Cannith Challenges Untouched

[Carkolda]

So... yeah. Just ran 4-star TIM on heroic 20. 1,823 xp with 5% pot, 4% ship buff, and voice. Ran 4-star Epic TIM (23), and get 4,654 or something, with 4% ship buff and voice.

Turbine/Devs: You lied to us. You didn't fix the XP at all.

[Isolani]

So... yeah. Just ran 4-star TIM on heroic 20. 1,823 xp with 5% pot, 4% ship buff, and voice. Ran 4-star Epic TIM (23), and get 4,654 or something, with 4% ship buff and voice.

Turbine/Devs: You lied to us. You didn't fix the XP at all.

Did some challenges to finish off enough dungeon tokens to slot something a couple days ago, they were horrid xp still, even with first star bonus. Don't do any of them unless you actually need the equipment or are grinding tokens.

Ingredient payout is lower than I remember it being also, even though it has supposedly been increased. Pretty sure that when I got a good TIM map with purples near circles I could get 300+ ingredients in 5 min solo, now after many many runs the best I could get solo was 210 or so and that's on a map with no torch lines, just dropping teleporters next to a bunch of purples. Most runs were probably more like 120ish ingredients...so yeah, it's like 70 or 80 runs to slot something now.

I was hoping they would get buffed a bit with the update, I guess not though.

Challenges are pointless now. They seriously f'd these things up.

[Carkolda]

Yup. My main issue is that the devs told us that they will be increasing challenge xp in U15, and well... They didn't. In my book, that's a liar. Congrats devs, you lost any trust I had in you. How can ANY of us believe anything that comes in your posts now? Flip a few levers back to the way it was (Since you've already said you can do this) and unf**k the **** challenges. Paying 1500 for this is the biggest ripoff I have ever seen.

[caberonia]

Yup. My main issue is that the devs told us that they will be increasing challenge xp in U15, and well... They didn't. In my book, that's a liar. Congrats devs, you lost any trust I had in you. How can ANY of us believe anything that comes in your posts now? Flip a few levers back to the way it was (Since you've already said you can do this) and unf**k the **** challenges. Paying 1500 for this is the biggest ripoff I have ever seen.

This, only in a slightly more pleasant tone.

[Artrish]

It feels like its just at that stage where a majority have just discarded the house c challenges as decent exp and just moved onto other content. I disliked the exp lowering in a big way when it happened, i still do and would like the exp increased.

I still run them though, quite often for the exp though i try not to look at the exp being earnt as its quite demotivating though the exp i get from it is still helpfull at times where it is a nicer option to choose then other levelling options.

Likely it will never go back to a fun rate of exp being earned, though heres hoping that the disinterest in the challenge pack at least keeps people away from crying for changes to be made to make it harder.

The loot is still nice that is earned (for those that can kill the bosses in it) and earning ingredients to trade for potions when there isn't much else happening for quests at slow points in a level, is nice as well.

So, for me at least (hopefully others as well) the challenge pack is still very usefull to have access to. I will always play in the hope the nice exp returns but i think the chance of that happening is gone for this addon pack.

[Carkolda]

To me the biggest problem isn't the wasted TP (1495 is way overpriced), nor is it the bait-and-switch Turbine pulled when I purchased the content with one set of characteristics and they changed the major characteristics after it was purchased. No, it's not those two major effective thefts.

No, it's the fact that the Dev's said "Hey, we hear you players, and we're going to make it right and fix the XP." And... here we are, well after U15, and... nothing. It was an utter betrayal of our trust by the Devs. And they just hoped (and succeeded, for the most part) that would just go quietly into the night hoping their outright lie was forgotten.

Don't worry Devs. I haven't forgotten. Nor will many of us. We just won't believe anything that comes out of you from now on. Prove us wrong! I dare you.

[GermanicusMaximus]

To me the biggest problem isn't the wasted TP (1495 is way overpriced)

I was shocked at the price of the challenges when they were released late last year. In my opinion, adventure packs in this game carry a pretty reasonable price, and to me it seemed likely Turbine would eventually reprice the challenges to something that better reflected their value.

Well, I was half right. They were repriced, but only down to 1295. When you take the average price of the MotU adventure packs (2495/3 = a bit over 830 each) the challenges are still the most expensive content in the game by a substantial margin, and not particularly entertaining at that. I've had a much better time running the "hated 3" (Three Barrel Cove, Threnal, and Restless Isles) than I ever did running the Cannith Challenges. Rushmore can be fairly entertaining, but the other 3 range from completely boring to downright vile.

DDO likes to hang on to its mistakes. I guess it only makes sense that Turbine would make it worse by removing the few reasons to run this content at all.

[Kinerd]

Yup. My main issue is that the devs told us that they will be increasing challenge xp in U15, and well... They didn't.It was a stupid, ill-advised, very bad change. With that said, I don't recall any dev post promising that u15 was going to see better challenge XP. The only dev post I remember said that they were going to fix the XP at some point.

Now, as you say, the (justifiably) notorious "levers" comment comes back to bite them on this point, but still.

[samthedagger]

I have never really run the challenges for XP. I run them for fun, to increase my previous score, and to earn ingredients. The XP is kind of a bonus. So I don't consider the challenges a waste. There are a lot of quests in the game I run just for fun. I hate grinding high XP/min quests over and over. That is not fun to me. Playing through quests I haven't done in a while is a lot more interesting. Challenges have that added difficulty layer of being timed and having scores tied to your success, which makes them feel a little like arcade games, which I heartily enjoy.

[AidanRyuko]

I really miss the xp as well, though my main reason for doing the challenges are the items in it but the xp makes the grind in the process worth it, because time is money on epic 21 would give me like 4k pre-cap and 12k on epic levels. I read they won't be restoring it to be as much as it used to be but I'd already be satisfied with 3k per 5 min to at least not make it too much of a time-waste compared to regular questing.

[Musashiclaw]

Dev's Any comments?

[Miow]

Did the dragon's hoard on lvl20 solo, the challenge takes 20 min i collected like 375 crystals total and received like 40 mats....weeeeeweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. What a headbanger of a grind are all the cannith challenges giving such poor reward now?(not to mention the xp)

[Hawkston]

No they aren't all as bad. Dragon's Hoard is terrible for mats, but you should be able to scare up 100-150 mats on a five minute run of Buying Time or Time is Money fairly consistently (as long as you aren't overlevel). Often it is faster to farm one of those and then trade for the mat you need to make whatever it is you're after.

[redspecter23]

The xp awarded in non first runs of challenges is an insultingly low amount. I compare it with going out for a nice meal and leaving a $0.53 tip. Yes, it's better than 0 technically, but it's so infuriatingly low that it would be better off as 0 so you might think the diners simply forgot instead of going out of their way to insult you.

[Zindro]

I have been waiting for this change to log back into the game... It has only been 45 days... I keep hoping they will do what Madfloyd said they would do...

By the way, if anyone wants to see the post to refresh their memories... http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4624346#post4624346

[Ytteri]

Are you guys taking an over level penalty or something? At character level 24, I ran CR25 time is money and consistently get between 100 and 200 mats and 4800 xp for 3 stars with 3% ship and voice. Before I could really get the hang of Time is Money, I ran Buying Time, and again 3 stars got me 4800 xp.

I cant remember which one, but I ran some non-epic challenge a bit too cause I needed the non-epic mats and received horrible mats and xp, which is why I'm wondering if you guys are getting a level penalty.

Now I'm not saying that the xp and rewards are good, but it doesn't seem as bad as you guys are suggesting. At least to me. I remain satisfied with the TP price I paid for the pack.

[Gleep_Wurp]

Yup. My main issue is that the devs told us that they will be increasing challenge xp in U15, and well... They didn't. In my book, that's a liar. Congrats devs, you lost any trust I had in you. How can ANY of us believe anything that comes in your posts now? Flip a few levers back to the way it was (Since you've already said you can do this) and unf**k the **** challenges. Paying 1500 for this is the biggest ripoff I have ever seen.

turbine has no integrity.plain and simple

[Kinerd]

Are you guys taking an over level penalty or something? At character level 24, I ran CR25 time is money and consistently get between 100 and 200 mats and 4800 xp for 3 stars with 3% ship and voice. Before I could really get the hang of Time is Money, I ran Buying Time, and again 3 stars got me 4800 xp.

I cant remember which one, but I ran some non-epic challenge a bit too cause I needed the non-epic mats and received horrible mats and xp, which is why I'm wondering if you guys are getting a level penalty.

Now I'm not saying that the xp and rewards are good, but it doesn't seem as bad as you guys are suggesting. At least to me. I remain satisfied with the TP price I paid for the pack.Epics give triple experience (to 20+ characters). If you had the same (lack of) over-level penalty, you would get 1600 xp for a 3 star run on heroic. Here's the timeline:

-Challenges released, two of which give very good xp/min, all of which give BtC ingredients. Everyone hates BtC ingredients.
-Ingredients changed to BtA.
-New challenges released, give BtC ingredients, all challenges give the epic triple XP. Amazingly, everyone still hates BtC ingredients. (Again, only a minority of challenges give good xp/min.)
-Epic challenge XP is too high, experience nerfed on all epic challenges.
-Epic challenge XP is too high, star bonuses on repeats very strongly nerfed on all challenges (heroic and epic). Used to be 90% of base xp, now 10% of base xp. Notably, these last two were not accomplished with a update/patch/hotfix but with "switches and levers".
-MadFloyd mentions that challenge XP will be tweaked back up.

Currently:

-Eveningstar ingredients still BtC.
-Challenge XP still double nerfed.

It really is that bad, not least because the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing, or even what the left hand is doing.

[eris2323]

The fact that turbine can log in anytime and fix this problem (as evidenced by how it was 'fixed' in the first place without taking the servers down) is disgusting.

Is the only dev who knows how to do it on vacation or something?

[Morbleue]

Yes very sad story. I stopped buying new content until they do something smarter and restore the challenge Xps. It was a really stupid decision. They received tons of praise on the challenges when they got out... on this very forum. It was a big sucess as it solved many things: the Xp issue on level 17-19 quests, possibility to run a quick 5 mns quest when doing a hard to fill LFM while waiting for new team mates, the possibility to solo if there is not much going on.

They shot themselves very severely in the foot. And they aint that bright that they can recognize where it hurts.

[Ytteri]

Epics give triple experience (to 20+ characters). If you had the same (lack of) over-level penalty, you would get 1600 xp for a 3 star run on heroic.

Oh.

Been quite some time since I ran a challenge for any purpose other than solo token farming, so yeah, I can see now the merit of everyone's complaints.

[totalmir]

Come on guys,why would you want more xp from the overpriced challenge pack when you can have all these beautiful bugs on live servers.Seriously,some people always complain.**** and enjoy the bugs and massive lag Turbine provided us with.
Don't forget to say "thank you devsies" either.

[Zindro]

Hello MadFloyd,

What will the fix be for challenge XP? When will it come?

Thank you.

[Ancient]

It is something easy, and would cheer a lot of people up. Why is Turbine not jumping all over a no-brainer?

[redspecter23]

It is something easy, and would cheer a lot of people up. Why is Turbine not jumping all over a no-brainer?

This right here is my number one issue with anything that ever changes in this game. Sometimes it's honestly a balance fix. Sometimes, it's a clear nerf, and often we need it whether we like it or not. The biggest disappointment is that we don't know the guidelines or direction the game is headed in the developer minds so we don't have any insight into what is balanced or not when it comes to shadier issues.

The challenge xp before the nerf was likely too high. After the nerf, we feel it's too low. Do the devs feel it's just right? Do they envision it higher? How high? We can't possibly know without any communication and that's the most troublesome part. It's been said that devs don't have to communicate on the forums, but perhaps it would be a very good move to give us a bit of insight on the intended direction of the game and what certain expectations should be.

When any sort of nerf happens, there should be an open line of communication explaining the reasons for the nerf and why they feel the new way is better. The response we got was "xp is too high, nerfing to oblivion, thanks for playing!" I think a bit more in depth analysis explaining why the new xp is more in line with what they want would have really helped out. Otherwise, as we are doing right now, we'll assume it was a double mistake and keep asking for dev input until they finally decide to respond on the WAI status of the challenge xp.

At least with this change, it is fairly clear the reasons for the change, even if we don't all agree it was necessary to cut it as far as they did. I'm still waiting to hear why a nerf to abbot loot was required (requiring seals to upgrade to loot which dropped normally before). In my mind, that was a change for the sake of change with no balancing reason to be done. We were never given a reason why it was done and were just told to take it and like it. Turbine, please in the future consider communication with all nerfs. Make us understand why it's necessary and to what degree so that we all don't jump on you, assuming you have no clue or whimsically nerf just for the sake of it.

[Carkolda]

This right here is my number one issue with anything that ever changes in this game. Sometimes it's honestly a balance fix. Sometimes, it's a clear nerf, and often we need it whether we like it or not. The biggest disappointment is that we don't know the guidelines or direction the game is headed in the developer minds so we don't have any insight into what is balanced or not when it comes to shadier issues.

The challenge xp before the nerf was likely too high. After the nerf, we feel it's too low. Do the devs feel it's just right? Do they envision it higher? How high? We can't possibly know without any communication and that's the most troublesome part. It's been said that devs don't have to communicate on the forums, but perhaps it would be a very good move to give us a bit of insight on the intended direction of the game and what certain expectations should be.

When any sort of nerf happens, there should be an open line of communication explaining the reasons for the nerf and why they feel the new way is better. The response we got was "xp is too high, nerfing to oblivion, thanks for playing!" I think a bit more in depth analysis explaining why the new xp is more in line with what they want would have really helped out. Otherwise, as we are doing right now, we'll assume it was a double mistake and keep asking for dev input until they finally decide to respond on the WAI status of the challenge xp.

At least with this change, it is fairly clear the reasons for the change, even if we don't all agree it was necessary to cut it as far as they did. I'm still waiting to hear why a nerf to abbot loot was required (requiring seals to upgrade to loot which dropped normally before). In my mind, that was a change for the sake of change with no balancing reason to be done. We were never given a reason why it was done and were just told to take it and like it. Turbine, please in the future consider communication with all nerfs. Make us understand why it's necessary and to what degree so that we all don't jump on you, assuming you have no clue or whimsically nerf just for the sake of it.

Very well said. However, I'm quite certain I'm not the only one that would have not purchased the Challenges if their xp was as abysmal as it is now. I feel like I got bait-and-switched. And if it's such an easy fix (since it was such an easy double nerf), why aren't they doing it? It feels like betrayal.

[Ladywolf]

yah, I bought the challenges because of the experience awarded :(

[Zindro]

Did they fix this yet?

[Doperogue]

Could a DEV or QA Chime in here with an Answer? Alot of us paid money for this content, and would enjoy running it more if you fixed the XP.

It's hard enough even finding people who are still willing to run the challenges due to the bad exp or they plain just dont want to buy it due to that.

Fixing the XP, Stating that there has been a positive improvement/change, Will allow you to sell more Challenge Packs from the DDO store.

[Fejj]

yes we are still planning on upward-adjusting the XP for Challenges, though it's going to require a new formula. In the current form, trying to aim for the middle using the XP adjuster tool still results in some challenges being way too low, or some being way too high. The formula pass is still slated to happen before the end of this year (aiming for 16 but there is a possibility that it may slip into a subsequent patch).

Dev Tracker is your friend

[Carkolda]

Thanks Feji. I guess if they are taking this long to fix their mistake, I have to wonder why they didn't take this long when they screwed us the first two times. Shouldn't this testing have been one before they changed the XP levels?

[Kinerd]

Thanks Feji. I guess if they are taking this long to fix their mistake, I have to wonder why they didn't take this long when they screwed us the first two times. Shouldn't this testing have been one before they changed the XP levels?The trick here is that Turbine is not literally monolithic. This is speculation, but I'm pretty confident it is accurate speculation...

Highly Paid, Highly Out of Touch Executive: Whoa! That challenge xp is way too high. Nerf it!
Poorly Paid, Overworked Developer: Well, uh, actually...
HPHOTE: Do it or you're fired! Ok bye!
#the next day#
HPHOTE: Whoa! That challenge xp is way too high. Nerf it!
Separate and Distinct PPOD: Well, you see the thing is...
HPHOTE: Do it or you're fired! Ok bye! (to self) Wow, deja vu!
#the changes are grudgingly and independently implemented, unbeknownst to either#
HPHOTE: Ok this update we need MORE TREES! I don't see enough trees! Everyone make trees!
PPODs: Well, we were thinking we would tweak up the challenge xp....
HPHOTE, crossly: I see your mouth moving, but I don't hear anything about trees.
PPODs: :(
HPHOTE: Plus that xp was way too high!! :bluffing: It would have to be fundamentally reworked for me to even consider allowing a tweak!
PPODs: Well, we suppose we could squeeze in a complete overhaul in a few months by staying late an hour here or there...
HPHOTE: How many times do I have to say "trees" before I fire you?
PPODs: ... :(

Scene.

[Carkolda]

The trick here is that Turbine is not literally monolithic. This is speculation, but I'm pretty confident it is accurate speculation...

Highly Paid, Highly Out of Touch Executive: Whoa! That challenge xp is way too high. Nerf it!
Poorly Paid, Overworked Developer: Well, uh, actually...
HPHOTE: Do it or you're fired! Ok bye!
#the next day#
HPHOTE: Whoa! That challenge xp is way too high. Nerf it!
Separate and Distinct PPOD: Well, you see the thing is...
HPHOTE: Do it or you're fired! Ok bye! (to self) Wow, deja vu!
#the changes are grudgingly and independently implemented, unbeknownst to either#
HPHOTE: Ok this update we need MORE TREES! I don't see enough trees! Everyone make trees!
PPODs: Well, we were thinking we would tweak up the challenge xp....
HPHOTE, crossly: I see your mouth moving, but I don't hear anything about trees.
PPODs: :(
HPHOTE: Plus that xp was way too high!! :bluffing: It would have to be fundamentally reworked for me to even consider allowing a tweak!
PPODs: Well, we suppose we could squeeze in a complete overhaul in a few months by staying late an hour here or there...
HPHOTE: How many times do I have to say "trees" before I fire you?
PPODs: ... :(

Scene.

Then who do I have to scream at at Turbine HQ to have these people fix their inter-rectal cranium impactitus? Because I'm still upset at this issue, and a "rework" that is being done instead of simply removing the nerfs is a pretty poor response to player outrage.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

They know people will continue to play and pay even with a sharp stick planted firmly in an eye.

They give us updates with weak-sauce fixes to specific things that by and large only affect a very narrow margin of players.

But they non-stop DROP THE ELFING BALL on some of the issues that affect a HUGE NUMBER of players.

They only seem to give an elf about some easy stuff they can fix quickly to perform a "smoke and mirror" type update that looks like it could do something for someone but absolutely FAILS to address most of the far reaching a blanket bugs and ages old known issues.

Handwraps: Still Bugged in many many ways. SOLUTION: Get better acquainted with the stick in the eye.

Healing Spell Power: Still Bugged. The Fix will be bugged. SOLUTION: Get better acquainted with the stick in the eye.

Mob standing 5 feet RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU "You are not facing..." "Out of range...." SOLUTION: Get better acquainted with the stick in your eye.


The fact is DDO models all of life.


Buddhist type quote......"Life is Suffering" SOLUTION: Get better acquainted with the stick in your eye.


Ever feel like you are paying for privilege to be annoyed with the stick in your eye that comes with DDO entertainment?

[bibliomane]

They know people will continue to play and pay even with a sharp stick planted firmly in an eye.

Healing Spell Power: Still Bugged. The Fix will be bugged. SOLUTION: Get better acquainted with the stick in the eye.

Mob standing 5 feet RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU "You are not facing..." "Out of range...." SOLUTION: Get better acquainted with the stick in your eye.

Ever feel like you are paying for privilege to be annoyed with the stick in your eye that comes with DDO entertainment?

I feel this pain.

[Purkilius]

TURBINE DEV listen:

As I understand it the challenges were nerfed due to lvl 18 and 19´s were doing epic challenges and getting huge amount of xp.

The fact is the lvls 18 and 19 are really slow and the action is not the way it used to be so change it back NOW and you will make some precious money.

[Carkolda]

It amuses me that when a group of players that have to slog and grind through the 2-3 worst levels in the game find a way to get XP rolling in (in 8-10k increments, mind you), the initial knee-jerk reaction by the devs is to destroy the xp reward for the entirety of the challenges.

They failed to identify the primary cause of the problem: There isn't enough content at the top levels (17-20) that makes pushing through to 20 easy. So punishing the entirety of the playerbase (treating the symptom) was easier than making more quests at the 17-20 range (treating the disease). The first nerf was bad enough, but the second nerf was really the kick in the ass.

[Farayon]

It amuses me that when a group of players that have to slog and grind through the 2-3 worst levels in the game find a way to get XP rolling in (in 8-10k increments, mind you), the initial knee-jerk reaction by the devs is to destroy the xp reward for the entirety of the challenges.

They failed to identify the primary cause of the problem: There isn't enough content at the top levels (17-20) that makes pushing through to 20 easy. So punishing the entirety of the playerbase (treating the symptom) was easier than making more quests at the 17-20 range (treating the disease). The first nerf was bad enough, but the second nerf was really the kick in the ass.

Well said.

[MRMechMan]

It amuses me that when a group of players that have to slog and grind through the 2-3 worst levels in the game find a way to get XP rolling in (in 8-10k increments, mind you), the initial knee-jerk reaction by the devs is to destroy the xp reward for the entirety of the challenges.

They failed to identify the primary cause of the problem: There isn't enough content at the top levels (17-20) that makes pushing through to 20 easy. So punishing the entirety of the playerbase (treating the symptom) was easier than making more quests at the 17-20 range (treating the disease). The first nerf was bad enough, but the second nerf was really the kick in the ass.

This. People go where the XP is. Particularly when you need a million+ of it for the last levels, and a huge amount of that content is mediocre xp.

People weren't running to challenges, they were fleeing from cannith quests, amrath and IQ1 and their 3-4k base xp with 8000hp mobs.

They still aren't fixed btw. 6 starring a lava caves (not easy, solo) gave like 14k for first time bonus and about 3k for repeats....eugh...used to be 3x that. Don't even get me started on rushmores/kobolds and some of the 15-20minute ones. Flawlessly executed, the best xp quests in the game at level 7-16 give 3k-4k xp/min, or more...why should challenges be nerfed THIS much?

They WERE too high, particularly for epic characters, but taking away a decent source of xp for lvl18-20 characters was not a good move IMO...I see so many TRs stuck at lvl18 straight up QUIT the game that they have to be losing revenue just based on that....challenges being a viable option at that lvl was a good thing.

I do find it ironic that they can flip a switch (without telling anyone, lol) and cut the XP in half (then another 30% lower a few weeks after that), but they cannot unflip the switch and make them decent xp again.

I haven't seen a cannith challenge lfm in weeks that wasn't my own.

[Zindro]

The challenges did need fixed. The first nerf was alright and needed. They also needed to nerf the 5 minute challenge exp. But I quit the game over wha they did. Just completely make challege exp irrelevant while saying some bullcrap about evening out the EXP throughout challenges.

[Carkolda]

They also needed to nerf the 5 minute challenge exp.

This is the mentality that caused the problem in the first place. The 5-minute runs were the ones that were fine, it was the long ones that were too low. On what earth is 300 xp per minute acceptable? That's a waste of time.

[ThePrincipal]

i havent played the game in a long time too. one of the reasons was the challenge nerf. i can handle a slap in the face, but not a kick in the nuts.

[Chai]

People who are saying the challenge Xp was perfectly fine were perfectly fine with leveling through the last 3 levels running 2 challenges, then running the same 2 on epic to level through destinies. This needed to be nerfed.

Now before the nerd rage takes full effect please read further.

The real issue here isnt that they had to nerf a specific easy button, as we all understood this was coming. The issue is instead of evaluating the needs for each quest individually and adjusting accordingly, the quests with the highest xp/min were nuked from orbit, and the issue hasnt been revisited since.

This needs to be revisited with a more fine toothed comb and rebalanced to the expectation of what other quests in those level ranges will give per minute.

[Carkolda]

The problem is you have it backwards. It's not that the "easy button" needed to be nerfed, it's that the rest of the quests needed to be brought up, and I'm not just talking about challenges. I'm talking about everything. If you have something that can reliably provide 800-1k xp per minute, and others are providing an abysmal 2-300 per minute (or less), then you have two choices: Downgrade the good xp, or upgrade the poor xp.

The XP slog, especially on double+ TR's, even with BB's, is rough... specifically between 18 and 20.

On a double-TR, level 20 takes 4.3 million xp. Now take the basic expectation using BB to get you enough xp to get you to say... 16 relatively easily. Between 16 and 20 you need to earn roughly 2 million xp. At the "good" level of xp (1k per minute), you're talking 2,000 minutes of gameplay (or 33 hours). At 300 xp per minute, you're talking 6700 minutes of gameplay (or 111 hours).

Now, I'm not gonna lie... I do not relish the idea of slogging through an extra 80 hours of play just because someone takes issue with there being an "easy" button. The quests at higher levels do not provide enough xp, plain and simple. And there aren't enough quests at higher levels to fill in the gap in xp. Yes, some of these quests give 30k xp at the end of the run, but that's the first time running through. 30k doesn't even DENT 2 million xp.

The problem is turbine identified the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. And their only reaction was to destroy the xp gained from a pack people paid for to help prevent people from... what? Gaining levels too fast?

[MRMechMan]

This needs to be revisited with a more fine toothed comb and rebalanced to the expectation of what other quests in those level ranges will give per minute.

Trouble is, IQ1/amrath/cannith quests give ***** xp so balancing new content to those is like pegging the dollar to monopoly money.

[krtkoo]

People who are saying the challenge Xp was perfectly fine were perfectly fine with leveling through the last 3 levels running 2 challenges, then running the same 2 on epic to level through destinies. This needed to be nerfed.

Now before the nerd rage takes full effect please read further........



Hi, I read further. But cant agree with you. Time is money was giving 3k xp per minute if you were good enough to get 5 stars (or 6? Dont remember tbh) and run the challenge on higher difficulty (mby 3 lvls higher then your char lvl). Cant really agree this challenge was pike fest – if you wanted to get all stars in 5 mins, pple had to contribute and the scaling in challenges is higher then in quests. If pple wanted to run 1 or 2 challenges over and over till they capped (from lvl 18-20) i am perfectly ok with it. nowadays pple are running impossible demands or broken blades to cap their desitinie over and over and they are getting more xp/min then challenges ever gave them.

I didnt do it because it was boring and actually you can run quests in this lvl range which gives you 3k xp / min (asuming you have 30% xp pot and at least 2 good players in the group). I dont get why pple say 1 k xp/ min is good xp – it is not, cos with tome, bb and xp pots if you are running q below 2k xp / min they are either running wrong quests or they are slow :) (hint: check achievemnt forum where tr zergers put screenshots).

Now it is ok to run challenges after you reach lvl 18 exactly 1 time to get 5 stars. And then leave them – mby its ok to repeat them if you need ingrediences, but not for xp. I would suggest 2k xp/ min for challenges is perfectly fine (imo for that price of the pack you should get something worth it).

[Kinerd]

Then who do I have to scream at at Turbine HQ to have these people fix their inter-rectal cranium impactitus? Because I'm still upset at this issue, and a "rework" that is being done instead of simply removing the nerfs is a pretty poor response to player outrage.Regrettably the people who make the decisions have absolutely 0 interest in hearing from you, me, or any other customer, or anyone who in any way cares about the game. It's clearly not about game design, it's clearly not about money. What is it about? Nihilists, dude.
People who are saying the challenge Xp was perfectly fine were perfectly fine with leveling through the last 3 levels running 2 challenges, then running the same 2 on epic to level through destinies. This needed to be nerfed.

Now before the nerd rage takes full effect please read further.

The real issue here isnt that they had to nerf a specific easy button, as we all understood this was coming. The issue is instead of evaluating the needs for each quest individually and adjusting accordingly, the quests with the highest xp/min were nuked from orbit, and the issue hasnt been revisited since.

This needs to be revisited with a more fine toothed comb and rebalanced to the expectation of what other quests in those level ranges will give per minute.The way the bolded statement is inaccurate is also one of the biggest flaws with the change. Every challenge was nerfed, because what was nerfed was the amount stars granted (and of course every challenge has stars). It turned the good XP challenges into middling XP and the middling XP challenges into trash.

.

People are always going to gravitate towards what's the best. If you ruin what was the best at the time in the name of variety, people just get annoyed and go to the new best. If you enhance what was the worst at the time, people might go to it or they might not, but they won't get annoyed. It's not rocket science.

[knockcocker]

The problem is you have it backwards. It's not that the "easy button" needed to be nerfed, it's that the rest of the quests needed to be brought up, and I'm not just talking about challenges. I'm talking about everything. If you have something that can reliably provide 800-1k xp per minute, and others are providing an abysmal 2-300 per minute (or less), then you have two choices: Downgrade the good xp, or upgrade the poor xp.

The XP slog, especially on double+ TR's, even with BB's, is rough... specifically between 18 and 20.

On a double-TR, level 20 takes 4.3 million xp. Now take the basic expectation using BB to get you enough xp to get you to say... 16 relatively easily. Between 16 and 20 you need to earn roughly 2 million xp. At the "good" level of xp (1k per minute), you're talking 2,000 minutes of gameplay (or 33 hours). At 300 xp per minute, you're talking 6700 minutes of gameplay (or 111 hours).

Now, I'm not gonna lie... I do not relish the idea of slogging through an extra 80 hours of play just because someone takes issue with there being an "easy" button. The quests at higher levels do not provide enough xp, plain and simple. And there aren't enough quests at higher levels to fill in the gap in xp. Yes, some of these quests give 30k xp at the end of the run, but that's the first time running through. 30k doesn't even DENT 2 million xp.

The problem is turbine identified the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. And their only reaction was to destroy the xp gained from a pack people paid for to help prevent people from... what? Gaining levels too fast?

Awesome post. +1

[Musashiclaw]

Awesome post. +1

I agree.
I leave for a few months and I see they still havent fixed the Challenges or done anything to balance XP.

I want to TR but my urge to TR is not enough to make me do the grind. Tooo many other fun games out there to play.

[Carkolda]

So... I have to wonder when these "Fixes" are coming. I know we were promised them, and that they needed extensive testing. So... it's been 3 months... more than enough time for full-time programmers to fix a problem. I propose that either Turbine refunds our points (since they broke the product after we bought it), or fixes the xp. Any devs wanna chime in? I'm not going to forget this affront.

[Kinerd]

According to the release notes, the optional star bonus was increased from 10% to 25%. I of course was unable to log in yesterday, it being update day, but is this not the case?

Obviously it's not back to the 90% we used to enjoy, it's unclear why such a basic change would take so long to implement, and it's extremely unclear how certain dev posts about total overhauls were reduced to 10% -> 25%... but it's something at least.

[Carkolda]

I agree. Will have to see what the true impact is.

[mobrien316]

I ran level 21 Labor Shortage on my level 20 cleric a bunch of times today and yesterday after the update.

I was getting 200+ mats each time, but only fair XP, somewhere around 5000 to 6000 for a ten minute challenge. I was only doing it for the mats, so the low-to-fair XP was not really an issue.

[Zindro]

This isn't the overhaul we were told is coming... we were told there would be one either in Update 16 or in a patch.

My guess... they do not have time to truely fix it, and this was their bandaid to try and limit the outcry.

[Zzevel]

To me the biggest problem isn't the wasted TP (1495 is way overpriced), nor is it the bait-and-switch Turbine pulled when I purchased the content with one set of characteristics and they changed the major characteristics after it was purchased. No, it's not those two major effective thefts.

No, it's the fact that the Dev's said "Hey, we hear you players, and we're going to make it right and fix the XP." And... here we are, well after U15, and... nothing. It was an utter betrayal of our trust by the Devs. And they just hoped (and succeeded, for the most part) that would just go quietly into the night hoping their outright lie was forgotten.

Don't worry Devs. I haven't forgotten. Nor will many of us. We just won't believe anything that comes out of you from now on. Prove us wrong! I dare you.




In the immortal words from Animal House... "YOU F*%&ED UP!.. You trusted us!"

[MartinusWyllt]

lvl 20 TiM about 1900 on a 5 min with 3 stars (with 20% tome bonus)

380 xp/min

about 200 ingredients for a +90 crystal run

[Jerren]

This isn't the overhaul we were told is coming... we were told there would be one either in Update 16 or in a patch.

My guess... they do not have time to truely fix it, and this was their bandaid to try and limit the outcry.

I would have to agree with you on this. Devs are probably still working on fixing Mabar in time for Thanksgiving and possibly, hopefully, trying to fix the Cove as well in addition to creating new content for us to spend our precious TP's on, oh and adding more ad's to the UI to remind us to spend our TP's.

[Kinerd]

lvl 20 TiM about 1900 on a 5 min with 3 stars (with 20% tome bonus)

380 xp/min

about 200 ingredients for a +90 crystal runAt 10% per star, we would expect...
1000 + 3 * 100 = 1300
1300 * 1.25 (voices on) = 1625

At 25%...
1000 + 3 * 250 = 1750
1750 * 1.25 = 2187.5

So... hmm.

Can anyone just say what they see for a star and a base? That would be the easiest.

[TPICKRELL]

At 10% per star, we would expect...
1000 + 3 * 100 = 1300
1300 * 1.25 (voices on) = 1625

At 25%...
1000 + 3 * 250 = 1750
1750 * 1.25 = 2187.5

So... hmm.

Can anyone just say what they see for a star and a base? That would be the easiest.

Tested it the day after U16 went in, and EPIC TiM was 3K base + 750 per star

[Kinerd]

Great, thanks! :)

Well... somewhat better, thanks! :)

[Musashiclaw]

I usually like to fill in some xp with challenges when cant find a group. Level 14-15 is such terrible levels.. I wish I could skip them.

I tried some runs this morning was getting 2000 xp in buying time and I still had a 20% xp pot running. I was level 14 and did level 15 buying time.

This is pretty depressing!

[Postumus]

Yeah they really dropped the ball when they 'adjusted' the challenge xps.

I used to run them on my TRs when I got bored. Kill some time, collect some xps, collect some ingredients... now I don't even bother.

It's pretty sad when slayer xps seem better than the challenges.

[fco-karatekid]

...The biggest disappointment is that we don't know the guidelines or direction the game is headed in the developer minds so we don't have any insight into what is balanced or not when it comes to shadier issues....

It's headed in a general... that way direction, per Jack Sparrow.

Direction and vision come from leadership, which appears to be in a general state of disarray right now. Game feels schizophrenic as to what it wants to be right now.

[fco-karatekid]

People who are saying the challenge Xp was perfectly fine were perfectly fine with leveling through the last 3 levels running 2 challenges, then running the same 2 on epic to level through destinies. This needed to be nerfed.

Now before the nerd rage takes full effect please read further.

The real issue here isnt that they had to nerf a specific easy button, as we all understood this was coming. The issue is instead of evaluating the needs for each quest individually and adjusting accordingly, the quests with the highest xp/min were nuked from orbit, and the issue hasnt been revisited since.

This needs to be revisited with a more fine toothed comb and rebalanced to the expectation of what other quests in those level ranges will give per minute.

Oh ****, I agree with Chai :O

[Postumus]

Oh ****, I agree with Chai :O

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. :)

[gaffneyks]

Once again turbine disappoints. One more negative to add to a growing list.

[Musashiclaw]

seems they lowered them even more.
Ran Buying time on my level 20 at level 20 and got 100 wings and like 1.5k xp used to get 4-5k xp and 125-150 wings

Very frustrating.

[danzig138]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. :)

Not once it's been smashed into pieces for being obnoxious one to many times.

[cidchronic]

I have never really run the challenges for XP. I run them for fun, to increase my previous score, and to earn ingredients. The XP is kind of a bonus. So I don't consider the challenges a waste. There are a lot of quests in the game I run just for fun. I hate grinding high XP/min quests over and over. That is not fun to me. Playing through quests I haven't done in a while is a lot more interesting. Challenges have that added difficulty layer of being timed and having scores tied to your success, which makes them feel a little like arcade games, which I heartily enjoy.

agree, run for fun, xp is bonus, enjoy

[DaSawks]

I just ran one of the Dr Rushmore quests at level (12). 28 minutes and I earned 5k exp. Awefull. This needs to be looked at.

[Sircowdog]

I never ran any challenges until just recently. And the only reason I was running them at all was for epic challenge mats to turn into epic tokens for a TR. Honestly, I didn't even notice the exp at all.

Ran TIM since that's what everyone says is the easiest challenge for farming. Was pulling 100 or so mats on a terrible run, and around 200 on a good run. 5-6 minutes tops.

Not having any prior exposure to challenges, this seemed reasonable to me. Although I will agree that the stretch between 18-20 is fairly horrendous.

Quest difficulty and time spent need to be reflected in the rewards. As someone said earlier: each quest needs to be evaluated on an individual basis. Not with blanket nerfs/buffs.

[brickwall]

before they nurfed the challenges they where barley worth while to run and now there not worth even thinking about. there a complete and utter waste of time as they are now. great sales tactics put out a decent challenge pack and let everyone talk about how there worth doing then when they start to turn main stream nurf them so there totally worthless and make everyone regret we ever payed for them.

[Nitesco]

These had great loot and were abused for XP. So instead of Turbine's efforts being focused on adjusting the ingredients payout so that capped characters can still make base items, they nerfed, un-nerfed and re-nerfed them to cater for the 'always looking for exploits/shortcuts after each new release' crowd.

[oradafu]

These had great loot and were abused for XP. So instead of Turbine's efforts being focused on adjusting the ingredients payout so that capped characters can still make base items, they nerfed, un-nerfed and re-nerfed them to cater for the 'always looking for exploits/shortcuts after each new release' crowd.

I have to say that the inability for 20+ characters to grind a reasonable number of mats for the base item is one of the newest complaints I have with the House C Challenges.

First, the House C Challenges were way overpriced (and still are). Second, not every melee style weapon, much less every type of weapon) was included in this most expensive pack in the game. Third, the challenges were presented, before being unveiled, as fast and solo-friendly, but we got very anti-solo non-melee stuff that ranged from a few minutes to complete to the very long (and unable to exit) 45+ minute Rushmore challenges. Fourth, we got the multiple nerfings of both XP and Mats since it's been released. And I'm sure I'm forgetting some other stuff, besides the missing Wand Bracelet.

Now with the cap raised to 25, the base Epic item must have the mats farmed for before level 21 or else you start getting a heavy penalty. If you're over level 20, it would be nice if players had the option of trading either the heroic mats or the Epic mats for the base Epic items.

Now granted, the one thing that the House C Challenges got right (after players complained about it) was the BTA mats. That's one of three things that the House C Challenges: the other two are the ability to farm Epic Tokens and not having random items as rewards (being BTC makes it even worse).

-- I don't mean to go completely off topic here, but the Eveningstar random melee loot would have been more sought after if one of the random tiers included a random Slayer effect similar to the Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger. Yu might have traded in the mats for a horrible weapon, but it might be useful against that particular type or subtype trash.

[MartinusWyllt]

agree, run for fun, xp is bonus, enjoy

Having a pack with 30 crests in it and faced with a door wanting 3 wolf crests when you have exactly zero on you isn't a situation I personally consider fun...having that situation recur about 1/4 runs even less so. Now if the pile of skeleton keys could be used more than once so that good runs could be salvaged in a pinch, well, that would be more fun to me. (using dropped keys).

[QuantumFX]

Personally, I would love to see the first time bonus applied once at every difficult level. This would make challenges a fun leveling tool.

[Postumus]

I have to say that the inability for 20+ characters to grind a reasonable number of mats for the base item is one of the newest complaints I have with the House C Challenges.



I don't understand what you mean by the statement above. L20 characters can grind enough mats for any base item in about 2 hours.

See this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4805145&postcount=48) for more details.


Or are you saying the mat return is decreased when you run the challenges over level? I still don't see that as a significant problem with anyone who has more than one character since the mats and items are BTA. Simply running the challenges before level 21 also takes care of that problem.

[redspecter23]

I don't understand what you mean by the statement above. L20 characters can grind enough mats for any base item in about 2 hours.

For someone that has all their toons capped at 25, they will receive so few mats per run that it could take months to create one item due to overlevel mat penalties. Level 20 toons have no issue, but if you're stuck with only 25's to run with, you simply can't make base items. I'm pretty sure that's the point that is trying to be made. You can't "de-level" your toon to 20 in order to run challenges. Your only option may be to TR and hit them at an appropriate level range your next time through. That's not considered to be an acceptable workaround for most people, I'm guessing.

[danotmano1998]

Shouldn't this testing have been one before they changed the XP levels?

Lol!

Exactly. Downgrading the XP probably took them going in and flicking a "switch". Downgrading it the second time was probably even faster.

But fixing it the "right" way takes months....

And, NOW they're worried about testing it?
:rolleyes:


Turbine: I think I speak for (most) of the players when I say to you...
Flip the switch back to the closest middle ground you can find soon.. Getting a little extra XP in a few of the challenges isn't going to make nearly as many people upset as not doing anything for months..

[danotmano1998]

For someone that has all their toons capped at 25, they will receive so few mats per run that it could take months to create one item due to overlevel mat penalties. I'm pretty sure that's the point that is trying to be made.

I believe you're right on the money.
Which this particular problem could be easily fixed by allowing an epic material turn in for regular materials. The barter mechanic is already in place for these.

[Postumus]

For someone that has all their toons capped at 25, they will receive so few mats per run that it could take months to create one item due to overlevel mat penalties. Level 20 toons have no issue, but if you're stuck with only 25's to run with, you simply can't make base items. I'm pretty sure that's the point that is trying to be made. You can't "de-level" your toon to 20 in order to run challenges. Your only option may be to TR and hit them at an appropriate level range your next time through. That's not considered to be an acceptable workaround for most people, I'm guessing.


Yeah I that's what I surmised after my second cup of coffee. I'm such an altaholic I tend to forget other players may not have multiple characters at various levels.

If that is the case, I think creating a designated 'challenge toon' would be in order. Something designed for speed and self-sufficiency with good melee punch that can blast through the challenges at a good clip.

[Nitesco]

Yeah I that's what I surmised after my second cup of coffee. I'm such an altaholic I tend to forget other players may not have multiple characters at various levels.

If that is the case, I think creating a designated 'challenge toon' would be in order. Something designed for speed and self-sufficiency with good melee punch that can blast through the challenges at a good clip.

No I think just having an epic for regular material turn-in would solve the problem.

[oradafu]

Yeah I that's what I surmised after my second cup of coffee. I'm such an altaholic I tend to forget other players may not have multiple characters at various levels.

If that is the case, I think creating a designated 'challenge toon' would be in order. Something designed for speed and self-sufficiency with good melee punch that can blast through the challenges at a good clip.

Having the onus for making Epic items directly attached to the level of a player doing the quest/challenge is a horrible design. Creating a "designated challenge toon" to make these items would be like telling players if they want to make an ESOS for example, they must stay in at-level range for the heroic Dragon raid until they get the SOS because once you go over-level, the chances of the base item dropping for your character will start decreasing.

Okay, that's not the best example. Let's change it to Epic Red Dragonscale Armor. If the various Dragon Scales needed to make the base armor were BTA and the chances of them dropping would decrease as players do the quests overlevel, players would have two options. One option would be to park a character at level for Tor or the other dragon quests until they got enough to make the item. The other is to farm these quests overlevel (in which Prey would probably be the one everyone would start running) so they can start making the armor. Again, this isn't a great example since Dragon Scales aren't BTC or BTA and swappable in chests while you only need 20 compared to the 1800 for the guaranteed Challenge mats...

I hope you get the idea. The design is fine when the cap was 20. However, with the level cap at 25, the penalty is very hefty for players that are overlevel to make the base items.

[Nitesco]

Let's just keep it simple, Turbine started selling the challenge pack to all players. I think we can agree that one of the main reasons people play DDO and buy new content is to develop their characters, mainly via XP and loot. People who bought the pack now have to stay within a certain level range to reasonably use the loot from this pack. The XP has also been drasitcally reduced. Turbine's position is clearly hypocritical on what their intentions for this pack are.

I know I am feeling pretty ripped off right now, being unable to craft any base items after shelling out for this pack, so the whole thing is totally useless to me now. I know this is like going to the casino manager and asking for a refund after putting my paycheck into the slot machines, but how long before even the illusion of anything other than the utter shameless fleecing of addicts going to be maintained?