Yet another patch without any Greatswords

[Meiron]

This is getting to be a real problem. This whole expansion I've been looking for a new greatsword to upgrade my WF FVS, because that's the weapon my class and race specializes in, and there have been exactly 0 named greatswords. No, the one from Belly of the Beast doesn't count because you can't carry it out of the quest and get to use it for about 30 seconds.

Seriously, greatswords are a very popular and iconic weapon type, surely a lot more popular than longswords, melee quarterstaffs, or kamas. There's probably 10 WF FVS for every single longsword or staff-based melee character, or Monk who uses kamas instead of handwraps...combined. We are all clamoring for an alternative to the Epic Sword of Shadows shard lottery.

[Saravis]

I'd like to see a Falchion at some point myself. How many good named Falchions do we have?

[Wraith_Sarevok]

I'd love to see a scythe.

[Meiron]

How about this one from the new raid? Excellent stats and can be made part of a set bonus.

http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Breach,_The_Dividing_Blade.jpg

[Saravis]

How about this one from the new raid? Excellent stats and can be made part of a set bonus.

http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Breach,_The_Dividing_Blade.jpg

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that one. Not a clue if its any good though, it seems kind of decent.

[Meiron]

I'd love to see a scythe.

I don't think the weapon type even exists in DDO does it? If it did, it would be the equivalent of a two handed version of a pick, which as I recall was not especially popular. Anyway the greatsword is a basic martial weapon that's been well supported in DDO...except this latest expansion and Update 15. That's the anomaly.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

I don't think the weapon type even exists in DDO does it? If it did, it would be the equivalent of a two handed version of a pick, which as I recall was not especially popular. Anyway the greatsword is a basic martial weapon that's been well supported in DDO...except this latest expansion and Update 15. That's the anomaly.

Eh... it's a piercing or slashing martial weapon in 3.5 edition. Neverwinter Nights implemented it as a piercing AND slashing exotic weapon. It was insanely popular in that game. Neverwinter Nights 2 changed it back to martial, which is more accurate to 3.5 edition.

So yeah I could argue that it should use the slashing weapon feats and do both slash + pierce damage. Pretty easy to implement if they ever decide to do it. I mean we have druids now but no scythes? Hello Turbine!?

[porq]

I'd like to see a Falchion at some point myself. How many good named Falchions do we have?

Well, we have eXuum, the step brother to the esos. Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to make because it's a desert epic item. I wish they would rework that somehow.


I don't think the weapon type even exists in DDO does it? If it did, it would be the equivalent of a two handed version of a pick, which as I recall was not especially popular. Anyway the greatsword is a basic martial weapon that's been well supported in DDO...except this latest expansion and Update 15. That's the anomaly.

A scythe should be pretty good. Scythe stats pulled from the Players handbook is a two hander [2d4] 20/x4.
It's basically a greataxe with a natural x4 multiplier and piercing damage.

That's basically the reason why the greataxe was the red-headed step child in the tabletop realm. Your average level 1 barbarian would probably be carrying one, but ditch it later for one of these.

[Meiron]

As I recall the scythe was only popular in NWN because of the weapon master prestige class, which gave massively increased threat range to a weapon of their choice. We have Kensai, but it's a pale shadow of what weapon master did.

Anyway that's neither here nor there. I just want the devs to be aware we have a severe greatsword shortage right now in the Forgotten Realms. As in, there isn't even a single named greatsword available. When we start getting six versions of named kamas before a single named greatsword, that's a sign of misplaced priorities. Greatswords are far more popular and far more desired.

[Potta]

I don't expect any new named Greatswords - better than the eSoS at least, which, lets face it, is an unstated requirement in this thread - before Update 17. Maybe 18.

You've drawn a comparison between 6 named kama's before we get one new greatsword, but the fact is they're not comparable in the slightest. Kamas' are a trash weapon used in flavour or RP builds. Turbine can easily add a new named kama - or similar weapon - into the game without it changing much. The poor base weapon stats on the kama make it almost impossible for it to compare well against even a below average greatsword. When you ask for a new greatsword, what you're doing by extension is also saying, "can you increase the top end of melee DPS?"

That's what'd happen. It's not just a matter of itemization, it's a matter of class balance. So you may argue that class balance is always changing and it could do with a swing or two in the melee direction. I'd say you're probably right. But now is not the time. People are only just finishing grinding out their twists of fate. There's only one new raid and it's been incredibly buggy recently. There's been no time for Turbine to gather in-game data about the current state of DPS. If they're going to make a decision that affects class balance, I'd prefer to believe they do it from a position of understanding where they're at right now before they go stepping off into the dark.

To further compound this issue, we've been told the enhancement revamp is coming in U16. Maybe it will and maybe it won't, but the fact is it's coming soon. We know this will be huge. If I were a dev right now, I'd be telling the itemization team to go easy on potentially build making, truly epic, droolworthy weapons right now. Because I'd be using my tinkering in the enhancement revamp to balance the classes. The last thing I'd need as a dev is some wombat with thing for stupidly powerful weapons to throw a spanner into the works and force me to rework a potentially unreleased enhancement line or prestige because the two would be too good together. And in the long run, we'd agree with this hypothetical dev because we'd rather see weapons balanced around characters rather than character abilities balanced around weapons we might get. If we're lucky.

So yeah, if the dev team is smart, they probably won't release any large upgrades over what we have right now until the dust from both EDs and the Enhancement revamp has settled.

This theory by the way is also why I was entirely unsurprised about the weapon variety in CitW. A so-so caster staff? A weapon for Acrobats? A Warhammer?? All this and no Khopesh, no GS, no wraps until recently? Not surprising at all. They're all niche, flavour choices.

[Fefnir_2011]

@Potta: I understand what you're saying, but a new greatsword for melee Favored Souls doesn't necessarily have to raise the top end of DPS. A greatsword that falls somewhere in between greensteel and eSoS, but also has good spellpower attributes, would be sought after by many for its slot consolidation.

[Potta]

And for every one person who appreciated the slot consolidation, there'd be another two FvS who'd say they'd never use that unless it did more DPS. Then you've got the hordes of Barb's who'd revolt in disgust that the epic GS they'd all been waiting for to take the crown of eSoS was really a caster stick.

That is a no-win situation for Turbine. I don't blame them for not sticking their head into that lions den.

[zarthak]

How about this one from the new raid? Excellent stats and can be made part of a set bonus.

http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Breach,_The_Dividing_Blade.jpg


we must be seeing a different weapon because all i see is P.O.S

[Meiron]

There is a currently a huge gap in greatswords from greensteel, which is easy to acquire and fairly powerful, to eSoS, with the rather lackluster and far too difficult to acquire alchemical gapstop inbetween. There needs to be Forgotten Realms greatswords that aren't as good as the eSoS but are still very good weapons, clear upgrades from greensteel, the same way there are for almost every other weapon type.

Case in point, falchions, just based on the natural crit profile alone, are already the preferred two handed weapons. Not only that but greataxes are much much better off in the new expansion because the two primary melee DPS Epic Destinies have many skills that expand threat range, which disproportionately helps low threat range high threat multiplier weapons like greataxes. Yet there is both a falchion and a greataxe in the new raid. Those weapons are sidegrades or a slight downgrade to the eSoS. I'm asking for a sidegrade or a slight downgrade for greatswords. Just to expand our options. You don't even need to add spellpower to it, it's fine, we have many options for spellpower now with the new cloak and the drow trinket, but zero new greatsword options!

[Therrias]

They must assume that everyone that wants one, has one, or can get one easily enough.

I've been playing that lottery quite a bit, but no wins yet

[Dolphious]

I agree we're due for some kind of new greatsword. Whether it should be better, worse, or about the same as the ESOS is another question.

[SEMPER]

I think we should have several weapons equal to the Esos in some shape or form , I mean come on , it comes out of one of the oldest raids in the game there should've been a weapon by now that is equal to it. Let alone why do the THF's get to have all the fun :)

[Meiron]

I agree, right now we don't even have another named greatsword that's anywhere close to the eSoS, at least let us have SOMETHING that's a clear upgrade from greensteel, alchemical barely counts, and honestly isn't even run that often anymore.

[azrael4h]

we must be seeing a different weapon because all i see is P.O.S

You asked about named Falchions, no one ever said they'd ever be any good! :P

[Jaxom_Faux]

I will throw out that cloudburst got a stealth upgrade and I'm loving it. Still I agree it'd be nice to a have a caster greatsword on my cleric or simply some new cool greatswords.... still haven't managed to find a drow greatsword yet to see if that's decent.

[Meiron]

I've been looking for a drow greatsword too. Interestingly enough I've seen kopeshes, scimitars, duergar waraxe and even a drow quarterstaff.

[Therrias]

I will throw out that cloudburst got a stealth upgrade and I'm loving it. Still I agree it'd be nice to a have a caster greatsword on my cleric or simply some new cool greatswords.... still haven't managed to find a drow greatsword yet to see if that's decent.

Cloudburst is about equal to greensteel now.

Its very nice, but not much of an upgrade from greensteel.

[Meiron]

We don't need sidegrades to level 12 and 14 loot. We need some new lvl 20+ named greatswords. As opposed to the zero we have.

[kierg10]

agreed. since i dont have my sos shard I just use my lit 2 except when I need DR breakers or if an enemy is immune to shock/holy or if I want to use a smiter/disruptor/other

on another note: u14.1 actually reduced the number of good greatswords we had with the terror nerf, which was a good sword to use in anything until epics/after motu any epic raids/regular raids/higher lvl epics/epic elites.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

on another note: u14.1 actually reduced the number of good greatswords we had with the terror nerf, which was a good sword to use in anything until epics/after motu any epic raids/regular raids/higher lvl epics/epic elites.

Terror is right where it's supposed to be now.

It was never meant to compete with endgame-level raid loot and was definitely never meant to compete with an epic weapon 10x harder to get. It was just a fun gimmick weapon to use when you were bored or when looking for a leveling tool.

[Meiron]

Yes given how easy it is to get Terror it shouldn't outclass epic weapons. However there are no proper epic weapons for a WF FVS right now besides the eSoS, whose availability is up to the gods of the shard lottery. That's not a very reliable source. We need a competitive weapon in the 20+ range. Not better than the eSoS, but maybe not much worse, either. It can have normal threat ranges and weapon dice but be loaded with light based damage effects, like many of the raid weapons seem to be themed around.

[krackythehoodedone]

I think your problem is that the ESOS is so way in front of anything else your stuck with it

I cant see a more powerful weapon coming out. All the new ones even though they come from higher level content just dont match an ESOS

ESOS has already been nerfed twice. I remember when it did 6-36 damage. So get in that Dragon nest and go buy lots of timer breaking hourglasses to grind for a Shard whose drop rate is gonna get reduced

I'm guessing you are still looking for the Shard ? Or are you just bored of it ?

[Meiron]

Yeah I'm looking for the shard, like every melee. I'm also bored of the grind, but those two aren't mutually exclusive. The point I made earlier though is that just because a particular weapon is good doesn't mean all other weapons are pointless, or all weapons in its category. The eSoS is so rare that there's room for good greatswords still.

[Nagantor]

Case in point, falchions, just based on the natural crit profile alone, are already the preferred two handed weapons. Not only that but greataxes are much much better off in the new expansion because the two primary melee DPS Epic Destinies have many skills that expand threat range, which disproportionately helps low threat range high threat multiplier weapons like greataxes.

Have people thrown away their math skills? Falchion is worse then Greatsword unless you have very strong burst effects or a huge bonus to damage.
Yes, you add up to 5% chance of a crit. But the problem is that the Greatsword is already 2 base damage ahead and in 20% of the cases that bonus gets doubled up as well. If you increase crit range by a fixed amount like +1 - Greatsword gains edge! You need to increase crit multiplier to help the Falchion.
Generally, your 5% bonus crit chance and burst damage have to catch up on the better base damage and its effect on crit damage in the shared crit cases.

Now we got those +X[W] effects. What are those doing per 0.5[W] step?
- Falchion gains 1D4 so 2.5 average dmg and 0.25 * 2.5 = 0.625 crit damage. 3.125 total dmg
- Greatsword gains 1D6 so 3.5 average dmg and 0.2 * 3.5 = 0.7 crit damge. 4.2 total dmg

Increased crit range by same amount once again favors... the Greatsword.

Now, we got the higher AC of mobs and fortification on the important enemies - crits are less likely to be confirmed and more likely to be resisted. You can safely say the real number is noticeably below 5% difference. Guess who wins out?
Fun fact: at levels (character + available buffs) where your base damage starts to reach the level where the Falchion might win out against the Greatsword +X[W] and mob fortification / high AC also become more frequent.

The latter fact also helps Greatsword win out against Greataxe. Without crit range modifier, it's ahead for having 2D6 = 7 compared to 1D12 = 6.5 average damage and more likely burst damage. Increased critical multiplier doesn't help the Greataxe either, neither on whole range nor restricted to 19-20 as the Greatsword gains better base damage.
Increasing the crit range by same amount does of course favor an x3 crit weapon over an x2 crit weapon.

If you want to approach real world even further, you need to consider stuff like excess damage. Very huge spike crits from a Greataxe will have more wasted damage then the lesser crit from a Greatsword. In crowded situation where the next blow has already a target, this does influence your effective DPS.

But that's only mathematics. A huge crit with 300% of the required damage to kill is still fun to see on your screen! Why kill a mob when you can devastate it? ;-)

[Meiron]

Very good points, but the real life situation is even more complicated because on the mobs with the highest fortifications, there are often multiple sources of fortification reduction as well. Not to mention huge crits are rarely wasted because even the average epic enemy has HP well into the thousands.

With all the available stats and buffs from before MotU falchion was already the king of two handed weapons at end game, with all the new Epic Destiny buffs the gap it has over greatswords is only going to increase.

That's not really the point though, we need more greatswords not because they're the best weapon type ever, but because they're a common weapon type useful to many people, and there are zero named greatswords in the expansion.