Fatesinger Harmonic Resonance Change

[orakio]

Just noticed yesterday while playing after U14.1 that the Harmonic Resonance tier2 passive has changed.

Harmonic Resonance Passive from Fatesinger no longer applies to missile attacks. New U14.1 description only states "your melee attacks" while pre patch 1 it said "Your melee and missile attacks have a 10% chance per hit of building a stacking resonance in your enemies."

Is this working as intended, as it isn't listed in release notes

[Breca]

As intended. Reign and Harmonic Resonance switched their trigger. Reign now gets activated on missile and unarmed (and melee, as always). Harmonic Resonance on melee only.
Breca

[Cyr]

As intended. Reign and Harmonic Resonance switched their trigger. Reign now gets activated on missile and unarmed (and melee, as always). Harmonic Resonance on melee only.
Breca

Why?

Is there some belief among the developers that ranged bards are too powerful?

[Havok.cry]

Why?

Is there some belief among the developers that ranged bards are too powerful?

Didnt ya know, ranged is OP. (And yes that is sarcasm).

[Forgeborn]

Why?

Is there some belief among the developers that ranged bards are too powerful?

as reign didn't work on ranged before, and adds 22D20 on a vorpal shot, I'd actually say they 'buffed' ranged bards with that change instead of nerfing them, sure, you don't get the resonance anymore, but that didn't do much anyways as there's no decent sonic dot (the song hit what, 70 points of damage every few seconds, on one target?).

[Cyr]

as reign didn't work on ranged before, and adds 22D20 on a vorpal shot, I'd actually say they 'buffed' ranged bards with that change instead of nerfing them, sure, you don't get the resonance anymore, but that didn't do much anyways as there's no decent sonic dot (the song hit what, 70 points of damage every few seconds, on one target?).

Yes, reign is better then harmonic resonance.

Yet, it was still a decison to not apply harmonic resonance to ranged.

You might have a point if reign only applied to range, but it does not.

[Breca]

Didnt ya know, ranged is OP. (And yes that is sarcasm).

It was just a balancing decision. Harmonic Resonance triggers on any melee attack, whether unarmed or with weapon. Reign now triggers on any attack, whereas before, it was melee-only. Tailwind triggers on missile only. Taken together, no attack type will trigger on all of these at once.

Breca

[Forgeborn]

You might have a point if reign only applied to range, but it does not.

comparable to how it was (reign only working on melee, harmonic on both), to how it is now (reign on both, harmonic only on melee), ranged comes out on top, even though they removed the resonance stacks from ranged. It is still a buff if you compare it to how it was.

as it stands the ranged damage is up (due to the +22D20 damage every vorpal), and melee damage remains the same (as they already had reign + resonance).

granted, I am of the opinion resonance, and reign, should apply equally to melee, unarmed, and ranged.

[junta74]

My plans for my Bardcher have changed dramatically with this change. I thought after manyshot, a group would be very susceptible to a greater shout and dirge. Time to look at the tree and start planning all over again.

[orakio]

It was just a balancing decision. Harmonic Resonance triggers on any melee attack, whether unarmed or with weapon. Reign now triggers on any attack, whereas before, it was melee-only. Tailwind triggers on missile only. Taken together, no attack type will trigger on all of these at once.

Breca

Hmm, fair enough I guess. The wording on Reign didn't indicate that it was melee only so I never knew there was a design intent for ranged to not stack the damage abilities. It makes more sense now, just a bit dissapointing.

[Havok.cry]

It was just a balancing decision. Harmonic Resonance triggers on any melee attack, whether unarmed or with weapon. Reign now triggers on any attack, whereas before, it was melee-only. Tailwind triggers on missile only. Taken together, no attack type will trigger on all of these at once.

Breca

Cool, thanks for explaining. I was going to assume it was yet another thing that had problems proccing on ranged attacks so you switched it. Nice to be wrong about that.

[Cyr]

granted, I am of the opinion resonance, and reign, should apply equally to melee, unarmed, and ranged.

As am I.

With that in place there might be enough of an incentive to actually be a fatesinger as a ranged bard. With it removed it is very clear to me that it is a twist of reign, twist of tailwind, and shiradi for the win.

[BananaHat]

I'm a little saddened as the reply you sent me earlier implied harmonic resonance would work with ranged. It is unfortunate that the passive ability does not apply to all combat types, ranged characters will have to divert some points in the tree for Tailwind.

Melee build means everyone can do more sonic damage (yay for Shiradi Champion passives)
Ranged build means other ranged characters can do more base damage (yay for Shiradi Champion again!)

You should just make Reign passive since it applies to everyone and then you can choose in the tree whether to get the ranged or melee boost. Probably cheese off everyone who wants to twist it though.

[Breca]

I can understand some of these grievances and disappointments on Harmonic Resonance losing its missile proc. And at the risk of starting a @!%#storm, I could go so far as to say that Harmonic Resonance and Reign had better synergies the way they were before. If you could proc Harmonic Resonance as a ranged bard, you'd be able to stand off, proc some sonic vulnerability, and then Shout, Dirge, etc. The freedom to stand off while doing so is *nice*, thematic, practical, and happens to be the way things used to be on Lamannia.

It also used to be that Reign only procced on melee. The change to that originally went in to give ranged Fatesingers something more viscerally exciting (a thunderclap vs a dusting of sonic vulnerability), and then Harmonic Resonance got sacrificed on the Altar of Game Balance.

All in all, and after having had some time to let these ability combos digest, I tend to think that the Harmonic/Reign relationship seems to have shared better synergies before (except for the neglect of Unarmed attacks). Now that we're out of beta, it's more grating on nerves to change things mid-stream, even if it would be better for the game.

So we can put this before you all and solicit some opinions.

Option 1: Leave things as they are now.

Option 2:
Harmonic Resonance procs on melee, missile, and Unarmed (don't forget!)
Reign procs on Unarmed and melee only.


Breca

[junta74]

I can understand some of these grievances and disappointments on Harmonic Resonance losing its missile proc. And at the risk of starting a @!%#storm, I could go so far as to say that Harmonic Resonance and Reign had better synergies the way they were before. If you could proc Harmonic Resonance as a ranged bard, you'd be able to stand off, proc some sonic vulnerability, and then Shout, Dirge, etc. The freedom to stand off while doing so is *nice*, thematic, practical, and happens to be the way things used to be on Lamannia.

It also used to be that Reign only procced on melee. The change to that originally went in to give ranged Fatesingers something more viscerally exciting (a thunderclap vs a dusting of sonic vulnerability), and then Harmonic Resonance got sacrificed on the Altar of Game Balance.

All in all, and after having had some time to let these ability combos digest, I tend to think that the Harmonic/Reign relationship seems to have shared better synergies before (except for the neglect of Unarmed attacks). Now that we're out of beta, it's more grating on nerves to change things mid-stream, even if it would be better for the game.

So we can put this before you all and solicit some opinions.

Option 1: Leave things as they are now.

Option 2:
Harmonic Resonance procs on melee, missile, and Unarmed (don't forget!)
Reign procs on Unarmed and melee only.


Breca


Thanks for the reply!

If I had my way I would choose option 2. As harmonic resonance is an auto grant ability and Reign is not, those people with ranged toons can choose the Tailwind rout and those on melee could forgo Tailwind for Reign and they would both get the most use out of the auto grant ability.

It also would make the new bow from the raid much more interesting.

And thank you again for listening to the forum, tweaking for balance and for playability, and making this a great ED.

[legendlore]

Game Balance. /../ better for the game.


I agree, balance would be good for the game. This game is however very far from balanced and starting with balancing the destiny for what is arguably the weakest class currently in the game (bard) and what is arguably the weakest dps option currently in the game (ranged) isn't the way to go. There are far bigger fish to fry.

It seems that when you (as in the development team) speak of game balance it is in relation to how the class was before, not in relation to other classes. This game will never be balanced with that viewpoint.

I had a glimpse of hope for some steps towards class balance when the instant kill debate was active, sadly it was quickly shot down by a community that has grown a costumed to casters as easy farming characters, unwilling to let go of the power and ease of play.

As a related topic (since you're the bard developer as I understand it) how could epic wards be left in the game, bard almost exclusively have charming spells (and all of their mass spells are charms) as offensive spells, now they can't use them in content above level 20. How can charming be deemed worse than the ability to instantly kill enemies?)

[Vengeance777]

Something needs to be able to be twisted into and proc on ranged without a bard past life.

I like reign being able to proc on all attacks. I can twist into it on ranged toons without needing a bard past life.

If reign looses its ability to work on ranged please consider changing tailwind to an ability that works without inspired courage.

[FrostBeard]

You probably need to test a melee and a ranged with points in both destiny's and see if the numbers come up the same.


I Favor Option 2 - Have Harmonic trigger on all types.
Ranged do have the distance advantage.
But it takes longer to land attacks than melee and there is obstacles and often movement in combat.

There isn't to many bards that throw sonic spells around. so spell damage is pretty irrelevant.
I found the abilities to be cool and a lot of fun on a melee bard. regardless of the damage.
Its more enjoyable than standing there singing song after song to do damage.
Sirens Song is big damage but it gets boring quickly.

Side Note: Would Love for the long 30 sec cool down on Inspire Excellence to be removed if possible.
Or At Least have the cool down not shared with Inspire Courage.
Having a hard time keeping up all the songs.

[wayreth602]

I like the idea of option 2.

As stated above, it works better. Why have something auto-granted that you can only stack with one choice when with option 2 you can choose what you want to stack with it.

[Missing_Minds]

It was just a balancing decision. Harmonic Resonance triggers on any melee attack, whether unarmed or with weapon. Reign now triggers on any attack, whereas before, it was melee-only. Tailwind triggers on missile only. Taken together, no attack type will trigger on all of these at once.

Breca

You also have to pay for Tailwind and Reign, where Harmonic Resonance is a freebie.

Personally I would say, that Reign works with melee (including unarmed) and missile. How allowing Reign to work on missiles going to be over powered? Can you answer that?

But HR has only a 10% chance with melee/unarmed and 25% chance with missile. Why? Look at the rate of attack between the two.

[cru121]

Side Note: Would Love for the long 30 sec cool down on Inspire Excellence to be removed if possible. Or At Least have the cool down not shared with Inspire Courage. Having a hard time keeping up all the songs.
This would be very nice!

[Systern]

I prefer option 3 as well, Kind sir.

:D

*option 3 is below, for late comers to the thread.

[Schmoe]

Option #2, especially considering that it is the freebie ability. The freebie should be attractive to everyone.

[meathook2008]

Option 2. As an arty/fatesinger, i am LOVING that resonance stack.... If you change it to melee only, I am definitly going to grind to sharidi Champion. (Though, might still TR my crafter into a bard just because of this destiny

[BananaHat]

FYI, I could never get Harmonic Resonance to work with my repeater on my arti before the change, so ranged was stuck with only tailwind and hence my earlier PM to you.

I would prefer the passive to work with all weapons, as cool as Reign is. However, the difference between tailwind and reign is quite large. I'm sure you have all these numbers, but for the forums...

Reign: 22d20 / 20 is about 11.55 personal damage per hit, subject to resistance and vulnerability from HR.
Tailwind: +6 damage is 6.9 damage a hit on a normal imp. crit longbow or repeater. (Dont forget the slower attack speed versus a typical TWF warchanter!)

So, I guess your calcs assume hitting a second ranged character, which is actually somewhat unlikely in today's environment with ranged not getting nearly the support melee does. (Typical would be Arcane (casting), Divine (casting or melee), Fatesinger, 3 melees or 2 if a trapper is needed, who is probably an assassin) In my own case, my wife loves ranged characters, so I tend to come out even on my Arti with both of us plinking away, but usually nobody is firing with us. Usually you'll have only 2 ranged guys in a raid at most it feels. (Reminds me to try to get an all ranged raid going again...)

I know changes to the powers at this point is highly unlikely, but what if tailwind had an additional personal damage component (like sonic damage on a 20) and Reign had a group buff (like a small doublestrike chance). Not that all powers have to be the same of course, but I figured that would help the party scaling issue.

In general, it just feels like Tailwind is getting screwed vs. Reign because it is a group buff that in most cases only affects yourself.

I wish I had tried out Fatesinger in the closed beta when you were working hard with the community to make it feel right. I would have if the beta hadn't screwed up my arti's enhancements by removing them, so I focused on druids.

Feel free to ignore my rantings, I'm just a little peeved that I have to hoof it over to Shiradi Champion where I will be denied my caster level bonus even though it is the most appropriate ED for a lot of arti's. Yes, I want the fate points and would have come to the arcane sphere eventually. No, I'm not spending $30 to jump over to SC.

[FrostBeard]

yeh sorry i must have misread the info its late.
I Favor Option 2 - Have Harmonic trigger on all types of weapons.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I can understand some of these grievances and disappointments on Harmonic Resonance losing its missile proc. And at the risk of starting a @!%#storm, I could go so far as to say that Harmonic Resonance and Reign had better synergies the way they were before. If you could proc Harmonic Resonance as a ranged bard, you'd be able to stand off, proc some sonic vulnerability, and then Shout, Dirge, etc. The freedom to stand off while doing so is *nice*, thematic, practical, and happens to be the way things used to be on Lamannia.

It also used to be that Reign only procced on melee. The change to that originally went in to give ranged Fatesingers something more viscerally exciting (a thunderclap vs a dusting of sonic vulnerability), and then Harmonic Resonance got sacrificed on the Altar of Game Balance.

All in all, and after having had some time to let these ability combos digest, I tend to think that the Harmonic/Reign relationship seems to have shared better synergies before (except for the neglect of Unarmed attacks). Now that we're out of beta, it's more grating on nerves to change things mid-stream, even if it would be better for the game.

So we can put this before you all and solicit some opinions.

Option 1: Leave things as they are now.

Option 2:
Harmonic Resonance procs on melee, missile, and Unarmed (don't forget!)
Reign procs on Unarmed and melee only.


Breca

Option 2.

I have yet to see a bardcher/bardificer that is considered anywhere close to "OP".

[Cyr]

Option 1: Leave things as they are now.

Option 2:
Harmonic Resonance procs on melee, missile, and Unarmed (don't forget!)
Reign procs on Unarmed and melee only.


Breca

I think both options ignore the basic question..

Do you think ranged bards are OP now? Heck, do you think bards in general are near the top of the power curve?

As I think that is a laughable concept I find both options to be undesirable for balance purposes.

[Kakow]

It was just a balancing decision. Harmonic Resonance triggers on any melee attack, whether unarmed or with weapon. Reign now triggers on any attack, whereas before, it was melee-only. Tailwind triggers on missile only. Taken together, no attack type will trigger on all of these at once.
Breca


I don't like Option 1 or 2. I'd like to have all 3 work together and I don't think it'd be unbalancing. There are no sonic bolt/arrow imbue/infusions, there are no sonic rune arms, and as has been mentioned, cooldowns on the "DPS" songs make any accusations of all 3 working together being overpowered is, in my eyes, crazy.

In a perfect world, my artie would be able to build up a harmonic resonance stack in a target, assuming the X% chance proc'd on every single bolt every single time. After that very short duration debuff was stacked to full, he'd be able to sing a song (while the debuff's ticking down), switch to his cacophony repeater (while the debuff's ticking down), hit endless fusillade (watch the time-wasting spin the crossbow animation while the debuff's ticking down...), and wreak havoc for a few seconds on that target, and maybe I get lucky and roll 20s on every bolt and do a bit more sonic damage, probably enough to kill that target. If I'm REALLY lucky, I may get another target if I've left IPS on (and wanted to sacrifice the damage boost from Archer's Focus).

Also in this perfect world, my artie wouldn't have been beaten to the punch by the superpowered melee EDs doing AoE-style cleaving carnage, or the divine EDs chain exploding mobs with holy powah, or the insta-killing assassins with their DC 50 assassinates, or the Everything is Nothing special monk move, or the plain old palemaster Wailing everything in sight with the press of a single button.

But perhaps you're right, limiting ranged sonic attacks is keeping in the best interests of all concerned. We certainly wouldn't want to see any ranged players having delusions of adequacy.

[BananaHat]

Better idea than my above idea for buffing reign/tailwind would be to add a sonic DoT to harmonic resonance that is removed with fascinate. Have it apply with the HR proc, make it deal 1 sonic damage / 2 seconds, but build upwards of 20 stacks and reset the 10 second duration when reapplied. Full stack (really only on raid bosses) would get to 30 sonic damage (because of vuln) a tick, or 15 dps. So not overpowered, but thematic. Side benefit of revealing who has HR stacks without having to examine.

Either that or give bards a worthwhile sonic DoT.

[Thelvin]

Personally, given the two options I would like to see things stay the same as they are now for several reasons:

1. There are honestly a comparitive few things that boost ranged combat.
Playing a ranged toon isn't about huge numbers (generally we can achieve 50% of the damage that our melee counterparts can) it is about tactics and strategy; finding the correct openings in each encounter.

2. It makes sense that the "thrum" of a bow would cause the extra sonic damage on a bow (no, I don't think this should proc on xbows at all) although the argument could be made that the contact of metal weapons could create the same (tuning fork anyone).

3. Melee have plenty of on-hit effects already, given through numerous items and abilities that ranged characters just drool over.

4. To take reign away from a ranged character to call it balanced is hard to stomach for someone like me.
A monk fatesinger can stack up to 50% sonic vul in no time and has an ample amount of attacks consistently (doesn't need a many shot) for a full effective 27.5d20 whereas a ranged character would be penalized for the sheer fact they are ranged.

Looking at the whole situation though may I suggest reducing Harmonic Reasonance to 5% per stack and allowing both abilities to proc off all attacks. A 1 in 10 chance to add up to 25% sonic vulnerability with a duration of 20 seconds just feels right.

Even if it is coded (with the old code that affected range) so that range adds 5% and melee adds 10% both up to the current Max of 50. You are slowing down the ranged a great deal and still keeping the ability effective.

Either way we are talking epic destinies. IMO, shying away from the pigeon hole abilities would be my preference, as what makes this game great is the options it presents for character creation.

[FunnyCide]

I play an 18 bard/2 artificer who is going to use Fatesinger for her ED. I was very upset when the expac first launched and Reign didn't work with my heavy repeater. Then Breca said that ranged would work with Reign come patch 1. That made me happy since I don't do all that much damage with my heavy repeater even with tailwind active. I don't use the dirge ability because I don't see it was worth while with how I play my bard so Reign is a great option for her to be able to add more to the party than just songs and spot healing oh and minimal buffs (I won't go into how unloved the bard spell choices are).

I seriously don't get how making everything work together would make a ranged bard over powered. Ranged is the weakest combat style of the game. Melee keeps getting buffer more and more while ranged is left in the dust. I hate playing melee characters in this game and I don't like playing casters. That leaves me with the ranged option. So if ranged keeps getting the cold shoulder then maybe my time is done here.

Maybe I should mention this is also an epic ability we're talking about. I don't see why there should be so many limitations. At this point in our character's career they've earned the right to be more powerful. More powerful equals more fun. If I were a MMO company I'd want to make sure that my customers are having FUN.

[Zzevel]

how will the fix be broken?
/sarcasm

[Breca]

Option 3: Missile weapons (re)gain Harmonic Resonance. Everything else stays the same.

Good Hunting!

Breca

[FunnyCide]

Option 3: Missile weapons (re)gain Harmonic Resonance. Everything else stays the same.

Good Hunting!

Breca

Sounds like we're talking now. :)

[orakio]

Option 3: Missile weapons (re)gain Harmonic Resonance. Everything else stays the same.

Good Hunting!

Breca

I would personally vote option 3, if that isn't an option then I vote option 1.

The significantly lower rate of fire of ranged versus melee should easily help mitigate some of the complimentary natures of reign and resonance. As it currently is, in a 1 minute window your twf melee will have SIGNIFICANTLY more chances to proc the reign effect which should easily offset the +6 damage that tailwind provides, at least in my opinion.

I absolutely don't want to see 2 though. Resonance really just doesn't provide enough for non-bard ranged builds to offset everything that reign does in my opinion.

[Scraap]

Option 3: Missile weapons (re)gain Harmonic Resonance. Everything else stays the same.

Good Hunting!

Breca

Jehb and his shotty thank you. (Actually considering coming back to that one for the arty after he's done wandering around a bit to pick up twists.)

[Forgeborn]

Option 3: Missile weapons (re)gain Harmonic Resonance. Everything else stays the same.

Good Hunting!

Breca

very much prefer that one, as it makes both reign and harmonic resonance useful to both melee and ranged. If that one is impossible, then option 1, as reign adds damage instead of a barely usable debuff.

[Missing_Minds]

I think both options ignore the basic question..
Do you think ranged bards are OP now? Heck, do you think bards in general are near the top of the power curve?
As I think that is a laughable concept I find both options to be undesirable for balance purposes.
Wow... rarity struck again. We agree on that one.


Option 3: Missile weapons (re)gain Harmonic Resonance. Everything else stays the same.
Yes please, I'll go with Option 3.

[Breca]

Option 3 is Go
I say again,
Option 3 is Go...

;)
Breca

[Vengeance777]

Option 3 is Go
I say again,
Option 3 is Go...

;)
Breca

Sounds great. Thanks.

[Havok.cry]

Option 3 is Go
I say again,
Option 3 is Go...

;)
Breca

Awesome, thank you.

[orakio]

Option 3 is Go
I say again,
Option 3 is Go...

;)
Breca

You are pretty much the most amazing dev ever. You continued dedication to this ED and involvement with player feedback has been awesome.

[FunnyCide]

Option 3 is Go
I say again,
Option 3 is Go...

;)
Breca

Thank you, Breca! You've made this ranged bard player very happy. :D

[Cyr]

Interesting evolution on this one.

Got to say I like how you roll with feedback Breca and how you are pretty clear about why you are leaning one way or another so people can target their comments a little more to address that.

Like Genasi, you seem to be lacking a little bit on the practical game play stuff, but are doing a stellar job of making up for it by gathering and adjusting to feedback from live players (also like Genasi).

Keep up your back and forth with the player base and keep up the good work.

Cheers,

Cyr

[BananaHat]

...and this ranged arti (and his little dog too!)

Now I just need some nice sonic wraps to make into a collar... you should get Feather of Sun on a named collar that gives a greater shout bark to arti/druid pets.

[Alundaar]

another win for ranged combat .... now if only the martial arts x.y[w] enhancements applied to my bow for my monkarcher

[Schmoe]

Option 3 is Go
I say again,
Option 3 is Go...

;)
Breca

And ranged bards everywhere rejoiced, and annoyed several more enemies slightly more than before!

;)

I like it.

[legendlore]

nice turnout, this will make leveling my artificer in the same destiny as my bard a bit more fun :)

(wish it could have started in shiradi champion though to avoid repetition but that is another discussion).

[junta74]

I will hate to leave this ED to get some more twists.

[Auralana7214]

Option 3 is Go
I say again,
Option 3 is Go...

;)
Breca

I love the interaction between Breca and the players in this thread. Breca, Can you work on stuff for Clerics? Pweeeaaase?

[junta74]

I love the interaction between Breca and the players in this thread. Breca, Can you work on stuff for Clerics? Pweeeaaase?

You can have Breca after the Enhancement pass. We bards need as much help as we can get.

[Missing_Minds]

You can have Breca after the Enhancement pass. We bards need as much help as we can get.
Then you want to keep her. After the enhancment pass, bards really could use a look over.

[junta74]

Then you want to keep her. After the enhancment pass, bards really could use a look over.

My optimistic gut is telling me that the Enhancement pass is going to be GREAT for bards.

(My pessimistic mind on the other hand, has it's own, darker opinion.)

[nibel]

I know Breca already decided on Option 3 (which is good, more power to bardchers and bufficers), but I need to say something:

I'm perfectly fine with Reign being a melee option only IF Tailwind get some kind of buff independent of Inspire Courage (maybe a static always-on 2d6 sonic damage per tier). If you are ranged, you go Tailwind. If you are melee, you go Reign. But Harmonious Resonance, being an innate ability, should work for any fighting style, since the bard keyword is "versatility".

Now this is out of my system, thank you, all developers, for listening feedback for this update. Its amazing how things feel when our opinions help to form the game we play.

[Thelvin]

Breca,

I think I love you :)

[Kakow]

Hey, I didn't get all I wanted, but so what. At least a dev followed the players' input and did something, anything, towards making it more fun for all involved. I can deal with there being a definitive choice between going ranged or melee as long as the innate tier ability affects both choices equally.

Thank you for your professionalism and communication Breca, it's very much appreciated.

[FrostBeard]

Can we get this changed too please

30 sec cool down on Inspire Excellence to be removed if possible.
Or At Least have the cool down not shared with Inspire Courage.

[threefeetunder]

Option 3 is Go
I say again,
Option 3 is Go...

;)
Breca

http://i.gifreply.com/6vg3r.gif