Feat-starved

[HatsuharuZ]

I really hate that phrase. It is true, however, that certain classes are at a severe disandvantage in the feat department. So I got this idea that could relieve some of the pressure on some of these classes. I think that some feats, especially some of the combat feats like the two-handed fighting lines, should be gotten rid of or changed to give increasing benefits based on the user's BAB or level. Something similar has already been done with AC given by armor, so it shouldn't be hard to impliment. Furthermore, opening up new feat slots would be a blessing for alot of builds.

[Rubiconn]

Yes i agree to an extent that some classes need a little more feat love but changing feats as you suggest would make things almost cartoonish.

the most difficult thing in character development is deciding which way to go with your char, this is part of the challenge for me. I am on a 3rd life Paly and I still have difficulties trying to balance what I can do with what I want to do. Its about choices and that is what makes the game so good. So many possibilities.

Some feat help would be nice but your premise is a bit flawed.

[HatsuharuZ]

Yes i agree to an extent that some classes need a little more feat love but changing feats as you suggest would make things almost cartoonish.

the most difficult thing in character development is deciding which way to go with your char, this is part of the challenge for me. I am on a 3rd life Paly and I still have difficulties trying to balance what I can do with what I want to do. Its about choices and that is what makes the game so good. So many possibilities.

Some feat help would be nice but your premise is a bit flawed.

To be more precise, I am suggesting that some of the higher tiers of combat feats should be gotten rid of, while some of the lower ones should be changed to provide more benefit. It would be absurd to completely get rid of the two-weapon fighting lines, for instance.

[Spindlethumb]

I think they should take out Improved and Greater TWF/THF from being selectable as a Feat. They could then change it so that anyone who has taken TWF/THF automatically receives the Improved and Greater Feats at certain BAB and DEX/STR levels.

I believe Improved THF requires 17 STR and 11 BAB? So if someone takes THF, it could automatically upgrade that Feat when the person reaches 17 STR and 11 BAB.

[sharachan]

And do the same for casters who are featstarved?

Give us free spellfocus and greater focus...


Have not rolled a fighter for the last 15 years but i recall that they got more feats than any other class, so why not play fighter if you need all these feats?

[ninjadwarf_uk]

To be more precise, I am suggesting that some of the higher tiers of combat feats should be gotten rid of, while some of the lower ones should be changed to provide more benefit. It would be absurd to completely get rid of the two-weapon fighting lines, for instance.

The whole point of the design, and the reason fighters and wizards get bonus feats, is that the feats they take replace class abilities that other classes get granted automatically.

So barbarians get rage, fast movement etc, fighters get to take feats instead.

Making feats easier to get devalues the classes that don't get many class features.

[Kominalito]

Making feats easier to get devalues the classes that don't get many class features.

^THIS. this ridiculous concern for balance is a fundamental misunderstanding of what D&D is, and just serves to water down every class until everyone is a self healing spellsword trap monkey with same dps formula.

[simo0208]

No reason to play a fighter with auto-feats, unless of course, you plan on taking toughness 11 times.

[Spindlethumb]

And do the same for casters who are featstarved?

Give us free spellfocus and greater focus...


Have not rolled a fighter for the last 15 years but i recall that they got more feats than any other class, so why not play fighter if you need all these feats?

Nobody is saying anything about "free" Feats. Just evolving Feats. Rather than having to take Greater Spell Focus, Spell Focus could -turn into- Greater Spell Focus once certain prerequisites were met.

Yes, a Human Fighter gets 19 Feats. Because Fighters can actually make use of all those Feats. A Human Sorcerer only gets 7 Feats, which really aren't enough.

Classes that already get bonus Feats, like Wizard, Artificer, Fighter, Rogue, etc. shouldn't be given these advantages. The ones that have absolutely no bonus Feats, like Cleric or Sorcerer, should.

[EllisDee37]

So I got this idea that could relieve some of the pressure on some of these classes.U14 already did that by giving everyone in the game two more feats.

[HatsuharuZ]

Nobody is saying anything about "free" Feats. Just evolving Feats. Rather than having to take Greater Spell Focus, Spell Focus could -turn into- Greater Spell Focus once certain prerequisites were met.

Yes, a Human Fighter gets 19 Feats. Because Fighters can actually make use of all those Feats. A Human Sorcerer only gets 7 Feats, which really aren't enough.

Classes that already get bonus Feats, like Wizard, Artificer, Fighter, Rogue, etc. shouldn't be given these advantages. The ones that have absolutely no bonus Feats, like Cleric or Sorcerer, should.

But then those classes would be on the road to becoming carbon copies of another. Why bother playing wizard with it's free bonus feats if you can the same result (and with a MUCH better result with the savant PrE) by taking sorcerer?

tbh, I was thinking more about melees and melee builds than I was casters...

[Enoach]

Usually the term Feat Starved is in reference to "Selectable Feats" vs Auto Granted Feats (or Class Features)

Of all of the classes - Sorcerer comes out as the class with the fewest features - Faster Casting and Double Spell Points from items plus 7 Feats from Heroic Level and 2 Epic (not counting racial bonuses as we are discussing classes).

The problem I see with removing the Last Feat in a chain like TWF/THF is not that it would allow classes that are hard pressed to get the entire line the ability to get this line, but that it potentially opens up 1 or 2 feats for those that currently could afford the entire line. This would actually give them a greater advantage in depth than they already have.

There is nothing wrong with the feat structure as it is now, and classes like fighter which have the most selectable feats and the fewest features allows them to have the depth or width of abilities other classes cannot gain.

[noinfo]

The biggest issue I have is with feats that I cannot remember exisiting in PNP (and these are for melee) and revolve around
1. 2 Handed fighting (these method was a feat free way for Barbs and Pallies to dps with in PNP) but realistically it is necessary for tanks and 2 handed fighters to get closer dps with the 2WF.
2. Toughness, not so much the toughness feat but the unlocks it provides. As discussed in so many threads 20-25 hp you can live without but the total of 45- 100 or whatever is pretty steep. (this one accross the board inc casters)

These are probably the areas that result in melee being more feat starved then they should be.

[HatsuharuZ]

The biggest issue I have is with feats that I cannot remember exisiting in PNP (and these are for melee) and revolve around
1. 2 Handed fighting (these method was a feat free way for Barbs and Pallies to dps with in PNP) but realistically it is necessary for tanks and 2 handed fighters to get closer dps with the 2WF.
2. Toughness, not so much the toughness feat but the unlocks it provides. As discussed in so many threads 20-25 hp you can live without but the total of 45- 100 or whatever is pretty steep. (this one accross the board inc casters)

These are probably the areas that result in melee being more feat starved then they should be.

1) Agreed. Well, I should say "I never saw this in Neverwinter Nights 1 or 2", actually. It's kind of hard to ignore, considering the glancing blow mechanic. It would help out alot if the effects of the entire THF line could be squeezed into two feats instead of three, mostly because of...

2) Toughness. Yes, this feat is VERY powerful. No one (if they understand how much it can do for them) would NOT take this feat. In addition to the HP it gives by itself, with enhancements one can gain anywhere from 20 to 80 HP. You might say that it's manditory for everyone.... and that is a problem, I think.

[FranOhmsford]

Paladins and Clerics especially are at least one feat short atm - I'd suggest three bonus feats be given to them at Lvls 6, 12 and 18 - This still wouldn't give them anywhere near the feats of a Fighter of course and less than a Wizard.

Sorcerors do have a Problem feat wise but also don't use as many as Wizards - I'd suggest giving them 2 bonus feats at Lvls 8 and 16.

Souls as Sorcs.

Bards really should get Open Locks and possibly Disable as a Class ability {keep them at half rate but make them takeable without splashing Rogue/Arti} - In PnP they were always petty thieves.
Evasion wouldn't go amiss either - Maybe give them it at the same rate as Rangers.

Rangers - Oh Dear God! Ranger Bonus feats keep getting used as an excuse for the lack of takeable feats this class gets - Seriously this is not good enough!
Yes Dodge and Mobility have finally got a boost - Not enough of one in my view.
Mental Toughness is a feat tax on Arcane Archers.
Deepwood Sniper is totally borked atm.

[KillEveryone]

I don't agree with your idea.

I do think that some PrE requirements regarding some feats should be looked at. Some are useful, some got nerfed in the last update so they are a waste of a feat.

[sharachan]

There is a reson a fighter get a lot of feats and a sorc get few. A fighter is useless without the correct feat but a sorc is not. A sorc just get awesome with the right feats...

The feats is a bonus to compensate for missing class features. If you compare a fighter with a barb it is easy to spot. A barb get DR and rage, and the fighter get a few feats.

The classes are supposed to be different, and no class should be able to do everything. The whole idea behind D&D is a party cooperating where everybody contribute with their special skills.

The classes was never meant to be balanced.

[Nagantor]

Classes should be different and none should be the best choice. Each must have drawbacks.

Feat starved is very much a power gamers world. You don't need to have full THF line for example, it's just better then the alternatives usually. Sad thing in this game is that there's an obvious choice for most feats on most classes and the real benefit would be to have more options and different builds. Of course, Epic Destiny and epic feats go some way in that direction already.
You're not a good player for playing the great template, you're a good player for making the correct choices to gain most power from your own playstyle.

For example, if you know that you're not using 20s action boosts often as you rarely remember them or don't play enough to know when the right moment to activate them comes - choose different enhancements. If you're not likely to use some active feats for full effect, take passive ones.

Power comes from making the right choices and what's right is tied to the player, no global answer. Having to make some tough choices and the option to make combinations that look crazy at first glance work is what differentiates this game from others. Many new MMORPG appearing on the market can't draw many players from this game or only for a short try out. This game has a depth of complexity which is far beyond most others and keeping many people attached to it. Friends tried to convince me to play SW:TOR, Rift or WoW with them, but if found those to be bland and quickly boring.

[Algreg]

I think this is a distorted perception of the topic. There are no "feat starved" classes, but there are classes which have more feats as their class strength while other classes have different advantages.

[Xynot2]

Part of the game's appeal is that it's NOT easy. Even in PnP the challenge is to plan well enough to maximize the ones you do choose. It has always been the idea behind character creation that there would be something lacking so that the character wouldn't be all powerful. Too much emphasis has already been placed on soloability. While I realize that in an MMO you want some soloability, the fact still remains that DnD is supposed to be a team sport to compensate for the deficiencies of the individual. But, If you are seriously worried about feat starvation, always go human and always add 2 levels of fighter. That's 3 extra feats for 2 levels.

[Rusty_Can]

Paladins and Clerics especially are at least one feat short atm - I'd suggest three bonus feats be given to them at Lvls 6, 12 and 18

Scrap feats! Clerics want Domains! *ducks and hides*

[Ausdoerrt]

I think this is a distorted perception of the topic. There are no "feat starved" classes, but there are classes which have more feats as their class strength while other classes have different advantages.

There are no feat-starved classes, there are feat-starved builds. People should start learning the difference.

What the OP wants, I gather, is the game to make the builds for him so that there's no thought put in, and no choices made. Might as well stop playing DDO, just about all other MMOs do that.

The one sensible way to open up some feats (on the devs' side) is to take care of the bloated HP/damage to remove the necessity of taking the Toughness feat on every class. Change prerequisites for toughness enhancement lines in the meantime to allow more flexibility - e.g. make the feat a prerequisite only for higher-tier toughness enhancements. IIRC, there was already a good topic about that.

[HatsuharuZ]

There are no feat-starved classes, there are feat-starved builds. People should start learning the difference.

What the OP wants, I gather, is the game to make the builds for him so that there's no thought put in, and no choices made. Might as well stop playing DDO, just about all other MMOs do that.

The one sensible way to open up some feats (on the devs' side) is to take care of the bloated HP/damage to remove the necessity of taking the Toughness feat on every class. Change prerequisites for toughness enhancement lines in the meantime to allow more flexibility - e.g. make the feat a prerequisite only for higher-tier toughness enhancements. IIRC, there was already a good topic about that.

What you gathered is wrong. I am not asking for free feats, I just want each feat slot I use up to be worth the cost.

I didn't start this thread in order to beg the devs for anything, I just put my idea out here so that other people could give their own opinions on the topic... which you have certainly done, sir. I'm impressed that you could troll and actually say something intelligent in the same post. Good job!

In retrospect, perhaps I should put out a more detailed proposal. Oh well. *shrugs*

[Scraap]

They could do more to emphasize the side-benefits of classes with fewer feats.

Giving more away though? No thanks.

[Xynot2]

Human race= 1 xtra feat
2 lvs fighter = 2 extra feats

but by doing so you may actually gimp your toon.

again... dnd is supposed to be a team sport so there will always be holes in a build that require you to take some one with you that can fill those holes. (yeah yeah... That's what she said.... I know). Look around the builds threads. There are a lot of good multiclass builds that show that you can do a lot in what you consider feat starvation.