Last feat for 18/1/1?

[Ape_Man]

It's "safe" to take levels 24 and 25 now, I know what I want for my other toon's last feats but my 18/1/1 has me stumped.

What to take? Currently have (in no particular order) . . .

Feats:

1 Dodge
3 Mobility
6 Spring Attack
9 Khopesh
12 IC:Slash
15 Maximize
18 OTWF
21 Quicken
24 ?

Human Toughness
Monk Power Attack (Monk)

What to take?

[Ganolyn]

How much bow use do you get out of him? IC: Ranged perhaps? Probably a better choice out there, though.

[Ape_Man]

How much bow use do you get out of him? IC: Ranged perhaps? Probably a better choice out there, though.

Point Blank shot might not be a bad idea. IC: Ranged isn't because bows have such a lousy crit range but PBS is pretty good.

[Ganolyn]

Point Blank shot might not be a bad idea. IC: Ranged isn't because bows have such a lousy crit range but PBS is pretty good.

True, but not all bows are 20 crit range. Aren't some of the newer named bows wider in that department? Also keep in mind that anything within PBS range is usually close enough to melee and you will do much better DPS doing that. I suppose you could run up, Manyshot, then engage, but all that takes time which means less DPS.


EDIT: Just for reference, I usually get 4-8 crits out of a Manyshot burst on my IC: Ranged toon with a bow that has normal crit range. With Seeker and a crit heavy bow it makes a pretty string of numbers fly.

[unbongwah]

Bow of Sinew, epic Bow of the Elements, epic Thornlord, and epic Collapsible Shortbow all have 19-20 crit range. EDIT: so does Silver Longbow, though I doubt one would still use it in epics.

[Synthetic]

Improved sunder or the new power crit maybe. I went with ic ranged myself for many shot and the bow from madness chain. Granted I didn't run any numbers.

[unbongwah]

It's also possible to add Overwhelming Crit if you completely redid your feats and took your monk splash early:

Tempest III pre-reqs: D/M/SA,OTWF
Overwhelming Crit pre-reqs: PA/Cleave/GC, IC:S, WF:S, OC:S

That's 10 feats out of ll total (base 7 + 1 human + 1 monk + 2 epic), leaving room for khopesh.

[Ape_Man]

It's also possible to add Overwhelming Crit if you completely redid your feats and took your monk splash early:

Tempest III pre-reqs: D/M/SA,OTWF
Overwhelming Crit pre-reqs: PA/Cleave/GC, IC:S, WF:S, OC:S

That's 10 feats out of ll total (base 7 + 1 human + 1 monk + 2 epic), leaving room for khopesh.

Not worth giving up Quicken and Maximize.

[Ganolyn]

Not worth giving up Quicken and Maximize.


I was wondering about those two since Rangers have sucky offensive spells. Are you using them for healing?

[Grailhawk]

I'm going to experiment with Cleave. If that doesn't work out and I don't really expect it to. ill probably take either Point blank shot, Skill focus UMD or another Toughness.

Since Overwhelming Critical isn't really feasible. This really bothers me though its been on my nerves for the last week. I don't think cleave and great cleave should be on its list of requirements it basically locks every one that isn't a Fighter or a Barbarian out imo.

[unbongwah]

It's yet another hold-over from PnP rules, I'm afraid. Believe it or not, they actually improved it: DDO's OC provides +1 crit multiplier on a 19 or 20 (similar to FB II & III's crit bonus); the PnP feat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Overwhelming_Critical) works like a Maiming bonus (i.e., flat +1D6/2D6/3D6 dmg on crits depending on base multiplier).

[Ape_Man]

I was wondering about those two since Rangers have sucky offensive spells. Are you using them for healing?

yes, and it works extremely well.

[Ape_Man]

What about Stunning Blow?

SB DC
10 Base
10 Item (Air/Air/Air Alchemical Khopesh)
19 STR (48 Sustainable STR as a FoTW)
6 Twist from LD

45 DC

50 DC if I acquire Exceptional Combat Mastery.

Definitely viable in Epic hard content and the 50 DC might land enough to be worth it in Epic Elites.

[Synthetic]

Stunning blow is great and you numbers look good to me. Definitely get that last 5 though.

[Ape_Man]

Went with Stunning Blow, kinda underwhelmed but it's meh DC. The stuff it lands on is all low HP junk that dies fast anyway.

I swear i get more incaps with dual earth-grab weapons.

Still shopping for ideas.

[Aerendil]

Quick draw might be ok if you're using boosts a lot.

Otherwise, I'd aim for PBS (no pun intended) or a past-life feat such as Sneak of Shadows if you have it.

[Ganolyn]

The only other fairly useful feat I can think of besides another IC or PBS is Empower Healing. Anything else either gives a poor benefit or requires a prereq that you don't have. Does EH stack with Maximize?

[Ape_Man]

Does EH stack with Maximize?

it does but then we start to get tot he point of a CSW costing way too much.

[Ganolyn]

it does but then we start to get tot he point of a CSW costing way too much.

Oh yeah, I forgot that you only have about 20 SP on that toon. ;)

[Hilltrot]

OTWF

I see the a lot in TWF build and it just doesn't make sense. Do you really need the +2 to hit? For Ranger you already have bonuses due to Tempest and Spring attack.

Do you really need the +2 to-hit? I just don't miss on mine. Not beholders or vampires, or dragons. . . ? What are you'all missing all the time that you need OTWF? What part of the game have I not done?

Two weapon defense seems to me to be a much better choice. Not that much help but is some help.

Cleave , great cleave, whirlwind attack help overcome the lack of area effect that TWF has.

Maximized, quickened cure serious wounds? Solo much? Oh yes, let's empower healing it too!

Only 57 points a casting! You might be able to cast it ten times - maybe.

If you're really serious about something like that, be a half-elf and carry heal scrolls. Or just be a cleric or favored soul.

I'll be a dragon-marked halfling before I spend time on Maximized, empowered, quickened cure serious wounds.

I guess this is the result of clerics and favored souls insisting on characters healng themselves.

At end levels, you tend to play with others. Solo at high level, those 10 castings of cure serious wounds are going to go so fast. I'm assuming that is why you are doing that. Maybe playing with clerics who post BYOH?

[Ganolyn]

OTWF

I see the a lot in TWF build and it just doesn't make sense. Do you really need the +2 to hit? For Ranger you already have bonuses due to Tempest and Spring attack.

Do you really need the +2 to-hit? I just don't miss on mine. Not beholders or vampires, or dragons. . . ? What are you'all missing all the time that you need OTWF? What part of the game have I not done?


OTWF is required for Tempest III which his character has.




Two weapon defense seems to me to be a much better choice. Not that much help but is some help.


Meh, but the extra 1 AC might help in certain situations and would free up the OTWF requirement.




Maximized, quickened cure serious wounds? Solo much? Oh yes, let's empower healing it too!

Only 57 points a casting! You might be able to cast it ten times - maybe.

If you're really serious about something like that, be a half-elf and carry heal scrolls. Or just be a cleric or favored soul.


I think he occasionally tanks with this toon, so non-interrupted casting is useful.

[Ape_Man]

OTWF

I see the a lot in TWF build and it just doesn't make sense. Do you really need the +2 to hit? For Ranger you already have bonuses due to Tempest and Spring attack.

Do you really need the +2 to-hit? I just don't miss on mine. Not beholders or vampires, or dragons. . . ? What are you'all missing all the time that you need OTWF? What part of the game have I not done?

Tempest III pre-req. Completely not needed at this point, especially with the changes with to-hit, but NEITHER ARE ANY OF THE OTHER TEMPEST III PRE_REQs :)

But before the to-hit changes it was nice to have it.



Two weapon defense seems to me to be a much better choice. Not that much help but is some help.

1 AC and 5 PRR in the modern defense system is worthless.



Cleave , great cleave, whirlwind attack help overcome the lack of area effect that TWF has.

Whirlwind has stupid pre-reqs but cleave might not be terrible. That’s a useful suggestion, I’ll probably try it.



Maximized, quickened cure serious wounds? Solo much? Oh yes, let's empower healing it too!

Only 57 points a casting! You might be able to cast it ten times - maybe.

It costs 47 SP for a quickened/Maximized CSW that hits for about 250. I have a torc (20th end reward, I’m not that much of a jerk that I’d pull it over a real caster) and almost 800 SP so it works very well. Can solo anything on Epic hard and it’s saved my ass several times in Epic Elite and raids when the healer’s been slow/lagged/blocked.



If you're really serious about something like that, be a half-elf and carry heal scrolls.

Why look like a ken-doll that spend too much time in a microwave? :)

I have no-fail heal scrolls, you cannot compare this to quicken CSW. I do use scrolls between fights or on others, the quickened/maximized CSW is for those “I’m GONNA DIE!!!” moments though if the torc is working better than normal sometimes you can be sloppy.



Or just be a cleric or favored soul .

I have those to, but we’re talking about my ranger. I don’t have trouble figuring out what feats I want for them 




I'll be a dragon-marked halfling before I spend time on Maximized, empowered, quickened cure serious wounds. .

On a ranger? With it’s feat requirements? That would be extremely foolish. It could work on a fighter but we’re not talking about fighters.



I guess this is the result of clerics and favored souls insisting on characters healing themselves. .

No, it’s about people not wanting to wait for healers to do what I want to do ever.

I have melees with good self-healing and I have some that don’t and the ones that don’t need anyone watching over them are more pleasant to level and play.



At end levels, you tend to play with others. Solo at high level, those 10 castings of cure serious wounds are going to go so fast. I'm assuming that is why you are doing that. Maybe playing with clerics who post BYOH? .

My ranger has been the healer in epic hard groups that had barbarians (no SF pots) in them.

I solo Epic hard EDA daily on this toon for fun and profit. Don’t underestimate what you can do with a Torc and a bunch of healing amp.

When you’re a playing your ranger you are playing a sub-par toon from a DPS perspective. ANYTHING you can do to add value to your toon/group is great. Needing a healer to watch over you on a max-DPS kensai/barb is one thing because the damage they bring to the table makes up for the resource drain they bring to a group (talking good players with good equipment not monkeys on typewriters).

Needing a healer to watch over you on a “specialist” is well . . . selfish.

[Ganolyn]

I somehow missed the part of your OP that pointed out Power Attack. Cleave or PBS seem to be your best bets. I still like IC: Ranged, but I tend to use my bow more and stand farther back. You're more the In Your Face style.

[Hilltrot]

It's not just +1 AC for TWD, It's +5% DR. It has a reason although a small one. I just don't see the reason at all for OTWF. And you just said it was for the requirement only. So it needs to be switched out. AC tends to not matter too high or too low, but for my ranger it tends to be in the sweet spot where it can matter.

Tanking for a TWF Ranger? Have you seen the buffs to Sword and Board? You aren't even a Half-Orc to take advantage of the +75% aggro generation. . . I just don't see it happening. And even if it did happen, all the more reason to take TWD. If dispel is cast on you in combat Rams Strength and maybe Barkskin are the only two I see you needing to cast in combat. And even then, I don't see a TWF ranger maintaining aggro over a group of monsters. You'll be able to cast between swings most of the time.

If you're a tank a healer is almost standard equipment. If I were a cleric, I wouldn't want a TWF ranger as a tank.

Even so, your 10 Maximized, quickened cure serious wounds won't matter. To fail a +30ish concentration check, you need to be taking over 17 points of damage. That's an unbuffed concentration. Over 30 points of damage for a buffed one. At that amount of damage those cure serious wounds are going to last long. You need a separate healer. I can see it saving you in a small fight where the cleric doesn't want to heal, but I don't see it helping much in a big boss encounter. Though, I'm not sure how bad the clerics are on your server.

I would suggest replacing it with something to increase damage or add an AOE.

[Hilltrot]

A torc.

Well in that case, the Max healing makes sense. Didn't know that you had one of those.

As for damage, I think the epic TWF will help even things out when it finally comes out. . . maybe in a year or two . . .

[Grailhawk]

Whirlwind has stupid pre-reqs but cleave might not be terrible. That’s a useful suggestion, I’ll probably try it.

I found Cleave underwhelming.


It's not just +1 AC for TWD, It's +5% DR. It has a reason although a small one. I just don't see the reason at all for OTWF. And you just said it was for the requirement only. So it needs to be switched out. AC tends to not matter too high or too low, but for my ranger it tends to be in the sweet spot where it can matter.

Tanking for a TWF Ranger? Have you seen the buffs to Sword and Board? You aren't even a Half-Orc to take advantage of the +75% aggro generation. . . I just don't see it happening. And even if it did happen, all the more reason to take TWD. If dispel is cast on you in combat Rams Strength and maybe Barkskin are the only two I see you needing to cast in combat. And even then, I don't see a TWF ranger maintaining aggro over a group of monsters. You'll be able to cast between swings most of the time.

If you're a tank a healer is almost standard equipment. If I were a cleric, I wouldn't want a TWF ranger as a tank.

Even so, your 10 Maximized, quickened cure serious wounds won't matter. To fail a +30ish concentration check, you need to be taking over 17 points of damage. That's an unbuffed concentration. Over 30 points of damage for a buffed one. At that amount of damage those cure serious wounds are going to last long. You need a separate healer. I can see it saving you in a small fight where the cleric doesn't want to heal, but I don't see it helping much in a big boss encounter. Though, I'm not sure how bad the clerics are on your server.

I would suggest replacing it with something to increase damage or add an AOE.

TWD vs OTW used to be a debate if you had the AC, now your comparing two worthless feat it doen't mater which you take for the T3 pre-requirement. Hell Lighting Reflex which effects saves which don't have diminishing returns might actually be the best choice now.

Maximized and/or Quickend CSW are why you play a Ranger over a Fighter if all you care about is DPS play a TWF Fighter.

[Ape_Man]

It's not just +1 AC for TWD, It's +5% DR. It has a reason although a small one. I just don't see the reason at all for OTWF. And you just said it was for the requirement only. So it needs to be switched out. AC tends to not matter too high or too low, but for my ranger it tends to be in the sweet spot where it can matter.

No, it's 5 PRR that's NOT 5% damage it's about 2-3% which is meaningless.

But then again so is +2 to-hit but I already have that and don't feel swapping 1 meaningless feat for another. it's like the the monk level, it's useless now but not worth spending real money to remove.



Tanking for a TWF Ranger? Have you seen the buffs to Sword and Board? You aren't even a Half-Orc to take advantage of the +75% aggro generation. . . I just don't see it happening. And even if it did happen, all the more reason to take TWD. If dispel is cast on you in combat Rams Strength and maybe Barkskin are the only two I see you needing to cast in combat. And even then, I don't see a TWF ranger maintaining aggro over a group of monsters. You'll be able to cast between swings most of the time.

Bah, my S&B fighter TWFs most of the time now when tanking. With the armor improvements you can still get enough AC/PRR that the incoming damage is greatly mitigated.

You are greatly underestimating the threat generation of Stand Against the Tide. if you have that running, and the others do not, you can hold aggro over pretty much anything.

Of course you SHOULDN'T be that guy on a ranger unless there's nothing better in the group. I've done it just to say I did it but typically your better off in a full-offensive ED hitting things in the back.



If you're a tank a healer is almost standard equipment. If I were a cleric, I wouldn't want a TWF ranger as a tank.

For 90% of the game now it doesn't matter who tanks. Would I want a ranger on Epic Elite LOB? Hell no but epic hard or any other setting is fine.

You're so powerful with EDs elite sulu's not that bad anymore and even Elite Horoth won't be that bad after they debug the spell power so the disintegrate doesn't hit for 850+ anymore.



Even so, your 10 Maximized, quickened cure serious wounds won't matter. To fail a +30ish concentration check, you need to be taking over 17 points of damage. That's an unbuffed concentration. Over 30 points of damage for a buffed one. At that amount of damage those cure serious wounds are going to last long. You need a separate healer. I can see it saving you in a small fight where the cleric doesn't want to heal, but I don't see it helping much in a big boss encounter. Though, I'm not sure how bad the clerics are on your server.

Who's talking about healing yourself while tanking a raid boss? That's just silly. Did it a couple times on a pally but it was a pain in the arse. it's more fun to madstone and yell "hjeal meh!" when tanking.

I'm talking about healing yourself in quests.



I would suggest replacing it with something to increase damage or add an AOE.

If the "it" you're suggestion is replacing the self healing stuff you'd be wrong. It's night and day difference.

[Ganolyn]

... it's like the the monk level, it's useless now but not worth spending real money to remove.


You should be able to find a +1 Heart on the AH. You could switch it out for Fighter and get an extra feat. With two feat slots open you might be able to make something out of it.

[Ape_Man]

You should be able to find a +1 Heart on the AH. You could switch it out for Fighter and get an extra feat. With two feat slots open you might be able to make something out of it.

I have a +1 heart of wood :)

it's still not worth spending. Monk gives you a feat, fighter gives you a feat. it's a wash.

[Ganolyn]

I have a +1 heart of wood :)

it's still not worth spending. Monk gives you a feat, fighter gives you a feat. it's a wash.

Ooops! Forgot about that! You'd get a better hit die with the fighter though and one better BAB, but you'd lose 2 WIS and 2 REF saves. Still a wash I guess.

[Hilltrot]

Tempests get

+12.5% damage

Evasion without needing to splash

Able to cast resistances without a guild ship.

Barkskin. (+5 Nat armor is a difficult find for some.)

+6 AC and +15% Damage resistance.

The ability to use bows effectively.

Bonuses against favored enemies.

Damage on TWF Kensai . . . limited to one weapon. (Bad with certain Damage reduction.)

No evasion without splashing.

More hit points. Kensai gets +3 strength, +8 strength on for a few minutes using action boosts, and +8 damage with specialized weapon. An additional 1 added to crit range. Total +13-14 damage per hit.

Pure Kensai will get 10% additional double strike resulting in +5% damage.

Kensai do do more damage, but that damage has a lot of tunnel vision. Just hope they don't correct Lolth's and Drider's DR to 30/piercing.

Though of course Rangers can get +14 Damage against 5 monster types and do even damage with kensai.

So, I guess it really matters what type of tunnel vision you have.

I don't need a Cleric nanny and I find myself the last one standing on many occasions, especially where evasion is involved. Unless some zerger has sent the entire dungeon on Red Alert I don't find myself surrounded by enemies. I've healed lots and I can heal more than normal since I don't use maximize. I can understand that you either got lucky or spent some time grinding a Torc, so I can understand why you got maximize.

But for us mortals, I wouldn't recommend it. I think that saying that the only reason to take Ranger is maximized, quickened cure serious wounds is too much focus on a single spell. You're thinking solely about TWF and if you're taking ranger without ever wanting to do ranged, you probably should go with Kensai.

Cleave probably seems underpowered because you're not using it right.

You need to keep holding the attack button down, then use another button to hit the cleave key. With two weapons it's underpowered, but with a single weapon, it's free damage and meant to be spammed.


I agree with Apes last few posts. I didn't finish this unitil after he wrote them, sorry.

[Grailhawk]

I don't need a Cleric nanny and I find myself the last one standing on many occasions, especially where evasion is involved. Unless some zerger has sent the entire dungeon on Red Alert I don't find myself surrounded by enemies. I've healed lots and I can heal more than normal since I don't use maximize. I can understand that you either got lucky or spent some time grinding a Torc, so I can understand why you got maximize.

But for us mortals, I wouldn't recommend it. I think that saying that the only reason to take Ranger is maximized, quickened cure serious wounds is too much focus on a single spell. You're thinking solely about TWF and if you're taking ranger without ever wanting to do ranged, you probably should go with Kensai.

Cleave probably seems underpowered because you're not using it right.

You need to keep holding the attack button down, then use another button to hit the cleave key. With two weapons it's underpowered, but with a single weapon, it's free damage and meant to be spammed.


I agree with Apes last few posts. I didn't finish this unitil after he wrote them, sorry.

Look at the things your point out that a ranger has over a fighter Evasion, AC, Resistance spells; taking Maximize and/or Quicken to augment CSW plays to the strength of the class, which is as a self sufficient melee DPS. Both those feet have a better synergy with the class then the Cleave chain or whatever 2nd or 3rd tier DPS feat your recommending over them (all the good once that have a reasonable price are on the list). This goes for any Ranger not just the one's with torcs.

If you like Rangers and haven't tried one with Maximize/Quicken you should probably give it a go.