View Full Version : I Dream of Jeets... ***?
jwdaniels
08-14-2012, 10:44 AM
So I and a bunch of guildies (a cleric, a barbarian, a rogue, a fighter with rogue splash and my monk) were running Inspired Quarter quests last night to try and get the last experience needed to hit 20. While running Dream Conspiracy and Find the Path, we noticed that the quests were a significantly harder than we remembered them, but other than every opponent taking longer to kill (outside of instakills) it really wasn't too bad. Then we hit I Dream of Jeets...
The spiders are all challenge rating 29 - basically making them epic level trash opponents - and come in large groups. Even more annoying are the incorporeal challenge rating 29 opponents which seem to have a much greater than 50% miss chance associated with them. The bosses in each of the mirrors were, ironically, significantly easier to deal with than the swarms of epic trash that accompanied them.
Despite the hassles involved in coins, bottles and steam, the real kick in the backside was the final battle. Two Super Egos (red-named Challenge Rating 30 opponents) and a Jeets (an orange named) plus a whole bunch of little egos (Challenge Rating 29 opponents that respawn and cast chain lightning when they form) running around healing the Damsel? This whole quest chain seemed so completely broken the entire time we were running it.
If you're going to crank up the difficulty of a quest that much, at least crank up the experience that it gives or something. If you're going to make the high-level quests epic difficulty, at least let our level 18/19 characters go into an actual epic level quest.
/rant
TL;DR: High level elite quests are broken, not fun and the reward is not worth the effort it takes to complete them.
Mathermune
08-14-2012, 10:53 AM
I dream of Jeets, lying mangled on the floor by my hand. Then I woke up :(
You get more base XP running Delera's part two than IDoJ. Level 17-19 XP is horrible.
Kaytis
08-14-2012, 10:58 AM
Totally agree. Update 14 made the heroic levels absolutely miserable to complete. I am so glad I finished my TRs and have started on epic levels, which by contrast are far easier. I have started enjoying the game again like I used to instead of being constantly worried that whatever run I am in is going to be yet another huge waste of time. I personally am not TR'ing again until heroic is fixed.
RabidKoala
08-14-2012, 11:00 AM
I agree that the quests are too hard, but iirc when you use the bacon in the end fight jeets inner id will help fight the egos and jeets.
munificence
08-14-2012, 11:09 AM
Yeah, these quests are way too difficult now for the xp reward. I am dreading the last million xp of my current life...
jwdaniels
08-14-2012, 11:09 AM
I agree that the quests are too hard, but iirc when you use the bacon in the end fight jeets inner id will help fight the egos and jeets.
This still works - we had and used the bacon. His Id distracted one of the Super Egos long enough for us to get the Damsel down to about 15% health or so (while our Xoriat creatures distracted the rest of the trash) but it was at about that time that the Damsel started healing at the same pace we were damaging her. It actually seemed like all the little egos were running around healing her somehow. I don't remember them doing that before.
Ayyelos
08-14-2012, 12:40 PM
Yeah I was surprised at how much more difficult that lasts fight seemed as well. It might have something to do with the spellpower changes?
In order to beat that thing two manned (clonk and wizard), we ran in, summoned the ID, and kept all those little guys crowd controlled with dancing balls and holds. Seemed to give us enough time to get triple dots up on the damsel which got past the ridiculous healing that chick gets from them.
But yeah, I hear ya, that last fight is certainly harder than it used to be.
HunterjWizzard
08-14-2012, 12:47 PM
The quests in that chain tend to bug up. Me and a guildie were running The Mindsunderer repeatedly for loot(trying to get us some Lucid Dreams) and this was on casual, an 18 cleric and a 16 artificer, with hirelings, summons, and dog. About half the time we'd blaze through the entire thing without hardly slowing down. Sometimes it'd be a bit of a challenge. The rest of the time the red nameds would heal themselves with ridiculous speed(faster than a human-operated cleric can) and way too fast to acually take down.
We basically had to drop, reform the party, and start over. And then it'd get easy again.
karsion
08-14-2012, 01:00 PM
So I and a bunch of guildies (a cleric, a barbarian, a rogue, a fighter with rogue splash and my monk) were running Inspired Quarter quests last night to try and get the last experience needed to hit 20. While running Dream Conspiracy and Find the Path, we noticed that the quests were a significantly harder than we remembered them, but other than every opponent taking longer to kill (outside of instakills) it really wasn't too bad. Then we hit I Dream of Jeets...
The spiders are all challenge rating 29 - basically making them epic level trash opponents - and come in large groups. Even more annoying are the incorporeal challenge rating 29 opponents which seem to have a much greater than 50% miss chance associated with them. The bosses in each of the mirrors were, ironically, significantly easier to deal with than the swarms of epic trash that accompanied them.
Despite the hassles involved in coins, bottles and steam, the real kick in the backside was the final battle. Two Super Egos (red-named Challenge Rating 30 opponents) and a Jeets (an orange named) plus a whole bunch of little egos (Challenge Rating 29 opponents that respawn and cast chain lightning when they form) running around healing the Damsel? This whole quest chain seemed so completely broken the entire time we were running it.
If you're going to crank up the difficulty of a quest that much, at least crank up the experience that it gives or something. If you're going to make the high-level quests epic difficulty, at least let our level 18/19 characters go into an actual epic level quest.
/rant
TL;DR: High level elite quests are broken, not fun and the reward is not worth the effort it takes to complete them.
Just want to preface my response with saying I am not a powergamer.
That being said I do not agree with most of your points. Yes, that quest is difficult but it is level 17 quest(19 on elite) so yeah it should be hard. I have run both Running with the Devils and I Dream of Jeets with a good group and was able to complete. Theye were tough as hell (Running even more so than Jeets) but the feeling of accomplishment was immense.
With that of the way I have to agree that it is kinda silly now with Elite heroic being usually much more rough than epic. But then again epic has no longer anything to do with the difficulty so whatever.
Oh and spell damage fropm mobs is still out of whack. Rayium is spamming 300+ damage disintegrates, gnolls in Ritual can hit for up to 500 and don't even start me on ghaeles. If you menage to survive and prevail it is however a pure joy.
And last point: the xp rewards has been discussed many times and sadly devs are not doing anything about it. It is especially aggravating at levels 17-20 where quests can take over an hour and give around 20k which is laughable when you compare it to let's say Shadow Crypt whic can be done in under 10 minutes.
Llewndyn
08-14-2012, 01:02 PM
So I and a bunch of guildies (a cleric, a barbarian, a rogue, a fighter with rogue splash and my monk) were running Inspired Quarter quests last night to try and get the last experience needed to hit 20. While running Dream Conspiracy and Find the Path, we noticed that the quests were a significantly harder than we remembered them, but other than every opponent taking longer to kill (outside of instakills) it really wasn't too bad. Then we hit I Dream of Jeets...
The spiders are all challenge rating 29 - basically making them epic level trash opponents - and come in large groups. Even more annoying are the incorporeal challenge rating 29 opponents which seem to have a much greater than 50% miss chance associated with them. The bosses in each of the mirrors were, ironically, significantly easier to deal with than the swarms of epic trash that accompanied them.
Despite the hassles involved in coins, bottles and steam, the real kick in the backside was the final battle. Two Super Egos (red-named Challenge Rating 30 opponents) and a Jeets (an orange named) plus a whole bunch of little egos (Challenge Rating 29 opponents that respawn and cast chain lightning when they form) running around healing the Damsel? This whole quest chain seemed so completely broken the entire time we were running it.
If you're going to crank up the difficulty of a quest that much, at least crank up the experience that it gives or something. If you're going to make the high-level quests epic difficulty, at least let our level 18/19 characters go into an actual epic level quest.
/rant
TL;DR: High level elite quests are broken, not fun and the reward is not worth the effort it takes to complete them.
That cancels out all the bad, right?
Shade
08-14-2012, 01:24 PM
I don't see any specific changes in that quest.
The CRs are the same, It was always quite hard.
Only change was the increase of maximize and empower to much higher lvls. Since the end fight was essentially mainly caster mobs, i can see it being quite a bit more difficult due to that. (+50% dmg on max and +25% on emp and really add a lot of dmg).
I think since these posts keep coming up everywhere the best solution is:
Return maxmimize and empower to their U13 lvls so elite mobs that have em stop crushing ppl that want to steam roll elite..
To compensate the players, increase the base amount of spell power sorcerers, wizards and bards get up some.
PS: The quest is 20 on elite, which by turbines definition IS Epic anyways. Pretty much any epic elite quest youll encounter a similar challenge, I hope not to see more complaints. Just gear up and take the challenge, its the maximum difficulty mode for crying out loud, if you ask for it to nerf, you are ruining the experience of players who like a challenge because thers no where else for them to go.
Qhualor
08-14-2012, 01:37 PM
i ran elite IQ not long ago on my last life and didnt notice any changes. i was in some decent pug groups and, other than a couple deaths, found them to be just as challenging as any other time ive ever done those quests on elite.
you may not like the xp, than there are other quests to run. even some bad groups ive been in were able to complete and ive never seen any fails. i dont really see a need to make any changes in IQ.
Ranncore
08-14-2012, 01:41 PM
That traps hit HARD in there, and, like all DDO traps, the visual area doesn't correspond to the danger area.
Anyways, I have to agree with an above poster on this one - the only thing broken with this quest is the XP rewarded.
Missing_Minds
08-14-2012, 01:46 PM
That traps hit HARD in there, and, like all DDO traps, the visual area doesn't correspond to the danger area.
Anyways, I have to agree with an above poster on this one - the only thing broken with this quest is the XP rewarded.
Traps have ALWAYS hit hard in there.
Stormraiser
08-14-2012, 01:56 PM
This still works - we had and used the bacon. His Id distracted one of the Super Egos long enough for us to get the Damsel down to about 15% health or so (while our Xoriat creatures distracted the rest of the trash) but it was at about that time that the Damsel started healing at the same pace we were damaging her. It actually seemed like all the little egos were running around healing her somehow. I don't remember them doing that before.
I encounted the same issue, a friend and I duo'ed Elite IDOJ (I was on a barbarian, making it very rough) and in the end fight, he was kiting the trash while I was just smashing on Damsel. Got her down to about 15% and then she kept healing. About 5 minutes of auto attack later, she must have run out of mana and died promptly.
LightBear
08-14-2012, 02:05 PM
As far as I can tell the Damsel heals much faster and for more then she used to. I never noticed the mini Jeets to cast chain lightning before, maybe that was because they didn't hit for all that much damage before?
I don't even dare to go on an Elite of the following quest anymore:
- Delirium;
- Acute Delirium;
- In the Flesh;
- The Dreaming Dark;
- Servants of the Overlords;
- Enter the Kobold.
They all ready used to be to hard before update 14 but now it's just not doable.
The xp awarded for those quests are just :(
Edit:
It's isn't just these quest by them selfs, them being not completable on Elite makes the rest of the chain unaccessible unless you want to break your streak (and no one wants that).
simo0208
08-14-2012, 02:46 PM
In the Flesh is challenging but just fine. Did it last life with 5 people at level on elite. You just need to know how to do the end fight properly (strategy? Omg NO!)
Enter the Kobold on elite is insanely hard, but completed it last life with lots and lots of deaths in the end fight only. Not enough evasion. The quest was worth some pretty good xp though (35k without a pot - but with the current bonus xp). It took us 72 minutes to complete though, so it wasn't great xp/min.
Servant of the Overlord I did on elite a few times now. Haven't noticed too much of an issue as long as people are smart. I avoid the optionals as necessary in there on elite. Lots of shrines, have a d-door along and it works out ok. End fight is really long and quite a drain though.
MRMechMan
08-14-2012, 02:48 PM
Return maxmimize and empower to their U13 lvls so elite mobs that have em stop crushing ppl that want to steam roll elite..
To compensate the players, increase the base amount of spell power sorcerers, wizards and bards get up some.
.
What? Players can get spellpower items/enhancements, and so maximize and empower do less than before. Many builds are dropping empower because with ANY kind of gear/build that is decent, it does much, much less than it did before, and is always inefficient for non-inherent abilities.
At level 10-15 unmetaed repair serious hits for ~55-60, and max/emped it is around 110-120.
Forgive me if I use some math:
Spellpower no max/emp: 100enh+90 item+20clickie+15implement=225spellpower. 3.25x damage
Max+emped=150+75 on top of that, so 450. 5.5x damage.
Basically, the better geared you are, the less useful max/empower are.
Before max and empower just did a straight DOUBLE everything else. Now, with everything working on the base, they are both much worse feats; I am sure anyone with basic addition and multiplication skills would be thrilled to have max/emp go back to pre U14 values, as the damage would be insane for PCs, regardless of giving them extra spellpower like you suggest.
For mobs that cannot get spellpower except from max/emp, yes, those feats are doing more than they used to do. But the break even point for max/emp pre U14 and U14 is very low, and does not take much gear/enh to achieve.
The biggest factor is not spellpower or feats at all. It is the fact that elite quests are scaling incredibly more than they ever have in the past.
Ivan_Milic
08-14-2012, 02:52 PM
This still works - we had and used the bacon. His Id distracted one of the Super Egos long enough for us to get the Damsel down to about 15% health or so (while our Xoriat creatures distracted the rest of the trash) but it was at about that time that the Damsel started healing at the same pace we were damaging her. It actually seemed like all the little egos were running around healing her somehow. I don't remember them doing that before.
Same thing happened when I did it too,Damsel to 15% and not going down more.
We finished after we reentered.
Ivan_Milic
08-14-2012, 02:54 PM
I don't see any specific changes in that quest.
The CRs are the same, It was always quite hard.
Only change was the increase of maximize and empower to much higher lvls. Since the end fight was essentially mainly caster mobs, i can see it being quite a bit more difficult due to that. (+50% dmg on max and +25% on emp and really add a lot of dmg).
I think since these posts keep coming up everywhere the best solution is:
Return maxmimize and empower to their U13 lvls so elite mobs that have em stop crushing ppl that want to steam roll elite..
To compensate the players, increase the base amount of spell power sorcerers, wizards and bards get up some.
PS: The quest is 20 on elite, which by turbines definition IS Epic anyways. Pretty much any epic elite quest youll encounter a similar challenge, I hope not to see more complaints. Just gear up and take the challenge, its the maximum difficulty mode for crying out loud, if you ask for it to nerf, you are ruining the experience of players who like a challenge because thers no where else for them to go.
Lol,the quest isnt hard or challenging,the only thing challenging is Damsel getting to about 15-20% and doesnt want to go down more than that.
Qhualor
08-14-2012, 03:49 PM
As far as I can tell the Damsel heals much faster and for more then she used to. I never noticed the mini Jeets to cast chain lightning before, maybe that was because they didn't hit for all that much damage before?
I don't even dare to go on an Elite of the following quest anymore:
- Delirium;
- Acute Delirium;
- In the Flesh;
- The Dreaming Dark;
- Servants of the Overlords;
- Enter the Kobold.
They all ready used to be to hard before update 14 but now it's just not doable.
The xp awarded for those quests are just :(
Edit:
It's isn't just these quest by them selfs, them being not completable on Elite makes the rest of the chain unaccessible unless you want to break your streak (and no one wants that).
Delirium isnt really that bad for me. Ill join pug groups for that and can usually expect a few deaths.
Acute delirium i wont touch with a ten foot pole on elite.
In the flesh is not bad for me but i wont do it on elite because of the end fight. Too bad too because the xp is really good.
I have never don DD on elite. Ive also only done the quest twice ever. Once with a group on norm and once i soloed on norm.
Ive soloed servants on hard and theres a big difference on elite. Since changes were made to the difficulty of the quest, ive been successful in every pug group on elite.
Etk is difficult on elite, unless you have a good healer, caster and at least one evasion dps. I can usually expect a couple deaths, but ive been a part of some pug groups that have been successful 90% of the time.
With bb, most of those quests give very good xp on elite, especially with greater tome and voice.
jwdaniels
08-14-2012, 04:38 PM
To respond to some of the posts in this thread -
This same group had absolutely no problems with elite Running with the Devils this past weekend. We completed the quest with no deaths. We also completed Enter the Kobold on elite with the expected deaths to non-evasion characters in the last fight, but it never seemed difficult or in doubt at any point.
I've also run this chain on elite many times in the past (I got a Terror and a Quorforged Docent of Battle the hard way, before the third completion reward list was implemented) and it was never that difficult - not even close.
As long as I'm ranting... What's up with Nurse Ratchet in Sane Asylum? I would expect her spells to hit harder due to spell power changes, but when did she get the ability to teleport up to us and attack before we jumped down?
Adken
08-14-2012, 05:46 PM
Have you tried charming the caster egos? When I tried to solo that quest it was pretty hard, until I thought about that. With the two caster egos charmed and your group attacking the lady, it should be easier to complete :)
danotmano1998
08-14-2012, 06:03 PM
You get more base XP running Delera's part two than IDoJ. Level 17-19 XP is horrible.
Isn't that awesome?
And for some reason... The dev's don't comment on this.
Even if there are 3 billion posts about it.
It's kind of like the elephant in the room.
It's there, we all KNOW it's there, but they just won't comment on it.
Mathermune
08-14-2012, 06:34 PM
Isn't that awesome?
And for some reason... The dev's don't comment on this.
Even if there are 3 billion posts about it.
It's kind of like the elephant in the room.
It's there, we all KNOW it's there, but they just won't comment on it.
We should be careful not to point at it too much, it might result in an "adjustment" of the base xp to "provide more reasonable xp/min"
:p
LightBear
08-14-2012, 07:18 PM
To respond to some of the posts in this thread -
This same group had absolutely no problems with elite Running with the Devils this past weekend. We completed the quest with no deaths. We also completed Enter the Kobold on elite with the expected deaths to non-evasion characters in the last fight, but it never seemed difficult or in doubt at any point.
I've also run this chain on elite many times in the past (I got a Terror and a Quorforged Docent of Battle the hard way, before the third completion reward list was implemented) and it was never that difficult - not even close.
As long as I'm ranting... What's up with Nurse Ratchet in Sane Asylum? I would expect her spells to hit harder due to spell power changes, but when did she get the ability to teleport up to us and attack before we jumped down?
Running with the devils should be on my list of pain in the ass quest to do on elite as well.
I had some very weird experiences in there:
A couple (four I think) of pugs where a total failure.
One pug was a success due to play style and well coordination.
I also was invited into a steady group (not a pug, except for me) and they where able to go through it much faster.
And on that Nurse Ratched thing: If you stand on the edge to long she will notice you standing there and beam herself up. This is not an update 14 thing.
Ranncore
08-14-2012, 07:27 PM
About the easy to get xp at low lvls but not at 17-20 -
I think this is because the intent was to make it easier to get through the lower levels, but harder to get through the high levels. But since they couldn't think of interesting ways to make the quests more challenging, they just made the XP so low that it would take longer. And now that the "high levels," aren't the highest levels in the game anymore, it was probably just plain oversight to not adjust those quest's XP. Turbine probably just made the change without regard to the implications on the affects of old content and players sitting at what used to be end-game. Very shortsighted, but since all of MOTU has that rushed-through-development feel, I'm not surprised.
Should the base XP of quests at levels 17-20 be adjusted to reflect the changes to end game? Yes.
Will they be? Probably not. Not until there's a way to make money off it.
Which is interesting, because when the nerf to Challenge XP happened, the devs said that that was one of the things that could be adjusted "on the fly." The devs have also since then said that they will be readjusting those XP multipliers to a more reasonable level (again).
So, why haven't they yet?
Probably because if it doesn't have to do with purchasing new content, they just don't care.
I would bet that the only XP "fix" for these levels that we will see is a new range of purchasable consumables.
An arcane makes all the difference on that end fight. Still can be one heck of a fight on elite. Those quests should have a massive XP boost if they want to leave the difficulty alone.
Are their systems so borked that they can't adjust XP on quests? It would take someone who actually knows and plays the game surely one or two of the people in charge have characters. Then again they would likely screw that up.
Ranncore
08-14-2012, 07:52 PM
Then again they would likely screw that up.
That's part of the issue here. Right now your safest bet as a player is to stay at level cap, focus on only the newest update, and cross your fingers that your loot and abilities don't get broken or nerfed with the next update.
Qhualor
08-14-2012, 08:15 PM
About the easy to get xp at low lvls but not at 17-20 -
I think this is because the intent was to make it easier to get through the lower levels, but harder to get through the high levels. But since they couldn't think of interesting ways to make the quests more challenging, they just made the XP so low that it would take longer. And now that the "high levels," aren't the highest levels in the game anymore, it was probably just plain oversight to not adjust those quest's XP. Turbine probably just made the change without regard to the implications on the affects of old content and players sitting at what used to be end-game. Very shortsighted, but since all of MOTU has that rushed-through-development feel, I'm not surprised.
Should the base XP of quests at levels 17-20 be adjusted to reflect the changes to end game? Yes.
Will they be? Probably not. Not until there's a way to make money off it.
Which is interesting, because when the nerf to Challenge XP happened, the devs said that that was one of the things that could be adjusted "on the fly." The devs have also since then said that they will be readjusting those XP multipliers to a more reasonable level (again).
So, why haven't they yet?
Probably because if it doesn't have to do with purchasing new content, they just don't care.
I would bet that the only XP "fix" for these levels that we will see is a new range of purchasable consumables.
actually, depends on the high levels.
reavers refuge gives great xp and can be done pretty quick, unless you stop for trap xp in monastery and the puzzler has a tough time.
tod flagging quests give great xp. a good group can breeze through them. a new invasion can be expected to take an hour, especially if you get prisoners and cant find the holes too easily. the end fight isnt usually done on elite, but many will try and usually fail. wrath of the flame isnt really good, but can be done fast. weapons shipment isnt too bad and everybody loves baubles.
IQ has decent xp and can be breezed through with a decent group. not uncommon to do most of the quests, including the island in 5-10 minute runs.
of course, this is all dependent on how good the group is, solo and how much flower sniffing you do.
Ranncore
08-14-2012, 08:53 PM
reavers refuge gives great xp
tod flagging quests give great xp.
IQ
base XP for ALL path of inspiration quests = 2-4k (pathetically low)
base XP for ALL Dreaming Dark quests = 2-4k (pathetically low)
amrath quests range from base xp of 3k (wrath of the flame) to as high as 9k for A New Invasion (as you said, considering the time it takes... pathetically low)
even ToD itself is base xp 11k
VoN 3 - 13k
Shadow Crypt - 11k
reavers refuge is the only pack that stands a chance, but all of those quests are extremely annoying (to me)
a boss you have to kite in a mission with a super annoying lag-jet-stream-puzzle-thing
protect the dragon after you get through that annoying maze
fight rubberbanding living spells in a hallway that leads to a lava pit where countless elementals spawn
no thanks, none of it. might have been worth it before DT was nerfed.
base XP for Reavers ranges from 6-9k.
Clearly, there is a problem here.
simo0208
08-14-2012, 10:35 PM
Try doing shadow crypt without the walk through up and see if you think "more quests should be like shadow crypt." That quest was an utter disaster when it first came out, taking hours to do in some cases. The xp doesn't sound so good then does it?
Von 3 on elite was a huge challenge when it first came out. Remember, the level cap was TEN. It was end game content at the time. And there was an xp penalty when you died. Raise your hand if you've died in Von3 before?
These arguments are logical falicies at best. They seem ok on the surface, but fail when looked at for anything other than surface value.
If anything, given the route DDO has been going in regards to xp/min being too high, DDO is more likely to reduce the xp gained from shadow crypt, von 3, and some of the others to "put them in line with other quests of that level." So thanks for pointing that out to them. Now go eat a cookie or something.
Ranncore
08-14-2012, 11:10 PM
Sim - your arguments only illustrate that Turbine has not made necessary retroactive adjustments to experience rewards as level caps have been moved. The XP for quests needs to be adjusted. I'd rather they were adjusted in favor of the players, but that's up to Turbine. Put your faith in them to do what's best, I guess.
sirgog
08-14-2012, 11:11 PM
As far as I can tell the Damsel heals much faster and for more then she used to. I never noticed the mini Jeets to cast chain lightning before, maybe that was because they didn't hit for all that much damage before?
I don't even dare to go on an Elite of the following quest anymore:
- Delirium;
- Acute Delirium;
- In the Flesh;
- The Dreaming Dark;
- Servants of the Overlords;
- Enter the Kobold.
They all ready used to be to hard before update 14 but now it's just not doable.
The xp awarded for those quests are just :(
Edit:
It's isn't just these quest by them selfs, them being not completable on Elite makes the rest of the chain unaccessible unless you want to break your streak (and no one wants that).
Break the streak before it costs you any more XP.
Streaking at high level is showing off, pure and simple.
That said, I did solo elite SOTO and elite Spinner for bravery this life. Neither were that hard - 3 SP pots in SOTO (two of which I got back between chests and the end reward), no pots in Spinner. Actually I found Murder By Moonlight harder than both.
Rapthorn
08-14-2012, 11:36 PM
base XP for ALL path of inspiration quests = 2-4k (pathetically low)
base XP for ALL Dreaming Dark quests = 2-4k (pathetically low)
amrath quests range from base xp of 3k (wrath of the flame) to as high as 9k for A New Invasion (as you said, considering the time it takes... pathetically low)
even ToD itself is base xp 11k
VoN 3 - 13k
Shadow Crypt - 11k
reavers refuge is the only pack that stands a chance, but all of those quests are extremely annoying (to me)
a boss you have to kite in a mission with a super annoying lag-jet-stream-puzzle-thing
protect the dragon after you get through that annoying maze
fight rubberbanding living spells in a hallway that leads to a lava pit where countless elementals spawn
no thanks, none of it. might have been worth it before DT was nerfed.
base XP for Reavers ranges from 6-9k.
Clearly, there is a problem here.
Not trying to be sarcastic. What was the nerf to DT armor?
simo0208
08-15-2012, 12:09 AM
DT armor wasn't nerfed directly. It just didn't change from its old properties with the new armor that's been released (even random loot gen will be better from a protection standpoint, but probably not by effects).
Qhualor
08-15-2012, 12:13 AM
base XP for ALL path of inspiration quests = 2-4k (pathetically low)
base XP for ALL Dreaming Dark quests = 2-4k (pathetically low)
amrath quests range from base xp of 3k (wrath of the flame) to as high as 9k for A New Invasion (as you said, considering the time it takes... pathetically low)
even ToD itself is base xp 11k
VoN 3 - 13k
Shadow Crypt - 11k
reavers refuge is the only pack that stands a chance, but all of those quests are extremely annoying (to me)
a boss you have to kite in a mission with a super annoying lag-jet-stream-puzzle-thing
protect the dragon after you get through that annoying maze
fight rubberbanding living spells in a hallway that leads to a lava pit where countless elementals spawn
no thanks, none of it. might have been worth it before DT was nerfed.
base XP for Reavers ranges from 6-9k.
Clearly, there is a problem here.
you have to look beyond the base xp. even if you dont get max xp like ransack and conquest, with BB, ship buff xp shrine and voice (3 things commonly used while questing), you can get double the xp or more. the base xp is just if you dont add in all the xp boosts you can have and if you dont break enough barrels for even mischief.
also, when did DT armor get nerfed? nothing was changed. the armor has become less desirable now with better armor choices dropping from chests and higher level armor that is 20+.
Ranncore
08-15-2012, 12:15 AM
you have to look beyond the base xp. even if you dont get max xp like ransack and conquest, with BB, ship buff xp shrine and voice (3 things commonly used while questing), you can get double the xp or more. the base xp is just if you dont add in all the xp boosts you can have and if you dont break enough barrels for even mischief.
also, when did DT armor get nerfed? nothing was changed. the armor has become less desirable now with better armor choices dropping from chests and higher level armor that is 20+.
All of the quests get the same multipliers from those things - so the quests with higher base XP will always give more XP.
and DT armor did get nerfed, both in the fact that random lootgen armor has better AC/MDB and better properties, making the painful task of acquiring DT armor not worth the time, but also, and for divines specifically - 78 devotion spellpower? really?
Rapthorn
08-15-2012, 12:17 AM
DT armor wasn't nerfed directly. It just didn't change from its old properties with the new armor that's been released (even random loot gen will be better from a protection standpoint, but probably not by effects).
Thanks for the info. Yeah that sounds like an indirect nerf. This makes me sad as I had many different DT armors made up for my various lives on my completionist project. Gonna have to rethink a lot of things now... Fortunately most of them were robes but the ones that weren't... Doh.
Ranncore
08-15-2012, 12:26 AM
I assure you the nerf does not feel indirect for divines who built DT armor to complete the Lorriks set. +78 devotion spellpower on this armor is a slap in the face.
Qhualor
08-15-2012, 12:36 AM
All of the quests get the same multipliers from those things - so the quests with higher base XP will always give more XP.
and DT armor did get nerfed, both in the fact that random lootgen armor has better AC/MDB and better properties, making the painful task of acquiring DT armor not worth the time, but also, and for divines specifically - 78 devotion spellpower? really?
i think you are confused what a nerf is. a nerf would be the devs actually doing something to change the dt armor. the devs did no such thing and added new types of armors to the game. it made it so people had better choices for what to wear making the dt armor more obsolete. dt armor was considered one of the best armor to have before wearing epic armor. sadly, not so much anymore.
yes, the higher the base xp, the higher xp you can get. a lot of the higher level quests can be completed in 5-10 minutes which is why IQ and RR get farmed out so much because of the xp per minute. if people actually tried to maximize their xp when farming, they would get more. unfortunately, most groups think its a waste of time and would rather quickly farm out a quest and move on. this is why a change will never be made to those quests.
quests like von 3, deleras part 2, bloody crypt and all the other high xp quests have been around in this game for a very very long time. the game was different then and much harder and the level cap was lower.
you already have noticed the difference in xp compared to the newer quests. turbine realizes that we players are figuring quests out and getting stronger as time goes by. we can zerg through quests now and make the xp/min work for us instead of the long tough quests giving out 30k xp like they used to. the xp/min apparently is money for turbine.
DDOisFree
08-15-2012, 12:37 AM
Terrible thread based on complaints by incompetent players.
Mass hold / disco ball the egos, have the entire party kill the damsel.
P.S.. *DO NOT KILL* the egos, leave them CCed and they don't respawn or heal the damsel. She drops dead in like 10 seconds on elite difficulty.
Oh right, your wizard doesn't have mass hold or disco ball, and instead just spams meteor swarm / wail at everything in sight. That's why you lost.
The main reason why people complain about elite being too hard is because its their first time running said quest on elite. Up until BB and tomes of learning, people rarely ran these quests on elite and mostly farmed them on normal. Elite is meant to be ... ELITE! Not simple, casual, normal (exception being GH elites which are far too easy).
munificence
08-15-2012, 12:41 AM
Break the streak before it costs you any more XP.
Streaking at high level is showing off, pure and simple.
That said, I did solo elite SOTO and elite Spinner for bravery this life. Neither were that hard - 3 SP pots in SOTO (two of which I got back between chests and the end reward), no pots in Spinner. Actually I found Murder By Moonlight harder than both.
Yeah, I don't understand the mentality of people who won't break an elite streak, especially at level 17+. There's no award for having a big number in your Elite Streak box, and the bonus caps after 5 straight elite quests. No one is going to give you a cookie for getting a 500 quest elite streak, so let it go... heck, I can guarantee you're going to break it when you hit level 20 anyway, because no one is streaking in Epic Elite!
Ranncore
08-15-2012, 12:41 AM
a nerf would be the devs actually doing something to change the dt armor.
devotion. 78.
Qhualor
08-15-2012, 12:45 AM
devotion. 78.
that wasnt directed to dt armor alone. that change was across the board
Raithe
08-15-2012, 12:49 AM
that wasnt directed to dt armor alone. that change was across the board
They are wrong anyway. I'm looking at my DT light armor on my kensei, right now, and I know for a fact that it didn't have 11 base armor plus 11 max dex bonus before the update.
Yes, all robes are basically the same as before. If you are wearing robes, you are more vulnerable now.
Ranncore
08-15-2012, 12:49 AM
that wasnt directed to dt armor alone. that change was across the board
You must realize the futility of arguing that a change from superior devotion 8 to devotion spellpower 78 is not a nerf, right? There's no way to convince me that equipping a devotion spellpower 78 item gives me an equivalent boost to my healing spells as a superior devotion 8 item used to.
If they had given it a devotion bonus of, say, 110 I wouldn't have called it a nerf. It would just have been a change. I'd have even taken a 90, even considering that it requires 3 slots to function.
But.... 78?
Shade
08-15-2012, 12:55 AM
You must realize the futility of arguing that a change from superior devotion 8 to devotion spellpower 78 is not a nerf, right? There's no way to convince me that equipping a devotion spellpower 78 item gives me an equivalent boost to my healing spells as a superior devotion 8 item used to.
If they had given it a devotion bonus of, say, 110 I wouldn't have called it a nerf. It would just have been a change. I'd have even taken a 90, even considering that it requires 3 slots to function.
But.... 78?
I'd not try to convice you of that it gives "equivalent" I'd tell you it gives more.
Superior devotion 8: +50% damage on lvl8 and lower lvls
Devotion 78: +78% damage on all spells.
I think that would be enough to convince most ppl that it wasn't a nerf.
What was nerfed was the fact the heal spell doesn't get the full benefit from spell power. Radiant burst does, Radiant aura does. Other cures do, and hit hard. Not to mention the little old spell power affects scrolls/wands thing makes divines exceptionally powerful atm.
While I agree the hard to acquire items, especially multi part sets should of been relatively better then other gear by a larger magin then turbine selected, I dont see any logic in saying +28% increase in spell power is a "nerf".
Qhualor
08-15-2012, 12:56 AM
Yeah, I don't understand the mentality of people who won't break an elite streak, especially at level 17+. There's no award for having a big number in your Elite Streak box, and the bonus caps after 5 straight elite quests. No one is going to give you a cookie for getting a 500 quest elite streak, so let it go... heck, I can guarantee you're going to break it when you hit level 20 anyway, because no one is streaking in Epic Elite!
the mentality is that people dont want to start over, aside from bragging rights. i made a suggestion in another thread, if the quest is too difficult for you to do on elite, nothing wrong with doing hard or even normal. its not hard to pick up the streak again. people could even do a few crappy xp quests to get it back.
i always go back and forth with my streaks between 18 and 19. at 20+ i just quest like i used to before we had epic levels and xp. i still have the frame of mind that im doing epics for shards, scrolls, seals and tokens and not for xp.
oweieie
08-15-2012, 01:00 AM
Break the streak before it costs you any more XP.
Streaking at high level is showing off, pure and simple.
The higher level elites don't take any longer on elite than normal if you have a decent party or if you're on a caster life because solo you're a decent party. I've seen no reason to break my streak.
The high heroic level quest XP is dog**** anyway, people should have finished their TR before reaching them by holding levels like a miser. Gianthold with it's nerfed XP has better base XP on the walkups than the House C quests, which are 6 levels higher. Likewise the walkups and flagging quests have similiar or better XP than Shavarath side and flagging quests! TRs really want to be done and ready to TR again around finishing vale and farming out Monastery and Sane Asylum.
Qhualor
08-15-2012, 01:07 AM
They are wrong anyway. I'm looking at my DT light armor on my kensei, right now, and I know for a fact that it didn't have 11 base armor plus 11 max dex bonus before the update.
Yes, all robes are basically the same as before. If you are wearing robes, you are more vulnerable now.
no, thats right. even the wiki verifies that. i even checked the edited history and saw no change in the armor.
sirgog
08-15-2012, 01:17 AM
All of the quests get the same multipliers from those things - so the quests with higher base XP will always give more XP.
and DT armor did get nerfed, both in the fact that random lootgen armor has better AC/MDB and better properties, making the painful task of acquiring DT armor not worth the time, but also, and for divines specifically - 78 devotion spellpower? really?
So it went from the highest Devotion equippable at level 16 to - still the highest Devotion equippable at level 16. Oh and it works on Mass Heal now (the most important healing spell in the game) which it never did before. How on earth is that a nerf?
Of course the divine set is still not worth making, but it hasn't been worth making that set since the level cap was 16 and it was pretty marginal even then.
Also DT's above-average AC has just gone from totally worthless for 95% of characters to of some use, and MOTU's harder hitting monsters have made Healing Amplification and Radiance Guard both better.
Qhualor
08-15-2012, 01:19 AM
You must realize the futility of arguing that a change from superior devotion 8 to devotion spellpower 78 is not a nerf, right? There's no way to convince me that equipping a devotion spellpower 78 item gives me an equivalent boost to my healing spells as a superior devotion 8 item used to.
If they had given it a devotion bonus of, say, 110 I wouldn't have called it a nerf. It would just have been a change. I'd have even taken a 90, even considering that it requires 3 slots to function.
But.... 78?
actually im not going to try to convince of anything in what you just said. i know nothing about spellpower. all i know is that there is something called spellpower and its given a number and the higher the number, the better it is. as a matter of fact, since spellpower was first released, ive been on a tr train and havent paid no never mind to it. this life, shes a paladin and i know she has a 40 for devotion. that sounds low to me, but shes just a paladin until 20 than i wont have to worry about spellpower again because she will be a monk again.
now if you want to talk about something i do know, like dt armor, i can do that. like, a nerf to spellpower doesnt make the dt armor a nerf as a whole. you or anybody else can slot something totally different and the dt armor would still serve its purpose and still be a good armor.
Raithe
08-15-2012, 01:21 AM
no, thats right. even the wiki verifies that. i even checked the edited history and saw no change in the armor.
Umm...no. Wiki has DT plate at armor value 22...
That is, clearly, not what it was pre-update.
DT leather armor, if I recall correctly would have been studded leather (3) and +5 enhancement for 8, and I think 7 dex because it gave light armor +2 more than normal.
Machination
08-15-2012, 01:26 AM
There are four difficulty settings on this chain.
Which one were you playing?
I think its good they made elite more challenging on some heroic content. It was about time. Yes, on elite Jeets is a bit of a challenge now. You must have a plan. It is no longer a zerg on elite. I like that. I think its refreshing.
Normal, I don't think it is any more difficult than before U14, or should I say, maybe its a little more difficult but nothing that a lvl 19 character cannot handle.
I don't thing there should be any complaints about elite being too difficult right now on any heroic content. It was too easy before. And elite should be difficult, even for a legend build.
So I and a bunch of guildies (a cleric, a barbarian, a rogue, a fighter with rogue splash and my monk) were running Inspired Quarter quests last night to try and get the last experience needed to hit 20. While running Dream Conspiracy and Find the Path, we noticed that the quests were a significantly harder than we remembered them, but other than every opponent taking longer to kill (outside of instakills) it really wasn't too bad. Then we hit I Dream of Jeets...
The spiders are all challenge rating 29 - basically making them epic level trash opponents - and come in large groups. Even more annoying are the incorporeal challenge rating 29 opponents which seem to have a much greater than 50% miss chance associated with them. The bosses in each of the mirrors were, ironically, significantly easier to deal with than the swarms of epic trash that accompanied them.
Despite the hassles involved in coins, bottles and steam, the real kick in the backside was the final battle. Two Super Egos (red-named Challenge Rating 30 opponents) and a Jeets (an orange named) plus a whole bunch of little egos (Challenge Rating 29 opponents that respawn and cast chain lightning when they form) running around healing the Damsel? This whole quest chain seemed so completely broken the entire time we were running it.
If you're going to crank up the difficulty of a quest that much, at least crank up the experience that it gives or something. If you're going to make the high-level quests epic difficulty, at least let our level 18/19 characters go into an actual epic level quest.
/rant
TL;DR: High level elite quests are broken, not fun and the reward is not worth the effort it takes to complete them.
oweieie
08-15-2012, 01:28 AM
So it went from the highest Devotion equippable at level 16 to - still the highest Devotion equippable at level 16. Oh and it works on Mass Heal now (the most important healing spell in the game) which it never did before. How on earth is that a nerf?
It went from being better than was possible with random gen, to being worse than what you can get off the AH for 5k plat due to implement bonus. Also gauntlets of eternity at level 12 are an unnoticeable 6 sp worse and only 1 slot and have major lore.
It should be pretty obvious it went from something desired that took some effort to get to something that no one would want even if it took no effort at all. If you don't think of that as a nerf, not sure what you could think of it as.
And also because the formula changed from multiplicative to additive, yeah, 78 can come out to be worse than the old 50.
Qhualor
08-15-2012, 01:42 AM
Umm...no. Wiki has DT plate at armor value 22...
That is, clearly, not what it was pre-update.
DT leather armor, if I recall correctly would have been studded leather (3) and +5 enhancement for 8, and I think 7 dex because it gave light armor +2 more than normal.
you said light so thats what i looked up :)
the plate armor sounds right. my fighter used to be a stalwart and he had the plate armor until i tr'd him into a monster type build.
if changes were really made, than i didnt see it in the release notes which would make it a stealth change. that would be unheard of for the devs to do that :D pre ac changes all the armor was +2 better than the +5 random armor of its type. it would be my assumption that if they did make a change, the dt armor would still be better than random armor of that type. i dont see why they would make dt armor worse than random armor.
Raithe
08-15-2012, 01:45 AM
It should be pretty obvious it went from something desired that took some effort to get to something that no one would want even if it took no effort at all.
My first "uber" item was a Guardkiller bow from Water Works end reward, if I recall six years ago very well...
I'm not actually surprised that 6 years later that bow isn't quite as useful.
They upgraded DT armor's base stats to be fairly close to epic in terms of damage protection, and the nice thing about DT armor is you can fit any effects you want on it. I have changed the effects on all ~20 of my DT armors on my characters, probably some of them more than once.
The potency 48 on Torin's Choker that my bard wears doesn't break even with the Superior Potency VI it used to have, even before counting the fact it isn't multiplied by metamagics anymore. Nerf? Maybe, hard to tell with all the spellpower boosts going on... but unlike the poor souls who have to endure the DT nerf, I can't actually switch it out for something better, and I find the +2 insight stat bonus and Warchanter set bonus to be too good to replace.
Funny_looking_mole
08-15-2012, 02:01 AM
A minor note, but just so you know you can get 84 devotion from DT armor from the Sovereign Rune of Life.
jwdaniels
08-18-2012, 02:19 PM
So I ran this again last night with a different group - no chain lightning (the visual was there, but no damage) in the end fight and only one Super Ego showed up. The Damsel's healing seemed to be greatly diminished, and it was no different than I remember it being last life when I ran it.
As a general observation, elite difficulty quests seem to have gotten a lot more manageable across the board since I posted this thread - even Sins of Attrition with a full group of 18-21 characters not fully optimized was more than manageable.
Did they stealth-fix something that they stealth-broke? The increased difficulty seemed to coincide with the increas in heroic exp to +35%. Did that increase affect something else in some weird way?
jwdaniels
08-18-2012, 02:24 PM
Terrible thread based on complaints by incompetent players.
Mass hold / disco ball the egos, have the entire party kill the damsel.
P.S.. *DO NOT KILL* the egos, leave them CCed and they don't respawn or heal the damsel. She drops dead in like 10 seconds on elite difficulty.
Oh right, your wizard doesn't have mass hold or disco ball, and instead just spams meteor swarm / wail at everything in sight. That's why you lost.
The main reason why people complain about elite being too hard is because its their first time running said quest on elite. Up until BB and tomes of learning, people rarely ran these quests on elite and mostly farmed them on normal. Elite is meant to be ... ELITE! Not simple, casual, normal (exception being GH elites which are far too easy).
Actually, we didn't have a wizard - this quest never required a specifically specced character in the past, nor did it require disco balls when I completed it last night. I've run this quest many times on elite with many different groups and combinations, and I have never seen the mechanics work the way they did the other night.
Thanks for your insightful post, though. At least you tried.
phillymiket
08-18-2012, 02:49 PM
Did IQ Elites with group of skilled 18s last night.
It's harder then before, for sure, but quite manageable.
You really kind of have to stick to the program.
If you are out of range of your healer when a caster or four decides they don't like the look of your armor skin then you are not going to have a good time.
Stick together, kill the healers first, don't agro the whole lot.
For Jeets end fight?
/shrug
Got the bacon, focused on damsel only, looted chest, r/c.
Didn't seem harder then anything else.
.
Noctus
08-18-2012, 03:37 PM
i think you are confused what a nerf is. a nerf would be the devs actually doing something to change the dt armor.
No. A nerf can also be done indirectly.
For example if before a named Armor gave 40 "protectionpoints" and normal armor of that level gave 30 "protectionpoints", but then a gamechange happens and the named armor stays untouched, but randomloot now has a value of 50 "protectionpoints" then the named armor is not worth wearing any more --> It has been nerfed.
Vormaerin
08-18-2012, 04:14 PM
No. A nerf can also be done indirectly.
For example if before a named Armor gave 40 "protectionpoints" and normal armor of that level gave 30 "protectionpoints", but then a gamechange happens and the named armor stays untouched, but randomloot now has a value of 50 "protectionpoints" then the named armor is not worth wearing any more --> It has been nerfed.
If its random loot from the same level of quests, then maybe you have a point. But its really twisting the definition of nerf to the point where its hard to say it means anything.
Armor becoming obsolete due to higher level gear becoming available is definitely NOT a nerf.
WielderofGigantus
09-02-2012, 09:19 PM
Just failed a Jeets Elite run. 3 melees, 1 caster, 1 healer, 1 pocket healer. Got to last battle, used the bacon, and started beating down the maiden. And beating down. And beating down. Finally told the caster to dot her with Niac's and Eladar's. Even with with them DoTing away, we still couldn't damage her fast enough. Two minutes later of continual beating, the Ego's came back from wherever they were and tore us apart one by one.
I've done Elite Jeets before, but not recently, and I don't recall the maiden ever healing herself before.
The secret to doing 18-20 is to save your Vale quests until you get Level 18.
If you waste your vale exp before that, you set yourself up for a long and thoroughly irritating 18-20.
Shade
09-03-2012, 05:50 AM
Just failed a Jeets Elite run. 3 melees, 1 caster, 1 healer, 1 pocket healer. Got to last battle, used the bacon, and started beating down the maiden. And beating down. And beating down. Finally told the caster to dot her with Niac's and Eladar's. Even with with them DoTing away, we still couldn't damage her fast enough. Two minutes later of continual beating, the Ego's came back from wherever they were and tore us apart one by one.
I've done Elite Jeets before, but not recently, and I don't recall the maiden ever healing herself before.
Tried this solo to see what ppl are on about.
Seems to me they made the fight EASIER then before. I recall there being at least 4 super egos at once time, this time I checked carefully and only 3 spawned on elite. (checked N and H too, zero spawn on N and only 1 on H)
The maiden does not heal herself, she does nothing at all but summon the egos at set intervals of health. The litle egos can heal her. the super egos just try to kick your butt.
So actaully killing them wiht meteor swarm or wail as another poster pointed out IS a good strategy, at least for the first wave. They have very low hp, but decent saves (halfling luck after all), so they could save on a dance ball and heal the damsel a bit.
I'd suggest:
Kill the first wave
Set up a ball when shes about to hit 75% hp (thats when next way spawns)
Kill that wave
New ball again
At around 50-60% a super ego spawns.. They are VERY hard, have tons of hp and are not worth killing less u want the monster manual entry. So have a tough char grab his agro and kite him about. If the wizards a decently tough palemaster, he could cloudkill to get all the egos agro, and let the partry focus from here.
If you just damage the egos down 10% or so, they will stop healing the damsel and chase you. So yea kiting those works too. Not sure if they spawn more regardless of the previous waves, probably not, but easier on the SP to kill them in some cases as theres only 3 waves.
donfilibuster
09-03-2012, 03:21 PM
Maybe what happens now is people isn't reaching high dps as easy as before?
I recall it was always too hard on elite, for non-endgame toons.
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