Now to fix your crafting.

[Merconas]

..because you obviously have no clue how crafting actually works in a D&D fantasy world.

Sadly. There are scores of books on the subject; and I don't mean "since 3rd edition." You'll have to look a little further back than that.

First:

Blueshine is a Dwarven metal treatment, not a spell or effect; so is Everbright for that matter, but I can't remember the exact details. Suffice to say, Everbright is not a spell that creates a blinding flash of light.

'Treatments' should not cost or count as spell-like enhancements to a weapon or armor. Everbright and Blueshine should also capable of being applied to any weapon, armor, or item that is made of metal.

Adamantine is effectively already under the effect of a Blueshine treatment. It's kind of like Titanium; hard, resilient, and it doesn't rust or tarnish, (not that you'd notice if it was tarnished). You could reasonably expect to make vials or containers out of Adamantine that could be used to hold all manner of ungents, including caustic or corrosive ones; even the nastiest acid or Dragons bile.

Adamantium is Adamantine Alloy, (or vice versa - can't recall), and is actually composed of Iron and various secret Dwarven ingredients which weren't even revealed in the darkest pages of old lore. - little joke there - suffice to say they were never revealed; probably due to the fact that the people behind it couldn't think of anything.

Both materials are very similar to each other with the exception that the alloy is probably more maleable, making it less hard-obviously-and more useful in the crafting of magical items, and ornate or worked settings and items. Conveniently, it is also more capable of bearing enchantments than the natural metal.

Adamantine, (if I have that the right way around), is actually resistant to enchantment and can effectively repel spells and enchantments targeted on the wearer according to lore.

Mithral is pretty much as you describe it, and is basically a precious metal alloy with the strength of steel. Much lighter, highly enchantable, and with some unusual effects and the possibility of heightened enchantments when the right enchantments are applied. It's also very bright, often attributed to elves, but originated with Dwarves, and generally highly sought after and valuable.

Cold Iron is basically cold wrought iron. - nuff said, aside from the fact that I mean it's crafted cold, but is essentially wrought iron. Hammer, anvil, ingot, beaten till in the shape desired. Not very hard, easily bent, mishapen; obviously fairly malleable as it's never been tempered.

Takes the wonder out of it doesn't it.

Silver - Yep. Kind of like cold wrought iron only it's a precious metal and can be forged without losing its properties or effect on various creatures.

Simply put, you'd be better forging a weapon from harder materials and using a layering process like that used in creating Damascus Steel, or inlaying silver into the weapon than making a weapon out of it.

Smaller weapons like daggers, cudgels and clubs as well as other bludgeoning weapons like maces, (nobody cares if they get a little dinged up and it doesn't make them any less effective), arrow and bolt heads and other piercing points not intended to cut so much as punture, are more effectively made from metals like this and cold iron, and don't suffer the ill effects of battle nearly so much as their bladed counterparts.

Steel - Carbon + Iron in varying degrees. Hard, tensile, soft, depending on what you alloy it with and what the ratio of carbon to iron and other alloys is. Can be used for just about anything. I think pretty much everybody knows this.

Might be interesting to note that Cold Iron is also incapable of taking many enchantments. More suitable to Divine enchantments than arcane enchantments perhaps. Read this somewhere a long time ago. One of the reasons it is so effective against the Fey.

Also, Wrought iron in general is capable of causing wound fever; also known as Tetanus disease and caused by a bacteria that can form on the rusty surface of iron as well as other things. Personally, I've not had a Tetanus shot in 22 years and I'm not particularly susceptible to it so I think it depends on the person.

Green Steel - Rare as it originates in Baetor, (Lawful Evil plane if I recall), and is often used in the crafting of weapons for Devils and their sevants. This might be where it gains the reputation for Evil or malign nature. Technically speaking, th plane itself is evil and Green Steel is just a metal; a metal of extraplanar origin, but just a metal.

If I recall, it is crafted from a sort of mud or clay-based ore, and can take multiple and deadly enchantments. Very effective for creating weapons obviously; not much good, if I recall, for anything else except perhaps armor.

It's increased damage attribute was directly the result of a combination of it's steel-like strength and resilience, and it's light weight and the manner in which weapons were crafted of it. Lots of sharp edges and serrated blades, protruding spikes, etc.. Effectively, larger weapons could be crafted from it with the balance and ease of use found in a well-made weapon of the standard variety made from steel.

Origin dictates the materials ability to take less savoury enchantments, given magical item crafting is traditionally ritual oriented and often bound to places and creatures more than simple magic cast on an item.

More respectable crafters would apply deadly enchantments like Vorpal effects, (Baetor is a plane of tyranny and war, even if it is a lawful one, and the Devils that make it their home often use similar effects to enchant their weapons), or even those that would be made more possible given the nature of the plane, (Axiomatic as an example, though than never really existed before 3rd Ed.). Simply put, there is more to Baetor than just evil, and the only thing inherently evil there is the residents who make it their home.

Darkwood - Hard, resilient wood like ebony, oak, or mahagony, or some combination thereof. Capable of bearing various enchantments and often used by Elves and Druids as well as other woodland and nature dwelling creatures and individuals.

Not sure of exact properties, but I believe it was boiled down to an enchantment laid on a more natural wood that gave it greater strength and durability; primarily resistance to splitting if it was weak in that regard, or resistance to cutting if weak in that regard.

Effectively, the enchantment counteracted the weakness of the specific material and made it more like steel in terms of strength and resilience. As such, darkwood items could look like pretty much any itme crafted of a variety of woods, and may well have been crafted of multiple kinds of woods to enhance there beauty and quality of craftsmanship.

Speaking of it..

Masterwork - This is a level of quality generally expected of an item before it becomes desireable for use in enchantment. It provides the same bonus as a +1 enchantment to a weapon or armor and may well provide that bonus in other areas than simply attack or AC. Often, it should be considered to effect balance, weight, ease of use, durability and resilience, as well as fit, appearance of quality, and the effect of encumberance.

Beyond that, an armor can be crafted for a specific individual and grant the benefits of an easier fit, greater protection, and limited encumberance. Both these effects can apply to armor with regards to the person for which they were crafted, and would result in reduced effect of encumberance, increased agility, and better visibility, hearing, and fit in general, along with reduced noise from movement.

This is of course highly dependent on the general weight, protectiveness, and encumberance of the type of armor, with reduced effect for armors with lower encumberance ratings, limited protection, and less restricting materials.

Not half of it, but it's a start.

[Merconas]

Magical crafting is also bound to Deeds.

For example, a weapon crafted with the intent to enchant it with the primary purpose of slaying Orcs, could only be so enchanted using some materials specific to Orcs, (whether it be Blood, chips of bone, shavings from an Orcish weapon, (or whatever), in one fashion or another and is more likely to benefit from using it to kill countless numbers of Orcs prior to enchantment than using a "Soul Gem: Orc" in the enchantment.

The Deeds bind that weapon to that particular act and enhance its ability to recieve the enchantments necessary to grant it additional damage and attack bonuses with regards to those creatures.

A Soul Gem is more likely to interfere with the crafting and enchantment as you are attempting to bind the spirit of an Orc into a weapon and force it to kill it's kin. This is more likely to result in a failure in most cases, though Orcs in particular might be more willing than other species to kill their own. Use of a Soul Gem in such a fashion, or in general, and is usually considered evil in addition to that.

Were you to use an entrapped soul for such an enchantment, you'd more likely use one that held a creature which hated the one you were enchanting the weapon to slay. It would also be likely that you'd gain something like the Viscious enchantment as an addition to that or instead of that, as you are binding a creature against it's will and enchanting the weapon to enhance damage against whatever creature you intend it to slay.

Basic process broken down a little and made simple for this particular example:

- Find or take an Orcish weapon used to kill Orcs, (most have been, but it helps if you take the time to witness the process), that is old, or even a hereditary item, and shave bits of metal off the blade for use in crafting the weapon. Take the wrap off the hilt and use it to wrap the tang of the sword, (in this example), for protecting the hand of the smith while forging and tempering the blade, and save the remainder for later in the crafting process.

- Craft or have a weapon crafted that is either masterwork quality or capable of recieving enchantments that make it so.

- Use it, or have someone else use it, (though less effective), to kill countless orcs, or steep it in Orcs blood in a ritual process, (much nonsense there, and likely about as effective as having someone else use it to kill or Orcs, and only because of the blood), temper it in Orcs blood, (more effective than the previous example), or something along those lines.

- Use the weapon to shatter or break the weapon used in it's crafting, (earlier example - herditary sword taken from the an Orc).

- Begin the enchantment process or add elements for additional enchantments, such of having Priests of Eilistraee perform rituals over the weapon, (involving lots of naked dark elven women dancing under the light of a full moon likely), or go back in the process and apply during crafting: heating the weapon by plunging it into, or slicing it through, molten lava then cooling and tempering by plunging it briefly into enchanted waters with the molten lava still encasing its blade.

Damascan Steel and Japanese swords were tempered with clay encasing their blades at certain points in their crafting. Presumably this helps with melding the metals together in the fashioning of the blade by slowing down the cooling period. Could also be very useful for inlaid metals used to fill runic engravings and such.

etc...

Enchant the blade by finishing the attunements to the various enchantments, (Here's where your essences and collectibles would be used), then performing the ritual of enchanting the blade through various spell castings, mumbled chants, words of power, or whatever.

Quite likely a ritual could be laid out with the 'shards' placed around the weapon on the worktable or appropriate surface, mystical lines drawn to the item using silver powder, naptha, oils of some variety, and between shards used to combine to form a more powerful enchantment, along with additional castings, etc.. essences could be used to form attunements to particular castings by creating shards that combine their power for use in the enchantment process.

Your crafting machines are a bit clumsy and unrefined, but they have at least the last bit somewhat near the actual process. At the very least, there are similarities.

Also,

Technically, there is no reason why a 1st level character should not be able to wear the highest quality enchanted armor made of the most unusual of materials and crafted by the most capable of smiths and artisans, except perhaps, that it is not very likely he could afford it.

It may also be possible that some of the more powerful enchantments may be a bit too much for him to handle. The mundane portions of the armor are by no means effected by this however, and nothing aside from a lack of knowledge with regard to donning and wearing the armor, poor fit, or inability to bear the encumberance would stop anyone from putting it on and marching into battle with it. The same applies to weapons.

As such, level restrictions on Battle Plate, Skirmish Chainmail, and the like are a bit absurd; cost alone should be the deciding factor here, along with proficiency in their use.

Why can't Battle Plate be Adamantine or Mithral, or even Darkwood? No reason, except you haven't made it.

And,

With regard to the above bit on crafting items, (and how it relates to deeds, places, and whatnot), there should be a place where characters can aquire or, (with the right skills), craft on their own masterwork weapons, armor, and items for their own or others use. Whether it be for crafting, enchanting, or whatever, it should be possible to get or make a specially crafted suit of armor or weapon, even for a specific individual who might recieve the benefits of a well fit suit of armor.

All varieties should be available as well as all materials.

Crafting levels should be automatic on these items, and materials should effect base crafting level as well as applicable enchantments.

+5 base crafting is not awful, but it is a bit absurd in some cases. Mithral should start at +7 for example, and Adamantine at +2 or +3. Cold Iron could start at +1, being a not particularly valuable or desirable, (in most cases), material, Silver could be +6, and Steel, (of whatever variety), could be +4. Darkwood could be +5.

Attunement, (not binding), could automatically raise this by +1 or +2. This would allow the item to receive further enchantments or allow it to benefit from particular deeds without sullying its use for crafting.

Use of potential shards is interesting, but if you use lesser water essences, should it bind the item to accept water-based or similar enchantments? Traditionally speaking, the answer is yes. Increasing an items value for enchantment purposes typically follows similar logic. This is the 'Ritual' logic or path of enchantment, and typically increases an items susceptibility to those kinds of enchantments.

Sort of like killing hundreds of Orcs, only without the killing. Different purpose, different path; though they might coincide at some point or another.

Disjunction isn't the best path to crafting, except that it technically cleans an item of past deeds and enchantments. Also, (unfortunately), it's crafting potential with regard to your crafting system.

Your Alters.. yeah, not sure I ever really understood those. Maybe it's just that I've never really had the opportunity to use them. There is no reason the items used in one shouldn't be capable of being used in the other however.

Also, your levels are way off, and quite often absurd with regard to enchantments. Not just with regard to treatments like Blueshine, (mentioned earlier), but with regards to simple things like Viscious or Vorpal. Why shouldn't a 3rd level Fighter be able to use a +3 Vorpal Sword? Viscious might result in too much hit point loss, but that's really up to the individual.

Green Steel? Still haven't got a clue how to actually aquire this. Lot of time and effort-mostly spent in high level raids-I understand. Also, what you get isn't really what it's supposed to be. Traditionally, you could buy the weapons or armor in various outposts or towns in the Outlands, or aquire it in the lower planes, or even find and collect the ore, though that might be significantly more difficult than going shopping.

It wasn't even expensive.

..anyway, perhaps I'll write more later, but not today. It's too late and I've got to get up early.

[JasonJi72]

Holy great wall of text!

:)

[CaptainSpacePony]

Nice read here and interesting. Most of what the OP suggests I agree with, BUT I feel like it's 9:00 AM and we're alone at a train station waiting to catch the 5:30 AM ferry.

[thouston]

tl;dr

[CaptainSpacePony]

tl;dr

No idea what you're saying...

[fco-karatekid]

I balked at the wall of text at first; but there's some excellent lore in there; but I have to agree with a couple posts ahead of this one - it's too late to "canon-ize" some of the discrepancies now.

I thought this thread was going to be about the ridiculous quantity of ingredients and sheer volume of time to level cannith crafting up - pleasant surprise that this was fun to read.

[dng242]

/signed

I think, I confess I didn't really read it all. What am I signing again?

[Merconas]

/signed

I think, I confess I didn't really read it all. What am I signing again?

lol :cool:

Just to add a little more to this, I thought I'd continue regarding Classes and Crafting proficiency.

Really, aside from the artificer, there is no bonus to crafting for other classes so far as I know.

Classes that should get bonuses to crafting for obvious reasons and their expected affinities:

Druid: Elemental
Wizard: Arcane
Sorcerer: Arcane, to a lesser degree than Wizards, and possibly about the same for Elemental.
Bard: Arcane and Divine, again to a lesser degree.
Artificer: Arcane primarily, but with some proficiency in Divine and Elemental.
Cleric: Divine.
Ranger: Divine and Elemental to a lesser degree.
Favored Soul: Divine.
Paladin: Lesser Divine.

All other classes could expect to benefit from current, (or slightly better as noted above), proficiency with no expectation of bonuses.

The 'magic-using' classes spend time studying lore related to crafting and can be expected to devote some time to it. All these classes should benefit from increased base proficiency, and should receive bonuses to crafting experience and increased chances of success.

A Bard for example could automatically benefit from 3-4 levels in Divine and Arcane Crafting and gain a level in each every 3 levels. In addition, he or she could benefit from a 10% bonus to experience gained in crafting for all types of crafting, and have the ability to choose special enhancements for each of his crafting specialties as well as general enhancements that apply to all types of crafting and increase his/her experience gained or chance of success.

Also, each race should have crafting affinities applied to them and available enhancements for those affinities based on their individual apptitudes for magic and crafting.

Dwarves for example could gain Elemental affinity regardless of class and automatically benefit from available enhancements and a bonus to their crafting level in Elemental crafting. If they've chosen a Divine class or one with Divine spells available, like Ranger, then they should have additional enhancment available related to that.

There is no reason to expect that they would receive the same with regard to Arcane Crafting, where one could expect Elves to have the same automatically in addition to Elemental, and have Divine become available should they choose a Divine class or one with access to Divine spells.

So really, there should be multiple ways to enhance ones crafting ability without ever having lifted a finger crafting. There is no argument that knowledge is a poor substitute for experimentation, with regard to magical crafting of any sort.

Bottom line: An artificer isn't the only class with aptitude in this area, though they might be expected to be the most widely versed, and some races can be expected to have some aptitude without ever having studied or cast a spell.

Some creatures are innately magical and have no need of spells for the sake of enchanting an item; at least according to lore.

I probably think of something else to continue this with tomorrow.

[Merconas]

Thought I'd make a basic diagram for magical crafting as an example. Also like to note that I see no reason why players shouldn't be able to add multiple effects such as those applied in this diagram.

The Stoneskin Enchantment example would effectively add the ability to cast that spell from the item using charges. It could be made by combining a Stoneskin scroll, (preferably crafted by the character, though this isn't available in game), with a Shard intended to carry such enchantments for crafting purposes.

Stone of Purity is just an example and could be crafted using a gemstone, (make them useful; could also replace the shard in the above example depending on quality, but it should be optional), that has been purified by a Priest of the Silver Flame or some similar blessing or ritual, and combined with the secondary element which would be something appropriate to the item.

In this case, the stone would be mounted to the item rather than consumed while imbuing the tem with some enchantment like the above example.

The Disruption Shard should be rather obvious for anyone who has played old PnP D&D. Effectively an enchantment that makes the item capable of inflicting greater damage on Undead or even destroying them with a Critical hit depending on their Hit dice or CR.

Elemental Shard is just another example and could be intended to attune the item to those specific elements bound within it for the purpose of additional enchantments.

Un-named additional enchantments are exactly that. I'm not really creating an item here, but providing an example. I used to enjoy doing this and would likely have taken the time to sketch the item out and consider all sorts of other factors, but that was a long time ago. Now I'd rather just conceive the item I intend to make and say "Presto" or "Alakazam" or something.

If I was to conceive something, I'd probably make the Staff out of some special material like a bone from a Dragons wing, add the elements that combine with the Stone of Purity, which would probably be a gold mounting and ground petals from a dried flower that only blooms in the morning Sun on a certain mountain somewhere, (the petals would be crushed and ground in a specially enchanted mortar and pestel, then used to dust the Stone of Purity after it was mounted in its gold setting and lit with magical flames to burn off with the aroma of a sweet incense), following which, the finished setting would be mounted to the head of the Dragonbone Staff which would then be imbued with the power of the Elemental Shard.

The Unknown Elements at the bottom would probably be a combination of two small feathers from a Sparrow Hawk plucked from its nest in the same mountain I aquired the flower petals from, only later in the day and possibly at night, a once enchanted silver armlet melted down and cast to go around the base of the staff, (intended to be hammered on cold and fired with magical flames to glaze the surface and remove any impurities while removing any fractures or flaws within the metal that may have resulted from the crafting), enchanted Powder of Timelessness intended to be used to treat the feathers and protect them from the rigors of time and travel, (another made up item, but I'm sure you could find or make something like this in the Outer Planes, particularly in one of the planes near Ysgard.. Limbo, of course; there's a place there which has effects duly suited to the crafting of such items), and sap from a magical tree in some enchanted forest that could be hardened into a glowing amber and used to bind the feathers to the silver shod base of the staff with the magical fire purification ritual.

The staff would of course then receive the +4 enchantment and Stoneskin spell, and be available for further enchantments later. I'd name it something like.. Dragonbone Staff. Oh, that was clever wasn't it. j/k, but it's not a bad name if it's not already taken.

http://i.imgur.com/uzrx2.jpg

[dterror]

lol :cool:

Just to add a little more to this, I thought I'd continue regarding Classes and Crafting proficiency.

Really, aside from the artificer, there is no bonus to crafting for other classes so far as I know.

Classes that should get bonuses to crafting for obvious reasons and their expected affinities:

Druid: Elemental
Wizard: Arcane
Sorcerer: Arcane, to a lesser degree than Wizards, and possibly about the same for Elemental.
Bard: Arcane and Divine, again to a lesser degree.
Artificer: Arcane primarily, but with some proficiency in Divine and Elemental.
Cleric: Divine.
Ranger: Divine and Elemental to a lesser degree.
Favored Soul: Divine.
Paladin: Lesser Divine.

All other classes could expect to benefit from current, (or slightly better as noted above), proficiency with no expectation of bonuses.

The 'magic-using' classes spend time studying lore related to crafting and can be expected to devote some time to it. All these classes should benefit from increased base proficiency, and should receive bonuses to crafting experience and increased chances of success.


I like this idea, but not quite as laid out.
Minor boosts are just +1 crafting level, obtained at level 10
Lesser boosts would top out at +2 crafting levels: +1 at level 10, +2 at 20.
Major boosts would be +1 crafting level every 4 levels
Superior boosts are +1 crafting level every 2 levels (existing Arti boost)

-Druid should get major elemental, lesser arcane, lesser divine
-Wizard should get major arcane, lesser elemental
-Sorc should be minor arcane, minor elemental. They do NOT study the lore, they simply ARE the lore. They do not study to learn how to perform their chosen profession, or study to improve in that profession. A perfect example of a sorc's attitude towards traditional casters is shown by the sorc hire you can get in Neverwinter Nights 2.
-Bard is fine as you stated, lesser everything. As a JoAT class, they study all the lore at least enough to gain a passing proficiency with it.
-Artificer leave as is now, Superior everything
-Cleric would be major divine, lesser elemental.
-FvS would be minor divine, minor elemental. See Sorc for reasoning.
-Paladin minor divine, with an additional +1 divine available at tier 3 DoS pre. DoS chosen for the boost only because the other 2 pre are fine as is now, but DoS could use a little something.
-Ranger would get minor divine, minor arcane

This would give a small crafting boost appropriate to the classes and amount of 'study' each class must invest in their eldritch side with +1, 2, or 5 crafting levels in the appropriate schools while leaving artificer the undisputed master of crafting at +10 to everything.

[Merconas]

I like this idea, but not quite as laid out.
Minor boosts are just +1 crafting level, obtained at level 10
Lesser boosts would top out at +2 crafting levels: +1 at level 10, +2 at 20.
Major boosts would be +1 crafting level every 4 levels
Superior boosts are +1 crafting level every 2 levels (existing Arti boost)

-Druid should get major elemental, lesser arcane, lesser divine
-Wizard should get major arcane, lesser elemental
-Sorc should be minor arcane, minor elemental. They do NOT study the lore, they simply ARE the lore. They do not study to learn how to perform their chosen profession, or study to improve in that profession. A perfect example of a sorc's attitude towards traditional casters is shown by the sorc hire you can get in Neverwinter Nights 2.
-Bard is fine as you stated, lesser everything. As a JoAT class, they study all the lore at least enough to gain a passing proficiency with it.
-Artificer leave as is now, Superior everything
-Cleric would be major divine, lesser elemental.
-FvS would be minor divine, minor elemental. See Sorc for reasoning.
-Paladin minor divine, with an additional +1 divine available at tier 3 DoS pre. DoS chosen for the boost only because the other 2 pre are fine as is now, but DoS could use a little something.
-Ranger would get minor divine, minor arcane

This would give a small crafting boost appropriate to the classes and amount of 'study' each class must invest in their eldritch side with +1, 2, or 5 crafting levels in the appropriate schools while leaving artificer the undisputed master of crafting at +10 to everything.

I think you're skipping over the requirement of level 60 in crafting for one school just to make an unbound level 4 item. ..or maybe I should put it another way: Don't you think it's a little odd that even Deconning every item you find as you level results in the use of all gathered materials without the ability to craft an item before you're 4-8 levels past using it.

I'm probably grossly short of the mark on how long it takes to actually aquire the materials to level the crafting to make something usable well after you've needed it.

Irregardless of that, I don't see the point in crafting items if you need to grind continuously to gather materials to level crafting to make useful items, when you can just stop Deconning and use the items dropped because they are at lest of appropriate power for you level and somewhat useful, even if they are well off base of a realistic item or just plain grossly over-pulled and only comprise a single benefit, so you have to quickswap all the time to gain some benefit while carrying dozens of items.

Then you account for the fact that a max Craft is 1 Alchemical change on the Stone of Change Alter, 1 Suffix and 1 Prefix, and an Enhancement bonus if applicable. ..or maybe look at the rediculous cost of creating a Magnetism Shard and level requirement for crafting it to level +40 when compared to a level 2 Thaumaturgy staff that has +42 Magnetism, a Critical bonus for Ice, +3 spellcasting implement, +28 Spell Power, +1 Enhancement, and some other stuff I can't remember. Force bonus or something; they're all pretty random but the point is the bonus you need level 50+ to apply as a bound shard is one of many enchantments available on a level 2 item.

Kind of ironic, no?

Also, totally separate from that, don't you think it would be appropriate for Wizards to finally get the ability to choose a Familiar, (Pet), at level 2 to make them just a little more feasable as a playable character? The fact that Artificers and Druids both get Companion creatures might be an indicator that it is finally a feasible option. Hate to point out how obviously missing it is, but it is. This is also more in line with my topic here and something I consider an important missing aspect of gameplay.

Yes, I know Wizards get super insta-damage spells as they attain much higher levels; the fact remains that this very old and obviously missing component of the class is missing. It might also be helpful in making them more soloable, (that was the whole point of Familiars after all; Wizards are typically loners traditionally), while giving them a bonus to some skills as Familiars once did.

Not saying they need to be the same familiars as those were typically only a general idea and guideline for what is considered acceptable and normal for a Wizard in a town setting or a hermit living in a tower somewhere in the Rural district. Of course, there was always the Psuedo-Dragon or Faerie Dragon familiars, but they were rare and more often attributed to more outgoing Wizards and carnival acts. j/k, but the performer Wizard is the type that would often welcome such a familiar as they are kind of flashy.

So.. that's just another little thing: Wizards need their Familiars back; they are sadly lacking them. Sure you can get a Race-granted Iron/Steel/Mithral/Adamantine Defender, but then, so can everybody else.

They're also not really a familiar are they...

[cedad]

..because you obviously have no clue how crafting actually works in a D&D fantasy world.

Insulting the Devs.... a great way to start your post and be heard...

[Merconas]

Insulting the Devs.... a great way to start your post and be heard...

Works for me. There's no reason they would ever have bothered to read back and study the lore behind this as they started with WotC 3rd Ed. and WotC's advice on how to make it work. We're talking about a company that released multiple books that consisted of a few small tidbits of usefule information in amongst a rhetorical and essentially useless pile of drivel so they could make money selling book after book.

The resellers actually took to wrapping the books in saran wrap with a Do Not Open until purchased sticker on the front because they realized that anyone who took one look inside would decide that it was not worth it. You could memorize the useful content in about 5 minutes and take it home with you in your head, write out a quick rule change or addition and wait for the weekend to introduce it to your friends.

No surprise DDO turned out the way it did.

[Fomori]

*yawn*

If you have this super miraculous crating system then find some investors and go make another MMO that will defeat DDO.

I get that you have some ideas but perhaps you should offer it as advice, not a "I know what is best for YOUR game" attitude.

[Merconas]

On with it then,

I wanted to cover another thing which is related to something I mentioned above: Locations.. or Places.

There should be places in game where you can interact with the environment for the enchantment process of an item. These can be discoverable locations like in Explorer quests for Wilderness areas, or even within deeper Dungeons and perhaps in secret locations in quests that cannot be unlocked until later levels.

The door that obviously goes somewhere in the Troglodyte Warrens in Garrisons Missing Pack for example, or the secret return passage in the Cannith Manufactory that leads from atop the pile of boxes in one chamber to the secret hideout of the wizard and is only openable from that end presumeably. Another location might be the altar on the old ruin in Cerulean Heights, or even deep within one of the caverns below Searing Heights.

Perhaps even as simple as a basic location within the Twelves area, in the lava below the Magma Elemental.

Interaction with these areas would be relativly simple, in that you could click on them to use them and place an object, or objects on or in them and use that location to further the enchantment of your item such as I covered above, or even harvest materials from them for use in very specific enchantments. Mud gathered from the banks of the waters in Tangleroot Gorge for example.

Examples of this would be to coat the blade of an item that had been readied for the first stage of enchantment, (as described earlier), with mud gathered in Tangleroot, near the old temple where you find the Giant, mixed earlier with Lesser Earth Essenses then plunge it into a pool of Magma found within the Searing Heights near the Drow Stronghold and remove it to allow it to cool still encased in the mud, (clay), and magma that has clung to it.

From there, you could activate a Slayer quest specific to the item enchantment by wielding it against the Drow in the Stronghold, (be careful as the item has been weakened by the slow tempering and has a lower hardness and durability at this time), or even the Fire Elementals should you be able to get close enough to wield the blade against them. The Clay and Magma should break off at the first strike or shortly after, but mazy also make the item somewhat unwieldly unless you use a nearby rock to shatter the substance encasing the blade.

Depending on how you approach the process and what you do with it, it may change the effect of the potential enchantment. You could simply skip that process entirely, and slay a hundred Drow with it, or maybe run with it to a spring on the other side of the Searing Heights and plunge it in there, then break off the casing created by the Magma, or take the weapon back into Stormreach and have a smith remove the casing of clay and magma intact for later use.

That's all just speculation for now, but the point is that these areas could be used to bind an item to certain enchantments, and further apllication of various things at the locations could apply to the enchantment process and increase the potential of the weapon while creating affinities for certain kinds of magic.

Slayer quests would be activated the first time you used the weapon against a specific creature, and continue until you had killed so many with it, then there would be another level which may increase the affinity for Slayer enchantments further.

You could also just kill one or two, then abandon the slayer quest activated by killing them, (incidently), prior to applying furth enchantments or just wait until they get wiped by a reset somewhere in the enchantment process. Either way, incomplete, they should have no bearing on it whatsoever.

However, a Slayer quest that achieves 100 kills might make the weapon take Lesser Bane enchantments, where 200 would give it the ability to accept something in between that and a Bane Enchantment. 400 would give it access to Greater Bane enchantments, and so on.

Anther Slayer Quest might be killing 50 Lawful Creatures, or the same for Chatic Creatures, or even Outsiders, or Aligned Outsiders. Killing Lawful Creatures might attune the weapon for Chaotic enchantments like Absolute Chaos for example.

Interaction might even extend to Named enemies, where you can interact with their body after you've killed them. Plunge your weapon into their chest and dust the weapon and wound in Lesser Chaos essences for example.

Also, Dragons, Sentient or Named Undead, (not including Jacoby Drexelhand; he really wasn't anything special), could be used as well, or it might be specific to hidden levels and areas where you can find creatures intended for this kind of interaction, which might be better.

That's todays response, and yesterdays too as I intended to cover this last night and got side-tracked. I I think of anything else I'll let you know with a new post here.

[Merconas]

*yawn*

If you have this super miraculous crating system then find some investors and go make another MMO that will defeat DDO.

I get that you have some ideas but perhaps you should offer it as advice, not a "I know what is best for YOUR game" attitude.

I already pointed out that this was originally part of this game, (D&D, not DDO). It's by no means copyrighted, and aside from hard rules and specific implementation, it couldn't be, but that's really kind of besides the point.

I'd like to see you go and find some 'investors' based on some small component like this; specifically, being as it already exist in half a dozen places elsewhere in one fashion or another. Not original then; nothing is.

You're making a very big issue of one line at the beginning of my first post, and I might point out, it's is not their game, but ours. We're the ones playing it, and ultimately the fact that it is good or bad in one area or another is out decision to make. The Devs may make the content usable and provide a format in which we can access it and use it, but the game itself is something that we play or choose to ignore based on our interest or lack of it.

WotC mangled the game when they took over and one of the worst results of that was item crafting. The other was the worlds and planes that comprise the D&D universe. Eberron was created by a player and made legal content when it won a contest that WotC used to help them generate new and original content so they could step away from the origins of the game with TSR and have something uniquely constructed under their new game design in 3rd Ed. As such, it is about the only thing introduced after the implementation of that system by them.

D20 isn't even proprietary to them, and is used by multiple game designers and publishers that publish D20 Modern, Swords and Sorcery and about a hundred other games. It's sort of like a Freeware version of the game system used by just about everyone. That basically means that most of what they release is essentially recycled and relicensed content that is either an entirely mangled form of its original design made fit into their version of the D20 system or something like Eberron which was originally created and envisioned by someone who never really got properly recognized for their efforts.

They couldn't be bothered to make up there own content and probably lack the vision necessary to do so, so they release other peoples stuff in books full of rhetorical nonsense instead of compiling everything for easy reference in one or two books. Not only that, but they re-released newer versions every couple years until 4th ed. with slightly changed rule systems in an attempt to make it more playable while they profited off the lack of playability of earlier versions instead of doing it right the first time.

None of which is as playable as the original game, which admittedly TSR gleaned from the minds of Ed Greenwood, Gary Gygax, and others through individual contracts that locked those people into producing content solely for them while they payed them less than they deserved. A number of authors and artists fell into the same category. The difference is that TSR actually had content writers on staff that knew what they were doing and focused on making them game as playable as possible, while incorporating all those playable elements they could garner from the playerbase and people like Gary Gygax in as original a form as possible. They were good at it and took pride in that fact. WotC never did the same, and only cared about the money they could make leading the playerbase with scraps and dreams of things to come that never did. Meanwhile, they scrapped the original content and botched the entire game system, with exception to basic elements that they thought were enough to provide a 'rich and enticing' game world.

..why am I going on about this like somebody took my cake? I don't really miss much about the game anymore; certainly not the annoying and selfish dirtbags I used to know that played it. Complete chaos at every game, nobody knows what they are doing, constant rules lawyering, stupid ideas and statements, pandering, cheating, DMs that change the rules to keep players from having fun because they're psychopaths, psychopaths.. yeah, like I miss that. Probably why I played mostly solo and read the books rather than sitting around a table with a bunch of potheads, alcoholics, and meth heads.

So maybe I miss the content more than the game and the people that played it.. so what?

[Talias006]

I'm guessing there's a cognitive point to be made in all this, but so far am failing to grasp it.




Oh, and CaptainSpacePony, tl;dr is shorthand for "Too Long; Didn't Read."

[Merconas]

I missed mentioning earlier, the Flametouched Iron. Originating in Thrane, the game gives it as being mined there and naturally bearing those properties. This is not exactly true, and any metal can bear similar properties with the right treatment.

The Ore found in the mines of Thrane is exposed to the radiations of the Silver Flame, or more appropriately it is within close proximity of the fissure from which the Silver Flame originates. The Silver Flame itself resides in a Temple of the Silver Flame in Thrane and is much like the Silver Flame Guardian found in the Spinners Prison quest introduced with Menace of the Underdark.

So really, all you would have to do to treat a metal and have it receive similar properties would be to expose it to the same radiations for a period of time. Placing it within the care of the Silver Flame Guardian, placing it upon an an altar by the pedestal that holds the Silver Flame in Thrane, or burying it deep within the fissure in Thrane from which the Silver Flame originates.

Eventually it would gain the same properties for itself, or similar.

The Ore itself is an impure iron with copper in it, best guess, and would be essentially worthless and very mundane without those emanations. The fissure in Thrane likely has a means of passing through the barrier to the home of the Silver Flame Guardian and similar beings. Whether it be during a celestial conjunction, (common enough requirement in Eberron), or something similar, or just a natural point of weakness where beings can freely cross from one side to the other.

The latter is more likely given the properties of the metal mined near that place. It isn't something you would expect to occur with instant and temporary exposure, (such as might occur briefly within the Spinners Prison), but something which would take prolonged exposure such as would occur with a consistent occurence of passage leading to close proximity between the two planes for long periods.

Densewood of Arenal is simply a wood that has interesting properties. Much like Purple Heart perhaps, it is naturally resilient and very hard, (Purple Heart will dull a circular saw blade and resists cutting even with the sharpest knife; you actually have your best chance of shaping it with an angle grinder and grinding stone), while being dense enough to give it a weight in close proximity to that of iron .

The two are relatively close in mass per cubic foot of material, with Iron being only slightly more than Purple Heart. Enough that a weapon shaped of Purple Heart requires a little extra size in breadth and thickness to appoximate the same weight of a similar iron weapon of the same sort.

The point is, that materials can and will bear certain properties, whether mundane or super-natural in nature. Supernatural for this pupose being any property aquired from Arcane or Divine means, or through a close connection to the Elemental planes or other places which might imbue unnatural, (for a Prime Plane), properties.

Properties can also be introduced to a material through Mundane or magical means without the process of enchantment. These properties do not necessarily make the material more or less capable of receiving enchantments, but can potentially affect the process.

For game purposes, this means that they should not generally impact the crafting of an item unless they are specifically of the sort of treatment that will affect enchantments one way or another.

For this purpose, Flametouched Iron may resist attempts to enchant it with the intent of imbuing it with evil properties. The process may cause the failure of the enchantment or remove the Flametouched properties on the item. It's not likely to result in both being present in the same item.

Adamantine as mentioned earlier has properties of its own, and if all are taken into account according to lore, it should resist all enchantments and require special treatment to accept any but specific natural enchantments, (Elemental), or Divine ones.

Gemstones can be added or combined with other items, (again according to lore), to produce affinities for specific enchantments, and in some cases were actually required. Topaz was associated with fortitude and resilience and often used to create items that provided resistance to poison, or were themselves more resistant to damage or destruction. Topaz being a hard Corundum gemstone, this was not an unusual expectation.

Sapphire was associated with enhancing enchantments, or more specifically, applying + bonuses to an item beyond the very simplest of enchantments. Star Sapphires were used to imbue the most powerful of enchantments. Onyx was typically associated with necromancy, and Moonstones with luck and beneficial enchantments.

There were plenty of others and the choice of materials was quite prolific at one time, but everything had a purpose and if such was known could be used to assist in the enchantment of an item, or make such enchantment possible where it might not otherwise have been.

The idea that item enchantments boil down to grinding for essences, piling them into a machine along with a number of dragonshards of one variety or another, then pushing a button or pulling a lever like it's a slot machine is a little absurd.

The fact that these enchantments require nothing more than that and following a 'recipe' book, while requiring a horrendous amount of those essences in general for even the simplest enchantment, (or much less for an enchantment that provides a benefit you could easily grant tenfold by cuffing someone on the back of the head for daydreaming), is abhorrent to me.

It doesn't quantify the process or provide an easy means of crafting items; it just provides a means. The items craftable are of little potential, and as some else said, only useful to a point.

Someone else said it prevents crafting from destroying the economy by providing crafted items that can be sold for profit. How is crafting an item going to provide a means to destroy a non-existent economy?

If anything, it might actually make one. There are plenty of people that sell Essences, Collectibles, Raid Drops, and various other things for profit; that does not make an economy. What it really does, is fill their pockets with plat. while they endlessly grind Raids with their TR'd 20th level characters to no purpose.

Do you see what's wrong with that?

Not entirely related: A true economy would not be impacted by players cajoling Devs into nerfing content they deem to plentiful into nonexistence so they could sell their stockpiles for grossly inflated prices. If they wished to affect an economy with shortages to increase the value of their stockpiles, they would have to interact with the world and prevent the resource from reaching markets that they wished to dominate.

What's really wrong with it, is that they're endlessly grinding the same repetative content they have memorized and know provides specific drops they can sell for profit, even though in a more realistic gameworld, such content could never be memorized as it would be a first time experience only.

After that first experience, they may do something similar, and possibly in the same place, but the original enemies would either be defeated, or would have defeated them. In the latter case, if they hadn't taken certain precautions or if someone hadn't collected their remains by some means and had them reincarnated, they would not be able to return to complete it.

If they could return, they would find the dynamics had changed, and they would be in for a fight and experience of a different sort, possibly against different opponents. Even should hey be the same opponents, there are other ways in which they could interact, and many of these individuals would likely be working with those enemies, or betraying their friends and allies to them.

Obviously, that isn't likely to be available game content anytime soon; particularly not in DDO, but it would change the dynamic significantly if they instead had to manipulate the world rather than the Devs.