challenge pack rip off

[MrElusiveness]

so why talk us into buying these packs because of the extra xp to be gained only to have you guys take it away? That is bait and switch. I have toons sitting at lvl 19 with nothing to do for xp. bring back the decent xp to the challenges! forget getting elite amrath done. no one wants to run them. cant do anything at lvl 19 in eve star. the challenge's offer no xp at all. the eve star in-town quests are bleah for xp as well.

[Nullaer]

Challenge xp is being raised again the update, I think it was. Not 150k/10 minutes, but should be better.

[Hokiewa]

so why talk us into buying these packs because of the extra xp to be gained only to have you guys take it away? That is bait and switch. I have toons sitting at lvl 19 with nothing to do for xp. bring back the decent xp to the challenges! forget getting elite amrath done. no one wants to run them. cant do anything at lvl 19 in eve star. the challenge's offer no xp at all. the eve star in-town quests are bleah for xp as well.

Nothing to do lol. You mean, you want uber XP at a super fast pace? You don't understand bait and switch. lol

Right

[Vormaerin]

Do you have some bit of advertising where "xp" is given as the reason to buy the challenges? There could have been some, but I don't recall any.

Other players may have sold you on challenges for the xp, but that's not Turbine's problem or responsibility.

[InfidelofHaLL]

so why talk us into buying these packs because of the extra xp to be gained only to have you guys take it away? That is bait and switch. I have toons sitting at lvl 19 with nothing to do for xp. bring back the decent xp to the challenges! forget getting elite amrath done. no one wants to run them. cant do anything at lvl 19 in eve star. the challenge's offer no xp at all. the eve star in-town quests are bleah for xp as well.

there is plenty to do besides challenges

[MrElusiveness]

Do you have some bit of advertising where "xp" is given as the reason to buy the challenges? There could have been some, but I don't recall any.

Other players may have sold you on challenges for the xp, but that's not Turbine's problem or responsibility.

yes it used to be in the ads about lvling up your toon and getting new gear ect ect

[MrElusiveness]

And you are still 19? Sounds like you screwed up somewhere.

Anyway, you still haven't shown anywhere where Turbine advertised "high xp" as a feature of the content.

i still didnt say high xp

[MrElusiveness]

i still didnt say high xp

and there was nothing high about house c challenge's when it comes to xp

[Kiel]

I raised 2 characters besides my main from 18 to 20 to run the new content and it did seem like it was taking forever.But then again i usually gain those last 2 lvls running vale slayers+inspired quarter quests.Both kinda slow specially if the characters themselves arent great soloers.

I do think half of it for me atleast was just thinking of all the gear changes id have to do after i hit 20.

[darksol23]

Anyway, you still haven't shown anywhere where Turbine advertised "high xp" as a feature of the content.

Not going to debate his characters current situation. But Turbine did provide free tokens for people to sample the challenge pack before buying. If you purchased the pack based on the experience you had during that trial, I can certainly see why he feels like he's breaking out the jar of vasoline once again...

[Vormaerin]

and there was nothing high about house c challenge's when it comes to xp

So exactly what are you saying they 'bait and switched' you with? You can level up running Time is Money for 3k per run or whatever it is you get at 19 for the number of stars you are able to manage.

So they weren't lying about being able to level up. Your complaint was that they lowered the xp, but at no point did they make any promises about the level of xp you could get. You can level up and you can get loot. Then. Now. Next week.

No bait and switch.

[MrElusiveness]

And you are still 19? Sounds like you screwed up somewhere.

Anyway, you still haven't shown anywhere where Turbine advertised "high xp" as a feature of the content.

i think that when you keep refering to high exp you are thinking about eve star challenges, no where in my orginal post does it say high xp. it says that its not enough. and no i didnt screw up with my char, I ran every thing for the lvl cept cant seem to get people who are willing to run amrath. IQ is all done it does not pay anything anymore. there needs to be more than just slayers to grind.

[MrElusiveness]

So exactly what are you saying they 'bait and switched' you with? You can level up running Time is Money for 3k per run or whatever it is you get at 19 for the number of stars you are able to manage.

So they weren't lying about being able to level up. Your complaint was that they lowered the xp, but at no point did they make any promises about the level of xp you could get. You can level up and you can get loot. Then. Now. Next week.

No bait and switch.

any time you take away something from a pack that was sold, that is giving someone less than what they bought. actualy it is taking something away and yes that is bait and switch. 5-6k a run is better than 1k wich is what buying time starts with now like 900k base.

[Vormaerin]

No, my point is that you claimed there was a bait and switch. I am saying that there wasn't, because at no point did they promise any specific level of xp return.

They promised the ability to earn xp and get loot. You can do that.

Your complaint seems to be about the quantity of xp that you get. If its about something else, then feel free to expound on that point instead.



any time you take away something from a pack that was sold, that is giving someone less than what they bought. actualy it is taking something away and yes that is bait and switch. 5-6k a run is better than 1k wich is what buying time starts with now like 900k base.

So your argument is that the Devs can never change the game, because then it is not what was paid for. Double my sorcerer's damage output? Ruins my challenge. Not what I paid for. Cut down on Wail's effectiveness? Not what I bought originally.

There's a reason why the game says "Game experience may change in online play" or whatever the disclaimer is.

[MrElusiveness]

I liked the house c challenge's pack until they took away most of the xp that could be gained from them. taking away anything from the pack was not part of the deal. and if anyone does not aggree, I dont care.

[Hokiewa]

any time you take away something from a pack that was sold, that is giving someone less than what they bought. actualy it is taking something away and yes that is bait and switch.

Except when you have the giant disclaimer "Online play may vary and change without notice"

Regardless, the XP is out there, you simply don't wish to do it. That's a choice you have made.

[HunkyDane]

So basically you lost your big lollipop and now have to eat 4 smaller lollies to get the same satisfaction, I really feel for you.. Really I do.

[Jay203]

[QUOTE=MrElusiveness;4637004]any time you take away something from a pack that was sold, that is giving someone less than what they bought. actualy it is taking something away and yes that is bait and switch. QUOTE]

Except when you have the giant disclaimer "Online play may vary and change without notice"

Regardless, the XP is out there, you simply don't wish to do it. That's a choice you have made.

he only wants easy exp

i got to lvl 20 without touching house c challenge on a 3rd life TR, it's doable, just some ppl refuse to do anything besides easy stuff

[Hokiewa]

i got to lvl 20 without touching house c challenge on a 3rd life TR, it's doable, just some ppl refuse to do anything besides easy stuff

Agreed.

[Hokiewa]

How come I keep seeing all these posts about people not being able to find anyone to run lvl 17 to 19 content with them? Why don't any of these people ever find each other?

Anyway, just run Amrath yourself. Why are you dependent on other players?

Probably people skills :D

[Hokiewa]

so we can safely assume you've completed the Path of Inspiration, The Dreaming Dark, the Harbinger of Madness, Reign of Madness, Vale flagging + shroud, Reaver Reach, AND the Secret of Artificers all to the point where you're getting 99% penalty?

Jay, for 100 drachma, the phrase "extreme repitition penalty" is not known to the OP.

[MRMechMan]

It is absolutely bait and switch.

The first time bonus of the challenges was great, great XP for a few of them; the rest it was mediocre.

For repeat xp, it was solid but not amazing xp for the best of them, and complete dung for the rest.

Now, it is complete dung for just about anything other than a first time completion of 2 of them. 90% of the pack is useless if you got it for XP, and the rest is mediocre.

The first nerf I somewhat understand, even if it wasn't the best way to go about doing it. Too many people were doing challenges to cap. But this wasn't because challenges were great XP. Nope. It was because of turbines asinine decision to have epic quests have repeat penalties until you are capped at level 25 xp.

So no sane person will do the best XP quests and stack repeats up before capping. They should have nerfed the first time completion instead of chopping ALL of it in half.

Turbine only knows how to balance with a maul and power attack. Maybe a rapier and the "DM finesse" feat would be more appropriate.

THEN, almost unbelievably, they nerf it by ANOTHER 30%, INCLUDING heroic XP, which had NOTHING to do with their first reason for nerfing. Heroic stars are actually now giving ~1/3 of what they used to, or less. Pathetic.

So yes, a large reason for getting the challenge pack was XP, and now that XP has been doubly nerfed, and is now useless.

Bait and switch is probably the best words to describe it in fact. I don't know if they put the XP that high to "bait" people into getting it, or if it was just incompetence, but people buying the pack to ease the ED grind is certainly what happened in a LOT of cases.

And as for the "switch"...well, no one can really deny that, can they...

[Hokiewa]

It is absolutely bait and switch.



Not in the least bit. The EULA aside. There were no "promised" XP amounts, there were no guaranteed ingredient payouts etc....nor were any "buyers" of the challenge packs required to pay more to obtain a greater/same or lesser result once they purchased the challenge pack. Which is precisely why, EULA aside, it's not bait and switch.

Always amusing!

[MRMechMan]

Not in the least bit. The EULA aside. There were no "promised" XP amounts, there were no guaranteed ingredient payouts etc....nor were any "buyers" of the challenge packs required to pay more to obtain a greater/same or lesser result once they purchased the challenge pack. Which is precisely why, EULA aside, it's not bait and switch.

Always amusing!

Something does not need to be set in stone or legally contracted to be considered bait and switch.

If you pay for something and it is changed after the fact, EULA or no EULA, verbal/written promise or not, that is a breach of something far less technical, yet far more important.

Trust.

[Hokiewa]

Something does not need to be set in stone or legally contracted to be considered bait and switch.

If you pay for something and it is changed after the fact, EULA or no EULA, verbal/written promise or not, that is a breach of something far less technical, yet far more important.

Trust.

It actually is set in stone, i.e. the U.S. C.F.R., which of course as an American company, WB/Turbine are subject to. States and localities use the same definition. Throwing around legal accusations without the proper knowledge is simply foolish. Bait and switch is actually a fairly simple thing to disprove in this instance. Which has already been done. That is what I was pointing out.

Your disagreements with Turbine are your own (I'm not a giant fan myself). I'm just clarifying that it isn't what you say it is.

[Qhualor]

level 19 was the worst level for me last life. the problem wasnt finding quests to do. it was finding groups doing the quests without a big xp penalty. almost every group i saw on the lfm had epic level players too high doing IQ, house c and amrath. i had done pretty much everything in that level range aside from the previous quests i mentioned.

i like to think im a pretty good player, but i cant solo elite level 20 quests on a semi geared toon thats just trying to get to 20 so i can tr for more past lives. i know i dont have to do elite, but some quests on norm i cant solo like a new invasion.

the other problem i had was stoned players and if they werent stoned they werent very good. i was joining every pug group i could get into and a lot of them were fails or made questing with them extremely difficult.

18-19 is a very tough level range to be in and now i cant take my levels like i used to. i used to have no problem finding groups and never needed to bank xp. now i have to change up my strategy in leveling, xp farm and bank to get to 20. i have the challenges and never took advantage of when the xp is good. to me, challenges isnt the same as questing which is what i prefer doing.

so, i agree with the OP that 19 sux, but disagree that challenges are the only place to get xp. adding more quests in that level range would help, but i think the biggest problem is people think they need epic level players in their groups to complete quests that used to be completed by level 20 cap players.

[MRMechMan]

Heh, I see bait and switch all the time in the marketing world; how often do companies get busted for it?

Very seldomly.

You are right in that turbine of course covered their a$$es and more importantly their a$$ets.

Turbine will never get sued for changing things in the game world. But how many customers will they lose, and have they lost, by these changes?

Hard to say.


If a customer considers it bait and switch, for all intents and purposes it is; they might not sue the company, but their wallet will do the talking.

How many people will buy future packs without hesitating first, or waiting? I sure as hell know I will.

The bait looks less and less tasty when you realize it could turn into a turd at any moment.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Something does not need to be set in stone or legally contracted to be considered bait and switch.

If you pay for something and it is changed after the fact, EULA or no EULA, verbal/written promise or not, that is a breach of something far less technical, yet far more important.

Trust.

I guess nobody can trust you to read the part of EULA that says "gameplay may change", and believe it.

Funny how you don't seem to assign any importance to that.

[Hokiewa]

Heh, I see bait and switch all the time in the marketing world; how often do companies get busted for it?



I highly doubt you see applicable instances of bait and switch as defined by law "all the time". Emotionally, yes, you probably do. Most people think at some point, they are a "victim" of it as well. From a legal standpoint though, it's simply not true.

Companies don't get "busted" for it, because they simply follow the law. It really is that simple.

[darksol23]

Companies don't get "busted" for it, because they simply follow the law. It really is that simple.

(Emphasis added)

That is the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks for making me LOL.

[Hokiewa]

I guess nobody can trust you to read the part of EULA that says "gameplay may change", and believe it.

Funny how you don't seem to assign any importance to that.

Video game EULAs have been overturned consistently for 10 years. This is why I left it out of the discussion.

[Hokiewa]

(Emphasis added)

That is the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks for making me LOL.

When it comes to "fraud", companies most certainly do protect themselves. To think otherwise, is of course, foolish.

Corporations do a lot of shady things, some illegal. In this instance, not a chance.

[AZgreentea]

I think you need to re-read the EULA you agreed to before you started playing before you claim bait and switch:


Changes to Agreement and Game. Turbine may update this Agreement at its sole discretion, and you will be asked to review and agree to the revised version of the EULA once it becomes effective. If you do not agree to a revised EULA, you will not be permitted to continue playing the Game. If at any time you are no longer able to comply with the terms of the then-current EULA, you must terminate this Agreement pursuant to Section 2 and immediately stop using the Game. Turbine may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. Turbine may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice or liability. You have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game.

[Khatzhas]

Personally I'm much happier knowing that Turbine can legally fix bugs, close exploits, and adjust game balance where needed.
Improvements on the game are just as much changes as nerfs are and indeed are often one and the same.

Now, you can say "I personally don't like these changes. They make the game less enjoyable for me." But accusations of legal misconduct every time they change something would get very tiresome, very fast.

[SilkofDrasnia]

While not a bait and switch it certainly is a rip off IMHO, so glad i never bought the pack.

[DarkForte]

Regardless, the XP is out there, you simply don't wish to do it. That's a choice you have made.

Rusted blades was already better than challenges (and just as tedious) even before the first nerf.

[Jay203]

ionno... kinda still enjoy the spare hand o-o sure helps me consolidate disable item and open lock item into 1 :p
but that's just me :p

[Funny_looking_mole]

This thread is surreal to me, I bought the pack because of the items that came from there, in fact until U14 I didn't get a single point of xp from the challenges (and that was after the nerf to xp). And even farming them for tokens the xp didn't seem that bad, certainly not the best xp, but I was able to farm from 22-23 in a couple of days quite casually.

The other thing that astounds me is the claims that with the nerf there is no more xp to get to 20 (even before this thread), on my last life with no elite streak on a 5th life toon I got to 20 without running a single challenge, hitting rare/explorers/slayers (Other than the stuff to get to the quest), never touched Amarath, didn't run the shroud (didn't even flag for it), didn't run the lords of dust chain or the reign of madness chain and there was still lots of xp to go around.

[EllisDee37]

Rusted blades was already better than challenges (and just as tedious) even before the first nerf.A guildie of mine got millions of destiny xp over a couple days last week just doing a few rusted blades marathons. 1:50 (that's 110 seconds) per run for ~23k xp. He got all destinies to at least 3 and capped the ones he hated.

And challenges were the easy xp. Sure.

[Gremmlynn]

yes it used to be in the ads about lvling up your toon and getting new gear ect ectAs challenges do not have repeat penalties, they are never ending sources of xp. I don't see the problem.

[arkonas]

heh someone didnt read their contracts

[auntjobiska]

Reading a contract in the case of this game (and most probably all other games) is really not especially relevant.

If you want to play you have to 'sign' the contract whether you agree with it or not. It ia always 'my way or the highway' with these types of contracts. ther is never any room for discussion. It is always safe to assume that no company's contract will ever be in your (the customer's) favour.

I think that reading or understanding has no bearing on your feelings and emotions about the subject. If you feel that you have been had then that is how you feel and no amount of reading a contract, or indeed having it shoved down your throat by bystanders, will make you feel any better about it.

In the end it will be 'my way or the highway' and some will take that walk, others will suck it up.

AJ

[Avenging_Angel]

I have toons sitting at lvl 19 with nothing to do for xp.

In fact, all servers were full of lv19 uncapped toons before U13. This explains how no one ever reincarnated a character before: it's just impossible to do anything for xp at level 19.


and if anyone does not aggree, I dont care.

Well in this case, posting in General DDO Discussion might not have been the brightest idea...

[Dragavon]

I have toons sitting at lvl 19 with nothing to do for xp. bring back the decent xp to the challenges!

This is just silly. I have something like 8 TR's capped, and never had any problems capping them at 20 before even touching Amrath quests. Whatever you are doing you are doing it wrong ;)

[Jacoby]

there is plenty to do besides challenges

Uhm... No there isn't. When your on your 3rd life quests that can be solo'd are pretty scarce. You have a choice... Slayer or Challenges. I bought the pack myself when I heard about the xp for my TR. It got me from 18 to 20 a week before they NERFED the xp. I agree it needed an adjustment but to Turbine adjustmnets are done with chainsaws and axes.

[Ivan_Milic]

People were saying its bait and switch ever since challenges came to store,why didnt you listen?

[Loriac]

Those putting up legal definitions of why this isn't technically bait and switch are really missing the wood for the trees.

As MRMechMan pointed out, trust is key in MMOs - without it, your game cannot survive for extended periods of time because people realise that there is no point in them wasting their time if things they've worked for are subject to arbitrary changes.

This topic actually links to another thread created recently on the subject of why Turbine always seems to fix problems that benefit the player immediately, but other bugs are left where they harm the player (often indefinitely).

Turbine's policy of fixing beneficial bugs quickly is best practice - by doing so, no false expectations are created. You get a bit of an outcry at the fix, but because no one has really invested too much time into exploiting it, its generally accepted as an honest mistake by the devs.

That is why the recent nerf to the Challenges is so highly damaging: for a long time (since Update 12) the challenges were stable and you knew what to expect lootwise, ingredients wise, and xp wise. Purchasing decisions by players were made on the basis of the known baselines.

Now, when the U14 challenges went up, Turbine was absolutely right to fix the xp on the exploitable druids challenge asap. Where they blundered was putting in a global change that affected the cannith challenges, which were absolutely fine.

Whether it meets a legal definition or not, this behaviour is justifiably seen as bait and switch by many who bought the packs. It will doubtless influence some of those players' future decision to buy content. Turbine should look at adjusting xp to cannith challenges back to a reasonable level as being an urgent and prioritised bugfix in my opinion, as it is causing them reputational damage.

[arkonas]

Those putting up legal definitions of why this isn't technically bait and switch are really missing the wood for the trees.

As MRMechMan pointed out, trust is key in MMOs - without it, your game cannot survive for extended periods of time because people realise that there is no point in them wasting their time if things they've worked for are subject to arbitrary changes.

This topic actually links to another thread created recently on the subject of why Turbine always seems to fix problems that benefit the player immediately, but other bugs are left where they harm the player (often indefinitely).

Turbine's policy of fixing beneficial bugs quickly is best practice - by doing so, no false expectations are created. You get a bit of an outcry at the fix, but because no one has really invested too much time into exploiting it, its generally accepted as an honest mistake by the devs.

That is why the recent nerf to the Challenges is so highly damaging: for a long time (since Update 12) the challenges were stable and you knew what to expect lootwise, ingredients wise, and xp wise. Purchasing decisions by players were made on the basis of the known baselines.

Now, when the U14 challenges went up, Turbine was absolutely right to fix the xp on the exploitable druids challenge asap. Where they blundered was putting in a global change that affected the cannith challenges, which were absolutely fine.

Whether it meets a legal definition or not, this behaviour is justifiably seen as bait and switch by many who bought the packs. It will doubtless influence some of those players' future decision to buy content. Turbine should look at adjusting xp to cannith challenges back to a reasonable level as being an urgent and prioritised bugfix in my opinion, as it is causing them reputational damage.

reason why people pointed out the contracts which is a huge reason to show the op that they as turbine can do whatever they want its their game. If you don't read your contract just signing it. you could be signing your soul to them. what right would you have later on saying i didn't see that. Who's fault would that be? yours. you want a great example of abuse and parody of the contracts. go look up human centipede episode by south park.

Its a perfect example of you thinking you get everything but fail to read those contracts you sign away or accept. just don't blame anyone else if you can't read.

when i saw the challenge pack come out there was 0 PROMISES that was going to be a great xp or give AWESOME items or TONS of ingredients. there was none of that. So anyone thinks your owed anything. Your wrong. the pack provides xp items ingredients and other things you can turn in. It delivers what it promises. Sure it might not be the worth the cost of turbine points.

But seriously no where in this game have i see an official response promising 100k xp from the challenges.

[Cendaer]

so why talk us into buying these packs because of the extra xp to be gained only to have you guys take it away? That is bait and switch. I have toons sitting at lvl 19 with nothing to do for xp. bring back the decent xp to the challenges! forget getting elite amrath done. no one wants to run them. cant do anything at lvl 19 in eve star. the challenge's offer no xp at all. the eve star in-town quests are bleah for xp as well.

If you think that's a rip-off, be glad you haven't purchased any companion pets...

[Funny_looking_mole]

Uhm... No there isn't. When your on your 3rd life quests that can be solo'd are pretty scarce. You have a choice... Slayer or Challenges.

List of quests I have solo'd on at level 19 that give no overlevel penalty:

Finding the Path
Dream Conspiracy
I Dream of Jeets
The Shipwrecked Spy
The Mindsunder
Eye of the titan
Reclaiming Memories
Raiding the Giants Vault
Mining for Ancient Secrets
The Dreaming Dark
Blown to bits
Power play
Schemes of the enemy
The weapons shipment
Wrath of the flame
Bastion of Power
A new invasion
Sins of Attrition

Of course if those are too difficult you can also run quite a few good xp level 17 quests for a 10% penalty, or no penalty if you don't take 19.

[jwdaniels]

I'll be the first to ask this:


Why did you take level 19 in the first place? It's almost always pointless and it diminishes your ability to find groups and to gain exp running quests.

[Jay203]

As challenges do not have repeat penalties, they are never ending sources of xp. I don't see the problem.

the problem is he doesn't get his easy button anymore

[goodspeed]

if your dead at 19 I don't think theirs help for that poor downtrodden Mr Hyde of a character. Best put one in his head to save him from starving.

[FZTopaz]

Seriously, i capped my first character after two years, did it after U14. It took me three days to go from 18 to 20. I have never run a cannith challenge. I actually hadn't run any of the quests in House C. I also had not run any of Amrath, Reavers, or anything. Heck, there are so many quests in this game I HAVEN'T run, I'm surprised anyone is complaining about not enough xp. I also did it without any elite streak (ran almost everything on normal after 16) and not running any raids that give xp. Still haven't run Reaver raid, titan, hound, ToD, only completed one quest from Amrath, one quest from DD, finished IQ on normal (one elite run on The Mindsunder), and ran some shroud quests that I also had only run one or two times.

I am now level 23, and got there from running through KF, did the eveningstar chain twice, two quests in the drow city, red fens on epic, lords of dust on epic, and Beyond the Rift on epic. Finally ran one House C quest (the one where you have the optional fight at the end with the giant construct...forgot the name of it). Again, I seriously don't see where this lack of xp is.....

[Elaril]

The real issue here is that challenges suck and are boring. I have not found one that is at all enjoyable, and the majority of them are just torture to do. They need to re-think their approach to challenges and their ridiculous kobold obsession.

Kobold voices are annoying, not cute or entertaining in the least. It's like a five year old trying to baby talk you into trying to get his way. Stop it already. You're five. You're not getting the gi-joe.

If challenges were fun, enjoyable and had a replay value higher than zero then I don't think anyone would mind their xp being **** as well. As it stands, they'd have to pay me to run them.

[Tiamas]

The real issue here is that challenges suck and are boring. I have not found one that is at all enjoyable, and the majority of them are just torture to do. They need to re-think their approach to challenges and their ridiculous kobold obsession.

Kobold voices are annoying, not cute or entertaining in the least. It's like a five year old trying to baby talk you into trying to get his way. Stop it already. You're five. You're not getting the gi-joe.

If challenges were fun, enjoyable and had a replay value higher than zero then I don't think anyone would mind their xp being **** as well. As it stands, they'd have to pay me to run them.

The real real issue is, that some people just cant accept that challenges are just adventures with a different name and got nerfed XP wise. There was no adjusting, no balancing, just a massive nerf. Nuke all XP of all other adventures (called quests and raids) and lets see how much fun the game is after that.

You dont like challenges? Absolutely fine, but remember: Sun is not orbitting you.

[Elaril]

The real real issue is, that some people just cant accept that challenges are just adventures with a different name and got nerfed XP wise. There was no adjusting, no balancing, just a massive nerf. Nuke all XP of all other adventures (called quests and raids) and lets see how much fun the game is after that.

You dont like challenges? Absolutely fine, but remember: Sun is not orbitting you.

Well you got a laugh out of me.

[InfidelofHaLL]

Uhm... No there isn't. When your on your 3rd life quests that can be solo'd are pretty scarce. You have a choice... Slayer or Challenges. I bought the pack myself when I heard about the xp for my TR. It got me from 18 to 20 a week before they NERFED the xp. I agree it needed an adjustment but to Turbine adjustmnets are done with chainsaws and axes.

Well if you can't solo get a group. Getting from 18-20 is easy quests to solo up without doing challeneges.. it doesn't matter what life you on soloing is soloing either you can do it or you can't which obvisouly you have just stated you can't

[Loriac]

reason why people pointed out the contracts which is a huge reason to show the op that they as turbine can do whatever they want its their game. If you don't read your contract just signing it. you could be signing your soul to them. what right would you have later on saying i didn't see that. Who's fault would that be? yours. you want a great example of abuse and parody of the contracts. go look up human centipede episode by south park.

Its a perfect example of you thinking you get everything but fail to read those contracts you sign away or accept. just don't blame anyone else if you can't read.

when i saw the challenge pack come out there was 0 PROMISES that was going to be a great xp or give AWESOME items or TONS of ingredients. there was none of that. So anyone thinks your owed anything. Your wrong. the pack provides xp items ingredients and other things you can turn in. It delivers what it promises. Sure it might not be the worth the cost of turbine points.

But seriously no where in this game have i see an official response promising 100k xp from the challenges.

I don't know if you're being deliberately legalistic on this, or you just don't get the point.

Contracts like the one between Turbine and its players are inherently one sided; customers do not have the power to renegotiate any terms, as each individual purchase is a relatively small transaction to Turbine. Therefore, for customers, you 'accept' the contract by purchasing the game (or content) but your main source of power is in being able to refuse to buy additional content at a later date.

There is a large element of faith in Turbine maintaining its game and its content in a manner that allows you to continue to enjoy the content you've purchased. This is particularly true for the premium model, where you have in a sense paid for the right to access the content for as long as Turbine maintains its servers etc. Where wholesale changes are made, customers are unlikely to sue for damages, as its simply not worth the cost of proceeding - better to accept your sunk costs and move on (to other games).

All businesses, and Turbine is no exception, find it cheaper to get repeat business from existing customers than to get new business from new customers. Therefore its in Turbine's commercial interests to act in good faith with regard to its content.

Just to touch on a legal aspect very quickly: most countries, and I think this applies to the US (I'm not based there, so not sure of the precise set up) have consumer legislation in place because of the inherent one-sidedness of contracts between businesses and individual consumers. EULAs are a complete joke, and unenforceable because they are unlikely to pass reasonableness tests vs. consumer rights bills. Obviously you're aware of this from one of your earlier comments, but this is aimed more at other people throwing around EULA content as if it means anything.

Back to your argument, take it to its logical conclusion. What you're saying is that you have extremely low expectations of the content that will be made available to you by Turbine - as you note, they have the right to unilaterally make any and all changes that they arbitrarily see fit to. As a consumer, you (presumably) enjoy the game now, but this could change at any time and you would have no recourse. However, you are able, at any point of your choosing, to stop paying Turbine at all. If this is the substantive basis on which you play the game, my question would be why? You must have some degree of faith in Turbine that they will continue to maintain the game in a state you find enjoyable, otherwise all the time and money you put into it will potentially be wasted. I don't get why anyone would put themselves into that position.

The OPs position is valid in the sense that Turbine maintained challenges on a stable basis for a relatively long period of time. He, and other players like him, probably bought the challenge pack on the basis of his experience in trying out the free daily tokens. Turbine changing the cannith challenges out of the blue, apparently in response to a problem that affected the FR challenges rather than the cannith ones, does seem arbitrary. Your position is obviously right legalistically, i.e. he would have no legal basis to take action on a 'bait and switch' argument, but it seems to miss the obvious frustration that Turbine has caused a significant number of its players by taking the approach it did.

Finally, my understanding of whats happened with the challenges is that Turbine has recognised that they over-nerfed the challenge xp, and a fix has been promised. That its not a server side switch to multiply all challenge xp by some amount is a good thing - I take that to mean that the devs responsible for this will try to put in a framework that is consistent and fair across all existing (and all future) challenges.

Basically, I do have faith that Turbine will maintain the game in a manner that I find enjoyable. There are some decisions they've taken that I'm not happy with, but in general it seems reasonably clear to me what classes and playstyles are unlikely to be hit by nerfs going forward. That doesn't stop me recognising obvious blunders made by Turbine (and the potentially negative impact such blunders could have on their revenues over time).

[Viisari]

The last Cannith challenges I did got me around 500k xp in maybe 2 hours, not too bad imo.

Repeats are probably pretty crappy though, haven't tested those.

[Drekisen]

Just play a different game for a while...this is exactly the reason why I only play one toon per game.....eventually the devs will get it right...until then you can be somewhere else enjoying yourself :D


or you could cozy up to a nice book.....your imagination will make anything the devs can invent look like 2d junk

[Hilltrot]

I don't know if you're being deliberately legalistic on this, or you just don't get the point.

Contracts like the one between Turbine and its players are inherently one sided; customers do not have the power to renegotiate any terms, as each individual purchase is a relatively small transaction to Turbine. Therefore, for customers, you 'accept' the contract by purchasing the game (or content) but your main source of power is in being able to refuse to buy additional content at a later date.

You accept the contract when you click the "I accept" button not when you purchase the game . . . For those of us who purchased the original game.

You have the power to write Turbine and demand that the terms be renegotiated. They have the power to ignore you.



There is a large element of faith in Turbine maintaining its game and its content in a manner that allows you to continue to enjoy the content you've purchased. This is particularly true for the premium model, where you have in a sense paid for the right to access the content for as long as Turbine maintains its servers etc. Where wholesale changes are made, customers are unlikely to sue for damages, as its simply not worth the cost of proceeding - better to accept your sunk costs and move on (to other games).

You will be unable to sue for damages unless you can prove that Turbine purposefully mislead you. They never mislead you. Not once did they say you would be guaranteed a certain amount of experience. Any lawsuit you file in th US will be considered frivolous and will result in you paying yours and Turbine's legal fees.


All businesses, and Turbine is no exception, find it cheaper to get repeat business from existing customers than to get new business from new customers.

You couldn't be more wrong. In fact, the opposite is true in gaming.

Especially free-to-play. Newer players will spend more actual dough. You laugh at someone buying a flaming long sword? Well, A newbie player will buy it. Tons of things are bought by a newbie that veteran old timers won't spend a cent on. All the new adventures get bought. Cannith crafting materials. Silver Falchions. All those things that people who have started and continued this forum complaint post won't spend a dime on.

Gaming industry is like the toy industry. Your customers are always changing. The idea is to get new customers, not keep old ones. Turbine knows this. The hate page from old timers getting upset and saying they will quit was quite long when the change to FTP was made. Old timers said stat tomes should not purchasable as they had worked so hard for their own. Turbine ignored them and went FTP anyway.

Old-time "good" players in FTP tend to spend little money and cost a fortune to placate. They cry about things they spent $15 on a year ago.

Sure, Turbine would like to keep as many old players as possible, but to survive, they need to attract new players far more.


Therefore its in Turbine's commercial interests to act in good faith with regard to its content.

In regard to what's discussed in this thread, Turbine has acted in good faith. They have provided everything that they've advertised.


Just to touch on a legal aspect very quickly: most countries, and I think this applies to the US (I'm not based there, so not sure of the precise set up) have consumer legislation in place because of the inherent one-sidedness of contracts between businesses and individual consumers. EULAs are a complete joke, and unenforceable because they are unlikely to pass reasonableness tests vs. consumer rights bills. Obviously you're aware of this from one of your earlier comments, but this is aimed more at other people throwing around EULA content as if it means anything.

In the U.S., you can reverse credit card charges. (I have never done this to Turbine.) As long as the amount is not too much, Turbine and its large parent company will simply refuse to do business with you ever again. This can sting in the long run. Especially, if you do it to enough companies.

EULAs are completely upheld in the U.S.

All the EULA really does is protect Turbine from people frivolously asking for their money back when there is no evidence that they attempted to defraud anyone. Like many people on this forum are claiming. It also protects them from federal law which prevents people in the U.S. from legally gambling online. There are a number of other things involved in it as well.

You might win a lawsuit in another country, but unless your country provides a sizably larger income to Turbine than the lawsuit will cost, they will likely respond by ceasing to do business with your country and not paying.


Back to your argument, take it to its logical conclusion. What you're saying is that you have extremely low expectations of the content that will be made available to you by Turbine - as you note, they have the right to unilaterally make any and all changes that they arbitrarily see fit to. As a consumer, you (presumably) enjoy the game now, but this could change at any time and you would have no recourse. However, you are able, at any point of your choosing, to stop paying Turbine at all. If this is the substantive basis on which you play the game, my question would be why? You must have some degree of faith in Turbine that they will continue to maintain the game in a state you find enjoyable, otherwise all the time and money you put into it will potentially be wasted. I don't get why anyone would put themselves into that position.

You're assuming that because people disagree with you, they have low expectations for the game. I have high expectations for the game and I believe that closing this XP exploit was valid and important in making the game better.


The OPs position is valid in the sense that Turbine maintained challenges on a stable basis for a relatively long period of time. He, and other players like him, probably bought the challenge pack on the basis of his experience in trying out the free daily tokens. Turbine changing the cannith challenges out of the blue, apparently in response to a problem that affected the FR challenges rather than the cannith ones, does seem arbitrary. Your position is obviously right legalistically, i.e. he would have no legal basis to take action on a 'bait and switch' argument, but it seems to miss the obvious frustration that Turbine has caused a significant number of its players by taking the approach it did.

There is nothing valid about the OPs position. There are no 19's unable to find anything to level to 20. That is a lie. If the OP were honest, he would say that he was too cheap to buy any adventure packs which would easily enable him to level to 20. That is the reason why nerfing this XP exploit was in the best interest of Turbine.

FTP by itself can be considered Bait-in-switch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch. Bait-in-switch is only illegal in certain cases.

I'll agree that Turbine could have handled this better while getting the same result.


Finally, my understanding of whats happened with the challenges is that Turbine has recognised that they over-nerfed the challenge xp, and a fix has been promised. That its not a server side switch to multiply all challenge xp by some amount is a good thing - I take that to mean that the devs responsible for this will try to put in a framework that is consistent and fair across all existing (and all future) challenges.

Basically, I do have faith that Turbine will maintain the game in a manner that I find enjoyable. There are some decisions they've taken that I'm not happy with, but in general it seems reasonably clear to me what classes and playstyles are unlikely to be hit by nerfs going forward. That doesn't stop me recognising obvious blunders made by Turbine (and the potentially negative impact such blunders could have on their revenues over time).

I doubt this had a negative impact on their revenues. It's more likely that this increased revenues by encouraging players to buy other adventure packs. They will even out the experience some, I'm sure. So that they can sell the challenge pack to new players.

[fenrissulf]

Given you seem quite demanding about proper and law abiding language usage; nothing in what he is complaining about is an exploit of any kind so please stop referring to it as such.

[Nagantor]

Short summary:

1. All is legal.
2. No exploits used.
3. Game got changed to modify the time and amount of different quests required to reach 20 with reasonable effort.

4. Open a LFM of your own, with the right max level, ignore those over level complaining that you should only run the quest for loot not xp and go cap.

[DogMania]

The only challange I have is getting my toons to cap without doing them and as I is on its 8th life I do not see a problem, so why you are stuck at lvl19 I have no idea

[Mathermune]

One challenge was giving an absurd amount of xp. Turbine's response was to rip out xp for every challenge. Ask yourself had you bought the Cannith challenge packs, why run challenges now?

1) xp? Haha, oh wow!
2) Favour? Sure, on the ones that can actually be 6 starred (because some are not technically possible without emptying your DDO points on turret requisitions.)
3) Renown? Pfft hope your guild doesn't kick you for not contributing your daily allowance.
4) Fun? So much fun running Rushmore to find I need four scorpion crests and three spawn on the entire accessible parts of the map.

That leaves us with loot. Which requires multiples runs and is probably worth it. But once you have it. What incentive do you have to replay?

5) Replay value? Zero.

Did they break any laws? Of course not. Was it an epic abridged Richard move? For me it was.

Disclaimer

I actually enjoy about 50% of the challenges and mostly solo them.

I refuse to run Rushmore because it can be failed regardless of player skill. 15 minutes to earn nothing, thanks for that.
I refuse to run Kobold Island because it's boring and "A small ex-tractor is un-der attack" ENDLESSLY!

[Loriac]

You couldn't be more wrong. In fact, the opposite is true in gaming.

Especially free-to-play. Newer players will spend more actual dough. You laugh at someone buying a flaming long sword? Well, A newbie player will buy it. Tons of things are bought by a newbie that veteran old timers won't spend a cent on. All the new adventures get bought. Cannith crafting materials. Silver Falchions. All those things that people who have started and continued this forum complaint post won't spend a dime on.

Gaming industry is like the toy industry. Your customers are always changing. The idea is to get new customers, not keep old ones. Turbine knows this. The hate page from old timers getting upset and saying they will quit was quite long when the change to FTP was made. Old timers said stat tomes should not purchasable as they had worked so hard for their own. Turbine ignored them and went FTP anyway.

Old-time "good" players in FTP tend to spend little money and cost a fortune to placate. They cry about things they spent $15 on a year ago.

Sure, Turbine would like to keep as many old players as possible, but to survive, they need to attract new players far more.


On your other points, I think we're talking at cross purposes; you seem to be focused entirely on the legal aspects, which I do not dispute. Rather, I'm talking about maintaining customer goodwill and trust, over and above the strictly minimal legal requirements a company has. If your business is engaging with customers by pointing to contractual terms, then you're already in pretty bad shape vis-a-vis the relationship - this applies pretty much across the board for all consumer transactions (its different for business to business relationships, where contracts are seen more as a two-way conversation than in business to consumer relationships, where contracts are typically take it or leave it).

On the point quoted above: I think you're wrong. The TP spent on flaming longsword of pure uselessness on the store are trivial compared to purchases of things like adventure packs, character slots, hearts of wood, xp elixirs and so on.

Maintaining a flow of new customers is of course necessary, in this as in any other business (at a bare minimum, new customer revenues need to exceed revenue lost from customers leaving). New customers when they first come to the game might spend a few hundred TP here or there as you suggest, but they're not likely to commit large amounts of cash until they are sufficiently hooked into the game. Most F2P customers that try out DDO do not fall into this category. Turbine can and does make every effort to convert F2P into lasting premium or VIP customers, but unless they convert, they bring no revenue to the company.

I would guess, based on the DDO playerbase being generally older (in age) than other MMOs, that each individual long-term player does spend a lot more than you might think on the game. VIPs already spend $10 or whatever it is per month, whilst those like me who converted from VIP to premium spent enough TPs to get all the content plus unlocks for races / classes we use (in my case for example, I have purchased all content plus spent TPs on various reincarnations, storage, classes, xp consumables etc, which if I was to count it up is probably around 40,000TP since I went premium; also, I was a subscriber from 2006 on the EU servers, so you can calculate how much that adds up to over the full duration).

Now the thing is, if I was to leave the game tomorrow, I obviously get nothing back (and thats fine). But, for as long as I stay, I'm very likely to purchase whatever Turbine puts out in terms of new content. From Turbine's point of view, I'm a customer who they've had a lot of revenue from over time, and who is going to give them more in the future almost on a guaranteed basis provided I'm still playing. The same is not true for new F2P players who are merely trying the game; whilst it may improve short term marketing KPIs for Turbine, their bottom line is going to be significantly driven by their ability to retain their existing premium and VIP customers.

The toy industry is a slightly odd comparison; thats a market where your end customers age out of your products, meaning there is no such thing as a long-term customer. The MMO market is not really like that; many people playing DDO now played EQ when it first came out over 15 years ago, and whilst we may have played different games during that time, we are long-term consumers of products in this niche. Turbine has to update its product to maintain player interest, but thats not the same as saying they can afford to have their entire customer base churn over a 2 year period or whatever.

The forums are where people come to 'cry about' $15 they spent. If you think thats all the old players do however based on the forum posts you see, then you're making a huge logical error. Most of Turbine's VIP and premium players are spending a few dollars a month on the game, and not complaining about this spend as they're busy enjoying the game instead.

[Captain_Wizbang]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388518

[danotmano1998]

I understand, OP.

Had I spent the money to buy the challenges and then had them nerfed so badly, I would probably be annoyed as well.

It FEELS like bait and switch.
Turbine does this kind of thing all the time, if you haven't noticed.
I recommend that you learn from this experience.

In THIS particular case, a mechanic was used that wasn't intended allowing people to get a metric TON of xp very quickly. Instead of Turbine just fixing the one quest or mechanic, they nerfed the whole pack from orbit. Game over man!

The good news is that the dev's are looking at the XP and are supposedly willing to change it back to a more "reasonable" level.

I still have to laugh when I read the release notes.
"Challenge xp was adjusted to a more reasonable level."

What they should have said is: "Challenge XP has been drastically reduced to 1/4 of what it used to be." That would have been a lot more honest, but they didn't choose to go that route.

I feel your frustration, OP, and they are supposed to be fixing it again soon.

Happy Adventuring!

[MrElusiveness]

I understand, OP.

Had I spent the money to buy the challenges and then had them nerfed so badly, I would probably be annoyed as well.

It FEELS like bait and switch.
Turbine does this kind of thing all the time, if you haven't noticed.
I recommend that you learn from this experience.

In THIS particular case, a mechanic was used that wasn't intended allowing people to get a metric TON of xp very quickly. Instead of Turbine just fixing the one quest or mechanic, they nerfed the whole pack from orbit. Game over man!

The good news is that the dev's are looking at the XP and are supposedly willing to change it back to a more "reasonable" level.

I still have to laugh when I read the release notes.
"Challenge xp was adjusted to a more reasonable level."

What they should have said is: "Challenge XP has been drastically reduced to 1/4 of what it used to be." That would have been a lot more honest, but they didn't choose to go that route.

I feel your frustration, OP, and they are supposed to be fixing it again soon.

Happy Adventuring!

finaly, someone who read my post and see's what i was trying to get out there. thanks for the response. I have to laugh when I see all the other junk that was posted and how it got blown way out. rofl. but yeah the nerf was a NERF. not a reasonable adjustment for sure. I was so mad when i forced myself to grind some of the challenges in eve star only to find out that the random gen loot long bow I got for all my hard work was purely junk. not much xp gained to bother talking about. as far as the lvling a tr from 19-20 I did end up getting enough slayers from house c and amrath to make up for it. but what a pain.

[dterror]

The good news is that the dev's are looking at the XP and are supposedly willing to change it back to a more "reasonable" level.

I still have to laugh when I read the release notes.
"Challenge xp was adjusted to a more reasonable level."

What they should have said is: "Challenge XP has been drastically reduced to 1/4 of what it used to be." That would have been a lot more honest, but they didn't choose to go that route.


One of the devs already stated that the double xp nerf was an unintentional mistake and that it will be fixed with the next update / patch. I do have to laugh a bit at all the threads complaining about the challenge exp when the information is out there that the exp double nerf was an 'oops, my bad, flipped the wrong switch' move by Turbine and that it's being fixed...yet there are always more 'I can't get jack out of my challenges anymore, fix it now!' threads every day.

Patience is supposed to be a virtue, but from what I can see the vast bulk of the forum posters must be the most UNvirtuous bunch of people ever :D

[Tenlaar]

oops, my bad, flipped the wrong switch

Funny how much less time it takes for that switch to go down than to go back up.

[auntjobiska]

One of the devs already stated that the double xp nerf was an unintentional mistake and that it will be fixed with the next update / patch. I do have to laugh a bit at all the threads complaining about the challenge exp when the information is out there that the exp double nerf was an 'oops, my bad, flipped the wrong switch' move by Turbine and that it's being fixed...yet there are always more 'I can't get jack out of my challenges anymore, fix it now!' threads every day.

Patience is supposed to be a virtue, but from what I can see the vast bulk of the forum posters must be the most UNvirtuous bunch of people ever :D

The sad thing is that it was a flick of the switch to cut the XP and yet takes a lengthy development to put it back. Why not flick the switch back and close the particular challenge that was giving the problem? They seem able to close other quests when there is some sort of 'issue' with them. Why would this be any different?

AJ