AC as useless as before or am I wrong?

[Feithlin]

I'm on vacations and I can't play the game on my laptop, so I decided to take some time to check how I would respec my tank when I would be back.

I don't have the actual values of most armors and shields, neither could I test on actual mobs. I made rough guesses based on what I had and what I read from some posts. So the results are unsure. For this reason, this is still a question. Please correct me from your own observations.

At first guess, I should have around 120 AC with Heavy armor (maybe I forgot many things) and around 110 AC with Light armor (for evasion), both with large shield equiped and CE.
I looked what would be the AC mitigation against some sample to-hits, and here are the results (Formula, in case I made an error: 1-(To-hit+10.5)/(2*AC) ):
+50 to-hit (normal epic): 75% and 73%
+80 to-hit (hard epic): 62% and 59%
+120 to-hit (elite epic mob?): 46% and 41%
+200 to-hit (elite epic boss?): 12% and 4%
*Edited after correcting the formula.

So what, all these changes in AC for the same as before: AC totally useless except on difficulties where it's not much needed? :/
Edit: After correction, AC still has some effect on anything but +200 to-hit, so it would depend on the profiles of elite epic mobs.

I know there's PRR and Dodge to take into account. But the benefits from wearing heavy armor with all the SD bonuses is negligible. With 123 PRR, I would have 46% absorption, against 43% with a light armor (108 PRR).

So, that's it? Are we supposed to ignore AC and just go for Dodge and HP, while maintaining a 100+ PRR?
If this is so, it's pretty laughable. AC is meaningless in epics so everything is changed, and at the end: AC still meaningless?

[scoobmx]

You made an error: it's 2*AC in the denominator. There is a balance where the marginal benefits are equal: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383046 (the unit of increment isn't always 1, it depends on the availability of feats, enhancements, EDs and gear to you)

[Feithlin]

You made an error: it's 2*AC in the denominator. There is a balance where the marginal benefits are equal: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383046 (the unit of increment isn't always 1, it depends on the availability of feats, enhancements, EDs and gear to you)

Thanks, I update the OP.
That makes AC count much more significantly on anything but +200 to-hit.
However, there's still no real benefit from going heavy armored from what I see.

[ninjadwarf_uk]

There's more to the game than epic elite for many people.

AC matters now for many builds in many quests at normal and hard. My wizard / monk splash has a miss chance due to AC alone of 39%, with dodge and displacement that ends up at 71%, which is pretty useful.

[Jingwei]

formula is wrong, it's ((to hit) + 10.5)/ ((AC) * 2))

So, vs ~110 AC:

+50 to hit: Around 28% hit rate
+80 to hit: around 41% hit rate
+120 to hit: around 59% hit rate
+200 to hit: around 95% hit rate

[Moltier]

nvm, ninja

[Feithlin]

There's more to the game than epic elite for many people.

AC matters now for many builds in many quests at normal and hard. My wizard / monk splash has a miss chance due to AC alone of 39%, with dodge and displacement that ends up at 71%, which is pretty useful.

The %chance given on your character sheet is not necessarily your effective chance in quest. Which to-hit is it based on, and what's the to-hit of the real mobs. On normal and hard, it seems quite easy to reach effective AC. But so can anyone, there's no need to be a character specialized in defense.
My question is for my tank. If I can't gain no significant defense compared to a dps with a few feats/twists, I won't even try to grind the AC gear I miss.

[BruceTheHoon]

Thanks, I update the OP.
That makes AC count much more significantly on anything but +200 to-hit.
However, there's still no real benefit from going heavy armored from what I see.

The benefit of going out wearing a bank safe is in PRR (http://ddowiki.com/page/PRR).

[Feithlin]

Anyone has some estimation of the average to-hits in the different epic difficulties?

[Taimasan]

Oh Ac mos def is useful. =P

[Feithlin]

The benefit of going out wearing a bank safe is in PRR (http://ddowiki.com/page/PRR).

Not really because of reduced benefits when reaching around 100.
Heavy armor would give me 28 PRR and light armor 13.
But when you add everything, that ends with only 3% difference in damage mitigation.

From what I see, there are 2 main options: counting on heavy armor and free some feats/destinies/twists and go for higher dps, or playing defensive with light armor as heavy armors just make it more difficult to rise dodge for no significant benefit.

*Edit: Maybe go for SD with Dreadnought destiny?

[ninjadwarf_uk]

The %chance given on your character sheet is not necessarily your effective chance in quest. Which to-hit is it based on, and what's the to-hit of the real mobs. On normal and hard, it seems quite easy to reach effective AC. But so can anyone, there's no need to be a character specialized in defense.
My question is for my tank. If I can't gain no significant defense compared to a dps with a few feats/twists, I won't even try to grind the AC gear I miss.

The values on the character sheet are only useful as a comparison between builds, but they are still valid as a comparison.

Assuming you have a 10% dodge and blur running you'd have a miss chance factoring in PRR of 91%, to say whether this is significant or not we'd need to know the figures for a dps build.

[Feithlin]

The values on the character sheet are only useful as a comparison between builds, but they are still valid as a comparison.

Assuming you have a 10% dodge and blur running you'd have a miss chance factoring in PRR of 91%, to say whether this is significant or not we'd need to know the figures for a dps build.

I made some quick estimations.

By going SD without the Sentinel bonuses, I would have around 80 AC, 98 PRR, 20% Dodge and 10% Incorporeality (not counting Displacement clickies as important ennemies see through).
For +50 to-hit, that would be 84% overall mitigation against 89%.
For +80 to-hit, that would be 77% overall mitigation against 83%.
For +120 to-hit, that would be 66% overall mitigation against 76%.
For +200 to-hit, that would be 57% overall mitigation against 61%.

From this point of view, Sentinel doesn't seem to bring much. I'd have to check for HP, saves and threat to clarify any further.

[noinfo]

Thanks, I update the OP.
That makes AC count much more significantly on anything but +200 to-hit.
However, there's still no real benefit from going heavy armored from what I see.

Sure there is, much more PPR and a much lower dex to hit that target AC

[Feithlin]

Sure there is, much more PPR and a much lower dex to hit that target AC

I made my comparison with Heavy armor / +10 Dex / 11% Dodge, vs. Light armor / +11 Dex / 20% Dodge. I ended with the exact same overall mitigations, dodge compensating all the losses in AC and PRR, and without investing much more into Dex. BUT Light armor gives evasion, and Dodge is always the same whatever the to-hit of the ennemy.
Wearing heavy armor is probably of bigger benefit for a non Stalwart or for one lacking all the PRR bonuses from the feats.

[masterzzan]

idk about statistics but..

before i made my lesser reincarnate to shield and sword .fighting in the king's forest ,my 2hw stalwart defender got hit VERY often so much that i had to have a pocket healer tagging me. i had about 1.2k hp.
now that i use sword and board my dps is down a bit( like 16-32 damage for each hit.and had to remake 3 new gs items) but with ac 93~ and damage resist 94~ i can solo most drow groups in the forest. necro still hitting me bad with spells. but i got that 1.2k hp to help. so i can normally clear the drow groups by myself and then heal up with pots.
i actually solod a dragon two days ago. my hireling was bugged and wouldn't come out. keep in mind to grab some poison nut clikies tho.

[ninjadwarf_uk]

I made my comparison with Heavy armor / +10 Dex / 11% Dodge, vs. Light armor / +11 Dex / 20% Dodge. I ended with the exact same overall mitigations, dodge compensating all the losses in AC and PRR, and without investing much more into Dex. BUT Light armor gives evasion, and Dodge is always the same whatever the to-hit of the ennemy.
Wearing heavy armor is probably of bigger benefit for a non Stalwart or for one lacking all the PRR bonuses from the feats.

I suspect, though not considered numbers, that your right, for a cleric or kensai heavy armor will provide more benefit than to you as a SD, but that's a good thing because if light armor is a viable option then a tank with evasion is a big bonus.

[DoctorWhofan]

ALL I know is...When I put up my shield to block now, the damage is in the single digits.

Never was like that before. My shield might as well be paper. I was laughed at carrying one.

SO my cleric goes to the archer, divine punishment then block. Works great in the King's Forest. ALso, my pally is doing far better that before, and he's the original gimp pally from 2006.

I really don't pay attention to numbers. I look at them once in a while to make sure damage is correct or what htey are hitting me with or wether or not the heal is going off, but never really pay attention. Too busy with red bars. I watched them now to see the changes, and I have noticed the difference.

[luvirini]

Ac is way less useful than before at lower levels(it used to be fairly easy to get meaningful Ac at lower levels and on some builds at medium levels, giving upto 05% reductions in being hit), but much more meaningful at high(Now it works as damage migator even with moderate AC)

[BruceTheHoon]

So, that's it? Are we supposed to ignore AC and just go for Dodge and HP, while maintaining a 100+ PRR?
If this is so, it's pretty laughable. AC is meaningless in epics so everything is changed, and at the end: AC still meaningless?

That's a strange conclusion, to put it mildly.
Dodge caps at 25% damage mitigation.
PRR caps at ~50% damage mitigation.
AC caps at 70+% damage mitigation.
So, no, AC is not meaningless.
What you probably meant is, that increasing AC by 10% is less significant than increasing dodge by 400%, but this still doesn't make the previous 100+ AC meaningless.

[Feithlin]

That's a strange conclusion, to put it mildly.
Dodge caps at 25% damage mitigation.
PRR caps at ~50% damage mitigation.
AC caps at 70+% damage mitigation.
So, no, AC is not meaningless.
What you probably meant is, that increasing AC by 10% is less significant than increasing dodge by 400%, but this still doesn't make the previous 100+ AC meaningless.

What I meant is that building for AC doesn't give significant returns compared to just slotting minimal AC gear, and that AC is effectively as worthless as before against very high to-hits.
As I said, I dunno the to-hits of elite epic bosses, but if they are in the 200s like I read, there's no point investing into AC against them. If we consider epic elite to be the equivalent to the old epics at 20 compared to heroics, then things don't have changed.

[Ryiah]

If we consider epic elite to be the equivalent to the old epics at 20 compared to heroics, then things don't have changed.

Current state of Epics is that the old system was somewhere between Epic Hard and Epic Elite. So yes, things have changed.

[Vormaerin]

Given that you have the gear to make an extremely well defended light armor character, it is entirely possible that *for your build and gear* there is no advantage to going with heavy armor.

It is quite a lot more difficult to get light armor numbers at the level you are talking about than it is to get heavy armor numbers in that range. But since you can, you should go with evasion clearly.

However, that is a far cry from "AC is still useless." The problem with the old AC system was never that you couldn't get good results. Its that you could get results only at the ultimate extreme end and everyone else was better off in robes. That is no longer true. The fact that you can still build an effective light armor wearer is not an indictment of the new AC system. Rather the opposite.