Post U14 Pally 2WF builds

[eachna_gislin]

I want to build a pure paladin 2WF for my first TR. I've been reading over old threads trying to come up with a base build to try.

However, most builds are reasonably old and the game has changed tremendously just in the 3 months I've been playing (so I expect it's changed even before then).

I found this:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175020

It's from u9 but I expect there might be some useful seeds in it to build a modern Pally 2WF DPS machine. Any suggestions on how to modify it to be effective now would be appreciated.

I really like the idea of playing a drow, with the understanding is that a drow with rapiers is at least close to a human with khopeshes. If that's no longer true I'd rather change races than give up 2WF.

I have +2 tomes as a base for everything. I have +3 tomes for Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 275
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 18
Will: 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 15 22 22
Dexterity 16 18 18
Constitution 12 14 14
Intelligence 10 12 12
Wisdom 8 10 10
Charisma 17 20 23

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 16
<<< You can drop the +2 int Tome if you are willing to give up UMD... >>>
<<< Otherwise, the above tomes are required, the below are just improvements >>>
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 3 13.5 13.5
Jump 3.5 17 17
Use Magic Device 6 17.5 17.5

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV


Here are some stat modifications by someone else tweaking the same drow build:


I've been thinking over how to distribute the 34 and 36 point builds, because I plan on reincarnating Byakuren when that comes.

Current (Drow, 32p equivalent) base stats: 15/16/12/10/8/17

My thoughts are I can either raise con 2 points total over the course of 34-36, but that seems not worthwhile to reincarnate twice for 20 hp. So here's my other option:

Drow, 34p equivalent base stats: 17/15/12/10/8/16

This assumes that by the time I reincarnate I will be able to get my hands on a +4 cha tome. If I do, I won't eat it at that point. In fact, I will be saving it until my 36p reincarnate. DM3 with +2, DM4 with +4.

+2 dex tome for ITWF/GTWF, will get it a bit late but no biggie.

Drow, 36p equivalent base stats: 17/15/12/10/8/16 + 2 unused.

I see a few choices here. 1. Add two to wisdom, get a little more sp. 2. Drop dex to 14. This assumes you've saved a +3 dex tome. You will get itwf/gtwf late, but you can raise str to 18 base.

[Kinerd]

The way I look at is this. You can put everything you have into DPS on a paladin and still be behind a fighter or barb (and obviously way behind a rogue), so why not trade a bit of DPS to maximize the things that set you apart; for instance, self-healing and survivability?

To that end, I would toss KotC and Divine Might (at least ranks 3 and 4) for sure, I would also toss Extra Smite 3 and 4 and Exalted/DS 2-3 if necessary. I would go for HotD and Devotion instead. (Ideally I would go human to get Human Versatility, Improved Recovery, and the beautiful extra feat, or if you are comfortable getting the 21 and 24 feats half-elf for moar hamp or moar DPS.) I would also swap Extend for Maximize. Yes your DPS spells get a little more annoying, but your self heals get way stronger. Lay on Hands are lovely but without a kickstand healer you will rapidly deplete them.

[maddmatt70]

The way I look at is this. You can put everything you have into DPS on a paladin and still be behind a fighter or barb (and obviously way behind a rogue), so why not trade a bit of DPS to maximize the things that set you apart; for instance, self-healing and survivability?
.

I am less certain that what you say here is totally true post update 14. The OP is a newer player who should watch out for having too low hit points which is always a concern on a non evasion build. I personally have respecced my 18 paladin 2 fighter Human Defender of Syberis into a level 20 KOTC Human. Paladins got a little bump this update with the unyielding sentenial smite regeneration and the lay on hand regeneration is nice as well. There are also more evil outsiders this update so pallys are not terrible when you combine smite regeneration with a higher % of evil outsiders.

My pally has 2 tiers of racial healing amp, 30% and 20% healing amp gear which combined with quicken and eventually when I get the lay on hands regeneration twisted should be great self sufficiency. With quite a bit of work I start with 675ish hp before the destiny enhancements and with a pally's great saves is sufficient.

While a pally has smites a pally is pretty powerful. I am working on Legendary Dreadnaught and plan to dual wielding warhammers from the new raid. I also plan to test out fury of the wild as well for the mega smites. I am optimistic that I can compete with top flight two weapon fighting fighters or the like when I get everything all ready.

I would recommend if going for dps to maximize the smite and divine sacrifice lines and to get as high a divine might as possible and to go for KOTC.

DOS are not dps characters really so unless a player plans to tank with a DOS pally I recommend either build for dps or to make a different class.

[maddmatt70]

I would also swap Extend for Maximize. Yes your DPS spells get a little more annoying, but your self heals get way stronger. Lay on Hands are lovely but without a kickstand healer you will rapidly deplete them.

Quite the contrary lay on hands with the unyielding sentinal lay on hands enhancement will not deplete rapidly. I recommend that at the end game quicken with improved recovery instead of maximize or extend and to wear some light devotion gear.

[Kinerd]

I have not personally tried the LoH regenerating thingie, as I don't have the EDs. The experience I have is with the painfully slow Smite regeneration, and from what I see on the wiki the LoH regeneration is twice as slow at that. I will bow to your empirical knowledge if you are confident they last, but I just don't see it from theory.

I also want to make clear that I wasn't trying to suggest paladins were terrible DPS, just that they were nevertheless inferior, so why not focus on where they are enormously superior?

[maddmatt70]

I have not personally tried the LoH regenerating thingie, as I don't have the EDs. The experience I have is with the painfully slow Smite regeneration, and from what I see on the wiki the LoH regeneration is twice as slow at that. I will bow to your empirical knowledge if you are confident they last, but I just don't see it from theory.

I also want to make clear that I wasn't trying to suggest paladins were terrible DPS, just that they were nevertheless inferior, so why not focus on where they are enormously superior?

You do not have the ED's? Sigh. Man in unyielding sentinial second tier there is +3 smites and +30% increase in smite regeneration which makes a significant difference for pallys. Is it enough to get pallys back in the conversation as a dps character? I do not know, but it sure is intriguing enough to try out and enough when coupled with a decent amount of evil outsiders in an update that I personally will not tell someone pallys are lousy dps like I did prior to this update. KOTC overall > dps then Hunter of the Dead so if someone wants to try out pallys in dps then they should go KOTC.

[ShadowFlash]

.... so if someone wants to try out pallys in dps then they should go KOTC.

That's what I've been wanting to hear, thanks! Working on a build right now that simply cannot afford the feat cost of DoS for what I want to do with it. My only alternative is KotC, but doing some research, all I can find is how horrible it is for DPS, and "no good reason not to go DoS". I'll post the build in a few days (still hashing out some details), but it IS a TWF DPS specced paladin with a very nice trick up it's sleeve ;)

ShadowFlash

[maddmatt70]

That's what I've been wanting to hear, thanks! Working on a build right now that simply cannot afford the feat cost of DoS for what I want to do with it. My only alternative is KotC, but doing some research, all I can find is how horrible it is for DPS, and "no good reason not to go DoS". I'll post the build in a few days (still hashing out some details), but it IS a TWF DPS specced paladin with a very nice trick up it's sleeve ;)

ShadowFlash

hmm just as long as you understand that +30% smite regeneration you get in epic levels and it is best twisted so a little bigger grind. Oh and hit points are important on a pally my pally has 2 barb past lives and 16 starting con.

[ShadowFlash]

hmm just as long as you understand that +30% smite regeneration you get in epic levels and it is best twisted so a little bigger grind. Oh and hit points are important on a pally my pally has 2 barb past lives and 16 starting con.

Yep Yep ;) I won't have the barb PL's (1x cleric PL) and I think I'm set at 15 starting CON and 6 tiers of toughness enhancements...still kinda squishy, but most I can fit in. Almost done with tweaking AP's, but I'm still not quite happy with it. I'll post it tomorrow I think, even though it'll be a tad raw, and I'd appreciate your always subtle critiqueing then :p Basic premise is, like yours, TWFing Mornh's...but I want the capstone for DR-breaking purposes while using them, which makes feats extremely tight if I want OC. Dread for Pulverizer, of course. My biggest problem ATM is mulling over stunning blow, and whether or not my DC's will be usable...so far, fully geared I'm looking at 43-45 DC, which is low IMO, unless I devote epic AP's to STR (which I don't really want to bother with if I can help it).

As far as the regen twist, I don't know if it's absolutely neccessary. I'd still like to fit it in mind you, but with 13 smites per shrine, is 90 secs vs. 63 secs that much more of a game changer?

ShadowFlash

[maddmatt70]

Yep Yep ;) I won't have the barb PL's (1x cleric PL) and I think I'm set at 15 starting CON and 6 tiers of toughness enhancements...still kinda squishy, but most I can fit in. Almost done with tweaking AP's, but I'm still not quite happy with it. I'll post it tomorrow I think, even though it'll be a tad raw, and I'd appreciate your always subtle critiqueing then :p Basic premise is, like yours, TWFing Mornh's...but I want the capstone for DR-breaking purposes while using them, which makes feats extremely tight if I want OC. Dread for Pulverizer, of course. My biggest problem ATM is mulling over stunning blow, and whether or not my DC's will be usable...so far, fully geared I'm looking at 43-45 DC, which is low IMO, unless I devote epic AP's to STR (which I don't really want to bother with if I can help it).

As far as the regen twist, I don't know if it's absolutely neccessary. I'd still like to fit it in mind you, but with 13 smites per shrine, is 90 secs vs. 63 secs that much more of a game changer?

ShadowFlash

Oh its big.. Play around with it more. So many more smites. Yeahs :). I am pure level 20 paladin as well after respecc. Right now do not have OC I would like it but have trouble justifying taking cleave, great cleave as well. Still trying to figure out feats, but right now twf, itwf, gtwf, power attack, barbarian past life, quicken, icrit slash, icrit bludgeon, quick draw, khopesh proficiency. Might dump khopesh prof, quick draw, and one more feat and go the other route. I would not go for stunning blow really tactics on a pally is best avoided.

[ShadowFlash]

Oh its big.. Play around with it more. So many more smites. Yeahs :). I am pure level 20 paladin as well after respecc. Right now do not have OC I would like it but have trouble justifying taking cleave, great cleave as well. Still trying to figure out feats, but right now twf, itwf, gtwf, power attack, barbarian past life, quicken, icrit slash, icrit bludgeon, quick draw, khopesh proficiency. Might dump khopesh prof, quick draw, and one more feat and go the other route. I would not go for stunning blow really tactics on a pally is best avoided.

I might play with US a tad on my cleric before TRing him into the pally, but I'm pretty disgruntled ATM with my battle-Cleric, so I kinda don't want to play him and skew turbines metrics into showing a happy cleric still playing...it's a silly principle thing for me..lol

I can see khopesh for leveling, but once you have pulverizer, it's simply not needed ( I understand leveling, and I'll probablly take D.axe and swap out, just 'cause I've got a metric ton of them for leveling). Any warhammer with pulverizer equals a khopesh, and mornh is just sooo much metter than any khopesh. With a pally's capstone and DR breaking capabilities, I don't see how DPS can't be top tier. For me, this means OC.
Feats (assuming Human):
Toughness
Power Attack
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Cleave
Great Cleave
Imp. Crit: Bludgeon
Overwhelming Critical
***one more feat***
For me, at least, I can't imagine being warhammer specced, and not going with *stunning blow*...DC's will be lowish, sure, but workable, and not out of range of usability. It won't be no-fail..you'll have to pick your targets and all, but I still see it as useful. If I can get them up to 45ish, then I think I'm OK for duo/trio (dungeon scaling) use at minimum, and selective targeting in full groups. Couple that with anvil, and the inherent stuns on the warhammers themselves, and I think I'll be good.

The idea here, is in order to remain competetive vs. a fighter or barb on DPS, a paladin needs every feat *they* can get AND DR-breaking capabilities. Without OC, it's a wash with Weapons of good...with BOTH, it gives a pally an edge no one else can have...BOTH DR-breaking AND Pulverizer Mornh...it's simply the only way possible. I believe having both DR-breaking AND OC (TWFing Mornh) is the only way for a paladin to compete for top DPS.

If I give up the regen twist, drop CHA a tad for DMII (instead of DMIII) putting my STR odd.... and instead go with primal scream and sense weakness, then DC's for SB sit nicely at 45-46 with no buffs/clickies...with ship buffs, titans grip, rage spell, Inspire Excellence, etc....In perfect raid world scenarios, I can push that to at least 52-53 DC. I think 46 for what I usually run (standing=no clickies or outside buffs) is acceptable, and 50+ for tough content in groups )even short-manned with the right make-up) will be sufficient. Planning for this also gives me trip at the same DC, and every tactic successfully used adds to the Blitz counter. As I plan on playing it as a fighter, I could even throw madstone into the calculations, although with all the recent changes, I hate to plan around it WAI.

Divine Might & Favor will offset rage/power surge, and Human Versatility IV + Dreadnought Haste Boost is just icing on the cake. The goal here is EVERYTHING "they" get + DR-breaking...good native...raid boss arti (metal type). Evil Outsiders of course, it should be no competition ;)

Sorry for the essay...talking these things out helps set my mind straight...possiblly final build tomorrow.

ShadowFlash

[maddmatt70]

I might play with US a tad on my cleric before TRing him into the pally, but I'm pretty disgruntled ATM with my battle-Cleric, so I kinda don't want to play him and skew turbines metrics into showing a happy cleric still playing...it's a silly principle thing for me..lol

I can see khopesh for leveling, but once you have pulverizer, it's simply not needed ( I understand leveling, and I'll probablly take D.axe and swap out, just 'cause I've got a metric ton of them for leveling). Any warhammer with pulverizer equals a khopesh, and mornh is just sooo much metter than any khopesh. With a pally's capstone and DR breaking capabilities, I don't see how DPS can't be top tier. For me, this means OC.
Feats (assuming Human):
Toughness
Power Attack
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Cleave
Great Cleave
Imp. Crit: Bludgeon
Overwhelming Critical
***one more feat***
For me, at least, I can't imagine being warhammer specced, and not going with *stunning blow*...h

Yeah what you list is where I might go with the feats. I have a lot of great khopeshes, but only one pulveriser at the moment so still trying to get a second one and seeing how it plays out then may respec towards this. Teh drow khopeshes are pretty solid, but in the hands of an LD the mornh is slightly better. Stunning blow just would not land sufficiently in my opinion thus I prefer quicken so I can do quicken cure spells which on a human hits for a lot and is nice when I am out of lay on hands. Quicken is also nice for Divine Favor and Zeal not getting interupptted and faster casts of those buffs.

Really when a paladin has smites still and is actively using those they are much more competitive with the other classes which is why the unyielding smite regen is exciting. I am hoping that they add an enhancement when they do the enhancement pass which increases smite regeneration as well and stacks with the destiny enhancement that would be great.

[ShadowFlash]

....Teh drow khopeshes are pretty solid, but in the hands of an LD the mornh is slightly better..

LeLoric's math puts mornh 15 damage a swing higher than the drow khopesh...I feel your pain...it's even worse for my beloved Dwarven Axes.


....Stunning blow just would not land sufficiently in my opinion..

I think I'll undergear my kensai and run around with my planned DC's just to see if it's worth it or not...agreed, it's definately on the cusp of cutting.


....I prefer quicken so I can do quicken cure spells which on a human hits for a lot and is nice when I am out of lay on hands. Quicken is also nice for Divine Favor and Zeal not getting interupptted and faster casts of those buffs..

A nice option, yes, but looking at enhancements, I simply have no AP room to devote much to devotion and amp unfortunately. I really want Tier IV of exhalted and versatility, and that aint cheap...especially with Divine might and Sacrifice as well. Balancing this out right now is my main dilema.

ShadowFlash

[Zeklijan]

People talk on and on, but this is oriented towards the OP.

1) I would definitly go human, the HP difference between a 12 con drow and a 14-16 con human is well worth the sacrifice of Divine Might 4.

2) As a non evasion character, you will need high HP scores to stay alive in raids, in common raids such as shroud in hard difficulty, for example, Harry deals over 400 damage per meteor swarm which can be followed by a fireball, insta death for any evasion with less than 550-600HP and higher..

3) As an option, you could get 2 monk levels and go with evasion + high paladin saves, perhaps using handwraps/khopeshes, to your choice...


Paladins in my opinion aren't a huge DPS class, they are still far behind the fighter barbarian and even monk now, if you are looking to DPS and go hard, you should go barbarian. However, paladins survive very well, if you want that, look for torc from ADQ and conc opp from shroud to regen sp and use maxmize + Quicken to self heal with your cure wounds, also note healing amp and devotion items.

[selutha]

Just finished my pally life, this is what I found nice...

Maxamize is great for healing, then stack healing amp. I did a human, but I think I would try a helf, monk dilly for cheaper healing amp.

Leveled as kotc/dos/hotd My pref would be hotd second as dos, at level 18 I reset enhancements to kotc (I had the kotc belt and ring, that combo was great.

I did fine with a starting con of 14.

Lower your dex to 15 so a +2 gets your full twf line.

With the new changes percison my be better for you than power attack.

I did not take quicken or extend. Pots or jumping allowed me to stay healed. In a raid your not tanking so no real need for quicken, extend... ehhh I did not think it was so bad, just cast before the next fight while leveling, and in a raid... I still think it was fine.

My human had 2 levels of enhancement for healing amp and then I had DT that had 10% 20% and ... finger necklace from nerco area (additive .1), a max cure light was hitting me for 130ish I want to say. I did not take the 3rd level of human healing amp due to cost, thats why if i did it again I would try an helf monk dilly, it would be much cheaper.