Guild Leveling and Decay [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

WhiiteWolf

08-09-2012, 12:51 PM

Hi All,

Would just like to give a heads-up on the guild renown calculations, there are some serious issues reguarding this renown thing. The guild I'm in is working their fingers to the bone, trying to keep this renown thing in check but it is literally impossible, we worked for weeks just to get our Guild from level 60 to 61, we finally did it last night and I log on today to see we are basically back where we started.

Could you you please put a better explaination of renown decay and how it is calculated on the news part of the log in.

Also do you think it could be changed that at least when a Guild obtains a level that we at least keep the level that some guilds due to low numbers, account size ect. struggle to obtain. These Guilds are having the rug pulled from under them and it is not a very nice feeling.

It's not an easy thing for some Guilds as they have many people in different time zones, if it were possible to get everyone on at the same time, Guild leveling might not be that bad, but due to the different times there may be only 12 people on from one area and that may be the time the renown is calculated and the next time there maybe onlt 6 people on and thus a losing battle to gain it back.

It has to be a better way of doing this renown thing, either let us keep the levels we struggle to get or get rid of decay all together.

It's got to be a better way, this is the very reason why it is so hard for decent Guilds to keep people. Who wants to be in a guild that is 1 level today and log in the next day and your back where you started, they move on and this in turn hurts that Guild even more with the decay. it's not that they are not trying it's just too much of a struggle for some Guilds. Thus NO FUN ANY MORE !!!!!!

Also Guilds may get people to join but in the same day or mere hours later they leave, now them leaving the Guild and XP they get doesn't hurt then Guild but their leaving stays with the Guild for 2 weeks as mod account size and thus gets put into the calculation, this isn't right and is very open to abuse from people who may hold a grudge against a previous Guild, and use this action to bring a Guild down.

The DEVS are doing all this stupid stuff with companions, and accessories and well.... it isn't a bad thing but that stuff can always be done later as far as I'm concerned, put that much needed time into fixin/re-vamping a truely broken system and bring some fun back into making a Guild.

if it isn't something done about this the Idea of the Guild will be a memory and instead of having many guilds to choose from there will be only a dozen or so because people are not going to join Guilds that everyday is a struggle to ontain something.

Cheers! WhiteWolf

madmaxhunter

08-09-2012, 12:54 PM

Let me try to beat the trolls, "don't worry about guild levels, just play the game" and "this has been posted a million times"

Now, I will say, yet again, the more complaint posts about the current system the better.

/signed for an overhaul of the system.

Kindoki

08-09-2012, 01:32 PM

http://ddowiki.com/page/Guild_Renown

eris2323

08-09-2012, 01:36 PM

Also signing in favor of MAJOR revisions to the guild system, to make it less of an anti-social game where casual players are penalized, and unwanted.

madmaxhunter

08-09-2012, 01:44 PM

Also signing in favor of MAJOR revisions to the guild system, to make it less of an anti-social game where casual players are penalized, and unwanted.

/signed

Weren't we just disagreeing with each other on another thread? :)

Siro

08-09-2012, 01:45 PM

Also signing in favor of MAJOR revisions to the guild system, to make it less of an anti-social game where casual players are penalized, and unwanted.

Some guilds favor more casual players. A huge guild with 200-some casually-active players can easily get guild levels up over level 70 (at lvl 70 the decay with that many members is something like 108,000 a day, which means each active member need only get 500-600ish renown to hold the level). One can trip over that much renown in a single quest from chests or from chests of rares in slayer areas. It certainly takes longer than a 6-man guild going full-bore, but it's still very doable.

All that being said, a friendlier guild renown system would be nice.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 01:50 PM

Some guilds favor more casual players. A huge guild with 200-some casually-active players can easily get guild levels up over level 70 (at lvl 70 the decay with that many members is something like 108,000 a day, which means each active member need only get 500-600ish renown to hold the level). One can trip over that much renown in a single quest from chests or from chests of rares in slayer areas. It certainly takes longer than a 6-man guild going full-bore, but it's still very doable.

All that being said, a friendlier guild renown system would be nice.

I don't believe a guild should ever have to choose between accepting casual and new players and being effectively 'capped' at a certain level, or only accepting hardcore play-every-day types in the hopes of going higher.

Most casual large guilds hit the wall. The wall shouldn't exist. There should always be a way to advance; even if it's slow, that's fine. But being stuck in the same place solely because you accept casual players hurts the game, I believe.

(and yeah madmaxhunter, i believe we were - but I ain't all bad) :)

Coyopa

08-09-2012, 01:57 PM

eris2323

08-09-2012, 02:03 PM

Too often, leaders and officers run around willy-nilly inviting anyone who isn't in a guild. NOT SMART.

This is only 'not smart' when you take the current system into mind. Changing it would make it friendlier to new players.

At this time, there is no incentive to allow a totally new player into your guild - they may or may not play, but they WILL cost you renown decay.

And I don't see why it's a problem if guilds would be allowed to invite who they want. It's their guild, not yours.

If you want a small, close-knit family of people who are only 6 people, and can therefore never even fill a full raid, that should be your choice.

If I want to log into my guild and see 30 currently active, online players, so I can say 'GUILD SHROUD, WHOS WITH ME?' and fill quickly, I should be able to.

How is my vision of the guild hurting you? If you prefer a tiny guild and want to take advantage of small guild bonus, feel free to.

But I'd like some freedom too.

THOTHdha

08-09-2012, 02:07 PM

Most casual large guilds hit the wall. The wall shouldn't exist. There should always be a way to advance; even if it's slow, that's fine. But being stuck in the same place solely because you accept casual players hurts the game, I believe.

The major guild rewards end at guild level 63, which is very sustainable for a casual guild. The way that the system was designed shows that it was never intended for every guild in the game to hit level 100, or even advance much past the 70s. There is nothing wrong with hitting a wall, when that wall is placed after all of the major power.

It's not an easy thing for some Guilds as they have many people in different time zones, if it were possible to get everyone on at the same time, Guild leveling might not be that bad, but due to the different times there may be only 12 people on from one area and that may be the time the renown is calculated and the next time there maybe onlt 6 people on and thus a losing battle to gain it back.

The number of people online is not relevant for decay calculations. It uses your total guild size, plus 10.

Also Guilds may get people to join but in the same day or mere hours later they leave, now them leaving the Guild and XP they get doesn't hurt then Guild but their leaving stays with the Guild for 2 weeks as mod account size and thus gets put into the calculation, this isn't right and is very open to abuse from people who may hold a grudge against a previous Guild, and use this action to bring a Guild down.

If people join and then leave in the same day, then it is likely that they didn't really know what they were getting into in the first place. Maybe if you are more selective in your recruiting this could be avoided? I am not saying that you are definitely doing this kind of thing, but the guilds that blind invite spam everyone in the harbor are generally the types of guild that never goes anywhere. This is not a random fluke.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 02:15 PM

I believe there IS something wrong with hitting a wall, and never, ever, having the opportunity to advance.

You seem to think it's okay.

That's fine.

Your level 63 figure forgets about Large slots. Oh. And the larger ship (more hookpoints) - and the altar of devestation. And the higher exp shrine buffs.

Those are important to some people. Maybe not you, but some people.

FYI.

So, no, I don't agree. There should never be a complete wall. I believe it's human nature to want to be part of something that is growing, and not stagnant, and unable to get any more levels. People get tired of that, they get tired of beating their heads against the renown wall. Then they leave, and cause more decay for the large, casual guild. For 2 weeks.

Working for 2 full years should not leave you in the same place, solely because you want to be casual and newbie friendly. Quite the opposite.

You should never be forced to think to yourself "well, we can't gain any more renown per day, as we have too many casual players, so we'll have to remove some of them".

Moonsickle

08-09-2012, 02:23 PM

Well, consider me not signed. Sorry. Be selective about the people you invite into your guild. Make sure they get along with existing members. This means make time to group with prospective recruits. Get to them know. Also, be selective about who your officers are. Make sure they know the recruitment process and the type of players you want to attract. Further, knowing who you wish to attract will help you to engage in activities that will make your guild an attractive place for those players to be.

Too often, leaders and officers run around willy-nilly inviting anyone who isn't in a guild. NOT SMART.

Well you've solved the Renown Decay problem...

Guilds = only accept active players [subject to you liking them or not]

Guildless = casual players

otherwise you've actually missed the whole point of the problem here???

it's not about the "quality" of the people in a guild...

it's about rubberbanding of your Renown due to having casual players in your guild... which could be the bestamest guildmates in all the world but the worst when it comes to Guild Renown if they're not playing all the time or running content at/around their level.

btw... anyone who creates a Vet Status II character [lvl 7] then starts out by going back to Korthos then Harbor for favor & some xp will not NOT be getting much, if any Renown even though they are actively playing

forgot... people leaving guild shouldn't be a problem as most if gained any Renown, you'd be at plus as most will 10% loss out even at 25% you'd have a net gain... but it's the penalty you suffer for 2 weeks till their leaving clears that can hurt especially if they gained zero renown.

They needed a "pledge" option that way if they left before say 14 days, you wouldn't get hit with 2 week penalty... that way they get a feel for if that guild is really right for them

.

wolfy42

08-09-2012, 02:36 PM

I think everyone knows this is a problem.

One one of the servers I have a character who is in a level 50 ish guild. It's not a huge guild mind you, but it's not tiny either. We have been going up a level then dropping back down again for a month plus.

In theory we only lose renown for each active account, not each character we have, and it should be possible for us to easily keep up with our decay. In practice.....not so much.

We'll get 50% to our next guild level, log off at night, and the next morning we lost everything we gained after hours of play....and that is only in the 50s!!

Yes, we could expel people who don't play as much, who are new etc....but we are a friendly guild who invites new players and tries to help them etc. This current system basically blows for any helpfull guilds.

I propose guild decay be capped at 10% of renown for next level. You can never, no matter how many members you have in your guild, lose more then 10% of the guild renown for you to gain another guild level. You'll still go down guild levels if that would drop you below the total amount for your current level, and a guild that has nobody play in it will eventually revert to level 26 just like now....but instead of going from lvl 58.8 to 58.1 over night....you would go from 58.8 to 58.7.

This would make it so even a large guild with many players could always advance if even a small group of people in that guild play for a significant period of time.

10% at the higher levels is still a large amount.....but it would make a difference even then, and it would make a huge diff in the low to mid levels.

Coyopa

08-09-2012, 02:48 PM

eris2323

08-09-2012, 02:59 PM

With only 13 accounts, you have no idea what other people are up against. You just, have no idea.

Sorry about that.

N1ko

08-09-2012, 03:03 PM

As much as a nice tweak to the system would be, at this point I personally would rather see the devs working on other issues. While the system is not friendly to casual players, it is not game breaking (sure you don't have the "fancy buffs", but that is not game breaking in of itself).

Coyopa

08-09-2012, 03:10 PM

With only 13 accounts, you have no idea what other people are up against. You just, have no idea.

Sorry about that.

Well, you assume that I've not been in a large guild before. That's your error. I've been in large guilds before. I've seen the crazy renown decay. I've seen what happens when you invite everyone under the sun without first grouping with them. Why do you think the decision was taken to be selective about who we invite and to make sure we like them and they like us? I and my officers made that decision before I even created the guild specifically because we were tired of the way the previous guild was being run. We were tired of the guild never leveling because the account size was so high due to turn-over. We were tired of getting new guild members that no one had ever grouped with who turned out to be unpleasant, ignorant of the game *and* unwilling to learn or take advice. Our guild has grown slowly because we are selective. That's the way it goes when you're selective about who you invite. Would I like to have more members in the guild? Yep. Absolutely. Is it going to happen any time soon? Definitely not. Them's the breaks.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 03:13 PM

I think the point is, if enough people complain about the current, unfriendly system, PERHAPS we'll see a change.

Perhaps.

Maybe.

Possibly.

But don't hold your breath.

A lot of people have been complaining lately - perhaps, someday, we'll see some changes.

Or perhaps the devs will at LEAST stop forgetting to add renown to new stuff they develop.

Maybe.

Possibly

Could be.

Zlingerdark

08-09-2012, 05:25 PM

Where did I say only invite active players? Any new character created will not have a guild at the outset. You can group with casual players and decide whether you want them in your guild. Turbine has stated up-front that they want guilds that achieve the highest levels to have to work for it - that it is supposed to be for bragging rights. So, since those are the parameters, figure out how to work within them. Balance your casual players with some active players.

My guild has 13 accounts with 2 currently inactive and 2 more likely to go inactive within about 10 days. These last two were my most active players and I have noticed that renown acquisition has slowed. Most of the rest of my guild is composed of casual players. Yet, somehow, my guild has managed to reach L68. Granted, we lost L68 the same night we got it the first time because no one was able to stay on to build in the buffer to prevent de-leveling. However, the very next day, we re-leveled to L68, have kept it since, and are making steady progress toward L69. I figure our break-even point is going to be between L85 and L90. So, if I want the guild level to get closer to 100, then I'll have to recruit some additional people to help with the renown acquisition. Alternatively, I could kick the more casual players, but they are quality players and good friends. So, that's not an option, especially when it isn't hard to route around the decay they add.

I said to be selective about who you invite because the point of a guild is to be friends with the people in it and to group with those people. So, if you're selective about who you invite, then you end up inviting people you can be reasonably certain will be a member for a long time to come. If you choose not to be selective about who you invite, then you end up with near-constant turnover. This pumps your modified account size, which boosts your renown decay. After all, it *is* possible to be friends with a majority of the people in your guild, even when that guild is large.

So your answer to the problem is to leave a large and active guild, and form a small cliche and take every advantage to reduce renown decay. Do you realize that guild choice here had zero to do with quality members, but everything to do with members who pull their weight in renown gathering and what guild level they were able to attain?

I am certain you could have found a half dozen or more like members in the large guild to run around with almost exclusively, if you truly didn't care about renown or guild level. Happens all the time in my guild. Does everybody get to run with everybody? Not likely. Even in a large guild, such as mine, we all have sorts of player-types. Hard-core zergers who only focus is maximizing exp/min and gobbling up all the renown they can get in the process. Casual folks who spend more time chatting and socializing with the guild than they do actually questing. Some spend hours merely perusing the AH, or crafting. Each in their own way are a presence in the guild and contribute to it in more ways than some stupid guild renown system.

You effectively left a guild BECAUSE of renown decay stagnation. If your idea of a normal guild is just 13 members is nothing more than a cliche of close friends who play with each other, and ONLY with them.

Our guild is still quite active and often have up to 30+ members online at peak hours and roughly a handful on off hours. However we have been stuck at guild level 70 for well over 6-months now with no real hope of ever gaining another. Thankfully our guild doesn't focus on guild renown or level, except as a matter of pride, but the QUALITY of our members. Our guild is closed to recruitment and the only way you can get in is of you are sponsored by an existing member(s) who has run with you and has determined that you would be a good fit. I forget the exact account size, but I am certain it is over 100.

I am not saying renown decay must go away, it shouldn't. I AM saying that the daily renown formula needs some serious tweaking to look at not just how many accounts the guild has, and which has been active in the last few weeks. I am saying that the decay formula needs to take into account that guild ACTIVITY is good NOT bad. If a guild has regular players playing often enough it should suffer less of a penalty to renown than those that have most inactive members.

Remember the whole point of decay in the first place is to weed out old inactive guilds and eventually reduce them down so that they do not forever remain at max guild level.

So if your guild is inactive (say less than 25% of the accounts have logged on within a week) the guild suffers the full renown decay rate. If the guild is considered active (say more than 25% but less than 50% of its members have logged on within the past week) suffers a reduced renown decay rate. Perhaps only 50% of the full rate. And lastly to reward the highly active guilds who manage to sustain an active member base above 50%, they suffer minimal decay, say only 25% of the full rate.

At least that way active guilds would not be treated as if they were essentially a small guild without any bonuses to renown.

Oh, and good luck if you think your small guild of 13 mostly casual players will make it past level 70. You might be FORCED to drop them lodestones and get nothing but 10-12 8-10 hour a day hard-core players instead. Truly good luck on that.

Tshober

08-09-2012, 05:38 PM

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 05:38 PM

When the F**K did this decay thing start?!?!

/Signed
/Signed

A million times signed!

I have a guild that consists of exactly 2 actual, active, functional, extremly casual players. We spent over a freaking YEAR just getting high enough level to buy an airship, only to find out that we couldn't do ANYTHING useful with it until we leveled up a lot more.

And now, apparently we are never ever actually going to be able to do anything with it because you are telling me renown DECAYS?!

Ok, I may be a little angry.

A lot angry.

Urg.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 05:45 PM

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 05:51 PM

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 05:51 PM

The worst part, as I read through the system more thoroughly is it will basically punished my guild hard for being a nice guy.

I routinely, as in probably once or twice a week, answer the requests of new players "can someone please invite me to a guild?" One time the guy quite 30 seconds later, other times they join, play the game once for a few hours, and then go inactive, I wait 5 or 6 weeks and boot them, firmly believing I was doing my guild no harm by giving no players a chance to belong. So far no one has stuck around, the join guilds that don't consist of 2 casual players only able to devote a few hours a week, that's frickin fine with me! I happily pass out items, plat, and send them on their way, sincerly hoping they enjoy the game.

Now, apparently, I should stop doing that. Not that it will matter, because my guild is no forever stuck at 26 no matter what we do.

Thanks Turbine! I'm not buying anymore turbine points.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 05:56 PM

Turbine, players, guilds, etc. wants players (casual, hardcore, come one, come all). Yes?

If yes, do we (ALL of us) really want a mechanism in the game that forces us, the player base, to choose between keeping the casual player or guild levels. When we feel we have to choose the guild level (that benefits our more active members) over the casual player, they get the boot. What a thoroughly cruddy decision to make.

I feel we, as a large casual guild, provide a safe haven to a lot of casual DDO gamers, who enjoy having a large guild ship to supplement their DDO gaming experience. And in return, Turbine smacks our bottoms with this stupid, needless, hurtful decay system.

Hey, Turbine? Help us help YOU keep the casual gamer here on DDO by doing away with us losing guild levels due to decay.

Please?

Agreed. Some guilds were MEANT to be a home for casual and new players. We provide a service, by accepting them into our guild, teaching them the game, telling them about tactics and loot, and even do raid training.

For this, we should be penalized? I'd think we should be rewarded.

I don't want to kick players out of our guild. It goes against the very reason I originally joined the guild.

I was a new player at the time.

And forcing me to choose to kick inactives and casual players if we EVER want to advance again, is evil.

Don't be evil, Turbine. Please, at least recognize, that large, newbie-friendly, casual guilds HELP your game, moreso than the 12 person powergamer guilds ever will.

Why should we be punished for this?

Tshober

08-09-2012, 05:59 PM

I am not saying renown decay must go away, it shouldn't. I AM saying that the daily renown formula needs some serious tweaking to look at not just how many accounts the guild has, and which has been active in the last few weeks. I am saying that the decay formula needs to take into account that guild ACTIVITY is good NOT bad. If a guild has regular players playing often enough it should suffer less of a penalty to renown than those that have most inactive members.

Yes, it should go away.

There is no good reason to punish casual and social players for being what they are and drive them to other MMO's. No other part of DDO takes away any of your progress once you have earned it. Not even the tiniest little bit of it. Why should guild renown work so completely differently from every other part of DDO?

I agree with most of the rest of the things you said.

Moonsickle

08-09-2012, 06:04 PM

Coyopa as you are obviously the exception to the rule and the model guild that the whole system was based on then.

Unfortunately it takes active people [playing at level] to progress a guild in regards to renown... most casual/inactives get booted these days

So being selective will have people leaning heavily on being active more than anything else...

as say a guild of 50 accounts, everyone is going to play with someone at some point to evaluate if they're guild worthy or not?

Turbine has stated up-front that they want guilds that achieve the highest levels to have to work for it - that it is supposed to be for bragging rights. So, since those are the parameters, figure out how to work within them. Balance your casual players with some active players.

If just for bragging rights...

then why the do high level guild have it where their players that start at lvl 1 [especially after a TR] with a Completionist Ability, Epic Abashai Resists and a mini Destiny worth of buffs for each quest???

While the system is not friendly to casual players, it is not game breaking (sure you don't have the "fancy buffs", but that is not game breaking in of itself).

and that's not game breaking at all... as I'm sure the devs NEVER took that [the above buffs] into account when adjusting the new Heroic Elite difficulty... right???

so if I'm guildless/no airship and was grouped with player with same exact build from a lvl 70 guild with all the ship buffs...

and we both walk into a quest naked we'd both be equal???

Get rid of Guildship buffs and all guilds would have to play for is... bragging rights

so obviously the original planners weren't on the same page with those envisioning ship buffs... I take it?

.

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 06:06 PM

Agreed! It needs to go away completely.

I don't mind loosing renown for booting innactive players, or for players quitting themselves, but to just have it go away due to inaction? That is the worst!

I was actually looking forward to the steady increase, to watching my guild slowly rise through the ranks, level after level, to one day, one fateful day, having done nothing but just played casually and enjoyed the game, and still hitting level 100.

Well apparently that ain't gonna happen because this stupid decay system caps my guild at 26. What the ****?!

Tshober

08-09-2012, 06:06 PM

The worst part, as I read through the system more thoroughly is it will basically punished my guild hard for being a nice guy.

Yes, it does exactly that. A guild that helps lots of new players out and provides a home for lots of casual/social players that the other guilds have shunned (because of decay) will be punished unmercifully forever under the current renown decay policy.

It is difficult for me to even imagine a more anti-social policy.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 06:09 PM

Yes, it does exactly that. A guild that helps lots of new players out and provides a home for lots of casual/social players that the other guilds have shunned (because of decay) will be punished unmercifully forever under the current renown decay policy.

It is difficult for me to even imagine a more anti-social policy.

I can imagine one - One day turbine will tell us we lose experience points from characters for each day we don't play.

Same kinda deal... only the hardcore power gamers deserve to be level 25, right?

zomg it's a joke turbine don't do it

Tshober

08-09-2012, 06:10 PM

Well apparently that ain't gonna happen because this stupid decay system caps my guild at 26. What the ****?!

It won't cap you at 26, but it will cap you eventially (usually around 55 - 70) if you invite a significant number of casual or social players into your guild. The more you invite the sooner you will be capped.

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 06:12 PM

Yes, it should go away.

There is no good reason to punish casual and social players for being what they are and drive them to other MMO's. No other part of DDO takes away any of your progress once you have earned it. Not even the tiniest little bit of it. Why should guild renown work so completely differently from every other part of DDO?

<snip.

Exactly! Although....nerfs.... nah, won't go there..

However.... I get the reasoning behind nerfs. I don't like a lot of them, but I understand the reasoning....

Treating the casual gamer poorly from them being guildless because they get booted from guilds for not contributing enough is just stupid. Send them the message they are not good enough to play in a guild on DDO! That'll show them!

Or, continue to penalize those guilds that provide a guild to those same casual gamers. Lose/lose proposition, from everyone's standpoint it seems to me.

Tshober

08-09-2012, 06:14 PM

I can imagine one - One day turbine will tell us we lose experience points from characters for each day we don't play.

Same kinda deal... only the hardcore power gamers deserve to be level 25, right?

zomg it's a joke turbine don't do it

I am quite certain there are people in these forums who would actually defend such a plan.

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 06:15 PM

Speaking of ship buffs:

Just about every single time I ask for help/advice on this forum, at least one(usually multiple) people pop in the mention airship buffs. Just rattling of a list of "with this, and this, and that, and ship-buffs, and this other" in order to do whatever.

Thanks to this new system, ship buffs are forever and permenantly out of my reach. My guild is never going to reach that level, and I can't join a new guild because I would punish them with the times real life requires me to stop playing for a month at a time.

I play DDO because I can put it down. If I month goes by and I didn't play, I haven't wasted money on a subscription. Now, It appears I have to log in every day and play enough to meet some ****ing quota just to maintain a guild level over 26? Forget it.

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 06:21 PM

It won't cap you at 26, but it will cap you eventially (usually around 55 - 70) if you invite a significant number of casual or social players into your guild. The more you invite the sooner you will be capped.

No, it caps my guild at 26 right now. We have only 2 active players, myself and an old friend from college. And though I log in every day, I routinely go days without running a single dungeon. I ever more routinely stop playing all together, sometimes for months at a time. Any progress we might make will quickly backslide. Sure, we may hit 30 as we're playing pretty actively right now, but as fall rolls around and I turn myself to other passtimes, we will backslide to 26.

This whole system is especailly insulting to me because I am turbine's dream customer: I spent loads of cash on the game, then barely play it. Nearly every time a double bonus-points special comes up, I drop $60 on a point bundle. They got my money, they don't get my server-load. Its a total win for them!

Why am I being punished for being their ideal customer?

Chilldude

08-09-2012, 06:34 PM

I'll happily post in every single guild renown thread I see that the current system is absolutely terrible and should be changed immediately. They should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves for ever coming up with the idea, let alone how long they have allowed it to continue.

Tshober

08-09-2012, 06:45 PM

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 06:45 PM

Ok, so I get the more active players/guilds get the bragging rights to be high levels. Casual players/guilds won't get to achieve those same high levels. OUR choice to either make the effort or not. I'm ok with that.

However, until there is an alternate method to us gaining a guild location (currently: airship), where we can buy the amenities, have a gathering place for our guildies, the current system will continue to suck swamp water.

How about allowing us to work for, and KEEP, an alternative to the guild level required guild location? I am pretty sure that the arbitrary number on our guild name would happily be given up if we were offered the ability to keep what we worked for.

Or am I way off base here?

eris2323

08-09-2012, 06:47 PM

The more who complain, in more places... the more chance we have of both drowning out the powergamers who for some reason think only they deserve to have nice things... and we increase the chance of Turbine actually realizing the anti-social nature of their system, and the harm they are doing to their own player base.

Heladron

08-09-2012, 06:53 PM

Watching the guild renown get whittled away is kind of like watching the langoliers eating everything, you know the ones from that Stephen King book. Just watching that progress bar work its way back to the previous level and if you get in the way it will just eat you too. :eek:

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 06:59 PM

First, you should know the game is not balanced for lv 100 guilds (except epic elite but its for ELITE not casual players). And i dont see reason for you guys complain about the guild renown decay. Seems you want to get your guild lv up, ok, but id really wouldnt like to see all guilds at lv 100 next year. This is ridiculous. I really think the system is perfect as it is now and before you say im in a hardcore guild you should know im in a guild with 113 accounts (67 of those innactive, modified account size 46) and we are at lv 84 actually, we really took at least 3 months to make it from lv 83 to 84 and i see nothing wrong with it.

Let me preface this with I am not trying to incite an argument, I am truly trying to gather information: How is one or a billion level 100 guilds have any impact on game balance? I would like to hear the explanation, because I cannot think of anything that a level 100 guild has to do with it.

I don't want to see a billion level 100 guilds either (or any large number), it would detract significantly from those that have attained it.

However, I would love dearly to NOT have our accomplishments taken away from us. OR, allow us to work for a place our guild can call it's own without a mechanism in place to get rid of our casual players without harming our more active players.

Tshober

08-09-2012, 07:09 PM

And i dont see reason for you guys complain about the guild renown decay.

Since you obviously missed these earlier in the thread:

1. It's horribly anti-social.
2. It punishes guilds that help out new players.
3. It punishes guilds that have significant numbers of casual or social players in their membership.
4. It rewards guilds that kick out or never invite casual/social members and new players.
5. It punishes casual and social players for being what they are and makes them unwelcome in DDO.
6. No other part of DDO takes away your progress after you have earned it.
7. It drives casual and social players to other MMO's that have the good business sense to not punish them for being what they are.

I think that covers it. Hopefully I didn't miss any.

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 07:12 PM

I don't care about guild-level, except that airship-emenaties are based on guild level. I was fine with having to play for years before the actually useful ameneties become available(yeah, the NPC who gives you 1 point of AC isn't worth jack). It gave us something to strive for, a sense of accomplishment.

The new system means my guild will just spin its wheels at level 26 forever, making every single even remotiely worth spending the plat on amenety permenantly out of our reach. We can't maintain 27 on this system, how are we supposed to hit 50?

Again: level doesn't matter, ameneties matter. Make the ameneties leve-independant and you can do whatever the **** you want with level, I don't give a ****.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 07:12 PM

First, you should know the game is not balanced for lv 100 guilds (except epic elite but its for ELITE not casual players). And i dont see reason for you guys complain about the guild renown decay. Seems you want to get your guild lv up, ok, but id really wouldnt like to see all guilds at lv 100 next year. This is ridiculous. I really think the system is perfect as it is now and before you say im in a hardcore guild you should know im in a guild with 113 accounts (67 of those innactive, modified account size 46) and we are at lv 84 actually, we really took at least 3 months to make it from lv 83 to 84 and i see nothing wrong with it.

.... The game... is not balanced? For level 100 guilds?

I'm not even sure I understand what that's supposed to mean.

Have you not been reading the thread? There's lots of examples of exactly why people have a problem with the guild renown system. If you don't see why we have a problem with it, all of us... you need to go back and start the thread over again.

We'll wait.

Pape_27

08-09-2012, 07:12 PM

/signed to the op's suggestion

decay is a drag for the larger guilds and its time for it to be looked at. It negatively affects the gaming experience for all those who are stuck on the tread mill.

some things i would like to see:

- a lesser decay rate for larger guilds. simply put, the decay rate is onerous beyond the point of reason, and after a while, it really does start to become negative to the game experience.

- allow players the option of taking zero renown when they leave a guild. I left a smaller guild a while ago. I didnt want to take any of the renown i had earned while i was with them. But yet it I had to - there was no option to leave the 100% of the renown in pace. Allow me the choice to leave without taking any renown.

- allow guilds to remove players from the guild roster after then have been inactive for a period of six months without penalty.

_

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 07:19 PM

Or, allow those guilds to opt out of the horribly broken system altogether. Heck, give us a -50% guild level penalty to boot. Or even take our guild level completely.

Just allow us a place to have those in our guild we want or don't want without penalizing us for it.

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 07:19 PM

I won't settle for anything less than seeing the decay-system removed entirely. Its ludicrous and absolutely CRIPPLING to very small guilds.

Like they keep saying: no other aspect of DDO takes away your progress after you've made it.

Dirac

08-09-2012, 07:32 PM

yep, the system is so obviously broken there is no point arguing it. It is useful to keep bringing it up. One can only imagine that it was too far down the list to deal with. Now with the update out of the way, they should fix it.

As long as a guild is remotely active, they should not be losing renown.

babacadabra

08-09-2012, 07:34 PM

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 07:40 PM

<snip>

One can only imagine that it was too far down the list to deal with. Now with the update out of the way, they should fix it.

Ok, I get that, in their view, it is not a high priority. Not arguing that point.

Can we get the decay turned off or turned down way low until a solution is figured out and implemented?

Please? With sugar on top?

eris2323

08-09-2012, 07:44 PM

I think the guild renown thing is stupid. I agree with what someone said earlier about being able to fill a raid by having active members. I do not believe a guild should be punished for having a nice large sized community.

BTW my guild is level 91 and will most likely hit level 100, if we choose to go there; as we arent a huge guild and the decay isnt crushing us as badly as it hurts some. However i think that once we hit level 93 i will open up recruitment to invite casual players that i have known for years and like. There is no need to hit 100 as it is merely a bragging thing, but 93 does give a reward in a 5 percent shrine. It is a reasonable stopping point.

Perhaps the game should lessen the decay to get to 93, so that guilds can get amenities. raise the decay after that to current levels.

This way the braggards can get to 100 and impress a bunch of internet nerds by showing their uberness by getting to 100, and the more casual guilds will not miss out for being nice to others.

That sounds fair to me. Remove, or DRASTICALLY reduce decay, or change how it is applied entirely.

Give every guild the chance to get to level 93, the last set of buffs. That way, we truly DON'T suffer for allowing casual players in our guild; we have the same chance to get the same buffs. It won't just be the powergamers telling us 'Oh, don't worry, nothing matters after level 62 (which is an obvious falsehood, as there ARE things between 62-93 that are useful and nice to have)'

After that... The hardcore guilds can fight it out for level 100. Because, yes, from 93-100, there is absolutely no buffs, no ships, and no reason to care. And those power guilds can all fight it out to show us just how cool they are, with their level 100 guilds.

While the rest of go back to allowing casual players into our game, forming our own large guilds, and having fun with our friends.

Scratch our back Turbine... we'll scratch back, and help the newbies out... some of us enjoyed it.

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 07:45 PM

<snip>

However i think that once we hit level 93 i will open up recruitment to invite casual players that i have known for years and like.

Not sarcastic at all, truly: That is cool of you. I know that you will be enriching the gaming experience of those people by you doing that. A plus for all involved, including Turbine.

However, wouldn't it be really nice to be able to do that now without having to take it in the shorts decay wise? I would like to think so.

Pleae, please, fix the decay problem. Or turn it off until you can get to it.

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 07:48 PM

Scratch our back Turbine... we'll scratch back, and help the newbies out... some of us enjoyed it.

Some of us still enjoy it. Remember guild shroud training runs? And when we couldn't fill with guildies, we opened up to PUG's.

Now? Nary a guild member in sight that needs a leg up training wise..... we can't afford the renown decay....

eris2323

08-09-2012, 07:50 PM

Some of us still enjoy it. Remember guild shroud training runs? And when we couldn't fill with guildies, we opened up to PUG's.

Now? Nary a guild member in sight that needs a leg up training wise..... we can't afford the renown decay....

Ah, the good old days.... when everything was shiny, code mostly worked, and we had a super large guild, with friends from all over, at all hours of the day... and we could take them with us into the raids... teach them the ropes... show them how to play....

*sniff* brings a tear to my eye

If they removed the decay, we could go back to that... those friends we make while tr'ing, who happen to be totally new to the game, hanging in the harbor? We could invite some of those.

What a glorious, shiny world it would be!

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 09:16 PM

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 09:27 PM

Ah, the good old days.... when everything was shiny, code mostly worked, and we had a super large guild, with friends from all over, at all hours of the day... and we could take them with us into the raids... teach them the ropes... show them how to play....

*sniff* brings a tear to my eye

If they removed the decay, we could go back to that... those friends we make while tr'ing, who happen to be totally new to the game, hanging in the harbor? We could invite some of those.

What a glorious, shiny world it would be!

And you know what, nothing is stopping you doing that now. YOU (or your guild leader) is choosing to take guild levels as more important then running with friends. If your buffs are that important that is your call, not Turbines.

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 09:29 PM

Simply, they can't remove decay without removing buffs. If they don't then everyone will have all the buffs which is pointless. To paraphrase Syndrome, "if everyone is special then nobody is."

Scrap decay, scrap majority of the buffs (resists, stat buffs etc...) and make the guild "buffs" mostly cosmetic only. i.e at guild level X you can use guild uniform skins, guild weapon skins, guild mail, guild hall, guild monster manual etc...

The guild buffs are the reason the decay is needed. Remove them and there is a lot more flexibility on what can be done with guilds. Turbine dropped the ball when they intoruduced guild buffs without much thought.

Most servers used to have an Unguilded guild for players like that. I know Orien still does.

I respectfully disagree: There is no reason to not halt decay as is. So, the guilds get buffs. The two, in my mind, are not mutually exclusive, you can have one without the other. They exist outside of each other.

For guilds to work towards getting the buffs is fine. If every player on all the servers got buffs, so what? Pointless? I don't think so. It is another aspect of this game that enriches their gaming experience. That is a very valid point to have them, or at least allow guilds to put the work in to get them, without taking it back away from them.

Taking away something you either worked for or paid for IS pointless, as well as counterproductive to us enjoying this game.

As for scrapping the majority of buffs... no, very much a bad idea. Lower level toons and newbies who are learning to enjoy this game benefit greatly from the buffs. Don't add yet another reason for new people to get on DDO and not enjoy it so they don't stay.

Drakesan

08-09-2012, 09:33 PM

And you know what, nothing is stopping you doing that now. YOU (or your guild leader) is choosing to take guild levels as more important then running with friends. If your buffs are that important that is your call, not Turbines.

There very much is something that is stopping us from doing that: Our current guild members who have worked towards making it possible with choosing guild renown rewards over something else. If we did that, we are invalidating what they have accomplished, or sending the message that what they have worked for doesn't matter.

I won't be a party to that.

Just tonight, a member got on and wondered why we were still sliding backwards in renown when that particular toon he was on had earned over 1 million renown alone.

I didn't have a really good answer for him....

eris2323

08-09-2012, 09:52 PM

And you know what, nothing is stopping you doing that now. YOU (or your guild leader) is choosing to take guild levels as more important then running with friends. If your buffs are that important that is your call, not Turbines.

As we have already explained, we believe that the anti-social guild decay mechanism is harming the social, casual players of this game.

You might want to read back a little. We've gone over this.

Tshober

08-09-2012, 10:00 PM

And you know what, nothing is stopping you doing that now. YOU (or your guild leader) is choosing to take guild levels as more important then running with friends. If your buffs are that important that is your call, not Turbines.

The rules of guild leveling were set up by Turbine, not me. Those rules force all guild leaders to choose between having casual/social people in their guild or stagnating and never progressing. If they choose to stagnate, they harm the members of their guild that have worked hard to level the guild and eventually many of those members will leave because the guild has stopped leveling, further damaging the guild for the remaining members. If they choose to shun casual and social players (which is what most of them do), they harm DDO by making it into a place where casual and social players are not welcome. The rules that Turbine set, FORCE guild leaders into a lose/lose choice. Change those rules, by eliminating renown decay, and guild leaders would no longer be forced into such a lose/lose choice. They could have casual/social players and new players in their guild AND still continue to level up. Now tell me who that would harm and how?

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:02 PM

There very much is something that is stopping us from doing that: Our current guild members who have worked towards making it possible with choosing guild renown rewards over something else. If we did that, we are invalidating what they have accomplished, or sending the message that what they have worked for doesn't matter.

I won't be a party to that.

Just tonight, a member got on and wondered why we were still sliding backwards in renown when that particular toon he was on had earned over 1 million renown alone.

I didn't have a really good answer for him....

Yes, this is a huge problem - in order for large guilds to get past the renown wall, casual and social players have to go.

However, these casual and social players used to be not-so-casual players, and gave a lot to the guild as well.

Why should we be forced to kick out our friends who have helped us get where we are, solely so we can get past the guild wall?

I don't want to do that - but every day, I get the same questions... why aren't we gaining levels...

I hate to keep saying "Because Turbine doesn't care about our casual players, turbine doesn't care about our friends, and turbine doesn't care about YOU"

Even if it feels like it's true.

Powergamers always say 'but it's your choice to gain levels'.

Yeah, You know what. It's our choice to play the game. And to level our toons. It's our choice to pay money, or not pay money. My wife is VIP, and hasn't played the game in 3 weeks. She's not using any bandwidth, and is paying 15 dollars a month to stay in the game. So why should she be penalized? We're paying real cash to stay in the game, and she doesn't feel like playing every day. But every day, we pay renown for her. WHY?

Having our progress taken away from us, because of a broken, anti-social system just feels wrong.

Power gamers will never agree with those of us in large guilds, because, well, you're power gamers. You want to be number 1, and you don't want others to have the same shiny things you have, because, somehow, it makes you feel like less of an able player? Most of you have already made the decision to form small guilds (that can't even fill raids) - solely to gain levels. I don't like being forced to make that decision.

That's exclusive. That's a bad attitude. That's bad for the social game. Just because powergamers play 18 hours a day, and don't want anyone else to have the same benefit, is no reason to penalize large, social guilds.

And some of us are sick of it.

The line must be drawn here.

Somethng must change.

Maitland

08-09-2012, 10:07 PM

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:09 PM

I am in a fairly large guild..90+..I am a casual player right now due to work,crops,life in general.
Everyone in the guild knows what renoun they have to get to either break even or put alittle
extra sause in the pot..
Since I am sorta casual now,I log in play till I hit what I need then log off or if i find myself
with some extra time,I do more..it all about the numbers baby,all about the numbers.

Oh, so at some point, you're in danger of being booted too, so that your guild can level up.

If they want to hit level 100.

It gets worse for you guys. in about 3 levels.

Maitland

08-09-2012, 10:10 PM

Mauahahahaa..you dont know my guild..I wont get booted..
Like I said..figgure out the numbers,then hit it..its just math..

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 10:12 PM

I respectfully disagree: There is no reason to not halt decay as is. So, the guilds get buffs. The two, in my mind, are not mutually exclusive, you can have one without the other. They exist outside of each other.

For guilds to work towards getting the buffs is fine. If every player on all the servers got buffs, so what? Pointless? I don't think so. It is another aspect of this game that enriches their gaming experience. That is a very valid point to have them, or at least allow guilds to put the work in to get them, without taking it back away from them.

Taking away something you either worked for or paid for IS pointless, as well as counterproductive to us enjoying this game.

As for scrapping the majority of buffs... no, very much a bad idea. Lower level toons and newbies who are learning to enjoy this game benefit greatly from the buffs. Don't add yet another reason for new people to get on DDO and not enjoy it so they don't stay.

The buffs make it harder for new players, not easier. For example, if everyone is running around with 30 point resists at low levels Devs will up damage by 30 to compensate. New player fresh of the boat not in a guild yet will get slaughtered.
If no one can access 30 point resists at that level as it used to be everyone is on a levelish playing field. If everyone has buffs, the game will be set to allow for that. The ones that are screwed are the new players.

There very much is something that is stopping us from doing that: Our current guild members who have worked towards making it possible with choosing guild renown rewards over something else. If we did that, we are invalidating what they have accomplished, or sending the message that what they have worked for doesn't matter.

I won't be a party to that.

Just tonight, a member got on and wondered why we were still sliding backwards in renown when that particular toon he was on had earned over 1 million renown alone.

I didn't have a really good answer for him....

I am not saying remove guild rewards, I am saying remove the buff portion of them. Do that and there is no reason for decay and everyone will get to the top eventually.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:13 PM

Mauahahahaa..you dont know my guild..I wont get booted..
Like I said..figgure out the numbers,then hit it..its just math..

Could be... we'll see...

I guess it all depends on how casual you get.

And how casual the rest of your players get.

And then we'll see if the wall hits, and you'll see another drop, as people lose the will to fight that decay, for other people, who aren't playing.

It's not just a matter of 'figuring out the numbers'. If you have too many casual players, and not enough active players, the math is unbeatable. It wins. You will have to kick people, or stagnate.

Which admittedly does all depend on how many actives vs casuals you have; but it's a real wall, and it's hurting real players... Casual players.

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 10:18 PM

As we have already explained, we believe that the anti-social guild decay mechanism is harming the social, casual players of this game.

You might want to read back a little. We've gone over this.

You did, but again it is the players choosing guild level over friendship not Turbine. If the setup was as you got higher DDO automatically booted the least active guild members I would agree with you but it's not. It's a human choice, not automatic. you choose to do it that way, don't blame Turbine. The buffs are very easy to do without but they obviously mean more to you then your friends.

I will agree however the guild buff system leads to anti-social guild behavour.

HungarianRhapsody

08-09-2012, 10:20 PM

Yes, this is a huge problem - in order for large guilds to get past the renown wall, casual and social players have to go.

Since most large guilds can already get everything that has a significant in-game benefit before they hit their renown wall (which will be a different level for every guild), I don't see that as a problem.

Maitland

08-09-2012, 10:20 PM

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:26 PM

You did, but again it is the players choosing guild level over friendship not Turbine. If the setup was as you got higher DDO automatically booted the least active guild members I would agree with you but it's not. It's a human choice, not automatic. you choose to do it that way, don't blame Turbine. The buffs are very easy to do without but they obviously mean more to you then your friends.

I will agree however the guild buff system leads to anti-social guild behavour.

Actually, I *DO* blame Turbine. Before decay, we were able to have a large, social, friendly guild, that could invite a lot of newbies, and we'd teach them the ropes.

Sometimes they'd stay.

Sometimes they wouldn't.

Either way, we all had fun.

Now we have to worry that every time we invite someone, if they don't play, or quit the game, we immediately owe 650x30 days worth of renown. Just for trying to allow a newbie to join our guild. Invite 10 newbies? Oh my.

I'm not playing DDO so I can micromanage some stupid guild decay system, and play stupid math games daily. I'm not playing it so I can tell people that the reason we stagnate is because we have casual players, and Turbine hates casual players.

I'm playing it to have fun.

Guild renown decay is ruining that fun. It's causing a problem, and it looks like it's not a small problem. Every day, more and more people pipe up about it.

I don't see how buffs are such a big 'zomg you must be a super cool uber active game to get these buffs' deal, either. Most times, if you don't have the buffs, and you're pugging it, someone else will, and you can get a ship invite. So big deal.

The guild decay system is ruining the fun for many players. Yes, it's ruining the game for me, in particular. But I'm not alone.

I really, still don't see how it hurts these powergamer level 100 guilds to allow our large, social and casual guild to grow.

Except for the fact that they not only want bragging rights, they want to be the only ones with the biggest ships, the MOST buffs, and not have to spend turbine points?

How is my game and guild hurting you in ANY way? It's not. Unless it makes you feel like somehow less of a man to see a large guild get to high levels, and not have to worry about inviting new players?

Tshober

08-09-2012, 10:27 PM

I am in a fairly large guild..90+..I am a casual player right now due to work,crops,life in general.
Everyone in the guild knows what renoun they have to get to either break even or put alittle
extra sause in the pot..
Since I am sorta casual now,I log in play till I hit what I need then log off or if i find myself
with some extra time,I do more..it all about the numbers baby,all about the numbers.

Would you or your guild members be harmed if renown decay were eliminated and all guilds could eventually make it to the same level as yours? If so, how exactly? Does it bother you that casual and social players can level up their characters to be the same level as yours? Just curious.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:29 PM

Eris..you are right..We boot the inactive members..but our guild is still big..
Might be different in a few levels,who knows?
But what i do know is this..if you cant log on at least once a day or go on a
renoun bender every few days to make up for the renoun loss for the times when
your not on,how are yoiu helping the guild?

SO, right there... your large guild DOES boot inactives.

So that time in your life when you're just too tired because you had to work a 60 hour week for the last 2 months... you're now in danger of being kicked out of your level 90+ guild, because inactives are hurting the players that are left.

So, how much renown have you put in? And will you think it is fair if you DO get kicked due to being too casual?

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:31 PM

Since most large guilds can already get everything that has a significant in-game benefit before they hit their renown wall (which will be a different level for every guild), I don't see that as a problem.

"most" - so, some large guilds won't even reach that 'bare level of buffs' that you consider worth it- by your own words

"significant" - a loaded word - i consider the highest level ship significant, and the level 93 major exp boost significant. do you?

So you admit that some people are never going to be able to get certain buffs they might want, solely because they are a large, casual guild.

Thanks. Proves my point nicely.

Maitland

08-09-2012, 10:37 PM

Would you or your guild members be harmed if renown decay were eliminated and all guilds could eventually make it to the same level as yours? If so, how exactly? Does it bother you that casual and social players can level up their characters to be the same level as yours? Just curious.

Hey Tshober.
No..our guild wouldnt be harmed in any way at all if all the guild were the same level.
And,no,it doesnt bother me if social players level up the same as mine.I play with casual
toons all the time that are my level.
Just me personally,but i wouldnt want every tom,dik or harry to join our guild.I like it just the way it is now.
Hell,when I knew my time was going to be limited,I offered to leave the guild.
They told me not to be so foolish.
And,honestly,even if i was guildless..it wouldnt not affect my game play at all..
I only play a game man..just a game..

Maitland

08-09-2012, 10:38 PM

Hi again Eris..
I think my reply to Toser guy answers your question.
Sorry for spelling your name wrong T.. :(

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:41 PM

Hi again Eris..
I think my reply to Toser guy answers your question.
Sorry for spelling your name wrong T.. :(

Well, it does, I guess.

Personally, I'd be annoyed that all the times I chose renown over treasure, it was just thrown out the window because the system forced your large guild to kick you to gain levels, since they wanted to gain levels.

Some of us do like big guilds.

We like to log in and see who's around.

We want to be able to fill raids, easily. With our friends.

*WE* want a large guild.

I love it when someone logs in and shouts out 'guild shroud, who wants to come' - and it fills. quickly. Without having to pug it.

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 10:48 PM

Actually, I *DO* blame Turbine. Before decay, we were able to have a large, social, friendly guild, that could invite a lot of newbies, and we'd teach them the ropes.
The only thing that is stopping that happening now is you. There is no autoboot/autocap in the DDO Guild system.

Either way, we all had fun.
I am going to bold this, mark it in red and call it Point 1.

Now we have to worry that every time we invite someone, if they don't play, or quit the game, we immediately owe 650x30 days worth of renown. Just for trying to allow a newbie to join our guild. Invite 10 newbies? Oh my.
See Point 1. If the old way was fun and you enjoyed it, why not go back to it and not worry about what level your guild is.

I'm not playing DDO so I can micromanage some stupid guild decay system, and play stupid math games daily. I'm not playing it so I can tell people that the reason we stagnate is because we have casual players, and Turbine hates casual players.
Then don't micromanage. Go back to Point 1.

I'm playing it to have fun.
Point 1. Do what is fun then and ignore what isn't.

Guild renown decay is ruining that fun. It's causing a problem, and it looks like it's not a small problem. Every day, more and more people pipe up about it.
Don't worry about guild level then and focus on Point 1.

I don't see how buffs are such a big 'zomg you must be a super cool uber active game to get these buffs' deal, either. Most times, if you don't have the buffs, and you're pugging it, someone else will, and you can get a ship invite. So big deal.
If they are not that important, why are you stressing so much about getting them instead of focusing on Point 1?

The guild decay system is ruining the fun for many players. Yes, it's ruining the game for me, in particular. But I'm not alone.
Have to say it again, you are letting it ruin the game. If every time you log on you grind for a specific item say Ring of Spell Storing, and it never drops. The grind is ruining the enjoyment and you start to hate it. Would you keep grinding or go back to running quests you enjoy?

I really, still don't see how it hurts these powergamer level 100 guilds to allow our large, social and casual guild to grow.
It doesn't. It hurts the game to have all players buffed to the hilt because then the game has to get levelled to match.

Except for the fact that they not only want bragging rights, they want to be the only ones with the biggest ships, the MOST buffs, and not have to spend turbine points?
How is my game and guild hurting you in ANY way? It's not. Unless it makes you feel like somehow less of a man to see a large guild get to high levels, and not have to worry about inviting new players?
I'm not in a big guild. I inherited a level 40ish guild some time ago, not even sure what exact level it is and it hasn't gained a level in god knows how long. It's handy for guild vendors and guild only items though.

Thorzian

08-09-2012, 10:48 PM

The major guild rewards end at guild level 63, which is very sustainable for a casual guild.

wrong. the big ship comes at 80 for plat, 85 for diamonds. trust me that number has been firmly implanted on my brain as our 43 member guild struggles like mad to get past 77.

the big ships ARE major guild rewards

Tshober

08-09-2012, 10:51 PM

Since most large guilds can already get everything that has a significant in-game benefit before they hit their renown wall (which will be a different level for every guild), I don't see that as a problem.

I believe that is probably how the devs thought people would see it when they came up with renown decay. But human nature is such that the logical value of guild levels is irrelevent. It is the perceived value of those levels that matters. And for the vast majority of DDO players, the perceived value of guild levels is more than adequate to justify shunning casual and social players. And that is why there is a problem. Most non-casual, and even some casual, players will leave a guild that stops leveling up. That's just how it is. Every leader of a moderate sized or larger guild knows that. So they are forced to conform and shun the casual and social players because the alternative is to stagnate and start losing members who will jump to higher level guilds or to guilds they think will be able to continue leveling (in other words to guilds that shun causal/social players).

*IF* nearly everyone believed that leveling up your guild was unimportant and had very little value, then there would be no problem. But that is just not the case in the reality of DDO.

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 10:52 PM

Well, it does, I guess.

Personally, I'd be annoyed that all the times I chose renown over treasure, it was just thrown out the window because the system forced your large guild to kick you to gain levels, since they wanted to gain levels.

Some of us do like big guilds.

We like to log in and see who's around.

We want to be able to fill raids, easily. With our friends.

*WE* want a large guild.

I love it when someone logs in and shouts out 'guild shroud, who wants to come' - and it fills. quickly. Without having to pug it.

But apperently you like guild levels and guild buffs more?

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:53 PM

The only thing that is stopping that happening now is you. There is no autoboot/autocap in the DDO Guild system.

No - the only thing stopping that is the guild renown system.

I have identified what is causing me to not enjoy my time in the game. Your suggestions do not work for me. They make no sense.

(to me)

You basically are just saying 'give up - give up your buffs, and stop caring.'

I say thee nay.

I do not agree. And I don't agree this system works in any form at all, and I do believe it harming the social part of the game. And specifically harming the casual and newbie players.

You telling me to give up and not care about my guild makes as much sense to me, as saying 'give up and don't care about your character - who cares if you ever level'

If I never leveled my character, I'd just leave. That's why I TR. I want a sense of GETTING SOMEWHERE. DOING SOMETHING. HAVING MY ACTIONS MATTER. Getting 0 exp in the old epic quests made no sense for me - it felt like a waste of time.

It is nice that you don't care about guild levels.

I do. And my guildies do.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:54 PM

But apperently you like guild levels and guild buffs more?

I want to be part of something that is growing, not something that is stagnant, and stuck in the same spot for ever. Is that so hard to understand?

It's basic human nature.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 10:56 PM

I believe that is probably how the devs thought people would see it when they came up with renown decay. But human nature is such that the logical value of guild levels is irrelevent. It is the perceived value of those levels that matters. And for the vast majority of DDO players, the perceived value of guild levels is more than adequate to justify shunning casual and social players. And that is why there is a problem. Most non-casual, and even some casual, players will leave a guild that stops leveling up. That's just how it is. Every leader of a moderate sized or larger guild knows that. So they are forced to conform and shun the casual and social players because the alternative is to stagnate and start losing members who will jump to higher level guilds or to guilds they think will be able to continue leveling (in other words to guilds that shun causal/social players).

*IF* nearly everyone believed that leveling up your guild was unimportant and had very little value, then there would be no problem. But that is just not the case in the reality of DDO.

This deserves to be quoted again. So that it's on the next page of this very long forum post, and it has more chance of being read. Twice.

Maybe some day, more will understand this.

Machination

08-09-2012, 10:59 PM

Here is a spreadsheet you can use if you don't want to use a slide rule every time:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-VXRKQ0mutmQmJybVdpYk56QmM

Enter your guild level
Enter your "modified guild account size"

you can play around on the different columns to see how it changes if you make your guild smaller/large or attain higher levels.......

Hi All,

Would just like to give a heads-up on the guild renown calculations, there are some serious issues reguarding this renown thing. The guild I'm in is working their fingers to the bone, trying to keep this renown thing in check but it is literally impossible, we worked for weeks just to get our Guild from level 60 to 61, we finally did it last night and I log on today to see we are basically back where we started.

Could you you please put a better explaination of renown decay and how it is calculated on the news part of the log in.

Also do you think it could be changed that at least when a Guild obtains a level that we at least keep the level that some guilds due to low numbers, account size ect. struggle to obtain. These Guilds are having the rug pulled from under them and it is not a very nice feeling.

It's not an easy thing for some Guilds as they have many people in different time zones, if it were possible to get everyone on at the same time, Guild leveling might not be that bad, but due to the different times there may be only 12 people on from one area and that may be the time the renown is calculated and the next time there maybe onlt 6 people on and thus a losing battle to gain it back.

It has to be a better way of doing this renown thing, either let us keep the levels we struggle to get or get rid of decay all together.

It's got to be a better way, this is the very reason why it is so hard for decent Guilds to keep people. Who wants to be in a guild that is 1 level today and log in the next day and your back where you started, they move on and this in turn hurts that Guild even more with the decay. it's not that they are not trying it's just too much of a struggle for some Guilds. Thus NO FUN ANY MORE !!!!!!

Also Guilds may get people to join but in the same day or mere hours later they leave, now them leaving the Guild and XP they get doesn't hurt then Guild but their leaving stays with the Guild for 2 weeks as mod account size and thus gets put into the calculation, this isn't right and is very open to abuse from people who may hold a grudge against a previous Guild, and use this action to bring a Guild down.

The DEVS are doing all this stupid stuff with companions, and accessories and well.... it isn't a bad thing but that stuff can always be done later as far as I'm concerned, put that much needed time into fixin/re-vamping a truely broken system and bring some fun back into making a Guild.

if it isn't something done about this the Idea of the Guild will be a memory and instead of having many guilds to choose from there will be only a dozen or so because people are not going to join Guilds that everyday is a struggle to ontain something.

Cheers! WhiteWolf

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 10:59 PM

I want to be part of something that is growing, not something that is stagnant, and stuck in the same spot for ever. Is that so hard to understand?

It's basic human nature.

So is friendship and community. You choose a digital number over these two though.

Maitland

08-09-2012, 11:00 PM

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:00 PM

So is friendship and community. You choose a digital number over 2 though.

Please read Tshobers post above.

It doesn't sound like you really 'got it'

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:02 PM

Here is a spreadsheet you can use if you don't want to use a slide rule every time:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-VXRKQ0mutmVFV1Z0d3YkRWcHc

Enter your guild level
Enter your "modified guild account size"

you can play around on the different columns to see how it changes if you make your guild smaller/large or attain higher levels.......

But I'm here to play DDO, not play silly spreadsheet games. If I have to touch a spreadsheet, I expect to get paid.

Since I'm not getting paid, I'd rather play the game, instead of playing spreadsheet games, and math games.

I'm sure some will find that helpful.

I've already created a guild website; done the math... created my own spreadsheet to track our members... all kinds of things that Turbine doesn't provide us.

Can I get back to playing the game yet?

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 11:03 PM

No - the only thing stopping that is the guild renown system.

I have identified what is causing me to not enjoy my time in the game. Your suggestions do not work for me. They make no sense.

/Shrug
Up to you. Continue not enjoying the game and not running with friends then.

That makes no sense to me.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:04 PM

Before i crash to my bed,I want to leave on this note..
I stay in my guild because of the friends I have made.
If our guild was 10 or 100,it doesnt matter to me.
I stay for the friends not the buffs.
G'night all,sweet dreams.

It is nice to have that feeling - I play with my friends too.

The harsh part is when your guild decides it really, really, really wants to hit level 100.

And they figure you, as a casual player are holding them back - then it'll be time for you to find a new guild. And new friends. Like it or not.

I hope it doesn't happen to you... Heck, obviously, I hope it doesn't happen to ANYONE, with the amount I've posted on this subject.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:06 PM

/Shrug
Up to you. Continue not enjoying the game and not running with friends then.

That makes no sense to me.

I enjoy the game, I hate the guild renown system. I, as a guild leader, have to deal with the questions about renown every day. I have to watch as people leave to try to find a guild that has a chance of gaining levels.

I have to hold the votes that decide how our guild goes in the future.

The players that leave, go to other guilds that are also power-gamer guilds. Not Casual guilds.

Why is there no home for the casuals?

Why must there be a risk of losing your guild if you go casual?

*THAT* makes no sense to me.

Machination

08-09-2012, 11:06 PM

The OP asked for calculation, just trying to helpi

But I'm here to play DDO, not play silly spreadsheet games. If I have to touch a spreadsheet, I expect to get paid.

Since I'm not getting paid, I'd rather play the game, instead of playing spreadsheet games, and math games.

I'm sure some will find that helpful.

I've already created a guild website; done the math... created my own spreadsheet to track our members... all kinds of things that Turbine doesn't provide us.

Can I get back to playing the game yet?

HungarianRhapsody

08-09-2012, 11:07 PM

"most" - so, some large guilds won't even reach that 'bare level of buffs' that you consider worth it- by your own words

"significant" - a loaded word - i consider the highest level ship significant, and the level 93 major exp boost significant. do you?

So you admit that some people are never going to be able to get certain buffs they might want, solely because they are a large, casual guild.

Thanks. Proves my point nicely.

I don't consider the level 93 XP boost significant. It's 5% instead of 4%. Not significant. The level 55 boat can get every buff that the highest level boat can get. Not significant.

"bare level of buffs" is not my own words. Please quote correctly if you're going to quote.

I'll also admit that there are some things in real life that I'm never going to be able to get. And that's okay too.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:08 PM

The OP asked for calculation, just trying to helpi

Too true - I sometimes forget others haven't created their own tools, like I had to.

My bad.

It *IS* helpful.

Machination

08-09-2012, 11:08 PM

Yes and thank you for sharing

Too true - I sometimes forget others haven't created their own tools, like I had to.

My bad.

It *IS* helpful.

Tshober

08-09-2012, 11:08 PM

So is friendship and community. You choose a digital number over these two though.

You are missing the entire point of our posts. Why must there be such a choice? Eliminate renown decay and there would be no need to choose!!!! You could have both and it would harm no one!

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 11:09 PM

Please read Tshobers post above.

It doesn't sound like you really 'got it'

Oh I get it. You are trying to blame Turbine for a choice your making. You just don;t accept it si your choice.

Try Maitland's below. That is how guilds should be.

Before i crash to my bed,I want to leave on this note..
I stay in my guild because of the friends I have made.
If our guild was 10 or 100,it doesnt matter to me.
I stay for the friends not the buffs.
G'night all,sweet dreams.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:11 PM

I don't consider the level 93 XP boost significant. It's 5% instead of 4%. Not significant. The level 55 boat can get every buff that the highest level boat can get. Not significant.

"bare level of buffs" is not my own words. Please quote correctly if you're going to quote.

I'll also admit that there are some things in real life that I'm never going to be able to get. And that's okay too.

SO, we have a disagreement about which buffs are important. They aren't important to you, they ARE important to me.

So is gaining levels.

I still fail to see how large, casual social guilds are in any way hurting all the power-gamers out there who want to be a level 100 guild.

If by your own admission, that all guilds will get all the buffs you care about, then why shouldn't they be able to go higher? What magic wand was waved that decided that was it. That's as far as you can go? What are they taking away from you?

Telling people to 'just settle for a lower guild level' in my eyes, is not a solution to this problem, which is affecting the whole game, and making it unfriendly towards new and casual players.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:13 PM

Oh I get it. You are trying to blame Turbine for a choice your making. You just don;t accept it si your choice.

Try Maitland's below. That is how guilds should be.

You're not getting it.

Every large guild leader faces the same problems.

We all have to make the decision.

If we're all forced to lose our casuals, where will they go?

Certainly not to the power gamers - they won't allow people in their guilds - heck, they keep their raid channels SECRET so people won't have a clue about them.

Too elitist for me.

YOur view of a guild may differ from what my view of a guild is, but how is that hurting you?

It's not.

That's the thing. It hurts no one.

While the system as we have it now, hurts new and casual players.

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 11:17 PM

You are missing the entire point of our posts. Why must there be such a choice? Eliminate renown decay and there would be no need to choose!!!! You could have both and it would harm no one!

No need to choose? Seriously?
Make one race with all the bonuses of the others combined so there is no need to choose.
Make one class with all the abilities of the others combined so there is no need to choose.
Make one weapon with all the attributes of the others so there is no need to choose.
Make one armour with all the bonuses of the others so there is no need to choose.
Make one quest with all same XP & mobs so there is no need to choose.

On a side note, removing the the buffs and guild renown would have exactly the same effect.

HungarianRhapsody

08-09-2012, 11:19 PM

You are missing the entire point of our posts. Why must there be such a choice? Eliminate renown decay and there would be no need to choose!!!! You could have both and it would harm no one!

You could have both, but you would then run out of anything that you could strive for as a guild.

If a single person can level a guild up to 100 without any exploits, then the ONLY thing stopping a large guild from leveling to 100 as a group is the desire to do so.

If you don't want to level your guild to 100, that's fine. I just don't see why anyone should just hand you that guild level if you're not actually interested in getting it for yourself.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:24 PM

You could have both, but you would then run out of anything that you could strive for as a guild.

If a single person can level a guild up to 100 without any exploits, then the ONLY thing stopping a large guild from leveling to 100 as a group is the desire to do so.

If you don't want to level your guild to 100, that's fine. I just don't see why anyone should just hand you that guild level if you're not actually interested in getting it for yourself.

There has been many suggestions as to help that problem. How about this.

Add another 100 guild levels.

Remove decay from all levels 1-100.

Don't add any buffs for level 101-200.

Charge even more renown decay once you hit level 101, with a hard cap of 100 so you can't slide back.

Power gamers can feel all fuzzy about their high numbers.

Large casual guilds can rest easy knowing they have all the advantages, except the braggin rights of a high number.

Problem solved.

Also, those who did level 1-100 by themselves DID use n almost exploit, in my eyes. They abused the build your guild event by constantly rerolling toons to a single low level where the bonus was, then deleted and rerolled.

That's just someone gaming the system, and taking advantage of a one time event.

I'd like to see that happen now. LEvel to 100 by yourself. Without having the bonuses from build your guild.

IT might still be do-able - but it's not going to be as quick or as easy as they made it seem when they abused the build your guild event.

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 11:30 PM

I still fail to see how large, casual social guilds are in any way hurting all the power-gamers out there who want to be a level 100 guild.

You don;t see the problem with every player runnign around with undispellable 30 point resists, stat buffs, DC buffs, damage buffs, XP buffs, healing amp buffs etc...

You really don't think that would be be bad for the game?

Well, when I say everyone I mean everyone bar the new player who has just logged in for the first time only to be monstered by a game scaled to the above buffs.

eris2323

08-09-2012, 11:32 PM

You don;t see the problem with every player runnign around with undispellable 30 point resists, stat buffs, DC buffs, damage buffs, XP buffs, healing amp buffs etc...

You really don't think that would be be bad for the game?

Well, when I say everyone I mean everyone bar the new player who has just logged in for the first time only to be monstered by a game scaled to the above buffs.

By everyones admission, every large casual social guild has those already. They're all easily obtainable, remember? For any guild.

If the renown system and decay system were re-evaluated, those same players who have just logged in will find it MUCH easier to find a guild.

So what's the problem?

Hows it hurting you?

Tshober

08-09-2012, 11:38 PM

You could have both, but you would then run out of anything that you could strive for as a guild.

If a single person can level a guild up to 100 without any exploits, then the ONLY thing stopping a large guild from leveling to 100 as a group is the desire to do so.

If you don't want to level your guild to 100, that's fine. I just don't see why anyone should just hand you that guild level if you're not actually interested in getting it for yourself.

What's stopping a large guild with casual and social members from leveling to 100 is renown decay. Renown decay is a mathematical formula that ensures that you can NEVER level up if your average member does not generate a certain amount of renown every day. It does not matter how much you want to level up. You simply can't unless all of your members, taken as a whole, earn a certain amount or renown every day. Casual and social players will never earn that amount of renown each day because they are casual and social players. So the only way a guild can level up to the highest levels is to rid themselves of most (or all) of those players. That is the problem and that is why renown decay is so horribly anti-social.

There are simple ways to restructure the guild leveling system so that renown decay is not needed. I have proposed one such plan here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385226

I am sure our devs could come up with even better options.

HungarianRhapsody

08-09-2012, 11:38 PM

There has been many suggestions as to help that problem. How about this.

Add another 100 guild levels.

Remove decay from all levels 1-100.

Don't add any buffs for level 101-200.

Charge even more renown decay once you hit level 101, with a hard cap of 100 so you can't slide back.

Power gamers can feel all fuzzy about their high numbers.

Large casual guilds can rest easy knowing they have all the advantages, except the braggin rights of a high number.

Problem solved.

You seem very confused about what a power gamer is. A power gamer would race to 100 and then completely ignore guild renown forever after.

Also, those who did level 1-100 by themselves DID use n almost exploit, in my eyes. They abused the build your guild event by constantly rerolling toons to a single low level where the bonus was, then deleted and rerolled.

That's just someone gaming the system, and taking advantage of a one time event.

If it were an exploit, then Turbine folks would have said, "HAY! THAT IS AN EXPLOIT! BAD PLAYERS!!1!" instead of "Congratualtions" when the players posted their achievements.

You might also think that running through Korthos, Harbor and Marketplace quests with 30 resists on every element is an exploit (and I'd have more sympathy on that opinion than on your opinion of the Build Your Guild event), but the fact is, that's the way the rules are written. If you're following the rules, that's not exploiting. It might be something that you find distasteful, but it's not an exploit.

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 11:44 PM

You don;t see the problem with every player runnign around with undispellable 30 point resists, stat buffs, DC buffs, damage buffs, XP buffs, healing amp buffs etc...

If the game makes those buffs available then by default they are, after a fashion, available to all players. All this stupid renown-decay does is make the UNAVAILABLE to casual players(For example, if the decay system is left in place, I will never, ever, ever have access to these buffs).

Sure, the casual guilds will have to work HARDER to get them, but it would be within their grasp. For my guild its an imposibility, we don't play often enough to maintain level 27. Forget reaching a level where we can get a useful buff.

Meanwhile, need it be said that DDO is NOT a PVP game? How, in any way, shape, or form, does another player's buffs impact you?

I've never had these buggs, and theres folks walking around with them right now. It has NEVER had any impact AT ALL on me. Ever. So why does it hurt you the power-gamer if I, the casual gamer, also have access to these buffs?

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 11:45 PM

By everyones admission, every large casual social guild has those already. They're all easily obtainable, remember? For any guild.

If the renown system and decay system were re-evaluated, those same players who have just logged in will find it MUCH easier to find a guild.

Remove buffs & renown and they will find it just as easy without the game having to be scaled for ludicrous buffs.

So what's the problem?

Hows it hurting you?

Because I don't want a game scaled to those buffs. I don't want to have to run back to my ship every hour to put my character on scale for quests.

Assuming level 1 character are shrugging of the first 30 points of fire damage makes a mockery of the game.

Tshober

08-09-2012, 11:45 PM

You don;t see the problem with every player runnign around with undispellable 30 point resists, stat buffs, DC buffs, damage buffs, XP buffs, healing amp buffs etc...

You really don't think that would be be bad for the game?

Well, when I say everyone I mean everyone bar the new player who has just logged in for the first time only to be monstered by a game scaled to the above buffs.

Everyone can already get those buffs. Just ask for a ship invite in general chat. If I see your request, you will get the buffs. The buffs are already readily available to everyone who knows what an airship is. Any harm that is going to do has already been done.

HungarianRhapsody

08-09-2012, 11:45 PM

What's stopping a large guild with casual and social members from leveling to 100 is renown decay. Renown decay is a mathematical formula that ensures that you can NEVER level up if your average member does not generate a certain amount of renown every day.

I quite understand that.

If the average member decides that they don't want to generate more renown than their decay costs, that's their choice.

It's not very hard to generate 1000 renown per day with even a single capped character. Epic quests give out tons and tons of renown. You could easily pay your own renown cost at any guild level with just a couple of hours on a Saturday *if you choose to do so*.

Again, if you choose not to do so, that's fine too. It's your choice.

HunterjWizzard

08-09-2012, 11:49 PM

I quite understand that.

If the average member decides that they don't want to generate more renown than their decay costs, that's their choice.

It's not very hard to generate 1000 renown per day with even a single capped character. Epic quests give out tons and tons of renown. You could easily pay your own renown cost at any guild level with just a couple of hours on a Saturday *if you choose to do so*.

Again, if you choose not to do so, that's fine too. It's your choice.

How about how badly itspunishing those of us with small guilds? I often go weeks or months without playing, so does the only other person in my guild. We formed our own guild specifically BECAUSE we kept getting booted from other guilds due to inactivity.

Thanks to renown decay, we can't maintain even 27, let alone a level that would allow us to buy useful buffs.

Tshober

08-09-2012, 11:51 PM

I quite understand that.

If the average member decides that they don't want to generate more renown than their decay costs, that's their choice.

It's not very hard to generate 1000 renown per day with even a single capped character. Epic quests give out tons and tons of renown. You could easily pay your own renown cost at any guild level with just a couple of hours on a Saturday *if you choose to do so*.

Again, if you choose not to do so, that's fine too. It's your choice.

Again, Casual and social players will never earn that amount of renown each day because they are casual and social players. So the only way a guild can level up to the highest levels is to rid themselves of most (or all) of those players. That is the problem and that is why renown decay is so horribly anti-social.

HungarianRhapsody

08-09-2012, 11:53 PM

How about how badly itspunishing those of us with small guilds? I often go weeks or months without playing, so does the only other person in my guild. We formed our own guild specifically BECAUSE we kept getting booted from other guilds due to inactivity.

Thanks to renown decay, we can't maintain even 27, let alone a level that would allow us to buy useful buffs.

You mentioned before that casual guilds can get those same bonuses, but that they would just have to work harder.

Well, if they work harder, then they won't be casual any more, right? Problem solved.

HungarianRhapsody

08-09-2012, 11:54 PM

Again, Casual and social players will never earn that amount of renown each day because they are casual and social players. So the only way a guild can level up to the highest levels is to rid themselves of most (or all) of those players. That is the problem and that is why renown decay is so horribly anti-social.

Or they could just ask for a ship invite. Or just not have those ship buffs.

The gear that they don't have and the quest knowledge that they don't have is going to make a *much* bigger difference than the ship buffs.

Personally, I'd prefer to see all of the ship buffs eliminated entirely so that people would just get into the quest instead of spending 5 minutes after every single quest to refresh the buffs that they're addicted to.

Falco_Easts

08-09-2012, 11:55 PM

Everyone can already get those buffs. Just ask for a ship invite in general chat. If I see your request, you will get the buffs. The buffs are already readily available to everyone who knows what an airship is. Any harm that is going to do has already been done.

Well if everyone can get them, why do you need your guild to have them? Just ask for a ship invite in general chat.

They haven't scaled the game to badly for those buffs, yet. But if everyone is using them they will either have to scale the game or remove them.

Tshober

08-10-2012, 12:02 AM

Well if everyone can get them, why do you need your guild to have them? Just ask for a ship invite in general chat.

They haven't scaled the game to badly for those buffs, yet. But if everyone is using them they will either have to scale the game or remove them.

What level is your guild, Falco? Because the statements you make strike me as those someone might make if they had never really had to deal with any actual renown decay? How much decay does your guild incur each day? Mine takes about 200K renown decay every day. We are level 60.

HunterjWizzard

08-10-2012, 12:02 AM

You mentioned before that casual guilds can get those same bonuses, but that they would just have to work harder.

Well, if they work harder, then they won't be casual any more, right? Problem solved.

I swear, I almost rage-quite right there after reading that. I don't thing any single post so perfectly exemplifies the problem, here:

Hardcore gamers hate casual gamers for not being hardcore gamers.

Basically, suporters of the decay system are the kind of selfish, arogant, egotistical individuals who cannot stand someone else having fun. This is the sort of person for whom World of Warcraft was tailor-made.

Basically, players like HungarianRhapsody don't want me to have ship buffs because I don't play as much as him.

I think we've found the root of it.

HungarianRhapsody

08-10-2012, 12:04 AM

Tshober

08-10-2012, 12:08 AM

Barazon

08-10-2012, 12:09 AM

HungarianRhapsody

08-10-2012, 12:10 AM

No need to do that because XP never decays.

But a casual player will never be able to get completionist because completionist does decay.

And none of us wants Turbine to stop adding classes forever, so the only alternative is to lower XP requirements to the point where casual players can actually get that feat.

Falco_Easts

08-10-2012, 12:12 AM

What level is your guild, Falco? Because the statements you make strike me as those someone might make if they had never really had to deal with any actual renown decay? How much decay does your guild incur each day? Mine takes about 200K renown decay every day. We are level 60.

Guild level is ~40ish. Not sure exactly. I am a casual player I what I earn keeps it the same so not gaining or declining. Couldn;t tell you what the decay is because I don't really care enough about guild level to track it.

Tshober

08-10-2012, 12:16 AM

Personally, I'd prefer to see all of the ship buffs eliminated entirely so that people would just get into the quest instead of spending 5 minutes after every single quest to refresh the buffs that they're addicted to.

I like the ship buffs. But if it came to a choice of either losing the ship buffs or being forced to keep renown decay, I would reluctantly choose to lose the ship buffs. Renown decay is so horribly anti-social and is doing such harm to DDO that it just has to go. Fortunately there are other options and so such a choice should not be necessary.

HunterjWizzard

08-10-2012, 12:21 AM

I just realized that casual and social players will never be able to get the Completionist feat either. Even if they do eventually play enough to get a life in every class, Turbine will have added more classes by then, so they'll never be able to catch up.

We should probably drop XP required to level by around 90% so that casual and social players can get Completionist, too.

Casual and social gamers CAN get the completionist feat, it just takes us a whole lot longer. My completionist is currently a first-life paladin. Obviously he's not going anywhere, but if I played a little now and then for 3 years, sure. They only add maybe 1 class a year, and the XP requirements stop growing at a certain point. So yes, its available, and much like level 100 without decay, EVENTUALLY we can get there.

Renown decay means we can't. That option is closed to us.

Tshober

08-10-2012, 12:25 AM

But a casual player will never be able to get completionist because completionist does decay.

Completionist does not decay. Completionist grows. The opposite of decay. And a growing target is a far different thing from a penalty that takes away your progress you have made. Because even though the end may get further away, you are still making incremental progress. And you never lose anything. You are always gaining.

HungarianRhapsody

08-10-2012, 12:34 AM

Completionist does not decay. Completionist grows. The opposite of decay. And a growing target is a far different thing from a penalty that takes away your progress you have made. Because even though the end may get further away, you are still making incremental progress. And you never lose anything. You are always gaining.

Completionist doesn't grow. The requirements for *acquiring* completionist grow. That's quite different.

Making "progress" toward something that retreats from you faster than you progress is not progress. If you pay $200 per month on your debt, but the interest charges on that debt are $300, then you are not making progress on that debt.

A Casual can and will never earn the completionist feat. Ever. Exactly because Turbine keeps introducing new classes faster than a casual player can cap those classes.

Tshober

08-10-2012, 12:54 AM

A Casual can and will never earn the completionist feat. Ever. Exactly because Turbine keeps introducing new classes faster than a casual player can cap those classes.

Even if you are correct that Turbine will continually expand completionist enough that a casual player will never get to the feat, which I am far from certain about, you are still gaining constantly as you work toward it. You are constantly gaining game experience and new gear and new past lives and other things that make your character better. You never lose anything. You always keep gaining things. And there is always the possiblity that Turbine may stop adding new classes and you will actually get the completionist feat someday. But even if that does not happen, your character has continually progressed and gained and grown in many ways.

That is very, very different from the renown decay situation where your guild's progress is continually taken away and your guild never gains anything or grows or progresses in any way.

pseudomasochist

08-10-2012, 01:06 AM

Casual and social gamers CAN get the completionist feat, it just takes us a whole lot longer. My completionist is currently a first-life paladin. Obviously he's not going anywhere, but if I played a little now and then for 3 years, sure. They only add maybe 1 class a year, and the XP requirements stop growing at a certain point. So yes, its available, and much like level 100 without decay, EVENTUALLY we can get there.

Renown decay means we can't. That option is closed to us.
Minimum experience needed for completionist with the current 13 classes:
1.9M + 3.14M + 11 x 4.34M = 52.78M

Average experience gain per day for completionist in three years:
52.78M / (3 x 365) = 48.2K

To go from zero to completionist in three years, one would need to average over 48K experience a day. Pulling in that much experience without covering your contribution to a guild's renown decay is unlikely. Also, I think we can agree that averaging 48K/day for 3 years is anything but casual.

That's assuming no more classes are added in those 3 years which is also unlikely. The argument that completionist is available to casual gamers while guild level 100 isn't doesn't fly. If you play enough to get completionist, you will make progress on renown. If you don't play enough to be a positive influence on renown, expecting completionist isn't realistic.

Viisari

08-10-2012, 01:36 AM

Add another 100 guild levels.

Remove decay from all levels 1-100.

Don't add any buffs for level 101-200.

Charge even more renown decay once you hit level 101, with a hard cap of 100 so you can't slide back.

Power gamers can feel all fuzzy about their high numbers.

Large casual guilds can rest easy knowing they have all the advantages, except the braggin rights of a high number.

Problem solved.

But according to you guys it's "basic human nature" for everyone to want to get to the highest level possible.

So the large casual guilds would still kick people, like they do according to you, because they'd want to progress.

It would solve nothing.

Also a lvl 27 guild with 2 members loses 49 renown per day. Pulling one legendary victory would cover your decay for around two and a half months of not playing at all. Two and a half months. And you're whining that you can't progress?

Tshober

08-10-2012, 02:07 AM

But according to you guys it's "basic human nature" for everyone to want to get to the highest level possible.

So the large casual guilds would still kick people, like they do according to you, because they'd want to progress.

It is. Just like everyone wants to level up their characters, eveyone wants to level up their guild. But casual and social players don't necessarilly feel the need to level up fast. They are used to it taking longer to level up their characters than it does for the power gamers. The same would be true for guilds, if not for renown decay.

If renown decay were eliminated, some guilds would still want to level up really fast so they would still exclude casual and social players. But other guilds would not feel the need to get to highest levels quickly. They would be willing to have lots of casual and social players in their membership and work at slowly but steadily leveling up their guild. My guild is one of those.

Vanshilar

08-10-2012, 06:42 AM

With only 13 accounts, you have no idea what other people are up against. You just, have no idea.

Sorry about that.

Do you have any idea what a 13-account guild is up against when trying to reach the levels that you take for granted?

I think the point is, if enough people complain about the current, unfriendly system, PERHAPS we'll see a change.

Maybe when they come up with any compelling arguments. All I've seen so far is "decay is bad for us poor mid-high-level big guilds so let's make it easier for us to level while ignoring the 98% of guilds that are below us". Oh yes and "it's for the casuals!" even though they are above 98% of the small guilds, and only the most active 2% of small guilds can hope to compete with them -- so apparently those tens of thousands of small guilds that are below the average large guild in level is either considered "not casual" or otherwise don't merit attention.

And why large guilds are suddenly complaining lately is pretty easy to understand -- Turbine's recent Build your Guild bonus propped up large guilds beyond what they would normally be able to support, and with its end the large guilds are seeing themselves settle back down to their original levels. Of course, you don't see the same effect with small guilds because they are still plodding along, trying to reach the higher levels that large guilds take for granted.

Which means that the real take-away from this would be that Turbine should stop running these Build your Guild and renown bonus events because all it does is cause player complaints from the guilds that are already at the mid-higher levels.

I have a guild that consists of exactly 2 actual, active, functional, extremly casual players. We spent over a freaking YEAR just getting high enough level to buy an airship, only to find out that we couldn't do ANYTHING useful with it until we leveled up a lot more.

And now, apparently we are never ever actually going to be able to do anything with it because you are telling me renown DECAYS!

Relax. If you're level 26, you're already at a higher level than 70% of active small guilds. You are, however, lower level than 100% of the large guilds (which I define as 501 characters or more). In fact, the lowest-level guild in the game that has 501 or more characters last I checked (7/31/2012) was level 38. That's right, if you just went out and mass inducted, you would totally shoot up in levels. You said it took you over a year to reach your level but these guilds go from level 30 to level 40 in a matter of weeks just by inviting as many people as possible into their guild.

The problem isn't that you're getting decayed, the problem is that you simply have too few people in your guild to contribute meaningfully to your guild's renown total. There are guilds posting in this very thread whose members are less than half as active as you are, but have reached level 60 simply by mass inducting hundreds of players. Let that sink in a little bit. Their members on average gain less than half of what you gain in renown, yet they complain about how level 60 is so hard to maintain while you're barely working on level 27. The people are complaining about how hard it is to get a +4% XP shrine compared to their +3% XP shrine while ignoring that they already have the +2 stat shrines and 30 elemental resist shrines and that guilds like yours are still struggling to get your first 10 elemental resist shrine. And yet they say that getting a +4% XP shrine is a big deal compared to their +3% XP shrine, and worth changing the system so that they can level even more easily while you're still stuck below level 30.

And yet as far as they're concerned:

The reason why only 1.54% of small guilds are currently level 70 is because most small guilds are not even trying.

On the other hand, every large guild is trying.

To get through the majority of the levels, all you need to do is to have as many people as possible, because renown decay is so small early on. Suspiciously enough, you never hear those large guilds complain about how easy it was to power through those levels, and how much the renown system encourages people to join up into large guilds to get the easy buffs (easy for a large guild, hard for a small guild), because guilds like yours will realistically not see any 30 elemental resist shrines.

Of course they frame their argument as "it's for the casuals!" and that it's hard to maintain a large guild with casuals, even though I've already shown that casuals help large guilds level up faster, while they make it harder for small guilds to level (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3809426&postcount=138) by decreasing everybody else's renown bonus for the small guild. Now that they've taken full advantage of the casuals' efforts in helping them level up, they're looking around for an excuse to get rid of them, and using the system and the casuals as scapegoats -- which shows their true colors about wanting to help casuals.

And it's funny how the suggestions for changing this system has nothing to do with helping out casuals, unless you happen to be a casual in one of those large guilds. For example:

There are simple ways to restructure the guild leveling system so that renown decay is not needed. I have proposed one such plan here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385226

Surprise, surprise -- by removing renown decay, there would every incentive to just induct as many people as possible, so all it would do would be to make large guilds dominate the renown system even more by sheer manpower, as if they don't already. Small casual guilds like yours, HunterjWizzard, would still be hopelessly stuck at the low levels, and the vast majority of guilds are small. Or this:

Cap daily renown decay at 100K. Make no other changes to the decay formula, just apply the 100k cap at the end.

...

Under this scenario a large guild with no casual players would be able to advance pretty rapidly to 100 but so what? What harm does that do? Guild levels, we are told, are mostly just for bragging rights anyway. Small guilds would be unafffected by this cap at all because most of them will never see 100k per day decay. So this levels the playing field a bit between small and large guilds.

Of course, until you get to the really high levels, only large guilds will see renown decay in excess of 100k per day. Also, because small guilds would be unaffected by that cap, it really means that all small guilds will see 100% of their renown decay, while large guilds would only see a fraction of it and hence be easier to level up, even though they're already easier to level up. How this "levels the playing field" when large guilds can already get to the mid-high levels easily is anyone's guess.

If large guilds were truly as concerned about the plight of casual players as they claim, they'd look into why is it that casuals are pretty much locked out of getting useful ship buffs unless they join a large guild -- that large guilds, whether casual or powergamer, have no trouble reaching the mid-high levels and are above the vast majority of other guilds, while only the most active of small guilds are able to reach the kind of levels that large guilds complain about. The amount of renown needed to go from one level to the next quickly becomes large enough that you either have to be in a very active small guild, or just join a large guild where the combined power of hundreds of players putting their renown into the same pot will almost automatically get you levels.

It won't cap you at 26, but it will cap you eventially (usually around 55 - 70) if you invite a significant number of casual or social players into your guild. The more you invite the sooner you will be capped.

The only reason why the more you invite the sooner you will be capped, is that the more you invite the faster you get to the higher levels.

Completionist does not decay. Completionist grows. The opposite of decay. And a growing target is a far different thing from a penalty that takes away your progress you have made. Because even though the end may get further away, you are still making incremental progress. And you never lose anything. You are always gaining.

I believe the concept you're looking for is inflation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation). No matter how much the bank says their 0.1% interest rate on your savings account is making you money, if the inflation rate is greater than this, you're losing money (or more precisely, purchasing power). It occurs with almost everything in this game: character builds, gear, etc. as already explained elsewhere. In gaming, this is also more commonly referred to as power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep).

AeliusMaximus

08-10-2012, 07:51 AM

And it's funny how the suggestions for changing this system has nothing to do with helping out casuals, unless you happen to be a casual in one of those large guilds.

Van, props to you for the long-winded defense of your position on maintaining the status quo ... you have more patience than I to type that up. :) First let me say that I don't have a dog in this fight. I have a medium guild that is progressing just fine and has long had all the buffs I care about anyway. However, this argument for changing the decay system I believe has some merit. I agree with most of what you're saying, but I think there are a few things being left unsaid ....

1) The customer is always right ... in this case, there are obviously a lot of people unhappy with the current system. IMHO, that's an issue Turbine needs to deal with.

2) The current system effectively rewards a guild based on member-activity-level-per-day. WHY should it be structured this way? The answer .. it's simply a matter of opinion. You present some eloquent arguments, but in the end it's only your opinion.

Perhaps, a compromise to the casual players/guilds would be to pro-rate renown decay based on time spent in-game, instead of decay-every-day like we have now. I think that might make a lot of the people who only get to play on weekends (b/c they work all week) happy ... and I'm only guessing here, those are probably some of the more lucrative(aka important) customers anyway. That's just my 2 cents, take it with some lemon and a grain of salt. Have a great Friday all!

guardianx2009

08-10-2012, 08:41 AM

And why large guilds are suddenly complaining lately is pretty easy to understand -- Turbine's recent Build your Guild bonus propped up large guilds beyond what they would normally be able to support, and with its end the large guilds are seeing themselves settle back down to their original levels. Of course, you don't see the same effect with small guilds because they are still plodding along, trying to reach the higher levels that large guilds take for granted.

The L21-25 update also has a negative effect on renown: Raids and other quests that guilds run regularly no longer give as much, or any renown.

Shroud runs no longer yield as much (if any renown) thanks to level 25s, etc. A guild that usually runs shrouds/reavers/etc 2 - 3 times a week will find diminishing renown for their effort thanks to epic levels. A 12 man guild run that used to yield ~4-6k renown now yields 0-1k for their hour's worth of effort. Farming Prey on Hunter/SoS DT runes used to at yield at least a few impressive/legendaries. Now it yields nothing.

Viisari

08-10-2012, 08:45 AM

The L21-25 update also has a negative effect on renown: Raids and other quests that guilds run regularly no longer give as much, or any renown.

Shroud runs no longer yield as much (if any renown) thanks to level 25s, etc. A guild that usually runs shrouds/reavers/etc 2 - 3 times a week will find diminishing renown for their effort thanks to epic levels. A 12 man guild run that used to yield ~4-6k renown now yields 0-1k for their hour's worth of effort. Farming Prey on Hunter/SoS DT runes used to at yield at least a few impressive/legendaries. Now it yields nothing.

That affected absolutely everyone.

And can be worked around if need be.

This is also a problem that solves itself with time as more content is added.

madmaxhunter

08-10-2012, 08:50 AM

*snip*[/URL].

Translation: We're level 100 and don't want you to be.

This has been suggested before: Raise the level cap of guilds to... 500, or whatever. Amenities stay where there at. No new ones above the ones we have now.

What does this bring? Guilds can realistically achieve all the ships, buffs, etc that they WORK for, hard core guilds can still advance past everyone else.

Guilds level will then still be a mark of guild success without screwing new/casual players.

eris2323

08-10-2012, 08:58 AM

Do you have any idea what a 13-account guild is up against when trying to reach the levels that you take for granted?

guild
noun
1.
an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., especially one formed for mutual aid or protection.
2.
any of various medieval associations, as of merchants or artisans, organized to maintain standards and to protect the interests of its members, and that sometimes constituted a local governing body.
3.
Botany . a group of plants, as parasites, having a similar habit of growth and nutrition.

13 People? Doesn't sound like a guild to me.

I don't ever see only 13 people in the guild of electricians of my city. I know there's more than 13 artisans in my city.

Definately more than 13 merchants.

Local Governing Body? Sounds like a lot more than 13, too.

Perhaps you guys shouldn't have to min-max your guild at 13, and should be able to invite who you'd like?

Drakesan

08-10-2012, 09:02 AM

Why is there no home for the casuals?

Why must there be a risk of losing your guild if you go casual?

*THAT* makes no sense to me.

This!

Want us to level slower? Ok. Want us to pay more for amenities since we are lower level/casual guild? Ok. Want to take our arbitrary guild level number and throw it out? Ok.

Want us to lose what ALL guild members have worked for? NOT ok. Want us to not have the option to purchase amenities that benefit our guild? Still not ok. We have to look at our pool of players and decide between keeping/booting people based on us potentially losing something that ALL have worked towards? WAY not ok.

I still don't get how a new/low level toon that has 30 point resists, upper level buffs, etc. that has an easier time working through the lower levels has ANY impact on other players, or anyone else's gamplay. Why do you care to tell others how they can or cannot play this game? *THAT* makes no sense to me.

Please, give us a goal that we can work for, strive for, have a sense of accomplishment with, that will not be removed simply because our members don't play enough. We, a large guild that has very active, somewhat active, and very casual players, are benefitting those same players as well as everyone else (including you), including Turbine, by welcoming all with open arms. More players = stronger game.

Guild decay hurts the social aspect of this game. Badly. How about allowing us to opt out of the renown gain/decay thing altogether? Give us an option to strive for accomplishments that our guild can enjoy, from all aspects of player activity, without the threat of having it taken away?

Please?

Tshober

08-10-2012, 09:10 AM

Perhaps, a compromise to the casual players/guilds would be to pro-rate renown decay based on time spent in-game, instead of decay-every-day like we have now. I think that might make a lot of the people who only get to play on weekends (b/c they work all week) happy ... and I'm only guessing here, those are probably some of the more lucrative(aka important) customers anyway. My 2 cents anyway, take it with some lemon and a grain of salt. Have a great Friday all!

I agree that this is a compromise and would be a great improvement over the horrible system we have today. However, this would do nothing for players who prefer to play the game socially most of the time. For example people who spend most of their online time roleplaying or chatting. It is my opinion that these people can add much to a guild and to DDO's overall atmosphere and so I beleive they should also be made to feel welcome both in guilds and in DDO.

There are simple ways to restructure the guild leveling system so that renown decay is not needed at all. This can be done so that all guilds have goals to accomplish and no guilds will be forever excluded from progressing. Here is one way: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385226

I am sure our devs can come up with even better plans. If there is great concern that small guilds will not be viable under such a plan, then the small guild bonuses can be increased (within reason). I would like to point out that small guilds would still be able to continually advance under such a plan, if more slowly. That is far, far better than casual/social guilds have it under the current system.

Viisari

08-10-2012, 09:16 AM

Kindly keep the conversation civil.

You just broke forum rules.

I have as much right to post as you do.

So according to you over 90% of the guilds in DDO are not, in fact, guilds?

eris2323

08-10-2012, 09:20 AM

So according to you over 90% of the guilds in DDO are not, in fact, guilds?

In my eyes, a 13 person guild is NOT the kind of guild I want.

It might be okay for others. And they really shouldn't be penalized either. And they should still get a bonus.

However, a 13 person guild is almost 100% sure of being... a powergamer guild.

Note the word almost.

I mean, why else have that number? Sounds exactly like the min-maxxers ideal number in the guild... except added a person or two (by accident perhaps?)

And, from the past posts on this subject... it seems that the powerlevel guilds are the most vocal opponents of any sort of renown decay reform.

So instead of being rude, and telling me what I can, and can not post... how about either help with suggestions for improvement to the system, or.... perhaps... and just perhaps... learn the smallest amount of human decency required to NOT throw insults into what was a civil conversation about things affecting a LARGE number of people.

We're talking hundreds in each large guild.

Of course I could be wrong. You might not be in a powergamer guild. You might just be rude.

eris2323

08-10-2012, 09:34 AM

So. Back on Track.

Tried to have a nice conversation about guild decay problems - someone jumps in with an insult.

No problem...

Currently my guild represents about... 180? 190? Accounts. Somewhere around there....

I feel I am representing them - the people we gave homes to.

We have some that are idle for a year. I know, I know. The powergamers want us to boot them.

But they helped us get where we are. And it took us years.

I still don't think it's fair that:

a) we pay renown debt for people who aren't logging in

b) we pay two weeks of penalties if we HAVE to kick a person.

Ideally, the simplest solution to me is to change the decay formula so that you are only charged for the players that log in each day.

If we have 20 people log in, and 170 didn't log in that day... well, that day, we should only pay renown debt on 20 players.

Those 20 playing characters at least have a chance to earn some renown. They're not carrying EVERYONE else in the guild. The decay numbers would be MUCH less, and we'd have a chance to actually... you know... grow again in levels.

There has GOT to be a better way than the current system.

There has GOT to be a better way than kicking out our friends.

There has GOT to be a better way to make the power gamers feel like they are special, good, and awesome (I guess they need it or something)

The system we have now... IS NOT THE WAY.

Drakesan

08-10-2012, 09:39 AM

Actually, this idea to pay renown debt on those that log in only is awesome.

How many people logged in to check out the new expansion, then promptly logged back out for weeks until U15? Renown debt for two more weeks... ouch.

This idea has merit. Thanks!

eris2323

08-10-2012, 09:40 AM

I can not take credit for the idea... someone else mentioned it to me.

It made perfect, crystal-clear sense to me immediately.

if 50 people logged in to check the expansion, and logged off due to bugs.

50 times 650 renown times 14 days.

You're right.

Ouch

455000 decay. Right there.

eris2323

08-10-2012, 09:46 AM

I'd like us all to take 30 seconds of silence for all those people who didn't log off, who fought through the bugs, and who allowed us to break even during this time of trouble.

Thank you all.

To those who did check it out, and leave in disgust for a few weeks to wait for the patchs. Well, I totally understand. The game was almost unplayable and broken. I myself swore so much while playing my wife was getting mad at my yelling.

ladypummel

08-10-2012, 09:47 AM

as leader of for loot and glory and as far as i know the largest highest level guild across the servers the decay system is ****. I have read the same tired debates about how little tiny guilds work harder and it is not true i mean if we have the same 12 peeps in a raid we all drawll 5 k renown exactly the same the small guild gets 15k with liitlle to no decay large guild gets 5k so they are still in the hole. how did this every become a idea the small guild worked harder therefor they deserve more . then on top of that every small high level guild on our server has pillfered my players to join there guilds so it was definately not the players ability either the fact that after 2 years we bleed more renown per day then most guilds gather in a week is insane and should be stopped // also the lack of any log at all on renown is **** as well i mean i see no rhyme or reason in it i will have exsactly the same modified accounts/departures and different decay numbers daily . There is no proof that renown is even being registered at all i mean the chest lags i eat the renown wheres it go did i get it the number on the guild lfm didnt change this system needs a total redo its **** thanks ------- leader of for loot and glory

eris2323

08-10-2012, 10:03 AM

Welcome to our pain!

I just wanted to let you know though... if you have the guild social tab open, and you get renown, the renown won't update itself until you click the 'guild' button again.

I myself have watched renown grow by clicking that button - but we can't just leave it open and watch it, it doesn't update itself.

Hope that does help... it does show that renown is being added to guild coffers...

But the rest of your problems.... I feel your pain.

Totally agree, system needs a total do-over.

Zlingerdark

08-10-2012, 11:24 AM

No need to choose? Seriously?
Make one race with all the bonuses of the others combined so there is no need to choose.
Make one class with all the abilities of the others combined so there is no need to choose.
Make one weapon with all the attributes of the others so there is no need to choose.
Make one armour with all the bonuses of the others so there is no need to choose.
Make one quest with all same XP & mobs so there is no need to choose.

On a side note, removing the the buffs and guild renown would have exactly the same effect.

This is ridiculous. Your last line shows the hypocrisy. You start out by saying the buffs are not needed. Heck, even to say they are completely irrelevant to the CHOICES that players make. While the guild leaders have to constantly tackle with the endless grief of losing players in the guild SOLELY because of this CHOICE. Guild leaders are not making the choices here, the members who leave are.

Why would a member leave a good casual guild of fun players? Even close friends, if it didn't matter what those ship amenities were?

Let's face it, most if not ALL players DO care about them. Sure, if you never had them you wouldn't know what you are missing. And unfortunately that is exactly what a large majority of the casual/social player base IS faced with. They will forever miss out on these supposedly irrelevant ship buffs because they will NEVER be accepted into any guild of a decent level or size to have them.

Arguing to keep the current system is showing that you do not care at all about other players who want to play, be a part of a community, a part of a large and growing guild of like-minded players.

I just had a thought, in addition to punishing large guilds for having, oh my god, a large active social community by making sure that they have to nickle and dime every renown they can find, while the smaller guilds of low member base can take advantage of bonus renown. It is a double whammy against having any LARGE guild at all. A double incentive, if you will, to disbanding the large guild, keeping only the hard-cores and say go screw yourself to the rest and find your own guild. How exactly is that fostering a community within a guild?

You say we have a choice. Often when people are faced with the hard choice that their guild will never progress beyond a certain level, and groan every time they see the message, "Your guild level has been decreased to..." doesn't bring warm fuzzy feelings to ANYBODY within the guild.

What makes no sense here is that there are in game incentives that reward anti-social guild activity, when the opposite should be true. Everybody should WANT to join a large guild of players so they can have fun, and feel like they are a contributor to that guild. Sadly every guild's measure for member contribution is SOLELY based on how much renown they have gotten. That is asinine at best, and goes against the grain of what made guilds a social entity to begin with.

Guilds never had to deal with these issue BEFORE guild levels and renown came into play. And every LARGE guild was proud of having LARGE member base.

And THAT my friend is solely a Turbine choice. Players are simply choosing the path of least resistance. Somehow I do not think that Turbine intended to destroy all the old long established guilds with a LARGE active player base by introducing this guild renown/level system. They obviously didn't think that it would result in a shattering of many large guilds into small cliche ones.

Drakesan

08-10-2012, 11:28 AM

<snip>

Thank you! Very well said!

Now, get out of my head, the echo's are killing me. :)

Edit: Oh, and +1.

Coyopa

08-10-2012, 12:07 PM

~snip~
We have some that are idle for a year. I know, I know. The powergamers want us to boot them.~snip~

This is going to be my last post in this thread (or any thread on this subject).

First of all, I'm not a powergamer. My guild is growing slowly because my officers and I want to get to know the people we are inviting a bit before we invite them. We don't evaluate them based on the frequency with which they play. If we are interested in having someone join or someone is interested in joining, then we group with them as much as we can while they are on. If that's once a week, then that is what it is. They don't have to group with everyone in our guild - nor do they have to group with all the officers or even myself. After a couple of weeks or a month (depending on the frequency with which they play), if a couple or three of the members in the guild like them and think they'd be a good fit, then they get invited. We haven't added a lot of people because it has simply worked out that most of the people we end up playing with are already in guilds and are happy with the guild they are in. We've had a few people who were unhappy with their guild and were specifically looking for a new guild. They ended up joining us.

I've never said "Don't invite casual players". I'm saying if you do more than just invite everyone who asks in general chat about getting a guild invite, then you're going to reduce your turn-over. Turn-over hurts a lot more than casual players. Casual players are a net benefit to a guild. Plus, everyone has a life offline and nobody should be penalized for that.

The guild we left was mid-40's level. The leader wanted to invite everyone who asked in general chat for an invite. The officers disagreed. We disagreed because we had *massive* turn-over. We had people who joined and left within just a few minutes. The average was a day or two. Some of the people who did not leave of their own accord were kicked for being rude, arrogant, and/or for arguing with existing members (not just officers!) in guild chat. The rest remained and turned out to be valuable members. The leader wanted to invite everyone under the sun *and* wanted to attain a high level (whatever that meant to him, I cannot recall). So, the disagreement between the officers and the leader, plus being stagnated in the mid-40's due to turn-over, led to us leaving the guild. After we left, it managed to move up to the low 50's and has stayed there since. Thus, it was neither an 'active' nor a 'growing' guild.

Second, I wouldn't want you to boot them. You're right. They helped get you where you are. I've got a person in my guild who has been inactive for 6 months. I'm not booting them - now or ever. The way renown decay works right now, it would be pointless for you to boot those people. All it would do is cost you 25% of the renown they did contribute while playing *and* increase your decay for 2 weeks.

Anyway, that all said, it *would* be nice not to have to struggle so hard against decay. So, I'll say this: I was wrong. /signed

Auralana7214

08-10-2012, 12:21 PM

Wow, this thread really got out of hand. I'll add my two cents and be gone.

Here again, Turbine has a rush job that has turned into a broken system that they're not sure how to fix or even if they want to tackle it (my guess is no).

Guild Renown is **** and we all know it. The proportions of bonuses for small guilds compared to how much decay they get is waaaaaay off. The point of the bonuses should be to balance them against a large guild and the amount of renown they can pull from sheer number of people. Instead, the pendulum has swung the other direction and has made it pretty much impossible for anyone without a size bonus to make it to the top.

The lack of controls on the guild (ie. seeing what toons are from which account) cut leaders and officers off at the knees as far as trying to manage a guild. We have a spreadsheet in our guild, but inevitably, someone gets missed or an officer goes rogue, with invites when no one else is on.

I'm not going to propose a solution. I think there are a few options, but the devs could figure it out if they wanted to. If they only meant for a few guilds to be able to make it to the top (bell shaped curve anyone?), then that's fine, but that does not mean that large guilds should be excluded from the possibility which, under the current system, we are.

I love my guild. Whatever the level, as long as the people are there and the game is fun, I'll be there too.

FranOhmsford

08-10-2012, 12:29 PM

FranOhmsford

08-10-2012, 12:35 PM

One other point:

If Turbine wants only a few guilds to get to Lvl 100 then any guild being created today is up against a significant barrier - Of players wanting to be in one of those high level guilds rather than working their way up.

There should always be meaningful decay at the top levels also so as to stop a few guilds getting into the 90s and simply inviting everyone they see as one person in this thread has suggested - Otherwise smaller guilds will see significant losses.

Turbine has to balance this - Unfortunately the math that goes into the current decay system is beyond me - Maths was never my best subject.
I do know that it needs Changing/Simplifying!

eris2323

08-10-2012, 12:49 PM

Wow, this thread really got out of hand. I'll add my two cents and be gone.

My bad. I tend to get wordy when I'm passionate about a subject. ;)

Zlingerdark

08-10-2012, 02:01 PM

I've made two suggestions in the past that I'll reiterate here:

1. Renown Decay should be calculated weekly rather than daily - Give the weekend only players the opportunity to make their renown target before the decay hits on a Monday Morning - 6am EST.

2. We currently have a Hard Level at Lvl 26 - Put in New Hard Levels at Lvl 52 and 78 - If guilds have worked to get to these levels there should be a bonus.
If Guild Levels were ever to go past 100 then a 4th Hard Level could be coded in at 104. and so on.

I have been advocating a similar system, especially a weekly version of a renown decay rate based on guild ACTIVITY, not account size. Thus, if your guild is very active (say more than 50% of the accounts have logged on within a week) the decay rate is reduced to 25% of the normal rate. By making it a weekly rate event, most players who only can play once a twice a week will not be dragging the guild down and contributing to the renown decay rate. The exact opposite should happen. The more ACTIVE the guild (regardless of size, or level) should be the driving factor.

I have proposed a system that I believe is more fair to all guilds no matter how casual or social they are. The more active the guild the more likely they will progress, eventually.

A) Low activity: A guild that has fewer than 25% of its member base logging in per week, suffer full renown decay.

B) Normal activity: A guild who manages to have more than 25% but less than 50% of its members logged in within a week, suffer 50% of the normal rate of decay.

C) HIGH activity: A guild that has more than 50% of its members logged in within a week, suffers just 25% of the normal rate of decay.

Keeping it simple, and rewarding highly to regularly active guilds would go a long way towards making the guild size, and level achievable for most guilds. Casual or otherwise.

Drakesan

08-10-2012, 02:10 PM

<snip>
A) Low activity: A guild that has fewer than 25% of its member base logging in per week, suffer full renown decay.

B) Normal activity: A guild who manages to have more than 25% but less than 50% of its members logged in within a week, suffer 50% of the normal rate of decay.

C) HIGH activity: A guild that has more than 50% of its members logged in within a week, suffers just 25% of the normal rate of decay.

Keeping it simple, and rewarding highly to regularly active guilds would go a long way towards making the guild size, and level achievable for most guilds. Casual or otherwise.

I was advocating getting rid of the punishment for low activity/casual play, as I feel strongly you should not get a spanking for not playing "often". However, I think your idea has merit, if you get rid of the decay altogether, or at the very least a significant reduction (>90%).

As a guild with a lot of casual gamers, we progress very slowly? I'm ok with that. Reward even more the guild with a higher activity rate? Absolutely! If you and your guild spend a large amount of time on the game, boost your renown. I like that idea.

I feel your suggestion still punishes those casual gamers (and their guilds) uneccessarily. I still feel strongly that more players = stronger game. Please stop spanking us for having a large amount of casual people in our guild, is my point.

Good post, though. I like this type of debate. Thank you.

teh_meh

08-10-2012, 02:17 PM

danotmano1998

08-10-2012, 02:20 PM

I'll happily post in every single guild renown thread I see that the current system is absolutely terrible and should be changed immediately.

^^ What he said.

It sucks to have to stop and explain to a new person how guild renown works, and why adding their cousin that only plays a couple hours every other week will actually be detrimental to everyone in the guild...

I usually get silence after the explanation...
then a "Well that's stupid!" With which I have to agree. Every time.

Drakesan

08-10-2012, 02:27 PM

Top guilds should never feature casual players. If you want to play that way, fine. Be happy with your level 60 guild and most of the available buffs.

If you want to have the best guild level, become the best, gather the best around you and get to work.

It's bad enough that 100s of people have cheat-leveled a guild to cap with exploits. Why are we extending level 100 to casual slackers again?

At this point, I'm more inclined to respect a level 1 guild than a level 100 guild cause I know the peeps in a level 1 guild are getting it done without a bunch of ship buffs.

/2 cents

If we are to define a top guild as to not feature casual players..... ok. As for being happy with your level 60 guild, we are trying to.

As for the "get to work" portion, I think this is not how you intended it, but brings up a great point: I have a job. Getting on DDO should never have to be an extension of work. Last I looked, the vast majority of us get on DDO to have..... wait for it........ fun.

The posters on here are NOT asking Turbine to extend level 100 to anyone. And for you to label casual players as "casual slackers" means you missed that particular point as bad as you can.

eris2323

08-10-2012, 02:34 PM

Top guilds should never feature casual players. If you want to play that way, fine. Be happy with your level 60 guild and most of the available buffs.

If you want to have the best guild level, become the best, gather the best around you and get to work.

It's bad enough that 100s of people have cheat-leveled a guild to cap with exploits. Why are we extending level 100 to casual slackers again?

At this point, I'm more inclined to respect a level 1 guild than a level 100 guild cause I know the peeps in a level 1 guild are getting it done without a bunch of ship buffs.

/2 cents

Anyone who calls casual players 'slackers'... well.

It's possible we might have to work for a living.

It's possible we might have children.

It's possible we might have things to do, people to see.

It's possible that we are just as deserving of playing this game as the rest of you, in fact, some of the casuals pay a LOT of money into this game, because here's what they realize:

"If I want it for free, I can grind out 6000 epic ingredients, at about 100ish ingredients per run, and earn my true heart that way. But I don't have time for that, I have to go back to work tomorrow for another week, so I'll just BUY my true heart, since I work, and can afford it"

Casual players aren't slackers, and that sir, is offensive.

teh_meh

08-10-2012, 02:40 PM

If we are to define a top guild as to not feature casual players..... ok. As for being happy with your level 60 guild, we are trying to.

As for the "get to work" portion, I think this is not how you intended it, but brings up a great point: I have a job. Getting on DDO should never have to be an extension of work. Last I looked, the vast majority of us get on DDO to have..... wait for it........ fun.

The posters on here are NOT asking Turbine to extend level 100 to anyone. And for you to label casual players as "casual slackers" means you missed that particular point as bad as you can.

I too work and struggle for the kind of game time I want. I'm rockin a level 39 guild and really don't care. I have nothing against casual players.

But this is all bull. You're stuck at a certain guild level and you want someone to give you more. You'll blame the decay formula, the implementation, Turbine or Coyle himself. It's all fluff designed to hide the fact the people want access to something they cannot achieve for whatever limitations.

It's e-socialism

eris2323

08-10-2012, 02:42 PM

I too work and struggle for the kind of game time I want. I'm rockin a level 39 guild and really don't care. I have nothing against casual players.

But this is all bull. You're stuck at a certain guild level and you want someone to give you more. You'll blame the decay formula, the implementation, Turbine or Coyle himself. It's all fluff designed to hide the fact the people want access to something they cannot achieve for whatever limitations.

It's e-socialism

You haven't been paying attention to the whole thread. Some have advocated a removal of the decay system entirely - some just want a fair chance to get to the high levels.

Some are, mathematically, forbidden from ever getting to the levels you take for granted. There's already been someone in this thread like that.

If you could stop flinging insults for a few minutes, and go back and read the entire thread, you might be able to see the many sides to this issue, instead of just lashing out at us.

teh_meh

08-10-2012, 02:44 PM

If you could stop flinging insults for a few minutes, and go back and read the entire thread, you might be able to see the many sides to this issue, instead of just lashing out at us.

fair enough. i did not read the entire thread and will do so. but this is not the first time this argument has appeared on the DDO forums.

eris2323

08-10-2012, 02:51 PM

fair enough. i did not read the entire thread and will do so. but this is not the first time this argument has appeared on the DDO forums.

The main thing that most of us want - and not just in this thread...

Is the chance to grow. Not to be stuck at a certain level (which ALWAYS comes) if we allow casual players into our guild.

The math and numbers right now favor small, active guilds. But those of us in large, casual, social guilds, guilds that we used to take pride in being able to give a home to newbies, and teach the ropes to...? We're no longer able to do that, if we want to gain levels.

It doesn't matter if people say 'be happy with what you have'. We're not. No one wants to choose between deleting their friends who helped build the guild, but may now be casual - solely so that we can gain levels; but that is the choice we are given, if we want to beat the math.

It's a horrid choice - a large amount of people agree that something needs to be done, the real question is what, exactly, can we do about it - what suggestions can we offer to Turbine to make it less painful for casual players.

There's always a wall. There's always a choice. We don't believe the wall should be AS bad. Most people in large or casual guilds don't mind growing slowly... but at some point, we can't. We hit the wall, and fall backwards. Once we get to a high enough level. The more casual players you have, the sooner the wall hits.

If you have 3 friends, good friends from school say, and that's your guild... but you only have time to play once a week.... well, that wall is going to be hit ALOT sooner than the bigger guilds too.

But does it have to be that way? Who does it hurt to think about taking another look at the system, and try to work in some changes that make the game more friendly to new and casual players?

It only hurts those who think, for some reason, only THEY are deserving enough of a high level guild, and everyone else doesn't.

The rest of us, in this PVE game, just don't care if guild a is level 70 and guild b is level 100... we just want OUR guild to have a chance to continue growing, without having to kick our casual players out.

Maitland

08-10-2012, 02:53 PM

Wow..this still active?..
hi everyone..Casual slacker here..Just made it home from another 12 hour work day.
About to log on and get my renoun fix.
Alittle about me first..
I work 60 hours a week,have one ex wife,2 current wives,5 kids,1 dog,and 1 cat.
I am a cultivator..( I grow plants) and I play pick up ice hockey every Saturday night.
And get this..I still make my renoun for my guild..
hehehehee.. I know I know..I'm superman.
All this has been going on for about 2 years now..
I am sure it will all catch up with me sooner or later.
oh,,I am a whole 37 years young :D
Thats me in a nutshell..not sure where I was going with all this...

eris2323

08-10-2012, 02:58 PM

Wow..this still active?..

We will Never quit, never surrender!

We'll choke their rivers with our dead.

No man gets left behind.

Or something along those lines.

Maitland

08-10-2012, 03:01 PM

Heeehehhe..hola Eris :)

Drakesan

08-10-2012, 03:09 PM

I too work and struggle for the kind of game time I want. I'm rockin a level 39 guild and really don't care. I have nothing against casual players.

But this is all bull. You're stuck at a certain guild level and you want someone to give you more. You'll blame the decay formula, the implementation, Turbine or Coyle himself. It's all fluff designed to hide the fact the people want access to something they cannot achieve for whatever limitations.

It's e-socialism

I never once asked for someone to give me something. I merely asked to not have something we worked for to be taken away again. Or, failing that, allow us to opt out of the system and have an alternate means of achieving the same goals (btw, achieve does not equal give, in case you were wondering about the difference.)

E-socialism is taking what we have worked for and giving it to someone else. That also misses the mark.

damiangerous

08-10-2012, 03:14 PM

Tshober

08-10-2012, 03:16 PM

I too work and struggle for the kind of game time I want. I'm rockin a level 39 guild and really don't care. I have nothing against casual players.

But this is all bull. You're stuck at a certain guild level and you want someone to give you more.It's e-socialism

No one is asking to be given anything they did not earn. We are only asking that the progress we have earned not be taken away because we don't log in every day. That's all. Your analogy is flawed. We earned renown and guild progress but DDO took it away from us. Like a tax. We are being taxxed because we are casual and social players. It works exactly like a tax, although I prefer to call it a penalty because that is a bit more accurate. But still, it works just exactly like a tax. Somethiing you have earned is taken away from you by those in charge.

No other part of DDO takes away your progress because you did not log in for a few days. Why should guild renown work so completely differently from every other part of DDO?

Tshober

08-10-2012, 03:33 PM

What makes no sense here is that there are in game incentives that reward anti-social guild activity, when the opposite should be true.

Well said! You made many excellent points.

+1

Drakesan

08-10-2012, 04:27 PM

Casual slacker here..

I work 60 hours a week,have one ex wife,2 current wives,5 kids,1 dog,and 1 cat.

Ok, read it the first time, did not register.... read it again.... gotta ask... misprint? meant to swap the one ex and 2 current around? Because if not.....Casual slacker you are not........:)

eris2323

08-10-2012, 05:40 PM

If you don't see the fnords, they can't eat you.

Gremmlynn

08-11-2012, 04:31 AM

Gremmlynn

08-11-2012, 04:54 AM

You do realize all those players you are recommending everyone should reject have to go somewhere, don't you?

Essentially your recommendation to DDO guilds is: Kick/filter out those casual and social players. Who needs them? Let them go to some other MMO. DDO only needs really active (defined as gets lots of renown) players.

Somehow I doubt Turbine wants that.

But thanks for the advice.This is the thing I don't understand. How is the current system advantages to Turbine?

Granted, guilds that hit a wall might be buying a few gold seal amenities, but they don't have as many hook points to put them in.

Also, it the might be delusional enough to believe a guilds leadership would make efforts to encourage players to play more. But really, how likely is that to happen rather than just booting and how even if it does, how likely is it people will actually play more due to that encouragement. If the game itself isn't enough to get players to spend more of what free time they may have playing, how are in game perks going to accomplish it. More likely those players are going to see the game as requiring a larger time investment than they are willing to commit and go elsewhere.

So really, how is the current system advantages to anyone?

Pintail

08-11-2012, 05:02 AM

/signed

susiedupfer

08-11-2012, 05:10 AM

So, please forgive me if I am being redundant. I just want them to allow us to remove players inactive a long time without losing their renown or being penalized for 2 weeks afterward. Ideally that time would be over 1 month, but under 3 months. I would prefer 1 month and 1 day, but that is just me. This would allow us to invite new people without paying so severe a penalty for inviting the casual players. Right now, we won't recruit anyone new, because our inactives may come back and put us over that magic 30 active accounts that seems to be the cut off for efficient guild levelling.

Gremmlynn

08-11-2012, 05:32 AM

Simply, they can't remove decay without removing buffs. If they don't then everyone will have all the buffs which is pointless. To paraphrase Syndrome, "if everyone is special then nobody is."
<snip>

Why does any particular guild need to be special. The buffs work to encourage players to actually join a guild in the hopes it gets them more socially involved, invested and grounded in the game.

Gremmlynn

08-11-2012, 05:51 AM

And you know what, nothing is stopping you doing that now. YOU (or your guild leader) is choosing to take guild levels as more important then running with friends. If your buffs are that important that is your call, not Turbines.No, it's generally more a matter of a guild leader choosing to keep it's active core, who tend to be interested in guild advancement, over the group of casual members that it's picked up. Which is really the logical choice to make, as without that active core guilds tend to fall apart due to not reliably having people on to play with. Simply put, guilds can function without casual players, but are pretty pointless without active players. About the only reason I can see for decay is to prevent casual pseudo-guilds that exist just for the buffs from being viable. I just don't see a problem with their existence and certainly don't see how their existence could be bad enough as to cause actual core+casual guilds such consternation.

Simply put, the GL who tries to be casual friendly risks the loss of their active core members and the disintegration of their guild due to the renown decay system.

Gremmlynn

08-11-2012, 06:57 AM

eris2323

08-11-2012, 07:05 AM

No, it's generally more a matter of a guild leader choosing to keep it's active core, who tend to be interested in guild advancement, over the group of casual members that it's picked up. Which is really the logical choice to make, as without that active core guilds tend to fall apart due to not reliably having people on to play with. Simply put, guilds can function without casual players, but are pretty pointless without active players. About the only reason I can see for decay is to prevent casual pseudo-guilds that exist just for the buffs from being viable. I just don't see a problem with their existence and certainly don't see how their existence could be bad enough as to cause actual core+casual guilds such consternation.

Simply put, the GL who tries to be casual friendly risks the loss of their active core members and the disintegration of their guild due to the renown decay system.

Thank you sir, may I have another.

Well said.

Gremmlynn

08-11-2012, 07:18 AM

The only thing that is stopping that happening now is you. There is no autoboot/autocap in the DDO Guild system.

I am going to bold this, mark it in red and call it Point 1.

See Point 1. If the old way was fun and you enjoyed it, why not go back to it and not worry about what level your guild is.

Then don't micromanage. Go back to Point 1.

Point 1. Do what is fun then and ignore what isn't.

Don't worry about guild level then and focus on Point 1.

If they are not that important, why are you stressing so much about getting them instead of focusing on Point 1?

Have to say it again, you are letting it ruin the game. If every time you log on you grind for a specific item say Ring of Spell Storing, and it never drops. The grind is ruining the enjoyment and you start to hate it. Would you keep grinding or go back to running quests you enjoy?

It doesn't. It hurts the game to have all players buffed to the hilt because then the game has to get levelled to match.

I'm not in a big guild. I inherited a level 40ish guild some time ago, not even sure what exact level it is and it hasn't gained a level in god knows how long. It's handy for guild vendors and guild only items though.This completely discounts the social dynamics. In my experience, it's the members of a guilds active core that most care about guild levels and the perks that come with it. The more casual players are more interested in the active core than anything else really, a reliable source of people to play with whenever they choose to log on.

This is where the system screws casual players. Either they get booted from the guild or the reason they are in the guild leaves due to them not being booted, which doesn't leave them (or anyone really) a reason to remain. Booting the casuals at least maintains the viability of the guild, but at the cost of being an ass. So basically GLs face the choice of continually recruiting new members to replace those that left due to the cycle above or being an ass.

Gremmlynn

08-11-2012, 07:29 AM

/Shrug
Up to you. Continue not enjoying the game and not running with friends then.

That makes no sense to me.
Having to choose is what makes no sense to me.

Tshober

08-11-2012, 07:42 AM

Having to choose is what makes no sense to me.

Exactly correct. The current system forces you into a choice between two bad options and does so unnecessarily. Without renown decay, you would be free to choose the far better option, none of the above.

Tshober

08-11-2012, 07:48 AM

Really why do you want to get to lv 100?

For the same reasons you want to, minus the part about wanting others not to. Why does anyone want to level up their characters? It's basic human nature to want to progress in these games. It is also basic human nature to not like it when someone takes away progress you have earned.

AeliusMaximus

08-11-2012, 11:20 AM

Exactly correct. The current system forces you into a choice between two bad options and does so unnecessarily. Without renown decay, you would be free to choose the far better option, none of the above.

I wouldn't say unnecessarily ...it's pretty obvious Turbine's idea is to make $$$ selling guild renown pots. Therefore, they instituted the decay so that it's a constant struggle to keep your guild level. I have to say I'd be quite surprised if they are actually making any significant $$$ off renown elixirs. I personally don't know anyone who buys those things out of the ddo store. I'm not anti-profit or anything like that, just seems that in this case its bad design and a bit of an over-reach. But I suppose if I'm wrong about that and they ARE making big money off it ... I doubt it will ever change.

Tshober

08-11-2012, 11:35 AM

I wouldn't say unnecessarily ...it's pretty obvious Turbine's idea is to make $$$ selling guild renown pots. Therefore, they instituted the decay so that it's a constant struggle to keep your guild level. I have to say I'd be quite surprised if they are actually making any significant $$$ off renown elixirs. I personally don't know anyone who buys those things out of the ddo store. I'm not anti-profit or anything like that, just seems that in this case its bad design and a bit of an over-reach. But I suppose if I'm wrong about that and they ARE making big money off it ... I doubt it will ever change.

I did not take into consideration the potential DDO store sales involved. But it seems to me that if they allowed all guilds to progress they would make some additional store sales on astral diamonds, which are quite costly, for all those ship upgrades. But those are just one time purchases for each guild so maybe that would not offset the renown bonus pot sales.

HungarianRhapsody

08-11-2012, 11:37 AM

Why?

Why should so much effort be put into simply choosing who you hang out with in a silly video game? Should we all be this selective when choosing who we generally eat lunch with at work or school or who we drink with in a tavern?

I put effort into choosing who I hang out with in a video game and I put effort into choosing who I eat lunch with and who I drink with in a tavern.

I like to surround myself with good people who are funny and honest and decent and who generally like me and whom I like myself. If you don't want to go to the effort of spending time with people that you're actually compatible with because you're more interested in advancement than friendship and compatibility, that's fine too, but please don't expect anyone else to share your opinion.

Tshober

08-11-2012, 12:20 PM

If you don't want to go to the effort of spending time with people that you're actually compatible with because you're more interested in advancement than friendship and compatibility, that's fine too, but please don't expect anyone else to share your opinion.

Wow. That's a bit harsh. Do you always make a lot of assumptions about people's motivations when they have said nothing of the kind? How do you know that his motivation for not being choosy about who he hangs out with is that he is only interested in advancement? Did you consider that maybe he just wants to be friendly with everyone, or at least with as many people as possible?

WhiiteWolf

08-11-2012, 12:50 PM

Hello Everyone,

Wow!! have to say there are some good comments here and I new that this Guild thing was still an issue so I can only hope people still comment on this thread for days to come.

I can't quote evrything I read so far as it would just be a re-hash of the whole thread.... YIKES!!! .....

The only thing I would like to add s this, and please forgive me I don't want to take away from the very good points being made here nor the ideas as to how to rectify/re-vamp this broken system.

Even though it is a reality, we have to stop thinking about Guilds in terms of " Hardcore ", " Casual ",
" Social " etc they are Guilds period. This type of classification could be put on to a persons toon as well, but the point of playing is to level up ( And have some fun doing it ) and achieve a goal for your toon or your ship.

To all those people who don't think that the renown system atm is an issue how would you like it if you leveled your toon choose all this cool feats, upped your skills, and choose a new Epic line to follow, then the next day you came on and that milestone was taken away from you? And you had to do this over and over and over again. I can say for %100 you would be on the forums and voicing your opinion and wanting something done.

As for the Guild I'm in we work really hard to try and maintain what we have, I feel that the renown system should be done no different then if you were leveling your toon, when you get enough XP you level and it all starts over again.

Why couldn't the decay be coded to calculate at different percentages for different levels, ( Just and Example )Eg. While trying to reach level 60 it is calculated at 2%, when you reach 61 it all starts over you keep the level You may have struggled to get and it all starts over agin but decay may be 2.5 % until you reach 62, something like that. At least if it was done this way people that aren't on alot or guilds that want to have that choice of not getting rid of people soely out of wanting to just level can become the guilds they started out to be and help the new people and give them a home.

For the Guild I am in if we could get all the members on at one time ( Impossible for different time zones ) then getting levels wouldn't be that bad but still a slow process, and it isn't that we can't get a level, for us it may take longer then others 2 steps forward 1 step back but we can get there but it is beacause of the calculations that it can't be maintained for any longer then the next decay. For ALL the Guilds In DDO but mostly those who get their level(s) through shear determination should be able to at least keep there achivement. Then start the process all over again. Under this idea there will be without question a point that any Guild will get to " The Wall " However when a guild gets to that point at least they will have a choice as well,

Do we stay at this point, which will be a viable choice because they wouldn't have to worry about decay as they would never lose that level, or they choose to keep going, now they can relax a little and have the choice of recruiting new blood, and calling back some of those casuals that they may have kicked because of a borked system, and become a real "Guild " and start having fun again,. The only worry a guild would have in this scenerio would be " The Wall " which is hopefully solved by new blood again, however the Guild will always be growing and being infused with new people to play with, socially, casually, if your a hardcore player, a role player ect, and you would probably never have to post for a Raid other then putting it in Guild chat.

Anyway I probably could write more but I think I got my idea across, thanks to all those who posted thus far to be honest I never expected as many pages as there are I only hope that there will be more,

I found DDO completely by accident several years ago and I decided to try it out and I am happy I did, as I have met and made new friends on here that I normally couldn't have done simpily because of where I live, I have played with people from all over which is totally cool, I don't want these meetings and friendships to be determined because I am a casual player, or that I'm not a " Hardcore " player who puts more meaning into getting renown over a new friend or just a good Guildy that I quest with regularly.

When I ( We ) started we were all noobs and some of us were lucky enough to be given a chance in a Guild, but because of the renown system and a more undertanding of what happens to ships at higher levels those chance are few and far now.

Lets keep voicing our disgust and get ddo back to have actuall Guilds ( family of friends ) other then coming on and treating members like workers,

" Well Sorry, thx for all your hardwork you did getting renown, but we have to kick you as you didn't reach your quota and your bringing the ship down "

Cheers All, " May The Wind Be Always At Your Back "

Sincerely, W.W.

slarden

08-11-2012, 02:36 PM

Just get rid of decay to help out the large guilds and small guilds.

Dirac

08-11-2012, 03:10 PM

sigh, so many words when so few are necessary.

Any game mechanic where you have active participation without advancement or chance of advancement is broken. Obviously.

damiangerous

08-11-2012, 04:22 PM

If not for guild decay every guild could hit 100. What would be the point in having levels?
What's the point in having character levels?

Fomori

08-11-2012, 05:12 PM

damiangerous

08-11-2012, 05:36 PM

A lot of people put that Turbine is at fault for "making them choose", but they are the ones making that choice, not Turbine. Thus the onus of blame falls to the chooser not the one who made the system.
That makes absolutely no sense. If make you choose between getting punched in the face or kicked in the crotch, whose fault is it when you're in pain?

Granted the system could use some tweaking but if you choose A over B, dont blame the person that said you could have either if you suddenly want both...
When it's pointlessly poor game design and a fun killing unnecessary choice I most certainly will.

Drakesan

08-11-2012, 05:45 PM

Really why do you want to get to lv 100? You have all the goodies at lv 70, except some minor bonus such as +1% xp shrine, and the guilds tath have this worked a lot harder than you to get tath, and should have theyr reward. Oh, i forgot to say, there is a global advice!!! Yes, i want a global advice because i had A LOT less work than wath the current lv 90+ guilds had.

Also you should know tath the guild lv is in its essence to show the hardcoreness of a guild. Yes, you can say taths elitism, but why in the world a guild tath get 4000 BASE renown per player/day should have the same lv of a guild tath have troubles to get 1000 base renown per player/day?

I think I understand your post, so my reply is that I never said I wanted to get to level 100. I said I wanted a means of keeping what it is my guild has attained without it decaying away.

Drakesan

08-11-2012, 05:47 PM

I wouldn't say unnecessarily ...it's pretty obvious Turbine's idea is to make $$$ selling guild renown pots. Therefore, they instituted the decay so that it's a constant struggle to keep your guild level. I have to say I'd be quite surprised if they are actually making any significant $$$ off renown elixirs. I personally don't know anyone who buys those things out of the ddo store. I'm not anti-profit or anything like that, just seems that in this case its bad design and a bit of an over-reach. But I suppose if I'm wrong about that and they ARE making big money off it ... I doubt it will ever change.

Can you imagine the amount of guild renown pots they would sell if the buyers KNEW you would not lose levels once you have attained it? The mind boggles....

Now, it would be nice to find out the number of guild renown pots vs xp pots sold in the store....

Drakesan

08-11-2012, 05:53 PM

As I pointed out when the guild changes were proposed, its existence is causing rifts in the playerbase. There comes a point when people will think the numbers next to their name and the buffs that come with it are more important than having a solid group of people they call "guildies" to group with.

A lot of people put that Turbine is at fault for "making them choose", but they are the ones making that choice, not Turbine. Thus the onus of blame falls to the chooser not the one who made the system. Granted the system could use some tweaking but if you choose A over B, dont blame the person that said you could have either if you suddenly want both...

Would I care if they made the renown decay less, nopers. I wouldnt mind it in fact, but I think its also ok as it stands. That is because I dont have an entitled attitude to have a level 100 guild, not do I blame others for the choices that I have made, even when they are poor.

Again, the point is being missed: I, and many others, do NOT feel entitled to hit guild level 100 in any way. However, because we have a large amount of casual players (and yes, they are important to DDO's health too), we have hit a wall that no matter what happens, we will NOT advance guild levels, and be able to get a little better in the airship and amenity department.

We will gladly work for those accomplishments. We are NOT in any way asking that somene GIVE us anything. We are asking that overly harsh PUNISHMENT for having casual players in our guild gets revisited so that it is not so harsh.

Drakesan

08-11-2012, 06:03 PM

..if you cant log on at least once a day or go on a
renoun bender every few days to make up for the renoun loss for the times when
your not on,how are yoiu helping the guild?

This is also, I feel, a strong misconception as to this game. I am here to have fun, have a lot of casual players, as well as highly active players, and those in between. As soon as you make a requirement to play a certain way, work towards something you don't necessarily want to do instead of having FUN playing this game, then you really lose the basic reason you are on DDO to begin with.

However, if a company rep gets on here, or anywhere, and says that this is not going to change, then we are all asking for a change to this anti-social mechanism for nothing. I choose to think otherwise, that this renown decay resulted in an unintended consequence, and that they want to fix it. But do so in a way that does not invalidate those guilds that have attained those upper levels, and still allow us lower level guilds to keep advancing, however slowly, and keep our member base intact, casual or not.

But that's just me.

chance2000

08-11-2012, 06:30 PM

I would like decay to change some.
We are now level 72 with around 30 active members.
Our decay is just under 25,000 a day.
They decay is based on active accounts not total members in a guild.
One of my main characters I run a lot Smigit. I do not buff him often.
I do not kick inactive members until they have been away a year.
I figure after a year they are not coming back.

Somebody claimed this:
btw... anyone who creates a Vet Status II character [lvl 7] then starts out by going back to Korthos then Harbor for favor & some xp will not NOT be getting much, if any Renown even though they are actively playing.

Wrong I do favor runs with higher than level 7's and they pull renown from both areas.
I figure if a level 20 is getting renown in those places a level 7 will.

As for a 13 player guild at level 70 the decay would be 12,420.
Decay is not a factor until level 26
I figure my guild is going to hit the wall at 75.
Would I like us to get to 100?Sure
Will it upset me if we do not?No
For me the airship is about convenience.
If going with out a +2 stat shrine gimps your character. It is time to reroll.
Same goes for the resist shrines.

Tshober

08-11-2012, 09:20 PM

A lot of people put that Turbine is at fault for "making them choose", but they are the ones making that choice, not Turbine. Thus the onus of blame falls to the chooser not the one who made the system. Granted the system could use some tweaking but if you choose A over B, dont blame the person that said you could have either if you suddenly want both.

The problem with that logic is that Turbine's decay policy is preventing us from choosing the far better option C, none of the above. Without renown decay, a much, much better set of choices becomes available. So it really is the policy that is at fault here because the policy limits your choices to only bad ones. And without the policy, good choices become available.

Tshober

08-11-2012, 09:54 PM

Somebody claimed this:
btw... anyone who creates a Vet Status II character [lvl 7] then starts out by going back to Korthos then Harbor for favor & some xp will not NOT be getting much, if any Renown even though they are actively playing.

Wrong I do favor runs with higher than level 7's and they pull renown from both areas.
I figure if a level 20 is getting renown in those places a level 7 will.

Somebody is correct, and it's not you. If you (or anyone in your party) are too high to get exp for a quest, you get no renown trophies in the chests. The same is true of essences.

And, in addition to that scenario, there are many ways to actively play DDO that give little or no renown. PvP, DDO events, challenges, over level favor or loot runs, slayers, all give very little or no renown rewards. Renown is a very poor way to measure DDO activity. But despite its flaws, I am okay with using renown for leveling up guilds, as long as you eliminate renown decay.

Gremmlynn

08-12-2012, 04:17 AM

Somebody is correct, and it's not you. If you (or anyone in your party) are too high to get exp for a quest, you get no renown trophies in the chests. The same is true of essences.

And, in addition to that scenario, there are many ways to actively play DDO that give little or no renown. PvP, DDO events, challenges, over level favor or loot runs, slayers, all give very little or no renown rewards. Renown is a very poor way to measure DDO activity. But despite its flaws, I am okay with using renown for leveling up guilds, as long as you eliminate renown decay.Yes. As near as I can tell the chance to get either renown or essences from chests (or end rewards in the case of renown) is reduced by the over level xp penalty or something close to it. Kill renown seems to remain the same, but isn't really significant enough to bother farming.

Tshober

08-12-2012, 05:52 AM

sigh, so many words when so few are necessary.

Any game mechanic where you have active participation without advancement or chance of advancement is broken. Obviously.

Exactly! An excellent point made very clearly and concisely.

+1

chance2000

08-12-2012, 11:38 AM

Somebody is correct, and it's not you. If you (or anyone in your party) are too high to get exp for a quest, you get no renown trophies in the chests. The same is true of essences.

And, in addition to that scenario, there are many ways to actively play DDO that give little or no renown. PvP, DDO events, challenges, over level favor or loot runs, slayers, all give very little or no renown rewards. Renown is a very poor way to measure DDO activity. But despite its flaws, I am okay with using renown for leveling up guilds, as long as you eliminate renown decay.

I get renown do not know what problems you may have. Impressives? no
Tales? Yep
Deeds yep

Tshober

08-12-2012, 11:48 AM

I get renown do not know what problems you may have. Impressives? no
Tales? Yep
Deeds yep

Then perhaps I am just incredibly unlucky when I do those things, because I don't get them.

Viisari

08-12-2012, 01:33 PM

This is how character level vs. quest level affects renown. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3141529&postcount=116)

This is also the reason why the old epics were so good for renown, they were level 25 quests and you were running them at lvl 20.

Some more:
1 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3029224&postcount=190)
2 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3141693&postcount=128)
3 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3141971&postcount=160)
4 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3029823&postcount=196)

I do feel that the release of the expansion pack with the epic levels and the meaning of epic itself being reworked has had a significant effect on how you get renown from epics compared to how it was before.

Tshober

08-12-2012, 03:30 PM

Also id like to say tath a large guild with almost only casual players (lets say, 4 hours a week) will easly hit 60's and there is where the good stuff is. More than that is just a very hard to get very small reward, and is a challenge for the most active players.

Guild levels are very important to many DDO players. Active players will leave a guild that is not leveling up. A good number of players have left mine for exactly that reason. Any guild that helps out significant numbers of new players or has significant numbers of casual/social players in its membership will stagnate and will start losing its more active players to other guilds that have already filtered out those new/casual/social players. The leaders of such guilds have two choices. Either kick out the casual/social players and level up or lose their more active players and drop levels. Since they are going to lose players that they don't want to lose either way, most of them will choose to kick out the casual/social players and level up. Any guild that makes the other choice, will lose their more active players and drop levels and evenutally stagnate again at a lower level. They will be punished forever for helping out new players and for providing a home for casual/social players.

Not only is that unjust and anti-social, it is unhealthy for DDO. It means casual/social players are unwelcome in most guilds and any guild that will take them in is puniished forever for doing so. Other MMO's do not have guild systems that punish guilds for having new players or casual/social players in their membership. One could hardly blame such players for leaving DDO for a gaming environment that does not discriminate against them and shun them. We should be making new players and casual/social players feel welcome in DDO so they will want to stay and the game will grow and expand, but instead we have a guild decay policy that encourages exactly the opposite.

Oliphant

08-12-2012, 04:10 PM

My guild is stuck at Level 56... and it hurts everyday. :(....

Tshober

08-12-2012, 04:10 PM

Come on devs! I know you want to help out guilds that help out new players. That was what you said Build Your Guild was all about. Unfortunately what Build Your Guild really did was help out guilds that have lots of people who reincarnate all the time. But your intentions were good, at least as stated in the goals of the event. If you really want to help out guilds that help out new players and casual/social players, then get serious about it and ditch this horribly anti-social renown decay system that discriminates against the very same people you said you wanted to help with Build Your Guild.

Machination

08-12-2012, 09:54 PM

I don't understand all the fuss about renown decay being anti-social. My social game is my friends list and the chat channels I join, not only my guild.

My guild is also a social circle, but not my only social circle. My guildies are just like myself, responsible for maintaining our guild level and doing one's part toward decay.

My friends are just that, people i run with often, many are not guildies.

What's the problem again?

I like the ship buffs. But if it came to a choice of either losing the ship buffs or being forced to keep renown decay, I would reluctantly choose to lose the ship buffs. Renown decay is so horribly anti-social and is doing such harm to DDO that it just has to go. Fortunately there are other options and so such a choice should not be necessary.

Tshober

08-12-2012, 10:09 PM

What's the problem again?

Scroll up about 3 posts for a pretty good description of the problem. Or better yet read the entire thread, if you can spare the time.

HungarianRhapsody

08-12-2012, 11:43 PM

What's the problem again?

The problem is that too many players (both ones in charge of guilds and also "rank and file" guild members) think that guild level is significant after the Elemental Resist shrines. They then behave poorly in order to satisfy their need for unnecessary buffs and guild levels that don't do anything significant.

This is also one of the reasons why people often seem unable to get into a quest in less than 5 minutes after the first person steps in because they have to run back to the ship to rebuff even though it's for a level 7 quests that they're just hitting for favor at level 18.

Nestroy

08-13-2012, 12:04 AM

Guild levels are very important to many DDO players. Active players will leave a guild that is not leveling up. A good number of players have left mine for exactly that reason. Any guild that helps out significant numbers of new players or has significant numbers of casual/social players in its membership will stagnate and will start losing its more active players to other guilds that have already filtered out those new/casual/social players. The leaders of such guilds have two choices. Either kick out the casual/social players and level up or lose their more active players and drop levels. Since they are going to lose players that they don't want to lose either way, most of them will choose to kick out the casual/social players and level up. Any guild that makes the other choice, will lose their more active players and drop levels and evenutally stagnate again at a lower level. They will be punished forever for helping out new players and for providing a home for casual/social players.

Not only is that unjust and anti-social, it is unhealthy for DDO. It means casual/social players are unwelcome in most guilds and any guild that will take them in is puniished forever for doing so. Other MMO's do not have guild systems that punish guilds for having new players or casual/social players in their membership. One could hardly blame such players for leaving DDO for a gaming environment that does not discriminate against them and shun them. We should be making new players and casual/social players feel welcome in DDO so they will want to stay and the game will grow and expand, but instead we have a guild decay policy that encourages exactly the opposite.

This ^

Come on devs! I know you want to help out guilds that help out new players. That was what you said Build Your Guild was all about. Unfortunately what Build Your Guild really did was help out guilds that have lots of people who reincarnate all the time. But your intentions were good, at least as stated in the goals of the event. If you really want to help out guilds that help out new players and casual/social players, then get serious about it and ditch this horribly anti-social renown decay system that discriminates against the very same people you said you wanted to help with Build Your Guild.

This ^

As again (I already got this straight several pages ago) I am not against decay. Any guild without activity whatsoever should get hit hard by decay into oblivion. Any guild without activity for more than, let´s say, 3 months should get disbanded automatically. But there has to be a way even a social/casual player guild can eventually reach higher guild levels.

If decay has to exist (for whatever reason the DEV-gods see), decay should get a menace for guilds over level 80 or even 90. Until then this should be background noise even for a social/casual guild. Make decay based on the overall powerlevel of guilds on the server (like a gauss bell curve) with only the top 5% being able to reach lv. 95+ and only the top of the tops being able to reach 100. This makes for power guilds to having something to go at.

WhiiteWolf

08-13-2012, 01:36 PM

The problem is that too many players (both ones in charge of guilds and also "rank and file" guild members) think that guild level is significant after the Elemental Resist shrines. They then behave poorly in order to satisfy their need for unnecessary buffs and guild levels that don't do anything significant.

This is also one of the reasons why people often seem unable to get into a quest in less than 5 minutes after the first person steps in because they have to run back to the ship to rebuff even though it's for a level 7 quests that they're just hitting for favor at level 18.

Hi HR,

If that is how you look at it that is your choice, but I think your missing something, And to all those who say that shrines and ship level don't matter that your friends list is important etc, yes thats right but....

How would you like coming on with your level 25 toon and play with your friends but everyday you kept losing your XP, Great your being social and your showing your buds Male/Female how much you injoy their company but if you continue not to do anything to off set the decay that toon you spent so much time on perfecting to level 25 will potentally lose all the levels back to 1 if you didn't do anything to combat it.

I understand the reason for decay however no Guild has the choice to just stop at a certain level, If they want to keep what they are satified with, or just want to kick back and be a truely social Guild and just want to give new players a home.

Under the current decay system, that satisfied level 65 Guild who is happy where they are could in essence just stop and not pay attention to getting renown, but give it a few months and all those perks they worked so hard for and are intitled to will just fade away due to inactivity of not accomulating renown.

It's not the fact of wanting something for free or making it easier to get so " All " can injoy, it's working hard to make a goal and at least keeping what everyone worked so hard to get.

At least if the Guild leveling was set up allow Guilds to keep what they earn you may find that there are many out there that would be satified where there Guild is,

No-one not even you would except coming on DDO and watching all your hard work fade away especially if the system was the same on your toons. Sure you may still come on with your friends in your list but I can almost be certain that your attitude would be different with all of you because you wouldn't be coming on to kick back and relax and help out people, it would be "Ok People heres what were doing to night, we have to milk these quests because they give the most XP, we have to keep our toons at level 25 "

Something along that line.....

Cheers! W.W.

Daerius of the Blessed Blades

08-13-2012, 02:49 PM

I didn't want to start a new thread, but I just went through this issue with my guild. Hope my comments to the developers don't get lost in this long thread...

I thought I would share a story in hopes that the developers, product managers, and marketing managers would find it useful. It is a tale of the effect the current Guild Renown system is having on your players and guild leaders.

I am one of the founders of The Circle of Night (http://circleofnight.com) on Ghallanda. We’ve been together for almost three years, although almost all of our officers and founders have been playing together since beta, or product launch over six years ago in different guilds. The goals of our guild have been end game focused, and we have traditionally grown our guild by taking on new, excited players, teaching them how to be “Prepared for Completion” (a motto of ours…), creating viable builds, collecting the right gear, etc. As stated above, most of us have formed real friendships in game, and that is what has kept us coming back to Dungeons and Dragons Online – even when other games lure us some of us away for brief “flings”.

We’ve known the way that Guild Renown works, but we decided based on our history to allow players with compatible personalities, or old virtual friends who have left the guild, to hang around in our ranks. Several other casual players, who like to run with like-minded folks, have been in our ranks as well. These casual players log on every 1-3 weeks, play for a few days at a time, and we welcomed them into our groups when they could.

However, a funny thing happened in our steady, but slow climb in renown. We hit the point of stagnation that many others have reported. Ours was right on the cusp of Guild level 74 & 75 where we found that we were just treading water. So I took the top 25 ranked guilds on Ghallanda (based on renown) and I extrapolated the number of accounts they likely had in guild (based on our own average of total characters in guild / # of accounts (we had 50 active accounts). I found that with only 2 exceptions, the guilds either had 20-30 more active players than we had, or were likely in the small to medium guild category, scoring significant bonuses. I then asked a few guildees to average the amount of renown they achieve in an hour and recorded the averages. Finally, I calculated our renown gains/losses based on the formulas in DDOWiki, including corrections & clarifications posted by Vanshilar in this outstanding post: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4602705&postcount=46)

I came to the conclusion that if we decided that renown was important to us, then we had to change our guild recruiting strategies. And change we did.

I began the painstaking process of linking every character in our guild with an account. This was difficult because of (1) lack of data, or anonymous data on some characters, in my.DDO.com and (2) guildees who had ‘snuck’ in with multiple accounts (usually a paid account and a free one with bank toons, etc). To make a long story short, we ended up purging 44 accounts, with surprisingly little renown drop, and are now down to 34 active accounts. Another 5 will probably be dropped this week, but we are trying to contact the players first before just dropping them.

The end result is, as a result of the system Turbine has driven a guild dedicated to building relationships and helping new players succeed into one that only recruits active, end game players. We are now watching guild renown as closely as we have watched gear for raids, flagging characters for endgame, etc. Many players have said it in numerous posts on this forum, but we lived it – 44 casual accounts have just had their gaming experience diminished as an unintended consequence of the guild renown system.

Also, the tools given to guild leaders to manage their guilds are atrocious. A few comments:

(1) Determine which characters in guild are tied to individual accounts. Generate a random name, like first four letters of the guild and 4 random numbers if you want to hide the login names for privacy reasons, but we should know who belongs to who.

(2) I believe it is IMPERATIVE to know how much renown individual accounts are achieving. You cannot manage the system if you cannot gauge individual contributions to overall renown.

(3) The highest ratio of renown/hour seems to occur in quests in the level 11-17 ratio. It is likely due to the fact that those quests are farmed more, and as such are completed faster, but I have recorded a sharp drop off in renown/hour ratio once I began running strictly Epics and Eveningstar content. I believe the Epic quests should drop the highest renown awards, and it should grow progressively from lower to upper levels. If that is not the intent, I’d love to understand the logic behind that.

We have let our former members know that they are still welcome in our groups, in our out-of-game Mumble server, and on our ship for buffs/altars, but many of them still feel like they are on the outside looking in. I doubt that alienating casual players from participating in upper level guilds was Turbine’s intention, but it is the consequence of the system, which appears neglected by Turbine since it's inception.

android666

08-13-2012, 03:07 PM

"No-one not even you would except coming on DDO and watching all your hard work fade away especially if the system was the same on your toons. Sure you may still come on with your friends in your list but I can almost be certain that your attitude would be different with all of you because you wouldn't be coming on to kick back and relax and help out people, it would be "Ok People heres what were doing to night, we have to milk these quests because they give the most XP, we have to keep our toons at level 25 "

i said about the same thing and post was deleted quickly

But think about all the complaints that would be posted if that did happened.(EXCELLENT POINT)

GUILD RENOWN LOSS SHOULD GO
As a guild leader if i could see the renown gain of each player i would think about dumping anyone that dosen't
get more then 10000 renown a week !
Great idea but i cant do that,not evan for the good of the guild.
Well i guess will be talking about this for a few more YEARS.

HunterjWizzard

08-13-2012, 03:52 PM

My guild consists basically of me and my best friend, he lives in another country now so this is how we hang out. We're both contract workers in different parts of the IT industry so for us sometimes we have a week to just play all day, other times we go 6 months without logging in. That's just the long and short of it.

We WERE looking forward to eventually having a nice, powerful airship, and being able to use all the buffs(especially the 5% XP shrine buff) so that we could play whenever we wanted, access higher-difficulty content, etc, without having to dig for pugs or **** anyone off when real-life intervenes(as often happens when you are an adult with a full-time job).

Thanks to renown-decay, our guild is effectively capped at 27, so we decided to just stop doing it all together. We leave the trophies in the chests and pick anything else from the rewards list. Our guild has no level.

We're also starting to look around for a different game all together, we're pretty ****ed about the amount of effort we wasted. If we'd known we were never getting past 27, we wouldn't have bothered working our way up to 20. Hell we wouldn't have worked at all in the first place.

Viisari

08-13-2012, 04:10 PM

WhiiteWolf

08-14-2012, 01:06 AM

Hello All,

Very nice post there tbrazile, I would think that the Devs would welcome good as well as sincere info like yours. I just don't understand it myself. Here DDO has a Forum in which people can share their experiences and actully help Devs make something better but they just don't seem to pay attention to people who " Lived it "

They have to know that the current system is flawed, and if I was a developer, I would be on these forums looking for info just like yours, especially from individuals such as yourself that have been with this game sense Beta, it's people like you that can give a more accurate solution problems like this so it just boggles my mind why they don't seek more people out within the same forums they created.

+5 on your post

Cheers! W.W.

HungarianRhapsody

08-14-2012, 01:13 AM

Major Experience Shrine is a level 93 buff.

That's 40,217,850 guild renown.

If DDO had no renown decay at all, and you two were doing an average of 500 renown per day (probably too generous based on what you describe).

It would still take you 80 435 days to get that shrine. Or 220 years if you will.

So no, even without any renown decay in this game you would've never gotten that shrine. Unless you two lead exceptionally long lives.

But they could pretend that they were making progress and that's important to some people, apparently.

WhiiteWolf

08-14-2012, 06:05 PM

Hello All,

Kind of off topic but how are these threads sorted, on would think that the last reply would put it on the first page, hard to believe everytime I looked lately it on the 3rd page, are there that many peopleposting things to push it ahead that far?

Well I'll keep posting something just so people can see it on the first page especially any devs that frequesnt the pages so they know it's there.

Cheers! All

W.W.

WhiiteWolf

08-15-2012, 12:00 PM

Hello Everyone,

This is all people and Guild Leaders and officers have to say about this issue, ever sense you played this game in beta.

Nothing will ever get done if all people do is come on here and say a few words and then just let it beyond, those people that see this thread and think there isn't a problem must be the ones that don't have a Guild and leech off of other peoples hard work.

Cheers! W.W.

WhiiteWolf

08-15-2012, 04:50 PM

Hey All,

How is everyone today,

I really don't want to see this get put on the back burner as I feel it has been ignored long enough, so I went through the posts and sorted by views anything I could find dealing with this Decay/renown issue.

I supose I am putting this here more for the Devs then anything, just so they can see with their own eyes. so the followinf links I found in the order of views.

44103 Views, 247 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=268181

7222 views, 193 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=379449

3941 views, 224 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=387947

3528 views, 69 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=384709

2846 views, 41 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=258737

1217 views, 23 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=386085

835 views, 13 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=379435

480 views, 5 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=387749

449 views, 6 replies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383307

Well thats over 100 pages so I woill have to say that that is it for threads on Guild decay/renown

64621 total views, 821 replies

I have to say that is rather sad, for a problem that so many voice their opinion about, however in defense of such numbers the reason I feel that these numbers are so low is it takes no time at all before important threads like these get pushed further and further to the back pages thus all but forgotten.

How many people would do what I just done to put these links here, scanning through 100+ threads if people come on here and scan the first 6 pages I would be surprised, 4 at the most, the others are just forgotten, just where most of the important issues are,why because they get pushed to the beyond because people start usless threads, that probably only see 2-3 replies about something the can ask in game on the advice channel.

Cheers! W.W.