I don't believe in free to play

[deahamlet]

Some posts lately got me thinking.

This game can be played for free and can do so for quite some time.
However it is not really free.

Someone has to pay the developers.
Someone has to pay the qa staff.
Someone has to pay the gms and forum moderators.
Someone has to pay the managers (eep).
Someone has to pay for server space and bandwidth use.
Someone has to pay for the network admins.
Someone has to pay for the artists designing the look of the game.

Even if the game got no new content, you'd still need to pay for manhours (fixes, maintenance of network, etc) and server upkeep (bandwidth, hardware).

SOMEONE has to pay. It is not really free, it cannot be free.
The someone is:
1. The VIP you scourn for getting perks you don't get (a thread whining about the 10% speed boost? Ridiculous!!!)
2. The premium player who buys the packs.
3. The player (even VIP spend TP on top of monthly, I know I do) who buys the esthetics like armor kits or nicer hair.
4. The player who buys convenience items that take a bit of a grind to get like hearts, small mats, essences, etc.
5. The player who buys what some consider pay to win: tomes, mana pots, hires that don't increase scaling as much, higher cure pots, undead cure pots, blood of dragons, fate tomes, etc.

I'm sorry to tell you but not paying a dime to Turbine is not some holy mission. Someone is supporting your choice not to pay but play. I personally get a tad stingy when I'm mad at turbine (you know what you did! Lol), but if I continue to play I try to give them the VIP fee at least to pay for the server farm if nothing else.

This isn't an offline game that you paid your 20-60 dollars for and then costs nobody any resources for you to play for 10 years if you want.
And this really has nothing to do with being mad at turbine for bait and switch and other questionable decisions.

It has to do with maths. If I want to hurt them I stop playing and paying. If I continue to play and pay nothing, I'm using up resources someone else is paying for. And no, I'm not even going to excuse it by saying I paid a lot over the last year and that should last them for another year. The money I gave already supported the other X amount of non-paying players and new improvements... The money is not in some bank they can take out and doll out slower over the next year.

I don't mind that the game gives free options and that I subsidize them. There's many kids and people who can't afford it... I can so why shouldn't I support something I enjoy? But let us not lie to ourselves and claim that when we give zero dollars to turbine that we are actually playing for free.

There is no such thing as free in an MMO. Those frivolous options (oh man, I forgot the pets!!!!) that entice some to part with money is what continue to keep the servers running.

When I think of that, I get a little less mad that I paid $80 for an expansion that messed with some of my toons and gave me outright headaches with the bugs.

[Jay203]

such is the way of the world, there're always some people that penny-pinch whenever they can. even if they like a game, they won't support the devs by spending money on the game

[FrozenNova]

(a thread whining about the 10% speed boost? Ridiculous!!!)

I must have missed this. What's that?

[gordgray]

Op /Singed

[Cinos]

This game would be dead if it wasn't free to play, you know. Then nobody would get paid.

[Nibor]

The fear of "pay-to-win" is valid. F2P model of drawing in customers is difficult as a business model, and a lot of games that have tried that route have ended up being horrible because of it.

That said, I think DDO has done very well with the model. I personally would never have spent a dime on this game if there was no F2P portion, and I really like the non-subscription option as it more suits my playstyle - play a lot in a short time when I have free time, then take breaks for weeks or months as I my schedule is too busy. I tried out the game F2P, decided I enjoyed it, and bought TP to unlock content. I expect that my experience is not unique.

F2P games get into "pay-to-win" trouble when they introduce things like improved loot available only in-store, especially when later content is balanced around you actually having that in-store item. Imagine a raid with a boss with a DR that could only be broken with a store item, AND the more expensive version of the store item was Greater ThisThing Bane as well. That's pretty much "pay-to-win" right there. When you can't progress any farther without buying store items, and once you buy the store items there's no reason to earn anything in game...well, that's how games die. People burn through the game, some of them buy up all the goodies, beat the game...and leave.

Cosmetic pets, armor appearance kits, 10% in-town speed, Elite opening, Monster Manual..these are all great perks that don't make for "pay-to-win" yet entice people to spend money on the game and getting enjoyment out of it. A lot of games could learn from the DDO F2P model.

[Mastikator]

The game isn't actually free to play, the f2p is just a cleverly disguised trial version. I myself realized this once my first character hit level 12, suddenly there was nothing to do but start paying.

[deahamlet]

I must have missed this. What's that?
Lol on lama forums. VIP are getting 10% speed boost that stacks in public areas. Someone was outraged at the pay to win lmao.

[Ungood]

Very well said to the OP.

Nothing is really free. Someone needs to get paid. From the cost to keep the servers up to paying the staff. Money is spent to keep the game going.

While the enticement to play for free has drawn in customers, only the ones that have opted to support the game via funds have in fact 'saved' it.

[deahamlet]

The game isn't actually free to play, the f2p is just a cleverly disguised trial version. I myself realized this once my first character hit level 12, suddenly there was nothing to do but start paying.
Wow is 20 levels out of 85 cap as a trial. I think ddo is better. Also with some grind you can get to 20 FTP, but it's really grindy.
Most people I know who cannot afford things other than on their bday or Xmas (young people mostly) are helped by friends with some passes and such. And then they buy vale and other good xp and loot packs at Xmas or in their bday. They love the game so much they ask for TP as presents :). I know a father and son that play and the dad bought him some nice packs for Xmas, the son was so happy!!!

Point is, it really is better than other f2p models I've seen or any other trials for MMOs.

[DrunkenBuddha]

I enjoy this buggy game. Do I wish it were less so? Sure, but it's not enough to wring my panties into knots over. I play this as a diversion. If I am getting frustrated I play something else for a bit but I always end up coming back. The emo angst over the bugs and disappoint honestly confuses me. People obviously place a higher standard on what their $80 must deliver than I do. Me, so long as I've been moderately entertained and the product hasn't set my kids on fire, I'm good.

Maybe I just have lower standards. I was never expecting this to be bug free. I cannot think of any other mmo that has been bug free. Maybe I've just been lucky. I've never had the game destroying bugs complained of by others. At best is an irritating annoyance with non-stacking holy on crafted hand wraps with TOD holy burst. I would admit that thinking of this too much does sometimes give me diarrhea.

In summation, so long as my wife continues to believe that Turbine is a charity and that my donations are tax deductible, I'll still play.

[deahamlet]

The fear of "pay-to-win" is valid. F2P model of drawing in customers is difficult as a business model, and a lot of games that have tried that route have ended up being horrible because of it.

That said, I think DDO has done very well with the model. I personally would never have spent a dime on this game if there was no F2P portion, and I really like the non-subscription option as it more suits my playstyle - play a lot in a short time when I have free time, then take breaks for weeks or months as I my schedule is too busy. I tried out the game F2P, decided I enjoyed it, and bought TP to unlock content. I expect that my experience is not unique.

F2P games get into "pay-to-win" trouble when they introduce things like improved loot available only in-store, especially when later content is balanced around you actually having that in-store item. Imagine a raid with a boss with a DR that could only be broken with a store item, AND the more expensive version of the store item was Greater ThisThing Bane as well. That's pretty much "pay-to-win" right there. When you can't progress any farther without buying store items, and once you buy the store items there's no reason to earn anything in game...well, that's how games die. People burn through the game, some of them buy up all the goodies, beat the game...and leave.

Cosmetic pets, armor appearance kits, 10% in-town speed, Elite opening, Monster Manual..these are all great perks that don't make for "pay-to-win" yet entice people to spend money on the game and getting enjoyment out of it. A lot of games could learn from the DDO F2P model.

Some items are questionable but I also don't see any item in store that I can't play without or feel gimp without.

I also think offering option to sub or spend TP on packs and items is great for the game. Not everyone wants the monthly fee.
But as long as you buy some stuff once in a while while you are playing... You're helping to pay the bills. It really doesn't have to be a sub to support the game.

[Ungood]

The game isn't actually free to play, the f2p is just a cleverly disguised trial version. I myself realized this once my first character hit level 12, suddenly there was nothing to do but start paying.

We have people who made Completionst Free to Play. So it can be done.

Just a matter of being bent on not supporting the game, and being under some delusion that there is such a thing as "Free to Play" and not realizing that your game is being paid for by others.

Make no mistake, Turbine is not footing the bill for all the free players, the paying players are. The day that they start to lose money on this game, is the day they close the doors, regardless of how many 'players' or active accounts they have.

[Ew_vastano]

you mean the QA staff are getting paid for this?

wow, one born every moment i supose

and i refuse to pay for such shoddy goods only reason i still play is i own all packs and its free if i had to pay a sub i would be elsewhere

[tralfaz81]

The game isn't actually free to play, the f2p is just a cleverly disguised trial version. I myself realized this once my first character hit level 12, suddenly there was nothing to do but start paying.

Very true. First ones free, second one will cost you junkie :P

[Ungood]

you mean the QA staff are getting paid for this?

wow, one born every moment i supose

Ouch dude.. that was mean.. :p

[deahamlet]

you mean the QA staff are getting paid for this?

wow, one born every moment i supose

and i refuse to pay for such shoddy goods only reason i still play is i own all packs and its free if i had to pay a sub i would be elsewhere

They do get paid. They might suck at it, but they do get paid :P.

Someone else is paying for your play time, not turbine, that is for sure.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I don't believe in free to play

Oh no! Tinkerdev is dying!

Everyone, clap your hands together and say it with me: "I do believe in free to play! I do believe in free to play! I do believe in free to play!"

[Ungood]

and i refuse to pay for such shoddy goods only reason i still play is i own all packs and its free if i had to pay a sub i would be elsewhere

Last thing I spent money on was the Expansion.

And like you, I own all the packs, so at this point, so I may as well play what I paid for.;)

[Fanatic_Guru]

Make no mistake, Turbine is not footing the bill for all the free players, the paying players are. The day that they start to lose money on this game, is the day they close the doors, regardless of how many 'players' or active accounts they have.

If they have have high active accounts but low revenue then you leverage that with advertising.

New Items like:
Nike Shoes of Speed
Pepsi Energy Potions

Nike becomes a new item prefix that adds 10% stacking move speed but nothing to the item level.

Pepsi Energy Potions return mana and can be bought from vendors with platinum. When you character drinks one they say, "Ah Pepsi, that's refreshing!"

We can also have quest like: "Find the Perfect Night's Sleep" where you fight the night gremlins to recover the Tempur-Pedic mattress.

Then finally DDO will be truly Free-to-Play.

[deahamlet]

If they have have high active accounts but low revenue then you leverage that with advertising.

New Items like:
Nike Shoes of Speed
Pepsi Energy Potions

Nike becomes a new item prefix that adds 10% stacking move speed but nothing to the item level.

Pepsi Energy Potions return mana and can be bought from vendors with platinum. When you character drinks one they say, "Ah Pepsi, that's refreshing!"

We can also have quest like: "Find the Perfect Night's Sleep" where you fight the night gremlins to recover the Tempur-Pedic mattress.

Then finally DDO will be truly Free-to-Play.
You're gonna give me nightmares with this stuff!

[Cinos]

As a VIP, I would not play this game without the population than F2P provides.

[chrichton]

I have heard mention, both here and in other threads, how one cannot pay a single dime into this game, and still get all content, etc etc. However, I have not seen anything substantial to indicate how many people actually do this. I wonder - how far into the game do FtP players go before paying form something and become "premium"? I'd love to see some sort of distribution on that.

So - if we don't know those numbers, I think it is a little alarmist to complain about FtPer being an anchor on this game - or trying to guilt the FtPer into paying because "its not really free - others are paying for you". No - it is indeed free to those who do not pay any money to pay this game. I mean, anything in a consumer economy that a consumer does not need top pay for is free to them, but of course the commodity had to be created, so it was a cost to the "manufacturer".

I don't see the big deal here.

[Vormaerin]

As a VIP, I would not play this game without the population than F2P provides.

How many players are actually free to play, though? I suspect its not really that high a percentage. Even my super grind TP for everything guildy is premium, though he hasn't spent very much money.

This game is alive today because of the premium model of payment, not because of the literal non-payers. The switch to premium boosted revenue substantially because, despite the claims of some players about the rip of VIP, most premiums pay more money than the subscribers do. Also, subscriptions went up after the game went premium, because more people tried it and liked it.

[Hambo]

I have heard mention, both here and in other threads, how one cannot pay a single dime into this game, and still get all content, etc etc. However, I have not seen anything substantial to indicate how many people actually do this. I wonder - how far into the game do FtP players go before paying form something and become "premium"? I'd love to see some sort of distribution on that.

So - if we don't know those numbers, I think it is a little alarmist to complain about FtPer being an anchor on this game - or trying to guilt the FtPer into paying because "its not really free - others are paying for you". No - it is indeed free to those who do not pay any money to pay this game. I mean, anything in a consumer economy that a consumer does not need top pay for is free to them, but of course the commodity had to be created, so it was a cost to the "manufacturer".

I don't see the big deal here.

I think the "big deal" may be those who claim "F2P saved DDO!".

This should maybe read "F2Pers who bought TP and became Premium players saved DDO!" :D

[deahamlet]

I have heard mention, both here and in other threads, how one cannot pay a single dime into this game, and still get all content, etc etc. However, I have not seen anything substantial to indicate how many people actually do this. I wonder - how far into the game do FtP players go before paying form something and become "premium"? I'd love to see some sort of distribution on that.

So - if we don't know those numbers, I think it is a little alarmist to complain about FtPer being an anchor on this game - or trying to guilt the FtPer into paying because "its not really free - others are paying for you". No - it is indeed free to those who do not pay any money to pay this game. I mean, anything in a consumer economy that a consumer does not need top pay for is free to them, but of course the commodity had to be created, so it was a cost to the "manufacturer".

I don't see the big deal here.

I don't see where I was trying to guilt anyone into anything.
Someone has to pay at some point. If everyone was playing for free, it wouldn't exist.
I already said I don't mind some people not paying a dime, but playing completely free is as I said "not some holy mission", at least not in my eyes. If I HAVE the money and I ENJOY the game, I don't see how me choosing not to give Turbine a dime is some awesomesauce goal.

I used to spend 60 dollars a month at least on a new game to play (sometimes to the end, sometimes not anywhere close to that, not all games have demoes so you go by reviews and sometimes you agree with them and sometimes you do not). Now I buy fewer stand-alone games, so giving Turbine the money I would have spent on OTHER entertainment that I no longer spend money on because DDO is a drug :P... doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice to me. In fact, I give them less than I used to spend and still feel okay.

I don't assume nor think everyone can afford to pay for everything and anything.
I do assume that if you have some money available for entertainment, you do enjoy Turbine's game and play it daily... perhaps refusing to spend a cent on the game is a bit nonsensical to me. I don't approve of companies making crazy profits, but I also don't expect server time, developer time (we're still asking for bug fixes and lag fixes are we not), and support staff time to come for free.

I also said I don't mind that what I spend keeps the game free for others who cannot afford.

[Terebinthia]

I think Turbine's put together a very well balanced free to play model here.

I know I would never have tried DDO were it not free to play to start - it was my first MMO and I had no idea if I would enjoy it or not. I then went premium for a few months, bought a ton of packs (including some horrible choices, full price 3BC hello? :D ) then 2 years VIP, and then finally I am premium again because my time constraints are greater - albeit premium with all the heroic content unlocked, races, classes and the expansion pack. Plus some TP in the kitty to spend on packs if I feel the content is worth buying. They would have had none of that if I'd have had to subscribe up front.

I am completely free to play in LOTRO as an off game because I simply don't find it engaging enough to spend the cash on. Although the scenery is very pretty. But they seem to have done a good job there too. (the flavour of the store is different but it seems well balanced).

Sure, there's a very few dedicated (crazy? :) ) people who grind out all the TPs for everything in both games, but I think they are a tiny minority. Turbine benefits more from the people who have migrated in through free to play than it loses from the grinders.

[wolfy42]

I am a long term VIP player, and I have bought TP in addition to that over the years.

To me, it is very worth it since unless i'm taking a break I play at least 20 hours a month and often quite alot more then that. I doubt I have even payed ten cents per hour of enjoyment I have gotten out of DDO over the years. Can't beat that value.

You can totally play DDO for "free", although spending just a bit of money for premium makes way more sense (personally suggest any new player get VIP for 3 months to start off...netting 1500 TP and the ability to run quests on elite first for easy TP farming after they unlock Vet 7). I'm fine with the game being that way..and I think turbine eventually makes more money because of it (since people get involved in the game and eventually do spend money on it).

As far as VIP perks....seriously they blow. The 10% movement speed boost is stupid because it's only in public areas...which is totally worthless in my opinion. If it was in ALL areas that might be something (since you can't use the pendant of time in dungeons), but in public areas it would only make any difference at all.....very early in the game. Once you get the pendent you move so fast already (especially with something giving a movement speed boost like boots on top of it) that it won't even be noticable.

I do think VIPs need better perks.....since most of us have long ago unlocked everything you get as VIP with TP. I've said before a VIP option that does not give adventure packs/races etc should be available with either a different price point, or different perks etc.

Anyway at least the 10% will be something that we actually get out of being VIP. You don't get jack if you have TR'd twice already and unlocked all the content with TP right now...well besides 500 tp (which is a pretty bad ratio of money to TP).

One.....idea....would be to give VIP characters a discount on purchases from the store as well. Say a 10% discount on anything they buy. This would give incentive to VIP characters to buy TP (possibly making Turbine more money) while giving them a bit more of a bonus for being VIP as well.

You are right OP.....DDO would not work if nobody spent money.....but many of us think the game is indeed worth spending money on, and I think we will continue to do so (even if we are not overly thrilled with certain updates or changes).

I have not spent as much money on any other game, but I have also not had as many hours of enjoyment from any other game either (not even D2). I was here when we had only 10 levels.....and I saw the level cap slowly expand over the years. When it reached 20 I figured we would never see it increase again...but that we would never run out of things to do with so many levels of play and character combinations.

I was wrong......as over time it became much easier/faster to level. The amount of power players have has increased, the ability to solo has skyrocketed etc. Heck lvl 1-14 is fastest solo for most characters now and can be done in a few days easily. The game has changed drastically...but it's still a blast with TONS of content for new players that come along. A very minimal investment opens up a world of fun.....both short term and long term. A 3 month VIP subscription gives a new player everything then need to play DDO for years. You basically get access to the full game for 3 months for $30...and by the time that 3 months is over (if you have actively been playing the game) you have enough TP to purchase the adventure packs you need to keep doing so (and can then start puchasing other stuff over time as needed.).

I can't think of any other game...of any type.....ever...that offers as much for a $30 investment. DDO can be played for free...spending no money at all, but I think anyone who can spend $30 on DDO...and doesn't...but players for more then 100 hours...is missing out on a ton...and wasting way too many hours running new chars up etc just to get TP. Honestly even with Vet 7 and the ability to open quests on elite, your talking about making less then a quarter an hour worth of TP by running new chars up (after the initial first time on each server). It's just not worth it in my opinion when a small amount of money can enable you to open everything up...while actually playing characters you enjoy up through the content.

Once you get vet 7 though with VIP, you can run characters through the early quests solo VERY fast (specially sorcs)......getting up to about 1000 favor (worth 250 TP) quite fast). Doing that will allow you to try quite a few different builds and classes through the mid levels (Getting a good feel for them) and then decide which you really like enjoy. That is quite easy/fast to do at this point (again about 2 days if your playing 8+ hours a day...or a weekend basically). By the end of 3 months you could pretty easily do that with each of your (9? Not sure how many base char slots a vip gets) characters.

That means you get 1250 or so TP for first time bonus on each server + 1500 tp for VIP for 3 months + 2500 tp for running each char on 1 server up to 1000 favor and your prime char up to 2000 + favor. So for $30 you end up with 3 months of full access and over 5250 turbine points. As long as you play enough you also get vet 7 status on your primary server and 32 point builds.

Even purchasing WF..that still leaves quite alot of TP left over for adventure packs....especially if you purchase them on sale.

[Terebinthia]

Nice post above there. :)

One thing that was mooted as a potential perk for VIP at the Site That Shall Not Be Named, which I think is a good idea, is that of VIP only cosmetic pets. Not as a drop, not for purchase. Just your own, your precious, your precious cosmetic pet.

I think the elite opening is a decent perk, and the +10% move speed is a nice touch. The little things make a great deal of difference to the way VIPs feel loved and cuddled.

[Double_O]

As a Prem that has leased everything in the game but the ARTi(cost about 150 USD to do that), as long as they keep kicking out new content they will keep making money off me.

[Fomori]

I'm a long time player of MMO's, so for me I am used to the subscriber model... no pay, no play. The free the play kick is nice in that there are some instances where I can not be paying, yet still playing. To me that's win win. Sure I may not have all the frills if I am not paying but I am fine with that.

I do not see the sub model as giving less than it should, I see the free model giving more than it should.

[sebastianosmith]

F2P games get into "pay-to-win" trouble when they introduce things like improved loot available only in-store, especially when later content is balanced around you actually having that in-store item. Imagine a raid with a boss with a DR that could only be broken with a store item, AND the more expensive version of the store item was Greater ThisThing Bane as well. That's pretty much "pay-to-win" right there. When you can't progress any farther without buying store items, and once you buy the store items there's no reason to earn anything in game...well, that's how games die. People burn through the game, some of them buy up all the goodies, beat the game...and leave.

Not trying to derail this thread - more of a slight lateral motion - but I'm still fuzzy on this whole P2W concept. I can't find any means to "win" DDO. I know the Completionist feat makes mention of it, but I think that was more tongue-in-cheek than a statement of fact. Even if there was some raid that was next to impossible to complete without an überkëwlzuperweepön which was only available in store, there is no mandate to run said raid. The game could still be enjoyed without whatever loot such a raid might offer. Characters would still be able to level despite not running the raid in question. I simply don't see how "pay-to-win" fits into the current DDO model even with the addition store-only items purportedly required complete some content. Provided Turbine continues to offer a method of obtaining game currency by actually playing the game, the worst that might happen would be DDO remained "grind-to-win".

In so far as the OP is concerned, I agree wholeheartedly with the observations and sentiment. TANSTAAFL.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I think the "big deal" may be those who claim "F2P saved DDO!".

This should maybe read "F2Pers who bought TP and became Premium players saved DDO!" :D

Very much this.

If you're selling an addictive product, the best sales and marketing strategy possible is to give away the first dose free.

[Daemoneyes]

The game isn't actually free to play, the f2p is just a cleverly disguised trial version. I myself realized this once my first character hit level 12, suddenly there was nothing to do but start paying.

Sir you are right with the Statement that this Game is not Free to Play, its Cashfree to Play. Cause f2player bring lots of new costumer and make a nice fuzzy playerbase for the lower levels. This again brings People to stay and invest.

But you are wrong in it that u need Money,
i myself are an example that you are partially wrong.
i am F2P, have an lvl 21 PM and got all low lvl packs except the raid and got vale and gianthold. Also i have 1775 or so points left which i hopefully can spend on more packs when +35% hits the store. (btw i even got an huge collectors bag ;) )

Sure it was some time investment to get all the tp but it was never a chore or work.
Ive run different Chars on each server and it was lot of fun and helped me to find the class i want to play and the server on which to play.

[wolfy42]

Not trying to derail this thread - more of a slight lateral motion - but I'm still fuzzy on this whole P2W concept. I can't find any means to "win" DDO. I know the Completionist feat makes mention of it, but I think that was more tongue-in-cheek than a statement of fact. Even if there was some raid that was next to impossible to complete without an überkëwlzuperweepön which was only available in store, there is no mandate to run said raid. The game could still be enjoyed without whatever loot such a raid might offer. Characters would still be able to level despite not running the raid in question. I simply don't see how "pay-to-win" fits into the current DDO model even with the addition store-only items purportedly required complete some content. Provided Turbine continues to offer a method of obtaining game currency by actually playing the game, the worst that might happen would be DDO remained "grind-to-win".

In so far as the OP is concerned, I agree wholeheartedly with the observations and sentiment. TANSTAAFL.

Pay to win basically means pay to have an advantage in the game. A real advantage that makes advancing easier, or makes your character more powerful ....or both.

DDO is a pay to win game...since you can get things like tomes of experience or +3 tomes etc in the store. It's not bad to the point where you can buy things that are unavailable in the game (for the most part) ..and will make your character stronger then any other characters can achieve who do not buy the same thing.....but it's fairly bad in that you can boost the exp rate significantly (allowing you to level quite a bit faster....which means getting additional past lives etc which do boost power), and you can get tomes much earlier etc.

It works fairly well for a P2W game.....allowing you to gain advantage buy purchasing things from the store, but still keeping you on a fairly level playing field with others who do not. For the most part the advantages you can purchase just make your life easier, or give you abilities and bonuses you could eventually get through time and effort.

I generally toss a Greater tome of learning on any character I create that I intend on playing long term. It just makes leveling up that much easier and faster, and I can afford it. It's an advantage, but at any given level it doesn't make me more powerful then other characters the same level as me (I just probably got to that level faster then them heh).

Since we have so many other bonuses to exp etc....I would like VIPs to get an automatic +10% exp bonus for all quests as well. You can even have that be purchasable for premiums in the store....but it should be free to VIPs. It's a small bonus especially when you compare it to all the other bonuses to exp we get right now (especially on elite runs), but again....it's a nice little perk.

Actually here is what I would really like to see, a 1% exp bonus for each month a player is VIP consecutively. That bonus is only available to VIPS, and would start off with say.....5 months previous (so we wouldn't all get like 80% exp bonus lol).

I'd say cap it at 20% (so 20 consequtive months)...and leave it at that. Now VIPS would have a real in game bonus...and incentive to keep being VIP nonstop as well. It would make more money for turbine (less people taking breaks for a few months every so often) and it would give a nice bonus for being VIP that would affect everyone (both long and short term players).

I am quite dissapointed in the 10% movement speed bonus though. We were told (don't have a link but others have posted it) that there would be new perks coming for VIP status. This is not a perk that is going to affect most players.

Most VIP perks only are a bonus for new players right now. I get the added character slots (but I could have bought them many times over with the money I spend on VIP even after factoring out the TP I get), and the ability to start quests on elite with non-tr'd characters.....thats pretty much it.

I'm fine with staying VIP because like I said....I love this game, play it more then 20 hours a month and think it's worth the money. Heck it's only $10 a month now with a 3 month subscription!! So yeah, it's good enough. But at the same time it would be nice if long term players would get a bonus as well.

[THOTHdha]

While it is entirely true that games do not survive, let along grow, if they are not profitable you also can not ignore the fact that in an MMO players are content. By opening the game up as 'limited free to play' the player base increased many fold. During the very long gap between Module 8 and Update 1 it was a tiny, dwindling group of people hanging on. Now there are many times as many people, which some were never happy about despite the fact that it restarted a dead game.

There is a reason why AAA titles such as Star Trek Online and Star Wars the Old Republic have gone from subscription to some form of Free to Play model shortly after launching. The simple fact is that they can not survive with the massive loss of players that both titles had after launch. Even if they are only playing a 'demo' version, it gives their subscribed players someone to group with. It makes the servers feel like less of a ghost town.

Yet, neither of these titles, nor other AAA 'F2P' games like EverQuest 2, have the level of progression that DDO does. Once you are serious about those game you have to subscribe. There is no analog to a premium player owning all of the content packs that they are interested in. I think that this was an amazingly insightful decision by Turbine. Hands down, the absolute best thing that they have done for the game since Eberron Unlimited.

The other end of the spectrum would be games that are designed around a cash mall. They get players started, then reveal that the only way that they can actually progress is by purchasing things from their online store, such as the Perfect World games and a host of others. Until recently Turbine has been very careful to stay away from such traps.

However, things like the +2 Tome of Fate kind of destroy that, drawing DDO closer to a Pay to Win game, rather than a flexible payment hybrid. There is no way possible to max out your Fate Points. So if you want your character to be the best it can be, you will need to buy these expensive cash shop items for every single one of them. No matter if you are VIP or Premium, you will still have to buy them if you want to get all you can out of the new Destiny system. The fact that they can drop in game, as a developer pointed out, just like any other cash shop game is insulting to the players. The DDO store items certainly do drop in game.... and they do so at such a low rate that telling players to hope for that is simply ridiculous.

So TLDR version; I agree with the OP. Someone has to keep the lights on. Turbine has done a pretty good job, IMO, of trying to handle subscribers with premium players with free to plays. Perhaps they haven't rewarded their subscribers quite as much as they should, with Epic Opening and the new movement buff the only clear advantages. But they have shown with this recent change that they want to improve on that. And on the other end, the game is not terribly prohibitive to free players. By saving up for a couple of key adventure packs they can keep playing along at DDO even if they do not have the option to invest monetarily in it. But they are walking a very tight line with their expanding array of cash store items. It was originally claimed that they would be 'convenience and cosmetic' options, which is great! But putting 'must have' things there will only drive players away from the game.

[carll78]

(a thread whining about the 10% speed boost [to VIPs in Public areas]? Ridiculous!!!)


I must have missed this. What's that?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388018

[Postumus]

If you're selling an addictive product, the best sales and marketing strategy possible is to give away the first dose free.

That's what my marketing professor, Stringer Bell, always said.

[TekkenDevil]

Even if the game got no new content, you'd still need to pay for manhours (fixes, maintenance of network, etc) and server upkeep (bandwidth, hardware).

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/403/Girls.png

[Vormaerin]

Anyway at least the 10% will be something that we actually get out of being VIP. You don't get jack if you have TR'd twice already and unlocked all the content with TP right now...well besides 500 tp (which is a pretty bad ratio of money to TP).
.

Actually, I am quite fond of the "don't need to visit a fatespinner to muck about with your destinies" perk. And since most of my characters are not double TRs, I do benefit from the opening perk. Frankly, i probably would have quit playing a long time ago if I was forced to run normal difficulty. I just find it too boring.

As far as the TP goes, I don't think of it as spending $10 for 500 points. I just think of it as my sub costing $5/month since I have no trouble spending the TPs on extra inventory slots, bank tabs, armor skins, gargantuan bags, and other conveniences.

[TekkenDevil]

Actually, I am quite fond of the "don't need to visit a fatespinner to muck about with your destinies" perk. And since most of my characters are not double TRs, I do benefit from the opening perk. Frankly, i probably would have quit playing a long time ago if I was forced to run normal difficulty. I just find it too boring.

As far as the TP goes, I don't think of it as spending $10 for 500 points. I just think of it as my sub costing $5/month since I have no trouble spending the TPs on extra inventory slots, bank tabs, armor skins, gargantuan bags, and other conveniences.

How do you not, when some of those cost more than 500 TP, and the rest close to 500?
I'd really appreciate at least a discount to VIP's on all vanity items.

Come on, I pay monthly and I could only afford one Armor Kit per month with the TP grant? That's just terrible.

[wax_on_wax_off]

The game isn't actually free to play, the f2p is just a cleverly disguised trial version. I myself realized this once my first character hit level 12, suddenly there was nothing to do but start paying.

Somewhat this.

Another way of looking at it is that Turbine is giving players whom can't otherwise afford to pay their keep access to the game so that you VIP mob have more people to group with and feel awesome around (not difficult to feel ridiculously cool around most F2P accounts due to severe gear/build limitations).

It's a pretty sure thing that if the game population falls under a certain amount then it will be a death sentence as grouping becomes more difficult and people leave because of it making grouping more difficult.

Most F2Pers eventually spend some money at least to be able to post more auctions and for the extra 2 character slots (my first purchase of $6.50). They then might screw something up royally and have to pay to fix it (like binding an unsuppressed PLIS to a character you want to delete so have to buy Shared Bank - my second purchase of $20). Finally, the F2Pers might come into some money or want to treat themselves - like my Christmas present to myself of a 5k TP pack to take advantage of double points and 50% sales.

Each F2Per that plays is an investment to Turbine. Let them play and maybe they spend some money later. Certainly if we don't let them play then they'll go play some other game and the likelihood of them spending money here later drops to almost 0. It's a business model, it's successful, DDO would be dead without it.

F2Pers - current and former - are responsible for DDO being alive today, where's our thanks from you VIP mob?

Edit: Finally, finally, us F2Pers/Freemiums might farm enough unbound currency to trade it to you VIP/lots of disposable income mob for TP so that you can have your P2W and we can have our F2P.

[Vormaerin]

How do you not, when some of those cost more than 500 TP, and the rest close to 500?
I'd really appreciate at least a discount to VIP's on all vanity items.

Come on, I pay monthly and I could only afford one Armor Kit per month with the TP grant? That's just terrible.

The armor kits are insanely priced. There is 0 chance I'd ever buy one as a premium player. If they were kits attached to my character instead of to items, I'd probably look at it differently.

I'd definitely rather have the cosmetic tabs from LotRO.

[Krell]

Some posts lately got me thinking.

This game can be played for free and can do so for quite some time.
However it is not really free.

-snip-

Although I'm not sure what the original problem is that you are referring to, I do agree that this is a business model that allows people to try the game at no financial risk, then if they like what they see, spend money to experience more of the game.

I think it is a good way to let people try the game, better than a free trial where you are cut off after the time is up. There does need to be a certain percent of people who like what they see and choose to pay to see more in order for the model to work. I'm guessing there is another healthy percent of subscribers who pay extra for things that enhance their game experience. I think it is a given that the model needs to be profitable for the doors to stay open. That applies to any business. My guess is that Turbine showed a consistent profit for a respectable period of time before Warner Brothers decided to buy the company and make the investment required for the expansion pack. I hope that the investment was profitable so that we can see similar investment in the future. When I look at sources of entertainment that I pay for, DDO has the best price per hour ratio for me. If I was going to get worked up about the price of some entertainment, it would be over my cable bill ;).

[parvo]

...It has to do with maths...

I fought through your post until right there...

[wolfy42]

Somewhat this.

Another way of looking at it is that Turbine is giving players whom can't otherwise afford to pay their keep access to the game so that you VIP mob have more people to group with and feel awesome around (not difficult to feel ridiculously cool around most F2P accounts due to severe gear/build limitations).

It's a pretty sure thing that if the game population falls under a certain amount then it will be a death sentence as grouping becomes more difficult and people leave because of it making grouping more difficult.

Most F2Pers eventually spend some money at least to be able to post more auctions and for the extra 2 character slots (my first purchase of $6.50). They then might screw something up royally and have to pay to fix it (like binding an unsuppressed PLIS to a character you want to delete so have to buy Shared Bank - my second purchase of $20). Finally, the F2Pers might come into some money or want to treat themselves - like my Christmas present to myself of a 5k TP pack to take advantage of double points and 50% sales.

Each F2Per that plays is an investment to Turbine. Let them play and maybe they spend some money later. Certainly if we don't let them play then they'll go play some other game and the likelihood of them spending money here later drops to almost 0. It's a business model, it's successful, DDO would be dead without it.

F2Pers - current and former - are responsible for DDO being alive today, where's our thanks from you VIP mob?

Edit: Finally, finally, us F2Pers/Freemiums might farm enough unbound currency to trade it to you VIP/lots of disposable income mob for TP so that you can have your P2W and we can have our F2P.

I disagree strongly that F2pers are responsible for DDO being alive today.

I KNOW that VIP players (from before and after F2p was available) ARE responsible for the game being available to everyone today...because we KNOW they spent money on the game. Yes, f2p players have as well....but how much they have spent compared to the VIP players after F2p was made available we don't know. Both are probably responsible for the game doing so well.....and you really can't tell which group (if you even want to seperate them) is more responsible. You can tell for sure that EVERY vip player has spent money on the game though....so every one of them is at least somewhat responsible for it still being around.

Before F2p was available....everyone was VIP...and if we hadn't been, and we hadn't paid for the game...it would never have had a chance to become F2P.

I'm not a big fan of P2w (pay 2 win), and only want to see convinience bonuses for VIP players. Things that make it easier for them to play, saves them time etc. The whole opening on elite thing is a great example. It saves VIP players time but doesn't give a direct power bonus to players.

My main problem is that many of us VIP players are supporting this game because we love it....but are getting little if any bonus from being VIP at this point. I'm ok with paying each month for a game I am playing...and I'll continue to do so, but I would like some perks that actually affect me as well. The elite opening is nice for new chars I make.......but other then that I really don't get much from my VIP status.

I think a discount in the DDO store along with 500 points a month might be a good option. The movement speed bonus is silly...absolutely silly. Even before you get the pendent of time you'll be moving around town at +25% movement speed (even without bonuses from wolf forms, monk bonus, barbarian bonus etc)....and another 10% is going to make little to no difference. Once you get the pendent it's not going to matter half the time because I already rubber band with half my chars when running around public areas.


I'm not knocking F2p players (especially premium players).....in fact, I think premium players are very important (and many are previous VIP players who just realized they were getting nothing from being VIP anymore really). I do think that if we are going to keep VIP around, we should have some advantage that players get who have unlocked all content already at this point. I think loyal customers who have proven they are willing to support this game over a long period of time should be acknowledged. Not with direct advantages in game, but with things that make the gaming experience more fun or take out some of the time consuming frustrating aspects of the game.

A few ideas:

Reduce the auction house percentage taken off the top when you sell stuff (maybe by 10%) for VIPs.

Increase exp across the board for VIP players (a 10% bonus sounds good) on top of all other exp bonuses.

Reduce the cost of all store items by 10% for all VIPs.

Finally add the silly 10% movement speed bonus in public areas and make it a whole 10% package.

I think none of that would be too advantagous...but would make it so it's worth it for everyone to be VIP.

[Vormaerin]

I
My main problem is that many of us VIP players are supporting this game because we love it....but are getting little if any bonus from being VIP at this point.

This is incorrect. You are getting access to all the adventure packs, the shared bank, druids, monks, warforged, half elves, half orcs, 10 character slots (instead of 4), the epic destiny changes in any public place, the elite opening, and now a minor run speed bonus.

If I stopped subscribing today, I would need to spend between 20 and 25 thousand turbine points to get the stuff I have right now. And the only reason I know its not over 25k is because the expansion preorder pack included a few thousand points of content.

That's $200 upfront costs. Meaning that I have to play another two years without spending a dime to break even compared to the cost of a sub. And not spending a dime isn't realistic, because there'll probably be 6 to 8 updates in that time period.

Premium's advantage is that you can pick and choose. It lets you add things as you need them and can afford them. If you play long enough (a period of years), you can eventually outpace VIP for overall cost, assuming you assign no value to not having stuff the whole time.

Its also good if you only play a limited portion of the content. Zerger power levelers don't have any use for Catacombs or 3BC or various other packs like that. A very casual player may only have 1 or 2 characters and never see the lvl 16+ stuff.

But trying to claim that VIPs aren't getting value for money really, really involves some serious mental contortions over what constitutes "value."

Summary: The VIP's money isn't better than the premium's money. The premium player is spending as much money as the subscriber or they aren't playing the whole game.

[Ranncore]

This is incorrect. You are getting access to all the adventure packs, the shared bank, druids, monks, warforged, half elves, half orcs, 10 character slots (instead of 4), the epic destiny changes in any public place, the elite opening, and now a minor run speed bonus.

If I stopped subscribing today, I would need to spend between 20 and 25 thousand turbine points to get the stuff I have right now. And the only reason I know its not over 25k is because the expansion preorder pack included a few thousand points of content.

That's $200 upfront costs. Meaning that I have to play another two years without spending a dime to break even compared to the cost of a sub. And not spending a dime isn't realistic, because there'll probably be 6 to 8 updates in that time period.

Premium's advantage is that you can pick and choose. It lets you add things as you need them and can afford them. If you play long enough (a period of years), you can eventually outpace VIP for overall cost, assuming you assign no value to not having stuff the whole time.

Its also good if you only play a limited portion of the content. Zerger power levelers don't have any use for Catacombs or 3BC or various other packs like that. A very casual player may only have 1 or 2 characters and never see the lvl 16+ stuff.

But trying to claim that VIPs aren't getting value for money really, really involves some serious mental contortions over what constitutes "value."

Summary: The VIP's money isn't better than the premium's money. The premium player is spending as much money as the subscriber or they aren't playing the whole game.

The VIP perks are nice, and honestly, I would still be VIP if I wasn't so disappointed with the expansion. The shared bank is almost essential for moving items around between characters - but since a large portion of the new loot is BTC, this isn't so much of an issue anymore. And since the new loot totally dwarfs the old loot (they even went so far as to nerf the old loot to make sure), that leaves me with little desire to run the old content, and little necessity for a shared bank to move those useless items around anymore.

I used turbine points to purchase Shroud, for example. I regret it already. I haven't bothered to run my Shroud flagging or the raid since then. There's just nothing left there for me - and a few months ago, this was some of the most powerful equipment in the game.

I can't recommend anyone buy Gianthold. Nothing much to see there, anymore.

Or Restless Isles, or Amrath... the list goes on.

The packs are still useful to TRs for XP, and that's about it.

The old packs are nice if you want to experience new content and haven't been there before, but in that respect they are still only as useful as the new packs.

There's not much loot left worth acquiring from any of the old content, and to a lot of players, that means those packs aren't worth buying.

If the only content Turbine wants to sell is the new content, they are headed in the right direction. If they WANT players to drop their subscriptions, and instead only buy the newest content as it becomes available, they are headed in the right direction.

If they want to maintain a healthy list of LFMs for content that spans all levels, they might consider going back to pre-MOTU packs to spice things up a bit. This would encourage sales of the packs, and encourage players to run the content again.

When is the last time you saw an LFM for Titan? Or HOX? Or SOS?

I don't think trivializing old content is the right way to gain support for new content. If the new content is good, players will gravitate towards it naturally. But apparently even Turbine didn't think the new content was good enough.

In short, if I was to advise a new player on what he should buy from the DDO store (and at this point I do not recommend buying anything from Turbine), I would tell him NOT to go VIP, and to buy ONLY the newest content. Because Turbine is making the same mistake that many MMOs have made before it - making the new content the only content worth running.

[Wickednisse]

Nice post above there. :)

One thing that was mooted as a potential perk for VIP at the Site That Shall Not Be Named, which I think is a good idea, is that of VIP only cosmetic pets. Not as a drop, not for purchase. Just your own, your precious, your precious cosmetic pet.

I think the elite opening is a decent perk, and the +10% move speed is a nice touch. The little things make a great deal of difference to the way VIPs feel loved and cuddled.

I'd settle for a Coyle pet. With all the right emotes. The number of VIP subscriptions would skyrocket. I'm talking record setting.

[noinfo]

This game would be dead if it wasn't free to play, you know. Then nobody would get paid.

Sorry your misinformed here, the game would be dead if it did not move to a hybrid micro transaction system to complement the subscription system.

People who play for free are welcome but do not contribute to the development of the game outside of providing a few more people to group with.

[Ranncore]

Sorry your misinformed here, the game would be dead if it did not move to a hybrid micro transaction system to complement the subscription system.

People who play for free are welcome but do not contribute to the development of the game outside of providing a few more people to group with.

The (very functional) idea is that people who play for free end up buying content.

And the reason that the game has prospered since the move to F2P is because the idea worked. A large portion end up buying something.

People who play for free are all potential customers, looking right at the content available to buy. It's the best advertisement DDO could possibly have campaigned, and they didn't have to pay any outside website for marketing space.

The relative success of DDO since its move to Free to Play, and the fact that other major MMOs have begun subscribing to the same system, is evidence that the system works.

I don't know who first started the F2P, or tiered subscription system, but frankly, it was brilliant.

[sdrocky]

I went VIP last month. Already own all the packs so it wasnt about access. More about support and opening on elite first time. Oh and the 1 hour timeout is nice to. As is the additional 6 char slots.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Someone has to pay the qa staff.


Whoa! DDO got a QA staff? When did that happen? Sorry, posting quasi-cute banter about the Patriots doesn't constitute professional QA work.

I've been on DDO break enjoying summer for the last month. In that time, I spent $0 on DDO. That should more than cover the salaries of the DDO QA staff for that time. People who perform like unpaid interns should be compensated like unpaid interns.

[wolfy42]

This is incorrect. You are getting access to all the adventure packs, the shared bank, druids, monks, warforged, half elves, half orcs, 10 character slots (instead of 4), the epic destiny changes in any public place, the elite opening, and now a minor run speed bonus.

If I stopped subscribing today, I would need to spend between 20 and 25 thousand turbine points to get the stuff I have right now. And the only reason I know its not over 25k is because the expansion preorder pack included a few thousand points of content.

That's $200 upfront costs. Meaning that I have to play another two years without spending a dime to break even compared to the cost of a sub. And not spending a dime isn't realistic, because there'll probably be 6 to 8 updates in that time period.

Premium's advantage is that you can pick and choose. It lets you add things as you need them and can afford them. If you play long enough (a period of years), you can eventually outpace VIP for overall cost, assuming you assign no value to not having stuff the whole time.

Its also good if you only play a limited portion of the content. Zerger power levelers don't have any use for Catacombs or 3BC or various other packs like that. A very casual player may only have 1 or 2 characters and never see the lvl 16+ stuff.

But trying to claim that VIPs aren't getting value for money really, really involves some serious mental contortions over what constitutes "value."

Summary: The VIP's money isn't better than the premium's money. The premium player is spending as much money as the subscriber or they aren't playing the whole game.

I did not say ALL VIPs were getting nothing, just most long term ones.....that have already bought all the adventure packs etc. I have all the adventure packs open, the races (except I think H-orc or H-elf...one of them) and 14 character slots (not sure how many I would lose going down to premium). As I mentioned what I gain from VIP is elite opening and the additional character slots....that is pretty much it. I'm not the only one.

Many VIP's have taken advantage of deals over the years to pick up most everything you get from being VIP. The current VIP subscription works best for casual players who play for a bit, then stop, and come back and play again. Long term players don't gain much from VIP status at all (or at least wouldn't if they had used their TP over the years to purchase content).

All I'm saying is that having some additional perks for being a LONG TERM vip member would be a good idea. Short term is fine...if your just casually being VIP every once and awhile you get alot of bang for your buck.

I've been VIP for over 6 years. While I have not constantly subscribed, I have over 4 years of actual subscription time under my belt at least. I've also bought TP many times (A few hundred dollars worth at this point probably). The total amount I have spent on the game is probably over $1000 at this point.

It was totally worth it.

I do think people who have spent that much deserve some bonuses. Not power bonuses but some kind of recognition, and some advantage for doing so. I don't think it has to be JUST vip mind you....but VIP subscription charges should count towards the total money spent...which is what rewards are based on.

That would allow premium members to get the rewards as well....as long as they have spent an equal amount of money that is.

That being said....I doubt many premium members have spent over $1000 on DDO (maybe some...but not many).

It's easy to just say "Hey, I would like some perks that actually affect me for being VIP"...thats an easy fast statement and solution...and would make me happy at least. Honestly though, you are right....no reason why Premium members who have spent an equal amount of money shouldn't get the same bonuses.

I'd also say that Premium members that spend over X dollars should gain full VIP bonuses as well at this point. If you spend over $200 total on turbine points as a premium member, you should get the base advantages of VIP without the subscription (the ones we have right now). That does not include things like adventure packs/races etc.....but just the ability to open on elite etc.

In fact maybe just spending $100 should allow you to open on hard, and $200 for elite.

Additional bonuses should be implemented at higher amounts, but the total amount spent needs to include VIP subscriptions (including subscriptions from the past).

Maybe $100 spent gives hard opening, $200 elite, $300 gives a 10% discount on the store all the time, $500 spent gives a 10% exp bonus for all quests, $750 gives a 20% reduction in repair costs and $1000 gives an additional 10 shared bank slots and 2 bonus character slots or something.

I'm just saying it would be nice if we had some bonus for being long term players...and the current VIP setup is not working. I certainly don't care at all about the 10% movement speed bonus...it won't ever effect me (Even with brand new characters), so I don't see it as a perk. I'm paying for VIP status because I want to support the game...but honestly I could pay just as much for pure TP and still support the game (but have more TP for it). My argument that I'm playing more then enough hours to justify paying for VIP is not seeming very valid on further review....since I could support the game just as much buying TP....and end up with more for my efforts.

To be honest....$10 a month isn't worth me worrying about it. I'm happy with my current setup, and fine with the value I get for my money. I'm going to stop worrying about this and just play the game.

[Vormaerin]

When is the last time you saw an LFM for Titan? Or HOX? Or SOS?



I don't think I've seen a Titan LFM in about 3 years and I'm not sure I've ever seen an SOS LFM. HOX, maybe a month ago. Not sure.

Keeping the old content "endgame" is unsustainable. How many years now have we labored under the oppressive fist of the Shroud? It came out 4 years ago. The level cap was 16. Its not completely irrelevant today. There were three shroud LFMs up when I logged in a little while ago.

Titan was freaking Mod 2. Not Update 2. Mod 2. The level cap was 12. You think lvl cap 12 content needs to be relevant at lvl 25, five years later?

You do realize, of course, that the opposite complaint is alive and well on these forums, right? "OMG, this new stuff isn't totally better than my greensteel weapon." The game can't have it both ways.

[CaptainSpacePony]

As a VIP, I would not play this game without the population than F2P provides.

As a premium player, I agree 100%.

[Nullaer]

Some posts lately got me thinking.

This game can be played for free and can do so for quite some time.
However it is not really free.

Someone has to pay the developers.
Someone has to pay the qa staff.
Someone has to pay the gms and forum moderators.
Someone has to pay the managers (eep).
Someone has to pay for server space and bandwidth use.
Someone has to pay for the network admins.
Someone has to pay for the artists designing the look of the game.

Even if the game got no new content, you'd still need to pay for manhours (fixes, maintenance of network, etc) and server upkeep (bandwidth, hardware).

SOMEONE has to pay. It is not really free, it cannot be free.
The someone is:
1. The VIP you scourn for getting perks you don't get (a thread whining about the 10% speed boost? Ridiculous!!!)
2. The premium player who buys the packs.
3. The player (even VIP spend TP on top of monthly, I know I do) who buys the esthetics like armor kits or nicer hair.
4. The player who buys convenience items that take a bit of a grind to get like hearts, small mats, essences, etc.
5. The player who buys what some consider pay to win: tomes, mana pots, hires that don't increase scaling as much, higher cure pots, undead cure pots, blood of dragons, fate tomes, etc.

I'm sorry to tell you but not paying a dime to Turbine is not some holy mission. Someone is supporting your choice not to pay but play. I personally get a tad stingy when I'm mad at turbine (you know what you did! Lol), but if I continue to play I try to give them the VIP fee at least to pay for the server farm if nothing else.

This isn't an offline game that you paid your 20-60 dollars for and then costs nobody any resources for you to play for 10 years if you want.
And this really has nothing to do with being mad at turbine for bait and switch and other questionable decisions.

It has to do with maths. If I want to hurt them I stop playing and paying. If I continue to play and pay nothing, I'm using up resources someone else is paying for. And no, I'm not even going to excuse it by saying I paid a lot over the last year and that should last them for another year. The money I gave already supported the other X amount of non-paying players and new improvements... The money is not in some bank they can take out and doll out slower over the next year.

I don't mind that the game gives free options and that I subsidize them. There's many kids and people who can't afford it... I can so why shouldn't I support something I enjoy? But let us not lie to ourselves and claim that when we give zero dollars to turbine that we are actually playing for free.

There is no such thing as free in an MMO. Those frivolous options (oh man, I forgot the pets!!!!) that entice some to part with money is what continue to keep the servers running.

When I think of that, I get a little less mad that I paid $80 for an expansion that messed with some of my toons and gave me outright headaches with the bugs.

/Standing ovation, and +1

I'm glad you took the time to write this and point it out to others.

[DanteEnFuego]

+1 OP.

I would love to see some stats on average hours per month and player counts per server based on VIP, Premium and Non-paying...

[deahamlet]

People got a bit off track, which I don't mind but some sound like they're misinterpreting my original post.

I make no distinction between a premium player who spends a couple bucks here and there every once in a while and the VIP who pays regularly every month. They both PAY. Aka give Turbine some money. More, less, it's something.
I wasn't saying not paying is evil nor that free to play as a model is flawed or something. I was saying that in the end we can't all be playing for free. At least some of us have to pay. Getting all proud and boa****l about choosing not to pay for something you enjoy when you can afford it... Is something I find distasteful. It is not turbine's managers they are hurting with this, but the game, its future... And in the end the rest of us pay for the ones who can't or won't. Doesn't mean free players owe VIP or premium players anything.
I solo a ton. I reserve groups for friends and raids. I met most friends raiding. I don't know any endgame raider that has not spent money on the game. They farm tokens for hearts, but they paid for pots and armor kits and many many adventure packs. Most people I know in game who have paid minimally are those who simply cannot afford to.

Someone said that VIP and premium owe the free players the abundance of lfms. Low level lfms surely, but most people who stay... Eventually pay. Then you get the ones boasting about never giving turbine any money ever over the forums... I am puzzled by who they think subsidizes their fun times in an online game. Who we really owe is the ones who made the game fun for the newbies in groups, the ones who recommended ddo, the people who have made this game a tad addictive :P... Cause that's how we get new partners in raids and groups.

As to some of the funny comments. Look. The stuff that has gone on live at times should have never left the programmers' desks let alone made it live. I am still appalled that they fix stuff and then load the wrong version on Lamma or live. That is certainly not on qa. Nonetheless. If you play the game, it has to be up, they do fix some things (unfortunately lost in the things they don't fix or break again), they do bring us updates, and they do have employees. If the game is so horrific you cannot bring yourself to pay for what you use.... Then perhaps it is time to stop playing. And if you don't play, you're not using resources and so my original post has nothing to do with you.

To me it is simple. I consider my 10 dollars a server fee. If they ****ed me off, I don't spend anything else. If they made something really enticing and didn't **** me off, I buy whatever I find appealing. I'm not saying everyone should be the same. But what I was clearly stating is that someone has to pay. No such thing as free. And no difference if it's a fixed monthly sum or 20 dollars every 6 months on a few packs or perks.

And I used "maths" in gest. Mathematics was one of my favourite subject in university, second only to computers. I do like to make funny low-brow comments for amusement and it never fails that someone goes on assuming things about my intelligence based on one expression. It is one of the most fun pranks and experiments on society to throw silly things like that and see the inevitable one or two people jumping to conclusions.

The idea stands. A company cannot exist without income. A company goes bankrupt without profit after a while (assuming not charity). Since there are no ads in this game, it comes out logically that the ones who pay are paying for everyone. So when someone plays for free, someone else paid for that game time.

There is no pride in choosing to not support a product you enjoy on a daily basis. I said choosing, which implies one has the finances to pay but won't.

[wolfy42]

I agree mostly Deahamlet, although I do think you could have some pride in making it to a high level etc without spending any money as an achievement by itself, after doing so (and enjoying the game for so much time) I would hope most people would then support the game.

Challenge in DDO can sometimes be a bit hard to come by...and challenging yourself with something like getting as far as possible without spending any money could be fun.

You are right, someone has to pay for this game. Both premium and VIP players have done so. There is no real way to tell how much a player has supported DDO though, other then their forum creation date (and that doesn't say how much time they were active). Other games do have ways to tell how much a player has invested though (having bronze/silver/gold/platinum memberships etc) and it would be nice if we had something like that in DDO as well. Having perks to go with it would be nice, but just some acknowledgement (even if it's just in their description when you view them or something) would be great.

I like how Path of Exile has different pets based on how much you have spent. I actually don't care at all about pets, and wouldn't have one out if I had the option, but giving players a free pet (of different colors based on total money spent) would be nice since it would acknowledge the support the player has given DDO over the years.

Adding in small perks for each tier you reach....would just be a bonus.

[Mastikator]

I disagree strongly that F2pers are responsible for DDO being alive today.

The f2p model is what is responsible for DDO being alive, not the f2p players.
The f2p model lets new people play the game for a while, get invested in it and by the time they're mid level they must either start paying, grind like there's no tomorrow or leave. The f2p model is responsible for there being enough premium and VIP player to keep this game alive.

[Forzah]

The f2p model is what is responsible for DDO being alive, not the f2p players.
The f2p model lets new people play the game for a while, get invested in it and by the time they're mid level they must either start paying, grind like there's no tomorrow or leave. The f2p model is responsible for there being enough premium and VIP player to keep this game alive.

I agree. For me personally, if I were forced to pay upfront, I would never have started playing this game. However, f2p gave me the chance to get introduced to the game. Now I buy a pack every now and then from the store; sales Turbine wouldn't have made without f2p. I'm sure this holds for several other people as well.

[LFKnowledge]

All players, whether they are F2P-not-spending-a-penny all the way to big-spender-money-is-no-object, contribute in some way to sustaining and keeping this game going.

Your point of F2P being subsidized by VIP dollars is not true. It is a trade off.

F2P that don't spend money on the game still contribute their time. Yes, all players contribute their time as well.
And you may think that a F2P player's contributed time might not be worth as much, since they are not also giving money to Turbine. However, their contributions keep the game going.

How? They provide ambiance, environment, interactive players, someone to group with, someone to chat with, someone to trade with, someone to teach or mentor, someone to make fun of, etc; the reasons go on and on.

I'll provide some examples.
An experienced favor farmer running the 100 favor quests would make a VIP's elite zerg LFM of the first few quests very fast.
A F2P capped at 12 due to lack of content may constantly reroll and be happy being an altaholic. They have fun running the Harbor quests over and over. Guess what? They could be pulling random loot that are nice twink items for TRs.
Some people log on and don't feel like questing, maybe just chatting. General chat with crickets is no fun.


Why did Turbine switch business models to F2P? Why are a host of other MMOs doing the same?

[Crazeee]

Now who would make this game appear alive and populated, if it wasn't for people giving it a free try or others farming TP? I'm sure it's not your capped character in Eveningstar. And the few TRs and new rolled characters don't cut it, either.

Would you still be here if the game was almost deserted when you started it? I know I wouldn't. And then I wouldn't pay a dime to Turbine. So please stop this F2P hating. And please don't all act like you would have come and stayed with this game if it was dead. The reason why most people even posting in this thread in the first place IS because of F2P!

[Lleren]

In any MMO, part of the content is the other players.

[deahamlet]

Clearly, you do not know me.
I've yet to party with a TP farmer. TRs run the low level content over and over. I don't see the difference between crazy tr zergers who are not newbie friendly and TP on his 100tp dash zerger who is not newbie friendly.
I didn't say "VIP keep the game going", I said people who pay keep it financed.
I didn't say nobody should play for free.
I did say that the game has to be paid at some point. Bills have to be paid.

I stayed to play ddo because of many reasons and none of them having to do with the amount of players available in the harbor. I stayed because I like dnd, I liked the character options and the gameplay. I became hooked when I got to higher levels and started partying with groups who were sensible and fun. Low level groups were terrifying "know it, byoh" and other jargon I had to learn. Level 12+ were filled with people who were having fun, knew the game, had bounded together in guilds... My first guild was very newbie friendly and was the reason I started to really enjoy grouping. We each helped buy each other passes for whoever didn't have a pack. And none of these people that got me hooked on the social aspect ever said "oh I refuse to give turbine any money!". No, they gave when they could, even if that meant just once a year.

Is the free to play model a problem? Not really.
Would the game exist if we all farmed tp or only played free content? No.
Are people who don't pay some lower citizens? NO.
Do i like entitlement attitudes about how it's something to be proud of that you never give turbine money even though you could? No.
Is this model more successful? Possible. Wow still makes more money and has more subs :p. but this model depends on turbine enticing us into giving some money.

The last couple of comments sounded extremely defensive and like you really didn't bother reading the op. Or maybe the discussion on VIP got you all riled up. I don't know.

[Quetzacoala]

The game isn't actually free to play, the f2p is just a cleverly disguised trial version. I myself realized this once my first character hit level 12, suddenly there was nothing to do but start paying.

This is not true.

Any player can theoretically earn an unlimited supply of Turbine points without spending a dime simply by repeatedly earning 100 favor; since this mechanic exists, players can eventually purchase the "essential" adventure packs, such as the Vale of Twilight and the Ruins of Gianthold, and thus reach level 20.

When I first started playing as a free-to-play player, I managed to purchase two adventure packs and the warforged race due to this system. Since becoming premium, while I do spend money on the game, the favor I get from leveling my characters still grants me a significant amount of Turbine points.

[LFKnowledge]

Do i like entitlement attitudes about how it's something to be proud of that you never give turbine money even though you could? No.


Clearly, no one knows anyone well in the forums. Discussion is based on points brought up in the posts, nothing personal directed at anyone.

Thanks for providing more personal background on your experience and viewpoint, but I'd like to just point out that the problem with above quote is that you didn't have to single out a specific group of players.

I've previously listed how they contribute to keep the game going.

Leave the statement as you don't like entitlement attitudes from all kinds of players, and that would make more sense. Everyone contributes to the game in some way, and Turbine already has it set up where depending on your account type, you are given certain level of perks and account access.

[Ausdoerrt]

The last couple of comments sounded extremely defensive and like you really didn't bother reading the op.

OK then, I'll quote the OP.


It has to do with maths. If I want to hurt them I stop playing and paying. If I continue to play and pay nothing, I'm using up resources someone else is paying for. And no, I'm not even going to excuse it by saying I paid a lot over the last year and that should last them for another year. The money I gave already supported the other X amount of non-paying players and new improvements... The money is not in some bank they can take out and doll out slower over the next year.

OK, by that logic all the Freemium players who already own all the content are free-loaders who are eating up the game's resources. That's BS. The system allows you to drop the cash once and then enjoy all the content you own indefinitely for as long as the game servers are online. That's as legitimate as any other purchase.


I don't mind that the game gives free options and that I subsidize them. There's many kids and people who can't afford it... I can so why shouldn't I support something I enjoy? But let us not lie to ourselves and claim that when we give zero dollars to turbine that we are actually playing for free.

OK, now you just sound arrogant, patronizing and overall objectionable.

I'm sorry, but ignoring the fact that your entire argument sounds like you just read something from Friedman without fully comprehending it (the whole zero-sum model you offer is simplified to the point of being unusable), the second half of your post has attitude issues (intended or not). If you want to have responses that aren't overly defensive, maybe you should try posting that's constructive, respectful and well-argued first.

[Loriac]

This is not true.

Any player can theoretically earn an unlimited supply of Turbine points without spending a dime simply by repeatedly earning 100 favor; since this mechanic exists, players can eventually purchase the "essential" adventure packs, such as the Vale of Twilight and the Ruins of Gianthold, and thus reach level 20.

When I first started playing as a free-to-play player, I managed to purchase two adventure packs and the warforged race due to this system. Since becoming premium, while I do spend money on the game, the favor I get from leveling my characters still grants me a significant amount of Turbine points.


This strikes me as penny-wise, pound-foolish.

Most people can make 10x more from a minimum wage job than from TP farming. This may not be true of course for non-western countries, or if you are too young to work and have a fixed allowance, but the typical player gains nothing from farming TP as if it was a job.



All players, whether they are F2P-not-spending-a-penny all the way to big-spender-money-is-no-object, contribute in some way to sustaining and keeping this game going.

Your point of F2P being subsidized by VIP dollars is not true. It is a trade off.

F2P that don't spend money on the game still contribute their time. Yes, all players contribute their time as well.
And you may think that a F2P player's contributed time might not be worth as much, since they are not also giving money to Turbine. However, their contributions keep the game going.

How? They provide ambiance, environment, interactive players, someone to group with, someone to chat with, someone to trade with, someone to teach or mentor, someone to make fun of, etc; the reasons go on and on.

I'll provide some examples.
An experienced favor farmer running the 100 favor quests would make a VIP's elite zerg LFM of the first few quests very fast.
A F2P capped at 12 due to lack of content may constantly reroll and be happy being an altaholic. They have fun running the Harbor quests over and over. Guess what? They could be pulling random loot that are nice twink items for TRs.
Some people log on and don't feel like questing, maybe just chatting. General chat with crickets is no fun.


Why did Turbine switch business models to F2P? Why are a host of other MMOs doing the same?

F2P don't 'contribute their time'. This wording suggests that its some kind of obligation on them to play DDO when they could be doing something else. They enjoy playing the game, which is why they do it. For some of them, they would not play if they had to pay upfront, so F2P lowers the opportunity cost for them to play, but doesn't in fact mean that they are 'contributing their time'.

Whilst some F2P players are good players, there is a lot of bad stuff being brought in at low levels. Low level PUGs with F2P are notorious for players' cluelessness, to the point where many TRs now don't even bother to group up until mid-teens as its just not worth it to PUG at low level. Most TRs already have twink items, and in any case twink items are not necessary for most TRs. (I discovered the truth of this when I TR'd a couple of days ago - I decided to do winter Korthos w/o remembering that I'd have no access to my bank til sunnyside, but it was still straightforward to run all of korthos on elite using only starter gear given you by the game).

General chat is becoming disgraceful these days. Whilst I still leave it turned on, I note that it is constantly spammed by people who seem to have nothing to do but log in to DDO and update complete strangers about things in their life that said strangers don't care about at all. You end up pitying such people rather than being angry with them, but its more than a stretch to claim that they 'add to the ambience'.

The switch to F2P was about getting more people to try out the game with the desired outcome being that they convert to paying customers (VIP or premium). MMOs have become a very competitive space, and getting people to spend the time to try yours out is more and more difficult. The F2P model allows someone to try out your game at zero cost, so makes it more likely they will. Beyond that though, there is no long term benefit if they don't convert to being a net revenue source for your business at some point.

[deahamlet]

OK, now you just sound arrogant, patronizing and overall objectionable.
.

I said "something". That being the game. I support the game when I can afford to by buying things. Not other people, I don't support other people, I support the game.
I would not feel comfortable continuing to play without a penny spent for another year because I already spent x amount already. That is me.
I never said people can't buy all the packs and continue never spending a dime on anything other than packs. I'm not sure how profitable the game would be if all we ever bought were packs and nothing else... Probably not very considering how slow turbine was at releasing new content before u12. But people who bought packs and are enjoying them already gave turbine some money, I don't see a huge issue. Turbine brings out new things to try to convince those players to give them more money. But some money was spent supporting a game they enjoy and play.
I am not keen on people who could spend five or ten dollars on the game without any sacrifice but don't as a "look at me, I got it all for free, I'm not paying turbine any money, ha!". There are people who cannot afford even VIP, let alone all the packs even over a few months. That's reality, I don't have an issue with people not paying if they cannot. Me mentioning that such players exist is not some attitude, simple reality and I was making it clear that I don't support the idea that everyone should pay or gtfo if they cannot afford it. Obviously you decided to read malicious attitude and such into it. I used to be one of those people who couldn't afford five dollars a month on a game and was thrilled to play quake for free online back in the day.

You took what you saw as implied attitude and insults and replied with outright insults.

[Gremmlynn]

I think the "big deal" may be those who claim "F2P saved DDO!".

This should maybe read "F2Pers who bought TP and became Premium players saved DDO!" :DNo the F2P payment model saved DDO because it got a lot of potential customers to try the game and was set up in a way in which spending some money was a much better deal than spending no money and allows players to spend money at their own pace.

$5 for an upgrade to premium is a fantastic deal, while the TPs from that plus the front loaded bonus TPs from playing get players involved in the game and used to spending TPs. At that point the ice is broken and it is much easier for most people to spend a bit more here and there as they play.

Really, unless someone came into the game with the goal to not spend any money on it, it's unlikely they'll be around long if unwilling or unable to pay something to enhance game play.

At the same time, those who are playing for free, or little, enhance server populations. Making the game better for many of those who spend a moderate amount or more money on the game. It also likely costs very little more to run the game with non-paying players than with just paying players, or to keep it up with no players at all for that matter.

[Ungood]

The f2p model is what is responsible for DDO being alive, not the f2p players.
The f2p model lets new people play the game for a while, get invested in it and by the time they're mid level they must either start paying, grind like there's no tomorrow or leave. The f2p model is responsible for there being enough premium and VIP player to keep this game alive.

Very well said and very good point.

The model that DDO is using to allow players to buy at their own pace, whatever that pace may be, is about the best model I have ever seen.

I especially like it because as others have pointed out, at some point, more money does not equate to more game, you can't simply pay to win in DDO.

Which is really a great model, I opted to cancel my sub, and go premium after looking into the whole system and how it works, and after a while I realized that the Micro-Purchase model was in fact the best model that an MMO could be built on.

Not only does it allow players control of how much, how little, and how fast they want access to the content, it functions as an motivator for the Development staff to make new content.


I stayed to play ddo because of many reasons and none of them having to do with the amount of players available in the harbor. I stayed because I like dnd, I liked the character options and the gameplay. I became hooked when I got to higher levels and started partying with groups who were sensible and fun. Low level groups were terrifying

Very well said, personally I don't know a single person that said to themselves "Wow there are a lot of people who play this game I think it is worth paying for"

In fact I myself did not opt to spend a cent on the game till I hit 12th as well, when the content thinned out, and I started to build a small social network of friends to run with, and because they had content I did not, I opted to buy into the system to run with them.

Nowadays, while I enjoy pugging, I am just as willing to solo, I am not sure why, but I am more prone to Pug at the mid to later levels then I am ever motivated to pug at the early levels.

Not sure why, but most early level pugs are really a roll of the dice with what you get, from outright horrific to best pug ever. Normally by the mid levels you end up with a bit more leveling of the playing field.

[Vint]

Now who would make this game appear alive and populated, if it wasn't for people giving it a free try or others farming TP? I'm sure it's not your capped character in Eveningstar. And the few TRs and new rolled characters don't cut it, either.

Would you still be here if the game was almost deserted when you started it? I know I wouldn't. And then I wouldn't pay a dime to Turbine. So please stop this F2P hating. And please don't all act like you would have come and stayed with this game if it was dead. The reason why most people even posting in this thread in the first place IS because of F2P!

I agree with the comment that the f2p model saved this game from going under but, I would have more fun playing a dead game than grouping with half of the crowd that f2p brought.

[Gremmlynn]

Whoa! DDO got a QA staff? When did that happen? Sorry, posting quasi-cute banter about the Patriots doesn't constitute professional QA work.

I've been on DDO break enjoying summer for the last month. In that time, I spent $0 on DDO. That should more than cover the salaries of the DDO QA staff for that time. People who perform like unpaid interns should be compensated like unpaid interns.Without seeing how bad things were messed up before they got to QA, how can you comment on how bad QA is. They may be preforming miracles to get what they start with to work as good as it does in the time the suits give them to do it.

So, better to say someone in DDO development is doing an awful job than pointing fingers without having the facts.

[Ew_vastano]

Without seeing how bad things were messed up before they got to QA, how can you comment on how bad QA is. They may be preforming miracles to get what they start with to work as good as it does in the time the suits give them to do it.

So, better to say someone in DDO development is doing an awful job than pointing fingers without having the facts.

Quality control is what qa is all about i have worked in quality controll before
the only people who get the hasle when things are let through is, quite correctly, qa

if I allow rubish through that means i am not doing my job properly and shouldnt be being paid. at the place i was would have been made reduntant extremely quickly

[JasonJi72]

I have spent a few hundred since ddo went f2p, and not one penny beforehand. Now I am vip, and have bought most of the packs, classes and races. I will go back to premium and then back to vip again. It all depends on how much time I have to play.

DDO makes a lot more money now that the game is "free". Even the people who never drop a dime are contributing to the success of the game, because there are more people to play with. It is very hard to get all the goodies by going only f2p, but it is possible. That is what I like about this model.

I will never play a game without a f2p option... ever. If you want my business, show me the goods.

[Terebinthia]

snip

I will never play a game without a f2p option... ever. If you want my business, show me the goods.

This is very much how I feel now, given I have severe time constraints these days.

[Gremmlynn]

Quality control is what qa is all about i have worked in quality controll before
the only people who get the hasle when things are let through is, quite correctly, qa

if I allow rubish through that means i am not doing my job properly and shouldnt be being paid. at the place i was would have been made reduntant extremely quicklyWell since someone other than QA made the rubbish in the first place, it seems there is room for the blame to go around. In a good environment QA is redundant and that should be the goal that is being aimed for.

[Ausdoerrt]

I said "something". That being the game. I support the game when I can afford to by buying things. Not other people, I don't support other people, I support the game.

Because implying that all players who aren't VIP (note, a large portion of the player base) are either kids or are too poor to afford it (see bolded part, OP quote 2) is in no way arrogant. Right.

The distinction you're trying to make is completely moot, since the whole point of your OP is to insinuate that those playing for free are doing so at the cost of those who pay (see bolded part, OP quote 1). That's in NO way patronizing. Right.

Both might be simple communication fails. But you did wonder about the angry posters, and I've shown that such responses likely stem from people reading your original post rather than failing to do so. If you want a calmer response, perhaps you need a more reasonable-sounding OP.


You took what you saw as implied attitude and insults and replied with outright insults.

It's not implied if it's basically laid out (see above explanation). Also note how there isn't a single place in my earlier post where I pick at you personally, or try to insult. All it is is a direct response to the OP with an assessment of how it sounds if read as written. Perhaps you shouldn't be so... what's the word? ah yes, 'defensive' about it. http://vlesports.com/images/smilies/trollface.png (sorry, I just HAD to).

[Gremmlynn]

I said "something". That being the game. I support the game when I can afford to by buying things. Not other people, I don't support other people, I support the game.
I would not feel comfortable continuing to play without a penny spent for another year because I already spent x amount already. That is me.
I never said people can't buy all the packs and continue never spending a dime on anything other than packs. I'm not sure how profitable the game would be if all we ever bought were packs and nothing else... Probably not very considering how slow turbine was at releasing new content before u12. But people who bought packs and are enjoying them already gave turbine some money, I don't see a huge issue. Turbine brings out new things to try to convince those players to give them more money. But some money was spent supporting a game they enjoy and play.
I am not keen on people who could spend five or ten dollars on the game without any sacrifice but don't as a "look at me, I got it all for free, I'm not paying turbine any money, ha!". There are people who cannot afford even VIP, let alone all the packs even over a few months. That's reality, I don't have an issue with people not paying if they cannot. Me mentioning that such players exist is not some attitude, simple reality and I was making it clear that I don't support the idea that everyone should pay or gtfo if they cannot afford it. Obviously you decided to read malicious attitude and such into it. I used to be one of those people who couldn't afford five dollars a month on a game and was thrilled to play quake for free online back in the day.

You took what you saw as implied attitude and insults and replied with outright insults.Well thank you for supporting the game I choose to play for free as it lets me spend those entertainment dollars on other things.

[Ungood]

I agree with the comment that the f2p model saved this game from going under but, I would have more fun playing a dead game than grouping with half of the crowd that f2p brought.

Ouch.. Burn. :D

[Ague]

Personally, I don't like the VIP model. I was VIP for the greater part of 3 years. Once I bought MotU, i went Premium because of all the packs that came with the Collector's Edition. I still don't have everything back that I once had as VIP, but I'm close. All but 1 Adventure Pack, Shared Bank/Plat Bank, and a couple character slots. But I fully intend to continue to purchase points when they go on sale so I will be able to buy new content and such. I don't really get into all the fluff, but the MM is very intriguing and if they ever come out with Mindflayer or Beholder pets, I am totally on board with them.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I was once F2P, then bought a few times a "Turbine Point Card", and decided to buy a few Adventure Packs, too.

Personally, to me, this iis the best way : Mainly staying F2P, but still getting Adventure Packs I want.

This has drawbacks, of course. I just mean that some thing are just very expensive, like the Shared Bank (which I still haven't bought because of this).

But overall I'm just fine. :)

(And I think what I do is called "Premium".)

[Ungood]

(And I think what I do is called "Premium".)

Yup. Most players are either Premium or ViP. I personally prefer the Premium means to play the game as it gives me the most choices.

[Mathermune]

Yup. Most players are either Premium or ViP. I personally prefer the Premium means to play the game as it gives me the most choices.

Flexibility was a big part of it for me. Once I buy something it's mine until either the game stops or I stop.

VIP is renting a grand mansion with 12 swimming pools and 4 tennis courts.

Premium is like I have paid the mortgage on a much smaller mansion, with only one swimming pool, but I don't have to pay rent and if I want to add a tennis court, or a new room. I can and it won't be taken off me later.

[Chai]

People poking at the QA staff likely wouldnt be doing so if they had access to the known issue database and could see what was fixed compared to what went live.

I dont believe in free to play either. Free is just a great marketing buzzword. Most will pay money eventually, especially when stuff like epic destinies get rolled out as a pay only feature. I see alot of comments about how they could be making MORE money off these people, but most of them are incorrect due to the fact that it was the F2P marketing that drew in alot of the headcount between 2009 and now in the first place.

[Chai]

Flexibility was a big part of it for me. Once I buy something it's mine until either the game stops or I stop.

VIP is renting a grand mansion with 12 swimming pools and 4 tennis courts.

Premium is like I have paid the mortgage on a much smaller mansion, with only one swimming pool, but I don't have to pay rent and if I want to add a tennis court, or a new room. I can and it won't be taken off me later.

Naaa - both payment plans are renters. If VIP stops paying they dont get kicked out, they get downgraded to the smaller mansion with one pool. When Turbine finally turns the lights off on the last server, neither one is taking their product with them.

Its more like buying an all access pass to a luxury cruise -vs- going on the same cruise, but paying as you go for each thing you want. Both parties know that cruise will end at some point.

[HungarianRhapsody]

People poking at the QA staff likely wouldnt be doing so if they had access to the known issue database and could see what was fixed compared to what went live.

I would still be poking at the QA staff if I had access to the bug database.

When major bugs that have previously been caught and fixed rear their ugly head again in later versions and are not caught with regression testing, that's QA's fault. That is entirely 100% QA's fault and they should be suitably embarrassed when it happens.