Arcanes still seem pretty powerful to me...

[Qaliya]

First, this is an anecdote, and I'm not trying to claim it proves anything. Still, it really stuck out to me so I thought I'd post it.

As it happens, I've done Running with the Devils on elite three times in the last two days. First with a PUG group of mixed classes, second in a PUG of all arcanes, and third in a guild group.

The first and third runs went about as you'd expect from this now rather difficult quest. A few deaths in each, and most people in the quests thought that we did pretty well with "only" 6 or 8 deaths.

And then there was the run in the middle. Three sorcerors and three wizards, and we just blew through that thing. No deaths. I didn't even exhaust my blue bar between rests. And the final fight, nobody even bothered with "pulling" the red names, just blasted away.

I know that arcanes got nerfed a bit with the recent update, but they still seem pretty strong to me. :)

[AestorTheKnight]

First, this is an anecdote, and I'm not trying to claim it proves anything. Still, it really stuck out to me so I thought I'd post it.

As it happens, I've done Running with the Devils on elite three times in the last two days. First with a PUG group of mixed classes, second in a PUG of all arcanes, and third in a guild group.

The first and third runs went about as you'd expect from this now rather difficult quest. A few deaths in each, and most people in the quests thought that we did pretty well with "only" 6 or 8 deaths.

And then there was the run in the middle. Three sorcerors and three wizards, and we just blew through that thing. No deaths. I didn't even exhaust my blue bar between rests. And the final fight, nobody even bothered with "pulling" the red names, just blasted away.

I know that arcanes got nerfed a bit with the recent update, but they still seem pretty strong to me. :)

I did not notice any Nerf to Casters in the last update really.

Although I did hear there were supposed to be some Nerfs, Casters still seem just as Over Powered as ever.

That being said, Casters should be powerful. But...

... For me there is only one real game breaker and that's the Level 5 DoTs, Divine Punishment, Niacs Biting Cold, and Eladars Electric Surge (And now Creeping Cold). These 3 spells have completely broken Raid Quest dynamics and many other Monster encounters. Where previously a well equipped Melee Tank was required to make the encounter go smoothly, now Tanks are almost completely redundant. All you need is a Caster with a Leviks and 700 HP and a DoT.

DoTs have really broken End Game grouping dynamics if you ask me.

That being said, Casters are still Over Powered in more ways than that.

[Merrelll]

Seems only fair considering they have been nerfed thru the years of the game from time to time. They will eventually be nerfed again. Mark my words.

[TekkenDevil]

Why do you want casters nerfed, OP? If they can't be powerful, then what reason would there be to roll a caster?

A trash beater that runs off of an SP pool? No thanks, might as well roll a Monk then. Casters are hard to play, so when you play them right, they're stronger than Melees. That's it. That's balanced. Higher skill, higher potential.

Same thing goes for AC Melee builds. You don't see anyone complaining about good AC builds being over powered though.

[Qaliya]

Why do you want casters nerfed, OP? If they can't be powerful, then what reason would there be to roll a caster?


I didn't call on anything to be nerfed. In fact, I was originally going to say arcanes were "overpowered" in the thread title, but specifically didn't want to go there.

The better question for me is: what reason is there right now to roll anything that is NOT a caster?

I think the ideal is a situation where every class has its own unique flavor and capabilities, but that none are clearly more powerful than the others. That is not even remotely the case right now. When six arcanes can blow through a quest easily but six melees would probably wipe, that represents a problem that IMO should be addressed.

And sorry, I don't agree with "casters are hard to play", especially with 19 TR4 sorceror levels under my belt. Unless you think rotating among a few spellcasting keys is "hard". There's a bit of SP management skill required, but even that goes away in a group with multiple arcanes.

[Cinos]

As a sorcerer I found barbarian much harder to play than sorcerer. Without all the buffs and range I found myself having to pick my targets carefully and constantly stay on my toes.

The actual tradeoff is that you're only more powerful as long as you have SP, then you're the worst class in the game.

[teh_meh]

Finally got to try the new Wail last life (have been tied up with FvS lives since the supposed nerf)

Technically yes, it was nerfed in the sense that it only kills 6 mobs max now (ticks 3 times, 2 kills max per tick). But in 2 other ways it's been buffed:

1. because it now ticks, it's active longer...giving you time to bring mobs in range...which is helpful with mob pew pews who don't just zerg straight to you

2. mobs that save vs the insta-kill on the first tick often take an energy drain instead, making it much more likely that subsequent 'ticks' finish them off

Overall, seems like the spell comes out ahead with a small buff imo. That being said, even with maxed out fire enhancements, I was thinking how Wall of Fire is now a shadow of its former self. Agree it was stupid op for the longest time and they certainly have toned it down considerably.

[Ertay]

... For me there is only one real game breaker and that's the Level 5 DoTs, Divine Punishment, Niacs Biting Cold, and Eladars Electric Surge (And now Creeping Cold). These 3 spells have completely broken Raid Quest dynamics and many other Monster encounters. Where previously a well equipped Melee Tank was required to make the encounter go smoothly, now Tanks are almost completely redundant. All you need is a Caster with a Leviks and 700 HP and a DoT.


Your facts are off.

1.) Dots (even double dots) don't do more dps then a reasonably well built melee. Casters can pump out more dps on a shorter time frame, but will burn a lot more sp that way.

2.) Leviks is worthless now.

3.) "A caster with 700hp and a leviks" won't hold aggro.

[DeafeningWhisper]

The better question for me is: what reason is there right now to roll anything that is NOT a caster?

I don't know, fun? You do know it's a game right? People play other things then what is the most absolutely uber powerful class/race combos out there...


I think the ideal is a situation where every class has its own unique flavor and capabilities, but that none are clearly more powerful than the others. That is not even remotely the case right now. When six arcanes can blow through a quest easily but six melees would probably wipe, that represents a problem that IMO should be addressed.

I don't agree, if every class is as strong as every other class you end up with Gauntlet. Same damage/hps for everyone but with different sources of damage, that's incredibly fun for an arcade game, but an MMO? Fail.

I never understood the logic of people wanting melees to be as powerful as casters, caster: "I wield the power to manipulate the essence of the Universe thanks to years of studying the arcane arts or devoting my life to a deity", melee "I swing a piece of metal, or 2 if TWF, REALLY hard". Keep in mind I write really hard and not with accuracy because a melee uses str to hit, which lacks a bit of logic on it's own but nvm.

Basically people seem to want a knife to be as powerful as a pistol, both have their uses and advantages.

A gun hits hard, hits from range, requires little skill to use but demands a lot of upkeep (don't want it jam/blow up now do we?), has limited ammo and is relatively fragile.

On the other hand a knife requires little upkeep, hits as hard as the person wielding it, requires a lot of skill but has no ammo, never jams and is relatively sturdy.


And sorry, I don't agree with "casters are hard to play", especially with 19 TR4 sorceror levels under my belt. Unless you think rotating among a few spellcasting keys is "hard". There's a bit of SP management skill required, but even that goes away in a group with multiple arcanes.

Maybe they are easy if you play WF, my human sorc actually needs to keep moving to survive fights, pick the right targets, allow the melees to grab initial aggro and keep displacement going.

Yeah, taking in six guys with ranged AoEs makes a quest easier sure, but why shouldn't it be that way? There is an easy fix to that if it bothers you, don't run in a group like that.

[Loriac]

Finally got to try the new Wail last life (have been tied up with FvS lives since the supposed nerf)

Technically yes, it was nerfed in the sense that it only kills 6 mobs max now (ticks 3 times, 2 kills max per tick). But in 2 other ways it's been buffed:

1. because it now ticks, it's active longer...giving you time to bring mobs in range...which is helpful with mob pew pews who don't just zerg straight to you

2. mobs that save vs the insta-kill on the first tick often take an energy drain instead, making it much more likely that subsequent 'ticks' finish them off

Overall, seems like the spell comes out ahead with a small buff imo. That being said, even with maxed out fire enhancements, I was thinking how Wall of Fire is now a shadow of its former self. Agree it was stupid op for the longest time and they certainly have toned it down considerably.


Its not a buff, not to anyone who prepares the battleground first. Old Wail, if you thought you may have a problem with mob DCs, you'd set up a circle of death to debuff before casting wail. You'd also gather lots of mobs together to hit more than 6.

The new wail is nowhere near as good; sure, against 2-4 mobs which are saving against your DCs it may be situationally better than the old one, but against a crowd of trash you now have no option but to web / disco ball and then aoe nuke.

This is not playing to wizard strengths at all, and is a massive nerf. You may as well roll a sorc these days, as Turbine just doesn't seem to be able to handle the complaints from melee about instadeath spells and instead periodically nerfs arcanes (wizards in particular) to appease them.

[DeafeningWhisper]

This is not playing to wizard strengths at all, and is a massive nerf. You may as well roll a sorc these days, as Turbine just doesn't seem to be able to handle the complaints from melee about instadeath spells and instead periodically nerfs arcanes (wizards in particular) to appease them.

Actually as it was noted in another thread Turbine as brought more balance to the classes with the epic destinies, hopefully that will calm down the "nerf everything but the class I play and do it now!" crowd.

[Qaliya]

I don't know, fun? You do know it's a game right? People play other things then what is the most absolutely uber powerful class/race combos out there...


I know that -- I'm one of them. But I was responding to a question about character power.



I don't agree, if every class is as strong as every other class you end up with Gauntlet. Same damage/hps for everyone but with different sources of damage, that's incredibly fun for an arcade game, but an MMO? Fail.


Not familiar with Gauntlet.

I'm not saying same damage/HP for everyone just with different sources. I'm okay with different roles, and classes having different strengths and weaknesses.

But right now some classes have far more strengths and far fewer weaknesses than others. A group of arcanes, especially if one has a rogue splash, basically needs nothing else. How is that balanced?



Basically people seem to want a knife to be as powerful as a pistol, both have their uses and advantages.


As you said, this is a game. You're trying to interject realism into a discussion of spells. :)



Yeah, taking in six guys with ranged AoEs makes a quest easier sure, but why shouldn't it be that way? There is an easy fix to that if it bothers you, don't run in a group like that.

That's a pretty silly response. The point here wasn't that the group bothered me -- it didn't. The point is that it underscored to me just how unbalanced classes really are.

The ultimate balancer for casters is supposed to be mana restrictions. That's how it works in P&P. But in DDO, that restriction is removed by the existence of mana pots (and Echoes to a lesser extent). Those are the real ultimate source of the problem.

PS I'm amazed at how much damage I can do with my sorc using Echoes. Especially since the last update, when it got a bit better.

[oweieie]

It was melee that got the nerf.

A light monk with a good quivering palm, stunning fist, dismissing strike, enlightened vestments and tharak wraps used to blow through that far better than any arcane could possibly dream of doing. Next best was a supreme cleave barbarian with Terror.

Then they nerfed Tharak Wraps and Terror, and for good measure, Supreme Cleave.

The reality is that most melee are so completely unprepared for the quest it's laughable. 95% of the monks I've run it with didn't stun a **** thing (eladrin have really bad saves) let alone even try to quivering palm anything and forget about having banishing wraps which can be bought off the AH for next to nothing. Rogues without some way to get sneak attacks or at a minimum some sort of wounding. Barbarians with such poor DPS they can't beat a single mob's healing. Paladins. Etc.

[Inferno346]

The reality is that most melee are so completely unprepared for the quest it's laughable. 95% of the monks I've run it with didn't stun a **** thing (eladrin have really bad saves) let alone even try to quivering palm anything and forget about having banishing wraps which can be bought off the AH for next to nothing. Rogues without some way to get sneak attacks or at a minimum some sort of wounding. Barbarians with such poor DPS they can't beat a single mob's healing. Paladins. Etc.

Haha, I love how the other melee classes you mention get detailed reasons why they aren't prepared, and then paladins are just unprepared due to being paladins.

[dragons1ayer74]

I also think that there is a problem and compounded in the worst ways in Elites and Epics (any difficulty worse in highest difficulties) IMO this is what needs to happen:

Option 1
1. Moderate Spell Damage Nerf - All offensive spell power is droped by 40% and casters now use D&D dice instead of DDO dice a d6 is a d6 instead of a d3+3.
2. Moderate Monster HP Nerf - All non red-named monsters HPs are reduced by 50% across all difficulties of the game.
3. No change to Melee

or

Option 2
Give melees real options to clean trash (pick any number lited below)
1. Buff Vorpal or Vorpal like effects so a 20 kills junk at any level (perhaps done with enhacements)
2. Give melee enhancment options to increase DPS (ie: Slashing mastery 2AP per level increase all damage output via a slashing weapon by 30% per slashing mastery rank Requires: Improved Critical can be taken 3 times -- just one example I can easily think up many more)
3. Buff existing feats to be more in line with DDO (ie: Whirl Wind Attack: Faster Cool Down hit every enemy with a fireball like radius )

[DeafeningWhisper]

The ultimate balancer for casters is supposed to be mana restrictions. That's how it works in P&P. But in DDO, that restriction is removed by the existence of mana pots (and Echoes to a lesser extent). Those are the real ultimate source of the problem.

PS I'm amazed at how much damage I can do with my sorc using Echoes. Especially since the last update, when it got a bit better.

God how baddly I agree to this... I would kill for casters to work with a restricted number of spells per rest that could only be regained at a chance with pots/Con Op/Torc and so on and do away with the blue bar all together...

Hell I would settle for metamagics to work like they do in DnD, costing higher spell slots and limiting the number of metas to one per spell would be a "nerf" I would sign every day, twice on Sunday!


WF should never have been introduced to the game, or the repair spells, to me arcanes whould never be THAT tough.


That been said I want casters to stay as is, not because I like been "OP" but because if there is even a tiny bit of power lost we go back to been buff-bots and hold-bots and "sorry we already have an arcane go away pls" in raids(which is still the norm in some raids). The DoTs are in large part why we even get into raids now, if they take those away we lose our very sp expensive boss beaters and go back to gimps if wizards or heal bots if divines.

[Fefnir_2011]

I feel very sad whenever I see a monk clear rooms with Everything is Nothing. It's kind of like the devs told arcanes "No, you can't play with that toy, it's dangerous!" and then promptly handed it to the monks. The new Wail is so depressing because groups of mobs larger than 10 are difficult to clear out efficiently now, meaning that monks, sorcerers, favored souls, clonks/clerics, and even well-geared melees with cleave can clean up trash faster than I can, and while spending less SP.

That said, people need to quit being so bloodthirsty about nerfing casters. The caster nerf already happened. Let's focus on getting buffs for melees.

[teh_meh]

Its not a buff, not to anyone who prepares the battleground first. Old Wail, if you thought you may have a problem with mob DCs, you'd set up a circle of death to debuff before casting wail. You'd also gather lots of mobs together to hit more than 6.

This is a soloers perspective and trust me, I solo a ton. The new wail mechanic is much more complimentary to group play. Doing so does not make it a nerf...just a nerf to soloers. I agree its a nerf to soloers


This is not playing to wizard strengths at all, and is a massive nerf.

Respectfully disagree. The wizard's core strength is flexibiliby/ability to deal with any situation. It's only a massive nerf to zerging palemasters and there's probably not a lot of sympathy for those types anyways.

[teh_meh]

... For me there is only one real game breaker and that's the Level 5 DoTs, Divine Punishment, Niacs Biting Cold, and Eladars Electric Surge (And now Creeping Cold). These 3 spells have completely broken Raid Quest dynamics and many other Monster encounters. Where previously a well equipped Melee Tank was required to make the encounter go smoothly, now Tanks are almost completely redundant. All you need is a Caster with a Leviks and 700 HP and a DoT.


As much as I love DoTs, I have to agree they have been a major game changer. Before DoTs/savant Pre's, sorcs just weren't being played. They were shelved cause they were so bad.

Take away DoTs and I doubt the savant pre alone is enough to keep people from shelving their sorcs again. Take away DoTs and people will still play their Favored Souls and wizards.

Sorcs will posture that they don't need their DoTs but that's just posturing. Nerf the DoT and these forums will burn down with rage.

[Qaliya]

I'm guessing things change at the epic levels when mobs have more HP, but so far I've been surprised that I hardly ever use my DoTs... I find them too slow compared to direct damage.

Also amused to find that the Icy Prison SLA at level 18 hardly ever gets used, because 500 damage is less than I do with my regular spells. :)

[Raithe]

Not familiar with Gauntlet.


It was a game that had fairly balanced classes: Elf was ranged with speed, Valkyrie was better at defense, Warrior was better at melee, and Wizard was ranged with power. It was 2D, but basically just like DDO (with less linear maps). The weapons available for pickup at the beginning of Shroud are associated to these four characters, and the beginning phase of Shroud is supposed to mimic Gauntlet to some extent. To me DDO is nothing but a video game, and would actually be more fun if it mimic'd Gauntlet more often.



The ultimate balancer for casters is supposed to be mana restrictions. That's how it works in P&P. But in DDO, that restriction is removed by the existence of mana pots (and Echoes to a lesser extent). Those are the real ultimate source of the problem.


Ding - Ding - Ding. We have a winner. This is the real problem with casters, even DoTs pale in comparison as a problem.

And regarding teh_meh's comment about no one would play a sorc, well if sp was a major concern they would.

[teh_meh]

well if sp was a major concern they would.

this is why I value pots as currency. I've never understood using LDS or FRDS as a currency. major mnemonics and medium eberrons are where it's at for me.

cause a wizard who doesn't have to care about SP is now a superior version of a sorc in every meaningful way (I admit sorcs are still kings of taking screenshots of critting with a polar ray against a fire elemental tho)

[Cinos]

this is why I value pots as currency. I've never understood using LDS or FRDS as a currency. major mnemonics and medium eberrons are where it's at for me.

cause a wizard who doesn't have to care about SP is now a superior version of a sorc in every meaningful way (I admit sorcs are still kings of taking screenshots of critting with a polar ray against a fire elemental tho)

I'd rather say that a sorcerer who doesn't have to worry about SP is a superior wizard. Their spells will still hit a lot harder and faster.

[Qhualor]

[QUOTE=Qaliya;4635916]


The ultimate balancer for casters is supposed to be mana restrictions. That's how it works in P&P. But in DDO, that restriction is removed by the existence of mana pots (and Echoes to a lesser extent). Those are the real ultimate source of the problem.

if there ever was going to be a "nerf" to casters, thats hitting the nail on the head.

i also believe spells should be limited to how many uses per rest, much like boosts. i dont think all, but the powerful ones should.

of course, if this was to ever happen, which i seriously doubt, the same would have to apply to all classes. people like their spells and like being able to use them as much as they want, until their mana dries up, but with EoP, its almost never ending.

ive seen some posts from people who complain about mobs who cast spells over and over and never seem to stop or run out of mana. cant have your cake and eat it too.

[oweieie]

PS I'm amazed at how much damage I can do with my sorc using Echoes. Especially since the last update, when it got a bit better.

The amount of damage you can do with echoes is pathetic. It is a tiny fraction of the damage a melee puts out, and here people are complaining melee DPS is low.


Hell I would settle for metamagics to work like they do in DnD, costing higher spell slots and limiting the number of metas to one per spell would be a "nerf" I would sign every day, twice on Sunday!

Metamagic isn't limited to 1 per spell in PnP. If metamagic was like PnP we'd have the hugely unbalanced metamagic rods, Divine Metamagic, Nightsticks, Twinspell etc. etc. Madness!


I feel very sad whenever I see a monk clear rooms with Everything is Nothing. It's kind of like the devs told arcanes "No, you can't play with that toy, it's dangerous!" and then promptly handed it to the monks. The new Wail is so depressing because groups of mobs larger than 10 are difficult to clear out efficiently now, meaning that monks, sorcerers, favored souls, clonks/clerics, and even well-geared melees with cleave can clean up trash faster than I can, and while spending less SP.

Mass Hold Monster > Everything is Nothing. When hold lands, everything is effectively dead, it's just a timesink. And even the nerfed wail still beats the difficult to use and massive cooldown of EiN. If you can't outkill a monk with instakills on a wizard, you seriously seriously seriously are playing the wrong class and should stick with barbarian and smash stuff with your forehead.


This is a soloers perspective and trust me, I solo a ton. The new wail mechanic is much more complimentary to group play. Doing so does not make it a nerf...just a nerf to soloers. I agree its a nerf to soloers

Yes, it's great in that every cast instead of once you can now have melee run up to THREE separate mobs and have them instakilled on them after triggering their stunning blow or cleave ! SO much better for group play! Three times the melee frustration! Perfect!

[teh_meh]

I'd rather say that a sorcerer who doesn't have to worry about SP is a superior wizard. Their spells will still hit a lot harder and faster.

sorcs already don't have have to worry about SP so I'm not sure where you are going here. being an arcane is SO much more than spamming EVO spells, most of which have annoying reflex saves. a sorc has no past life options for getting what a wizard can achieve, whereas, the critical sorc advantages can be claimed by a wizard with sorc past lives and pots.

I've watched sorcs try to necro and enchant things at end-end game and it's not pretty uless they are exceptionally geared (I suspect there's a lot of equipment hot-swapping going on).

While I haven't tried it yet (I'm dying to) I've heard an evo-spec'd wiz arch mage rocking Sharadi is the current king of shock and awe in this game.

[teh_meh]

Yes, it's great in that every cast instead of once you can now have melee run up to THREE separate mobs and have them instakilled on them after triggering their stunning blow or cleave ! SO much better for group play! Three times the melee frustration! Perfect!

Sarcasm, awesome.

Was actually thinking melee should engage the oncoming melee mobs while the arcane hits Wail and does a trip around the periphery to pick off the casters and pew pews.

[Quetzacoala]

The better question for me is: what reason is there right now to roll anything that is NOT a caster?

Not every reason has to revolve around creating the best possible character; personal enjoyment is still a huge reason to play something other than a caster, a reason that is arguably more important than any other reason.

As long as you enjoy playing a class, than that is reason enough to play it in my opinion.

[Cinos]

sorcs already don't have have to worry about SP so I'm not sure where you are going here. being an arcane is SO much more than spamming EVO spells, most of which have annoying reflex saves. a sorc has no past life options for getting what a wizard can achieve, whereas, the critical sorc advantages can be claimed by a wizard with sorc past lives and pots.

I've watched sorcs try to necro and enchant things at end-end game and it's not pretty uless they are exceptionally geared (I suspect there's a lot of equipment hot-swapping going on).

While I haven't tried it yet (I'm dying to) I've heard an evo-spec'd wiz arch mage rocking Sharadi is the current king of shock and awe in this game.

No, they can't at all. Sorcerers have much faster cast speed, shorter cooldowns, and a savant will be casting his native element at higher caster levels than a wizard ever can. This means, in short, bigger booms. They can also curse enemies for 15% more damage with that element. Polar Ray is a good example here, the only limiting factor is the spell point cost when quickened, empowered and maximized. A sorc trying to wail or charm at endgame is doing it wrong.

I'd say wizards are better against trash but sorcs against bosses due to single target damage, pretty much.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Not every reason has to revolve around creating the best possible character; personal enjoyment is still a huge reason to play something other than a caster, a reason that is arguably more important than any other reason.

As long as you enjoy playing a class, than that is reason enough to play it in my opinion.

I agree with the feathered marsupial.

[Qaliya]

I remember one time shortly after I capped my first character. Went in to a DA epic and the party was marginal, but the wizard leading the party didn't think it would be a problem.

His plan was to simply put up and keep up dancing balls on every portal and in the center of the room, and plaster the whole place with AoE spells to kill stuff.

When people asked how he could do that with his modest blue bar, he linked a stack of 100 store major mnemonic potions, and proudly told us he was happy to use all of them in this one quest if necessary.

[teh_meh]

I'd say wizards are better against trash but sorcs against bosses due to single target damage, pretty much.

If evo-spec'd Archmage Sharadi Champion does what I'm hearing, they own this category as well now. but not sure.

I've heard the Draconic Sorc breath is obscene damage, but the sharadi procs on a wiz cycling through his many different missle spells (magic, chain, force, meteor storm etc) + his missle SLA's is just pure evil.

[Fefnir_2011]

Mass Hold Monster > Everything is Nothing. When hold lands, everything is effectively dead, it's just a timesink. And even the nerfed wail still beats the difficult to use and massive cooldown of EiN. If you can't outkill a monk with instakills on a wizard, you seriously seriously seriously are playing the wrong class and should stick with barbarian and smash stuff with your forehead.

Thanks for insinuating that I'm a bad player. I'm not a holdbot, if I wanted to do that I'd TR to an archmage so i can hide behind the party buffing and holding, content in the knowledge that I made a difference somehow. I'm a Pale Master, a student of the Necromantic arts, and I wholeheartedly feel I should be able to use my power to control life and death over whole armies, not "2 enemies every 2 seconds for 6 seconds".

And Re: EiN, if it had the same monster cap as Implosion or Wail I wouldn't have mentioned it. But the crux of the matter is, developers explicitly said:



Instant death effects are a powerful tool that are difficult to strike perfect balance with. We've wavered over time from completely unusable (old Epic blanket Death Wards) to excessively strong (the current live situation). When they're completely unusable, that's a bad thing because it decreases the number of options you have to deal with encounters. When they're too strong, they likewise decrease the number of viable options that exist, and can dramatically reduce the enjoyment of other characters in your party.

That same development team turned around and created Everything is Nothing.



Perfect Peace counter increments each time you use Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, Lily petal, Orchid blossom, Drifting Lotus or A Scattering of Petals. When Perfect Peace counter reaches 25, gain the ability to use Everything is Nothing. On activation Enemies in a large radius from you must make a saving throw (DC 20 + character level +1/2 wis mod) or be erased from multiverse. If they succeed at saving throw they are paralyzed for 6 seconds. After 6 seconds the enemies take 1000 damage (fortitude for half). Bosses take damage immediately.


It either is balanced or it isn't, and I could have taken my spoonful of nerf medicine on this matter if it weren't for this kind of inconsistency. It smacks of taking one classes' toys and giving it to another just for the sake of appeasing those who thought it wasn't fair. And if you can't understand why EiN is just as powerful as the old WotB, you should look closer.

[Cinos]

I remember one time shortly after I capped my first character. Went in to a DA epic and the party was marginal, but the wizard leading the party didn't think it would be a problem.

His plan was to simply put up and keep up dancing balls on every portal and in the center of the room, and plaster the whole place with AoE spells to kill stuff.

When people asked how he could do that with his modest blue bar, he linked a stack of 100 store major mnemonic potions, and proudly told us he was happy to use all of them in this one quest if necessary.

See, I'm totally against store bought potions, but I like being able to find and receive the plain ones as rewards. They provide the extra kick needed when the boss is almost dead along with the entire party and you manage to land that last polar ray it takes.

Makes the game more exciting than not. They just shouldn't be buyable in infinite amounts for real cash.

[AtomicMew]

If evo-spec'd Archmage Sharadi Champion does what I'm hearing, they own this category as well now. but not sure.

I've heard the Draconic Sorc breath is obscene damage, but the sharadi procs on a wiz cycling through his many different missle spells (magic, chain, force, meteor storm etc) + his missle SLA's is just pure evil.

They don't. It's highly overrated. Procs are so sporadic that even force missiles isn't guaranteed to get you a proc. Chain missiles is ****, because it only hits the main target once. Even with full procs, you're probably better off throwing a polar ray instead. There's no way that a wizard/shiradi would do more DPS than a wizard/draconic incarnation, not even considering the caster level difference.

[Therrias]

1.) Dots (even double dots) don't do more dps then a reasonably well built melee. Casters can pump out more dps on a shorter time frame, but will burn a lot more sp that way.

Not really.

Just about any caster can pull aggro off of a well built melee.

On MY sorcerer, it seemed the only way to not pull aggro was to pike until the boss was below %50 hp.

[Lilbadass]

Yet another post about overpowered casters
Few months ahead we will get a huge caster nerf because of these threads ,
I for one play a caster and a melee , if the caser got nerfd I wouldn't play it as much
I don't use pots very often and am limmited by sp , I can fod most "trash" mobs but can aout the same amount of dmg as my mele toon

Threads like this just push ddo into everything being nefed and below par
Resulting in less casters to run with
But nerfing terror for melles did suck but the can still pump out dmg and a constant rate without limits of sp

[oweieie]

It either is balanced or it isn't, and I could have taken my spoonful of nerf medicine on this matter if it weren't for this kind of inconsistency. It smacks of taking one classes' toys and giving it to another just for the sake of appeasing those who thought it wasn't fair. And if you can't understand why EiN is just as powerful as the old WotB, you should look closer.

I understand perfectly well, you, on the other hand, are pretty much in the dark.

If wail got changed so that it would hit unlimited targets but you couldn't use it unless you were a magister and took a tier 6 ability, and it was on a 3 minute timer that requires 25 casts of symbol of death, symbol of stunning, symbol of persuasion, symbol of pain and symbol of weakness FIRST (i.e. any time you step in a quest, gotta do that garbage before you can even use it), know what that would be called? A MASSIVE nerf.

But yeah, keep up the whining. Maybe you'll get it nerfed too. But know what is right after that? Web, mass hold, mass charm, wall of fire, fireball, and everything else wizards get that hit unlimited targets will get nerfed down to 4 too.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Maybe you'll get it nerfed too.

EiN is gonna get the nerf stick sooner or later, probably sooner seen how it works on some red names at the moment, yeah not a fan of Fight Club rules here. :)

[Hokiewa]

See, I'm totally against store bought potions, but I like being able to find and receive the plain ones as rewards. They provide the extra kick needed when the boss is almost dead along with the entire party and you manage to land that last polar ray it takes.

Makes the game more exciting than not. They just shouldn't be buyable in infinite amounts for real cash.

This arguement never makes sense. For one, store bought pots are one of the best sellers, hence in theory funding the game moreso (different discussion for a different thread). For another, why do people constantly express so much care about how others play the game? If you want to run with people that don't use the store, then find them, they are out there. If somebody wants to blow $20 bucks on a stack of superior pots, why do you care? Obviously, if someone is using 20-100 pots in a quest/raid, you most likely won't group with them again.....or maybe you would ;)

I've probably collected over 3000 major pots (which is probably low compared to hard core players) during my time in the game. If I gulp down 20-100 during a quest/raid, what's the difference? Granted, I generally sell them, but the point stands. There is zero difference btw a store bought pot and a "found" pot, ZERO.

[teh_meh]

They don't. It's highly overrated. Procs are so sporadic that even force missiles isn't guaranteed to get you a proc. Chain missiles is ****, because it only hits the main target once. Even with full procs, you're probably better off throwing a polar ray instead. There's no way that a wizard/shiradi would do more DPS than a wizard/draconic incarnation, not even considering the caster level difference.

do you have direct experience with it? cause chain missle is 10 missles and 10 impacts and virtually assures a proc according to the math i've seen.

i haven't tried it but what you're saying here contradicts many other reports i've seen/read

[Loriac]

This is a soloers perspective and trust me, I solo a ton. The new wail mechanic is much more complimentary to group play. Doing so does not make it a nerf...just a nerf to soloers. I agree its a nerf to soloers



Respectfully disagree. The wizard's core strength is flexibiliby/ability to deal with any situation. It's only a massive nerf to zerging palemasters and there's probably not a lot of sympathy for those types anyways.

Pure and utter nonsense.

The new wail mechanic basically makes it a very slightly upgraded version of FoD, on a one minute timer. Normally you'd hit 2-3 mobs with it; if you try to get the full 6 every time, you put yourself in harms way in a crowd of mobs whilst its ticking. This is the major difference to the old wail. If by its more complementary to group play you mean melee cries less about 'their' kills being stolen, then sure. But by any measure it contributes less to overall group power now than before.

My wizard is archmage spec'd, with schools of necromancy and conjuration. If instakill is not possible, or nerfed like wail, my main contribution in a group setting switches from killing mobs to basically webbing them for melee along with various buffs. The wizard dps options are significantly worse than for sorcs due to casting speed, lower sp pool, and greater requirement for flexibility across elements meaning any particular one is not going to have as many ap invested in it. With the way Turbine keeps nerfing instakill, you have to specialise in it more and more, but at the same time you still hit mobs that have various wards that are impossible to remove (when MD, a disjuntion effect in PnP which can strip artifacts of their power simply fizzles on orange named in L21+ quests, you know somethings not right).

So I took a decision a while back: whilst I enjoy playing wizards more than any other class in DnD games for the tactical considerations involved, I refuse to play that class in an MMO where the developers are hellbent on accommodating the whining of poorly built melee players who can't stand for other classes to have kill options. So, now when I play arcane, its sorc, but usually I just play a different class entirely. Its the only rational decision because of the propensity to nerf that exists.

[deahamlet]

Not really.

Just about any caster can pull aggro off of a well built melee.

On MY sorcerer, it seemed the only way to not pull aggro was to pike until the boss was below %50 hp.

I wear and took enhancements to reduce threat. I am also careful to judge when and how I use my spells.

BUT I only ever have to concern myself with those things in pugs and I have yet to stop DPS completely (aka pike)... and have not pulled aggro on my sorcerer.
In guild runs I can remove all that -threat gear and go dumping my mana on that boss like a ****** and I still won't pull aggro. Know why? Our tanks know how to tank. High DPS, high intim, high threat, whatever it takes.

Bosses that reset aggro every 30 seconds? Yeah, don't use DOTs cause pretty much anyone that keeps hitting them steals aggro, DUH. Continuous boss fights? Not a chance in hell to pull aggro.

Play with better players or get the gear and enhancements and playstyle down.
No need to pike on a sorcerer ever.

I found wizards to be more of an issue than sorcerers as a lot of them cycle through all 3 DOTs like maniacs and no threat reduction and pull aggro in pugs.

[teh_meh]

Pure and utter nonsense.

The new wail mechanic basically makes it a very slightly upgraded version of FoD, on a one minute timer. Normally you'd hit 2-3 mobs with it; if you try to get the full 6 every time, you put yourself in harms way in a crowd of mobs whilst its ticking. This is the major difference to the old wail. If by its more complementary to group play you mean melee cries less about 'their' kills being stolen, then sure. But by any measure it contributes less to overall group power now than before.

My wizard is archmage spec'd, with schools of necromancy and conjuration. If instakill is not possible, or nerfed like wail, my main contribution in a group setting switches from killing mobs to basically webbing them for melee along with various buffs. The wizard dps options are significantly worse than for sorcs due to casting speed, lower sp pool, and greater requirement for flexibility across elements meaning any particular one is not going to have as many ap invested in it. With the way Turbine keeps nerfing instakill, you have to specialise in it more and more, but at the same time you still hit mobs that have various wards that are impossible to remove (when MD, a disjuntion effect in PnP which can strip artifacts of their power simply fizzles on orange named in L21+ quests, you know somethings not right).

So I took a decision a while back: whilst I enjoy playing wizards more than any other class in DnD games for the tactical considerations involved, I refuse to play that class in an MMO where the developers are hellbent on accommodating the whining of poorly built melee players who can't stand for other classes to have kill options. So, now when I play arcane, its sorc, but usually I just play a different class entirely. Its the only rational decision because of the propensity to nerf that exists.

So much here I disagree with I just leave it at that.

But I'll try to find the post post I saw a couple of days ago where some PM was bragging about a 2000 negative energy crit on a failed finger.

These so-called nerfs people are talking about are myths and overly emotional responses to devs changing their precious-es. Things have changed but some of those changes include nice buffs that people are choosing not to talk about because it's not as dramatic.

[Cinos]

This arguement never makes sense. For one, store bought pots are one of the best sellers, hence in theory funding the game moreso (different discussion for a different thread). For another, why do people constantly express so much care about how others play the game? If you want to run with people that don't use the store, then find them, they are out there. If somebody wants to blow $20 bucks on a stack of superior pots, why do you care? Obviously, if someone is using 20-100 pots in a quest/raid, you most likely won't group with them again.....or maybe you would ;)

I've probably collected over 3000 major pots (which is probably low compared to hard core players) during my time in the game. If I gulp down 20-100 during a quest/raid, what's the difference? Granted, I generally sell them, but the point stands. There is zero difference btw a store bought pot and a "found" pot, ZERO.

Well, ideally, your real world finances should not make a game easier for you. Not a multiplayer game, anyway. Would you not be bothered if they simply sold an unlimited spell point bar for a hundred dollars or so?

[Emili]

This be kind of a silly topic, Every caster out there got buffed up from the update... the spell power system seen to that, the ed's even moreso... Outside of the change to wail - which all insta-button-aoe-killa-ma-bob things took a hit - All caster spells and sp management became a ton easier.

I only needed to ask myself a few questions to address this. After u14 are my bards more powerful? - answer Yes, are my divine more powerful? - answer YEs, Is my arcane more power now? - answer YES.

The only place a caster struggles at all with SP bars and such be Epic Elite citw (by which they actually should, in fact it would be NICE if more quests few into this scope)... Short and simple, If you feel you're caster got nerf'd well then you're clinging to old gear/build and not moving into the new or are completely confused on how to design and play a casting character.

[Raithe]

For another, why do people constantly express so much care about how others play the game?

Let me give you a very quick example from this morning. I've been running Tor on some of my high levels since I realized that the NEW armors are quite a bit different than the OLD ones (I'm actually going to keep both). The first time I ran it on my level 25 bard, and it was a cakewalk, but with me and everyone else doing roughly the same amount of damage and while I topped the kill count on the first run (running with level 18s or so), I didn't on the second (running with a level 24 monk).

This morning, however, I decide to use my sorc (lvl 25). At first I tried to hold back quite a bit, but it quickly became apparent that if I did that, the entire kill count would go to an artificer and his dog. So I switched gears. The final kill count was something like me 48, artificer 36, and everyone else like 18 - and I wasn't even trying, at all. It is like that in high level content as well, I can just do a better job of keeping things even because the mobs have more durability.

Do you really think that the people who got 1 or 2 kills were having fun that run? Really?



In guild runs I can remove all that -threat gear and go dumping my mana on that boss like a ****** and I still won't pull aggro. Know why? Our tanks know how to tank. High DPS, high intim, high threat, whatever it takes.


In all-caster parties, I've never seen a reason to hold aggro. If everyone is doing roughly equivalent damage at range and you can run away at will (and self-heal), who cares who has aggro?

Even if you get one-shot by the boss and die, somebody will just raise you unless the raid mechanics prevent it. Then you might have a reason for a "tank."

[deahamlet]

Pure and utter nonsense.

The new wail mechanic basically makes it a very slightly upgraded version of FoD, on a one minute timer. Normally you'd hit 2-3 mobs with it; if you try to get the full 6 every time, you put yourself in harms way in a crowd of mobs whilst its ticking. This is the major difference to the old wail. If by its more complementary to group play you mean melee cries less about 'their' kills being stolen, then sure. But by any measure it contributes less to overall group power now than before.

My wizard is archmage spec'd, with schools of necromancy and conjuration. If instakill is not possible, or nerfed like wail, my main contribution in a group setting switches from killing mobs to basically webbing them for melee along with various buffs. The wizard dps options are significantly worse than for sorcs due to casting speed, lower sp pool, and greater requirement for flexibility across elements meaning any particular one is not going to have as many ap invested in it. With the way Turbine keeps nerfing instakill, you have to specialise in it more and more, but at the same time you still hit mobs that have various wards that are impossible to remove (when MD, a disjuntion effect in PnP which can strip artifacts of their power simply fizzles on orange named in L21+ quests, you know somethings not right).

So I took a decision a while back: whilst I enjoy playing wizards more than any other class in DnD games for the tactical considerations involved, I refuse to play that class in an MMO where the developers are hellbent on accommodating the whining of poorly built melee players who can't stand for other classes to have kill options. So, now when I play arcane, its sorc, but usually I just play a different class entirely. Its the only rational decision because of the propensity to nerf that exists.

While I will say that I'm definitely NOT a fan of whining melee, nor understand for a second why anyone is crying about nerfing the other guy...

I play a PM elf wizard. She's spec-ed for spell pen, as much as can be mustered considering her PLs, which means she doesn't exactly have much room for uber DPS. And I still make use of a lot more than necro spells, but even in that department I don't feel all that let down:
1. FoD and PWK: instakill, if possible to get that divine before they cast DW, AMAZING. Great to remove the worst threat.
2. Wail and Circle of Death: I love Circle cause it's from farther away, not a huge fan of the two saves, but it's okay. The new wail still fits with my style as I was never into getting half the map chasing me and then BOOM.
So what if these are on timer or do not work?
3. Electric spells: even if they save, half damage. No real investment in evocation and they still are badass in a mob of silly undead (there's instakills for undead too on top of this). The new caster sticks mean I see very lovely numbers.
4. Acid spells: oh lala, my epic diabolist is +3 to conjuration, guess what... acid spells + web yummyness. Acid Rain pretty much. Gather, web/dance, RAIN!
5. Boss? Again, caster sticks make it so the bosses come down faster what with 2 powerful DOTs.

Do I think using electric and acid spells make me less like a crazy lich, messenger of death? NO! Every undead I've met has tried to throw crazy spells at me (that hurt a lot), it totally is within my expectations of the DDO world.

WF AM necro/conjuration? Oh my, dearie, you are missing out! Pull out that web and that acid rain and steal all the kills! There's DW on that priestess and other such nonsense? Dragon Bolt is mighty sexy.

Does my ice savant human sorcerer do a lot more damage than my PM wizard? Hell yes.
But my ice savant is a very carefully played toon or she'd spend half her time DEAD like the silly fleshie savants I've met in Caught in the web (75% of time dead, LE SIGH). My wizard? If she's solo and panick sets in, she can get an army with her enchantment spells, she can stop things in their track, she can instakill, she can rain AOE on their asses while they cannot move... How could you possibly not feel like a crazy uber lich?

Oh yes, you're a robot. Which means you should feel even more like a crazy uber monster to be feared and run away from! You have repairs and no gazillion amount of damage from spammy divine punishment everywhere.

[oweieie]

This be kind of a silly topic, Every caster out there got buffed up from the update... the spell power system seen to that, the ed's even moreso... Outside of the change to wail - which all insta-button-aoe-killa-ma-bob things took a hit - All caster spells and sp management became a ton easier. The only place a caster struggles at all with SP bars and such be Epic Elite citw (by which they actually should, in fact it would be NICE if more quests few into this scope)... Short and simple.



The EDs were pretty minor bonuses to casters, they were mainly a massive melee buff.

[Hokiewa]

Well, ideally, your real world finances should not make a game easier for you. Not a multiplayer game, anyway. Would you not be bothered if they simply sold an unlimited spell point bar for a hundred dollars or so?

Real world dollars make virtually all MMOs quicker for those that choose that path. That's been a reality for a decade. It's not a competitive game, yet you act like it is some personal affront that someone blows a bunch of money to advance quicker. Answer the question, what's the difference btw a stack of store bought pots vs. a stack of found/turned in pots. Again nothing.

Why would I be bothered? Unlimited spell point bars virtually exist now. Why shouldn't real world finances make a non-competitive game quicker for a player if he chooses. Players are free to never group with that player again.

[Cinos]

Real world dollars make virtually all MMOs quicker for those that choose that path. That's been a reality for a decade. It's not a competitive game, yet you act like it is some personal affront that someone blows a bunch of money to advance quicker. Answer the question, what's the difference btw a stack of store bought pots vs. a stack of found/turned in pots. Again nothing.

Why would I be bothered? Unlimited spell point bars virtually exist now. Why shouldn't real world finances make a non-competitive game quicker for a player if he chooses. Players are free to never group with that player again.

I just answered you. Infinite versus limited supply.

[Hokiewa]

Let me give you a very quick example from this morning. I've been running Tor on some of my high levels since I realized that the NEW armors are quite a bit different than the OLD ones (I'm actually going to keep both). The first time I ran it on my level 25 bard, and it was a cakewalk, but with me and everyone else doing roughly the same amount of damage and while I topped the kill count on the first run (running with level 18s or so), I didn't on the second (running with a level 24 monk).

This morning, however, I decide to use my sorc (lvl 25). At first I tried to hold back quite a bit, but it quickly became apparent that if I did that, the entire kill count would go to an artificer and his dog. So I switched gears. The final kill count was something like me 48, artificer 36, and everyone else like 18 - and I wasn't even trying, at all. It is like that in high level content as well, I can just do a better job of keeping things even because the mobs have more durability.

Do you really think that the people who got 1 or 2 kills were having fun that run? Really?



In all-caster parties, I've never seen a reason to hold aggro. If everyone is doing roughly equivalent damage at range and you can run away at will (and self-heal), who cares who has aggro?

Even if you get one-shot by the boss and die, somebody will just raise you unless the raid mechanics prevent it. Then you might have a reason for a "tank."

So what? Who are you to decide what is fun for someone else? You held back because of some bizarre notion that you are ruining the fun for someone else?

Really, any debate that begins with kill count, ends with the same nonsense. It's absurd.

[Hokiewa]

I just answered you. Infinite versus limited supply.

Lol, it's not an answer. Spell points are virtually unlimited as it is. I expected more.

[mwgarn]

Its not a buff, not to anyone who prepares the battleground first. Old Wail, if you thought you may have a problem with mob DCs, you'd set up a circle of death to debuff before casting wail. You'd also gather lots of mobs together to hit more than 6.

The new wail is nowhere near as good; sure, against 2-4 mobs which are saving against your DCs it may be situationally better than the old one, but against a crowd of trash you now have no option but to web / disco ball and then aoe nuke.

This is not playing to wizard strengths at all, and is a massive nerf. You may as well roll a sorc these days, as Turbine just doesn't seem to be able to handle the complaints from melee about instadeath spells and instead periodically nerfs arcanes (wizards in particular) to appease them.

This, I spend more time discoing, holding , and webbing and then firewall, ice storm, or acid rain then I have since I leveled past necro 4... It's just silly... Every mob at end game now are ether undead, death warded, red named(raid), or has such crazy spell resistance that I don't even bother anymore..

[deahamlet]

In all-caster parties, I've never seen a reason to hold aggro. If everyone is doing roughly equivalent damage at range and you can run away at will (and self-heal), who cares who has aggro?

Even if you get one-shot by the boss and die, somebody will just raise you unless the raid mechanics prevent it. Then you might have a reason for a "tank."

Aggro should only be discussed, imho, about RAIDS.
Yes, sometimes people do all caster, all rogue, all halfling and whatever else, raids. But most raids are balance 12 people parties (or less) hopefully at a difficulty appropriate to the skill level (end-game raid guild should not be running ToD normal, for example). That is when aggro should be a thing. It is a disservice to the divines to be turning a boss in a RAID when all the melees are behind said boss and will get cleaved or whatever else.

Now I assumed that original poster was going on about RAIDS because discussion about aggro in a quest is, to me, simply ridiculous. I can't think of quests where you need anyone to hold aggro of any boss. I also do not know of any daily "caster only" raids being run on Orien. Apologies if your server is swimming with LFMs for caster only raids, I have no experience with such on my server.
In fact, PUGs start freaking out at 3+ casters (that are not divines) even in Shroud.

So if a group has a normal PUG or even raiding guild group composition... there will be melee behind or flanking boss and you turning the boss like a turnip cause you do not know how to control yourself, gear yourself or cause the tank isn't that good... IS BAD. Killing 2-3 melee in one wrong move is just downright rude. Not to the melee, but to the divine. And if someone does stupid **** like that, I expect them to pay with some scrolls and pots for being an ass.

[350zguy]

When it is a team sport... You care a lot less about who is getting the kills.

Save or Die, makes for a very difficult situation in "class" balance. If one archtype can SoD mobs, and mobs have 2k, 3k, 4k hit points. Then all "DPS" is irrelevant except on a Red Name.

[Tyrande]

This thread again?! Why are people so obsess with kill counts?

After you get to cap XP at epic 3,000,000. It doesn't matter who completed the quest with the most kills. The important thing is the XP received for leveling destinies and possibly loot if people are still looking for that.

Arcane caster(s) can help making the quest run faster. Why do people want to nerf their own XP?

[Emili]

The EDs were pretty minor bonuses to casters, they were mainly a massive melee buff.

Yes, the were a large increase on melee but... I suggest you play around more with them on blue bars. ;)


Why would I be bothered? Unlimited spell point bars virtually exist now. Why shouldn't real world finances make a non-competitive game quicker for a player if he chooses. Players are free to never group with that player again.

Outside a raid blue-bar'd builds do not need a group... for that matter, no one really does but is more prevalent and quicker with a blue-bar and that's pretty much fact.


Arcane (or divine) caster(s) make the quest run faster. Why do people want to nerf their own XP?

Fixed...

Oh, an' speaking of farming ED xp ... is easiest to pike behind the blue-bar on you melee in Rusted or Undead. Gear for your melee, use your blue-bar to get it quicker, oh and melee, we need them in raids, so least flag them once. ;)

[Cinos]

This thread again?! Why are people so obsess with kill counts?

After you get to cap XP at epic 3,000,000. It doesn't matter who completed the quest with the most kills. The important thing is the XP received for leveling destinies and possibly loot if people are still looking for that.

Arcane caster(s) can help making the quest run faster. Why do people want to nerf their own XP?

Well, I'd imagine some people don't play just to cap, but to have fun. It's just my personal theory, mind you.

[Tyrande]

Well, I'd imagine some people don't play just to cap, but to have fun. It's just my personal theory, mind you.

In that case, why don't they solo or duo with a hireling or do not group with any class that can out kill them in kill counts. Problem solved?

[Emili]

In that case, why don't they solo or duo with a hireling or do not group with any class that can out kill them in kill counts. Problem solved?

Don't care who kills what, or even if it's dies if it's not a quest requirement. heck, I solo EE The Portals Open on a bard for fun though typically half as slow than my wiz... but the truth of it all be efficiency, time be money some say, DDO time be gear/xp, time be all ... if you play eight hours or one a day is all the same as they say, the quicker the better ... fourteen runs or seven, which do you prefer?

... but back to the original poster's comment and observation... by which all of my replies and intuition concur.


I know that arcanes got nerfed a bit with the recent update, but they still seem pretty strong to me. :)

Casters did not get nerfed at all ... all classes got increased in scope and power. Blue-bar is stronger than ever it was.

[350zguy]

I always felt this way in PnP.

Once a casting class starts coming into it's own... The melee classes felt so... weak.

The wizards being able to control when, and where the fight happens.

"I'll stab that wizard with my sword!"

DDoor, no you won't.
Teleport, no you want.
Invis, no you wont.
Displace, no you wont.
blur, no you wont.


"I have magic items to stop the wizard!"

Mord Disjunct.... You're a naked fighter. You're just dead.

DDO is similar...

I'll fight you wizard!

No you won't, I'll just run, and AE you down....

[Tyrande]

I always felt this way in PnP.

Once a casting class starts coming into it's own... The melee classes felt so... weak.

The wizards being able to control when, and where the fight happens.

"I'll stab that wizard with my sword!"

Wrong strategy. Rush and stunning blow the wizard from the wizard's behind or trip the wizard from behind. Rogues assassinate and Monks erase or quivering palm: almost no save from that.



DDoor, no you won't.
Teleport, no you want.
Invis, no you wont.
Displace, no you wont.
blur, no you wont.

There is a counter to those spells:
Where is your true seeing item when its so common place in DDO?
e.g. Voice + Mantle, Tharne's Goggles, Desert Sandstorm Goggles, etc.



"I have magic items to stop the wizard!"

Mord Disjunct.... You're a naked fighter. You're just dead.

I do not know any caster loading that spell except may be The Abbot.

Backup items? Strategy in fighting most casters, kill it fast and don't let it see you first.

Use your mind, do not let the mind tricks let you think you're dead.

[nebogloee]

Thanks for insinuating that I'm a bad player. I'm not a holdbot, if I wanted to do that I'd TR to an archmage so i can hide behind the party buffing and holding, content in the knowledge that I made a difference somehow. I'm a Pale Master, a student of the Necromantic arts, and I wholeheartedly feel I should be able to use my power to control life and death over whole armies, not "2 enemies every 2 seconds for 6 seconds".
...
It either is balanced or it isn't, and I could have taken my spoonful of nerf medicine on this matter if it weren't for this kind of inconsistency. It smacks of taking one classes' toys and giving it to another just for the sake of appeasing those who thought it wasn't fair. And if you can't understand why EiN is just as powerful as the old WotB, you should look closer.

A level 17 spell is not as powerful as a tier 6 epic moment? Sounds about right to me.

[Vormaerin]

Wrong strategy. Rush and stunning blow the wizard from the wizard's behind or trip the wizard from behind. Rogues assassinate and Monks erase or quivering palm: almost no save from that.




You do realize he's talking about p&p, where most of that stuff doesn't work like it does in DDO?

Trip and Stunning Blow can't be done with weapons in p&p, unless the weapon has a specific modifier to allow that. Quivering Palm can be *attempted* once per WEEK.

[Tyrande]

You do realize he's talking about p&p, where most of that stuff doesn't work like it does in DDO?

Trip and Stunning Blow can't be done with weapons in p&p, unless the weapon has a specific modifier to allow that. Quivering Palm can be *attempted* once per WEEK.

Okay, in that case; melees in DDO are tremendously buffed from their P&P counterparts.

[Emili]

Okay, in that case; melees in DDO are tremendously buffed from their P&P counterparts.
D&D is a role playing game with turn based action where a unbias'd (hopefully) DM calls the judgment rules... turns are based and modified off skills such as (spot, listen) an initiative roll - dex modifier as to who manages to edge in first into the action. ;) Movement, feats and speed all typically have more prevalence in D&D due it's turn/round/segment scope... game-play in actualy time slow to cover what are but minutes in realtime.


Trip and Stunning Blow can't be done with weapons in p&p, unless the weapon has a specific modifier to allow that. Quivering Palm can be *attempted* once per WEEK.

Trip is an attack to anyone in D&D ... even a wiz may attempt tripping although can't say many would land one. Missing are other free things like like grappling and such, our feat list short of many really nice things like overrun and such. Stunning Blow however just requires feating. Certain weapon types enhance these things but they are not "required".

All the same, I do not imagine it's very difficult to understand the DM manages his campaign, what scope of challenge and power within it in terms of items and game-play he micro-manages to involve alll the players at the table... it is up to him to balance it all including the power levels attainable by any given player to do so. Sometimes they slip and allow introduction of some awesome artifact, item ... and find themselves having to plot to remove such thing to reestablish the balance. D&D however be more about the story arc, role play, lore and where the players fit into the story... They face none-other than themselves and chance within thier journey to reveal the outcome. That be D&D.

[Vormaerin]

Trip is an attack to anyone in D&D ... even a wiz may attempt tripping although can't say many would land one. Missing are other free things like like grappling and such, our feat list short of many really nice things like overrun and such. Stunning Blow however just requires feating. Certain weapon types enhance these things but they are not "required".


Yes, but it is still an "unarmed melee touch attack" and, as such, lets the other guy with weapons do an attack of opportunity on you. Avoiding that AoO is the main function of Improved Trip, though the size modifier change is nice too.

If there is a Stunning Blow feat in p&p, its in one of the optional books. My understanding is that melee need to take the improved MA feat and then Stunning Fist for that. There's no Stunning someone with a great axe attack.

Anyway, p&p is quite different from DDO. Casters are also massively buffed by the switch to spell points from memorizing individual spells by slot. However, the general relationship between casters and melee is the same: melee are better at low level, there's a brief window of equality in the mid levels, then casters dominate. Yes, a good DM will choose opponents and situations that allow the entire party to shine. But that's not a function of the rules as written. That's adjusting things to compensate.

Granted, there is so much optional content (especially PrCs) of highly variable caliber, that I wouldn't be surprised if some combination of PrC abilities gave a barbarian an special axe strike that split atoms. Some of the optional stuff is way, way out there.

[Hokiewa]

:D


Outside a raid blue-bar'd builds do not need a group... for that matter, no one really does but is more prevalent and quicker with a blue-bar and that's pretty much fact.



Heh, I get what you are saying but I've not needed a "blue-bar" in quite some time for non-raids, on virtually any character. For the most part, it's much quicker for me to solo/duo then to wait for a "bb". That is fact :D

[sparty55]

Why do you want casters nerfed, OP? If they can't be powerful, then what reason would there be to roll a caster?

A trash beater that runs off of an SP pool? No thanks, might as well roll a Monk then. Casters are hard to play, so when you play them right, they're stronger than Melees. That's it. That's balanced. Higher skill, higher potential.

Same thing goes for AC Melee builds. You don't see anyone complaining about good AC builds being over powered though.

Agreed. Casters are just fine, they are harder to play and very powerful at higher levels. That's a balance.

[Emili]

:D

Heh, I get what you are saying but I've not needed a "blue-bar" in quite some time for non-raids, on virtually any character. For the most part, it's much quicker for me to solo/duo then to wait for a "bb". That is fact :D

That is what I said, does it matter? I solo a lot too even on a pure fighter and barb 90% of the favour I ran on both those was done - alone... hirelingless or sometimes will grab Albus for his longer duration DW then park him.

Still as I said though, emphasis be, will finish any quest quicker in average on a blue-bar toon than on something which hasn't... the same is true for you or anyone who knows how to play. Just how it is.

So come... when you look at the heavy players in game, you'd find all the really die-hard mostly use thier blue-bar toons to farm - gear up - and build upon even thier melee. That itself tells the story. be my point.

[350zguy]

The movement in the game is what makes "blue bars" OP.

The fact that 80%+ of the damage in game can be mitigated by simply running in a circle...

Then the blue bars have the ability to lay down a WoF, IceStorm, Blade Barrier, and other spells that will kill.... ALL the mobs, for 25ish mana.

So you take VERY few hits, the mobs all die.

Melees need to plant their feet, and wait for combat animations to laydown damage. We don't.

That is the secret sauce.

Add in 4 different Save or Die spells, and now the "movement" based classes are getting better and better and the "I must stand here and swing my axe" classes get eclipsed.

Its not that they can't lay out GREAT damage, it's not that they can't kill mobs, and handle solo encounters.... It's they can't mitigate 90% of the game damage, and stay 90% as effective while running like a fool... In a circle.

Add in the fact every blue bar has "easy" options to heal themselves for huge numbers, and you've got a perfect storm.

[Hokiewa]

Snip



I don't believe you understand my original point that you quoted.

We are not in disagreement

[Son_of_the_South]

I didn't call on anything to be nerfed. In fact, I was originally going to say arcanes were "overpowered" in the thread title, but specifically didn't want to go there.

The better question for me is: what reason is there right now to roll anything that is NOT a caster?

I think the ideal is a situation where every class has its own unique flavor and capabilities, but that none are clearly more powerful than the others. That is not even remotely the case right now. When six arcanes can blow through a quest easily but six melees would probably wipe, that represents a problem that IMO should be addressed.

And sorry, I don't agree with "casters are hard to play", especially with 19 TR4 sorceror levels under my belt. Unless you think rotating among a few spellcasting keys is "hard". There's a bit of SP management skill required, but even that goes away in a group with multiple arcanes.

NO. You cannot simply say "That is not even remotely the case right now. When six arcanes can blow through a quest easily but six melees would probably wipe, that represents a problem that IMO should be addressed."

There are too many factors involved/influencing the outcome of "six melees would probably wipe" to make such a sweeping and, probably, innacurate generalisation such as that. Are the melees stoned characters? Do they have the right gear? Are they TR's? Are they carrying Lit II's???? Etc etc. Ive been in quests where, as a Sorc/Wizard, without the melee's we would have been toast. It''s purely situational and i really wish people would weigh all sides of a topic before posting "Santa didnt bring me my bike for christmas so im going to throw a tantrum" thread.