DDO bosses

[Havok.cry]

I've been thinking about the various bosses in DDO, and have come to the conclusion that sorjek iincani is the best DDO boss, in either incarnation, in terms of interesting dungeon, interesting on your toes fighting, and the clear story he has the players participating in.

One reason he is the best imho is he, unlike other ddo bosses uses terrain to his advantage. From filling the area with defensive mists to blowing foes off the top of his mountain, to even drawing a party across a room only to have mephits spawn on the other side difficult to spot due to the mists.

No you might say that other bosses do simular things, but most, to me feel far more gimicky. Examples would involve monologue during which the boss is invincible, flying up, jumping up or teleporting up to a perfectly visible spot, but somehow being invulnerable while there. Super powerful bosses that are easily controlled or surrounded and defeated, due to total predictability, IE any pitfiend or lord of blades. The closest boss to sorjec is imho malucia due to her use of her abilities to her best advantage, although ever her fight in under the big top would have been much cooler if, instead of mass charming at scripted intervals, there were continuous small waves of friendlies that she keeps mass charming. The scripted boss events are the final reason sorjek is just that much better than any of the other bosses, as his abilities don't seem to have scripted parts at all.

Imagine if DQ could teleport like hezerou, and rage when ever she wanted. Imagine if velah could jump back into the air and place and inferno right on top of us. Imagine if aeritrikos's meteor swarm strafes were actually directed to ground that wasn't empty. Imagine if lord if blades was relentlessly using his abilities. Imagine if toven would randomly drop his shield, heal his pets a bit and then raise them back up and chug pots. Imagine if the stormreaver summoned all his massive armies instead of random elementals, and actually didnt give the players the ability to defeat him. Imagine if sully's agroo couldn't be held because he was teleporting around to engage anyone supporting those fighting horoth... Imagine if horoth disjunctioned before banishing. Imagine if the black abbot acted like the ascendant god of the undead rather than a xorian outcast and defended himself with more than minigames.

Please devs give us more bosses like sorjek incani... Or however you spell it.

[KainLionheart]

I thought Eladrin was the boss?

[Mastikator]

I thought Eladrin was the boss?

That would be an interesting boss fight. (http://www.explosm.net/comics/2637/)

[Ausdoerrt]

Abbot is like that and more, if the rest of the raid wan't so buggy, and didn't have a really annoying flagging mechanic, it'd be the best raid in the game. I dunno what was the last time you ran Abbot (and whether they re-nerfed him), but the raid fight is challenging and fun.

[Qhualor]

i think the reason why we dont have velah flying around spitting fireballs at us, why harry doesnt fly up from being surrounded, why sulu doesnt do a tailwhip when he is in the corner and why all the other boss dont do more than just stand there or scripted move around is because of more coding.

the game would be a lot more fun, interesting and unpredictable if they could do more to fight back, retreat and use the powers they cant unleash. this why i enjoy pugging for the most part. scripted and anticipated boss movements eventually get dull. you can usually rely on pugs to do something out of the ordinary to keep you on your toes.

[Havok.cry]

Abbot is like that and more, if the rest of the raid wan't so buggy, and didn't have a really annoying flagging mechanic, it'd be the best raid in the game. I dunno what was the last time you ran Abbot (and whether they re-nerfed him), but the raid fight is challenging and fun.

My problem with abbot isn't the end fight, its that this being who is trying to ascend to godhood is defending himself with minigames. Thematically it just makes no sense at all. It would make sense if he was aligned with xoriat, but he isn't. seriously what kind of person gives you the means, tools, and opportunity to defeat him? Only boss with worse desicion making skills is imho stormreaver.

Sorjek doesn't suffer from that with either quest he is in. Both have a good design that fits thematically, and is designed to play to the mobs strengths rather than the players... Although some giants knocking people off the narrow ledges players must traverse on tempest spine would have been cool.

[Sonos]

Kai-Teng Fairuza is a pretty sweet red name mini-boss. Cool mechanics.

[articwarrior]

That settles it... EPIC TEMPEST SPINE!!!!!!!!!!

[Raithe]

Please devs give us more bosses like sorjek incani... Or however you spell it.

Meh... I like Sorjek about the least, maybe a step above Velah and the vampire in House P.

I was trying to think of my favorite boss fight, and it occurred to me that I don't really have one. They are all boring, stale, tightly-controlled grindfests made by grinder-oriented mentalities for the same. In reality most of the bosses of the game should be running scared after noticing that you just wiped out the rest of their compatriots. Instead, they let you pound on them for 5 minutes.

Instead of a "boss" fight, why not have a large multi-target battle with enemies spawning in random locations and attacking flanks. Then after you get done with the battle, you go into the back room, find the big bad evil guy cowering in the corner, and finish him off quickly or complete the quest in an alternative fashion.

Maybe a bit like the end for Cabal for One and a few others (Chains of Flame, Offering of Blood, Trial by Fire, etc.)

[Havok.cry]

Meh... I like Sorjek about the least, maybe a step above Velah and the vampire in House P.

I was trying to think of my favorite boss fight, and it occurred to me that I don't really have one. They are all boring, stale, tightly-controlled grindfests made by grinder-oriented mentalities for the same. In reality most of the bosses of the game should be running scared after noticing that you just wiped out the rest of their compatriots. Instead, they let you pound on them for 5 minutes.

Instead of a "boss" fight, why not have a large multi-target battle with enemies spawning in random locations and attacking flanks. Then after you get done with the battle, you go into the back room, find the big bad evil guy cowering in the corner, and finish him off quickly or complete the quest in an alternative fashion.

Maybe a bit like the end for Cabal for One and a few others (Chains of Flame, Offering of Blood, Trial by Fire, etc.)

I agree that a 5 minute beat down makes for a crappy boss fight. If a boss can't slaughter us all then they should have other options. I have always wanted to see a boss that, if the party was able to gang up on him, he would go down quick, but to counteract this he uses a hostile teleport to scatter the party across the dungeon, and then picks one party member at random to teleport to and try to kill, give him the heal spell, earthquake, storm of vengance, blade barrier, disjunction, ad a full array of defensive divine and arcane spells... Then add on bard songs. A boss that can not divide the party, will pretty much gaurauntee to die against it, unless it can kill the whole party quickly.

[Vormaerin]

A boss that can not divide the party, will pretty much gaurauntee to die against it, unless it can kill the whole party quickly.

Are you trying to make some kind of realism statement or actually trying to make something fun?

Splitting the party and having the boss kick the snot out of the scattered individuals is very unlikely to be "fun" in any real sense. At best, you have one guy having a blast and 11 wandering about with their thumb up their bums. Might as well have 11 "Hands" in the quest.

More likely, you'll have one guy kiting the boss to wherever its possible to meet up.


You talk about wanting more mobility and options for the bosses, but ignore that most of these options would also be available to the players. If Suulamades can teleport around to mess with people, why can't my bard use D-Door to do the same? Or any arcane use DDoor or Teleport?

Why am I artificially limited to one incompetent summons on my conjuror when I should be able to open Gates and/or repeatedly cast Monster Summoning IX to bring in multiple MSVIII creatures per cast.

[Saravis]

Sorjek is ok, I never found him to last that long to really make the battle feel epic, but I do agree I love dynamic boss battles and is one thing we really need more of in this game. Its funny really, Shroud is considered one of the best raids in the game, and I agree, but Harry is one of the worst bosses to fight in the game because there's minimal involvement expected from the player.
Abbot
Demon Queen
Lord of Blades
Those are the good boss fights because there's a lot more active involvement from the player. They have to pay attention constantly and adjust to changing circumstances, not just stand in place with auto-attack on, clicking clickies every now and then.

[Havok.cry]

Are you trying to make some kind of realism statement or actually trying to make something fun?

Splitting the party and having the boss kick the snot out of the scattered individuals is very unlikely to be "fun" in any real sense. At best, you have one guy having a blast and 11 wandering about with their thumb up their bums. Might as well have 11 "Hands" in the quest.

More likely, you'll have one guy kiting the boss to wherever its possible to meet up.


You talk about wanting more mobility and options for the bosses, but ignore that most of these options would also be available to the players. If Suulamades can teleport around to mess with people, why can't my bard use D-Door to do the same? Or any arcane use DDoor or Teleport?

Why am I artificially limited to one incompetent summons on my conjuror when I should be able to open Gates and/or repeatedly cast Monster Summoning IX to bring in multiple MSVIII creatures per cast.

I am trying to brainstorm ideas that the devs might use. My theoretical raid is one I would find fun, it would need more to it, like adds to try and slow the party from regrouping, and maybe other stuff, but I personally would enjoy it much more than the average ddo boss. I agree with you about mob vs player abilities, but that is a different battle, that I am not going to mix up with this one.

[Ranncore]

That settles it... EPIC TEMPEST SPINE!!!!!!!!!!

Tempest Spine on Heroic Elite is probably a more challenging raid and boss fight than [INSERT EPIC HARD RAID HERE].

Anyways, I think the CAD is a pretty fun boss. Varying abilities keep the players on their toes.

Cholthuz (spelled wrong?) is a pretty interesting boss fight in GoP.

[Dwarfo]

I'd have to say DQ is my favorite raid.

This raid keeps you moving, keeps you on the edge of your seat. The whole raid can go to **** in seconds. It's awesome mechanics make it fun and challenging like Lailat her teleporting away, blades coming in at you, efreetis attacking you, archers shooting you from above, and Lailat going into a rage at 20% health is great. I also like the whole idea of Tempest Spine.

I wonder what happened to those raid developers.

[Havok.cry]

Two things I would especially like to see stop is:
1: The Invincible Monologue. Okay devs, I understand you are artists and all, and you want us to appreciate every little detail of what you made, but without immersion the appreciation drops. Being forced to stand and wait for generic badguy A to finish his speech causes, for me, a total lack of immersion. Older bosses, and some that got voice over attention are able to multitask and actually fight and talk at the same time. Please make more bosses that do not have to have the universe stop to admire the sound of their voice. I have yet to ever be in a PnP game where anyone ever waited for someone to finish a monologue before kicking their heads in. Go watch The Incredibles for a good example of what should happen to villains who start monologing. There is a reason the you-killed-the-boss-before-his-speech-ended-so-you-can't-complete-the-dungeon bug occurs in every new dungeon for the last few updates.

2: The Invincible flyer/ceiling crawler/percher. Seriously, if we can see it, and it is still on the already started battlefield, we should be able to engage it. Harry retardedly strafing the empty ground should be able to be shot with ranged weapons and blasted with spells (if they have the range). Harry again, watching from the heights as we kill of more of his rather pathetic scouts.... we should be able to shoot him. Spinner of shadows should be hard to spot but not impossible... that whole fight irks me, she is sooooooooo easy to bring to a sliver, then she becomes invincible and jumps back up to the ceiling till the next time she and her microscopic memory think they can actually take us. We should be able to riddle her with bolts and arrows while she hides from us on the ceiling. Even the lord of blades does this... I mean come on, there is a reason ranged weapons exist, and it is pretty much for those situations. But bosses aren't the only ones guilty of it either: stupid ogre magi and bugbear assassins, there is a reason the see invisibility spell is in the game, but apparently everyone in the multiverse except for players has a superior form of invisibility that is not over come by that spell. This has irritated me since the first time I ever encountered it.

Please devs if you can not just make superior, non gimicy boss fights, try to avoid those two, I would consider it a personal favor, and sacrifice more kobolds on the turbine loot altar.

[Ausdoerrt]

My problem with abbot isn't the end fight, its that this being who is trying to ascend to godhood is defending himself with minigames. Thematically it just makes no sense at all. It would make sense if he was aligned with xoriat, but he isn't. seriously what kind of person gives you the means, tools, and opportunity to defeat him? Only boss with worse desicion making skills is imho stormreaver.

Well, he's not technically defending himself with minigames, not lore-wise and story-wise anyway. I think you're purposefully trying to twist it. He's got sarcophagi that grant him immortality placed in unreachable places filled with traps, as is common for such villains. Heck, doesn't Sorjek do something similar in both TS and SS? Of course, the devs could make them totally unreachable, but that wouldn't be *fun*, would it?

Besides, it seems like your OP was about boss fight mechanics, but now you're talking about the back-story. Mechanics-wise, it's an excellent fight, and he's still a challenge after you go through the minigames. Heck, I think I've wiped (or near-wiped) on the fight more that I have on the puzzles. Though I must mention that lore-wise many a player consider it one of the best stories in DDO as well.

I must also note that all the mechanics you suggest in the "imagine if" section would make for very disappointing and unfun gameplay.


Now, I do agree with what you say about temporarily invincible bosses, that's unfun. Except for the handful of fights where the story warrants such circumstances, it shouldn't happen.

[Havok.cry]

Well, he's not technically defending himself with minigames, not lore-wise and story-wise anyway. I think you're purposefully trying to twist it. He's got sarcophagi that grant him immortality placed in unreachable places filled with traps, as is common for such villains. Heck, doesn't Sorjek do something similar in both TS and SS? Of course, the devs could make them totally unreachable, but that wouldn't be *fun*, would it?

Besides, it seems like your OP was about boss fight mechanics, but now you're talking about the back-story. Mechanics-wise, it's an excellent fight, and he's still a challenge after you go through the minigames. Heck, I think I've wiped (or near-wiped) on the fight more that I have on the puzzles. Though I must mention that lore-wise many a player consider it one of the best stories in DDO as well.

I must also note that all the mechanics you suggest in the "imagine if" section would make for very disappointing and unfun gameplay.


Now, I do agree with what you say about temporarily invincible bosses, that's unfun. Except for the handful of fights where the story warrants such circumstances, it shouldn't happen.
Hmmm, I meant for my OP to be about both lore and mechanics. I think both are equally important. I may just be prejudiced against the abbot, so I'll refrain from talking about him after this. Dont want my negative opinions to be taken as outright lies.

The abbot dungeon os designed with several minigames that must be won in order to advance. The tools to complete each minigame are provided for the players. That right there is where it loses me. The abbot was dumb and it got him dead... er. Compare this to SoS. Sorjek, also completing a ritual of doom(tm), has set up 4 rooms, each with the minions needed for his ritual. Each room designed to play to the inhabitants strengths and give nothing up to the players. Sorjek's dungeons do not have the "hear are the tools to get by all my defenses and destroy me" mechanic. I hate that mechanic, and have no respect for any boss that includes it in thier dungeon. Including that feel into a dungeon is by my standards and opinion, poor design.

Much of the imagine if section was showing examples of poor boss design. All these bosses have these specials that are artificially limited, or otherwise break from any sense at all in thier use imho. This is what I mean by gimicy. They would be better bosses if they weren't designed with abilities that if a player had control of would lay waste to armies, but the boss cant use to effectively kill a party.

[Ovrad]

Only boss with worse desicion making skills is imho stormreaver.

As you seem to hate the stormreaver's tactics quite a bit let me just say that it's not that bad if you take the context into account. In the raid, he's not a bad guy but he's currently insane thanks to the madstone and clearly not thinking straight, so strategy is probably not his main concern. It's also possible that a part of him, conscious or subconscious, is actually aware of the situation and is trying to help you to stop him by influencing his choice of attacks.


...or it could be lazy design, whatever works for you. :)

[Cinos]

It's Yaulthoon. He has both amazing voice acting, GREAT mechanics that aren't either non-combat puzzles nor tank and spank, he's a blistering challenge at level on elite (and known to even kill level 25s occasionally) and is just overall intimidating. Nothing about him is annoying either, it's just a fair, smooth and hard fight.

[Havok.cry]

It's Yaulthoon. He has both amazing voice acting, GREAT mechanics that aren't either non-combat puzzles nor tank and spank, he's a blistering challenge at level on elite (and known to even kill level 25s occasionally) and is just overall intimidating. Nothing about him is annoying either, it's just a fair, smooth and hard fight.
I forgot about him, and can't argue, Yaulthoon is pretty awesome.

[Lehmu]

The abbot dungeon os designed with several minigames that must be won in order to advance. The tools to complete each minigame are provided for the players. That right there is where it loses me. The abbot was dumb and it got him dead... er. Compare this to SoS. Sorjek, also completing a ritual of doom(tm), has set up 4 rooms, each with the minions needed for his ritual. Each room designed to play to the inhabitants strengths and give nothing up to the players. Sorjek's dungeons do not have the "hear are the tools to get by all my defenses and destroy me" mechanic. I hate that mechanic, and have no respect for any boss that includes it in thier dungeon. Including that feel into a dungeon is by my standards and opinion, poor design.

SoS doesn't hand the players the tools needed to take down the ritual? Really?

First of all, Sor'Jek's room. One rune is conveniently lit until you've finished the quest. How convenient that Sor'Jek gave you a way to get into each area in the first place.

Earth room. Stone giant elders just happen to maintain the boss of the area's invincible root wall from non-secure locations.

Ice room. There is a lever that turns off the cold traps that don't damage frost monsters at all and the wind traps that frost giants don't care about at all due to their size (or lazy coding, take your pick). Actually, there's the levers down below and a master lever after the run. What kind of a boss puts a turn off switch to traps that the inhabitants of the dungeon don't even care about?

Fire room. The runes needed to unlock the barriers just happened to be placed outside the barrier, conveniently trapping the boss of the area in case the ritual is done.

Air room. Once again, the runes that turn off the air jets exist at all. Air elementals and cloud giants don't care about a little wind blowing on them. Why do these air jets have a turn off-mechanism in the first place, especially one clearly visible to everyone and not just trappers?

To me, that makes Sor'Jek lair appear more like an incompetent bond villain's lair than a well built base for his ritual.

[Vormaerin]

Its also a bit unfair to judge the Abbot's defenses on the basis of the Ascension raid.

You had to:

Defeat 12 mummies to be able to kill the three vampires maintaining the wards. Then you had to find and repair a broken seal guarded by his four top lieutenants, as well as convince said lieutenants to turn on each other so you can get past them.

Only then do you get to play with his arcade games, which are probably designed so that his minions can reach him at the appropriate time, not just to let the PCs through.

Then you have to actually face him down.


I wouldn't really call that a feeble defense array.

[Havok.cry]

Its also a bit unfair to judge the Abbot's defenses on the basis of the Ascension raid.

You had to:

Defeat 12 mummies to be able to kill the three vampires maintaining the wards. Then you had to find and repair a broken seal guarded by his four top lieutenants, as well as convince said lieutenants to turn on each other so you can get past them.

Only then do you get to play with his arcade games, which are probably designed so that his minions can reach him at the appropriate time, not just to let the PCs through.

Then you have to actually face him down.


I wouldn't really call that a feeble defense array.
Actually you don't have to fight any of necro 1-3 to get to abbot.

[Ranncore]

Actually you don't have to fight any of necro 1-3 to get to abbot.

That's a game mechanic made to make the raid more accessible to players. It was the only feasible option for an MMO. But it was part of the storyline, and in a campaign, that's where the story would start. So to judge the abbot fight including the merits of good storytelling the entire story should really be included. If you feel like you got past the Abbot's defenses too easy, and in the story, his defenses didn't make sense to you - well, that's because you missed three fourths of the story.

[Ranncore]

Also - I love the entire necro pack, the flagging mechanic for the raid, and the pre-raid :) What I DON'T like is that the raid loot is both BTC and super rare. Lots of shiseters sell loot in that raid.

[Vormaerin]

Actually you don't have to fight any of necro 1-3 to get to abbot.

As pointed out, that's a technicality due to game mechanics. Along the same level as pointing out your PC doesn't need to sleep or eat.

You were critiquing the the storyline of the boss. The storyline of that boss doesn't begin at Ascension. Or even at the Orchard. It begins with Necro1.

Even if you say "Well, I started at Necro IV", the fact remains that it just means *someone else* destroyed the other three layers of the Abbot's defense for you, storywise. He still had those defenses.

[themoonbreaker]

I am rather fond of Sor'jek myself. His fascinating back story is the subject of my third book.