Turbine, stop nerfkilling your own game before its too late...

[frayberg007]

Hello,

I do not post here often, because mostly i play and just take things as they come. However, this update has been so brutal i felt i had to do something.

I feel that the game is being destroyed right now. I feel that this update, despite bringing some of the best content this game has ever seen is a horrible disaster. And I feel i need to to share my point of view and maybe someone with some authority will notice.

First of all I am currently playing a Stalwart Defender fighter. My character has been hit pretty hard. My ToD rings are nerfed. My Chimera Crown with its 30 Spell Resist does nothing on any epic difficulty as casters command me at will even on E/N in the ITD i've been grinding (something i do every life before i TR). And you utterly destroyed my main source of dps, yes the Terror sword (currently using the axe from C challenges). Now all of this is relevant and important, but there is even a bigger issue...

The new break down of Epics into cas/n/h/e is the main problem that i think will hurt this game tremendously and let me explain. As is we have 3 types of characters right now. For ease ill break them down into 3 groups.

Alpha (Super high clearing speed and strong utility): Wizard, Monk, FVS, Cleric, Druid (some of you might laugh at druid being here, but there is a few caster built druids that do very well...not a newb friendly class though)
Beta (Super high DPS): Barbs (with adrenaline), Sorcs
Omega (some utility, situational dps): SD Ftr, DoS Paly, Rngr, Rog, Brd

Now the Alpha group can currently solo most epic hards, no problem. The beta's can easily solo e/n and possibly epic hards with some issues. Any combination of Alpha + Beta will easily duo pretty much any epic hard in the game. The problem is, the situational utility classes which where super useful in the old epic content now lost most of their appeal for the optimized group. Heck, the group itself now is pretty optimized at just 2 players from alpha or alpha + beta category (beta is great on boss fights). And the only time Omega group is actually needed is for EE content which pretty much nobody runs due to poor risk/reward ratio.

Now last i checked this was an MMO, a social game. With this last update, i feel that social structure of this game has been severely damaged. I always felt the risk/reward ratio was in a pretty bad shape in this game, but due to great artwork and fun content you could ignore the poor performance of the ballancing department. I think this time the guys there really messed things up and if its not adressed quickly what could have been the best update ever can turn into the biggest disaster ever.

xxx

Some possible solutions:

1.) Remove game scaling from epic levels. The Quest should be just as hard with 2 players as it is with 6. Scaling is clearly broken anyways, and when players prefer to run a quest with 2 over full group you know something is wrong.
2.) Remove N and H mode from epic. Lower the difficulty on elite slightly and maybe add a new mode for level 25s with full destiny unlock (add appropriate rewards for the new difficulty so its worth running)
3.) I know its probably too late to change the whole new loot gen system that was implemented but at least re-instate Terror and the Monk Wraps to former levels. Those items where pretty essential on lower str melee builds - WF FVS, Dos Paly, SD Ftr. Those items where never OP and they allowed a lower str utility class to be a contributor in a group.
4.) This one will take a while...Re-evaluate the feats your epic NPCs have access too. Currently the casters are very powerful, they have access to too many feats. Having my 30 spell Resist broken 100% on epic normal (cr23) is pretty bad. Having a level 16 Stormreaver disintegrate for 850 is REALLY bad. Limit the number of feats the NPC casters can take and heavily.

I think the suggestions above is a good start for the discussion. Again i urge you guys to take a good look at what you have done with this update. The game play is awesome. The ideas are awesome. The destinies are great (probably need more work though, i mean com'n you nerf Wail and give monks EiN?). But the game balancing, scaling, different level epics are working Bad with a capital B.

Anyways, its pretty late i might have made some spelling mistakes and what not, but i hope you get the point.

Ty for your time.

p.s. oh yeah...remove the nerf to house C exp. The challenges that where being abused are the new ones, C has been around forever and there wasnt any issues.

[Nestroy]

Hello,

I do not post here often, because mostly i play and just take things as they come. However, this update has been so brutal i felt i had to do something.

I feel that the game is being destroyed right now. I feel that this update, despite bringing some of the best content this game has ever seen is a horrible disaster. And I feel i need to to share my point of view and maybe someone with some authority will notice.

First of all I am currently playing a Stalwart Defender fighter. My character has been hit pretty hard. My ToD rings are nerfed. My Chimera Crown with its 30 Spell Resist does nothing on any epic difficulty as casters command me at will even on E/N in the ITD i've been grinding (something i do every life before i TR). And you utterly destroyed my main source of dps, yes the Terror sword (currently using the axe from C challenges). Now all of this is relevant and important, but there is even a bigger issue...

The new break down of Epics into cas/n/h/e is the main problem that i think will hurt this game tremendously and let me explain. As is we have 3 types of characters right now. For ease ill break them down into 3 groups.

Alpha (Super high clearing speed and strong utility): Wizard, Monk, FVS, Cleric, Druid (some of you might laugh at druid being here, but there is a few caster built druids that do very well...not a newb friendly class though)
Beta (Super high DPS): Barbs (with adrenaline), Sorcs
Omega (some utility, situational dps): SD Ftr, DoS Paly, Rngr, Rog, Brd

Now the Alpha group can currently solo most epic hards, no problem. The beta's can easily solo e/n and possibly epic hards with some issues. Any combination of Alpha + Beta will easily duo pretty much any epic hard in the game. The problem is, the situational utility classes which where super useful in the old epic content now lost most of their appeal for the optimized group. Heck, the group itself now is pretty optimized at just 2 players from alpha or alpha + beta category (beta is great on boss fights). And the only time Omega group is actually needed is for EE content which pretty much nobody runs due to poor risk/reward ratio.

Now last i checked this was an MMO, a social game. With this last update, i feel that social structure of this game has been severely damaged. I always felt the risk/reward ratio was in a pretty bad shape in this game, but due to great artwork and fun content you could ignore the poor performance of the ballancing department. I think this time the guys there really messed things up and if its not adressed quickly what could have been the best update ever can turn into the biggest disaster ever.

xxx

Some possible solutions:

1.) Remove game scaling from epic levels. The Quest should be just as hard with 2 players as it is with 6. Scaling is clearly broken anyways, and when players prefer to run a quest with 2 over full group you know something is wrong.
2.) Remove N and H mode from epic. Lower the difficulty on elite slightly and maybe add a new mode for level 25s with full destiny unlock (add appropriate rewards for the new difficulty so its worth running)
3.) I know its probably too late to change the whole new loot gen system that was implemented but at least re-instate Terror and the Monk Wraps to former levels. Those items where pretty essential on lower str melee builds - WF FVS, Dos Paly, SD Ftr. Those items where never OP and they allowed a lower str utility class to be a contributor in a group.
4.) This one will take a while...Re-evaluate the feats your epic NPCs have access too. Currently the casters are very powerful, they have access to too many feats. Having my 30 spell Resist broken 100% on epic normal (cr23) is pretty bad. Having a level 16 Stormreaver disintegrate for 850 is REALLY bad. Limit the number of feats the NPC casters can take and heavily.

I think the suggestions above is a good start for the discussion. Again i urge you guys to take a good look at what you have done with this update. The game play is awesome. The ideas are awesome. The destinies are great (probably need more work though, i mean com'n you nerf Wail and give monks EiN?). But the game balancing, scaling, different level epics are working Bad with a capital B.

Anyways, its pretty late i might have made some spelling mistakes and what not, but i hope you get the point.

Ty for your time.

p.s. oh yeah...remove the nerf to house C exp. The challenges that where being abused are the new ones, C has been around forever and there wasnt any issues.

Mostly +1, one question on personal interest - using your Alpha-Omega-System, where do you see the Arty?

[grayham]

There's quite a lot of stuff in there, so I will only address a few things that came to mind. I have some sympathy with you, and unlike many other threads you are using some constructive language and your response is measured. Now I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but my reading of your post is "I was enjoying the game before, and you've changed things, so now I'm not."

Anyway, some points.

1. How did your ToD rings get nerfed? Genuine question.
2. The Terror debate has ran on numerous threads. I don't want to cause any upset, but when you say Terror "allowed a lower str utility class to be a contributor in a group" a lot of people felt it "allowed characters with average builds to easily obtain a cheatstick". I personally felt it was OP, though if it were my main weapon pre U14 I'd probably be upset too.
3. I actually really like the Epic C/N/H/E system. It was designed to get the majority of players into epics (they weren't before) and has succeeded. Yes E Hard could use some work, as could E normal on certain Raids.
4. A lot of your issues seem to have arisen from things being too difficult. Your spell resistance is broken easily, you can't kill instantly with terror any more. We are less than a month into this expansion. There are a whole bunch of destinies to unlock, Epic levels to attain and new gear to find. Just because you're suffering now doesn't mean that will always be the case. The goalposts have moved and people need to move with them.

Try to see it as a challenge to be met, rather than a change for the worse.

[frayberg007]

Mostly +1, one question on personal interest - using your Alpha-Omega-System, where do you see the Arty?

arti is a beta that turns into omega on EE setting where your dps is mediocre at best but you have great buffing utility not to mention a large variety of scrolls. I guess the real question is how much does your BB hit for?


There's quite a lot of stuff in there, so I will only address a few things that came to mind. I have some sympathy with you, and unlike many other threads you are using some constructive language and your response is measured. Now I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but my reading of your post is "I was enjoying the game before, and you've changed things, so now I'm not."

Anyway, some points.

1. How did your ToD rings get nerfed? Genuine question.

Stalwart Defender PRE no longer stacks with + 2 effects on rings. I lost 2str/con

2. The Terror debate has ran on numerous threads. I don't want to cause any upset, but when you say Terror "allowed a lower str utility class to be a contributor in a group" a lot of people felt it "allowed characters with average builds to easily obtain a cheatstick". I personally felt it was OP, though if it were my main weapon pre U14 I'd probably be upset too.

Except we all know that any str based dps class built right outperformed Terror with dual GS dual Khopesh or an ESoS or EAGA...i am just a seal away from the EAga but i still wouldn't come close in dps to high str builds on this toon.

3. I actually really like the Epic C/N/H/E system. It was designed to get the majority of players into epics (they weren't before) and has succeeded. Yes E Hard could use some work, as could E normal on certain Raids.

No argument there, if you play Alpha or Beta classes you can solo or duo those epics. There is no reason to run EE or have a full group or even a group in some cases. To me the epics are more or less the end game for DDO. I guess the real question would be, is solo mode good for end game?

4. A lot of your issues seem to have arisen from things being too difficult. Your spell resistance is broken easily, you can't kill instantly with terror any more. We are less than a month into this expansion. There are a whole bunch of destinies to unlock, Epic levels to attain and new gear to find. Just because you're suffering now doesn't mean that will always be the case. The goalposts have moved and people need to move with them.

I honestly do not feel things are "too hard". I can solo some E/N, although at a much slower paces pace than the alpha or beta group. Sometimes people join the lfm, most just run solo/duo for max exp and what not. I feel the problem is solo mode in MMO is not a good idea and will lead to burn out. Coupled with the release of GW2 and Neverwinter Online you could possibly see lots of bored players heading that way.

Try to see it as a challenge to be met, rather than a change for the worse.

I think the update has alot of good, just the bad is so bad that its just bad =d.

[qoolboxer]

The nerf is necessary... to make the expansion "attractive". The idea is simple - nerf the old stuff so that the new ones are relatively better. It is all about selling the expansion. Next year when a new expansion comes, the shinies from the current expansion will be nerfed too.

[DoctorWhofan]

Winds of change.

Really.

Some good, soome buggy. However, I reason that Turbine has a reason for many of their choices, most to do that this is a social game, so many of the things that got nerfed are due to what they think is overpowered thus solo'able. Now, Terror was overpowered, they say. Ok. Can't judge on that. Minos Legen got nerfed...rather the Fort got nerfed...sorta. FvS took a hit. Enough that I brushed off my level 12 to see. Yuppers, they are nerfed. As one of premier solo classes, I saw that one coming. Unfortunally, it hit the clerics too, though not as hard. Meh. In my opinion, clerics are overpowered. Oh well, 4 years of being a powerhouse. Waiting on the arti's to get hit with the hammer, for mine (so far, he's only level 10) is a solo machine.

I remember the tears when Tempest Ranger got smacked.

Turbine is trying the balance the game. Some of the changes will revert (some partially, some not) and some will stay. I have been here long enough not to go "OH MY GOD!" at every nerf, rather to see what the next couple of updates and/or patches bring before I start my screaming match.

What happens in the meantime? I change how I play my character. My FvS used the free LTR went sword and board, now that armour has meaning, vice TWF. Upped his WIS for more powerful heals. So he's more healer/melee specced. He's currently grabbing some house Cannith challenge gear.

THen again, I don't play the flavour of the month, nor to I activaly seek out the newest uber gearage. So alot of nerfs tend to be trivial to me.

For me, it's a mindset thing. I make my clerics flexible (aka generalists) so nerfs don't effect them that much. Nor am I bothered by healing more than usual. I spent the first two years of this game doing nothing but being pigeonholed into healing only (until more offensive spells were added, thank you BB!) It doesn't bother me to do it.

All I can say is, try looking at your character in a different way. Putting labels on classes doesn't help; just makes the blinders more real. It may require a rebuild, or just a change of gear. IT may mean putting the shield up or even carrying one in the first place.

Also, with Eveningstar and Faerun, it's a whole new ballgame. Things are different. PErhaps you should look at it in a different light.

[SirValentine]

1.) Remove game scaling from epic levels.


Nope, sorry. Turbine knows that solo players are a major customer demographic. Scaling was one of the best things they could do.



2.) Remove N and H mode from epic.


Are you still under the impression that "Epic" refers to difficulty? It's nothing but a word for levels 20-25.

There should be "Normal" level 22 quests just as much as "Normal" level 17 quests, and for the same audience. If you want more difficulty, you run a higher difficulty, such as "Elite", which has nothing to do with "Epic" or not.



3.) I know its probably too late to change the whole new loot gen system that was implemented but at least re-instate Terror and the Monk Wraps to former levels.


Nightmare needed to be nerfed on the random lootgen stuff, but I agree there was no need to nerf a couple otherwise-lackluster named items.

[Ryiah]

2. The Terror debate has ran on numerous threads. I don't want to cause any upset, but when you say Terror "allowed a lower str utility class to be a contributor in a group" a lot of people felt it "allowed characters with average builds to easily obtain a cheatstick". I personally felt it was OP, though if it were my main weapon pre U14 I'd probably be upset too.

I know it certainly allowed my poorly equipped fighter to stand up with more decently equipped players and appear to be contributing. I never thought that I was cheating, but I do know my fighter should not have been in some of those places as poorly geared as she was. It very much was due for a nerf.

Now players actually need to be able to contribute without simply being gimps with a sword.



3. I actually really like the Epic C/N/H/E system. It was designed to get the majority of players into epics (they weren't before) and has succeeded. Yes E Hard could use some work, as could E normal on certain Raids.

Quite easily succeeded from what I've seen. Thanks to challenges the old Epics had practically ceased being run and were largely getting ignored. The OP talks about Turbine killing off their game but completely fails to realize that removing lower difficulties would do just that. I'm all in favor of increasing challenge in Elite content, but I'm also in favor of allowing average/casual players having access to content. This is an MMO - it does not cater to one demographic.

[Aurora1979]

The problem Op is that opinions are like bottoms. Everyones got one and they all stink.

Fact is no matter what someone says on these forums someone else will always come along and counter that argument.

I want X nerfed, you don't.

You want Y changed I don't.

We both know Z needs changing but fred argues against just for giggles.

You come up with a good idea and some forums "leet" comes along and shouts you down with his cronies so you shut up........

Its endless. All I would say, after 5 years Ive noticed.....

1. If it benefits players it will be nerfed quickly.

2. If it hinders players or their play time if will be fixed whenever the devs can be bothered, usually a long time later.

3. No matter how uber, or weak, you feel a certain thing is, and that it needs changing, someone else will always try to counter your point even if its obviously correct.

4. People on these forums like NOTHING better then runining other peoples fun/ game. All the time we hear, nerf this or change that because I dont have one, it has absolutly zero effect on me but I'm going to cry about it because I can and I wont stop till the devs mistake me for the vocal majority.

5. Trubine is like a lounge lizard pretty boy. They only care how things look to a new comer. If you stay a while and pick around you will find what a state the game is in but they don't care.

either A. you will stay waiting for it to get better or B you leave. Turbine hasn't grasped that by leaving you take business with you and effect fututre business. As an internet based company, like many of them these days, they don't have to worry about the individual customer.

Just fob them off, plenty more where they came from.

[Ryiah]

Its endless. All I would say, after 5 years Ive noticed.....

6. Some random person will show up and present a wall of text that really has no bearing on the discussion expecting us to read it and benefit somehow. :p

[sirgog]

TOD rings nerfed on a SD? The set bonus does the same thing, the 20% healing amp still works, and the only 'nerf' has been to the second ring's exceptional Con or Str if you used one (most SD gearsets did not).

If you were using a second TOD ring or second set - get a reasonably easily acquired Seal of House Dun'robar instead. It is just better and your toon ends up stronger.

Your SR should be better now than it ever has been before - you can twist in +9 stacking from GMOF, and 39 SR actually works in some Epic content now. (Actually 30 is worth having although not great in EN content).


Terror obviously needed a nerf, it was so much better than every other weapon in the game against most trash since the U9 (or so) buff that it was obviously coming. Sorry, no more 75% chance to kill 2000hp mobs on every single crit (which worked out to 300 'damage' per swing). Goodbye and good riddance. It is still the best weapon in the game for Rust Monsters, some Oozes and (along with other Nightmare weapons) a small number of very specific Epic foes (EE Mephits)

[Forzah]

TOD rings nerfed on a SD? The set bonus does the same thing, the 20% healing amp still works, and the only 'nerf' has been to the second ring's exceptional Con or Str if you used one (most SD gearsets did not).

If you were using a second TOD ring or second set - get a reasonably easily acquired Seal of House Dun'robar instead. It is just better and your toon ends up stronger.

Your SR should be better now than it ever has been before - you can twist in +9 stacking from GMOF, and 39 SR actually works in some Epic content now. (Actually 30 is worth having although not great in EN content).


Terror obviously needed a nerf, it was so much better than every other weapon in the game against most trash since the U9 (or so) buff that it was obviously coming. Sorry, no more 75% chance to kill 2000hp mobs on every single crit (which worked out to 300 'damage' per swing). Goodbye and good riddance. It is still the best weapon in the game for Rust Monsters, some Oozes and (along with other Nightmare weapons) a small number of very specific Epic foes (EE Mephits)

Sirgog for president!

[Svartelric]

Alpha (Super high clearing speed and strong utility): Wizard, Monk, FVS, Cleric, Druid (some of you might laugh at druid being here, but there is a few caster built druids that do very well...not a newb friendly class though)
Beta (Super high DPS): Barbs (with adrenaline), Sorcs
Omega (some utility, situational dps): SD Ftr, DoS Paly, Rngr, Rog, Brd


I have no problem soloing EHard on my Tempest Fury of the Wild, and the Pallies in my guild are the best tank I've ever seen on the server. Also, Bards ftw - and where would you place Arties?

All in all, I think how anyone rates classes is very subjective and depends on personal experiences. If you ask me I would probably see Sorcs above Clerics and Wizards, as far as solo ability, but again, that's just me.

[Truga]

Omega (some utility, situational dps): SD Ftr, DoS Paly, Rngr, Rog, Brd

lol.

[Aurora1979]

6. Some random person will show up and present a wall of text that really has no bearing on the discussion expecting us to read it and benefit somehow. :p

That wasn't a wall of text. I put spaces in and everything. Stop reading it on your nokia 9300. :p

Also, I'm not a prophet, I dont expect people to walk away from my points feeling enlightened but I think my point stands. The op is pointing out some reasons that turbine is damaging the game and I agree.

The game is still good, in my opinion hence why I stay, but I don't think I have to blow smoke up anyone. My point is the game is never changed to match what people want as per forum threads.

The discussions go round in circles then the devs change whatever they feel like regardless.

[frayberg007]

Terror obviously needed a nerf, it was so much better than every other weapon in the game against most trash since the U9 (or so) buff that it was obviously coming. Sorry, no more 75% chance to kill 2000hp mobs on every single crit (which worked out to 300 'damage' per swing). Goodbye and good riddance. It is still the best weapon in the game for Rust Monsters, some Oozes and (along with other Nightmare weapons) a small number of very specific Epic foes (EE Mephits)

Right, and we currently have barbarians crittin for 2-3k like 20% of their hits. Sorc's critting 5k+. Over half the classes in the game have access to an insta-kill spell or ability most even AoE. Honestly the argument is pretty silly but no point to really go on cause that is entirely not the point of my OP.

If we can agree that epics are the "end game" for DDO. And if we can agree that most of these epic's can be solo'd on normal easily and on hard with some effort (if you belong to the Alpha or Beta group as broken down in my OP) than we can conclude that DDO is turning into a single player game at its very core IE the end game. At that point the real question is than...can DDO compete with ME3, Diablo 3, Assassin's creed or any other single player RPG (some of which have pretty desent multiplayer). Not a very good position to be in for a game that is an MMO. I would call it an Epic Elite Fail :).

P.S. For rust monsters and Oozes i recommend a +5 Acid Burst Great Axe of Everbright. Works much better than Terror ever did, and only requires 50 or so crafting skill. If you want to get fancy make a Byeshik one, and you can beat up the mindflayers in HoX with the same axe to make it more multi-purpose. To make this item even more useful you can make it at level 5 if you drop the +5 and master craft it, use it all the way to 20 and tag a +5 onto it at 20 ;).

[DrakHar]

Apparently regular fighters and paladins aren't even on his list..

[JOTMON]

TOD rings nerfed on a SD? The set bonus does the same thing, the 20% healing amp still works, and the only 'nerf' has been to the second ring's exceptional Con or Str if you used one (most SD gearsets did not).



To clarify a bit the change to the TOD sets did screw stalwarts.

The +1 bonuses on ToD Rings were changed to competence, and the +2 bonus to insight.
The +2 change had no impact however the +1 change to the TOD rings screw Stalwarts because the Stalwart Defender stance gives a competence bonus to Strength and Constitution. So everyone who reworked their toons to get themselves even with the TOD set are now odd again.

This did not affect other classes as they use different bonuses like DOS uses Sacred kensai was untyped and became psionic (another change thad makes no sense).

I found this quite annoying on my WF stalwart who I had LR'd to adjust my stats to be even with my TOD Stalwart set.

No point running the new stuff with my WF due to the broken heal amp and other WF changes , so its packmule time for him until I see some WF improvements or decide to TR fleshie.

[Beetlebluebird]

Currently soloing my way down the EH quest list and loving it. :) On my Bard that is. \o/ My only complaint is that Ehard is just a bit too easy compared to Eelite whilst Enormal is a snorefest.

[MRMechMan]

Upped his WIS for more powerful heals.


Interesting.


Anyway, the developers and coders are both doing a fairly miserable job IMO lately, so much so that it is difficult to tell what is a nerf and what is a bug.

For example, my WF fvs:

Eardweller now diseases him with NO save-WAI?
Yet cannot eat eardweller eggs-Bug?
Leviks DR randomly reduced by 4-WAI?
Bracelet of Madness has less potency than a ML13 pirate hat-Bug?
Heal spell only gets 1/2 spell power-eventually confirmed as WAI after a lot of calculator whipping and head scratching
WF healers friend broken-No dev comment
Wings did not recharge-eventually confirmed as bug and fixed
Blade barrier and light damage spell power not adding up-devs are ignoring this one, bug/WAI?
Randomly loses fortification-bug
Randomly loses WF immunities-bug...or WAI for disease/poison
Random loot gives more spell power than old epic loot-WAI
Some epic ML20 items do not give 90 devotion randomly-bug?

And that is just off the top of my head before I have had my coffee.


Basically the character is performing at a lower level than before, and it is tough to pick through the pieces of this debacle and find out what will be fixed and what they actually meant to do.

[TheStog]

I like the idea of scaling in quests so that you don't need a full group to tackle content. I don't think the scaling in raids is appropriate, at least not scaling down all the way to solo.

Personally I think there should be no scaling in Raids. Or at the very least cap the scaling to say 6 people(although only for easier difficulties, EE Raids should never scale).

Quests in general were never that hard to solo...but short manning/solo even normal raids was an accomplishment...and from what I hear thats no longer so. Very sad panda.

[Forzah]

To clarify a bit the change to the TOD sets did screw stalwarts.

The +1 bonuses on ToD Rings were changed to competence, and the +2 bonus to insight.
The +2 change had no impact however the +1 change to the TOD rings screw Stalwarts because the Stalwart Defender stance gives a competence bonus to Strength and Constitution. So everyone who reworked their toons to get themselves even with the TOD set are now odd again.


There's lots of +8/+7 enhancement bonusses and +3 insight bonusses to even the stats out now though, so I don't see that much of a problem. It's only a minor change, nothing gamebreaking.

[Thrudh]

Omega (some utility, situational dps): SD Ftr, DoS Paly, Rngr, Rog, Brd

My SD evasion fighter can solo most epic hard quests. But then he has the Healing Dragonmarks for tough situations.

Get a few ranks in Unyielding Sentinal, and you'll be able to cast 4 mass heals yourself(that recharge). Even better than my dragonmarks. Get some of the new weapons, the new Purple Dragon Kinight gloves with +7, +2 exc CON, and 30% heal amp, and pretty soon you'll feel a lot better about your character.

[Thrudh]

To clarify a bit the change to the TOD sets did screw stalwarts.

The +1 bonuses on ToD Rings were changed to competence, and the +2 bonus to insight.
The +2 change had no impact however the +1 change to the TOD rings screw Stalwarts because the Stalwart Defender stance gives a competence bonus to Strength and Constitution. So everyone who reworked their toons to get themselves even with the TOD set are now odd again.

did not affect other classes as they use different bonuses like DOS uses Sacred kensai was untyped and became psionic (another change thad makes no sense).

FYI - they are fixing that next Wednesday in the patch.

[frayberg007]

There's lots of +8/+7 enhancement bonusses and +3 insight bonusses to even the stats out now though, so I don't see that much of a problem. It's only a minor change, nothing gamebreaking.

hey i agree, its just 24hp or +1/1. By no means is this a game breaker, the char will TR in a day or 2 anyways. I just wrote about it as anecdotal evidence of failed update. My FVS got jacked up alot worse and i had to rework alot of his gear (mostly crafted) and respec him. Again, that wasnt game breaking either and again neither is it the point of my post. Its just there to set up the stage for a much bigger issue... MMO turning into a fully soloable game. I guess we'll just have to see how this pens out.

[Thrudh]

hey i agree, its just 24hp or +1/1. By no means is this a game breaker, the char will TR in a day or 2 anyways. I just wrote about it as anecdotal evidence of failed update. My FVS got jacked up alot worse and i had to rework alot of his gear (mostly crafted) and respec him. Again, that wasnt game breaking either and again neither is it the point of my post. Its just there to set up the stage for a much bigger issue... MMO turning into a fully soloable game. I guess we'll just have to see how this pens out.

Again, they are fixing this next Wednesday.

Also, you can't really agree it's not a big deal, but then claim it as proof of a "failed' update.

[frayberg007]

I like the idea of scaling in quests so that you don't need a full group to tackle content. I don't think the scaling in raids is appropriate, at least not scaling down all the way to solo.

Personally I think there should be no scaling in Raids. Or at the very least cap the scaling to say 6 people(although only for easier difficulties, EE Raids should never scale).

Quests in general were never that hard to solo...but short manning/solo even normal raids was an accomplishment...and from what I hear thats no longer so. Very sad panda.

Yes but we already have Casual, Normal and Hard modes. If you are solo and not alpha or beta you can always casual...alpha or beta can prolly solo most elites anyways, i guess that's balanced? :) Why put in an easy to abuse mechanic like scaling. And why keep it in when it clearly doesn't work very well (quests easier to complete solo or duo than with a full group due to inept scaling)?

[Chai]

Now last i checked this was an MMO, a social game. With this last update, i feel that social structure of this game has been severely damaged. I always felt the risk/reward ratio was in a pretty bad shape in this game, but due to great artwork and fun content you could ignore the poor performance of the ballancing department. I think this time the guys there really messed things up and if its not adressed quickly what could have been the best update ever can turn into the biggest disaster ever.

The "social aspect" isnt something Turbine can code to fix. If the social aspect of the game is messed up, its the players fault, and not the company's.

The risk reward structure is messed up, but not in the same way players gripe about it. When the raid is released, and people have beaten it handedly within 3 hours of release and looted some of the better weapons in the game, thats messed up. Alot of the loot is easy to get. The chest with the best rings in the game is a 90 second run away with no fights until you get into the room. 7 STR 2 iCON gloves with 30% heal amp are 5 accomodations for all. Loot is pretty much being handed to people on a silver platter. People still try and post that this is a grind game however, and tell us horror stories about how they didnt get what they wanted in 80 runs of the same raid.

[Vormaerin]

Pretty much any MMO that does not have substantial solo-able content is going to struggle.

Most players are not interested in grouping with strangers every time they want to play. Forced grouping just limits the player base, not strengthen the game.

There is plenty of content in this game that the vast majority of players cannot do solo. There's probably content that no one can solo (not just because of "must be in two places at once" issues), but perhaps not. THere are some exceptionally good solo players around here.

Even when players do play in groups consistently, the typical size is usually 2 or 3. Both of Turbine's MMOs started with the idea of six man content being the norm (though Lotro had solo world content). They have had to change that substantially in both games to avoid hemorrhaging players.

[Truga]

Pretty much any MMO that does not have substantial solo-able content is going to struggle.

Most players are not interested in grouping with strangers every time they want to play. Forced grouping just limits the player base, not strengthen the game.

There is plenty of content in this game that the vast majority of players cannot do solo. There's probably content that no one can solo (not just because of "must be in two places at once" issues), but perhaps not. THere are some exceptionally good solo players around here.

Even when players do play in groups consistently, the typical size is usually 2 or 3. Both of Turbine's MMOs started with the idea of six man content being the norm (though Lotro had solo world content). They have had to change that substantially in both games to avoid hemorrhaging players.

I don't want a game that has sixty million single players. I want a co-op game. Single player games do single player much better than MMOs.

On an semi-related note, the most popular MMOs of all time all required grouping for most of the content.

[frayberg007]

Pretty much any MMO that does not have substantial solo-able content is going to struggle.

Most players are not interested in grouping with strangers every time they want to play. Forced grouping just limits the player base, not strengthen the game.

There is plenty of content in this game that the vast majority of players cannot do solo. There's probably content that no one can solo (not just because of "must be in two places at once" issues), but perhaps not. THere are some exceptionally good solo players around here.

Even when players do play in groups consistently, the typical size is usually 2 or 3. Both of Turbine's MMOs started with the idea of six man content being the norm (though Lotro had solo world content). They have had to change that substantially in both games to avoid hemorrhaging players.

To be honest i think you're correct. I think Turbine dev's made a decision that a solo game with a co-op option is the direction they want to take the game. I feel kinda dumb for trying to even argue my point than. I guess we'll see how things go as we progress in that direction. I cant say i agree with that, if i wanted a single player game id go play Skyrim or Assasin's Creed instead. Just have to wait and see i guess.

[Vormaerin]

I don't want a game that has sixty million single players. I want a co-op game. Single player games do single player much better than MMOs.

On an semi-related note, the most popular MMOs of all time all required grouping for most of the content.

And they've been steadily reducing the sizes of the groups required as time goes on.

It doesn't really matter what you want other people to do. The majority of available consumers wants a game they can play by themselves when they feel like or join up with others when they are so inclined. And a lot want to be able to play with a couple friends or with their spouse or child. Playing an MMO mostly or entirely solo is not at all like playing a single player game. Its still a social experience.

Forced group games don't get any of those players. Your choice isn't 60 milllion single players vs 60 million group oriented players. If the game requires groups, it will be much smaller than otherwise.

You think Turbine completely rewrote the structure of DDO and LotRO to allow smaller groups and solo play because it decreased the player base?

[Terebinthia]

I get so sick of people whining about scaling. Some players don't have the luxury of grouping. Much of my playtime is taken when I may have to AFK at any instant, the rest is spent playing with friends I have made here, mostly in 2 man groups. In addition I play off peak when fewer LFMs are available.

Making content doable only by groups of 4-6 won't make me magically capable of grouping. Leave my playstyle alone, thank you very much. If you want to group, you group.

Besides, solo players are a good source of income for Turbine, I imagine. I know I have no problem coughing up for a cake if I need to now and again, and the henchie has wussed out on me.

[TheStog]

Yes but we already have Casual, Normal and Hard modes. If you are solo and not alpha or beta you can always casual...alpha or beta can prolly solo most elites anyways, i guess that's balanced? :) Why put in an easy to abuse mechanic like scaling. And why keep it in when it clearly doesn't work very well (quests easier to complete solo or duo than with a full group due to inept scaling)?

I guess the easy answer is because most reactions are overreactions. From what I gather DDO went from no scaling and a friends don't let friends solo movement, to over scaling and a reversal. I never played during the time of the former, but I don't imagine it was fun playing if you played during hours when there was a low server population.

The problem is that no matter what they do, there will always be an optimal way to do it. Whether its solo, in a group, with just a tank healer and cc, or whatever the current update/quest/blahblah calls for. What maybe should be done as far as difficulty (and I still think there should be loot scaling in some form as well to incentivize higher difficulty) is to cap the scaling based on difficulty.

Example: Casual can scale between 1-6 people. Normal scales between 2-6 people. Hard: 3-6. Elite 4-6, 5-6 or even no scaling.

This would provide a progression for the solo player, while still allowing for pugs to have more options. With 3 people Normal and hard should still be doable, while Elite will be much harder unless they fill out the group. You could even scale the scale depending on difficulty. (example hard starts out harder but doesn't add a full +1 person for scaling per person).

With that said, I personally don't see non-raid quests as that big of a deal...all levels are pretty easy to solo right now with the exception of a few quests and EE.

OTOH. Raids should have little to no scaling at all. ITS A RAID. It doesn't have to be insanely hard at EN but it should not be able to be solod/duo'd by most classes/builds. I remember it being pretty amazing when i heard someone solo'd VOD. From what I read now, Echrono easily soloable by a lot of classes.

[Postumus]

Next year when a new expansion comes, the shinies from the current expansion will be nerfed too.

How do you nerf cormyr items? I mean, is there really any way to make them less appealing than they are now?

[Superspeed_Hi5]

Im just mad that FoM is almost a complete waste of a spell slot now. My FoM boots are going to collect dust and my boots will have to be replaced.

[Vormaerin]

What maybe should be done as far as difficulty (and I still think there should be loot scaling in some form as well to incentivize higher difficulty) is to cap the scaling based on difficulty.

Example: Casual can scale between 1-6 people. Normal scales between 2-6 people. Hard: 3-6. Elite 4-6, 5-6 or even no scaling.

You could even scale the scale depending on difficulty. (example hard starts out harder but doesn't add a full +1 person for scaling per person).

OTOH. Raids should have little to no scaling at all. ITS A RAID. It doesn't have to be insanely hard at EN but it should not be able to be solod/duo'd by most classes/builds. I remember it being pretty amazing when i heard someone solo'd VOD. From what I read now, Echrono easily soloable by a lot of classes.


It used to be that normal scaled a lot, hard scaled a little, and elite barely scaled at all. AFAIK, raids are not scaling. They are being soloed because people can outlevel them and they were designed in earlier gear eras. Or, like eChrono, the current difficulty is whacked.

I'm not sure how much elite scales at the moment. Some quests, like weapons shipment, scale a lot. More than intended, if MadFloyd's recent posts are any indication. Not sure how much difference there is in other quests.

A lot of times quests are easier to solo not because there is scaling involved, but just because its easier to control the flow of play. Its much harder to use certain game elements (like stealth, charms, etc) in groups.

[Vormaerin]

Im just mad that FoM is almost a complete waste of a spell slot now.

That seems an exaggeration to me. It stops a lot of stuff. Not earthgrab or beartraps, but that's hardly spell destroying.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Ah, just another high-end content only discussion.

There's so many of them lately.

And no-one discusses low-end content.

Why should one ? People in the forums are solely interested in discussing end-game.
Newbies ? Who needs to care about them ? Only we, the Majority Force of High-End-Game Players, matter at all !

[Truga]

And they've been steadily reducing the sizes of the groups required as time goes on.Which one? The ones I played never did that. But never mind that, if WoW did it, it must be right. Right?

It doesn't really matter what you want other people to do. The majority of available consumers wants a game they can play by themselves when they feel like or join up with others when they are so inclined. And a lot want to be able to play with a couple friends or with their spouse or child.There's literally a ton of games like that around already...

Playing an MMO mostly or entirely solo is not at all like playing a single player game. Its still a social experience.How is soloing everything different from playing NWN alone, and then connecting to your friends server when you want to?

Forced group games don't get any of those players. Your choice isn't 60 milllion single players vs 60 million group oriented players. If the game requires groups, it will be much smaller than otherwise.And I wouldn't mind that at all. I'm here to play with people who want to play with people, not to play with people who join my raid, then proceed to not listen to voice chat, nor read party chat and do their own thing and die in a fire while luring all the beholders into the center of HoX because they want a heal now. For example.

Oh and, one of the games I played had 60 million subscribers at it's peak. Apart from the easiest leveling areas, grouping was required because otherwise you'd get your ass handed to you. People that keep screaming about the lack of "group oriented players" are clueless at best.

You think Turbine completely rewrote the structure of DDO and LotRO to allow smaller groups and solo play because it decreased the player base?When did they completely rewrite the structure of DDO? All they did was add in scaling a couple years ago, which basically scaled mob HP and damage and nothing else in 99% of the content... But it probably didn't do too much to increase the player base anyway. Games that cater to solo players are nowadays so common it's not even funny.

What turbine did right (IMO) was the current epic hard scaling. The difficulty when solo is still roughly the same difficulty when you have 4 people in.

[Kakashi67]

How is soloing everything different from playing NWN alone, and then connecting to your friends server when you want to?



How many times have you won DDO?

[Truga]

How many times have you won DDO?

About the same amount of times I've won NWN.

Ed: Actually, win DDO almost every day, because I can repeat just the cataclysmic event quests (shroud, DD, ToD, etc), whereas with NWN you need to restart the game once you're done...

[Kakashi67]

About the same amount of times I've won NWN.

So zero then?

[frayberg007]

Ah, just another high-end content only discussion.

There's so many of them lately.

And no-one discusses low-end content.

Why should one ? People in the forums are solely interested in discussing end-game.
Newbies ? Who needs to care about them ? Only we, the Majority Force of High-End-Game Players, matter at all !

No offense but the content is currently underground level or EE. Rewards for both options are the same, hence if you're uber enough you do EE once for the bravery bonus than grind e/h or e/n and if you're not that uber you just stick to the later. In the end there is virtually no difference.

On top of that "high-end" content only means inflated HP/resists and caster dmg. There isn't much of a difference in the overall game mechanic with maybe a +1 to loot-gen in your chests which doesn't seem to add up to very much.

[Truga]

So zero then?

Read the edit. :P

[jbleargh]

Alpha (Super high clearing speed and strong utility): Wizard, Monk, FVS, Cleric, Druid (some of you might laugh at druid being here, but there is a few caster built druids that do very well...not a newb friendly class though)
Beta (Super high DPS): Barbs (with adrenaline), Sorcs
Omega (some utility, situational dps): SD Ftr, DoS Paly, Rngr, Rog, Brd



Hi,

I've being playing for 1,5 years and played lvl20s "alphas" (wizard, fvs and cleric) and I am levelling a Monk.

The "social division" has always being like that. (I would include Barbs with silver flame pots, WF sorcs and exceptionally well built and geared rangers in alpha, too). "Tanks" were used in very few quests/raids.

Alpha/easy to solo type maybe useful for farming stuff, but not necessary more fun.

Run, Run, run, dungeon alert, BB/Wail/Circle of Death/Web/Dancing Ball/Ice Storm/etc, kite, kite, kite, run, run, run... is efficient, but gets boring.

Even knowing about the nerf, I TRed a Barb into a SD (only lvl 5 now). Two reasons: I've never played a Fighter seriously and never done any character with decent AC.

For me the fun is not being the most powerful. I like to see what different classes and races can do.

As you said, this is a social game... and I expect that my SD will be able to contribute in any group he joins... If there is no place for him in our "society"... well... at least I had fun trying.

BTW, AFAIK contribute is not necessary trying to lead the kill counts... SD are supposed to soak damage and be easy to heal, isn't it?

I like them in a group when I am healing. The Terror nerf (which I think is fair) shouldn't be that bad for you.

Cogito ergo doleo

[Vormaerin]

Which one? The ones I played never did that. But never mind that, if WoW did it, it must be right. Right?

You brought up 'most successful MMO' not me.



There's literally a ton of games like that around already...
How is soloing everything different from playing NWN alone, and then connecting to your friends server when you want to?

NWN requires someone to have actually built the content. I don't know of any NWN server that has anywhere near the content, much less the quality content, of DDO or LotRO. It also doesn't have the same quality control. If you allow local characters in NWN, god knows what kind of hacks and gear craziness you'll see. Don't have to worry about that in DDO.



Oh and, one of the games I played had 60 million subscribers at it's peak. Apart from the easiest leveling areas, grouping was required because otherwise you'd get your ass handed to you. People that keep screaming about the lack of "group oriented players" are clueless at best.

Source?



When did they completely rewrite the structure of DDO? All they did was add in scaling a couple years ago, which basically scaled mob HP and damage and nothing else in 99% of the content... But it probably didn't do too much to increase the player base anyway. Games that cater to solo players are nowadays so common it's not even funny.

What turbine did right (IMO) was the current epic hard scaling. The difficulty when solo is still roughly the same difficulty when you have 4 people in.

They completely abandoned the idea of "no soloing," which was a core bit of the initial advertising. They added dungeon scaling. They added explorer zones. They added hirelings. They added challenges. None of those things are about group play and none of them were part of the original vision of the game.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

No offense but the content is currently underground level or EE. Rewards for both options are the same, hence if you're uber enough you do EE once for the bravery bonus than grind e/h or e/n and if you're not that uber you just stick to the later. In the end there is virtually no difference.

On top of that "high-end" content only means inflated HP/resists and caster dmg. There isn't much of a difference in the overall game mechanic with maybe a +1 to loot-gen in your chests which doesn't seem to add up to very much.

If lower-level content was affected in any way, no-one would notice, because no-one of those discussing high-level content plays low-level content.

Discussions like this are started ONLY because people become worried about what's happening to their characters/toons in upper levels. No-one is starting threads like this one (for example) because of people worrying about what's happening with their toons/characters at lower levels. And most certainly not about low-level gear. Which is usually referred to as simply "trash" by the majority of those discussing here.

[frayberg007]

It also doesn't have the same quality control.

man this is sig worthy ;)

[frayberg007]

If lower-level content was affected in any way, no-one would notice, because no-one of those discussing high-level content plays low-level content.

Discussions like this are started ONLY because people become worried about what's happening to their characters/toons in upper levels. No-one is starting threads like this one (for example) because of people worrying about what's happening with their toons/characters at lower levels. And most certainly not about low-level gear. Which is usually referred to as simply "trash" by the majority of those discussing here.

There is actually some posts about "low level" content. Traps hitting for 200 at level 2. Trap boxes DC so high first lifer has absolutly no chance to find it. Casters hitting for rediculous amounts on elite (i think the Final Djinn boss in Running with Devil's killed a paladin with like 600 light dmg nuke and than was able to outheal my entire group till i dropped a Globe on him (finally got some use out of my Sentinel Dragonmarks). There is a bunch of other "broken" stuff...WW acid tunnel...The Pit traps i mean there is plenty of things this update broke at all levels i just dont feel they are as game breaking as changing DDO into a single player game though.

[Thrudh]

i just dont feel they are as game breaking as changing DDO into a single player game though.

I see more LFMs on Thelanis than I ever have.

[eris2323]

The problem Op is that opinions are like bottoms. Everyones got one and they all stink.

Fact is no matter what someone says on these forums someone else will always come along and counter that argument.

I want X nerfed, you don't.

You want Y changed I don't.

We both know Z needs changing but fred argues against just for giggles.

You come up with a good idea and some forums "leet" comes along and shouts you down with his cronies so you shut up........

Its endless. All I would say, after 5 years Ive noticed.....

1. If it benefits players it will be nerfed quickly.

2. If it hinders players or their play time if will be fixed whenever the devs can be bothered, usually a long time later.

3. No matter how uber, or weak, you feel a certain thing is, and that it needs changing, someone else will always try to counter your point even if its obviously correct.

4. People on these forums like NOTHING better then runining other peoples fun/ game. All the time we hear, nerf this or change that because I dont have one, it has absolutly zero effect on me but I'm going to cry about it because I can and I wont stop till the devs mistake me for the vocal majority.

5. Trubine is like a lounge lizard pretty boy. They only care how things look to a new comer. If you stay a while and pick around you will find what a state the game is in but they don't care.

either A. you will stay waiting for it to get better or B you leave. Turbine hasn't grasped that by leaving you take business with you and effect fututre business. As an internet based company, like many of them these days, they don't have to worry about the individual customer.

Just fob them off, plenty more where they came from.

This is too true.

It hurts.

DDO should shut down their forums, at the very least remove their elitist in-crowd reputation system.

I'd much rather see the devs posting daily on a blog, with moderated comments, instead of seeing new messages every day about how some oldtimer who has played 21352345 to the power of 241652462542245245425425245425425245425 hours saying the game is too easy, and needs a nerf.

Or 2352512461461461464 newbies every week, saying zomg bravery bonus has totally removed my game, remove it.

[grayham]

I see more LFMs on Thelanis than I ever have.

Hear hear! I've misclicked by accident into the wrong group twice already, having never done before. That's an indication of how many groups there are and how often the social panel is changing.

Oh and re: solo play. I do about half/half. If I'm looking after my son it's not fair to inflict his erratic sleeping onto a pug. But does that mean I should go and play Skyrim? I now have the option of soloing Epic quests, when before U14 I didn't.

[Truga]

man this is sig worthy ;)
Agreed.

Source?
I have played Ragnarok Online for close to 5 years full time. It was easily the most fun fantasy MMORPG I've ever played. Diablo style skill trees and a stat system very similar to D&D's (but much less broken, dex was needed to hit and for cast speed, so you didn't have 2 stat wonders). I don't have the link now, but I've seen numbers peaked at 60 million players worldwide some 4+ years ago. Too bad they then decided that they want to go the way of more grind (something similar to TR, but dumber) rather than more fun, and started copying less fun games (like, say, WoW). I hope DDO doesn't start doing those kinds of things, because it'd be a real shame.

Also while you said "most successful", WoW isn't even that. It's peaked at a meagre what, 15 millions or so players? There's several MMOs that topped that...

[Xynot2]

2.) Remove N and H mode from epic. Lower the difficulty on elite slightly and maybe add a new mode for level 25s with full destiny unlock (add appropriate rewards for the new difficulty so its worth running)


I'll first speak to this.

Turbine needs to make money. By adding the N/H/E to epics, more people get into the epic levels and get them to buy adpacks. Futher along the money making, Turbine has ingeniously instituted 3x the adventuring for 1/3 the cost.

Conclusion? Forget about this idea. Never gonna happen.

And Second:

You forgot about Turtle tanks who's sole purpose it is to get agro so the DPS can whop the baddies without the fear of getting hit.

[Truga]

I see more LFMs on Thelanis than I ever have.

Same on Argo. But these people keep telling me people want more soloing in this game. Something must be wrong with my logic, I guess.

[Ungood]

it is tough to pick through the pieces of this debacle and find out what will be fixed and what they actually meant to do.

This is pretty much where I am at now. I look at the game, and I think: Is there anything I want gear wise? And I end up with pretty much nothing, not because I have all the gear I could want, but because I have no idea what is really worth going after anymore.

Then I ponder that Bravery is Broken (Not advancing) and the scaling in Elite quests is currenlty borked, so, I get very little reward for what makes for a lot of extra work. So I am not motivated to run quests currently in their broken state.

So after sitting there for a little bit and wondering what I would do if I logged in, I come up with nothing and don't log in.

[frayberg007]

I'll first speak to this.

Turbine needs to make money. By adding the N/H/E to epics, more people get into the epic levels and get them to buy adpacks. Futher along the money making, Turbine has ingeniously instituted 3x the adventuring for 1/3 the cost.

Conclusion? Forget about this idea. Never gonna happen.

And Second:

You forgot about Turtle tanks who's sole purpose it is to get agro so the DPS can whop the baddies without the fear of getting hit.

I predict burn out from boredom of solo epic grinding (still grindy as hell but now solo =p) and probably decreased numbers which will be blamed on competition (i will still maintain that the changes is what caused it).

My ftr has 41str (down from 42 pre-update). He has a full set of GS weapons (lit2 falch, trip pos maul), Undead beat stick from house C and the flame axe from house C. I hit on average for about 60dmg with the 2h axe roughly. The shield only comes out when im tanking LoB or something. Honestly as the game is currently built shields dont have much use on a regular basis very situational. On the other hand the difference between hitting for 60 with the 2h or for 40 with my EChimera isnt that big shrug.

Overall, the toon is hardly a turtle but that is not the point of the OP =D.

[bigolbear]

in responce to the op.

RE: classes and groups.

Your definition of alpha beta and gamma groups is how it uesd to be, this no longer holds true due to the combat changes (to which of course we are still adapting).

hp of mobs is a lot lower now than it used to be - especialy in epics - and i mean epic elite compared to the old epics.
conversely SR and saves are a lot higher effectively nerfing the alpha group(all instakillers)

Due to the changes re AC and PRR im seeing a heckof a lot of defender type meles that are quite capable of soloing content, the potential for self healing via ED's is a major contribution to this.

rogues and bards were always in the top tier of power - but both are quite hard to play at this standard.

I do agree that rangers could use some help, most of their real advantages are easily negated by potions, ship buffs and easy to get gear - there still a great versatile class for newer players tho.

In short I feel that your opinion here is short sighted, although there were classes that underperformed that gap has been narrowed a great deal.


RE epic dificulty settings.

Im sory but the purpose for having epic selectable as norm/hard/elite is to allow all players no matter their lvl of skill (and grinding dedication) access to the content. This is a good thing, infact it is essential. EPIC is now just lvl 21+, its not the mode for the best of the best - thats epic elite.


RE scaling

Scaling based on party sise/composition is a good idea. There are some 'buggs' with it tho and id advocate they are fixed.

Notably: spell damage and in some cases mele damage goes way up/down with scaling - its too extreme, saves go up a lot when you go to 5 or 6 party memebers, self healing enemeis are a pain in the butt when your solo/duo.


In conclusion i disagree strongly with your suggestions, i feel they would be going backwards - however i acnowledge that there is an issue in regards scaling on various dificulty settings and this should be addressed. Rather than simple remove it tho it should be addressed in a comprehansive mannor to make it work as it was intended, ie the dificulty of the dungeon remains the same irrelevant of party composition.

[Expalphalog]

Also while you said "most successful", WoW isn't even that. It's peaked at a meagre what, 15 millions or so players? There's several MMOs that topped that...

Tell that to the Guiness Book of World Records. (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/6000/most-popular-subscription-based-massively-multiplayer-online-role-player-game-(mmorpg))

[AestorTheKnight]

Interesting.

Snip*

...Basically the character is performing at a lower level than before, and it is tough to pick through the pieces of this debacle and find out what will be fixed and what they actually meant to do.

This! +1 Mech :)

[Ew_vastano]

only thing i think is epic hard needs beefing up in difficulty wise when my monk can go out scroll farming on epic hard only using cure serios pots you know somethings wrong

[JamnJD]

Winds of change.

Really.

Some good, soome buggy. However, I reason that Turbine has a reason for many of their choices, most to do that this is a social game, so many of the things that got nerfed are due to what they think is overpowered thus solo'able. Now, Terror was overpowered, they say. Ok. Can't judge on that. Minos Legen got nerfed...rather the Fort got nerfed...sorta. FvS took a hit. Enough that I brushed off my level 12 to see. Yuppers, they are nerfed. As one of premier solo classes, I saw that one coming. Unfortunally, it hit the clerics too, though not as hard. Meh. In my opinion, clerics are overpowered. Oh well, 4 years of being a powerhouse. Waiting on the arti's to get hit with the hammer, for mine (so far, he's only level 10) is a solo machine.

I remember the tears when Tempest Ranger got smacked.

Turbine is trying the balance the game. Some of the changes will revert (some partially, some not) and some will stay. I have been here long enough not to go "OH MY GOD!" at every nerf, rather to see what the next couple of updates and/or patches bring before I start my screaming match.

What happens in the meantime? I change how I play my character. My FvS used the free LTR went sword and board, now that armour has meaning, vice TWF. Upped his WIS for more powerful heals. So he's more healer/melee specced. He's currently grabbing some house Cannith challenge gear.

THen again, I don't play the flavour of the month, nor to I activaly seek out the newest uber gearage. So alot of nerfs tend to be trivial to me.

For me, it's a mindset thing. I make my clerics flexible (aka generalists) so nerfs don't effect them that much. Nor am I bothered by healing more than usual. I spent the first two years of this game doing nothing but being pigeonholed into healing only (until more offensive spells were added, thank you BB!) It doesn't bother me to do it.

All I can say is, try looking at your character in a different way. Putting labels on classes doesn't help; just makes the blinders more real. It may require a rebuild, or just a change of gear. IT may mean putting the shield up or even carrying one in the first place.

Also, with Eveningstar and Faerun, it's a whole new ballgame. Things are different. PErhaps you should look at it in a different light.


As usual, your wisdom score in this forum is unmatched. I 100% love this post :)

...J

[inggold]

They completely abandoned the idea of "no soloing," which was a core bit of the initial advertising. They added dungeon scaling. They added explorer zones. They added hirelings. They added challenges. None of those things are about group play and none of them were part of the original vision of the game.

You mean that original vision of the game that came awfully close to grinding this MMO to its death, right?

Good riddance.

All I can think when I read about folks wanting forced interdependance for everything is that old Everquest "Brad's Vision" thing... it died, too, and for good reason. People don't want it, and when they found options that allow them not to have it, they left to go to those options.

Not that I don't empathize with folks looking for that forced interaction; wish you could have your cake and eat it too. I simply know that it kills games for the broader userbase, and I'd like this one to stick around (because frankly it *doesn't* impose that forced interdependancy on me for 99% of the game!).

[Orratti]

When did they change scaling to affect only enemy hps and damage output?

From what I remember/noticed scaling affects

hitpoints
saves (maybe. not positive on this one)
ac
to hit
damage

If it has been changed to only affect hit points and damage output that at least is a step in the right direction.

[Ausdoerrt]

Basically the character is performing at a lower level than before, and it is tough to pick through the pieces of this debacle and find out what will be fixed and what they actually meant to do.

Even worse for me since I took a 3+ month break from the game. I come back and now I have very little idea about how the stuff works, or what I should aim for on my toons, both old and new. Worst thing is, the only way to gain any understanding of recent game changes is to dig through 100+ page forum threads, and that really shouldn't be the case.

[luvirini]

only thing i think is epic hard needs beefing up in difficulty wise when my monk can go out scroll farming on epic hard only using cure serios pots you know somethings wrong

Given that monks (and mostly monks) could solo easier epics in the old days I do not see this as strange.

I mean my first life monk 18/rogue1/ranger1 with fairly crappy gear(on green steel or raid gear, some cove epic items and else standard loot items) soloed partycrashers and big top epics the slow way. (Sneak and pull individual enemies to side and then stun and kill)

Party crashers succeeded on first solo try and big top on third(Disintegrates for 500 points from Melicia hurt when you have only 370 hp)

Ofcourse I knew the quests really well having run them 4 times/day on my wizard for a while as token runs.

[Qezuzu]

Omega (some utility, situational dps): SD Ftr, DoS Paly, Rngr, Rog, Brd

Rogue? Really? That statement alone makes me think you don't even play this game.

Rogue
Not devastatingly high DPS

^Pick one.

[Xynot2]

Solution:

Make everything (including players) with basic armor and weapons, give everything exactly 1k HP and make all attacks do only 1 hp dmg.

/sarcasm off

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Even worse for me since I took a 3+ month break from the game. I come back and now I have very little idea about how the stuff works, or what I should aim for on my toons, both old and new. Worst thing is, the only way to gain any understanding of recent game changes is to dig through 100+ page forum threads, and that really shouldn't be the case.

When DDO was new, no-one had an idea either, I guess. And I don't know if the amount of forum topics was the same as it is today.

[frayberg007]

Rogue? Really? That statement alone makes me think you don't even play this game.

Rogue
Not devastatingly high DPS

^Pick one.

sure rogue dps is pretty nice, though most of it has some dependancies (like you know, not being the main target). Hence a rogue though capable of doing high dps only does it under certain conditions...hence situational (unlike any alpha or beta groups for extreme example take sorc - no dependency, no range limitation). Only thing i can think of that a rogue going for him other than the rest of the gimps is ability to scroll heal. However the class mechanic prevents it from being a high dps on its own merit. And under best conditions rogue will not match the dps of a sorceror nor the trash clearing power of a wizard provided player skill levels and gear is equal.

@ Ausdoerrt

the caster change is an overall 8% nerf according to some math guys. Read this on the forums, so take it with a grain of salt. To fix your character you now need probably 2 maybe 3 items depending on what you're going for. ill give you my FVS as an example.

As a caster you now need (1) a focus item -- my FVS now has a greater necromancy bracers (crafted), Potency shield of power X (offhand), devotion sword of healing lore (main hand) for full functionality he's still missing an evocation focus and a radiance item of XXX lore (what ever the allignment dmg spells are based on). BB is only boosted by currently potency and http://ddowiki.com/page/Laceration which is only found on LoB crafted adamtite gear (with mystical effect).

So basically unless you plan to grind LoB for a while BB has taken a permanent hit due to the new spell powers stack.

your old 75% clickies are now changed to +15 alchemical spell power for 3mins. If you want to optimize dps you now need 2. Potency clicky and a school specific clicky (in the case of my FVS it would be radiance or devotion).

So to sum things up. You now need (want to have) a school focus item (+2dc) and Dmg type of dmg lore item, and finally a potency item which will work on all of your spells not just the 1 type of dmg.

If you plan to do 2 types of dmg (lets say fire and acid) you will want evocation focus, combustion item of fire lore and erosion item of acid lore AND a potency item (works on both types and stacks).

This gets even more convoluted if you're using cross school spells. Lets say FVS would have Necromancy, Evocation, Abjuration and Conjuration. To be effective at the same level as before you now would need 4 focus items (some banishing spells use abjuration, heals/cures if used offensively use conjuration for dc check). And you would need school type of school lore per each school that you want to actually do dmg with. In fvs case healing and radiance (for DP) are most important so at least 2 items slotted for each school. And finally a potency item for universal spell power. Hope this helps.

[Ryiah]

sure rogue dps is pretty nice, though most of it has some dependancies (like you know, not being the main target). Hence a rogue though capable of doing high dps only does it under certain conditions...hence situational (unlike any alpha or beta groups for extreme example take sorc - no dependency, no range limitation).

I don't see how you can lump Rogues with Bards. At least put them into the more middle tier. There are ways to proc sneak attacks and bypass enemy Fortification from both feats and items (assuming bug free here of course).

[frayberg007]

I don't see how you can lump Rogues with Bards. At least put them into the more middle tier. There are ways to proc sneak attacks and bypass enemy Fortification from both feats and items (assuming bug free here of course).

Yeah, but even a melee based bard can use song to CC and beat most stuff down 1 at a time. A savvy bard might even be able to otto's irresistable the orange nameds provided they have the spell pen for it (may need a wiz TR). I guess where bard will most likely run into trouble is on a boss fight while rogue will probably never make it there. And have you looked at the fatesinger's abilities? Bards got some serios love this update...but they are still a buffer class with situational dps =), their clear time will be slow and they will have issues with end fights...possibly kiting the boss for long periods of time till their 1k nuke ability resets i think 40secs. Nothing will change the fact though that bards cant insta kill so they must chew through thousands of hp on dozens or hundreds of NPCs which just takes alot of time. Lack of AoE (such as BB) or insta kill (such as FoD, Consume, Wail or EiN etc.) will always keep it in the Omega grp although they can situationally shine depending on quest objectives.

Btw dont take it as a bad thing certain classes are just gimps by design. There may be a vision Turbine has for them where they come into their own at like level 40 or something. Or maybe they are just poorly balanced who knows =d. If i was a dev though id definetly try to ballance classes, clearly with the inflated hps of what used to be end game you either need supreme dps (barbs and sorc's got this done pretty well) or insta kill ability (read sorc's + alpha group). Sorc insta kill falls off on EE (except prismatic ray/spray) but who runs EE anyways.

[Thrudh]

If you plan to do 2 types of dmg (lets say fire and acid) you will want evocation focus, combustion item of fire lore and erosion item of acid lore AND a potency item (works on both types and stacks).

This is incorrect. Potency does not stack with Combustion or erosion, etc.

[frayberg007]

This is incorrect. Potency does not stack with Combustion or erosion, etc.

the clicky effects seem to stack, i could be wrong though. The actual sp bonuses are listed as universal for potency and typed for specific.

[frayberg007]

This is incorrect. Potency does not stack with Combustion or erosion, etc.

https://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383856

did a google search and i guess i was wrong on that one. Potency and Combustion dont stack. So you can do pretty well with a potency item of spell type lore though if you want to optimize the dps actual school items seem to have a bit of xtra sp power than the universal potency offers.

[Thrudh]

the rest of the gimps

YOUR Stalwart Defender may be a gimp. Mine is not.

[frayberg007]

YOUR Stalwart Defender may be a gimp. Mine is not.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090208164953AASN1UE :)

[deahamlet]

I think the SWAT team will come murder your fighter in its sleep for the crazy things you say. They have achievements of soloing the old epics even, let alone the new difficulties.
My sorcerer is a lot more successful minimally geared solo than my fvs who I had to lr due to evoker being subpar without pls if you want to solo the new epics. I would say wf sorc are even above wizards due to sheer amount of dmg that doesn't have dw or immunities or high sr issues. Cleric and fvs have been lowered a tad in caster department if without high sr (wizards have elf as an option and more feats to adjust).
I have paladin friends who have not complained at all about soloing... they have no problems.
My favourite soloist is an AA crazyman who has done as in every class and was known to solo epic Sands even on his ranger lives.

I think solo ability brings a lot to this game. I can solo, I can group, I like options! I dislike people trying to force an always need group model of ddo.
And you cannot be very successful at the social par if you don't have friends by now who would rather bring you to have fun than solo. I know my sorc is a solo machine now, but my paladin, wizard, barbarian, divine friends all got a resounding hell yes from me when they asked "hey, I need to flag Or farm gear, join me!".

Edit: also my wf artificer is far more flexible and adaptable due to survability, trap skills and cc on top of dps... All while away from danger either kiting or sniping. Definitely alpha and better than even my sorc for all those reasons. I would certainly not put them anywhere below wizards or divines as solo machines.

[Vormaerin]

Agreed.

Also while you said "most successful", WoW isn't even that. It's peaked at a meagre what, 15 millions or so players? There's several MMOs that topped that...

You said "subscribers" not players. There are free to play games, like RO, that have more accounts than WoW. You'll need to provide some evidence that they actually produce more revenue.

Its entirely possible to be more popular and less successful at the same time.


As for the "more soloing" comments, you act like they are an either/or situation. The point is that the majority of MMO players want both. They don't want to have one game to play when by themselves and another game to play when their friends are around. They don't want to be in a situation where their opportunity to play is limited by other people.

[frayberg007]

I think the SWAT team will come murder your fighter in its sleep for the crazy things you say. They have achievements of soloing the old epics even, let alone the new difficulties.
My sorcerer is a lot more successful minimally geared solo than my fvs who I had to lr due to evoker being subpar without pls if you want to solo the new epics. I would say wf sorc are even above wizards due to sheer amount of dmg that doesn't have dw or immunities or high sr issues. Cleric and fvs have been lowered a tad in caster department if without high sr (wizards have elf as an option and more feats to adjust).
I have paladin friends who have not complained at all about soloing... they have no problems.
My favourite soloist is an AA crazyman who has done as in every class and was known to solo epic Sands even on his ranger lives.

I think solo ability brings a lot to this game. I can solo, I can group, I like options! I dislike people trying to force an always need group model of ddo.
And you cannot be very successful at the social par if you don't have friends by now who would rather bring you to have fun than solo. I know my sorc is a solo machine now, but my paladin, wizard, barbarian, divine friends all got a resounding hell yes from me when they asked "hey, I need to flag Or farm gear, join me!".

Well friend, i am a multi TR and i solo most of the content 3-5 days though i do put up LFMs. Sadly in most cases i can just look at a characters hp and predict his/her level of play. Now i havent played the game very long so i am not a completionist or anything like that but the truth is id rather solo on e/n than wait for a grp more than 5-10mins...just more efficient that way. Having said that, my ability to solo on a ftr is no way a means to saying that a ftr and a sorc are somehow ballanced. They simply arent ;) and this is true virtually every regard with a few very rare and situational examples (tanking LoB maybe?). Thought im willing to bet my money you can build a sorc that can tank a lob fairly well.

[deahamlet]

Well friend, i am a multi TR and i solo most of the content 3-5 days though i do put up LFMs. Sadly in most cases i can just look at a characters hp and predict his/her level of play. Now i havent played the game very long so i am not a completionist or anything like that but the truth is id rather solo on e/n than wait for a grp more than 5-10mins...just more efficient that way. Having said that, my ability to solo on a ftr is no way a means to saying that a ftr and a sorc are somehow ballanced. They simply arent ;) and this is true virtually every regard with a few very rare and situational examples (tanking LoB maybe?). Thought im willing to bet my money you can build a sorc that can tank a lob fairly well.

I don't know, his elemental resistances were insane. Dots were a waste of sp on epic and a danger, but I haven't run the new epic lob. Any toon can tank velah on ehard, that was funny. Same with echrono. As a divine makes me happy, more time to play in pugs and less stress.

I'm making a twf dwarf that is starting fighter and then going through melee classes trying the destinies. I'll let you know if I feel like crying in my cornflakes after that. Only complaint I ever heard was from uber melees who want a player nannybot cause hirelings are beneath them. I told them to go shove it since they cried so hard for nerfs on my favourite toons.

[Qezuzu]

rogues and bards were always in the top tier of power - but both are quite hard to play at this standard.

Not really; my 16/2/2 Bard's DPS has skyrocketed thanks to Dreadnought.

And Enthrall/Song of Capering/Otto's Irresistible Dance are hilariously powerful as always.

[frayberg007]

Not really; my 16/2/2 Bard's DPS has skyrocketed thanks to Dreadnought.

And Enthrall/Song of Capering/Otto's Irresistible Dance are hilariously powerful as always.

Well currently almost any class can solo E/N. Ballance is down to a question who does it faster, some classes will do it 3-4 times faster. Not balanced to me, but in the end i dont care i just play what i want.

OP concern still stands though, there should be solo content in the game and there should be group content in the game. Especially an MMO. Currently the group content is very very very limited, and i think the game will suffer for it. But you know, just an opinion, we'll see how things work out over the next few mo.

[Thanquil]

Hello,

I do not post here often, because mostly i play and just take things as they come. However, this update has been so brutal i felt i had to do something.

I feel that the game is being destroyed right now. I feel that this update, despite bringing some of the best content this game has ever seen is a horrible disaster. And I feel i need to to share my point of view and maybe someone with some authority will notice.

First of all I am currently playing a Stalwart Defender fighter. My character has been hit pretty hard. My ToD rings are nerfed. My Chimera Crown with its 30 Spell Resist does nothing on any epic difficulty as casters command me at will even on E/N in the ITD i've been grinding (something i do every life before i TR). And you utterly destroyed my main source of dps, yes the Terror sword (currently using the axe from C challenges). Now all of this is relevant and important, but there is even a bigger issue...

The new break down of Epics into cas/n/h/e is the main problem that i think will hurt this game tremendously and let me explain. As is we have 3 types of characters right now. For ease ill break them down into 3 groups.

Alpha (Super high clearing speed and strong utility): Wizard, Monk, FVS, Cleric, Druid (some of you might laugh at druid being here, but there is a few caster built druids that do very well...not a newb friendly class though)
Beta (Super high DPS): Barbs (with adrenaline), Sorcs
Omega (some utility, situational dps): SD Ftr, DoS Paly, Rngr, Rog, Brd

Now the Alpha group can currently solo most epic hards, no problem. The beta's can easily solo e/n and possibly epic hards with some issues. Any combination of Alpha + Beta will easily duo pretty much any epic hard in the game. The problem is, the situational utility classes which where super useful in the old epic content now lost most of their appeal for the optimized group. Heck, the group itself now is pretty optimized at just 2 players from alpha or alpha + beta category (beta is great on boss fights). And the only time Omega group is actually needed is for EE content which pretty much nobody runs due to poor risk/reward ratio.

Now last i checked this was an MMO, a social game. With this last update, i feel that social structure of this game has been severely damaged. I always felt the risk/reward ratio was in a pretty bad shape in this game, but due to great artwork and fun content you could ignore the poor performance of the ballancing department. I think this time the guys there really messed things up and if its not adressed quickly what could have been the best update ever can turn into the biggest disaster ever.

xxx

Some possible solutions:

1.) Remove game scaling from epic levels. The Quest should be just as hard with 2 players as it is with 6. Scaling is clearly broken anyways, and when players prefer to run a quest with 2 over full group you know something is wrong.
2.) Remove N and H mode from epic. Lower the difficulty on elite slightly and maybe add a new mode for level 25s with full destiny unlock (add appropriate rewards for the new difficulty so its worth running)
3.) I know its probably too late to change the whole new loot gen system that was implemented but at least re-instate Terror and the Monk Wraps to former levels. Those items where pretty essential on lower str melee builds - WF FVS, Dos Paly, SD Ftr. Those items where never OP and they allowed a lower str utility class to be a contributor in a group.
4.) This one will take a while...Re-evaluate the feats your epic NPCs have access too. Currently the casters are very powerful, they have access to too many feats. Having my 30 spell Resist broken 100% on epic normal (cr23) is pretty bad. Having a level 16 Stormreaver disintegrate for 850 is REALLY bad. Limit the number of feats the NPC casters can take and heavily.

I think the suggestions above is a good start for the discussion. Again i urge you guys to take a good look at what you have done with this update. The game play is awesome. The ideas are awesome. The destinies are great (probably need more work though, i mean com'n you nerf Wail and give monks EiN?). But the game balancing, scaling, different level epics are working Bad with a capital B.

Anyways, its pretty late i might have made some spelling mistakes and what not, but i hope you get the point.

Ty for your time.

p.s. oh yeah...remove the nerf to house C exp. The challenges that where being abused are the new ones, C has been around forever and there wasnt any issues.

Your words are BEYOND wise. I hope everyone who reads this gives you positive rep. I also hope you do not give up on this game WE NEED players like you.

[zarthak]

i always get a laugh at these threads! this is what u guys look like.

you: OP OP NERF IT!!! DDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO000000000000000000 00000000ooooooooooooooomMMMMMM!!!!!


DEVS: k we "fixed" it in the next patch


you: YOU NERFED IT TO MUCH!!!!!! CHANGE IT BACKKKK!!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOO00000000000000000oooooooooooooommmm mmmmmmmmmmmmMMMMMMM!

[frayberg007]

I don't know, his elemental resistances were insane. Dots were a waste of sp on epic and a danger, but I haven't run the new epic lob. Any toon can tank velah on ehard, that was funny. Same with echrono. As a divine makes me happy, more time to play in pugs and less stress.

I'm making a twf dwarf that is starting fighter and then going through melee classes trying the destinies. I'll let you know if I feel like crying in my cornflakes after that. Only complaint I ever heard was from uber melees who want a player nannybot cause hirelings are beneath them. I told them to go shove it since they cried so hard for nerfs on my favourite toons.

The bulid would have be centered around a shield (blocks his mournlord strikes and stun), intimidate (you dont want him running around especially during whirlwind, and probably ice storm or meteor swarm ...something that will have at least a portion of the dmg get through. Or you could mutliclass heavily into a melee sorc/ftr with a imp shield bash feat + holy burst adamnatite shield that would prolly work really well with displacement (does lob have TS?). Slap a con - op + torc on such a toon and its an unstoppable dps machine, and if this sucker is a warforged it would have scroll free self healing on top. Caster platform has a rediculous amount of options by being so strong at its core =d,

You know i think the problem with these class balancing issues is alot of players identify with their class as opposed to with the role of the class. Original DnD concept was pretty basic...Tank(FTR), Heals (Clr), CC (wiz), Trap/Dps (rog). So if you classify your general classes by their role you can easily create meaningful content that hits all the 4 bases and creates a fun group environment which is the basis for co-op play.

I guess the big imballances come up when the same character can do 2 or more of the functions/roles. I am as guilty as anyone of abusing this, most of my builds are /2 rogue cause i am pretty sick key traps being blown up resulting in deaths and lowering my bottom line xp =d. But in theory you can create a "godlike" character that can perform all of the functions on his own. Caster platform for dps, toss in some ftr for martial feats and a 2 rogue and you have a self healing (with scrolls), tank, aoe dpser that can do traps =d. Now if this sucker is built on a WF platform, he can now self heal scroll free. Toss in con op + torc = limitless resource...and with the change displacement something like 50% (from armor) + 50% (from displacement) + 10% (or is it 20?%) from the stalker ring. Sounds pretty ridiculous hehe.

Anyways, i guess id prefer a more structured system, just the way my mind works. Too much power isnt always a good thing in a video game.

[Fomori]

You know i think the problem with these class balancing issues is alot of players identify with their class as opposed to with the role of the class. Original DnD concept was pretty basic...Tank(FTR), Heals (Clr), CC (wiz), Trap/Dps (rog). So if you classify your general classes by their role you can easily create meaningful content that hits all the 4 bases and creates a fun group environment which is the basis for co-op play.
Actually the most fun in original DnD was just playing whatever you wanted. There were no "roles" in the groups I played with. Usually we slogged around with a couple of casters, other days fighters only, and some days balanced parties. In all cases it was fun. We didnt need jobs for our characters to fulfill to make the gaming experience.


I guess the big imballances come up when the same character can do 2 or more of the functions/roles.
I dont see that as imbalance but a breakthrough. The function/role system is fine, but it thrives because of its simplistic nature. Any schlub can "play his role" and once people figure out a strategy it doesnt take geniuses to simply copy the strategy character for character, play by play. DDO parties are always varied so you may need to adjust on the fly, learn or fail!

[Qezuzu]

Btw dont take it as a bad thing certain classes are just gimps by design.

This is absolutely false. Some classes require more gear/skill, but none are inherently gimped.


sure rogue dps is pretty nice, though most of it has some dependancies (like you know, not being the main target). Hence a rogue though capable of doing high dps only does it under certain conditions...hence situational

This was a valid argument for trash mobs in... module 5? When RadII weapons were released, Rogues received a massive edge against trash mobs. You've heard of RadII, right? A RadII rapier (with improved critical) has a 30% chance to blind a mob, making them vulnerable to Sneak Attack for several seconds.

As for bosses, this was a valid argument in u11. After that, a bunch of epic weapons were given Improved Deception, which has the nice ability to render any mob, including bosses, vulnerable to sneak attacks. Dual wielding Improved Deception weapons can make bosses vulnerable for very long periods of time. This was only improved when this item (http://ddowiki.com/page/Golden_Guile) was released in u13. The Golden Guile gives Improved Deception to anything you wield, and will stack with weapons that already have it.

And, of course, there has always been Diplomacy and threat reduction effects, which allow Rogues to not steal aggro from party members for some time (many rogues have enough DPS to steal aggro with as low as 50% default threat, but this does not generally happen for a few seconds). And, in u9, Bluff was improved to last for 4 seconds, meaning that, without any deception items (even though Golden Guile is very easy to get), a Rogue can be sneak attacking a boss at least 25% of the time.

Combine dual Improved Deception weapons, Golden Guile, and Bluff, and a Rogue can sneak attack a boss that is aggroed on the Rogue for a very significant portion of the battle.

Add in Bluff Pulls, Assassinate, the highest stealth of any class (Noisemakers optional), high UMD, the Shadowdancer destiny (25% incorporeality, Consume [when it works], rendering Undead/Elementals/Constructs vulnerable to Sneak Attacks), the AC pass, and you have a class that is actually pretty good at soloing. Stealth play isn't the same as simple Hack 'n' Slash, and requires more skill, but it's still effective (and faster).


(unlike any alpha or beta groups for extreme example take sorc - no dependency, no range limitation). Only thing i can think of that a rogue going for him other than the rest of the gimps is ability to scroll heal. However the class mechanic prevents it from being a high dps on its own merit.Not being dead adds a lot of DPS. Don't underestimate self healing.


And under best conditions rogue will not match the dps of a sorceror nor the trash clearing power of a wizard provided player skill levels and gear is equal.The same goes for every single melee class. Comparing casters to melees is exceptionally tricky. At least Rogues have Assassinate.

Don't claim that classes are inherently gimp. It isn't true, and shows that you don't know as much as you think about the game.

[Raithe]

Original DnD concept was pretty basic...Tank(FTR), Heals (Clr), CC (wiz), Trap/Dps (rog)...

Your knowledge about the "original DnD concept" matches your knowledge about DDO game mechanics and class imbalance.

1) Fighters were more DPS than tanks in original D&D. There were no real tanks in D&D. Everyone could get instakilled, everyone could get held for too many rounds to be the one and only protection shield of a group. The only way groups survived well into a campaign is by keeping each other alive. The original D&D role system was there to mimic the different character types of fantasy fiction, and the Tank/Healer/DPS systems of gameplay hadn't even been invented at the time.

2) The stratification of the classes in DDO should be based more on self-healing and damage avoidance than raw DPS numbers over some arbitrary interval. DPS really only factors into the equation for a few rare encounter scenarios in the game were bosses are somehow healed, or if there is a time limit. Plus, there are very few things that can't be done on any particular class, if you have 5 hours to spare and virtually unlimited consumibles.

No, the key features that are dividing the classes currently (tho many features of the new game have dramatically reduced this gap) is the availability of DoTs and/or other cheap significant ranged damage, and the ability to self-heal rapidly. With multiple feats of Epic skills and highly prevalent healing amp options, any sorceror not capable of healing themself to near-full with one flick of a scroll isn't even trying.

That said, it isn't even important to tier the classes on a 1v1 basis. The problem actually resides in the 6v6, 5v5, and 4v4 systems. Put any group of mostly-casters against a group of mostly-melee and compare their performance in identical content. The group of mostly-casters will trump the other in a good 90% of content, and by a large margin. In the other 10% the outcome will be far less clear. Fully balanced parties will wander around somewhere in the middle of the two extremes, when they should have been the clear and uncontested winner.

The nice things about the destinies isn't that they make the game so much easier (I'm still waiting to see if there are problems with this), it's that they smooth over the large gap between group configurations. Everyone has some sort of single-target instakill, or close to it. Most have what amounts to an AoE wipe, too. I'm hoping that when everything is fixed and ready, the only thing that will significantly differentiate the capabilities of any particular character will be the player behind it.

[Llewndyn]

I know it certainly allowed my poorly equipped fighter to stand up with more decently equipped players and appear to be contributing. I never thought that I was cheating, but I do know my fighter should not have been in some of those places as poorly geared as she was. It very much was due for a nerf.

Now players actually need to be able to contribute without simply being gimps with a sword.


Quite easily succeeded from what I've seen. Thanks to challenges the old Epics had practically ceased being run and were largely getting ignored. The OP talks about Turbine killing off their game but completely fails to realize that removing lower difficulties would do just that. I'm all in favor of increasing challenge in Elite content, but I'm also in favor of allowing average/casual players having access to content. This is an MMO - it does not cater to one demographic.

I don't see an issue with making A few weapons that a first life character can use in order to be useful with veterans, now that stuff like Terror is nerfed, and Tharaak Wraps or whatever they're called (never seen em drop so don't really believe they exist) I thought of as a way newer players could experience tougher content without being useless pikers. Now for the most part, they are useless pikers. I have GS, alchemical weapons, most of the higher end rare loot in the game, so it didn't/ doesn't do a whole ton for me except make it so that now I have to PUG farm some stuff if I don't feel like wasting time DPSing things to the same conclusion only more slowly. A newer freshly stoned 18 or a newer player who worked up through the ranks now has one less tool that they can use to even be relevant alongside someone like me. I think that's the issue.

I'm genuinely not trying to start a flame war, and to be completely honest even though I have better weapons if terror was un-nerfed tomorrow I would take advantage of it, so I can from an objective point, understand why they nerfed it and am probably the reason for it, but I think the advantages it gave newer players and people who are a little underpowered otherwise outweighed jerks like me who use them to pretend we are poorly make PMs. And that's what terror/ wraps made you: a very poorly made Pale Master who STILL needed healing, who STILL needed supporting gear and a few feats to do the same thing (never knew if Bloodstone affected or still affects Terror, but it felt like it did so usually swapped to it when I used it).

*PS - If Bloodstone doesn't help with Terror (it doesn't seem to help with ANYTHING anymore) that is a sad time in this game. I won't whine about it, but I will be silently annoyed while still approving everything Turbine does with my wallet, because, like having that significant other that cheats on you every once in a while, I am annoyed but know I can't find better so shut up and take it.

[Ungood]

I won't whine about it, but I will be silently annoyed while still approving everything Turbine does with my wallet, because, like having that significant other that cheats on you every once in a while, I am annoyed but know I can't find better so shut up and take it.

So much win! :D

[frayberg007]

This is absolutely false. Some classes require more gear/skill, but none are inherently gimped.



This was a valid argument for trash mobs in... module 5? When RadII weapons were released, Rogues received a massive edge against trash mobs. You've heard of RadII, right? A RadII rapier (with improved critical) has a 30% chance to blind a mob, making them vulnerable to Sneak Attack for several seconds.

As for bosses, this was a valid argument in u11. After that, a bunch of epic weapons were given Improved Deception, which has the nice ability to render any mob, including bosses, vulnerable to sneak attacks. Dual wielding Improved Deception weapons can make bosses vulnerable for very long periods of time. This was only improved when this item (http://ddowiki.com/page/Golden_Guile) was released in u13. The Golden Guile gives Improved Deception to anything you wield, and will stack with weapons that already have it.

And, of course, there has always been Diplomacy and threat reduction effects, which allow Rogues to not steal aggro from party members for some time (many rogues have enough DPS to steal aggro with as low as 50% default threat, but this does not generally happen for a few seconds). And, in u9, Bluff was improved to last for 4 seconds, meaning that, without any deception items (even though Golden Guile is very easy to get), a Rogue can be sneak attacking a boss at least 25% of the time.

Combine dual Improved Deception weapons, Golden Guile, and Bluff, and a Rogue can sneak attack a boss that is aggroed on the Rogue for a very significant portion of the battle.

Add in Bluff Pulls, Assassinate, the highest stealth of any class (Noisemakers optional), high UMD, the Shadowdancer destiny (25% incorporeality, Consume [when it works], rendering Undead/Elementals/Constructs vulnerable to Sneak Attacks), the AC pass, and you have a class that is actually pretty good at soloing. Stealth play isn't the same as simple Hack 'n' Slash, and requires more skill, but it's still effective (and faster).

Not being dead adds a lot of DPS. Don't underestimate self healing.

The same goes for every single melee class. Comparing casters to melees is exceptionally tricky. At least Rogues have Assassinate.

Don't claim that classes are inherently gimp. It isn't true, and shows that you don't know as much as you think about the game.

ok and how will this work in a swarm of lets say 5 or 10 vs 1 scenario?

[StormKnight]

All I know is I"m glad I can actually access epic content now. The way it was before I jumped in a couple epics before solo just to check what it was like and thought , dam thats impossible and lost interest instantly.

[Qezuzu]

ok and how will this work in a swarm of lets say 5 or 10 vs 1 scenario?

If you aggro that many mobs at once while playing stealth, you did it wrong.

Stealth can allow you to skip most of the mobs in most content. For required kills, or for mobs that are facing a door/lever you need to use, there's bluff.

[2x4]

I have noticed dramatic increrases in the number of instances on Khyber. I haven't seen 4 and 5 instances prior to the expansion anywhere near as often as we do now.

LFM's are way up as well.

This statistic alone kind of pokes a hole in all of the threads like this one.

What I have been reading here and in many others is that the expansion braught change and it is the change that all of these posts are reacting to. I also have been reading these forums since u7 and there was massive pressure on these forums to make changes and to respond to bugs quicker.

They did it. It is here now and more change is coming.

It has made the game better, increased the number of players and yes makes us move out of our comfort zone.

To the OP just one direct comment. Based on your posts so far, you have no idea what an Artificer is capable of. Maybe you should explore that toon for a while and get away from your comfort zone.