Are rouges Redundant?

[HongKongKid]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Evasion

17d6+12 potential extra sneak attack damage

They're more bad@$$

People still play rogues.

[Uska]

rogues can get traps that arties have little or no chance at due to where the box his rogues can do a lot of damage ASSASINATE! rogues are fine

[Wipey]

Quite the opposite, many things in the world wouldn't be so pretty.

[Buggss]

I dunno, I mean I'm not female but foundation is also a good choice for making yourself look nice. I wouldn't say rouges are useless at all!

[destiny4405]

Rouges are an essential component of a balanced party's makeup, but they are way overpowdered.
I've seen one rouge mascara a whole kobold village.
In my experience, rouges paint the battlefield red.

this^

[Lonnbeimnech]

Are barbarians and fighters Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a barbarian or fighter anytime. Barbarians and fighters are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A barbarian or fighters has to take the feat where an artificer can just cast master's touch.




Are Wizards and sorcerers Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a wizard or sorcerer anytime. Wizards and sorcerers are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A wizard or sorcerer has to memorise spells where an artificer can just use a scroll.



Are clerics and favored souls Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a cleric or favored soul anytime. clerics and favored souls are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A cleric or fvs can't take force damage enhancements where an artificer can.

[dragon2fire]

This is one of those joke post right? Rouges are one of the top dps classes in the game!!!!

[Antiguo]

We need here a Phillip J.Fray pic asking himself: "dont know if this guy cant spell or just being a troll"

[UltraMonk2]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

Sadly makeup artists are indeed nearly redundant in today's DDO ever since House Cannith released the Cosmeticatron 2000. However with the Makeup Artist Epic Destiny coming soon the top tier ability is 'Flurry of Powder Puffs', beta testers have described it as a very devastating ability.

I'd still enjoy playing a Rouge, nothing quite like sneaking up behind your opponent and giving them a quick makeover.

The surprise on their faces have to be seen!

[enteriiblackwater]

Well Rouge has it's place of course as long as you dont go overboard. I have seen a couple of tarted up Half orc wenches that went severly overboard with the rouge as like putting perfume on a pig.

However as normal keep it in moderation and it can really highlight your face.. :D

Ent

[pie2655]

Rogues are gimp.

[SSFWEl]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

Yes, yes they are. So please, never go play one.

They are terrible. Their DPS stinks, they have no instakill and they cant use scrolls like heal, rez, GH, prot, silver and other, anyway useless, scrolls.
They can't evade stuff, and when they do, they actually get double damage.
When they are not being agroed, a Rogues' damage to enemies actually plummets. This is compounded by the fact that Rogues have no way to limit the amount of agro they gather. They are hate magnets.

In summary, I think Rogues should be removed from the game, or, conversely, only be played by players who want to make sure groups can't finish quests.

[Cinos]

The artificer's weakness is their lack of evasion. The rogue's weakness is their terrible DPS against fortified enemies. Pick your poison or splash the former with the latter.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My Rogue is an artist.

Killing monsters is her art.

She is a very tallented artist. :cool:

[Viisari]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

Is a class that has some of the best dps in the game and instakills redundant?

Yeah, sure, why not.

[Vormaerin]

The artificer's weakness is their lack of evasion. The rogue's weakness is their terrible DPS against fortified enemies. Pick your poison or splash the former with the latter.

Yeah, but Precision, Opportunist, and other such skills really make that weakness on the part of rogues much less than it was.

Anyway, a good rogue will do crazy DPS even without Assassinate, plus be as able to scroll heal nearly as well as an artificer. Evasion is a big plus for survivability in fights, entirely beside the issue of traps.

[DanteEnFuego]

Not even at first blush...

[pie2655]

Rogues cant do DPS

[Spoonwelder]

Rogues cant do DPS

Are you extremely happy, in a trance-like state of pure joy......just wondering since I have heard that ignorance is bliss.

[pie2655]

Are you extremely happy, in a trance-like state of pure joy......just wondering since I have heard that ignorance is bliss.

Rogues cant do DPS, its a known fact. Stop Trolling

[Spoonwelder]

/squelch pie2655

[Lonnbeimnech]

Rogues cant do DPS, its a known fact. Stop Trolling

They do well over 100 damage on a noncrit, not even including weapon damage or their str bonus. With rogue haste boost and a divine power clicky for full bab that's a LOT of damage.

[HatsuharuZ]

rogues can get traps that arties have little or no chance at due to where the box his rogues can do a lot of damage ASSASINATE! rogues are fine

This is true. My Arty had alot of trouble in Vault of Night (part 5) since the trap box was INSIDE the trap. With a jump buff, ablative armor, and Prot from Energy, however, I can usually get the traps that force me to run through them first. It's harder without evasion, but it can be done.

[karpedieme]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

Rouge: definition

noun
1. (Clothing & Fashion) a red powder, used as a cosmetic for adding redness to the cheeks
2. (Chemistry / Elements & Compounds) short for jeweller's rouge

Absolutely yes Rouges are redundant in DDO


Rogue: Definiton

noun
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
4. A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
5. An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.
adj.
1. Vicious and solitary. Used of an animal, especially an elephant.
2. Large, destructive, and anomalous or unpredictable: a rogue wave; a rogue tornado.
3. Operating outside normal or desirable controls:

In the proper hands Rogues are hands down still the best DPS in DDO.......

So yeah Rogues are not redundant :)

Death to all Rouges and long live the Rogue!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kadriel]

I give the op a 5 out of 10 in obvious trollingness. It was well performed and got over a page of replies, but lack the finesse of the number, self created-self tested formulas, and let's face it, 1 page is not that much nowadays

Now pie, I'm sorry mate, but I'll have to give you 1 out of 10. You could have made it 2, but two posts trying the same trolling plot is just silly.

[Moonsickle]

Don't think you all are understanding the OP when they say "redundant"


since we already have Artificers and now this...




As part of U16... a new class will rear it's ugly head [literally]... The Rouge




this Update will bring an expanded PvP system as you will now be able to fight inside the WHOLE tavern of your choice...
and players will be able to battle with or against this menace in the brand new "Rise of the Drag Queens" adventure pack



Turns out Lolth, wasn't just The Spider Queen... but that she wasn't even actually a she either!



to celebrate the Rouge's arrival... the DDO Store will now stock many new items like Makeups, Handbags and an assorted variety of other fashion nightmares while adding to it's array of already lame items such as Hairstyles & Hair Colorings.






.

[DanteEnFuego]

Here is the right way to do it... Redundant?

Making the Perfect Rouge (http://www.wikihow.com/Apply-Rouge)

[Grace_ana]

A well-built rogue will out-kill a well-built arti anytime, provided the rogue has the proper cosmetic pigmentation.

[Adken]

Rogue: Definiton
Vicious and solitary. Used of an animal, especially an elephant.


I want a rogue!! (with the race implications included) :D

[Hambo]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

In my opinion rouges are overrated. I never liked a fake blush. :D

Rogues, on the other hand are different from Artis... An Arti doesn't end up with 17d6 sneak attack damage bonus, for example.

[Gizeh]

I have to disagree. I play a rouge 12/lipstick 6/mascara 2 multiclass, and it's very efficient.

Although the Tasha's Hideous Laughter effect generated by the lipstick's Duckface prestige enhancement helps a lot. :D

[luvirini]

Rouge has quite high bluff skill and is good at finding others to do her work, but other than that she seems useless.

[Chauncey1]

Nope.
I have an arti on his 3rd life, (1st life arti, 2nd ranger) and while he is pretty formidable with ranged, casting and even a bit of healing, he is no way superior to my rogue when it comes to trapping.
I can't count how many times I wished I was on my rogue when my arti just couldn't make it through the traps to disarm them.
I look at artificers as a well rounded support unit. Jack of all trades, master of none.
If you want the elite and epic traps done right, bring a rogue.
And I've heard if you set your rogue up right, they can have some of the highest dps in the game.
Haven't tried it yet, so I can't say it's true from personal experience.

[kutscd01a]

/rant on

What the heck class is a 'rouge'? Isn't rouge a color of blush that women put on their faces or the color of some lipsticks? Now a ROGUE on the other hand IS a class in DDO and a very good one a that. Anyone that thinks ROGUES are redundant or useless clearly doesn't understand the class.

/rant off

[Uma-Quixote]

I have a truly bad-ass 2wf 3rd life tr fighter....and she has never done 650 sneak attack damage, which my first life assasin has.

[Nibor]

They do well over 100 damage on a noncrit, not even including weapon damage or their str bonus. With rogue haste boost and a divine power clicky for full bab that's a LOT of damage.

Don't forget that sneak attack damage goes off even on grazing hits. Which, since they dropped grazing hits down to a 2 with the new combat, means your to-hit almost doesn't even matter.

[countfitz]

Are rouges Redundant?

It really depends upon your complexion.

[Horrorscope]

Rogue: Definition

noun
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.


So Palin wrote a book proclaiming herself that?

[MaximusParthas]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.


my signature alone makes your assertion trollish.

[MaximusParthas]

The artificer's weakness is their lack of evasion. The rogue's weakness is their terrible DPS against fortified enemies. Pick your poison or splash the former with the latter.

Rogues actually have a better chance than any other class at high end hits against fortified opponents. Why do you think they need threat reduction?
Feats like opportunist and fortification reduction abilities/items have more times when even the most boss boss has no fortification at all.

[MaximusParthas]

Nice! wish I could +1



My Rogue is an artist.

Killing monsters is her art.

She is a very tallented artist. :cool:

[Jendrak]

rogues can get traps that most arties have little or no chance at due to where the box his rogues can do a lot of damage ASSASINATE! rogues are fine

FTFY,

Its all about build, gear, knowledge, and skill. My rogue became my arti and trappping ability regardless of location is not an issue for me.

[arkonas]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

you know some makeup multi class into an arti so now they can shoot their makeup where ever they need to hit their targets.

honestly some rogues that are mechanics splash 6 arti for battle engineer. why not get the best of both worlds? im sorry both classes have their weakness and strength.

[Imatotalnoob]

I love these threads

to the OP
If U don't like them, don't play them.
Even my first life rogues out kill, out trap, out last
the rest of the party.

if any class is not working for U, you're doing it wrong.
You're same comment can be levelled at ranged rangers,
with arty ranged damage being so strong.

Cheers U troll

[Ranncore]

The only thing that makes Rogues redundant (and artificers) is that traps are so weak on any difficulty besides Elite that they can be walked through.
I seriously don't know why people running E-hard [insert quest here] bother looking for Clerics or Rogues.
The last time I ran an E-Hard Big Top, whoever got to the wheel first pulled it because the traps pose absolutely no threat, the rogue didn't bother disabling boxes because the time it takes to disable them isn't worth the XP it grants, and the only healing I did during the entire quest was my Aura. I did not cast a single spell to restore HP or use a single scroll.
Hey, at least I got to smite some stuff.
But if quests are going to be this easy Rogues and Clerics are going to be out of a job.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The only thing that makes Rogues redundant (and artificers) is that traps are so weak on any difficulty besides Elite that they can be walked through.
I seriously don't know why people running E-hard [insert quest here] bother looking for Clerics or Rogues.
The last time I ran an E-Hard Big Top, whoever got to the wheel first pulled it because the traps pose absolutely no threat, the rogue didn't bother disabling boxes because the time it takes to disable them isn't worth the XP it grants, and the only healing I did during the entire quest was my Aura. I did not cast a single spell to restore HP or use a single scroll.
Hey, at least I got to smite some stuff.
But if quests are going to be this easy Rogues and Clerics are going to be out of a job.

Well, I've always been of the opinion that no class should be required to complete a dungeon.... so IMO most current traps in DDO should NOT be too deadly.

I say current traps because with just a little thought involved you can have deadly traps that do not prevent a quest from being completed without a Rogue.

Stop making the dungeons with traps that go across the entire pathway that has to be traversed to get to the end fight.
and start putting random traps in part of a hallway, or positioned so that they can hit people when they go off, but then can be gone around safely.

This will make Rogues (well...those who invest in Spot anyway. :p ) useful... ut not required.

I am all for deadly traps.
and majorly annoying traps.

that parties really wish they could detect and disable.

But I am very much against traps blocking quest advancement, so that a trapper is required... if you want to comlete the quest.

[Chai]

The only thing that makes Rogues redundant (and artificers) is that traps are so weak on any difficulty besides Elite that they can be walked through.
I seriously don't know why people running E-hard [insert quest here] bother looking for Clerics or Rogues.
The last time I ran an E-Hard Big Top, whoever got to the wheel first pulled it because the traps pose absolutely no threat, the rogue didn't bother disabling boxes because the time it takes to disable them isn't worth the XP it grants, and the only healing I did during the entire quest was my Aura. I did not cast a single spell to restore HP or use a single scroll.
Hey, at least I got to smite some stuff.
But if quests are going to be this easy Rogues and Clerics are going to be out of a job.

Its a choice between the lesser of two evils. The other side of the story is they could balance traps to always be lethal regardless of what dificulty we are on, and we always have to have a trapper in the group.

Most people the forumites are running epic hard with are overgeared for that difficulty and have high end quest knowledge. The majority of all players, who werent even playing ANY epics at all pre U14 are the people who are challenged by eHard. Anyone who was running epics regularly before U14 should not be using eHard as any kind of measuring stick.

As far as clerics - they will never be out of a job. Theres a huge gray area between "not absolutely necessary" and "dont bother rolling the class".

[Elaril]

Is this a mind trick thread to get rogues a buff? If so, forget I mentioned it.

[Shunlee123]

It is obvious that the OP is not familiar with playing a rogue (simply from the fact that he does not know how to spell the name of this class correctly).

Although the forum is a free speech area, one has to do some homework on his/her comments before posting it on the forum.

By the way, the OP does not even come back to response to the comments of the poster.

[Jay203]

i like how many ppl's heads the joke went over :p:p:p

[Zorth]

I once Disarmed a Trap by tinting a sleeping Kobold's cheeks with foundation and threw him into the trap and it blew up! Thus Disarming the trap. The tint of the cosmetic used was perfect.

[Brattyone]

To all of you who so sarcastically, creatively used *rouge* in your replies...thank you! It's been fun reading through them. :)

To the OP, it is clear that either you don't play a rogue or you really don't know how to play one. A well played rogue is a thing of beauty and very lethal. Perhaps you can find someone on your server who might be able to show you this.

[Therrias]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0711.html

[Badnade]

Ok, I just wanna put myself out there a bit...

For the LONGEST time, I spelled rogue as "rouge," and posted it this way often in another game I played.

For years.....

I NEVER got the sarcasm or jokes to be had at my expense..
Once I learned how to spell....

I couldent stop laughing.

Ive gone back and read all the "unhelpful" threads from that game, and really, some of the best thought up stuff.

Seems like all the best jokes I hear are always "inside" jokes from one game or another.

If youve never tossed the dice, you just dont get it.. but man is it funny.

Great stuff here too.

Thanks for getting me to smile at the end of a bad day.
+1 OP

[danielhrobbins]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

Errr, wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

You obviously haven't run with a good rogue before. Generally speaking, a well built and played rogue will often lead the kill count, out-dps the tank, self heal, toss resurrection scrolls and heal scrolls when the cleric is busy, and sneak past mobs to pick up your soulstone. Oh, and if you ask nicely, they might disable traps now and then, though most of the time they are having way too much fun killing stuff and would rather not stop to perform this petty function that too many people misconceive as a rogue's primary role.

[Tirisha]

I do not believe that any other class can provide as much DPS as a rogue aside from a mana dumping caster.

Artificers are miles behind rogues in damage assuming both the rogue and artificer are built well.

[MaximusParthas]

Errr, wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

You obviously haven't run with a good rogue before. Generally speaking, a well built and played rogue will often lead the kill count, out-dps the tank, self heal, toss resurrection scrolls and heal scrolls when the cleric is busy, and sneak past mobs to pick up your soulstone. Oh, and if you ask nicely, they might disable traps now and then, though most of the time they are having way too much fun killing stuff and would rather not stop to perform this petty function that too many people misconceive as a rogue's primary role.

Preach!

[Cinos]

I do not believe that any other class can provide as much DPS as a rogue aside from a mana dumping caster.

Artificers are miles behind rogues in damage assuming both the rogue and artificer are built well.

Let's not exaggerate now. Very situationally, yes, a rogue's going to be the best DPS. But this is only against mobs without fortification and only if they can avoid aggro. A barbarian is also going to almost match rogue DPS even with sneak attacks. (at the cost of not having anything else rogues have)

[sandypaws]

Let's not exaggerate now. Very situationally, yes, a rogue's going to be the best DPS. But this is only against mobs without fortification and only if they can avoid aggro. A barbarian is also going to almost match rogue DPS even with sneak attacks. (at the cost of not having anything else rogues have)

With improved deception, bluff, and a high attack rate, I find that aggro isn't really an issue anymore (Note: This is for regular quests, not raids where you probably don't want to be pulling a raid boss's attention away from the tank. Unless you're a rogue tank).
Regarding fort, fort is always a problem. But there are a number of skills that reduce fort, and in a well-balanced party it's possible many of those can be brought to bear (e.g. improved sunder for -10, insult for -10, improved destruction for -8, fvs proc (infrequent), monk dark dark dark finisher for -25 against cursable things). If your target is a construct or undead, you can get an additional -20 (mournlode equipment/blasting chime), and -30 from tier III wrack construct.

I'm still not quite seeing how devs are saying that fort can generally be reduced to 0, but it can definitely be significantly reduced. Plus, precision even lets you bypass it, supposedly 25% of the time? Or so forums seem to say. The tooltip on the feat itself seems to only indicate a +5% attack increase.

[fco-karatekid]

not even at first blush...

lol, iswydt

[Viisari]

I'm still not quite seeing how devs are saying that fort can generally be reduced to 0, but it can definitely be significantly reduced. Plus, precision even lets you bypass it, supposedly 25% of the time? Or so forums seem to say. The tooltip on the feat itself seems to only indicate a +5% attack increase.

-10% Improved Sunder, -25% Precision, -15% from Shadowdancer, -10% Opportunist, -10% Black Dragonhide

That's -60% already, most devil raid bosses have a fortification of 80% on elite. On lower difficulties you'll get to almost 0% without any outside help.

[Bosco]

No

[Lonnbeimnech]

Let's not exaggerate now. Very situationally, yes, a rogue's going to be the best DPS. But this is only against mobs without fortification and only if they can avoid aggro. A barbarian is also going to almost match rogue DPS even with sneak attacks. (at the cost of not having anything else rogues have)

Except that barbarians regular damage is not that great, they do big damage on crits and you don't crit mobs with fort.
A rogue is going to have ways of bypassing that fortification, but I can't see too many barbs using precision or oportunist. So in these situations where a rogues situational dps is good, its better than a barbs, and in the situations where it isnt, the barbs is worse.

They also don't need to avoid agro, they have many ways to dump agro, bluff/diplo/improved deception/blindness/stunning/any kind of guard that holds, like earthgrab guard /frozen tunic - and even if you dont have all that fancy stuff you can umd a glitterdust scroll and lure mobs into it.

[soloist12]

Well, I've always been of the opinion that no class should be required to complete a dungeon.... so IMO most current traps in DDO should NOT be too deadly.

I say current traps because with just a little thought involved you can have deadly traps that do not prevent a quest from being completed without a Rogue.

Stop making the dungeons with traps that go across the entire pathway that has to be traversed to get to the end fight.
and start putting random traps in part of a hallway, or positioned so that they can hit people when they go off, but then can be gone around safely.

This will make Rogues (well...those who invest in Spot anyway. :p ) useful... ut not required.

I am all for deadly traps.
and majorly annoying traps.

that parties really wish they could detect and disable.

But I am very much against traps blocking quest advancement, so that a trapper is required... if you want to comlete the quest.

Why stop there, let's reduce monster dmg to 0 too so we don't need healers either. Let's reduce caster spell dmg to 0 so they don't need big fancy spells too. Let's also only put one monster per dungeon so we don't need cc as well.

I miss vanilla eq sometimes.

[BruceTheHoon]

With Shadowdancer ED, rouge is the new black, as the proverb goes.

[Crazeee]

If the rouges have the same color, then they are redundant. But you can achieve nice effects with different colors.

Not sure what this has to do with Artificers....

[Noctus]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee

No, you are just bad at them. Your suckage doesnt make the class as a whole redundant. It just means that you arent good at playig them.

The melee DPS of a Rogue outclasses the DPS an artificer can dish out.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Why stop there, let's reduce monster dmg to 0 too so we don't need healers either. Let's reduce caster spell dmg to 0 so they don't need big fancy spells too. Let's also only put one monster per dungeon so we don't need cc as well.

I miss vanilla eq sometimes.

lol..

We DO NOT "need" healers, or casters, or anyone else to complete quests....

with the exception of elite traps that currently can wipe entire parties.
Not the big a deal at higher lvls when people can find ways to res on the other side. (bothersome... annoying... not the way it should be... but at least resing past the trap is an option.)
... but elite traps with no trapper is a PUG killer on many lower lvl quests.


Some real experienced players can find ways around most of them, but the average PUG is doomed in many elite quests without a trapper.




Otherwise, I short-man most quests in the game... but I have the problem that none of my guildies play trappers...
so some quests end up being avoided just because of traps.

Not the way the game should be IMO.

I don't need Ftrs, Brbs, Wizs....Clrs!!!
.. to complete quests.

Why should I need a Rogue?





(the truth is, "I"... with six years of experience.... do not actually "need" a Rogue in most quests. But some of them are very painful without a Rogue... and many deaths are a certainty. Sad that the most deadly challenge in an elite quest is an unavoidable trap. :( )

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Except that barbarians regular damage is not that great, they do big damage on crits and you don't crit mobs with fort.
A rogue is going to have ways of bypassing that fortification, but I can't see too many barbs using precision or oportunist. So in these situations where a rogues situational dps is good, its better than a barbs, and in the situations where it isnt, the barbs is worse.

They also don't need to avoid agro, they have many ways to dump agro, bluff/diplo/improved deception/blindness/stunning/any kind of guard that holds, like earthgrab guard /frozen tunic - and even if you dont have all that fancy stuff you can umd a glitterdust scroll and lure mobs into it.

Well, a raging Barb still has the higest Str around... so therefore does the highest (melee) damage against a 100% fort monster.


But..... I will never understand why all of these Rogue haters seem to think that there is a huge amount of 100% Fort monsters running around. :confused:

[Viisari]

with the exception of elite traps that currently can wipe entire parties.

Which ones do that?

I just ran the whole game through on elite while the traps were bugged and didn't find any :(

[Stormraiser]

If you want the elite and epic traps done right, bring a rogue.

Corrected to be "If you want the elite and epic traps done right, bring a wizard/rogue"

[Chai]

Well, a raging Barb still has the higest Str around... so therefore does the highest (melee) damage against a 100% fort monster.


But..... I will never understand why all of these Rogue haters seem to think that there is a huge amount of 100% Fort monsters running around. :confused:

There arent, since most of that fort can be debuffed to the point where SA damage still puts rogues on top, if we are talking single target DPS.

[Chai]

Corrected to be "If you want the elite and epic traps done right, bring a wizard/rogue"

How many 18/2 wizards are going shadowdancer?

Pure Rogue/SD still wins. The good ones spec for int nowdays to instakill. While their int isnt as high as a wiz, the plusses given to them for traps in destinies more than make up for it.

[Stormraiser]

How many 18/2 wizards are going shadowdancer?

Pure Rogue/SD still wins. The good ones spec for int nowdays to instakill. While their int isnt as high as a wiz, the plusses given to them for traps in destinies more than make up for it.

I wasn't counting epic destinies. I wouldn't say 18/2 wizards require destinies to do epic traps.

[Hambo]

Well, I've always been of the opinion that no class should be required to complete a dungeon.... so IMO most current traps in DDO should NOT be too deadly.

I say current traps because with just a little thought involved you can have deadly traps that do not prevent a quest from being completed without a Rogue.

Stop making the dungeons with traps that go across the entire pathway that has to be traversed to get to the end fight.
and start putting random traps in part of a hallway, or positioned so that they can hit people when they go off, but then can be gone around safely.

This will make Rogues (well...those who invest in Spot anyway. :p ) useful... ut not required.

I am all for deadly traps.
and majorly annoying traps.

that parties really wish they could detect and disable.

But I am very much against traps blocking quest advancement, so that a trapper is required... if you want to comlete the quest.

I disagree... ALL ny alts should be able to make it through a quest... because I'm 98% solo.

Also, using your logic as far as traps go then there should be nothing that having a decent jump/swim/tumble should make easier,

There should be nothing requiring a caster, melee or healing classes for.

Nah, let's just say your logic is flawed. :D

[die]

Im still trying too figure out what the hell a Rouge is.

[Vormaerin]

Some real experienced players can find ways around most of them, but the average PUG is doomed in many elite quests without a trapper.


The "average PUG" is doomed in many elite quests without a healer, too. That doesn't make them required. Neither are trap disablers. They are just very convenient to have in some quests.

I'm trying to think of quests where the lack of a rogue or artificer is an absolute bar on elite. Desecrated Temple of Vol maybe? Haven't tried to get through that gauntlet purely on timing. Its probably possible, though. What non raid quests do you think are absolutely blocked by not having someone with sufficient search/disarm?

[Truga]

Im still trying too figure out what the hell a Rouge is.

Rouge (/ˈruːʒ/; French: red), also called blush or blusher (UK), is a cosmetic typically used by women to redden the cheeks so as to provide a more youthful appearance, and to emphasize the cheekbones.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Blush_and_blush_brush.jpg/800px-Blush_and_blush_brush.jpg

As for the topic of fort, even enemies with 100% fort aren't a big deal for a proper rogue:

-25% precision = 75%
-15% SD passive (3 ED points) = 60%
-10% opportunist (1 rogue bonus feat) = 50%
-10% armour piercing (envenomed blade, black dragonscale, ...) = 40%
-4-8% (improved) destruction = 36-32%

These are all more or less easily obtained, and don't really require feat. After this, it's only a matter of waiting until you roll a 20 on your attack to remove the enemy's SA immunity Last SD autogrant strips SA immunity on vorpals. So yes, yes you can SA zombies and iron golems now.

[Fefnir_2011]

Puh-lease, my rogue's got more DPS in her little pinkie than you have in your whole toon list. Traps, self-sufficiency, insta-kills, and she hits like a 2x4 to the face. Have you even played the class? if you have, you didn't do it right.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Which ones do that?

I just ran the whole game through on elite while the traps were bugged and didn't find any :(

Prt 3 of STK. (I guess guild buffs make this less likely)
Gwylans Force trap...doesnt cause a wipe but can prevent completion.

Ghola Fan doesnt usually cause a wipe, and can technically be doen without getting hit... but I have seen few PUGs that dont spend an extremely long time with many deaths.

I personally find the force traps near the dragon in Litany very difficult to survive. (but at that lvl raising at the bottom is easy enough)

The wheel traps in Under the Bigtop are certain death for whoever pulls them, but you can always take the guy to a shrine. (again 30 pt guild resists does change this somewhat)

For some reason I cant remember a total wipe from Lair of summoning, but there are always several deaths in there.

Valeks Mauseleum can be timed, but I think that is only after you set them off first. So I think the first guy has to die...

Made to Order... lol

Crucible (probably doesnt count, as the swim is what I am refering to, and cannot be disabled)



But, I guess as I look over the list... these do not actually cause wipes.
But they cause many deaths.

And I am refering to PUGs, at lvl. (and I dont think it is fair to say they are not a problem if you have 30pt guild resists on you rlvl 1 toon)




I suppose the ony show stoppers are STK, Gwylans, Ghola Fan, Made to Order, and Crucible.

Made to Order is more because people give up, instead of learning to be careful. (and suck up the deaths.)

Crucible isnt really about a trapper.. but about someone with either the build or skill or both to make the swim.

Ghola Fan can also be timed. its more about getting enough people through to do the fight on the other side.

again... PUG... at lvl.
I know darn well that uber vets can do these.

(and I personally know tactics that can prevent the guy in Gwylans from ever setting the trap off in the first place....but most PUGs mess this up before I can use any of them. :( )


But even if I am wrong about the wipes... it is still not right in my opinion that half of the party is guaranteed to die.... just because we didnt bring a trapper along. :(

The traps should be designed to be deady... but not to be the biggest obsticle to quest completion IMO.

The traps in Tomb of Forbidden/Unhallowed (get these two confused...sry) are an excellent design IMO.

They catch players all the time, and are quite deadly. Yet are easy to avoid as well.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The "average PUG" is doomed in many elite quests without a healer, too. That doesn't make them required. Neither are trap disablers. They are just very convenient to have in some quests.

I'm trying to think of quests where the lack of a rogue or artificer is an absolute bar on elite. Desecrated Temple of Vol maybe? Haven't tried to get through that gauntlet purely on timing. Its probably possible, though. What non raid quests do you think are absolutely blocked by not having someone with sufficient search/disarm?

it is really hard to argue with that. :o


Temple of vol can be gotten through, but the problem is usually that people expect a single guy to get to the other side...and then he has to get the chest open while (elite) shadows are attacking him.

My number one biggest complaint is the force trap in Gwylans.
Once set off I have never been able to get by it.
and if by some miracle I do, then we have the sonic trap to worry about.

The whole party (almost) needs to get by it to go into the cave above.
required for completion. and I do no tthink the barrels of powder are tradable.
that means if no Rogue on elite...typical PUG.... not gonna complete the quest.

Now, there are ways to prevent the traps from being set off in the first place. But very difficult to pull off.
Charm, trip, hold.... pull and kill (but if he gets normal agro he runs to the trap instead of fighting) These do not always work... (and sometimes even if they do work, he still turns on the trap......llike sliding across the floor on his butt or while held. :( )

[Lonnbeimnech]

Well, a raging Barb still has the higest Str around... so therefore does the highest (melee) damage against a 100% fort monster.


But..... I will never understand why all of these Rogue haters seem to think that there is a huge amount of 100% Fort monsters running around. :confused:

Monks are the least effected by fort because they have such a low crit profile to begin with. So if there was such a thing as a 200% fort mob (not sure if there is), monks would be the top dps.

But against 100% fort mobs a rogue can bypass 50% of it with precision opportunist and shadowdancer ED, and another 10% if he has an armor piercing item. After that there are debuffs that would benifit the whole party, things like improved sunder, destruction, improved destruction, fvs aura proc. This gives the rogue the advantage even against mobs he is weakest against. While you are dealing with a 100% fort mob, he is dealing with a 50% mob. While you are dealing with a 90% fort mob, he is dealing with a 40% mob.

On top of that, the vast majority of rogues are 2wf and they get full sneak damage with the left hand. Rogue haste boost with a divine power clicky will have them attacking as fast as a kensai.

Their damage output is crazy.

[markymarksta]

Rouge is a lot like a rogue. When you look and can't notice it, its done well.

[Viisari]

I know darn well that uber vets can do these.

Oh nevermind then.

I will however note that in Vol you only have to go the left side, you can have two people pick up the key from the same chest.

And that the fire trap in STK ladders was indeed very nasty with the trap damage through the roof, buffs completely negated it in the past.


Im still trying too figure out what the hell a Rouge is.

Duh, it's red in french of course!

But red goes fasta so it's far from redundant.


I wasn't counting epic destinies. I wouldn't say 18/2 wizards require destinies to do epic traps.

Every epic elite I've done so far has been giving me critical success with ~60 + 1d20 almost all the time. If there are traps in this game where a having significantly higher DD would matter they are very rare.

If necessary I can get much higher than that disable device value but the only reason I've found to do that at the moment is if you want to no-fail the slave collars in EE quests, those need around ~65-68 to succeed I think. But for those you can use plenty of other stuff, like UMD which hasn't killed anything with a value of 47 yet.

Before epic stuff there's only one or two traps where having really high disable device matters, but those traps are optional and a good rogue can reach those values easily enough.

Splashing rogue with wizard is heresy (http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/Tyyrlym/WH40K/heresystamp.png) anyway so you're even more wrong.

[goodspeed]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

bwahahah. Come on man.

See people gotta stop making those fail settups. If a rogue is built right their is no way, and I do mean NO way that an arti would even come close at all to the dmg that the rogue could put out. I mean their isn't even a fabric of a doubt. I would rank a rogue and his SA right there with a barbarian criting on a 20. And I am taking into account an arti at his highest peak. Maxed DC's, rune arm pumping out quickened dmg criting, all buffs going, dr breaking, power scroll going, human versatility, fausading.

An arti is good dmg no doubt. Mine is fine, but no way comparable to the feats the rogue can do. Especially with epics now.

Now ranged, I don't know. I mean if I did go ranged for some odd reason on a rogue then i'd prolly just splash 6 arti levels and suck up their enhancement maybe. Personally I think of a rogue as knifing, cut em up melee.

Traps? Rogue. Why? Just because it's easier. Highly easier. IE is nice. I can't even think of how a trap would kill a rogue. Theirs just so many ways to jack up reflex it's sick now. Even with a few 1's I think the rogue would still be alive.

Now the arti could give up cap and take 2 levels for evasion, but ya take a hit for dmg from the arm. Rogue can do the same giving up cap and some SA but can also gain from it as well. Plus even with evasion your still looking at needing around i'd say a 48 relfex. I'm more comfy at 50 but 48 works. A few less and something like those stairs in dust are gonna nail you. God help ya if theirs lag.

So no I don't think a WELL PLAYED rog is redundant. I mean you could have 4 of em in a raid. They'd all be blasting away cuttn that boss down defense and offense.

But flipside and then look at the arti. The arti in the raid whips out everything. DR breakers, extra dmg, some buffs maybe. So then ya look at arti number 2.... ya exactly. I know it, i've been their with my arti. I feel the situation. He does good ranged dmg between his various repeaters and maxed arms but does it compete with the crazed massive critting epiced barb over there? Or the sorc over there? Or the favored going offensive, or the fighter hitting his various buffs swinging wildly in a blur of blades? Somehow I don't think so. Unless those guys suck at their class.

And so now the topic comes full swing. Your building the raid for keeps. 2 spots left. Does 2nd arti get one? Or do they go to the wide selection along side them in the box?!?!

Oh ya I forgot to mention as well. Helf dili. Artificer.

[parvo]

Rogues are not redundant. Threads disparaging rogues are redundant.

[Skavenaps]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

you didnt even bothered to write well rogues....

[Lithalan]

Rouge is a lot like a rogue. When you look and can't notice it, its done well.

Well done. +1 for making my breakfast reading fun.

[darthhento]

Rogues and Sorcs aren't DPS, wizards are only for buffs and cc, bards can only sing and FvS and Clerics are supposed to stand in the back and heal. Oh and monks can't tank, paladins are DPS tanks.
Rogues are very redundant.
/sarcasm off

I tried to make a rogue but it's a too complicated class for me as I'm a min-maxer and rogues require fine tuning of the stats and gear for their versatility. Also so many gear choices...

[dodgyfella]

you didnt even bothered to write well rogues....

You didn't bother to read the other 90% of the responses before posting did you? :rolleyes:

[BoBo2020]

OP, I agree that, at first blush, rouges have a lot in common with Artifacers, but any similarities are merely cosmetic.
Rouges are essential to the foundation of D&D and DDO.
In fact, I can't imagine the complexion of DDO with rouges.
They compliment every other class and add a lot of color to the game.
I always include them when I make-up a party.
I actually believe that rouges are the most overpowdered class in the game (and they are unparalleled in concealment).
The other day eye shadowed a rouge named "Rosy" just to see the class in action; she utterly creamed the Demon Queen all by herself.
A raid party of rouges could easily mascara Velah in a matter of seconds, and I bet even Lloth would get powdered.
(The only blemish on this class is their tendency to run).

[Zorth]

The Art of the Face?

[OzmarDDO]

Are rouges Redundant?

Yes. You can get a much better shine with a nice face cream.

-Ozmar the Beautician

[BoBo2020]

The Art of the Face?

I'm glad someone caught that.

[karl_k0ch]

Re: Op.

Essentially, Ranged Artificers are a serious contestant to Mechanic rogues.

But anything beyond these subclasses would be comparing apples and oranges. A TWF assassin usually does different things than a caster Artificer.

[sandypaws]

Wait. So I'm seeing posts on the fort breakdown, and...
It seems like there is some mix and match between fort reduction and fort bypass. So, I have a question!

Let's say 50% fort, and 10% fort bypass from opportunist. Would this effectively put the enemy fort at:
a) 40%
b) 45%

[Tid12]

wait. So i'm seeing posts on the fort breakdown, and...
It seems like there is some mix and match between fort reduction and fort bypass. So, i have a question!

Let's say 50% fort, and 10% fort bypass from opportunist. Would this effectively put the enemy fort at:
A) 40%
b) 45%

40%

[sandypaws]

40%

Sexy.

[TheHolyDarkness]

Rogues aren't DPS.

Their mussles are too small. They only good for traps.

Arties can at least let the real DPS hit deadlier while getting the traps. While staying out of the way of us fighters and barbs (oh, and HOrc Fire-Stance Monks I guess. All other monks don't count) with their fey little crossbows, as a nerd should. I don't get why these cowardly rogues think they have the right to melee. Not with weak wittle tickle hits like theirs. They just git squish and I lauff.

Rogues are redundant. Useless nancy-boy specialist is useless cept for opening the locks to meh lootz (sometimes). Gimme an arty if I have to tow one of j0s around.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[karl_k0ch]

Rogues aren't DPS.

Their mussles are too small. They only good for traps.

Arties can at least let the real DPS hit deadlier while getting the traps. While staying out of the way of us fighters and barbs (oh, and HOrc Fire-Stance Monks I guess. All other monks don't count) with their fey little crossbows, as a nerd should. I don't get why these cowardly rogues think they have the right to melee. Not with weak wittle tickle hits like theirs. They just git squish and I lauff.

Rogues are redundant. Useless nancy-boy specialist is useless cept for opening the locks to meh lootz (sometimes). Gimme an arty if I have to tow one of j0s around.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24951836.jpg

[pie2655]

I give the op a 5 out of 10 in obvious trollingness. It was well performed and got over a page of replies, but lack the finesse of the number, self created-self tested formulas, and let's face it, 1 page is not that much nowadays

Now pie, I'm sorry mate, but I'll have to give you 1 out of 10. You could have made it 2, but two posts trying the same trolling plot is just silly.

You sir misunderstand me, i was not trolling, only creating a work of art.

[SilkofDrasnia]

OP, I agree that, at first blush, rouges have a lot in common with Artifacers, but any similarities are merely cosmetic.
Rouges are essential to the foundation of D&D and DDO.
In fact, I can't imagine the complexion of DDO with rouges.
They compliment every other class and add a lot of color to the game.
I always include them when I make-up a party.
I actually believe that rouges are the most overpowdered class in the game (and they are unparalleled in concealment).
The other day eye shadowed a rouge named "Rosy" just to see the class in action; she utterly creamed the Demon Queen all by herself.
A raid party of rouges could easily mascara Velah in a matter of seconds, and I bet even Lloth would get powdered.
(The only blemish on this class is their tendency to run).

Bwahahaha love it :)

[knightgf]

While I do believe artificers can be 'better' than rogues in many things, artificers can't evade naturally, nor can they do incredible amounts of sneak attack at point blank range, use improved uncanny dodge, have more 'luck' surviving hits when they are low on HP, or a few other things. While I believe artificers have unique powers, they do lack some defense, and not to mention I can't wrap my head around how they can do so much ranged DPS, as I believe a pure rogue can outdps a artificer in terms of ranged attack damage if that rogue is a mechanic. I still like to roll a rogue, as I believe they have unique ways of defending themselves.

[TheHolyDarkness]

In seriousness, arties are one of those heavy micro management classes that can out DPS everything in perfect conditions.

Its a hybrid caster/ranger. When using its blue bar and rune arm perfectly, it, like all arcanes it transcends the standards of a "mere" DPS and becomes a full fledged nuke.

Still not as good as a true arcane of course, but kinda competes with Divine Nuking in a way.

Yet despite not being a Ice Savant with Triple DoTs and Spirals and ****, a nukes is still a nuke, and arties make the cut. Blue Bar Damage > sustained DPS by definition. And what's this primarily good for? Trash.

DPSers are there to beat up red names. In this regard the rogue can be tops. Or not. Very fickle line between them and a barbarian or kensai fighter. Depends on whether we're talking a GOOD rogue verses a good barbarian or Kensai, or a bare minimum, phoned-it-in rogue. Without fort reduction, their DPS means nothing, and the gear required takes commitment.

I notice that Rogues have a tendency to be misunderstood and rolled in a manner that makes them gimped verses the simplier "MAXIMUMZ STRANGTH" fighter and barbarian. Tell me if you haven't heard this one before:

~~~~
"I maxed my dexterity cause I'm supposed to be nimble and agile and stuff. Oh, and intelligence so I can get every trap. Str? Con? What am I a fighter? I don't need it, why do you ask?"

"What's UMD again? Oh, sorry I don't really use that skill, not much of a point in it anyway...wait I can res?"

"So...dual wielding is a good thing? But I like my greatsword."

"Dude, again, why do I need str when my sneak attack damage is so high?"

"Weapon Finesse and combat expertise all the way! My massive dex will save me! Wait...what you mean no one cares about my AC unless I'm a dedicated tank build? What do you mean mean your not going to res me when I only have 300 HP?

"I'm a rogue, I'm supposed to be squishy."
~~~~

You never get this from a noobie fighter, barbarian, or hell, even monk. Oi. Bad rogues (along with bad wizards and sorcs) are relatively common quite frankly. One finds themselve lecturing them more than any other melee. Just on the basics mind you, let alone fort reduction.

Like the other primary melee classes, people seem to figure out arty simply enough though. Max int. Get some dex and con. Run around with a crossbow and self repair while you figure things out, while everything about the class descriptions constantly harps on about your super-arty-UMD, so you're less likely of making the noob mistake of failing to experiment with it. Rather foolproof.

~Out~

[Truga]

Without fort reduction, their DPS means nothing, and the gear required takes commitment.

Sorry, nope. Let's say rogue shadowdancer:

-25% from precision (there's now no reason to take PA on a rogue, ever). = -25%
-15% from shadowdancer passive (it's available fairly early in the tree, too). = -40%
-10% from opportunist (doh). -50%
-10% from envenomed blade in off-hand (drops from a level 16 quest, fairly often too) or from black dragonscale, which takes 2-4 runs in a full party now that each tor run drops tons of scales. = -60%

So that's a very easily attained -60%. Add someone with improved sunder in the raid (a lot of people use it now) and you're at -70%. Insult if there's a fury of the wild person present and you're at -80%. Twist in "piercing clarity" (4th tier in grandmaster of flowers) and you're at -90%.

[karl_k0ch]

I notice that Rogues have a tendency to be misunderstood and rolled in a manner that makes them gimped verses the simplier "MAXIMUMZ STRANGTH" fighter and barbarian. Tell me if you haven't heard this one before...

Nope, I did not hear most of the stuff before. But I witnessed very viable Dex- and Int-based builds, even if I prefer Str-based, personally.

Just because a class is hard to play/build, it does not mean than it's a bad class. By this logic, Chess and Go are much worse games than Go Fish, because new players can make much more mistakes with the first two games.

[Shunlee123]

Sorry, nope. Let's say rogue shadowdancer:

-25% from precision (there's now no reason to take PA on a rogue, ever). = -25%
-15% from shadowdancer passive (it's available fairly early in the tree, too). = -40%
-10% from opportunist (doh). -50%
-10% from envenomed blade in off-hand (drops from a level 16 quest, fairly often too) or from black dragonscale, which takes 2-4 runs in a full party now that each tor run drops tons of scales. = -60%

So that's a very easily attained -60%. Add someone with improved sunder in the raid (a lot of people use it now) and you're at -70%. Insult if there's a fury of the wild person present and you're at -80%. Twist in "piercing clarity" (4th tier in grandmaster of flowers) and you're at -90%.

Also, the upgraded Treason from Reaver's Fate gives 15% armor piercing.

[karl_k0ch]

Also, the upgraded Treason from Reaver's Fate gives 15% armor piercing.

You are right, but the point of truga was to list fort reductions which are largely independent of gear, just from Feats, Enhancements and Epic Destinies.

Edit: I had missed the inclusion of envenomened blade, so I changed this post accordingly. Imho, Black Dragon Armor is easier to get than a Treason, but both are some kind of investment.

[Shunlee123]

You are right, but the point of truga was to list fort reductions which are completely independent of gear, just from Feats, Enhancements and Epic Destinies.

Oh, I see Truga listed out envenomed blade, so I added upgraded Treason.

[Truga]

Yeah, I was just listing envenomed/black dragonscale because they drop in non-raid very easily farmable quests, and drop often.

[TheHolyDarkness]

My main point is: Bad rogues are annoying.

And lets face it, there are plenty of bad rogues, being the MAD style class that it is. I didn't really mean to say dex or int was inferior. Int is important. Hell I'd take about 14-16 of it. I'm someone who used to be dex based, but once I went str based I never looked back. Dex based isn't "gimped" per se as simply...viable-yet-sub-optimal. But that's my opinion. Yet often you'll see noobs taking dex or int to such extremes that they have 12, 10, or 8 str, completely ignorant of how unrepentantly gimped that is.

Not to mention how inexcusably squish they can be.

Again, the main point is, I wouldn't call the glamorous Rogue a "pick up and play" class you can simply dive into with ZERO research. Am I right in this or what? I started my barbarian without a clue and I was fine.

Jump into a rogue (and on that point, a wiz or a sorc) without a clue and...really am I the only one who hasn't noticed all those disasters?

Jump into a rogue (and on that point, a wiz or a sorc) WITH a clue however...

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[Odysseus2011]

I find rouges are very useful to a party and can easily match or be better than an artificer. Both have their advantages and it can be hard to compare the two classes, however one simple problem for an artificer is what happens when the trap box is on the other side of the trap? Its not like they can easily jump across the trap like a rouge. Rouges can can also be very versatile, one of my guildies who happens to be a rouge can use scrolls, and can raise dead people, (very useful when the cleric dies) can heal a tank with heal scrolls saving the healer sp, they can also do deadly melee attacks, if a rouge is an assassin they can just simply kill one or two targets with an assassinate, this can be very useful if they simple kill the enemy caster leaving the rest of the group to kill the other mobs. Even on the assassin enhancement line they can still disable traps, its not like you have to have an "uber" disable device to disable the trap. All in all rouges can be very good dps, although they do have some difficulties against highly fortified bosses, can be very versatile in a group providing assistance to the party and also doing devastating assassinates to enemy casters.

[ThePrisoner]

OP, I agree that, at first blush, rouges have a lot in common with Artifacers, but any similarities are merely cosmetic.
Rouges are essential to the foundation of D&D and DDO.
In fact, I can't imagine the complexion of DDO with rouges.
They compliment every other class and add a lot of color to the game.
I always include them when I make-up a party.
I actually believe that rouges are the most overpowdered class in the game (and they are unparalleled in concealment).
The other day eye shadowed a rouge named "Rosy" just to see the class in action; she utterly creamed the Demon Queen all by herself.
A raid party of rouges could easily mascara Velah in a matter of seconds, and I bet even Lloth would get powdered.
(The only blemish on this class is their tendency to run).

Amazing. This is a hall of fame post.


Rogues aren't DPS.

Their mussles are too small. They only good for traps.

Arties can at least let the real DPS hit deadlier while getting the traps. While staying out of the way of us fighters and barbs (oh, and HOrc Fire-Stance Monks I guess. All other monks don't count) with their fey little crossbows, as a nerd should. I don't get why these cowardly rogues think they have the right to melee. Not with weak wittle tickle hits like theirs. They just git squish and I lauff.

Rogues are redundant. Useless nancy-boy specialist is useless cept for opening the locks to meh lootz (sometimes). Gimme an arty if I have to tow one of j0s around.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

This is great too! You guys are on fire today.

[Bozone]

I haven't read all of the replies, but IMO rouges are redundant if you already have nice rosy cheeks.

For pale masters in particular, I think rouge might be a nice touch when in public so that you don't scare all the kids.

Edit to add: I went back and read the other posts - some great ones there.

[ThePrisoner]

"Dude, again, why do I need str when my sneak attack damage is so high?"



You need strength for the weapon in your hand that isn't a Midnight's Greetings (unless you are dual wielding them). That way you can get around 4 more damage on that weapon, which is likely a 2% increase in one weapon's damage (the Midnight's isn't affected) - if you haven't gimped your rogue by making it something like a half orc, and you are benefiting from a human or half elf damage boost, which of course applies to sneak attack damage as well (+25%).

As for the high intelligence, it's nice to be able to insta-kill and consume anything in epic elites. If you want to design a rogue for epic casual, normal, or hard, however, then absolutely go strength and don't do much with intelligence. Things die so quickly in those difficulties that you wont have time to insta-kill anyway. And you wouldn't need a Midnight's in those difficulties, so you can benefit from strength damage in your second weapon as well.

Like I said, it really depends on what you are trying to build.

Sorry for the derailment, but I much prefer the humor to the "expertise" in this thread and couldn't help commenting on it.

[DanteEnFuego]

Amazing. This is a hall of flame post.

FTFY... Love it...

[Chette]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

Are you kidding me? Rogues are the best DPS in the game. A rogue can out DPS a well built artificer with a pair of muckbanes. Rogues were never about doing traps, it's just a bonus that the evasive killing machines are capable of pulling off in their spare time.

[Ertay]

OP, I agree that, at first blush, rouges have a lot in common with Artifacers, but any similarities are merely cosmetic.
Rouges are essential to the foundation of D&D and DDO.
In fact, I can't imagine the complexion of DDO with rouges.
They compliment every other class and add a lot of color to the game.
I always include them when I make-up a party.
I actually believe that rouges are the most overpowdered class in the game (and they are unparalleled in concealment).
The other day eye shadowed a rouge named "Rosy" just to see the class in action; she utterly creamed the Demon Queen all by herself.
A raid party of rouges could easily mascara Velah in a matter of seconds, and I bet even Lloth would get powdered.
(The only blemish on this class is their tendency to run).

Well played indeed. You sir, are a gentlemen and a scholar. /clap

On topic: Rogues got an incredible, yet easily overlooked buff with all the stacking fort bypasses they have now. They are right there at the top of the food chain when it comes to sustained single target dps.

[Qezuzu]

Sorry, nope. Let's say rogue shadowdancer:

-25% from precision (there's now no reason to take PA on a rogue, ever). = -25%
-15% from shadowdancer passive (it's available fairly early in the tree, too). = -40%
-10% from opportunist (doh). -50%
-10% from envenomed blade in off-hand (drops from a level 16 quest, fairly often too) or from black dragonscale, which takes 2-4 runs in a full party now that each tor run drops tons of scales. = -60%

So that's a very easily attained -60%. Add someone with improved sunder in the raid (a lot of people use it now) and you're at -70%. Insult if there's a fury of the wild person present and you're at -80%. Twist in "piercing clarity" (4th tier in grandmaster of flowers) and you're at -90%.

Don't forget Improved Destruction for -8%.


As for the high intelligence, it's nice to be able to insta-kill and consume anything in epic elites. If you want to design a rogue for epic casual, normal, or hard, however, then absolutely go strength and don't do much with intelligence. Things die so quickly in those difficulties that you wont have time to insta-kill anyway. And you wouldn't need a Midnight's in those difficulties, so you can benefit from strength damage in your second weapon as well.

I've ran the numbers and maxing STR, as opposed to having a base of 12 STR, will usually increase a rogue's damage by less than 5%.

Speaking from experience, INT rogues are a lot more powerful in Epic Elites.

Also, Midnight's Greetings will use either DEX or STR.

[Ertay]

Don't forget Improved Destruction for -8%.


Slightly related: While we're running numbers already, note that you won't even need that much, your point holds true though of course. See here: (theres more about the topic in that post as well if you click |>| )



Every Pit Fiend and Horned Devil raid boss' fortification is currently 50% on normal, 65% on hard, and 80% on elite. Epic Velah's fortification is 50%. Epic Lailat's fortification is 80%. Even the Lord of Blades left his heavy fort item at home, and is sitting at 80% (even though he really should have the Improved Fort feat).


edit: funny. Just noticed the very post I linked was a reply to you in the first place, so I can assume you very much know about that already. =)

[Qezuzu]

Slightly related: While we're running numbers already, note that you won't even need that much. See here:

Improved Destruction is another effect a rogue can personally use, meaning a rogue can have 68% personal fortification bypass, without depending on anyone else. And while you don't need every effect, since the total amount of fortification that can be bypassed exceeds that amount of fortifiction that raid bosses actually have, it does mean that you can substitute effects. The post I quoted didn't even mention FvS condemnation guard, or Touch of Despair... so basically fort isn't really worth talking about when it comes to arguing about a rogue's DPS.

Also, some mobs have 100% fortification, like Abbot (implying anyone runs Abbot). But undead have Mourndland armor, and there aren't any important construct/ooze/elemental/etc bosses (except LoB, but, again, 80%).

[Hutoth]

OP, I agree that, at first blush, rouges have a lot in common with Artifacers, but any similarities are merely cosmetic.
Rouges are essential to the foundation of D&D and DDO.
In fact, I can't imagine the complexion of DDO with rouges.
They compliment every other class and add a lot of color to the game.
I always include them when I make-up a party.
I actually believe that rouges are the most overpowdered class in the game (and they are unparalleled in concealment).
The other day eye shadowed a rouge named "Rosy" just to see the class in action; she utterly creamed the Demon Queen all by herself.
A raid party of rouges could easily mascara Velah in a matter of seconds, and I bet even Lloth would get powdered.
(The only blemish on this class is their tendency to run).

Beautiful.

Apparently, I cannot give rep to the same post twice. But I'm going to keep trying.

[TheHolyDarkness]

Are you kidding me? Rogues are the best DPS in the game. A rogue can out DPS a well built artificer with a pair of muckbanes. Rogues were never about doing traps, it's just a bonus that the evasive killing machines are capable of pulling off in their spare time.

I'm not sure whether to correct or semi-agree, based on whether or not by DPS, you strictly mean sustained, single target DPS. If you mean that the upper limits of a rogue's damage output exceeds an Arty...oh heavens no!

The caster side of an Arty is a classifiable nuke. Like all melees, rogues can't beat a damage output that originates from a blue bar.

Remember that the Arty is arguably an overpowered class for a reason. Rogues have a higher mean damage output over an arty most certainly. The caveat is that the Arty has a ~very high~ variance in its total damage output, with a much greater median when played perfectly with all guns blazing (ie, flame turret + BB + IPrecision + Action Boosts/Fusillade + Rune Arm + Dog-That's-Somehow-Not-Being-Worthless-For-Now). Sure, the sustained DPS side of things is weaker than a melee's when the Arty is in a lazy "point and shoot" mood. And the blue bar nuke side of things is still weaker than a legit caster. But combined...

I'm sorry, I'm afraid that the next I'll hear is how Rogue > Sorc.

As for all that UMD utility stuff, seems this thread forgets that any arty, sorc, bard, or single arty/rogue splash can do them too. Arties however are MUCH better at the whole scroll healing/buffing stuff. There's no comparison. Arties are the undisputed overlords of UMD. Shouldn't need to go further here.

The allegedly crippling price is no evasion. Correction; no natural evasion anyway. Such a weakness is now addressable should the arty enter an endgame quest where evading traps in order to dismantle them is truly (where it is rarely) necessary. Speaking of traps, since intelligence is the primary stat of an arty, they're bound to have an easier time disabling them compared a proper DPS rogue.

So please, talk up the rogue class to the heart's content.

But don't grow so overzealous that you begin to disrespect Arties now.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[DDOisFree]

Mechanics were made redundant for DPS by Artis, but they are still the most superior trappers in the game. Acrobats were always redundant. Assassins have never been, and never will be redundant.

Also all rogues can self heal with UMD and heal scrolls.

[Qezuzu]

Speaking of traps, since intelligence is the primary stat of an arty, they're bound to have an easier time disabling them compared a proper DPS rogue.

There's a threshold for trap skills where you can disable all traps in the game (except that one GH one) on a roll of one.

It is very easy to reach this threshold, for artificers and even ****** 8-INT DPS rogues.

[RandomKeypress]

There's a threshold for trap skills where you can disable all traps in the game (except that one GH one) on a roll of one.

It is very easy to reach this threshold, for artificers and even ****** 8-INT DPS rogues.

With epic destinies and epic loot, there is no trap in the game that an 8 INT rogue can't disable on a 1, if the Cabal chest is still the highest DC out there. (Assuming said trap has an accessible trap box etc.)

[On re-reading your post, you already said this. Too early in the morning. Please disregard.]

[alvarego]

Are rouges Redundant?

Ask yourself, Is my onipion Redundant? :D

[Truga]

I've ran the numbers and maxing STR, as opposed to having a base of 12 STR, will usually increase a rogue's damage by less than 5%.

Yep. My current rogue has 14 base STR (human) because of carrying weight, rather than DPS. Maxing it out and putting all levelups into it would increase my damage by less than 9 per swing (slightly less than 9 because TWF is 80%). I'll already hit for well above 150 per hand at level 20 as a shadowdancer (so, say, 300 per swing roughly, I dunno exactly because I TR'd recently), so I'm really not seeing the point of doing it. It's not like not maxing STR also means I'll dump all STR items.

Also, there's rumours of DEX coming for damage for finesse weapons in the enhancement pass (because it got dropped out of shadowdancer). Coupling that with the fact that rogue has three dex enhancements, one might be able to get it pretty high, too.

[Ertay]

Also, there's rumours of DEX coming for damage for finesse weapons in the enhancement pass (because it got dropped out of shadowdancer). Coupling that with the fact that rogue has three dex enhancements, one might be able to get it pretty high, too.

This. It is also why I'm hoarding decent lootgen rapiers in all level ranges. The brokers have a wounding rapier of radiance almost everyday now, I'm hoping to get an epic silver holy of radiance one before they start to be the next big thing.

[Ziindarax]

Actually, a pure mechanic rogue outclasses a pure artificer in terms of DPS.

1) Fury of the Wild Adrenaline charges boost all aspects of physical damage; both the base weapon damage, as well as sneak attack are amplified.

2) Even without Adrenaline boosts, a mechanic with epic sneak attack feat (and even without) will inflict more damage per bolt than artificer could EVER hope to in a group of players where the monsters are not aggroing the mechanic. Even with deadly weapons, correctly functioning ranged DPS feats (Combat archery still seems broken), rune arm, and insightful damage, the artificer is miles behind a properly built mechanic. It is true a rune arm could inflict a bit of damage when fully charged, but they take time to charge (even with all the rune arm enhancements).

3) Shadow Dancer allows mechanics to ignore an even larger percentage of fortification.

4) Rogues are more survivable than Artificers when it comes to combatting ranged caster mobs, and navigating deadly traps because improved evasion allows them to take only half damage instead of no damage.

5) Rogues and artificers receive the same scroll amp enhancements, and both get UMD as a class skill.

6) Rogues get more skill points than any other class in the game.

7) Rogues with high sneaking ability can avoid most mobs, or kill from the shadows. An artificer, can't.

The only area where Artificers win out over Rogues are in:

Self-heal department - they can quickly heal themselves in a pinch, and their concentration allows them to not have their scroll casting interrupted if they're lucky (whereas rogues will generally fail if they get hit).

Buff Department - Weapon buffs to bypass damage resistance, as well as boost the DPS of a weapon.

Secondary trinket slot and effects being added to Artificer weapons via Rune Arm.

[Ertay]

The only area where Artificers win out over Rogues are in:

Self-heal department - they can quickly heal themselves in a pinch, and their concentration allows them to not have their scroll casting interrupted if they're lucky (whereas rogues will generally fail if they get hit).

Buff Department - Weapon buffs to bypass damage resistance, as well as boost the DPS of a weapon.

Secondary trinket slot and effects being added to Artificer weapons via Rune Arm.

You forgot about the part where the artificer mass slaughters everything that crosses his blade barrier, all the while shooting his crossbow/runearm as well. =)

Even for For single target dps, I could see the rogue coming out ahead barely if at all, but it should be rather close in any case. Everything else being equal (both take shadowdancer and equal equipment), a pure rogue mechanic gets 14d6 sneak attack dice, while an artificer gets 3d6 from helf, 2d8 elemental from rune arm, maybe even tovens hammer at 9.15 average per hit (I'll rate this as 3 sneak attack dice for comparison). And even though the rogue sees the damage he does with deadly weapons on his side, I'd argue that it probably should be counted for the artificer really. Thats about 6 sneak dice difference in favor of the rogue, not counting fussilade because its temporary even. And then there is the rune arm.

Adrenaline should benefit rogues more, true, but that won't last forever as well, although I'm not sure how to factor that in admittedly.

[DDOisFree]

Yup, Artis can get 1200 damage blade barriers on top of their crossbow damage, all that mechs can do is fire a crossbow.

I had a 12 rogue / 6 fighter / 2 monk mechanic / heavy repeater kensai with a GS heavy repeater and ranged specialization / imp crit, and no it didn't do close to the amount of damage my arti did with just his repeater and rune arm alone.

[TheHolyDarkness]

There's a threshold for trap skills where you can disable all traps in the game (except that one GH one) on a roll of one.

It is very easy to reach this threshold, for artificers and even ****** 8-INT DPS rogues.

I agree and understand this. Even my former 1 level rogue splash was able to reach this threshold. Allow me to clarify what I meant by "easier."

Arties on average are going to have an EASIER time about it in reaching the omni-disable device threshold, since they naturally gravitate towards being int based. While leveling, a random PUG arty can be better trusted not to blow up the box better than a random PUG rogue is all I'm saying. In the end, of course this is a moot point.




5) Rogues and artificers receive the same scroll amp enhancements, and both get UMD as a class skill.


Must not have paid attention to a point I earlier made:


As for all that UMD utility stuff, seems this thread forgets that any arty, sorc, bard, or single arty/rogue splash can do them too. Arties however are MUCH better at the whole scroll healing/buffing stuff. There's no comparison. Arties are the undisputed overlords of UMD. Shouldn't need to go further here.


Ok, actually I guess I should elaborate. Let me correct you on this point. Sorcs, Arties, Rogues, and Bards all have a basic enhancement to amplify their UMD use. This is true.

By design however, when it comes to the role of UMD utility monkey, none can possibly match a pure articifer. These simple quotes should remind you why:

Articifer Knowledge: [Scrolls/Wands/Potions/Wonderous Items/Arms and Armor]
Grants a +2 to UMD checks related to [Scrolls/Wands/Potions/Wonderous Items/Arms and Armor]. Any activated abilities on these items used by the Artificer are cast at a +1 caster level. This caster level bonus increases by 1 at Artificer levels 10, 13, 16, and 19 (for a total of +5), and is capped by the Artificer's Intelligence Bonus.


Articifer Capstone: Arcane Empowerment
The patterns of the most complex magical formulae are like children's drawings to you. You treat any non-scroll activated equipped item that casts spells (such as wands, rods, armor, or other activated items) as if they were staves, increasing their caster level to equal yours as well as increasing Save DC's to (10 + your Intelligence bonus + level of spell) if it would be an improvement. These increases are applied after Artificer Knowledge, so do not stack.


Actually, a pure mechanic rogue outclasses a pure artificer in terms of DPS.


In my mind, when I think of DPS I think strictly of sustained damage sourced from a weapon (or handwrap) of some kind. By that definition, I agree with you.

In my mind, any damage that originates from a blue bar however, I redefine as "nuking." When nuking, your statement becomes false.

Total damage output is everything a toon has, being DPS + Nuke methods of causing harm.

Arty (while nuking to augment his natural DPS) > Rogue Mechanic > Arty (purely "pew pewing" and not nuking...at the moment)

Thing is, as with all casters, the total damage output of an Articifer is highly subject to massive burst periods that sneezes on all others be they rogue or eSoS Frenzied Beserker. At the price of costing spell points.

So its difficult to compare. And difficult for me to either agree or correct such a statement.

But no, in terms of uppermost potential damage output, a rogue can't defeat an arty anymore than he can defeat the other arcanes.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[Truga]

This. It is also why I'm hoarding decent lootgen rapiers in all level ranges. The brokers have a wounding rapier of radiance almost everyday now, I'm hoping to get an epic silver holy of radiance one before they start to be the next big thing.

I just use a Radiance II in main hand and an EMG in off-hand. I only use metal types for fighting raid bosses anyway, and for those, Cannith crafted rapiers work best in my experience (holy burst of greater bane).

[Luthe111]

plus with epic destiny twists, proper feats, weapons, someone in group with improved sunder, and the now very useful precision feat specifically, u can bypass 84% fortification. oh and improved destruction. that leads to a 16% chance for something to be not hit by sneak attack per swing, even if it has heavy fort. for much else, its just overkill ^.^ oh yeah and if u have a fvs slave laying around(guildy possibly) aura for 94%. again overkill XD

[Loriac]

I've ran the numbers and maxing STR, as opposed to having a base of 12 STR, will usually increase a rogue's damage by less than 5%.


This is true mathematically, but doesn't address what the added str is really giving you.

A rogue has top melee dps vs. anything that can be sneak attacked. Arguably, you have excessive dps in such situations (by which I mean the mob's going to die anyway, how much difference does it make if it takes 0.3 seconds longer).

What increasing str does is enhance rogue damage vs. non-sneakable mobs. The utility of being effective vs. all trash is far higher than the 5% you quote above. In fact, against such mobs, the increase is likely to be 100%+ greater damage (depending on things like mob DR).

And whilst all the talk of fortification bypass is great, when you're levelling some levels can be very painful on a dex rogue due to the abundance of undead heavy quests. Str rogues meanwhile are useful to the party at those levels no matter what quests are being done.

[Azaghan]

With epic destinies and epic loot, there is no trap in the game that an 8 INT rogue can't disable on a 1, if the Cabal chest is still the highest DC out there. (Assuming said trap has an accessible trap box etc.)

[On re-reading your post, you already said this. Too early in the morning. Please disregard.]

What is the current threshold for Rogue Skills DCs ? Where are the highest DC traps found? EE VoN 5 maybe?

[Nestroy]

... DDO is a role playing game in the sense of that a group has certain jobs that have to be filled. So generally any job within the group may be redundandly filled with at least 2 different classes and lots of splash builds as well.

Jobs:
+ Tank - fighter, barb, monk, pal, but as well druid, rogue (depending on build / splashes) or ranger. Even bards and arties may fill this role from time to time.
+ DPS - well, sorc, wiz do the bulk of DPS in any group, don´t they? Barb and figher would be good melee choices, as well as ranger. Rogue and Arty correctly build do tremendous amounts of DPS.
+ Crowd controll or de-mobbing - wiz, sorc, bard (otto´s) and even clerics, fav or artie can do the trick with their blade barriers and some other spells easily.
+ Healing - best suited cleric and fav, of course. Wiz / sorc for WF, but any bard, pal or druid would do the trick in case of need or as secondaries. Certain druid builds could take over healer completely from cleric or fav, if need be. Even a rogue or arti with high UMD might play "healer" using scrolls.
+ Buffing - cleric, fav, arti, wiz, sorc, bard, even ranger and pal can do. And do not forget the monk.

+ Trap fixing - rogue and arti, simply as that. Splashed there are multitudes of builds being able to be the perfect trap monkey. I still love the rogue 2 splashed monk.

Every job is redundand in ddo! So, regarding the question "are rogues redundand"? Yes, of course. And everybody else too. Thank god and the devs for it!

[anttoni11]

Evasion

17d6+12 potential extra sneak attack damage

They're more bad@$$

People still play rogues.

Dark elusion->evasion fixed arty or option 2 monk lvl

[Truga]

This is true mathematically, but doesn't address what the added str is really giving you.

A rogue has top melee dps vs. anything that can be sneak attacked. Arguably, you have excessive dps in such situations (by which I mean the mob's going to die anyway, how much difference does it make if it takes 0.3 seconds longer).

What increasing str does is enhance rogue damage vs. non-sneakable mobs. The utility of being effective vs. all trash is far higher than the 5% you quote above. In fact, against such mobs, the increase is likely to be 100%+ greater damage (depending on things like mob DR).During end-game, this is a non-issue. Rolling a 20 as a shadowdancer means you've just removed the mob's sneak attack immunity (yes, even undead/golems). And since getting 80% or so fort bypass isn't even a big deal on a shadowdancer, that means that as long as you roll a 20, your mob will die within seconds of that roll. It's like having a vorpal for everything that has a couple seconds of a delayed effect. http://ddowiki.com/page/Shadowdancer See dark elusion.

On the other hand, DEX gives me some AC and reflex save, both of which are nice. Also, DEX for damage Soon™.


And whilst all the talk of fortification bypass is great, when you're levelling some levels can be very painful on a dex rogue due to the abundance of undead heavy quests. Str rogues meanwhile are useful to the party at those levels no matter what quests are being done.

My rogue is currently on her third (and final) life. On my second life, I went STR build, just to see what all the fuss is about. I can say that I had less fun than on my first (dex) life, which is why I chose DEX for my last life.

[Loriac]

Its been a long time since I played a rogue character, but I would favour an Int build rather than dex or str. My comments re: str were basically a counter to the full ****** max dps approach that people are advocating by maximising sneak attack damage. Talking about percentage improvements from going str based misses the purpose of going str based entirely.

In terms of stat distributions, maximising dex seems to be sub-optimal to me. Its maximising the thing you least need to maximise on a pure rogue, namely sneak attack damage. Int on the other hand gives you instakill capability, whilst str gives you better base damage. Before the assassin PRE, str-based rogues were more balanced gameplay wise than dex-based rogues (much like str-based rangers are much more balanced than dex-based ones). With the assassin PRE, and the additional capabilities from shadowdancer, Int seems to be the optimal choice for maximisation.

Note that in saying this, I'm not suggesting that anyone completely dump dex or str. Assuming a 36pt build, I would expect rogues to hit pre-buff str and dex each approaching 28-30 (base attribute + tomes + enhancements + items).

If on the other hand you build a str-based rogue by dumping dex (or a dex-based one by dumping str) you'll end up with a character with much deeper flaws that are likely to make it un-fun in particular situations.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Rogues aren't DPS.

Their mussles are too small.

These ? http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-0,mussle,FF.html

[noobinberg]

I have a truly bad-ass 2wf 3rd life tr fighter....and she has never done 650 sneak attack damage, which my first life assasin has.

Uh...with a Lightning Strike I've hit for nearly 1000 hp that's just the strike...with the added damage from sneak attack it was well over 1k hp damage.

[noobinberg]

I have a truly bad-ass 2wf 3rd life tr fighter....and she has never done 650 sneak attack damage, which my first life assasin has.

...um sorry I actually misread you the first time I read your post...was thinking that you meant it the other way around...then I read your post again...well you know.

[Kennyburns]

Are rouges Redundant? Because Artificers have come out and well provided if they are built well, can out-class a rouge anytime. Rouges are in my mind weak and not good at melee or ranged now because artificers have essentially made them redundant and superfluous. A arti can self repair/heal and can cast as well as rock with crossbows. A rouge has to take the feat where it is just given to an artificer.

Rogues are #1 DPS in the game Lol? Artys do what?
50 dmg per cross bow hit X3 + rune arm + BB + turret + half decent buffs
rogues give
150 Dmg per sneak + melee attack speed + assassinate + ability to make mobs not cast spells + Haste boost
Put 2 monk in in you get even faster attack speed + Stunning fist + GMoF EiN where that on an arty does only evasion

[wax_on_wax_off]

I love my rogue, generally rule the kill counts in pugs and always competitive in guild/channel runs, this was even when I didn't have EDs and guild made me come along on some quests/raids.

Getting close to EiN, I'm excited!

[seebs]

Are rouges Redundant?

Yes. Use a little less foundation, and maybe just pinch your cheeks a bit before heading out.

[Elucidus]

Is it bad that I read the initial post as rogue and not rouge? It wasn't until I got to the post about party makeup that I recognized and had to go back and sure enough I read it wrong. Does that mean it happens often enough or is it just that late?

[stoerm]

I think the point has been made and the dead horse beaten by now.

[noobinberg]

Errr, wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

You obviously haven't run with a good rogue before. Generally speaking, a well built and played rogue will often lead the kill count, out-dps the tank, self heal, toss resurrection scrolls and heal scrolls when the cleric is busy, and sneak past mobs to pick up your soulstone. Oh, and if you ask nicely, they might disable traps now and then, though most of the time they are having way too much fun killing stuff and would rather not stop to perform this petty function that too many people misconceive as a rogue's primary role.

Well said!

[noobinberg]

my signature alone makes your assertion trollish.

Cheers-

Kuranjahsin - Orien

[mondo]

Apples and oranges really, Rogues and Artificers both have a place in game. Why because people enjoy playing them. All these idiots can argue about which is better til the cows come home. But you should play what you like, and enjoy the game.