Wrap-Up: You shouldn't grind the Raid.

[Boromirs]

In terms of the length of the raid vs. the subpar items available, this raid should not be grinded. (unless of course you like the raid for purely entertainment value...)

Some contenders that people may or may not want to grind for.

#1 Sireh- Some wierd twisted acro build will love it. Apparently, it's still a tad shy inferior to everyone's old hat weapon eSoS.

#2 Morhn - Warhammer, it's crazy awesome, like wielding two eSoS in each hand. Too bad it doesn't bypass DR (no epic slots Im afraid).

#3 Cleaver - It's kinda worthless even compared to the epic Antique (can't really bypass DR).

#4 That dagger thingy - I forgot it's name but I heard great things about it.

#5 Lolth - It's done pretty well. Kudos to the art/dev team for making a mega huge boss monster. You may want to grind the raid a few times just for her.

--- Overall, the loot is on level to subpar to many epic loot thats already out there. And considering that much of these can't be used until lev 23, it was disappointing.

[Ryiah]

#2 Morhn - Warhammer, it's crazy awesome, like wielding two eSoS in each hand. Too bad it doesn't bypass DR (no epic slots Im afraid).

Isn't that what Artificer is for? Almost feels like the absence of slots is an attempt to make them more desirable. :p

[Tembyr]

Regarding these posts and your other other posts I've recently read, I cannot help thinking you have a slight tendency so regard everything in comparison with the epic Sword of Shadows. There might be people who think the raid loot is worthwhile, because not everyone a) has an eSos or b) wants to use the eSos.

[Boromirs]

Regarding these posts and your other other posts I've recently read, I cannot help thinking you have a slight tendency so regard everything in comparison with the epic Sword of Shadows. There might be people who think the raid loot is worthwhile, because not everyone a) has an eSos or b) wants to use the eSos.

This is true but old timers and power gamers tend to look at things from a purely power perspective. Why should I grind for inferior weapons especially unusable until 23 rd level when I got the best one right here at 20th.
And contrary to popular belief esos is not too hard to acquire especially if u have a dedicated crew willing to pass u seals/shards

[Chette]

The bow is amazing, easily the SOS equivalent for archers. The other weapons have situational usefulness for melees. There is nothing for any caster though, unless you want a swap item that will give you some more SP before you shrine.

I don't really see this raid being run much though, once the fun of beating new content wears off.

[Ape_Man]

The bow is amazing, easily the SOS equivalent for archers. The other weapons have situational usefulness for melees. There is nothing for any caster though, unless you want a swap item that will give you some more SP before you shrine.

I don't really see this raid being run much though, once the fun of beating new content wears off.

yeah, now if only archers to-hit weren't 31 flavors of broken right now . . .

Agreed, i don't see this raid getting run much anymore. I actually enjoyed the raid, found it to be fun though I'll admit we get lucky in a non-bugged instance. but something that's fun and takes a long time gets run once or twice tops in a game as grindtastic as DDO.

[Tid12]

Don't the new green and dragonscale require 5 heoric commendation? If so, lots of caster will want the green one and some melee will grind for the red one.

If not, I'll still run it cause I had a blast last time.

[rimble]

But I have to get my handwraps!

[samthedagger]

I am extremely disappointed that our very first truly epic raid is not loot worthy. I have not run it yet but I have seen the gear that comes out of it and it makes me sad.

[EbbOnFire]

This is true but old timers and power gamers tend to look at things from a purely power perspective. Why should I grind for inferior weapons especially unusable until 23 rd level when I got the best one right here at 20th.
And contrary to popular belief esos is not too hard to acquire especially if u have a dedicated crew willing to pass u seals/shards

I don't have an eSOS (or even an SOS), nor have I run the new raid. But assuming that what you're saying is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), it seems that the Devs have exactly two routes to take in order to amend the situation:

- Change all of the new items that they just developed in such a way that they become more powerful than the eSOS, even if it is only situationally.
- Reduce the power of the eSOS.

Which do you think is a more likely approach for them to take, assuming that they see the situation the same as you do and would like to correct it?

[gerardIII]

And contrary to popular belief esos is not too hard to acquire especially if u have a dedicated crew willing to pass u seals/shards
Yes I have 10 homonculi following me around epic VoN to pass me their seals and shards, it's common knowledge that most people play this way.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't have an eSOS (or even an SOS), nor have I run the new raid. But assuming that what you're saying is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), it seems that the Devs have exactly two routes to take in order to amend the situation:

- Change all of the new items that they just developed in such a way that they become more powerful than the eSOS, even if it is only situationally.
- Reduce the power of the eSOS.

Which do you think is a more likely approach for them to take, assuming that they see the situation the same as you do and would like to correct it?
The problem is that there isn't much they could do to nerf the ESoS at this point. The base damage and +10 enhancement bonus are really excellent, but its the crit profile, the same one as on the base item at level 10, that makes it so ridiculously powerful. Our damage bonuses continue to rise, and the crit profile magnifies them.

At high enough base damage values, the regular, level 10, SoS is better than a Lit II falchion (I think it pushes past at around +70 or so, which isn't difficult to achieve on barbarians and fighters).

If they reduce the base damage and/or enhancement bonus, all that happens is people stop bothering trying to upgrade it and just use the base weapon. There are a few weapons that beat the base weapon even if you have a rather large base damage, but not by a ton.

[Ivan_Milic]

Its new raid,takes time to learn,I remember lob,people were doing it in 1h,now 30 min or less pugs.

[redspecter23]

A raid needs to hit a few major "incentive points" in order to be popular.

1. Fun raid/mechanics.
Many people enjoy running LoB or Shroud or even ToD because they find the raid fun and not necessarily because there is any loot they need. Not everyone of course, but these raids have their fans and there are enough of them to keep the raids run on a regular basis, even if only within guild or channels in the case of LoB. (example of failure: Titan)

2. Good and varied loot
Reaver is still run for Madstone Boots, even if the raid itself is a snore and people have done it a million times. Shroud is still run for materials. The gear is just that good, especially for TR's (example of failure: Titan. gloves and perhaps belt only. the ring just got obsoleted)

3. A reason to run after you have your loot
Reaver and Abbot can both be run for seals. Shroud for materials and epics for ingredients for upgrades. In the case of ToD, VoN and DQ, you even have a shot at +4 tomes for extra incentive. (example of failure: Titan, yet again. No epic, no upgrades with seals, no +4 tomes)

Let's compare the above criteria to Caught in the Web

1. Is it fun? That's subjective, but my guess is that a long escort quest isn't something players will run strictly for fun factor. There will be some, but will it be enough on it's own to keep this raid run on a regular basis? I'm guessing, no.

2. Good loot? Well some of it is great like the bow. Some looks a bit interesting like the shortsword or polearm, but it's all weapons. No variety. If you don't need a weapon from that raid, you have very little reason to be there. Possibly for commendations for armor upgrades, but that won't keep you there long.

3. A reason to run after you have your loot? Commendations aside, once you have your loot, there is no gear incentive to be there. +4 tomes could possibly drop, but they also drop in epic elite end chests so that's not a reason on it's own. If I have all the loot I want from there, I have no incentive to go back on that toon. I can get another toon, but it's disincentive to bring divines or arcanes for instance if you have what you need already.

So CitW fails on all 3 counts in my opinion (subjective of course) so if it stays as it is, I have no reason to even go in, let alone run it multiple times. I'm not whining here, just stating that I have no motivation to run it unless my guildies need to fill up a group or I need the favor.

[dynahawk]

I would imagine a slight chance at +5 tomes in the raid or in the 20th list would help the longevity of this raid.

[Boromirs]

Although many people believe I'm trolling as per the epic feedback I'm getting. I'm not . Criticism helps build a great game or anything for that matter. Turbine made a great expansion but they also made some critical errors especially on loot. I think this needs to be made apparent.

[count_spicoli]

Really the main reason to run any raid is loot. Doesnt matter if its fun or terrible. You could take the funnest raid and if it doesnt drop good loot noone will run it. You could take the worst raid and if the loot is good people will run it. The idea of being an adventurer is treasure hunting. Tryong to find that one peice of rare loot that barely anyone has achieved. They have already ruined 2 raids with this last update. Tod and reavers have lost alot of luster with recent changes and pretty much the only raid left is shroud and maybe lord of blades but hardly anybody runs they

[lugoman]

And contrary to popular belief esos is not too hard to acquire especially if u have a dedicated crew willing to pass u seals/shards

Lol, a big if.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Lol, a big if.

No kidding. I've basically given up on ever getting my first shard. I have yet to find such a mythical group willing to pass me one let alone put one for roll, guild run or otherwise.

[Superspeed_Hi5]

But I have to get my handwraps!

Are there Handwraps from the Raid? I have not heard anything about them. All info I can find about drops from the raid seem to indicate the usual.

Great Axe? Check
Short Sword? Check
Bow? Check
Quarterstaff? Check x2
Hammer? Check
Bastard Sword? Check
Rapier? Check
Dagger? Check
Long Sword? You better believe thats a check
Handwraps? Hey Monk use the shortswords. Oh you're not a Ninja? Sucks to be you then.

[rimble]

Handwraps? Hey Monk use the shortswords. Oh you're not a Ninja? Sucks to be you then.

It does appear to do Light damage, which might be uniquely useful in a few situations--it might even bypass all DR because of that, but for most situations I'll stick to my handwraps, even as a Ninja Spy.

[Chai]

I don't have an eSOS (or even an SOS), nor have I run the new raid. But assuming that what you're saying is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), it seems that the Devs have exactly two routes to take in order to amend the situation:

- Change all of the new items that they just developed in such a way that they become more powerful than the eSOS, even if it is only situationally.
- Reduce the power of the eSOS.

Which do you think is a more likely approach for them to take, assuming that they see the situation the same as you do and would like to correct it?

The third option.

Stop making raids that only drop weapon slot items and start creating more top end raid loot for other gear slots again.

They have an opportunity to even augment the sets even more.

Set bonus if all 3 items from the set are worn for PDK, villagers, sruids, warmages, clerics etc...

Raid item could have a set bonus augment kind of like the docents do, that allows you to make it take the place of one of the three items in any of the gear sets.

Example: This way a combat oriented bard who likes two items out of the PDK set but cant wear plate armor for the third slot, can slot an item from the raid to be the third item in the PDK set.

[archora]

OP how do you go from OMG teh uberz axe/staff > everything ever posts to the new raid loot sucks? strange indeed.

[BlackSteel]

the repeater looks very tastey with the x3 crit. I'm apprehensive on the 20% alacrity until I manage to loot one and do some testing; as attack speed bonuses are all pretty disappointing on repeaters. But the base damage + crit + super bleed damage alone make it top contender for raw DPS on repeaters. a few extra volleys/minute would just be gravy.

thats if u dont mind giving up the utility of an alch. weapon

[threefeetunder]

the repeater looks very tastey with the x3 crit. I'm apprehensive on the 20% alacrity until I manage to loot one and do some testing; as attack speed bonuses are all pretty disappointing on repeaters. But the base damage + crit + super bleed damage alone make it top contender for raw DPS on repeaters. a few extra volleys/minute would just be gravy.

thats if u dont mind giving up the utility of an alch. weapon

What repeater? :O

[sirgog]

So funny seeing all your posts on the raid loot.


OMG this item is better than the eSOS!!!!
OMG don't grind the raid, the loot is teh suxor!!!
It's official, Cleaver > eSOS!!!
Oh wait, Cleaver is not greater than eSOS after all!!!


Not a one of those threads has actually had a real analysis that considers enemy fortification, enemy armor class, glancing blows or even attempts to make rough approximations.

[ShadowFlash]

The third option.

Stop making raids that only drop weapon slot items and start creating more top end raid loot for other gear slots again.

They have an opportunity to even augment the sets even more.

Set bonus if all 3 items from the set are worn for PDK, villagers, sruids, warmages, clerics etc...

Raid item could have a set bonus augment kind of like the docents do, that allows you to make it take the place of one of the three items in any of the gear sets.

Example: This way a combat oriented bard who likes two items out of the PDK set but cant wear plate armor for the third slot, can slot an item from the raid to be the third item in the PDK set.

My God I gotta agree with this one...quite the awesome idea...vehemently disagree with you in the divine threads, but I gotta admit this is a good idea...and a perfect example.

ShadowFlash

[sephiroth1084]

So funny seeing all your posts on the raid loot.


OMG this item is better than the eSOS!!!!
OMG don't grind the raid, the loot is teh suxor!!!
It's official, Cleaver > eSOS!!!
Oh wait, Cleaver is not greater than eSOS after all!!!


Not a one of those threads has actually had a real analysis that considers enemy fortification, enemy armor class, glancing blows or even attempts to make rough approximations.
You're giving too much credit, Numot. Not a one of those posts has had any real information, logic, or reading comprehension either.

[ShadowFlash]

You're giving too much credit, Numot. Not a one of those posts has had any real information, logic, or reading comprehension either.


/agreed
I saw an intelligent post by chai..posted...checked my UserCP...realized what thread I posted in...regret :(

Watching this nightmare multiple thread progression is like watching my kids christmas morning..each and every present they open is da bestest thing evar....until the next one...then the next...makes me smile, and want to pat someone on the head..lol

ShadowFlash

[fco-karatekid]

Although many people believe I'm trolling as per the epic feedback I'm getting. I'm not . Criticism helps build a great game or anything for that matter. Turbine made a great expansion but they also made some critical errors especially on loot. I think this needs to be made apparent.

As someone who's not yet run the raid, I find your breakdown interesting. You've said a ton of times your feedback is subjective; so anyone getting uptight is simply choosing to be obtuse. I still have to run it for the "experience new content" thing (choosing to focus on a new character at the moment), but I now know not to get TOO excited.

[Ew_vastano]

i have run the raid and after the great job turbine did on the expansion, to cobble together such a total wast of time is plainly put appaling

blue bars buy pots from the store (your gonna need em) so you can help the melee's get there weps nothing for you but hey ho,

stand on the edge swinging at a massive pair of boobs not sure if your hitting em take 1 step forward ding nother pot from ddo store sold