Suggestion: Enhancements for Iron Defenders keeping them relevent in mid-high content

[Bernaise]

As someone that occasionally solos and does find having pets to often be useful in parties, it's discouraging that multi-classing usually weakens the summoned pet to the point where it really cannot be used in Mid-Higher level content.

What I would propose is either a Feat or Enhancement purchase that would give your summoned Iron Defender additional partial levels for each level the player character obtains in a class outside of Artificer (rounded down).

In adding Value to the existing Repair enhancement, each level of Repair taken could also add +1 Level to a summoned Iron Defender, including the non-artificer Defender summons. The benefit to the Repair skill would tie into the language of the creature summons (becoming an inherent bonus).
I'm not sure if Warforged Mechanics also stacks with Improved Mechanics (think it does), but with the text in place about pet level not exceeding character level I don't see a problem (aside from WF envy) also allowing those points spent in contributing to Iron Defender levels.

I believe a Pure Artificer's Pet currently caps at 20 as Epic Levels don't count as Artificer levels. This would allow Pure Artificers to equip their Iron Defenders with equipment up to level 24 and keep your summons relevent for multi-classed characters

Iron Defenders action points earned/spent are based on Artificer level only. Giving more weight to having additional levels of Artificer. [suggested by valarx]

[Example]

Enhanced Mechanical Aptitude I
1AP: Your summoned Iron Defender continues to grow and gains 1/3 levels (rounded down) from class levels taken outside of the Artificer Class. Levels gained may not exceed your current character level.
Requires:
Artificer Level 2
Improved Repair II (available at player level 4)
[Total AP investment is 3AP]

Enhanced Mechanical Aptitude II
1AP: Your summoned Iron Defender continues to grow and gains 1/2 levels (rounded down) from class levels taken outside of the Artificer Class. Levels gained may not exceed your current character level.
Requires:
Enhanced Mechanical Aptitude I
Improved Repair IV (available at player level 12)
[Total AP investment is 6AP]

The following shows how this could benefit players that splash or heavily multi-class Artificer at level 20 (no additional benefits at epic levels).

20A + 0(/3)+2 = 22nd Level Iron Defender
20A + 0(/2)+4 = 24th Level Iron Defender

2A + 18(/3)+2 = 10th Level Iron Defender
2A + 18(/2)+4 = 15th Level Iron Defender

4A + 16(/3)+2 = 11th Level Iron Defender
4A + 16(/2)+4 = 16th Level Iron Defender

8A + 12(/3)+2 = 14th Level Iron Defender
8A + 12(/2)+4 = 18th Level Iron Defender

7A + 13(/3)+2 = 13th Level Iron Defender
7A + 13(/2)+4 = 17th Level Iron Defender

16A + 4(/3)+2 = 19th Level Iron Defender
16A + 4(/2)+4 = 22th Level Iron Defender

13A + 7(/3)+2 = 17th Level Iron Defender
13A + 7(/2)+4 = 20th Level Iron Defender

12A + 8(/3)+2 = 16th Level Iron Defender
12A + 8(/2)+4 = 20th Level Iron Defender

[Mathermune]

I disagree,

Fix/upgrade AI would be my suggestion. They don't need to be "better" in mid-high level content.

My dog has mid 40's Str and 600HP and level 19, a bluff score through the roof, a pure good/banishing collar and, well, a gorgon docent because I keep forgetting that he can wear one when choosing end rewards and selling vendor trash. He should be a monster!

Take out - Those terrible 9 point acid breath and 8 point fire breath attacks.
Put in - A slight improvement in brainpower.

The dog is an intrinsic part of the Artificer class as much as the crossbows and rune arms. In certain situations, the dog is moderately useful at best, we are lucky the arty is such a good class anyway, but what needs fixing is the dog's brain. The price you should pay for multi classing is a less effective dog.

To make a comparison I don't think wizards who multiclass should be allowed to take enhancements that give them additional spell levels, or increase their caster level.

[jonqrandom]

not too sure about the general usefulness of the OP's suggestion, but it does raise the point that epic levels do nothing for your metal mutt - or your druid pet. how about putting that in the shiradi destiny, and the arti-based destiny (if one comes out)?

[Bernaise]

I disagree,

Fix/upgrade AI would be my suggestion. They don't need to be "better" in mid-high level content.

My dog has mid 40's Str and 600HP and level 19, a bluff score through the roof, a pure good/banishing collar and, well, a gorgon docent because I keep forgetting that he can wear one when choosing end rewards and selling vendor trash. He should be a monster!

Take out - Those terrible 9 point acid breath and 8 point fire breath attacks.
Put in - A slight improvement in brainpower.

The dog is an intrinsic part of the Artificer class as much as the crossbows and rune arms. In certain situations, the dog is moderately useful at best, we are lucky the arty is such a good class anyway, but what needs fixing is the dog's brain. The price you should pay for multi classing is a less effective dog.

To make a comparison I don't think wizards who multiclass should be allowed to take enhancements that give them additional spell levels, or increase their caster level.

You miss the point that the intent is to give relevance to Iron Defenders for Artificers that Multi-Class. Turbine has stated that they want to encourage players to explore beyond pure classing. Currently your Dog quits leveling at whatever level your Artificer is, so if you only have 6 levels invested the Pet becomes mostly useless in mid-high level content.

Action Point spending is tight as is and I feel the example Enhancements I posited are significant enough that if people really want a better pet they'll still feel the pinch in their character build. I would also think the people most interested in adding benefits their pet would be Solo Players and those who don't have much interest in Epic/Raid content.

[Mathermune]

You miss the point that the intent is to give relevance to Iron Defenders for Artificers that Multi-Class. Turbine has stated that they want to encourage players to explore beyond pure classing. Currently your Dog quits leveling at whatever level your Artificer is, so if you only have 6 levels invested the Pet becomes mostly useless in mid-high level content.

I know exactly what the point is, allow me to repeat that the dog is an intrinsic part of the artificer class. Therefore you should be penalized in that aspect of the class for multiclassing.

I make the same comparison again, because in assuming I missed the point you clearly didn't read my post, wizards who multiclass should not be allowed to take enhancements that give them additional spell levels, or increase their caster level.

Artificer dogs level in line with artificer class levels, it should be no different than anything else, would you have enhancements for level 6 wizards to be able to cast level 9 spells with a caster level of 18? Of course not, the difference is CL:18 level 9 spells are useful, artificer dogs are not, this is perceived on your part as a lack of effectiveness in mid-high content.

[valarx]

I think the problem is that if you only put a level or two into Artificier, your pet will get eaten alive at higher content.

I'd say let the pet have hp, base attack, damage, AC, and saves appropriate to your character level. That way they won't die to the first trap they run through or the first mob you encounter.

However, ONLY give the pet action points based on your Artificier level. This means that only those who have invested in the Artificier class will get the customization and special abilities for their pet.

No special feat/enhancement is really needed to fix pets being useful for classes that splash.

[Bernaise]

I think the problem is that if you only put a level or two into Artificier, your pet will get eaten alive at higher content.

I'd say let the pet have hp, base attack, damage, AC, and saves appropriate to your character level. That way they won't die to the first trap they run through or the first mob you encounter.

However, ONLY give the pet action points based on your Artificier level. This means that only those who have invested in the Artificier class will get the customization and special abilities for their pet.

No special feat/enhancement is really needed to fix pets being useful for classes that splash.

I would agree with this, except for the last line. Nothing in this game provides a benefit without some included cost.

[Bernaise]

wizards who multiclass should not be allowed to take enhancements that give them additional spell levels, or increase their caster level.

I didn't respond to this as it seems (to me) to be comparing Apples to Oranges.

The subject of the thread is an idea to give Multi-classed Artificers a little boost, again this would appeal mostly to people that likely aren't invested in end game raid content. If you disagree, so noted, if you have another suggestion to posit, start a new discussion so that it can get a proper review in the forums.

[Mathermune]

I think the problem is that if you only put a level or two into Artificier, your pet will get eaten alive at higher content.

I'd say let the pet have hp, base attack, damage, AC, and saves appropriate to your character level. That way they won't die to the first trap they run through or the first mob you encounter.

However, ONLY give the pet action points based on your Artificier level. This means that only those who have invested in the Artificier class will get the customization and special abilities for their pet.

No special feat/enhancement is really needed to fix pets being useful for classes that splash.

Have bring a disagreement to this table too.

No other class abilities scale up like this when taking levels in a different class.

"I see your six levels of wizard allow you to cast haste."
"Yes, even better, now I've taken 14 levels of fighter it lasts for two whole minutes!"

[Mathermune]

I didn't respond to this as it seems (to me) to be comparing Apples to Oranges.

The subject of the thread is an idea to give Multi-classed Artificers a little boost, again this would appeal mostly to people that likely aren't invested in end game raid content. If you disagree, so noted, if you have another suggestion to posit, start a new discussion so that it can get a proper review in the forums.

It's a clumsy analogy I grant you (read this one after my reply above) but if your attitude is "you disagree with me, get out of my thread" then I take exception to that.

Level 20 artificers get level 20 dogs. It's part of their class.

What you are suggesting is that level 6 (to use your numbers) artificers should get level 20 dogs if they multiclass.

Level 6 wizards get level three spells. It's part of their class

Does that mean there should be an enhancement line to get the spells they get at level 20 if they take 14 levels of fighter?

[jonqrandom]

i get decent use out of my arti dog, but that takes me a feat (augment summon), 4 keybinds, ship buffs, a fair amount of micromanagement, and a fair bit of SP keeping it repaired and buffed.

my point? losing levels from it would cripple it other than as a lever puller/decoy. two or three druid past lives (for an extra +2 or +3 to summon/hires stats) might make taking two rogue/monk levels for evasion feasible without compromising the dog too much - its stats would be as though it had your toon's level, but its enhancements would be two levels behind still :/

instead, you could grind out one monk life instead for the 20 second evasion per rest for force traps, and go pure, keep the capstone, and deal with other traps in the normal arti manner (either resist+protect or stoneskin+ablative and radiant forcefield+temp HP, or get rezzed on the far side where the box is ;p ).

[valarx]

The dog is an intrinsic part of the Artificer class as much as the crossbows and rune arms. In certain situations, the dog is moderately useful at best, we are lucky the arty is such a good class anyway, but what needs fixing is the dog's brain. The price you should pay for multi classing is a less effective dog.

To make a comparison I don't think wizards who multiclass should be allowed to take enhancements that give them additional spell levels, or increase their caster level.

I'm not going to argue that the Pets can act muddled at the best of times. :) I often have to frantically click on a particular action for my pet to 'get a clue' and do what I want it to.

The problem with the pet is that it just doesn't work unless you have invested most of your levels in the class. It's like a low level summon that you then get penalized for when it dies. At best, it would be a short distraction before the first AOE or swipe of a mob wiped it. You can't even have one out for flavor purposes (on passive) because you would be hurting yourself any time it died. It would be nice if it at least had some survivability, even if it didn't add much DPS/lockdown. Besides, it would be cool to have a lvl 20 character with a mechanical puppy running around.

Wizards who multiclass shouldn't get enhancements that up their levels, but they DO get their first level spells. Even if they aren't as effective many of them (Expeditious Retrreat, Shield, Invisibility) can be useful even at higher level content. The problem with the pet is that they aren't useful, and bringing them out is just hurting yourself and your party. So yes, they are an intrinsic part of the Artificier class, but if someone puts levels into that class they should be able to use them in the same way that those who multi-class into wizard should get and be able to use first level spells. Imagine if every mob you ran into had an on-hit dispel magic effect. That is sort of how pets work currently.

[Bernaise]

It's a clumsy analogy I grant you (read this one after my reply above)

But level 20 artificers get level 20 dogs. It's part of their class.

What the OP is suggesting is that level 6 (to use his numbers) artificers should get level 20 dogs if they multiclass.

Level 6 wizards get level three spells. It's part of their class

Does that mean there should be an enhancement line to get the spells they get at level 20 if they take 14 levels of fighter?

If you used my numbers a Level 6 Artificer (with 20 total levels) and full AP investment [6 AP] would at max have an Iron Defender at level 17. The AP investment is significant, and if perceived to be low could be raised to 8AP, which to me seemed too much for what is IMHO not an overpowered investment.

In regards to Spells and Wizard levels. The last update Turbine increased the length of some spells so that there would be less of a negative impact on those that wanted to multiclass

[Kominalito]

maybe i'm a lunatic for suggesting this, but...

why do things always have to be viable all the way through a toon's career? you dont use Carnifex at endgame? why can't there be things that are useful at some levels, and not at others?

[Mathermune]

If you used my numbers a Level 6 Artificer (with 20 total levels) and full AP investment [6 AP] would at max have an Iron Defender at level 17. The AP investment is significant, and if perceived to be low could be raised to 8AP, which to me seemed too much for what is IMHO not an overpowered investment.

Alright alright, I'll contribute positively :)

Thinking a bit more on this, I think a much tidier way of giving multiclasses a boost, would be to take the Racial Summoning area of the enhancement tree and alter that to have a companion bar, and not expire after five minutes while making the defenders (which my mechanic can attest are rubbish at the moment) better.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Racial_Summoning

Include the artificer battle engineer, or just level 6 artificer as a prerequisite.

These upgrades let you summon a pet if you don't have one, or if you're a multiclass add 1, 3, 6 and 10 levels to your existing summon if you do. (Pet level can't exceed your overall level)

Our poor beleaguered level six artificer, who has taken 14 levels of fighter, for arguments sake. Takes all four levels of racial summoning, and winds up with a level 16 dog.

Boom.

Now back to arguing, because it's more fun please.

[jonqrandom]

If you used my numbers a Level 6 Artificer (with 20 total levels) and full AP investment [6 AP] would at max have an Iron Defender at level 17. The AP investment is significant, and if perceived to be low could be raised to 8AP, which to me seemed too much for what is IMHO not an overpowered investment.

how often do you take a hireling 3 levels below into a quest? how does that usually work out?

[Mathermune]

how often do you take a hireling 3 levels below into a quest? how does that usually work out?

In a dramatic reversal, of position. In fairness, I don't spend 6 AP to be able to summon a level three hireling.

[Bernaise]

It's a clumsy analogy I grant you (read this one after my reply above) but if your attitude is "you disagree with me, get out of my thread" then I take exception to that.

Fair enough. There was a tone of that in my post. I prefer to keep dialogue constructive, and do believe disagreement to be constructive as well. Unless it's just ranting, which does nobody any good except the ranter. Your followup posts have been clarifying and helpful which I appreciate.


Boom.

Now back to arguing, because it's more fun please.

LOL. Awesome

[dragons1ayer74]

...

To make a comparison I don't think wizards who multiclass should be allowed to take enhancements that give them additional spell levels, or increase their caster level.

Actually for a game based loosely on D&D they should be able to do just that: D&D 3.5 has a feat called "Practiced Spellcaster" , the main benefit of this feat is "Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice."

That feat sure would be a nice additon to the game.

[jonqrandom]

In a dramatic reversal, of position. In fairness, I don't spend 6 AP to be able to summon a level three hireling.
sorry, my bad i think - i meant a hireling three levels below your own toon's level - not that hirelings AT level aren't expert at getting themselves killed :/

[Bernaise]

how often do you take a hireling 3 levels below into a quest? how does that usually work out?

Plus, as you grind into levels 20+, the Dogs level will not increase as it's capped by your Heroic levels <=20

[valarx]

Actually for a game based loosely on D&D they should be able to do just that: D&D 3.5 has a feat called "Practiced Spellcaster" , the main benefit of this feat is "Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice."

That feat sure would be a nice additon to the game.

They sort of gave that as an auto-grant to all casters in the fact that most spells have a minimum duration of 5 mins. :)

Works with clickies too.

[Mathermune]

Fair enough. There was a tone of that in my post. I prefer to keep dialogue constructive, and do believe disagreement to be constructive as well. Unless it's just ranting, which does nobody any good except the ranter. Your followup posts have been clarifying and helpful which I appreciate.



LOL. Awesome


Yeah I ninja'd that in as an "and another thing" which was a bit sneaky of me, but I technically wasn't adding to the point so you were right to call me out on it.




Actually for a game based loosely on D&D they should be able to do just that: D&D 3.5 has a feat called "Practiced Spellcaster" , the main benefit of this feat is "Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice."

That feat sure would be a nice additon to the game.

I remember that from Neverwinter nights. On my 2 Pal / Sorc splash every time.

What would the summon version be? Practiced, erm, dog summoner?

Ironically as a feat it doesn't have much value to me.

[dragons1ayer74]

They sort of gave that as an auto-grant to all casters in the fact that most spells have a minimum duration of 5 mins. :)

Works with clickies too.

That change is very diffrent, albiet nice for low level casters and clickies although it dosn't work on second level spells. Practiced Spellcaster is a feat that can be taken multiple times and would allow a class that took a little multi-class to spend a feat to keep their casting power as strong as a full caster.

[jonqrandom]

Plus, as you grind into levels 20+, the Dogs level will not increase as it's capped by your Heroic levels <=20
yup. that's why i said it should be offered in the shiradi destiny (and the arti destiny if one ever pops into existence), as it effects both artis and druids.

[thunir]

No special feat/enhancement is really needed to fix pets being useful for classes that splash.

Artie splashes should not have the benefit of a fully functioning pet IMHO. Gotta agree with Valarx

[V_mad_jester_V]

i would have to go for something like this, multiclassing is useful for many things
i have a monk2 /druid 6 atm, and i feel that my dog should not get hurt by the 2 levels monk, especially when i have so many levels invested into druid and will be endgame 2/18 split. or even 3/17 split for healing mark.

It should work exactly like leveling a multi classed. While i have a 12/8 clonk, i can still level, take stats and feats but i dont get my enhancements as a level 13 cleric cuz i only have 12 levels of cleric. So with that said one should be able to have a level 20 dog even though they are not level 20 druid, they will just get enhancements up to level 17, anything after that (where the split is) then the dog can take levels, increase in stats/hp, but no extra enhancements available to it.