Cleaver > eSoS ->Definitive Maths

[Boromirs]

On second glance.Cleaver would out DPS eSoS.

Epic Sword of Shadow (base die = 2.5[2d6]):

Average Hit Damage
274.63 = 150-175(Weapon) + 112.13(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
954.46 = 784-900.67(Weapon) + 112.13(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
464.84 = 358.33 + 106.52


Cleaver (base die = 2.5[2d8]):

Average Hit Damage
323.63 = 171.5-209.5(Weapon) + 133.13(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
1959.29 = 1643.5-1985.5(Weapon) + 145.13(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
472.84 = 347.25 + 125.59

20th halforc with full line of epic destinies, near max'd out gear, and a base dam of about 100.

In terms of DR breakage, I see now the devs just want us to twist in the proper DR breaking powers through EDs. It was kind of wierd that every epic weapon/greensteel/cannith crafting whatever had a slot or fix to break DR and the new FR relic weapons didn't. Well just glancing over the twistable ED feats shows that anyone can break DR. Basically, the devs said "wait why would they need a slot to break DR, just let them twist it in, it's a 23rd level weapon man!? they're gonna be using EDs !"

So there you have it, it's an eSoS killer. Just glanced over too quickly.

[Chai]

How are you getting average crit damage of roughly half on a weapon that has 18-20 x3 -vs- 20 x3.

[Khyse]

eSoS hit dice is 5d6 (15-40). It is a misprint on the item card.

[grayham]

In all honesty you could get a letter signed in blood by world leaders at the G8 summit saying the ESoS has been eclipsed and some folks wouldn't want to believe you. Heck, if I'd run 50+ Velah's and traded my all worldly goods for a scroll I think I might disbelieve that something so (relatively) quickly acquired would outdo it..

[djl]

On second glance.Cleaver would out DPS eSoS.

Epic Sword of Shadow (base die = 2.5[2d6]):

Average Hit Damage
274.63 = 150-175(Weapon) + 112.13(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
954.46 = 784-900.67(Weapon) + 112.13(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
464.84 = 358.33 + 106.52


Cleaver (base die = 2.5[2d8]):

Average Hit Damage
323.63 = 171.5-209.5(Weapon) + 133.13(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
1959.29 = 1643.5-1985.5(Weapon) + 145.13(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
472.84 = 347.25 + 125.59

20th halforc with full line of epic destinies, near max'd out gear, and a base dam of about 100.

In terms of DR breakage, I see now the devs just want us to twist in the proper DR breaking powers through EDs. It was kind of wierd that every epic weapon/greensteel/cannith crafting whatever had a slot or fix to break DR and the new FR relic weapons didn't. Well just glancing over the twistable ED feats shows that anyone can break DR. Basically, the devs said "wait why would they need a slot to break DR, just let them twist it in, it's a 23rd level weapon man!? they're gonna be using EDs !"

So there you have it, it's an eSoS killer. Just glanced over too quickly.

Except that you are going to be missing out on HUGE damage boosts if you twist DR breakers to use one of these weapons instead of twisting, say Tunnel Vision and Sense Weakness.

[Chai]

In all honesty you could get a letter signed in blood by world leaders at the G8 summit saying the ESoS has been eclipsed and some folks wouldn't want to believe you. Heck, if I'd run 50+ Velah's and traded my all worldly goods for a scroll I think I might disbelieve that something so (relatively) quickly acquired would outdo it..

I dont care if the ax outdoes it or not. In fact, Id love it if they made weapons that situationally outDPS eSOS. Its been 3 years now, heh.

What i want to know is, how is:

5d6 +10 18 -20 x3 out-critted by 5d8 + 7 20 x3

If you toss the imp crit feat on both.

5d6 +10 15-20 x3 -vs- 5d8 + 7 19-20.

[Malky]

Those calcs are probably wrong, iirc the falchion from the same raid is the closest to esos dps, but still lower under 50% fort.

[Boromirs]

I dont care if the ax outdoes it or not.

What i want to know is, how is:

5d6 +10 18 -20 x3 out-critted by 5d8 + 7 20 x3

It does, people who aren't completely familiar with all the zaniness of the ed content might be confused but..anyhow the below post was done for the eaga which is a bit behind cleaver in terms of raw damage maybe it can shed some light for you.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4558653&postcount=22

[Chai]

It does, people who aren't completely familiar with all the zaniness of the ed content might be confused but..anyhow the below post was done for the eaga which is a bit behind cleaver in terms of raw damage maybe it can shed some light for you.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4558653&postcount=22

Im perfectly familar with the end game content. Im asking you how a profile of:

5d8 +7 19-20 x3 outcrits 5d6 + 10 15-20x3

Please explain.
Im not talking about one swing. Im talking about outcritting throughout the entire profile.

[Boromirs]

Im perfectly familar with the end game content. Im asking you how a profile of:

5d8 +7 19-20 x3 outcrits 5d6 + 10 15-20x3

Please explain.

See above link its correct I ran both eaga numbers like he did through barrage. Cleaver was done by me only but seeing how its a bit better then eaga in raw dam its probably correct too. It gets messy and complicated and it doesn't outcrit only gets much much bigger crit numbers as it should.

[Chai]

See above link its correct I ran both eaga numbers like he did through barrage. Cleaver was done by me only but seeing how its a bit better then eaga in raw dam its probably correct too. It gets messy and complicated and it doesn't outcrit only gets much much bigger crit numbers as it should.

No - that link merely explains how higher fort puts the EAG at an advantage in specific cases. We've known this for a while now.

I want to know how you came up with a number twice as high for the cleaver as you did for the eSOS when the eSOS clearly has the superior crit profile.

You listed Average Crit Damage eSOS is 954.46 @ 5d6 +10 15-20

and...Average Crit Damage Cleaver is 1959.29 @ 5d8 + 7 19-20

Its really not messy and complicated. Its actually quite simple. The cleaver likely pulls ahead when approaching 100% fort. At 0 fort the eSOS crits the eyelids off cleaver.

[Boromirs]

No - that link merely explains how higher fort puts the EAG at an advantage in specific cases.

I want to know how you came up with a number twice as high for the cleaver as you did for the eSOS when the eSOS clearly has the superior crit profile.

You listed Average Crit Damage eSOS is 954.46 @ 5d6 +10 15-20

and...Average Crit Damage Cleaver is 1959.29 @ 5d8 + 7 19-20

Its really not messy and complicated. Its actually quite simple. The cleaver likely pulls ahead when approaching 100% fort. At 0 fort the eSOS crits the eyelids off cleaver.

Please reread post/link the example of the eaga was against 0 fort. If you started adding fort to the equation it would completely whip the esos. NO FORT was used in any of the calcs within this thread.

[Alkindus]

Guys, he's been doing this since half orcs were released. He either doesn't understand the game or is the best troll ever. Don't feed the trolls..

[Chai]

Please reread post/link the example of the eaga was against 0 fort. If you started adding fort to the equation it would completely whip the esos. NO FORT was used in any of the calcs within this thread.

Ok. Re-read it. Whats missing is accounting for the profile.

Hes also giving EAG 1k damage higher on crits and not explaining it.

A lower base damage weapon with an inferior crit profile does not outcrit a higher base damage weapon with superior crit profile.

The cleaver and eSOS are closer in base damage, but the eSOS still has the superior crit profile.

Esos barb dreadnaught w/dev crit and oCrit feat.

D20 roll
1 miss
2 1x base
3 1x base
4 1x base
5 1x base
6 1x base
7 1x base
8 1x base
9 1x base
10 1x base
11 1x base
12 1x base
13 1x base
14 1x base
15 3x base
16 3x base
17 3x base
18 3x base
19 8x base
20 8x base

EAG or cleaver barb dreadnaught w/dev crit and oCrit feat + headmans.

D20 roll
1 miss
2 1x base
3 1x base
4 1x base
5 1x base
6 1x base
7 1x base
8 1x base
9 1x base
10 1x base
11 1x base
12 1x base
13 1x base
14 1x base
15 1x base
16 1x base
17 1x base
18 1x base
19 9x base
20 9x base

The axes gain 1x base on 19s and 20s for a total of 2x base
The eSOS gains 2x each on 15, 16, 17, 18 for a total of 8x base.

Net advantage eSOS by 6x base damage per d20 cycle, on 0 fort.

(yeah i know - with the parabolic system no one is likely missing only on a 1 anymore, but even if they both missed on 1-3 it would be the same net advantage - we are talking the same toon with different weapon)

[Boromirs]

Ok. Re-read it. Whats missing is accounting for the profile.

Hes also giving EAG 1k damage higher on crits and not explaining it.

A lower base damage weapon with an inferior crit profile does not outcrit a higher base damage weapon with superior crit profile.

The cleaver and eSOS are closer in base damage, but the eSOS still has the superior crit profile.

Huh? Both cleaver and the eaga have superior base dam over esos... are you sure we're talking about the same weapons here?

[Chai]

Huh? Both cleaver and the eaga have superior base dam over esos... are you sure we're talking about the same weapons here?

That doesnt account for 1k points per crit.

[Rauven]

Your math is wrong, but that's ok cause math never solves anything.

[Boromirs]

That doesnt account for 1k points per crit.

I'm surprised you don't see it yet. You pretty much answered your own question from that little chart you wrote up.

[Chai]

I'm surprised you don't see it yet. You pretty much answered your own question from that little chart you wrote up.

That little chart I wrote up shows eSOS ahead by 6x base damage per cycle.

5d6 + 10 = 3.5*5 = 17.5 + 10 = 27.5 base damage
5d8 + 7 = 4.5*5 = 22.5 + 7 = 29.5 base damage.

2 points of base damage somehow = 1k more per crit? My barbarian needs to use the same steroids yours does, heh.

I was actually hoping it was true. The grind of these axes doesnt seem near as crazy as the grind for the eSOS.

[sephiroth1084]

You cannot reason with someone who has so obviously abandoned reason for so long.

[Expalphalog]

Chai, buddy, just stop.

Look at the guy's history:

Step 1) Post thread entitled X>eSoS
Step 2) Get proven wrong
Step 3) Throw some wierd tantrum where it vaguely seems like I might be a danger to myself and others
Step 4) Reiterate how I'm right with no justification even though in my last post I admit I was wrong
Step 5) Repeat steps 1-5

I don't know if he's a troll or just dangerously unbalanced but either way, just ignore him so he'll go away.

[Boromirs]

That little chart I wrote up shows eSOS ahead by 6x base damage per cycle.

5d6 + 10 = 3.5*5 = 17.5 + 10 = 27.5 base damage
5d8 + 7 = 4.5*5 = 22.5 + 7 = 29.5 base damage.

2 points of base damage somehow = 1k more per crit? My barbarian needs to use the same steroids yours does, heh.

I was actually hoping it was true. The grind of these axes doesnt seem near as crazy as the grind for the eSOS.

Its fine if you don't get it you don't get it.

[NytCrawlr]

What are they teaching you kids in math class these days? Seriously, first "math is not facts", now this.

[Stillwaters]

What are they teaching you kids in math class these days? Seriously, first "math is not facts", now this.

+1 : that's math at work :)

I swear the teachers these days have a LOT to answer for,
including the parents and other mentors.
Our capacity for thought sets us apart from the baser species,
The human race is devolving ffs.

Stop killing your brain cells and LEARN!

[Boromirs]

Although I really didn't want to post this since it doesn't matter because the "relic" weapon can't bypass DR . OK add up all those crits for the esos (x3*4)+(x8*2) divide it by 6,you get 4.66 or there's about. That means across the crit range you'll be doing x4.66 crit versus x9 crit across cleaver's or eaga's crit range. Hence why you have the massive chasm in average crit dam. You should be able to understand now where that 1k difference comes from.

[Chai]

Its fine if you don't get it you don't get it.

Yeah I get it. 2 points of base damage somehow = 1k more on crits. Cant explain that. /random pic of Bill O'Riley.


Chai, buddy, just stop.

Look at the guy's history:

Step 1) Post thread entitled X>eSoS
Step 2) Get proven wrong
Step 3) Throw some wierd tantrum where it vaguely seems like I might be a danger to myself and others
Step 4) Reiterate how I'm right with no justification even though in my last post I admit I was wrong
Step 5) Repeat steps 1-5

I don't know if he's a troll or just dangerously unbalanced but either way, just ignore him so he'll go away.

Sorry, I rolled a 1 on my reflex save and fell into the trap (I actually wished it was true). Ill sulk away now and continue farming eSOS.

[Rauven]

Although I really didn't want to post this since it doesn't matter because the "relic" weapon can't bypass DR . OK add up all those crits for the esos (x3*4)+(x8*2) divide it by 6,you get 4.66 or there's about. That means across the crit range you'll be doing x4.66 crit versus x9 crit across cleaver's or eaga's crit range. Hence why you have the massive chasm in average crit dam. You should be able to understand now where that 1k difference comes from.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0M2Lt-6QftLXf_DvyOklvuVIttYh950UnNfu-yq9Ku4i-az9r

[NytCrawlr]

Yeah I get it. 2 points of base damage somehow = 1k more on crits.

Let it go brother! Walk away! There be whales here!

[elraido]

Although I really didn't want to post this since it doesn't matter because the "relic" weapon can't bypass DR . OK add up all those crits for the esos (x3*4)+(x8*2) divide it by 6,you get 4.66 or there's about. That means across the crit range you'll be doing x4.66 crit versus x9 crit across cleaver's or eaga's crit range. Hence why you have the massive chasm in average crit dam. You should be able to understand now where that 1k difference comes from.

You are trying to divide by 0...aren't you?

[Boromirs]

Boromirs... how many times are you going to post some definitive statement in your post titles, only to withdraw the statement like 7 posts into the thread when you realize you're wrong.

This happens nearly all the time with your posts.

Maybe you should post questions like "Is the cleaver better then eSoS?" and then lay out what you think instead of the way you do it.

Just a suggestion.

No no, the title is appropriate the math checks out but then someone mentioned DR and they were right it doesn't bypass DR at all which makes it useless in raids.le sigh.

P.s. a LOT of peeps here can't seem to do grade school maths. Either that or they are so blinded by years of grinding for one weapon that they don't bother looking at the maths at all.

[elraido]

No no, the title is appropriate the math checks out but then someone mentioned DR and they were right it doesn't bypass DR at all which makes it useless in raids.le sigh.

P.s. a LOT of peeps here can't seem to do grade school maths. Either that or they are so blinded by years of grinding for one weapon that they don't bother looking at the maths at all.

Your math is wrong. Plain and simple.

[NytCrawlr]

a LOT of peeps here can't seem to do grade school maths.

Not a lot, just you.

[Ivan_Milic]

No no, the title is appropriate the math checks out but then someone mentioned DR and they were right it doesn't bypass DR at all which makes it useless in raids.le sigh.

P.s. a LOT of peeps here can't seem to do grade school maths. Either that or they are so blinded by years of grinding for one weapon that they don't bother looking at the maths at all.

Nop,I just started doing von to get esos and even I can see that esos is better than that cleaver,you are obviously a troll.

[Boromirs]

Your math is wrong. Plain and simple.

I really don't think both me AND wraith AND barrage is wrong.

[Ivan_Milic]

I thought Overwhelming Critical is bugged.

[Boromirs]

Nop,I just started doing von to get esos and even I can see that esos is better than that cleaver,you are obviously a troll.

The only people who have done any math is me everyone else is on some "I've wasted a ton of my life grinding for esos" QQ. EAGA for DR/fort raid...cleaver for trash without DR. it's that simple and both weapons in their respective roles will trump the esos.

[gerardIII]

add up all those crits for the esos (x3*4)+(x8*2) divide it by 6,you get 4.66 or there's about. That means across the crit range you'll be doing x4.66 crit versus x9 crit across cleaver's or eaga's crit range.
You're calculating the average crit multiplier, but you forget to put the crit range in the equation, i.e. 4.66*6 vs 9*2.

Doing that mistake you just did is like calculating the average weight of the 10 inhabitants of Fat Island (imaginary island of the Pacific) which is 250kg and comparing to the average weight of the chinese let's say 60kg, and concluding that the population of Fat Island weighs more than the population of China. Yes you forgot to multiply the average weight of 250 by 10 for a total of 2500kg and the average weight of 60kg by 1.5 billions for a total of roughly 90 billions kg. You proudly hand us that toilet paper garbage math of yours and say "look daddy! I proved 2=1 !"

If the average is higher it doesn't necessarily mean the sum of the values is higher.

You fail at simple math and you fail at simple logic.

And yeah I proved you're wrong even though I suck at math.

[Ivan_Milic]

Esos has 15-20 crit,cleaver 19-20,it cant be doing more average dmg on trash because trash has 0% fort.

[sephiroth1084]

Look at it this way. If you have +100 damage...

An ESoS does 0 on a rolled 1, +100 on rolls of 2-14, and +300 on rolls of 15-20.
Cleaver does 0 on a rolled 1, +100 on rolls of 2-18, and +300 on rolls of 19 and 20.

That means the ESoS is doing (13*100) + (6*300) = 1300+1800 = 3100
That means the Cleaver does (17*100) + (2*300) = 1700+600 = 2300

Cleaver would have to be doing (3100-2300=800) more damage than the ESoS over 19 hits in order for it to be tied, or (800/19=~42). It's not doing that much more damage per hit, so it isn't equal, and certainly isn't better.

[Chai]

See above link its correct I ran both eaga numbers like he did through barrage. Cleaver was done by me only but seeing how its a bit better then eaga in raw dam its probably correct too. It gets messy and complicated and it doesn't outcrit only gets much much bigger crit numbers as it should.



P.s. a LOT of peeps here can't seem to do grade school maths. Either that or they are so blinded by years of grinding for one weapon that they don't bother looking at the maths at all.

Messy and complicated, gradeschool math. :p

I see this on the forums alot actually. People ask for an explanation and they get told the math is too complicated to explain. Then when they press the issue the poster who doesnt want to justify their claim implies that anyone questioning it doesnt have the intelligence to understand it.

Min maxing in D&D is easy. Alot of us were doing this when we were 12. Any explanation provided would be easily understood by the majority of forumites. The issue here is, those same forumites would poke holes in anything they see to be incorrect - as they often do - so its far easier to withold said explanation and act like everyone who questions it doesnt understand basic grade school math, which the poster here first claimed was too complicated to explain.

[Boromirs]

Wow so many people who again haven't looked at the maths,silly people who think I left out the esos's crit range -the defining component of the weapon- You guys are too much,take a deep breath come back from work and with a clear head open up barrage or get a calculator and start doing some good old fashioned min maxing.Then discover for yourself.

"The power of inception is that the person himself creates the idea.
..there's nothing more powerful."

[Boromirs]

Messy and complicated, gradeschool math. :p

I see this on the forums alot actually. People ask for an explanation and they get told the math is too complicated to explain. Then when they press the issue the poster who doesnt want to justify their claim implies that anyone questioning it doesnt have the intelligence to understand it.

Min maxing in D&D is easy. Alot of us were doing this when we were 12. Any explanation provided would be easily understood by the majority of forumites. The issue here is, those same forumites would poke holes in anything they see to be incorrect - as they often do - so its far easier to withold said explanation and act like everyone who questions it doesnt understand basic grade school math, which the poster here first claimed was too complicated to explain.

Chai I've already explained where u get the 1 k u must have missed it in the barrage of forum posts.

[Chai]

Chai I've already explained where u get the 1 k u must have missed it in the barrage of forum posts.

You said base damage - and I showed you that 2 points of base damage doesnt = 1k more damage per crit with 1x more crit multiplier on a 19-20. Youd have to be hitting for 1K -MORE- damage base. Like I said before, if you are, my barbarian needs to be taking the same steroids your barbarian is taking. :p

[Boromirs]

You said base damage - and I showed you that 2 points of base damage doesnt = 1k more damage per crit with 1x more crit multiplier on a 19-20. Youd have to be hitting for 1K -MORE- damage base. Like I said before, if you are, my barbarian needs to be taking the same steroids your barbarian is taking. :p

...And you missed my post please go back and reread.

[Chai]

...And you missed my post please go back and reread.

Please refrain from implying that I didnt read something or that I somehow wouldnt understand it. These implied insults are against forum rules.

Please also explain why you have 1k more crit damage average listed for the ax than for the eSOS when the only advantage the ax has is 2 points of base damage.

I am asking this question specifically. Please do not quote me and reply back if you do not have an answer to this specific question. Refrain from telling me to re-read stuff I already re-read and answer the question, specifically.

[Boromirs]

Please refrain from implying that I didnt read something or that I somehow wouldnt understand it. These implied insults are against forum rules.

Please also explain why you have 1k more crit damage average listed for the ax than for the eSOS when the only advantage the ax has is 2 points of base damage.

I am asking this question specifically. Please do not quote me and reply back if you do not have an answer to this specific question. Refrain from telling me to re-read stuff I already re-read and answer the question, specifically.

No I think you genuinely missed my post. I think its on page 2 if that helps you.

[elraido]

No I think you genuinely missed my post. I think its on page 2 if that helps you.

No he didn't miss your point. You just don't understand his or the math.

[Chai]

Although I really didn't want to post this since it doesn't matter because the "relic" weapon can't bypass DR . OK add up all those crits for the esos (x3*4)+(x8*2) divide it by 6,you get 4.66 or there's about. That means across the crit range you'll be doing x4.66 crit versus x9 crit across cleaver's or eaga's crit range. Hence why you have the massive chasm in average crit dam. You should be able to understand now where that 1k difference comes from.

This does not create a 1k per crit difference accross a 20 roll cycle, not even close.


Look at it this way. If you have +100 damage...

An ESoS does 0 on a rolled 1, +100 on rolls of 2-14, and +300 on rolls of 15-20.
Cleaver does 0 on a rolled 1, +100 on rolls of 2-18, and +300 on rolls of 19 and 20.

That means the ESoS is doing (13*100) + (6*300) = 1300+1800 = 3100
That means the Cleaver does (17*100) + (2*300) = 1700+600 = 2300

Cleaver would have to be doing (3100-2300=800) more damage than the ESoS over 19 hits in order for it to be tied, or (800/19=~42). It's not doing that much more damage per hit, so it isn't equal, and certainly isn't better.

This is the correct explanation.

[Schwarzie]

I highly approve of this thread. It makes me cry and laugh all at the same time. http://allthingsordinary.se/images/original/569__seal-of-approval.jpg?1256695294

[Boromirs]

This does not create a 1k per crit difference accross a 20 roll cycle, not even close.



This is the correct explanation.

:: shakes head:: Either you refuse to look at the equation , cannot understand it,or you see it and you're trolling me for some reason. Do you honestly believe I would leave out the crit range for the eSoS the ENTIRE reason why its so powerful. Again its the above three.

[Schwarzie]

:: shakes head:: Either you refuse to look at the equation , cannot understand it,or you see it and you're trolling me for some reason. Do you honestly believe I would leave out the crit range for the eSoS the ENTIRE reason why its so powerful. Again its the above three.
I really admire your style of trolling. Its awesome! your so **** persistant despite all of reality is trying to tell you how wrong you are and despite any proof presentet to you you still ignore it.

Plain awesome mate!

PS: For the next to unbelievable case that you genuinely think that you are correct about having calculated in the complete crit potential of the ESOS that with 3 times times 3 and 2 times time 8 (so in total 22times basedamage extra) doesnt generate more critical damage then the Axe with 2 times times 9 (16 times extra basedamage), well you are wrong.

[Boromirs]

I really admire your style of trolling. Its awesome! your so **** persistant despite all of reality is trying to tell you how wrong you are and despite any proof presentet to you you still ignore it.

Plain awesome mate!

PS: For the next to unbelievable case that you genuinely think that you are correct about having calculated in the complete crit potential of the ESOS that with 3 times times 3 and 2 times time 8 (so in total 22times basedamage extra) doesnt generate more critical damage then the Axe with 2 times times 9 (16 times extra basedamage), well you are wrong.

Just PM Wraith Chai OK? He'll explain it to you,in maths its called Bayesian analysis where you're getting average values over a range of possible outcomes. The maths by me ,wraith,and barrage program are correct. If you are really curious you can do it yourself or whatever at this point I care not

[NytCrawlr]

Bayesian Analysis (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/BayesianAnalysis.html)

"Bayesian analysis is somewhat controversial because the validity of the result depends on how valid the prior distribution is, and this cannot be assessed statistically.

Bayesian analysis is used in the design of software filters to automatically detect and delete junk electronic mail (i.e., "spam")."

I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.

[Chai]

Just PM Wraith Chai OK? He'll explain it to you,in maths its called Bayesian analysis where you're getting average values over a range of possible outcomes. The maths by me ,wraith,and barrage program are correct. If you are really curious you can do it yourself or whatever at this point I care not

I already ran the numbers in barrage, before i posted once in this thread. They clearly showed the eSOS is ahead by roughly the same number sephiroth posted.

You have the ax doing ~1k more damage per average crit than the esos, which is the flaw.

[BlackSteel]

I am asking this question specifically. Please do not quote me and reply back if you do not have an answer to this specific question. Refrain from telling me to re-read stuff I already re-read and answer the question, specifically.

you're not going to get a real answer from him. He obviously has no understanding of what he's talking about, and has been hand-held thru game mechanics since he started trolling the forums (starting in the New player section asking for advice, followed by about a month later trying to give advice out). Lucky for him there was Shade's Max DPS barb guide to follow. Altho he's since begged for it to be updated.

you're not missing anything in your #'s Chai, the answer is simply that boro is completely wrong as usual. I know on this medium its hard NOT to ignore commenting on something thats wrong or BS, but in his case its really like argueing with a small child or just keeps shaking their head or saying 'nuh-uh' nothing about the content and everything about the attention

[Boromirs]

you're not going to get a real answer from him. He obviously has no understanding of what he's talking about, and has been hand-held thru game mechanics since he started trolling the forums (starting in the New player section asking for advice, followed by about a month later trying to give advice out). Lucky for him there was Shade's Max DPS barb guide to follow. Altho he's since begged for it to be updated.

you're not missing anything in your #'s Chai, the answer is simply that boro is completely wrong as usual. I know on this medium its hard NOT to ignore commenting on something thats wrong or BS, but in his case its really like argueing with a small child or just keeps shaking their head or saying 'nuh-uh' nothing about the content and everything about the attention

So apparently then Wraith is also wrong too? Wraith Saverok has been here for a quite a while and he seems to be a numbers guru as well. Now I do my own numbers but I like to confirm with other people's numbers. We have two people getting the same numbers, all you have is hearsay,unsubstantiated opinion, and slander.

[elraido]

So apparently then Wraith is also wrong too? Wraith Saverok has been here for a quite a while and he seems to be a numbers guru as well. Now I do my own numbers but I like to confirm with other people's numbers. We have two people getting the same numbers, all you have is hearsay,unsubstantiated opinion, and slander.

Use math and prove you are right. People are punching holes all over in your arguements, yet you say they are wrong. What you are doing is saying 1+1=3 because it makes sense to me and everyone else must be wrong.

[BlackSteel]

I've yet to see you have one intelligent post that would suggest any understanding of game mechanics that wasnt parroted from someone else.

the past couple weeks has been nothing but 'please new super weapon'

'oh look new shiney, this new shiney >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else'

'oh wait, its not????????'

'oh look another new shiney, this new shiney >>>>>>>>>>>>>>. everything else, forgot last shiney!'

[Chai]

So apparently then Wraith is also wrong too? Wraith Saverok has been here for a quite a while and he seems to be a numbers guru as well. Now I do my own numbers but I like to confirm with other people's numbers. We have two people getting the same numbers, all you have is hearsay,unsubstantiated opinion, and slander.

Nope we have the same barrage tool you have, and when we plug in the correct numbers, the correct result comes out. It is within 1% of what sephiroth posted.

Yours on the other hand is trying to say that the cleaver is doing 1k more per crit than the eSOS, which is incorrect.

The first thing "math gurus" do is question their own calculations to see if they are reasonable. Do you really think Turbine would put a weapon in the game that does 1k MORE per crit than the best weapon already in the game?

[Boromirs]

I've yet to see you have one intelligent post that would suggest any understanding of game mechanics that wasnt parroted from someone else.

the past couple weeks has been nothing but 'please new super weapon'

'oh look new shiney, this new shiney >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else'

'oh wait, its not????????'

'oh look another new shiney, this new shiney >>>>>>>>>>>>>>. everything else, forgot last shiney!'

So I am right and you are wrong? This is what this post says to me, "parroted" or not. Stick to the argument and don't get emotional is my advice to you sir.

[Monkey_Archer]

See, proof that 'Math never helps solve problems, it only further complicates them.'

[archora]

I always feel dumber everytime I read one of the OPs posts, if I dont stop i'll forget how to spell my own name.

[elraido]

I always feel dumber everytime I read one of the OPs posts, if I dont stop i'll forget how to spell my own name.

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

Personally, I am now flagging his posts as spam and being arguementative. If it gets me banned in the process, I will consider it the same as throwing myself on a grenade to save the rest of you.

[BlackSteel]

i always feel dumber everytime i read one of the ops posts, if i dont stop i'll forget how to spell my own name.

+1

[TheStog]

Reminds me of my college students when they are adamant that their math is correct even though the answer makes absolutely no sense in the context of the question...which I then need to look through all their chaotic unreadable work to find the one computational or algebraic mistake they made and point it out to them.

We just need to see your work and we can show you why its wrong.


Math skills in America are frightening. Thank you technology.

[sephiroth1084]

Because I'm tired of the idiocy (and am finally home, so I can use Barrage).
http://thestreetwhereyoulive.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/get-schooled-again.jpg

BARRAGE
Assumptions:
ESoS
5d6
Base damage: 80 (going lowish to give Cleaver some chance at being close)
Crit Profile: 15-20/x3
Seeker: +6 (again, going low to favor Cleaver)
Calculation: 156.53

Cleaver
5d8
Base damage: 77 (+7 enhancement bonus vs. ESoS's +10)
Crit Profile: 19-20/x3
Seeker: +6
On-hit: +2d8
Calculation: 124.78 (116.23 + 8.55)
Double-strike 6%: 124.78*1.06 = 132.26

ESoS 156 is greater than Cleaver 132, because that's how math works.

And just to quell any further argument...
Cleaver with +1 to multiplier with Legendary Dreadnought: 135.33
w/ Double-strike: 143.44

That's still more than 10 points per swing behind the ESoS!

Okay, let's add in glancing blows.
Assuming GTHF, no barbarian capstone, no Fury of the Wild bonuses.
ESoS: 17.5 (5d6 avg) +80 = 97.5; 97.5*0.75 (3 of 4 swings)*0.5 (50% damage from GTHF) = 36.56 + 156 = 192

Cleaver: 22.5 (5d8 avg) +77 = 99.5; 99.5*0.75*0.5 = 37.31 *1.06 = 39.55 + 143 = 182

See, Boromirs, that's called MATH. It's not hard. And you're wrong, like you are time and again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again.

And if your base damage goes up, the ESoS ends up pulling farther and farther ahead of the Cleaver. Oh, and the ESoS beats DR Adamantine on its own, and can be slotted to beat any metal DR, and alignment DR, or some combination, whereas the Cleaver simply doesn't beat DR.

Many of the monsters we fight with 100% Fort are also immune to Bleed damage, which means you're looking at 29.5 (5d8 +7) vs. 27.5 (5d6 +10) and +3 to-hit, so even at 100% Fortification, the ESoS is still likely going to be the better choice, since if you are missing on anything more than a 1, +3 to-hit is more than +2 DPS.

[Niv-mizzet]

This thread is glorious.

Hats off to a truly ground-breaking pioneer in the art of trolling.

[Dagolar]

I highly approve of this thread. It makes me cry and laugh all at the same time.
http://allthingsordinary.se/images/original/569__seal-of-approval.jpg?1256695294

;P

I'm thinking more this Seal expression, though:
http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2007/specials/yearend/cutestcouples/seal.jpg

[Stillwaters]

Quite happy to give Boromirs the "Spayed" award

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs9/i/2006/071/2/9/Spade_of_Skulls_by_designbyry.jpg

Because those who cannot do addition, shouldn't MULTIPLY!

[Nibor]

since if you are missing on anything more than a 1, +3 to-hit is more than +2 DPS.

Everything about your post was A++ fantastic, except for perhaps this line.
Under the new combat system, +3 to hit may not be worth anything at all, and is likely to be worth at most 1 number on the twenty-sided roll; possibly not at all.
In cases where it's worth a number on the 20-sided, I would assume that's better than +2DPS.

[sephiroth1084]

Everything about your post was A++ fantastic, except for perhaps this line.
Under the new combat system, +3 to hit may not be worth anything at all, and is likely to be worth at most 1 number on the twenty-sided roll; possibly not at all.
In cases where it's worth a number on the 20-sided, I would assume that's better than +2DPS.
I should have also added that the potential difference is likely not enough to bother farming for the new weapon. In fact, I'd rather have the EAG as a back-up, since it's damage is going to apply to almost anything you're fighting, and it breaks DR, while being rather close in damage, and has a higher attack and damage bonus from straight +enhancements than the new weapon, if the target is evil thanks to Righteousness +6 enhancement (and potential for +7 on red slot).

[loki_3369]

It does, people who aren't completely familiar with all the zaniness of the ed content might be confused but

Implying you're an expert on end game content. The fact you got the base damage mixed up on the esos says it all...

Nonetheless, made me lol. I thank you for that, sir.

[Boromirs]

Originally Posted by Shade
Barrage calc for my char - giving the cleaver the best possible scenario:
(18/2/5/5) (halforc bbn/ftr/epic/dreadnaught)
Dmg mod: +123 base (full boosterseat buffs!, same for all cuz including shipbuff)
seeker: 6 for cleaver (Epic Ring of Stalker), 8 for others (+2 from grt bold trinket)
+4 dmg/hit on cleaver as I do have setbonus (swap trinket for grter bold when not using cleaver)
+1 W for combat brute included
+1 dev crit
+1 headsmans chop to make axes look nice - tho didnt take anything sword off even tho i cant afford those 2 ap atm withou taking something off.
Glancing blows calc'd too. went standard 75% chance.

Cleaver:
Dmg mod total: 134 (+7 enhance, +4 trinket set)
Average Hit Damage
236.56 = 141-190(Weapon) + 71.06(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
1443.06 = 1176-1568(Weapon) + 71.06(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
366.11 = 294.55 + 71.56

Epic Antique:
Dmg mod total: 130 (+7 enhance)
Average Hit Damage
225.56 = 133-190(Weapon) + 64.06(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
1431.06 = 1128-1584(Weapon) + 75.06(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
334.83 = 272.88 + 61.96

ESoS:
Dmg mod total: 130 (+10 enhance)
Average Hit Damage
216.56 = 140-175(Weapon) + 59.06(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
776.23 = 641.33-793(Weapon) + 59.06(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
373.63 = 317.53 + 56.11

Shade did not calculate in other +[W] enhancing feats/enhancements/abilities etc. , I did, this would only increase the damage done by cleaver due to the differences of base dam 2.5*(7) for esos and 2.5*(9) for cleaver.

BTW, note even here too the average crit damage is double for cleaver 1443 vs. 776 just like with the other calculations. So now you would need to say that me, Wraith, and now Shade calculated something wrong. Really, 3 people must be drinking the same koolaid? ...

[shadereaper33]

Originally Posted by Shade
Barrage calc for my char - giving the cleaver the best possible scenario:
(18/2/5/5) (halforc bbn/ftr/epic/dreadnaught)
Dmg mod: +123 base (full boosterseat buffs!, same for all cuz including shipbuff)
seeker: 6 for cleaver (Epic Ring of Stalker), 8 for others (+2 from grt bold trinket)
+4 dmg/hit on cleaver as I do have setbonus (swap trinket for grter bold when not using cleaver)
+1 W for combat brute included
+1 dev crit
+1 headsmans chop to make axes look nice - tho didnt take anything sword off even tho i cant afford those 2 ap atm withou taking something off.
Glancing blows calc'd too. went standard 75% chance.

Cleaver:
Dmg mod total: 134 (+7 enhance, +4 trinket set)
Average Hit Damage
236.56 = 141-190(Weapon) + 71.06(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
1443.06 = 1176-1568(Weapon) + 71.06(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
366.11 = 294.55 + 71.56

Epic Antique:
Dmg mod total: 130 (+7 enhance)
Average Hit Damage
225.56 = 133-190(Weapon) + 64.06(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
1431.06 = 1128-1584(Weapon) + 75.06(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
334.83 = 272.88 + 61.96

ESoS:
Dmg mod total: 130 (+10 enhance)
Average Hit Damage
216.56 = 140-175(Weapon) + 59.06(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
776.23 = 641.33-793(Weapon) + 59.06(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
373.63 = 317.53 + 56.11

Shade did not calculate in other +[W] enhancing feats/enhancements/abilities etc. , I did, this would only increase the damage done by cleaver due to the differences of base dam 2.5*(7) for esos and 2.5*(9) for cleaver.

BTW, note even here too the average crit damage is double for cleaver 1443 vs. 776 just like with the other calculations. So now you would need to say that me, Wraith, and now Shade calculated something wrong. Really, 3 people must be drinking the same koolaid? ...

avg crit damage per crit hit =/= DPS. The cleaver can hit harder, on a 19 or 20, but nowhere near as hard on a 15, 16, 17, or 18. those other 4 numbers on the d20 are why the eSoS is a better choice.

[PopeJual]

Although I really didn't want to post this since it doesn't matter because the "relic" weapon can't bypass DR . OK add up all those crits for the esos (x3*4)+(x8*2) divide it by 6,you get 4.66 or there's about. That means across the crit range you'll be doing x4.66 crit versus x9 crit across cleaver's or eaga's crit range. Hence why you have the massive chasm in average crit dam. You should be able to understand now where that 1k difference comes from.

This is awesome.


When I explain probability and statistics to my students, I offer them a bet. I'll roll a d6 10 times. For each roll...
On a 1-5, I get $1.
On a 6, they get $3.

Every semester, I get one student who takes me up on that bet because $3 is more than $1.

I never make them pay up. Partly because I'm a nice guy and partly because I think I'd probably be fired if I did try to collect.

[BitkaCK2]

This is awesome.


When I explain probability and statistics to my students, I offer them a bet. I'll roll a d6 10 times. For each roll...
On a 1-5, I get $1.
On a 6, they get $3.

Every semester, I get one student who takes me up on that bet because $3 is more than $1.

I never make them pay up. Partly because I'm a nice guy and partly because I think I'd probably be fired if I did try to collect.

LOL

Tell ya what, let's make it a 5 roll sample w/o replacement and a $10 payout on a 6 and I'm in. ;)

bitkaCK2

[Stillwaters]

I never make them pay up. Partly because I'm a nice guy and partly because I think I'd probably be fired if I did try to collect.

Sugar coating life lessons isnt helping them :P
These are the same players i feed off at the poker table

Nice move though +1

Need more teachers like you

EDIT: ever think of making them pay up and putting it in the teachers coffee room fund? ;)

[PopeJual]

LOL

Tell ya what, let's make it a 5 roll sample w/o replacement and a $10 payout on a 6 and I'm in. ;)

bitkaCK2

If you can figure out how to roll a d6 without replacement, you'll deserve that payout! :)

[sephiroth1084]

Originally Posted by Shade
You are beyond hopeless!

You quote someone else's numbers, that show the ESoS ahead of the Cleaver, and then try to use those numbers as evidence that somehow you're correct? Did you look at the numbers I posted, which come right off of Barrage? Are you braindead?

The Cleaver does more damage per crit (almost twice as much), but the ESoS crits three times as often! 3>2. Go do something useful with your time, like using your head as a doorstop, because it clearly isn't serving any other purpose right now.

And Axer's calculations got Cleaver closer because he's using the set bonus for +4 damage. That's two items he's equipping to NOT be as good as the ESoS! How can you possibly point to this and claim that it proves your point?

[sephiroth1084]

This is awesome.


When I explain probability and statistics to my students,
This isn't even about probability, or math anymore, it's about reading comprehension and very simple data analysis. My 6 year old cousins could pick the correct weapon at this point.

Hell, I bet a chimpanzee taught some basic reading and math skills and how to use a keyboard could provide better posts!

[BitkaCK2]

If you can figure out how to roll a d6 without replacement, you'll deserve that payout! :)

Well I was thinking of a reroll if a number comes up a second time although that might introduce a few interesting factors along the lines of "How many rolls of a die does it take to roll a <specific number between 1 and 6>" into the fun. As in the reroll acting as a psuedo-replacement in the sampling. ... Dang now that's gonna bug me...

bitkaCK2

EDIT: Basically I was just trying to whip up a scenario from your example where I had close to a 50/50 chance of win $6 or lose $5.

[Nephilia]

I'm envying u so much about the cleave if u have one :(
I'll stand with my poor and sad eSoS till I'll be so lucky to have a cleaver too :(

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9581/volpeuvabd7.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/volpeuvabd7.jpg/)


(This is called sarcasm, just to point it out :3)

[Svartelric]

Why is people still arguing with this guy?

[brzytki]

Originally Posted by Shade

snip

BTW, note even here too the average crit damage is double for cleaver 1443 vs. 776 just like with the other calculations. So now you would need to say that me, Wraith, and now Shade calculated something wrong. Really, 3 people must be drinking the same koolaid? ...

LOL

Because nothing says "I'm right and you are all wrong" better than hiding behind posts of two people who have a rather big history of "dumb/stupid/wrong" posts. Not only that but you quoted Shade's calcs that show ESoS ahead of Cleaver.

If they said that barbs using quarterstaves will outdps barbs with ESoS would you believe them without checking first? This thread, and many started by you recently, show neither do you understand simple math nor can use logic on your own. If multiplying is that hard for you, try something small, like adding, first.

[Machination]

I blame this all on Turbine. Some very simple additions to the gear explanation, would save the community all the drama over number crunching and algorithm checking and just let us all play the darn game. Here are my recommendations:

1. For any weapon that <=eSoS, add the following to the description, "Nothing to see here, put this weapon up for roll if have already acquired the eSoS. If you have not yet acquired an eSoS, this weapon can act as a obsolete surrogate until such time you acquire the eSoS."

2. For any weapon that >eSoS, add the following to the description, "At long last, the psychological barrier has been crossed, and this weapon is better than the greatsword that has been around since the middle ages of DDO. We all know its hard to believe and probably you won't ever want to believe it, but yes we actually did come up with something new for you that is better than that which has been available since the near dawn of DDO."

3. My third suggestion is make it a maul, or a staff, or something not slashing. Shake things up a bit.

[Ivan_Milic]

Esos base dmg rating 35.75
Cleaver base dmg rating 32.45

[Dagolar]

This is awesome.


When I explain probability and statistics to my students, I offer them a bet. I'll roll a d6 10 times. For each roll...
On a 1-5, I get $1.
On a 6, they get $3.

Every semester, I get one student who takes me up on that bet because $3 is more than $1.

I never make them pay up. Partly because I'm a nice guy and partly because I think I'd probably be fired if I did try to collect.

See, the trick here is that YOU'RE rolling the dice. Hell, I bet it's weighted!
:Stretches fingers: Now, lets see.. I just need to roll 3 6s..

..I feel I've aimed for that before, somewhere..

[jwdaniels]

I've never seen such awesome "logic" before:

I'm going to use these numbers that are completely different from my numbers and show the opposite conclusion that I am trying to draw to show that my original numbers and my original point are correct.

OP, how many times did you trade two dimes for a quarter as a kid because two is greater than one?

[Gawna]

Barrage told me that my Club of the Silver Flame is the bestest weapon there is. True story.

[Valiance]

On a seperate note for anyone who is actually caring about this thread anymore is that due to "overkill" the Esos is effectively even better than the correct math shows, especially on trash mobs.

What I mean is getting those huge crits on 19-20 is often going to be wasted if the mob only had say 300 hp left. Critting for 1000 in that instance is a waste of 700 damage right there.

In this game huge spikes of damage can be fun but lower spikes more often is nearly always better.

V

[Boromirs]

People still just don't want to see the truth. The only one who's in my corner right now is the dev who created Cleaver, who can't say anything on these boards but who's quietly nodding his head in agreement to what I'm saying.

The loot raid is actually quite powerful, and yes, more so then the eSoS. People are just thinking pre-expansion and not post with their characters, not realizing we're talking about a lev 23 weapon which can only be used by close to max'd out level 23 characters.

[PopeJual]

the dev who created Cleaver, who can't say anything on these boards

The dev who created Cleaver has posted multiple times on this board.

[Boromirs]

The dev who created Cleaver has posted multiple times on this board.

Yes, and he's absolutely right. The weapons like Cleaver are extremely powerful, and some people here just don't realize what they(the devs) are trying to tell players about the 21+ content of this game. Everyone here thinks Morhn is the greatest thing since sliced bread because they take a glance at the crit profile. But I'm telling you folks that weapons like Cleaver are exceptionally strong, way more so then the eSoS even in pure DPS wise, especially with the new content... you're just not seeing *HOW* to use these weapons.

Time will vindicate me.

[threefeetunder]

http://i.gifreply.com/4eg6r.gif
This thread is a compelling read.
Please, continue.

[PopeJual]

Yes, and he's absolutely right. The weapons like Cleaver are extremely powerful, and some people here just don't realize what they(the devs) are trying to tell players about the 21+ content of this game. Everyone here thinks Morhn is the greatest thing since sliced bread because they take a glance at the crit profile. But I'm telling you folks that weapons like Cleaver are exceptionally strong, way more so then the eSoS even in pure DPS wise, especially with the new content... you're just not seeing *HOW* to use these weapons.

Time will vindicate me.

Educate me.

*HOW* do I use the Cleaver in order to get the most benefit from it? Is there a special technique that I should be using when I swing the weapon in order to do more damage than I'm currently doing?

[Boromirs]

Educate me.

*HOW* do I use the Cleaver in order to get the most benefit from it? Is there a special technique that I should be using when I swing the weapon in order to do more damage than I'm currently doing?

There actually is.

[mystafyi]

Is there a special technique that I should be using when I swing the weapon in order to do more damage than I'm currently doing?

keep your elbow up. head slightly left. yes.... now try ;)

[Charononus]

Wow this thread is still going, well I don't have an esos yet but here's the deal, it breaks no dr absolutely no dr, yes you can twist in something but then you lose build power to dps from not twisting a dps twist. Yes an arti can cast weapons of good, but then you don't get deadly weapons. As far as I'm concerned cleaver is vendor trash to an eaga, or an esos because it does one thing well killing trash, that makes it along the same lines as a pre nerf terror imo.

[Snapdragoon]

please dont yell at me but i ran through some math and wanted to post it in case im missing something

barbarian 18 - fighter 2 - dreadnought 5

improved crit, frenzy crit bonus +3 19-20, dreadnought crit +1 for esos, +2 for cleaver, overwhelming crit +1 19-20


60 hits with base damage of 40

Esos = 5d6 (3.5x5) +10 15-18x3 19-20x8
base damage is 3.5x5=17.5 + 10 + 40 =67.5
60 hits = 42 normal hits + 12x3 crits + 6x8 crits
42 normal = 67.5x42=2835
12x3 crits = 67.5x3=202.5x12=2430
6x8 crits = 67.5x8=540x6=3240

damage over 60 hits with esos = 8505

Cleaver = 5d8 (4.5x5) +7 19-20x9 +2d8 (hemorage) +6% (doublestrike)
base damage is 4.5x5=22.5 + 7 + 40 = 69.5
60 hits = 54 normal hits + 6x9 crits + 60 effect hits (9 average per hit hemorage) +6%
54 normal = 69.5x54=3753
6x9 crits = 69.5x9=625.5x6=3753
60 effect hit =9x60=540

damage over 60 hits with cleaver = 8046 +6% doublestrike (x0.06) =8529


ESOS = 8505
Cleaver = 8529


if i missed something please dont be mad and point it out, not trying to say one is better then another just providing math with all steps layed out so that if there are errors they can be found and corrected.

[good_ole_corwin]

please dont yell at me but i ran through some math and wanted to post it in case im missing something

barbarian 18 - fighter 2 - dreadnought 5

improved crit, frenzy crit bonus +3 19-20, dreadnought crit +1 for esos, +2 for cleaver, overwhelming crit +1 19-20


60 hits with base damage of 40

Esos = 5d6 (3.5x5) +10 15-18x3 19-20x8
base damage is 3.5x5=17.5 + 10 + 40 =67.5
60 hits = 42 normal hits + 12x3 crits + 6x8 crits
42 normal = 67.5x42=2835
12x3 crits = 67.5x3=202.5x12=2430
6x8 crits = 67.5x8=540x6=3240

damage over 60 hits with esos = 8505

Cleaver = 5d8 (4.5x5) +7 19-20x9 +2d8 (hemorage) +6% (doublestrike)
base damage is 4.5x5=22.5 + 7 + 40 = 69.5
60 hits = 54 normal hits + 6x9 crits + 60 effect hits (9 average per hit hemorage) +6%
54 normal = 69.5x54=3753
6x9 crits = 69.5x9=625.5x6=3753
60 effect hit =9x60=540

damage over 60 hits with cleaver = 8046 +6% doublestrike (x0.06) =8529


ESOS = 8505
Cleaver = 8529


if i missed something please dont be mad and point it out, not trying to say one is better then another just providing math with all steps layed out so that if there are errors they can be found and corrected.

If the crit profiles after EDs and feats are correct (I dont play a melee and dont have the time to look through it all atm, sorry), then you havent missed anything. The thing is that the higher the base dmg and seeker, the better eSoS gets and eventually pulls ahead. Using your figures, with 40 base damage but adding a conservative +6 seeker, the 60 hits (why the heck not just 20? Makes no difference in the comparison) it changes into

eSoS = 9009
Cleaver = 8872

And thats using a scenario still very favourable to the Cleaver - 40 base dmg is like 50 STR with no PA enhancements, isnt it? And +6 seeker is also low given all the new goodies. Not to mention you can get non-stacking doublestrike bonuses someplace else which will again favour the eSoS...

[Dagolar]

Is there a special technique that I should be using when I swing the weapon in order to do more damage than I'm currently doing?

keep your elbow up. head slightly left. yes.... now try ;)

Oh, wait! No, a little lower.. yeaaaahh, that's the spot.

Okay, now switch in your ESoS and swing.

[Nephilia]

Educate me.

*HOW* do I use the Cleaver in order to get the most benefit from it? Is there a special technique that I should be using when I swing the weapon in order to do more damage than I'm currently doing?

Use it to spread butter and jam on your toast!
Best way to use it ever :3

[Wraith_Sarevok]

A few simple facts that defeat this thread:


- Cleaver doesn't have any slots and doesn't break any DR. This can only be fixed by being a Paladin 20 with Capstone, taking the Unyielding Sentinel ED, twisting in Cold Iron from the Fury ED, or asking an Artie to buff you. Even then... most builds will never be able to break dual DR.

- ESoS breaks Adamantine and has 1 red slot. Slotting it with Good will allow it to break almost all DR in the game except for a few raidbosses and rare monsters. Slotting it with a Devil Assault crystal, twisting in Cold Iron from the Fury ED, or asking an Artie to buff you will solve that problem.


- Cleaver requires that you wear the full set in order for it to be competitive with the other top two-handers... effectively eating your trinket slot. You can't switch trinkets without losing significant DPS.

- ESoS doesn't eat your trinket slot. The damage is built-in and you can add even more by wearing a powerful trinket.


- Cleaver requires that you take the Legendary Dreadnought ED (making problem #1 even harder to solve) and the Headman's Chop trait in order for it to be competitive with the other top two-handers... effectively locking your character into this build. Cleaver has a 20/x3 base crit profile just like any other greataxe. It crits harder than the ESoS, but it crits much less often... resulting in lower average DPS especially when the enemy has high fort.

- ESoS doesn't lock your character's build. ESoS has an amazing 18-20/x3 base crit profile. It crits less hard than a greataxe with Headman's Chop, but it crits much more often... raising average DPS and scaling better with STR/damage bonuses. Because of this, it can easily fit into any build and defeat any other top two-hander without having to take Headman's Chop.


I feel that it's my need to save as many people from the OP as I can.

[brzytki]

60 hits with base damage of 40
Seriously, why 60 hits? The base d20 seems more intuitive. And why 40 damage mod only?

Otherwise, seems to be correct.

But. You don't account for glancing blows, you don't include any seeker modifier nor any extra damage from items. But even those coupled with a really low damage modifier shows Cleaver as only slightly better.

Here is a comparison if you want to know how low your damage mod has to be to get better DPS than ESoS. Not counting glancings or seeker but it can be easily added near the end, also you can get doublestrike on other piece of gear so ESoS is not left without it but i'll leave it out.

ESoS
2-14 x1
15-18 x3
19-20 x8
base = 5d6 + 10 + y

(1) 13b + 3*4b + 8*2b = 41b = 41*5*3,5 + 410 + 41y = 1127,5 + 41y

Cleaver
2-18 x1
19-20 x9
base = 5d8 + 7 + y
effect = 2d8
doublestrike = 6%

(2) 1,06(17b + 9*2b + 19*9) = 1,06(35b + 171) = 1,06(35*5*4,5 + 245 + 35y + 171) = 1,06(35y + 1203,5) = 1275,71 + 37,1y

Solving so that (1) < (2) gives us:
1127,5 + 41y < 1275,71 + 37,1y
3,9y < 148,21
y < 38

So, if your damage modifier on your fresh off the boat no-gear barb is lower than 38, Cleaver is better for you.

Adding seeker 6 is going to look like:
1127,5 + 41y + 28*6 < 1275,71 + 37,1y + 18*6
3,9x < 88,21
x < 22,62

As you can see your damage modifier has to be lower than 23 when you count in a very medicore nowadays seeker 6.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

So apparently then Wraith is also wrong too? Wraith Saverok has been here for a quite a while and he seems to be a numbers guru as well. Now I do my own numbers but I like to confirm with other people's numbers. We have two people getting the same numbers, all you have is hearsay,unsubstantiated opinion, and slander.

Lol, no I wouldn't say I'm a "numbers guru."

I tend to go more by experience. I haven't really been here all that long... only since Dreaming Dark came out. Most of the stuff I learned was from reading Shade's Max DPS Barbarian Guides and from playing the game myself.

There's a bunch of other players that have 3 years more experience than I do and I'm still learning from them. Sometimes I make mistakes, yeah. I hate doing that because I'm sort of like a perfectionist, but everyone does it once in a while. We're all human.

Still, I'm very sure about which weapon I think is "the best" and I refer you to my last post up this page.

[raknar_the_wolf]

The only people who have done any math is me everyone else is on some "I've wasted a ton of my life grinding for esos" QQ. EAGA for DR/fort raid...cleaver for trash without DR. it's that simple and both weapons in their respective roles will trump the esos.

No, it doesn't. While the cleaver will produce bigger numbers on a crit, that means nothing when the eSoS is critting 3 times as often. Unlike most of the people here, I understand where you are coming from, but you reached the wrong conclusion. While those 3x crits on the eSoS do bring the numbers on an average crit down, it brings the numbers on an average HIT higher, because while the eSoS is getting 3x, the cleaver is only getting 1x. A 3x crit is better than no crit at all. Why you cannot get this is baffling.

Stated another way. 4.55x is approximately half of 9x. This is true. But 4.55x is 4.55 times HIGHER than 1x.

[Ninety]

If you use a 40 str rogue instead of a 80 str barb, cleaver wins.

why you do something like that is a completely different matter.

[good_ole_corwin]

If you use a 40 str rogue instead of a 80 str barb, cleaver wins.

why you do something like that is a completely different matter.

maybe its meant for all those halfling palladins? :)

[raknar_the_wolf]

maybe its meant for all those halfling palladins? :)

Paladins, regardless of race, benefit more from frequent crits than from higher base damage. eSoS still wins.

[Alkindus]

Thanks for this awesome post. Very rarely does a thread that can keep giving such laughs stay on the forums. Keep doing what you're doing, and we'll keep laughing at you.

[djl]

If the crit profiles after EDs and feats are correct (I dont play a melee and dont have the time to look through it all atm, sorry), then you havent missed anything. The thing is that the higher the base dmg and seeker, the better eSoS gets and eventually pulls ahead. Using your figures, with 40 base damage but adding a conservative +6 seeker, the 60 hits (why the heck not just 20? Makes no difference in the comparison) it changes into

eSoS = 9009
Cleaver = 8872

And thats using a scenario still very favourable to the Cleaver - 40 base dmg is like 50 STR with no PA enhancements, isnt it? And +6 seeker is also low given all the new goodies. Not to mention you can get non-stacking doublestrike bonuses someplace else which will again favour the eSoS...

Math aside, one thing that is not being accounted for here is that the eSoS has a slot. Most people will slot it with a good gem because it seems that DR/good is the most prevalent type of DR in the game. The Cleaver doesn't have a slot, so it will never break any kind of DR unless you get an Arty buff or you use specific destiny enhancements. For this reason alone, the EAGA is probably better in most situations than Cleaver because it breaks almost all types of DR. And on Epic Elite, DR can be upwards of 40 points of damage. With a good-slotted Esos, if you party with an Artificer you can still break any type of DR.

[Snapdragoon]

okay glad to know my math was correct.

i did low extra damage because i wanted to account for joe shmow and his less then effective str. and yeah forogt a seeker item, was just doind weapon vs weapon.

and i agree both stock cant break DR and esos is ahead on that one.

but i think its fair to say that per the grind required cleaver is decent until the stars align and you find yourself with an esos, and those who have one i dont think will be replacing it anytime soon

^_^