugged in an update that "simply" added a few quests, one challenge and fixed some unrelated bugs. I speak of this only as an example, but there are lots of other things that bug when apparently they aren't even touched on a certain patch or update.


I think you are underestimating what is touched in each patch. For example, a current problem seems to be that some mobs spawn late or don't spawn at all. In some U14 quests, some of the 'reaction spawns' in epic quests were spawning in using the pre U14 epic values instead of the correct ones.

So, its possible an attempt to fix that resulted in some different problem with spawning of such mobs that affected spawnable mobs in a different way.

QA would have difficulty ever getting anything done if a dev comment of "I fixed the spawns in epic Blah" meant "play every quest in the game several times to see if it borked any other spawns."

[thebeast1985]

I think you are underestimating what is touched in each patch. For example, a current problem seems to be that some mobs spawn late or don't spawn at all. In some U14 quests, some of the 'reaction spawns' in epic quests were spawning in using the pre U14 epic values instead of the correct ones.

So, its possible an attempt to fix that resulted in some different problem with spawning of such mobs that affected spawnable mobs in a different way.

QA would have difficulty ever getting anything done if a dev comment of "I fixed the spawns in epic Blah" meant "play every quest in the game several times to see if it borked any other spawns."

Not considering that we got... 300? 350? quests or so? how many now? so a test on ALL quests is quite an impressive job even for a large comunity and loads testers, even if they where less even if there was only 100 quests it's an humongous job

[Kylstrem]

Not considering that we got... 300? 350? quests or so? how many now? so a test on ALL quests is quite an impressive job even for a large comunity and loads testers, even if they where less even if there was only 100 quests it's an humongous job

Oh, and some of these spawn issues are only occurring on specific difficulty levels.

So, it's play all quests on all 4 difficulty levels... and then the ones that have Epic, play it on those 4 epic levels as well.

Of course, I would think the main issue is probably the big bowl of spaghetti the code resides in after 6 years of many different different devs adding their own recipes into it.

[knockcocker]

Not considering that we got... 300? 350? quests or so? how many now? so a test on ALL quests is quite an impressive job even for a large comunity and loads testers, even if they where less even if there was only 100 quests it's an humongous job

Except the brand new ones don't work. They were told when U15 was posted to Lammania - within hours - that the
new ones don't work (Overgrowth). They still pushed it out though...

[Arkat]

If I was a dev, there are about 10 posters I'd monitor... Ones that give good focused feedback with suggestions how to fix things.

Shouldn't this be in the Achievements forum?

[Juduss]

Not a programmer of any sort here, but it seems there are few that keep up on this thread. After reading through, it seems there is only two options: fast & full of issues or slow with relatively few. Any reason why there's no middle ground? I'm not one who expects a completely bug free game, but I tend to believe that if quality of play continues to downslide people WILL take there money someplace where they get a better return on investment. If I go to a movie and don't enjoy it, movies from the same people are less likely to receive my money in the future. I feel the same about the games I play. So back to my question: is there some reason why there can't be a schedule balance between the speed of content release and it's quality?

[Horrorscope]

I all for more content and change. The old days weren't all that either. There have been "OMG BUGS" since day one by listening to posters all these years. So I'll take the content and the bugs vs the same ole content and the bugs. And in their case can you make money on selling Adv Packs or bug fixes? Hmmm...

Was it Carlin that said this about the schools and stadiums? If a city needs a stadium, the city says it will hurt the schools. He used the following logic, building the stadium or not ensured the same things about the schools, they would suck either way, so build the stadium.