thf useless, take three toughnesses isntead?

[ivstuntman]

something I really like about running thf is that yo really are not dependent on the thf line and that endgame you have a window open for an additional 69 hp. Am I right in thinking this?

[HPL]

More glancing blow? Meh....

[Stormraiser]

At endgame do you really want to spend a feat to gain a 2-3% hit point increase? Surely there are better feats then extra toughnesses, especially for classes with limited feats. How about increasing your crits?

[grgurius]

At endgame do you really want to spend a feat to gain a 2-3% hit point increase? Surely there are better feats then extra toughnesses, especially for classes with limited feats. How about increasing your crits?

This, 69 hp is not that big of a deal anymore, don't be one of those that gimp their char for extra hp.

As for THF feats, yes they look pretty meh atm.

[Skavenaps]

At endgame do you really want to spend a feat to gain a 2-3% hit point increase? Surely there are better feats then extra toughnesses, especially for classes with limited feats. How about increasing your crits?

69 hp its the 2%/3% of you HP? jesus... are you only playing 1500 hp tanks?

[Kages]

69 hp its the 2%/3% of you HP? jesus... are you only playing 1500 hp tanks?
Yes. Now we are.

[Standal]

something I really like about running thf is that yo really are not dependent on the thf line and that endgame you have a window open for an additional 69 hp. Am I right in thinking this?

I don't think so. Some players that claim to be elite(can neither confirm nor deny, I haven't played with them) post that they don't need the THF line, but if you're going to stand and deliver it's pretty good DPS. Since there's no to hit penalty for THF, the line scales better than TWF, so if you don't want the full line you don't absolutely have to take it.

If you choose not to take it, I'd think you would be better off taking stunning blow or a cleave or even quick draw versus a toughness feat. Classes that generally take the THF line will have plenty of HP; I think you will benefit more from either a CC or other kind of DPS feat.

[FranOhmsford]

At endgame do you really want to spend a feat to gain a 2-3% hit point increase? Surely there are better feats then extra toughnesses, especially for classes with limited feats. How about increasing your crits?

Two Handed Fighting {Tier 1 at Least}
Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave??
Imp Crit Slash or Bludgeon {possibly both}
Weapon Focus/Specialization {Kensai} Greater??
Toughness x1
Power Attack
I really like Augment Summoning but that's just me.
Improved Sunder
Stunning Blow
Power Crit has had a Boost, Dodge can now come in Handy, Combat Expertise and Imp Trip

Paladins can make use of Emp Heal and Extend.

No one should be forced to take more than one Toughness - We need to get away from moar HP automatically trumps everything else.

[fco-karatekid]

As a habit, I usually try for two toughni, almost no matter what build I am working with.

Primary reason for this is I don't have greensteel gear to make up the difference

I am rethinking that now post-u14.

[Stormraiser]

Originally Posted by Stormraiser:
At endgame do you really want to spend a feat to gain a 2-3% hit point increase? Surely there are better feats then extra toughnesses, especially for classes with limited feats. How about increasing your crits?


69 hp its the 2%/3% of you HP? jesus... are you only playing 1500 hp tanks?

23 is 2-3% of hp and that is a generous number. 69 is the total for all 3 feats. How many people do you see with under 600 HP in endgame?

[akiraproject24]

The full thf chain of feats provides serious dps. I think people like to fool themselves into thinking its not so they can drop them for something and not feel shameful about it. Im no math guy (It gives me headaches) but I can tell you my Barbs glancing blow base number is like 60s-90s (depending on buffs and situation)

So how can anyone sit there and say that 60-90 base number damage per swing is not a loss in DPS if you drop those feats? Mofos sell their souls for tomes that increase their STR mod by one ...giving +1 damage(muliplyable for crits) but are so quick to give up 60-90 damage per swing? How does that even make sense?

[Standal]

The full thf chain of feats provides serious dps. I think people like to fool themselves into thinking its not so they can drop them for something and not feel shameful about it. Im no math guy (It gives me headaches) but I can tell you my Barbs glancing blow base number is like 60s-90s (depending on buffs and situation)

So how can anyone sit there and say that 60-90 base number damage per swing is not a loss in DPS if you drop those feats?

I like the feats, but you don't get glancing blows every swing standing still and not at all while moving. A lot of THF toons used to circle strafe to avoid getting hit. If they still use this tactic, the feats don't benefit them all of the time. Of course that ignores any boss fight where they sit on the bosses back and just swing away.

[grgurius]

The full thf chain of feats provides serious dps. I think people like to fool themselves into thinking its not so they can drop them for something and not feel shameful about it. Im no math guy (It gives me headaches) but I can tell you my Barbs glancing blow base number is like 60s-90s (depending on buffs and situation)

So how can anyone sit there and say that 60-90 base number damage per swing is not a loss in DPS if you drop those feats? Mofos sell their souls for tomes that increase their STR mod by one ...giving +1 damage(muliplyable for crits) but are so quick to give up 60-90 damage per swing? How does that even make sense?

Depends on epic destiny really, with dreadnought i noticed that i'm mostly spamming tactical feats instead of using normal attacks, and those don't produce glancing blows, talking mainly about cleaves here.

[Darkrok]

Depends on epic destiny really, with dreadnought i noticed that i'm mostly spamming tactical feats instead of using normal attacks, and those don't produce glancing blows, talking mainly about cleaves here.

Yeah, I'm building a toon mainly for fun and to check out the Whirlwind/GCleave/Cleave changes and I'm having to seriously debate the value of the THF line there as well. With Spring Attack negating some of the negatives of moving (still lose the full attack chain but no -4) it's tempting to skip it. I'll be setting this toon up to whirlwind/gcleave/cleave and use tactics so I'm not sure how much mileage I'd get out of the THF line.

[akiraproject24]

Ive given a lot of thought into dropping the feats...(would make things so easy for my THF pure barb) but each time I go over it, I feel like Im hurting my toons DPS and back out. While I do spam cleaves, Im not ALWAYS throwing out cleaves and if I were 100% of the time cleaving I would have to have a macro or Id go nuts. To each their own but do not discount the THF feats, they are DPS in themselves and labeling them worthless is not a good opinion for newer players.

[FrozenNova]

With no THF line, you get 20% base damage glancing blows on 2 out of 4 swings.
With THF line, you get 50% base damage glancing blows on 3 out of 4 swings.
40% base damage over 4 swings versus 150% base damage out of 4 swings - or, 10% extra base damage per swing versus 37.5% extra base damage per swing.

Hence, the THF line essentially gives you an added 27.5% of your base damage to every swing when you're standing still. It also gives more for barbarians, since GTHF adds an extra glancing blow per 4 swings, which functions with frenzy / death frenzy and the capstone boost to glancing blow damage.

Is 27.5% of your base damage worth three feats against Overwhelming Critical's four feats?
Maybe. Considering that overwhelming critical is essentially +10% of your base damage every swing at 0% fort (being that it's +200% base damage over 20 swings) then THF is more meaningful when you're standing still. That said, overwhelming crit applies all the time, and also gives you cleaves to make up for the lack of aoe damage. I think it's still a fairly close decision.

[Synthetic]

Depends on epic destiny really, with dreadnought i noticed that i'm mostly spamming tactical feats instead of using normal attacks, and those don't produce glancing blows, talking mainly about cleaves here.

Cleaves do grant glancing blows some others may not.

[akash]

I only take "Toughness" for my Palemasters because that's a requirement for Lich form. For other classes that 22 hp feat and opening 10 hp Toughness enhancements is really not an attractive thing for me. However, if you feel squishy and don't have good hp items I highly recommend you should take Toughness. After u14 it's a piece of cake now to boost hp to 1K mark without having a single Toughness feat.

[djl]

Imo for high con toons, toughness is worthwhile simply for epic toughness. With 4 enhancements and both toughness feats, that's 112 HP. That's nothing to scoff at, even for massive HP toons like Barbarians.

And unless you plan to use Legendary Dreadnought ALL the time and button spam/twitch in every single fight (admittedly it is very effective though for someone with carpal tunnel problems it would get tiring quickly), you will be a gimpy 2HF without the full line. It provides a massive DPS boost.