New ac system

[anttoni11]

Is very poorly implement, earlier i was able to create miss miss miss toons till gh, now high ac gives me what 60% miss change compared earlier it was hit by roll 1 (95%).
So basically this change is not doing anything but beef up more casters now personal displacement + partly working ac.
End game getting slam like earlier, now i just take that slam all the way to 1-25 what make it eaven more horrible is that u get the earliest fort 100% lvl 9.

[Gremmlynn]

Yeah it sucks that incoming damage dropped from what was a joke for some to something that is merely easily managed for just about everyone.

[Antiguo]

Well, my new AC system works fine, sitting at 24ºC right now when outside its around 35ºC. I recomend you a Fujitsu.

[anttoni11]

Its not nice to get more those 40 damage poundings now besauce not yet 100% fort before lvl 9, that was covered earlier with high ac.

[ninjadwarf_uk]

Its not nice to get more those 40 damage poundings now besauce not yet 100% fort before lvl 9, that was covered earlier with high ac.

Shock horror! Melee enemies now present some threat below level 12?

[Antiguo]

Next thing you know, we will have to use tactics to get things done!!!

[anttoni11]

Shock horror! Melee enemies now present some threat below level 12?

Shock horror! casters are running now with 50%miss change+ 40%miss change by ac and now present walk eyes closed through dungeon.

[Antiguo]

Shock horror! casters are running now with 50%miss change+ 40%miss change by ac and now present walk eyes closed through dungeon.

The solution to casters being imbalanced is NOT to make everyone imbalanced. I sure hope you never work on MMRPGs for a living.

[anttoni11]

The solution to casters being imbalanced is NOT to make everyone imbalanced. I sure hope you never work on MMRPGs for a living.

And this is balance to make casters only viable class? who else get benefit by this system making low ac usable and nerf higher ac and make displacement personal?

[ninjadwarf_uk]

Shock horror! casters are running now with 50%miss change+ 40%miss change by ac and now present walk eyes closed through dungeon.

They multiply not add, so those casters are taking 30% of the hits at full damage.

Someone with a similar quality of equipment ( to the caster who had 40% miss from AC) should be getting at least the same mitigation from their AC, dodge, and PRR combined.

Oh and my wizard 16 / monk 2 only managed 39% miss from AC and that's with all the monk bonuses and pretty reasonable gear so I doubt there are many casters who are realistically getting 40% miss from AC.

[anttoni11]

They multiply not add, so those casters are taking 30% of the hits at full damage.

Someone with a similar quality of equipment ( to the caster who had 40% miss from AC) should be getting at least the same mitigation from their AC, dodge, and PRR combined.

Oh and my wizard 16 / monk 2 only managed 39% miss from AC and that's with all the monk bonuses and pretty reasonable gear so I doubt there are many casters who are realistically getting 40% miss from AC.

50% displacement+no need to be slamming rage+everything on top of that from ac is just more +
melees earlier 95% mis before gh is now all the way some 60%+no more displacements in group=who benefit?

[Ungood]

I want to know what a caster in cloth, is doing to get a 40% miss chance through AC alone.

[ninjadwarf_uk]

50% displacement+no need to be slamming rage+everything on top of that from ac is just more +
melees earlier 95% mis before gh is now all the way some 60%+no more displacements in group=who benefit?

Tell you what, post your melees AC (including miss chance at level) dodge and PRR % mitigation and I'll calculate your effective miss chance for you.

Also what gear are these casters using to get 40% miss chance at level?

[ninjadwarf_uk]

I want to know what a caster in cloth, is doing to get a 40% miss chance through AC alone.

In my case is something like the below, can't check for sure as not in game.

+6 robe
+6 Dex
+5 natural
+4 protection
+1 centred
+5 wisdom
+3? Ship buffs
+4 shield spell

This gives me a to miss at level of 39% at level 18, but I'm pretty sure that list is unusual

[BruceTheHoon]

And this is balance to make casters only viable class? who else get benefit by this system making low ac usable and nerf higher ac and make displacement personal?

Don't exaggerate.
High AC characters benefit greatly with these changes. Instead of being hit 95% of the time in epics, we now only get hit ~30% of the time and even that with up to 40% reduced damage. That's not a nerf.

If you're having problems in earlier game, I suggest crafting (or asking someone to craft) a moderate fortification item (ML5, ML3 with masterful craftsmanship) and invulnerability armor (CL15, ML1)

[Nullaer]

Shock horror! casters are running now with 50%miss change+ 40%miss change by ac and now present walk eyes closed through dungeon.

You need to make a non self healing caster and get him/her to level 20. Then you will see it's not as INCREDIBLY EASY as you think.

[SirValentine]

I want to know what a caster in cloth, is doing to get a 40% miss chance through AC alone.

It's Magic!

[Ungood]

In my case is something like the below, can't check for sure as not in game.

+6 robe
+6 Dex
+5 natural
+4 protection
+1 centred
+5 wisdom
+3? Ship buffs
+4 shield spell

This gives me a to miss at level of 39% at level 18, but I'm pretty sure that list is unusual

Oh. A MONK has a decent edge, not a caster per say, Good to know.

To be honest, no surprise there, pajama wearing tanks were all the rage before the AC change, the fact they can still rock the scene should be expected.

[QNecron]

Don't exaggerate.
High AC characters benefit greatly with these changes. Instead of being hit 95% of the time in epics, we now only get hit ~30% of the time and even that with up to 40% reduced damage. That's not a nerf.

If you're having problems in earlier game, I suggest crafting (or asking someone to craft) a moderate fortification item (ML5, ML3 with masterful craftsmanship) and invulnerability armor (CL15, ML1)

Not technically an exaggeration... My bard is sitting at 46% "defensive chance" and is only wearing a +3 leather armor and an +0 light mithral shield. No deflection, no natural and no dodge % increase.

Of course I'm only level 4 atm but as it stands I only have 20 AC lol. I have a level 9 Paladin/Fighter that is sitting at 42% defensive chance and only has a +4 full plate (Gorgon Plate) on, 32 AC total with buffs and shield clickie.

Heroic content atm is a little bit skewed IMO, there is no reason I should be benefiting that much with no investment into defense while at the same time those that do invest into AC get little to nothing for it. It just doesn't feel right. Sure epic (end game content) it might, and I use that word loosely, be working but in heroics it seems to do nothing for those that invest and everything for those that don't.

More tweaking is needed to make AC valuable again IMO. Until then I'm going to ride the no defense wave like most I've ran into (robes on FvS, Druids, Barbs and Fighters*) because Deathblock Robes of Heavy Fort are easy to come by and their MLs are nice and low.

Don't even get me started on PRR lol, it doesn't work with the low numbers we see in the 1-19 content. 30% of 30 damage is only 3. My tank, who has since been TR'd, was sitting at 90 PRR... or 38.69% DR. Literally nothing as the damage I took increased significantly after the patch (not damage per hit, but just BEING hit).


* With no Monk splashes mind you.

[Violith]

just by changing her equipment my lvl 20 Arcane bardcher (lvl12 frozen tunic (for the freezing ice proc) vs lv 16 parasytic breast plate) goes from a 5% and 0 ppr to 31% and 10 ppr(~6% damage reduction), I could probably get it to go higher if I used a lvl 20 armor, or a heavier one. but all of that stacks multiplicity with concealment/dodge/incorporeal (50% due to displace/1% dodge from cove trinket/10% incorp from epic cloak of night) So she should have ~70% defense chance with the armor on and a 58% without any, against lvl 20 mobs without true seeing.

Before she or anyone that didnt build for AC but had displacement had about a 53% against any mob (5% for those with true seeing). with only blurry they'd have a 24% (5% for those with ts) and for people without displace/blur they'ed have a 5%. so its a big difference.

you dont get anyone that can get a 95% defense chance any more against heroic content (atleast not directly, it is probably possible if you factor in dodge%/displacement... not sure what the defender builds can get since I dont have one), but these work all the way up into epics. before, you had to have an AC of like 110-120 to even have a chance at being missed in epics.

the only character i tried to build up AC was my rogue (not really built for AC, but he had the better gear to get his AC up high enough (atleast till vale...) with managed to get to ~65 sustainable (and ~80 raid buffed). so even raid buffed, he'd would've had a 5% defense chance in epics, and probably even in lvl 19-20 heroic quests with the same gear he now has a 59ac (due to dodge change) a 42% (showing) defense chance, but also has a 10% incorp, 14% dodge. (so he really has a 55% defense chance, against lvl 23 mobs (he's at lvl 23 atm) and with an ability (shadow dancer improved invisibility grants displacement for a minute when it wears off) he can get near 80% defense chance for about a minute to mobs without true seeing, every 5 or so)... if im figureing that out right XD (.58*.9*.86*=44.8 chance to be hit*.5 for improved invis displacement=22.4 chance to be hit with the displacement on) (thats with a shield, he usually dual wields (AC 45/25% defense chance = 42% defense chance without ability and ~70% with)

casters can get like a 58-60% defense chance if they tried counting concealment/dodge/incorp, unless they really tried to buff up their AC, which I dont see as all that possible, but that is only against mobs without true seeing. so they're not really that much over powered AC wise against anyone else.

Apart from DR (stoneskin giving 10/ada is quite abit. melees can get like a 7-9/- for barbs (or 15/- for 20s with action boost), 5/- is pretty much max for everyone else (cept monks 10/epic, or lobfvs 15/ada)) but theirs costs them SP, where as everyone else can basically have it all the time. sure they can cast displace on themselves but it doesnt give them as much defense chance/PPR as another class could get. so sure 6-12%(most my characters seems to get) damage reduct may not be much, but since DR affects the end result it could very well lower the damage down to 0, especially when you shield block. (Shield blocking stacks with pass DR)

[MrkGrismer]

Not every caster can keep displacement up 100% of the time.

[Diroctive]

well, my new ac system works fine, sitting at 24ºc right now when outside its around 35ºc. I recomend you a fujitsu.

+9000

[BruceTheHoon]

Not technically an exaggeration...

It is technically an exaggeration: This change does not make casters the only viable classes, casters are not the only ones benefiting from this and higher AC users did not get nerfed across the board.

Another such exaggeration (technically) can be found in the following paragraph:


Don't even get me started on PRR lol, it doesn't work with the low numbers we see in the 1-19 content. 30% of 30 damage is only 3. My tank, who has since been TR'd, was sitting at 90 PRR... or 38.69% DR. Literally nothing as the damage I took increased significantly after the patch (not damage per hit, but just BEING hit).

Reduction of damage for ~40% before DR is not literally nothing. If I may be subjective, it is more of a considerable something.
Also, because it irks me, 30% of 30 is not 3. It's 9.


Now to a more subjective and anecdotal part.
I too have an AC character. it's been high AC before the update (hit 90+ on a good day) and is still high AC now (~120 AC, ~140 PRR). This character has been gathering dust before the update (ToD and shroud twice a week, and that's it). this was purely because, while I could be almost untouchable in heroic quests, I got nothing out of it in epics. I don't know how you may feel about epics, but epic levels now represent 24%(or 20%) of the character's levels and XP wise, they represent 60% to 40% of the game.
Before the update, my caracter got hit 95% of the time in epics. Today, his total damage mitigation is 82%.

I don't have any first hand experience in the other mentioned level ranges, but by my calculations, a character investing heavily into AC would get hit approximately half as much as your characters. It would also be able to maintain and even increase it's damage mitigation through content, where monsters can actually hit hard. Good luck doing that with your robe.

I do agree, that PRR does not scale well with the levels. It has similar problems that the new spell power items have.

[anttoni11]

All i know about the diffrence is before update i runned to lvl 15 basically got hitted roll 1 and now i get hitted lvl 1-20 4 hits from 10.

[noinfo]

Next thing you know, we will have to use tactics to get things done!!!

So you are implying that melee did not use tactics before? AC is no different than dps its a tool that some of us managed to use with strategy. Though most of this stuff comes from people who never had an idea how ac worked, actually made an AC toon or they would know that AC did not equal god mode.

[noinfo]

They multiply not add, so those casters are taking 30% of the hits at full damage.



Which makes far less difference as the caster is probably self healing far more efficiently or is not getting hit anyway because during that miss miss miss they drop a CC down or instakill.

[noinfo]

They multiply not add, so those casters are taking 30% of the hits at full damage.

Someone with a similar quality of equipment ( to the caster who had 40% miss from AC) should be getting at least the same mitigation from their AC, dodge, and PRR combined.

Oh and my wizard 16 / monk 2 only managed 39% miss from AC and that's with all the monk bonuses and pretty reasonable gear so I doubt there are many casters who are realistically getting 40% miss from AC.

Monk 2 splash for AC is long dead. Easier to just pick up a shield for all the good it does.

[noinfo]

Don't exaggerate.
High AC characters benefit greatly with these changes. Instead of being hit 95% of the time in epics, we now only get hit ~30% of the time and even that with up to 40% reduced damage. That's not a nerf.



This bit is very deceptive. The epics we have now including hard are nothing like the previous version, it just indicates that the quest is above 20. How well is your AC holding up in EE?

[noinfo]

You need to make a non self healing caster and get him/her to level 20. Then you will see it's not as INCREDIBLY EASY as you think.

My main is a human archemage. Its not particulary hard at all.

[ninjadwarf_uk]

Monk 2 splash for AC is long dead. Easier to just pick up a shield for all the good it does.

The monk two splash is for evasion, the AC is a bonus.

Why would I use a shield instead of a thaumaturgy quarterstaff?

[Ertay]

Monk 2 splash for AC is long dead. Easier to just pick up a shield for all the good it does.

It has never been more alive, 18fvs 2mnk are pure rock n roll for various reasons, and it has nothing at all to do with wis to ac.

Also, you have to put the ac changes into perspective a bit. The % chance listed are only true for normal difficulty, where you don't really need to worry about incoming damage anyway because mobs just roll over and die when you look at them. Conversely, on elite you will have both a much lower % chance to avoid damage and it will be much higher to begin with.

So effectively, the ac of an average robe wearing caster will probably boil down to ~10% where it counts, if you take into account that they already had displacement you're looking at 45% chance to get hit down from 50%. At the same time, prr does not change at all with difficulty, so the heavy armor classes do have some inherent edge in the defensive department, and they can also get displacement clickies to boot.

[noinfo]

The monk two splash is for evasion, the AC is a bonus.

Why would I use a shield instead of a thaumaturgy quarterstaff?


Because you get to keep capstone and the spell pen for not having to splash, but I wont go into pros and cons, people enjoy playing whatever toon they like.

[noinfo]

It has never been more alive, 18fvs 2mnk are pure rock n roll for various reasons, and it has nothing at all to do with wis to ac.

Also, you have to put the ac changes into perspective a bit. The % chance listed are only true for normal difficulty, where you don't really need to worry about incoming damage anyway because mobs just roll over and die when you look at them. Conversely, on elite you will have both a much lower % chance to avoid damage and it will be much higher to begin with.

So effectively, the ac of an average robe wearing caster will probably boil down to ~10% where it counts, if you take into account that they already had displacement you're looking at 45% chance to get hit down from 50%. At the same time, prr does not change at all with difficulty, so the heavy armor classes do have some inherent edge in the defensive department, and they can also get displacement clickies to boot.

Ah so you have found maybe 1 of very few builds left that it is ok for. TBH I would still prefer a pure over it but each to their own.

on EE the defense against mobs are just plain lower all round but displacement is still king. Clickies are nice but that is more and more inventory.

[Stillwaters]

Not every caster can keep displacement up 100% of the time.

Lol srry but thats totally untrue.
My ftr monk (1/2 umd levels) can keep up displace 100% of the time from lvl 11 or so.
How the heck can you say a caster cannot...
1 equip slot (100displace scrolls) = permaDisplace.
and a arcane can use these scrolls before lvl 5 when they could (but probably shouldnt) memorize the spell.

Displace scrolls are extremely cheap, and available at vendors...

EDIT: also worth noting displace has no Arcane spell fail so is usable in fullplate with towershield.

[Moltier]

I too have an AC character. it's been high AC before the update (hit 90+ on a good day) and is still high AC now (~120 AC, ~140 PRR). This character has been gathering dust before the update (ToD and shroud twice a week, and that's it). this was purely because, while I could be almost untouchable in heroic quests, I got nothing out of it in epics. I don't know how you may feel about epics, but epic levels now represent 24%(or 20%) of the character's levels and XP wise, they represent 60% to 40% of the game.
Before the update, my caracter got hit 95% of the time in epics. Today, his total damage mitigation is 82%.


Bolded part is simply a lie. Too many people said AC was useless in pre u14 epics without a clue, and almost everyone accepted it as fact. It wasnt useless with that much AC. I soloed some of the hardest epics usually with 90-95AC. 90AC gave pretty good defense, ~50%. With old shield mastery and displacement (or with just blur) it was enough.

If the rumors are right about mobs new to hit (200 for EE bosses), your AC is just as good vs trash as before (50% defense), and almost as useless vs EE bosses as before (~12%defense). But now to hit debuffs will do next to nothing. :/
Its the other sourses that makes your defense good. PRR mostly. The only part in the combat change i like.

[Skavenaps]

Too many people said AC was useless in pre u14 epics without a clue,

yep too many peeps, included the devs. wake up from your dream. AC its now better than before. only shame was move away from the iconic d20.

[Moltier]

yep too many peeps, included the devs. wake up from your dream. AC its now better than before. only shame was move away from the iconic d20.

The devs who never had any clue about AC? The devs who created enemy bosses with 100-110ish to hit when the absolute highest AC was 90ish? The devs who didnt bother to do anything about AC for years, and ignored hundreds of people. The devs who never had any high AC characters?

I woke up from my dream when i actually built a high AC character, and used it in epics.
I never said AC wasnt broken. Actually i said many many times it was broken. You may want to reread what i wrote and perhaps what i replied for.

And yes, its a shame they couldnt fix the AC problem with the d20 system.

[MrkGrismer]

Cl t
Lol srry but thats totally untrue.
My ftr monk (1/2 umd levels) can keep up displace 100% of the time from lvl 11 or so.
How the heck can you say a caster cannot...
1 equip slot (100displace scrolls) = permaDisplace.
and a arcane can use these scrolls before lvl 5 when they could (but probably shouldnt) memorize the spell.

Displace scrolls are extremely cheap, and available at vendors...

EDIT: also worth noting displace has no Arcane spell fail so is usable in fullplate with towershield.

cl 5 so 30 sec duratiin, then you have to do it again. So, yeah I guess you can keep it up all the time if you want to stop every 25 seconds to scroll cast again.

Or I suppose you could go have all your teeth pulled one-by-one.

[issiana]

You need to make a non self healing caster and get him/her to level 20. Then you will see it's not as INCREDIBLY EASY as you think.

thers no such thing. everyone can drink pots.

sure it'll be costly in plat if you have a pot addiction, but casters + AOE + Pots = easy win. melee + pots = nothing but pain and failure.
Add in UMD for scroll/ wand healing and the caster gets very cheep self healing - unless your a WF then its way different. or a PM...

the new system is still heavily in favor of casters. want real proof .. make a new character on a server so your a total new folk and try out the difference between a melee and a caster.. casters have it so easy.