New Fighter/Barbarian Feats: Healing Improvement and Regeneration

[Raithe]

I'm sure someone has probably suggested these before, but I think now is a particular good time to address the idea again (if applicable), with the upcoming enhancement revamp.

Healing Improvement:
---------------------
For every level of fighter, a character gains 1% healing improvement that stacks additively with Warforged Healers Friend. While in living construct form, warforged gain 2% repair improvement.

For every TWO levels of barbarian, a character gains 3% healing improvement that stacks additively with Warforged Healers Friend. While in living construct form, warforged gain 6% repair improvement.

These can be supplemented with enhancements available at level 5, 10, and 15 that provide 5% healing/10% repair additional healing improvement each (but at AP costs of 2, 4, 6).

Regeneration:
----------------------
At fighter and barbarian levels 11, a regeneration feat is granted that heals 1 hit point every 30 seconds, or 2 hit points if in living construct form. These values are not subject to amplification.

I think in addition to the recent AC and PRR changes, this would put fighters and barbarians in a position to take melee/ranged aggro and contribute to parties in a consistent manner.

[Lonnbeimnech]

The problem here is, if you wanted to build a self sufficient fighter/barb you already can. It's only those people that refuse to sacrifice even 1% of their dps for self sufficiency that complain, and they are not going to 'waste a feat' to 'gimp their dps'.

[Raithe]

The problem here is, if you wanted to build a self sufficient fighter/barb you already can. It's only those people that refuse to sacrifice even 1% of their dps for self sufficiency that complain, and they are not going to 'waste a feat' to 'gimp their dps'.

These would not be optional feats. They would be automatically granted to the class, just like sneak attack and Trap Sense for rogues.

They would benefit the other people in the party as much as the character who had them.

[Thrudh]

I'd be all for this if they were feats you had to take in your normal feat slots (make them more powerful though, and more powerful again for barbarians since they have less feat slots).

I am totally against giving passive feats like this to fighters and barbarians. If they want to sacrifice a feat slot, then I think it's a great idea.

Character builds are about choices. I'm perfectly fine with giving hard-core melee more options to self-heal. They should not get it automatically with zero sacrifice.

[Raithe]

Character builds are about choices. I'm perfectly fine with giving hard-core melee more options to self-heal. They should not get it automatically with zero sacrifice.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, and I would probably agree with you except I think this is one of those rare occasions where its easier to buff a few classes than nerf everyone else.

Pale masters were given healing at essentially small cost (light susceptiblity... woo hoo). The ability to buy healing scrolls in mass quantities from a vendor gave rogues very low cost healing (and they are likely to take UMD anyway). Continuous changes to spellpower and spell costs has reduced the healing costs for casters and hybrids to the point of ridiculousness. Power creep and excessive gear has made it easy for sorcs to get high UMD with little to no investment.

Note a level 20 fighter will get 20% healing amp essentially free. Not a big deal.
A level 20 barb will get 30% healing amp essentially free. Kinda a big deal.

If they are warforged they'll be about as easy to heal as a non-warforged paladin, if they take Healer's Friend. But they will be MUCH easier to repair, and it may serve to boost the hybrid options for a caster/melee warforged (3 levels of wizard for repair moderate, maybe 5 for repair serious?).

[Lonnbeimnech]

These would not be optional feats. They would be automatically granted to the class, just like sneak attack and Trap Sense for rogues.

They would benefit the other people in the party as much as the character who had them.

So then, if a paladin wanted healing amp he would have to take the hunter of the dead pre and spend 27 AP (though he would probably want the extra lay on hands anyway, so lets say 24) to get 30%. But a barbarian gets 30% for free, and can spend 10 ap to pump that up to 45% and even more if he is a wf even though lower healing is a penalty for wf.

Yeah, that seems fair... while we are at it, let's give them FoD and firewall too.

[Raithe]

So then, if a paladin wanted healing amp he would have to take the hunter of the dead pre and spend 27 AP (though he would probably want the extra lay on hands anyway, so lets say 24) to get 30%. But a barbarian gets 30% for free, and can spend 10 ap to pump that up to 45% and even more if he is a wf even though lower healing is a penalty for wf.

Yeah, that seems fair... while we are at it, let's give them FoD and firewall too.

Your opinion. In my opinion, paladins will still trump barbarians/fighters for the following reasons:

1) Ability to heal others, not just themselves.
2) Higher saves and better defense for the entire party.
3) Buffs (deathward, resist energy, etc)
4) Lay on Hands and self-healing spells

I know that much of the playerbase thinks these are small-time non-issues because they are min-maxers and choose to waste half of their class abilities anyway, to maximize the few they want to deal with.

The game needs to be balanced around people that don't waste abilities. I'm comparing my ranger and fighter directly, both made by me within months of each other, both about 6 years old. The healing improvement wouldn't put them on even terms, but it might come fairly close.

[sephiroth1084]

No.

Let's see a few reasons for why not.
First, there's simply no reason to include such a lopsided change to the game (buffing fighters and barbarians only), and in this way (via healing amp).


Healing amp is way too strong in the game already without adding more sources, and in particular sources that don't require any investment.


Second, Stalwart Defenders are already arguably better tanks in many situations than Defenders of Siberys without throwing SDs +20% healing amp for free, let alone an additional +15% on top of that for 10 AP.


Third, there's zero reason, thematically, for fighters and barbarians to heal better than anyone else. And certainly no mechanical reason for them to be better at it than paladins who have a minor interaction with healing amp (past life, Hunter of the Dead), or barbarians to get even more healing amp than monks for free/cheap.


We need better sources of self-healing. We need things that exist between CSW potions and Lesser Silver Flame potions, things equivalent to Lesser SF pots, and things between lesser SF and SF pots, but without the huge penalties, and they need to be easier to acquire than the healing potions that can be obtained from the Commendation vendors in FR.


There are enough options in the game to support non-barbarians without too much difficulty. Even fighters can get enough UMD for Heal scrolls, and any class can be coupled with Half-Elf for access to Heal scrolls. I say non-barbarians, because rage preventing scroll usage makes UMD fairly worthless for them most of the time. That said, barbarians can also endure the penalties on SF pots better than many other characters.


As for warforged, they are already getting a slight buff with the proposed changes to Healer's Friend, and having a penalty to healing is part of the cost of playing a WF. If that penalty is deemed to still be too severe, it's likely because their other benefits aren't significant enough (and I'm not saying that is the case), and should be buffed.


We should probably see some Repair Amp added to the game, but that's a separate issue, and should be addressed in the same ways that healing amp is (items, enhancements where they make sense, and other sources).

[sephiroth1084]

Your opinion. In my opinion, paladins will still trump barbarians/fighters for the following reasons:

1) Ability to heal others, not just themselves. As someone who has been playing paladins here for over 4 years, I can tell you that this comes up rarely (even rarer still when you consider that for most of the situations that this is needed, anyone else with an Aid or GH clicky could accomplish the same feat), and is hardly a considered benefit of being a paladin.
2) Higher saves and better defense for the entire party. An entirely separate issue from self-healing. If you want to argue that the saves some how figure in, I'd direct you to the barbarian's DR 9/- and quite possibly more HP, and Improved Uncanny Dodge, or the fighter's better HP, not to mention the ease of splashing 2 paladin on a fighter to get equivalent saves as the pure paladin has.
3) Buffs (deathward, resist energy, etc) Most are obtainable in several other ways. The only time I use DW on my paladin is when I'm soloing, far away from the party divine, or my DW expires/I died and I don't feel like asking for a refresh on DW. All of my other characters carry 2-3 DW clickies each, which is generally sufficient for most quests I'd enter without someone who can cast DW anyway.
4) Lay on Hands and self-healing spells Unless you're looking at Unyielding Sentinel (and you shouldn't be, since we are discussing heroic classes, and not epic destinies), Lay On Hands is emergency-only healing. It's good, yes, but hardly worth fighters and barbarians getting +20-30% amp over paladins, and self-cast CSW is only better than drinking a pot if you invest in them significantly.
Not quite.

[Raithe]

No.
First, there's simply no reason to include such a lopsided change to the game (buffing fighters and barbarians only), and in this way (via healing amp).


I'm addressing this issue because there have been numerous posts recently concerning the issue of fighter and barbarian self-healing. You may consider that other people may play the game in drastically different ways than you do.



Healing amp is way too strong in the game already without adding more sources, and in particular sources that don't require any investment.


This I agree with. Lets nerf everyone then... right?



Second, Stalwart Defenders are already arguably better tanks in many situations than Defenders of Siberys without throwing SDs +20% healing amp for free, let alone an additional +15% on top of that for 10 AP.


Just like you can point out that a fighter can splash paladin for saves, a DoS could splash fighter for healing amp. I think its amusing that this boils down to a discussion of tanks... cause I have yet to see a situation in the game where it wouldn't be better to simply use a melee Favored Soul with about 700 hp and who stacked DoTs while shield blocking. Wait for his aggro to cement, then have everyone attack.



Third, there's zero reason, thematically, for fighters and barbarians to heal better than anyone else.


If we need a theme, its that Paladins are defense-oriented and -supposedly- take little damage while leading the charge, while fighters and barbs are grunts that take a lot of damage then have to heal afterwards. I had it in mind, even tho I'm not sure we really need it.



We need better sources of self-healing. We need things that exist between CSW potions and Lesser Silver Flame potions, things equivalent to Lesser SF pots, and things between lesser SF and SF pots, but without the huge penalties, and they need to be easier to acquire than the healing potions that can be obtained from the Commendation vendors in FR.


Absolutely not. We need a boost to a couple of classes, we don't need favored souls soloing more raids.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Just like you can point out that a fighter can splash paladin for saves, a DoS could splash fighter for healing amp.

Splash 2 fighter for a whoping 2% heal amp or splash more and give up tier 3 of their pre? hrm, may as well splash 20 and go SD.

The flip side of that is a barbarian can splash 20 levels of fvs if he really wants to heal himself.

[LordPiglet]

There are racial choices that allow these classes to get better healing amp.

There is no need for an inherint fighter / barb healing amp.

[Raithe]

Splash 2 fighter for a whoping 2% heal amp or splash more and give up tier 3 of their pre? hrm, may as well splash 20 and go SD.


Well, they would gain 2 feats, and I wouldn't be against adding some healing amp feats to the selected feat list.

I'm just not addressing that here.

EDIT: Note that the 2% is stacked additively with base healing rate, and by the time it goes through 3 or 4 healing amps its a bigger number of hit points:

.02 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.2 * 1.1 = .044 = 4.4% additional healing

[Raithe]

There are racial choices that allow these classes to get better healing amp.

There is no need for an inherint fighter / barb healing amp.

I guess that works fine if the fighter/barb in your party is of the right race and has decided to spend APs on it.

This suggestion is as much for my sorc and bard as it is for my fighter. I want to feel good again about having fighters and barbs in my party.

[Scraap]

Regeneration:
----------------------
At fighter and barbarian levels 11, a regeneration feat is granted that heals 1 hit point every 30 seconds, or 2 hit points if in living construct form. These values are not subject to amplification.

I think in addition to the recent AC and PRR changes, this would put fighters and barbarians in a position to take melee/ranged aggro and contribute to parties in a consistent manner.

On this one, I seem to recall a variant rule in... 2? 2.5? that allowed for a con score of >20 to regain their con mod in HPs per round, or something along those lines.

Not sure it's advisable, but there is precedent.

[Raithe]

On this one, I seem to recall a variant rule in... 2? 2.5? that allowed for a con score of >20 to regain their con mod in HPs per round, or something along those lines.


Ya I think you could boost the regeneration a bit, for DDO it would probably need to be CON mod / 2 or something to be balanced.

I added the regeneration for the slow-going soloer crowd, and used the already-existing item effect as a baseline.

[voxson5]

Because we need more easy buttons in this game

/no

[Havok.cry]

I agree with all those saying "not for free"

[voxson5]

Agreed, if anything it would need to come at some cost or consequence.

There are already many ways for melee to regain health (easier for non-raged types).

But that said, if Shade can solo elite sins (and butcher everything in the process) on a 28pt barb With just silver flame pots, I'm pretty confident that the average pug melee needs more than just passive low point healing to 'make you feel good about having them in the party'.

[fmalfeas]

Rather than buffing healing amp on them, why not focus on their ability to the mitigate the damage in the first place? Then, surprise surprise, they don't need to be healed as much!

[Raithe]

Agreed, if anything it would need to come at some cost or consequence.


No, that is exactly what we DON'T need. I have addressed this. This is not for my own personal use, the suggestion is for balancing purposes. Having a cure serious wounds pot do 33 pts of repair instead of 25 (for a level 20 barb) is not going to tip the scales much. It takes my cleric, my bard, or my ranger to intervene to make the ability come to full use.



There are already many ways for melee to regain health (easier for non-raged types).


True, and this would amplify those ways. Healing Spring and Fury of the Wild Fast Healing work great on my ranger... but they may need a bit more umph on a barb, especially if he doesn't have 120 devotion spellpower.

[grgurius]

So, why would be this limited only to fighters and barbarians?

[voxson5]

the suggestion is for balancing purposes

This game is still supposed to be based on D&D. It is not WoW (yet) or guildwars.

( d&d ideology of party uses individual skillsets and strengths as a cohesive group to overcome obsticles)

[CaptainSpacePony]

I strongly disagree with the OP.
1st of all, this sort of change, if implemented, should apply to all classes, not just a select 2.
2ndly, base heal amp and regen over time would be a significant adjustment to the game system, similar to (but less than) the recent to hit/PRR system overhaul.

Speaking of PRR, it has gone a long way for characters (especially melees) to reduce the beatings they take.

Oh, and I found this funny:

In my opinion, paladins will still trump barbarians/fighters...

I LOVE my paladin, but I have to admit, he's my most gimp character. Paladins could use some buffing before they equal much less trump barbs or fighters imo. (At high levels anyway. Low level paladins are uber.)

[Raithe]

I LOVE my paladin, but I have to admit, he's my most gimp character.


And I LOVE my fighter, I love tripping and stunning mobs while whipping around them using whirlwind attack and blinding them with radiance scimitars.

But I have to admit, he's my most gimp character. I have a paladin too.

I wonder which one of us is right?

[Kmnh]

Go farm SF pots.

[Raithe]

Stop being lazy and go farm SF pots.

Funny thing, I think I have SF favor on everyone BUT my fighter... but that's ok because he was designed to use healing scrolls.

I'm not advocating an easy button for the sake of my gameplay. I enjoy my fighter much more right now and think he's fine. I'm advocating balance because it would make the game better for other fighters, and better for me when they join my group.

If it was MY fighter that joined my group, I would know what he could do and I'd be thrilled to have all the mobs lying prone on the ground... sadly I don't seem to run into my own fighter that much.

[Munkenmo]

And I LOVE my fighter, I love tripping and stunning mobs while whipping around them using whirlwind attack and blinding them with radiance scimitars.

But I have to admit, he's my most gimp character. I have a paladin too.

I wonder which one of us is right?

probably you if you're using radiance scimitars and have whirlwind.

after reading this, i've decided this whole thread boils down to you not knowing how to build a good toon.

[noinfo]

And I LOVE my fighter, I love tripping and stunning mobs while whipping around them using whirlwind attack and blinding them with radiance scimitars.

But I have to admit, he's my most gimp character. I have a paladin too.

I wonder which one of us is right?

General concensus is he is. There is no doubt your fighter is weaker than casters (divines and arcane) particulary in healing areas and this is more to do with their ease of access to it more then your lack of it.

The most I would go to is that the heal skill should actually get some use, and any administered healing (either via pots or whatever) based on a spell level 5 or lower is modified by a % equal to the heal skill. Rational being that higher level spells are more overwhelming and less reliant on knowing what is wrong and where to apply too.

[Raithe]

after reading this, i've decided this whole thread boils down to you not knowing how to build a good toon.

Insults are aginst the forum rules, especially if I'm the one that provides them, so I'll just quote your post as my base reply.

Whirlwind works great for blinding an entire group of mobs. Always has. Not sure what feat you would take instead (probably toughness, heh?), but I wouldn't trade it for much else. Yes, the dodge and mobility were fairly useless, but being able to avoid a ton of damage due to mobs being blinded while you skate past with Whirlwind was invaluable to my playstyle.

And now it does 4W damage too.

[sephiroth1084]

I'm addressing this issue because there have been numerous posts recently concerning the issue of fighter and barbarian self-healing. You may consider that other people may play the game in drastically different ways than you do.

Giving fighters and barbarians +45% healing amp doesn't really solve those issues.

Let's take a CSW pot. It's 3d8+5, average 24.5 (3d4+7.5+5). Now, let's say you care about your healing, so you have a 30% amp item, a 20% amp item, 3x paladin past lives, and have a Jorasco ship buff. That's 1.97 healing amp, and 24.5*1.97 = 48.3
Now let's add in a free 20%, for 2.36 amp, or 57.9 from a pot. Better, but still probably not sufficient for any real self-healing.
So let's add that additional 15%, for 2.71, or 66.4 from a pot. I'd say that this is still a little too low to provide sustainable self-healing, but makes chugging pots worthwhile.


As you can see, this both doesn't solve the problem and results in barbarians and fighters being strangely much easier to heal than any other melee besides monks, and about on par with monks, and for zero investment. That's not a solution.


What we need are pots that heal for a base of around 75-100 with no penalty. Silver Flame pots can cover the really big healing, and do.


This I agree with. Lets nerf everyone then... right? Nerfing healing amp would actually be a decent idea, but I don't expect that to get much support, nor get changed any time in the near future.




Just like you can point out that a fighter can splash paladin for saves, a DoS could splash fighter for healing amp. I think its amusing that this boils down to a discussion of tanks... cause I have yet to see a situation in the game where it wouldn't be better to simply use a melee Favored Soul with about 700 hp and who stacked DoTs while shield blocking. Wait for his aggro to cement, then have everyone attack. There's a huge difference between splashing 2 paladin and gaining Cha to saves, and splashing 2 fighter and gaining +2% healing amp. So much so, that the very idea of you using that as an argument simply serves to undermine any point or credibility you may have had here.


As for using a favored soul to tank...I know far fewer FvSs that are set-up to tank effectively than I know paladins, fighters, monks or barbarians built to do so. Additionally, that strategy is considerably slower in many cases, as you have a longer wait for DP to build up enough aggro to let everyone beat on whatever you're fighting, and most FvSs don't have the emergency back-up for aggro-swaps that is Intimidate. Also, if you're short-manning, or simply don't have another healer, something like a stun or trip will likely kill your FvS, and if you do have someone else healing the tank, why aren't you just using a better tank?



If we need a theme, its that Paladins are defense-oriented and -supposedly- take little damage while leading the charge, while fighters and barbs are grunts that take a lot of damage then have to heal afterwards. I had it mind, even tho I'm not sure we really need it.
None of that supports giving fighters and barbarians more healing amp.



Absolutely not. We need a boost to a couple of classes, we don't need favored souls soloing more raids.This is a fairly idiotic remark. Making better healing potions isn't suddenly going to make soloing content easier for favored souls, who already have access to quickened Heal and Heal scrolls. All it would do is cut down on Mnemonic usage, which is a fairly insignificant point when discussing ways to make melee classes more self-sufficient. If introducing better cure potions somehow unbalances casters more, that's a further indication that casters need to be reigned in (as if we needed more of an indication).

The fact that many of the favored soul achievements are performed by WF FvSs, who have rather poor healing amp only serves to illustrate how ludicrous your concern is.

[Munkenmo]

Insults are aginst the forum rules, especially if I'm the one that provides them, so I'll just quote your post as my base reply.

Whirlwind works great for blinding an entire group of mobs. Always has. Not sure what feat you would take instead (probably toughness, heh?), but I wouldn't trade it for much else. Yes, the dodge and mobility were fairly useless, but being able to avoid a ton of damage due to mobs being blinded while you skate past with Whirlwind was invaluable to my playstyle.

And now it does 4W damage too.

The best suggestion in this thread came from sephiroth. Stating that we need something between csw pots, and lesser silverflame pots.

Your response was that'd allow fvs to solo even more raids. Don't know about you, but when i'm soloing a raid on my fvs, I'm going to use a quickened heal over a pot animation every day of the week.

What I learned from your post, is that you're probably an elf, you've got 3 feats that give dodge bonuses for damage mitigation, but can't you utilise the defensive aspect of them without sacrificing PRR. You talk about the offensive property, yet cleave / greatcleave would be better.

You don't have healing amp because you didn't choose human or half elf, but you want it.

To that I say, go learn to make a good toon, and live with your choice, come back and cry about it when the devs break, nerf or change something.

[Raithe]

General concensus is he is.


Really... could you point me to the survey that shows those results?

Na, I actually know that most people don't like Paladins, mostly because they want them to be something they aren't - high DPS. I'd rather have a Paladin in my party any day of the week, though, and twice on Tuesdays (like today).




The most I would go to is that the heal skill should actually get some use, and any administered healing (either via pots or whatever) based on a spell level 5 or lower is modified by a % equal to the heal skill. Rational being that higher level spells are more overwhelming and less reliant on knowing what is wrong and where to apply too.

Might work for barbarians, but fighters don't get very many skill points unless they are human and already have human improved recovery.

Giving these 2 classes extra healing amp is hardly a stretch, especially since Human Improved Recovery was added to the game. It might have group dynamic consequences, as well, where the fighter and barb actually have some leverage against others for allowing them to take some aggro (and therefore get a few more kills). In groups full of casters and artificers the mobs drop like flies before a melee can even whack at them.

[Raithe]

Don't know about you, but when i'm soloing a raid on my fvs, I'm going to use a quickened heal over a pot animation every day of the week.


Until you run out of mana AND mana pots, that is. Then you'll probably decide to use a few of the new wonder-healing pots to finish up. Well, probably not you because you're so uber, but that OTHER favored soul who isn't nearly as talented at building (*snicker*) toons...



...yet cleave / greatcleave would be better...


Umm...no. I need to be able to hit everything around me, including things directly behind me as part of the gaming style. That's mostly what's it about... matching the feats to the overall style. If I'm concerned about being uber, I'll build a sorc.



You don't have healing amp because you didn't choose human or half elf, but you want it.


No, I have some healing amp. I also have some wand and scroll mastery. It's not really about MY fighter, like I said. From the sounds of it, its probably about yours...



...go learn to make a good toon...


And you think that's a fighter? Like I said, if I was concerned about being uber I'd build a sorc, very easy to self-heal and instakill and blow things away with a few keystrokes.

Might be nice to repair a few warforged melee that have a purpose while I'm at it, though, I like diversity.

[Raithe]

this both doesn't solve the problem and results in barbarians and fighters being strangely much easier to heal than any other melee besides monks, and about on par with monks, and for zero investment.


Some people are putting monk as their "most powerful" class choice. This thread is about balance, and if you are against balance I guess you can state it here, but it might be better to do it in a less round-about manner. Making barbarians and fighters as heal-worthy as a monk would be a significant step in the right direction.

It is a solution.



There's a huge difference between splashing 2 paladin and gaining Cha to saves, and splashing 2 fighter and gaining +2% healing amp.


You also gain 2 feats, as I'm sure you know a lot of paladins have done in the past. DO I think its worth losing the extra caster levels, spell points, and capstone? No, I don't. But once again this is about balance. The fact that I'm NOT WILLING TO trade paladin levels for fighter ones (even with 2% healing amp and feats) is a good sign that taking 2 levels of paladin is overpowered, while taking 2 levels of fighter isn't so much...



Making better healing potions isn't suddenly going to make soloing content easier for favored souls, who already have access to quickened Heal and Heal scrolls.


This is the remark I'd label as idiotic. OF COURSE it would make soloing content easier. You basically want scrolls in pot form. Pots don't have concentration checks. They can be quaffed on a separate cooldown from scrolls... need I go on?

I already know your trollish nature, Sephiroth, so I won't be responding again.

[Munkenmo]

Until you run out of mana AND mana pots, that is. Then you'll probably decide to use a few of the new wonder-healing pots to finish up. Well, probably not you because you're so uber, but that OTHER favored soul who isn't nearly as talented at building (*snicker*) toons...

Really? this is why you think healing pots will help fvs solo? wow...



Umm...no. I need to be able to hit everything around me, including things directly behind me as part of the gaming style. That's mostly what's it about... matching the feats to the overall style. If I'm concerned about being uber, I'll build a sorc.

It's great if that's how your style works for you, personally, I'd rather have the utility of two seperate arcing attacks, and a free feat since, likely we both have power attack anyway. Your style however has led you here asking for a boost to your class..



No, I have some healing amp. I also have some wand and scroll mastery. It's not really about MY fighter, like I said. From the sounds of it, its probably about yours...

My fighter used to be a w/f pure 20 fighter. Like you I found the healing to be problematic. I tr'ed into a 12f/6p/2r now i've got enough umd to heal as needed when needed.
I do however do a lot less dps than i did as a pure 20 fighter, it's a tradeoff, it's one I, and others feel is justified.
I'm not ashamed to show off my fighter either here (http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/nagol/)



And you think that's a fighter? Like I said, if I was concerned about being uber I'd build a sorc,

It's obvious you don't care about being uber.

[CaptainSpacePony]

The best suggestion in this thread came from sephiroth.

...because he's a DDO genius.

[sephiroth1084]

Some people are putting monk as their "most powerful" class choice. This thread is about balance, and if you are against balance I guess you can state it here, but it might be better to do it in a less round-about manner. Making barbarians and fighters as heal-worthy as a monk would be a significant step in the right direction.
What balance? Balance between fighters and favored souls? Healing amp isn't going to solve that. There's a lot more going on than monks simply having better healing amp, and this doesn't address any of those, while unnecessarily surging fighters and barbarians ahead of all other melee in healability without justification, and still doesn't actually make them much better at taking care of themselves.

It is a solution.

I already showed you how it isn't. Quaffing 50 HP pots isn't a solution. 75 would be approaching real usefulness at level 20 (not even talking about 25 here), but isn't quite there. How many people use Lesser SF pots instead of SF pots in any case except when they need to keep moving quickly? Lessers heal for 100 a pop before amp, and they are at just about the right strength for being useful without being super-strong.


Meanwhile, how many FvS do you see quaffing LSF pots? You don't really need stats at all when Blade Barrier and DP kiting, yet I don't see them chugging those down anywhere. Do you?


You also gain 2 feats, as I'm sure you know a lot of paladins have done in the past. DO I think its worth losing the extra caster levels, spell points, and capstone? No, I don't. But once again this is about balance. The fact that I'm NOT WILLING TO trade paladin levels for fighter ones (even with 2% healing amp and feats) is a good sign that taking 2 levels of paladin is overpowered, while taking 2 levels of fighter isn't so much...
My ONLY point was that you cannot compare splashing 2 paladin for Cha to saves to splashing 2 fighter for 2% healing amp, which is what you were doing, or trying to do. 2% amp is too insignificant to be considered as anything more than a minor bonus if you were going to splash anyway. [/quote]



This is the remark I'd label as idiotic. OF COURSE it would make soloing content easier. You basically want scrolls in pot form. Pots don't have concentration checks. They can be quaffed on a separate cooldown from scrolls... need I go on? Again, they aren't sucking down SF pots now, so why would they be falling back on stronger-than-CSW pots? Favored souls who aren't geared and itemized enough to deal with the constraints of a limited mana bar aren't out soloing difficult content, like raids. If you don't have a sizable stack of Mnemonics, and probably a Torc as well, you aren't soloing stuff of any real consequence, so it comes down to undergeared players getting a slight boost in ability by gaining access to stronger potions, or well-geared players choosing between drinking a pot for a chunk of SP, or drinking a pot for a chunk of HP. If you're pinching pennies, why are you soloing tough content? If you aren't, drinking the mana is far more valuable than drinking the HP.



I already know your trollish nature, Sephiroth, so I won't be responding again.You can dismiss me as being a troll if you want, but that still doesn't make you right, or render your suggestion any more valuable than it was before, which is to say, it was of no real value.

The best suggestion in this thread came from sephiroth.

...because he's a DDO genius.
Heh, thanks. :cool:


If there were enough concern that stronger HP potions would prove too potent in the hands of casters who are already able to easily heal themselves (I don't subscribe to this notion), new HP pots could cause a penalty to spell casting or drain SP. That would make them unattractive to anyone with a blue bar who would be casting often. That said, I dislike how that would impact rangers and paladins, who could also really use better HP potions. Still, it's a better solution than the OP's.

[Talias006]

You may consider that other people may play the game in drastically different ways than you do.

True.


Insults are aginst the forum rules, especially if I'm the one that provides them, so I'll just quote your post as my base reply.

Except when you break the rules you purportedly post by here:


(probably toughness, heh?)

And here:


Well, probably not you because you're so uber, but that OTHER favored soul who isn't nearly as talented at building (*snicker*) toons...

The last one is worse because you insult yourself.
Or better if you're just beating others to the punch.

Those things aside, I don't see the merit in this suggestion.
If your point is to make offensive melee more defensive, what would you do to make defensive melee more offensive?
Not sure if I want to know.

[Raithe]

Those things aside, I don't see the merit in this suggestion.


:rolleyes: Ah, ok.



If your point is to make offensive melee more defensive,...


Nope. It's to make gimp classes less gimp.



what would you do to make defensive melee more offensive?


Not a single thing. They got boosted in their "defense" by spellpower changes, by destinies that work off the higher spellpower that they have (and the gimps don't), and by changes in Update 9 that drastically lowered costs for them.

I appreciate all the peanuts from the gallery, but the bottom line is that a dev is either going to look at this, or they aren't, and they are either going to contemplate it, or they aren't, and they'll decide it's a good idea, or they won't. By posting you are just making the thread stick closer to the top of the pile and improving the chances of any of those things happening.

I did this merely as an academic exercise, because I was concerned with the balance of the game and felt that other people whose thread I invaded had some valid concerns and issues. So keep posting if you want, I'm officially out...

[Havok.cry]

I have soloed at level elite raids on a fighter, with very little heal amp. What is your fighter's problem?

[Uska]

Only if it costs an optional feat

[Uska]

No, that is exactly what we DON'T need. I have addressed this. This is not for my own personal use, the suggestion is for balancing purposes. Having a cure serious wounds pot do 33 pts of repair instead of 25 (for a level 20 barb) is not going to tip the scales much. It takes my cleric, my bard, or my ranger to intervene to make the ability come to full use.



True, and this would amplify those ways. Healing Spring and Fury of the Wild Fast Healing work great on my ranger... but they may need a bit more umph on a barb, especially if he doesn't have 120 devotion spellpower.

It's not balancing its very unbalancing PERIOD.

[Uska]

nvm

[Uska]

Some people are putting monk as their "most powerful" class choice. This thread is about balance, and if you are against balance I guess you can state it here, but it might be better to do it in a less round-about manner. Making barbarians and fighters as heal-worthy as a monk would be a significant step in the right direction.

It is a solution.



You also gain 2 feats, as I'm sure you know a lot of paladins have done in the past. DO I think its worth losing the extra caster levels, spell points, and capstone? No, I don't. But once again this is about balance. The fact that I'm NOT WILLING TO trade paladin levels for fighter ones (even with 2% healing amp and feats) is a good sign that taking 2 levels of paladin is overpowered, while taking 2 levels of fighter isn't so much...



This is the remark I'd label as idiotic. OF COURSE it would make soloing content easier. You basically want scrolls in pot form. Pots don't have concentration checks. They can be quaffed on a separate cooldown from scrolls... need I go on?

I already know your trollish nature, Sephiroth, so I won't be responding again.

Fighters and barbs are balanced they do good dps and need help with healing

[Uska]

:rolleyes: Ah, ok.



Nope. It's to make gimp classes less gimp.



Not a single thing. They got boosted in their "defense" by spellpower changes, by destinies that work off the higher spellpower that they have (and the gimps don't), and by changes in Update 9 that drastically lowered costs for them.

I appreciate all the peanuts from the gallery, but the bottom line is that a dev is either going to look at this, or they aren't, and they are either going to contemplate it, or they aren't, and they'll decide it's a good idea, or they won't. By posting you are just making the thread stick closer to the top of the pile and improving the chances of any of those things happening.

I did this merely as an academic exercise, because I was concerned with the balance of the game and felt that other people whose thread I invaded had some valid concerns and issues. So keep posting if you want, I'm officially out...


So you start losing the arguement and you take your ball and go home:rolleyes:

[Ralmeth]

No for two reasons:
1) Classes such as Paladins, or multiclassing is about giving up DPS in order to add something else to their character (ex. self-healing). This suggestion seems like you want a full-DPS character to have cake and eat it too...which isn't fair to every other class and is the opposite of addressing game balance.
2) As DDO is based on D&D, Fighters and Barbarians never had special abilities that allowed them to heal or regenerate better, so I don't see any reason for this.