Dear Turbine: Start Over

[Arkat]

nt

[Arkat]

Still think this is the best plan.

[gerardIII]

Still think this is the best plan.

Are you talking about

nt

?

[Vormaerin]

He apparently thinks it would be awesomesauce to shut the game down and open a new DDO2 in a few years.

Why, I have no idea. This also ignores that Turbine doesn't have a license for that, as far as we know. And they just spent a lot of effort to get the "Eberron only" removed from the license for this game.

So its a pretty dumb idea.

[gerardIII]

I want to keep playing DDO.

/not signed

[Arkat]

Are you talking about


?

Apparently you missed the title of the thread.



He apparently thinks it would be awesomesauce to shut the game down and open a new DDO2 in a few years.


No

[Kawai]

Hey...
pssst....
Arkat...

~n...t~

[toaf]

big time.. start over

[dontmater]

yes.. make it so number 1. game to a fail now a days. good ideas too many bugs

[LightBear]

Ok, I'm taking the bait. I have no idea what it means so what does NT stand for?

I'd rather see them expanding deeper into the Forgotten Realms and other settings.
And as long as I can port my character with all of it's history and gear then I'm happy.

[Vormaerin]

nt usually means "no text". Its from the old days when you couldn't send blank messages where the whole content was the title.

[Circon]

I'm guessing "nt" means "no text", and the title is all.

I object strenuously to this.

Starting over is a bad idea. Starting over will not work. Here's why:

-There is no guarantee that you won't make similar mistakes again, from simple typos in the code to long and complicated routines that just don't work.
-There is very little to be gained from starting over on making a computer game. On a physical project, if you break a piece of material or bend it too far out of shape, there may be reason to start over because doing so is irreversible. You can't "un-break" a window or "un-mix" paint. You can, however, "un-break" code, either by editing it or by loading in an earlier version. (Instead of starting over, you might consider demanding better version control and patch coordination.)
-There is a large chance of being unable to learn from your mistakes if you've changed the development team around, and with DDO having been running for over six years, alpha/beta tested another year before that, and in design for some unknown time, plus an ownership change back in 2010, I expect the development team will have changed. Problems in DDO will be "other people's mistakes" to a lot of the developers, not learning experiences. They won't be better at getting it right this time, because they didn't get it wrong last time.
-Starting over loses all patches. You cannot apply patches to a blank codebase. You can't fix Cannith Crafting until you have Cannith Crafting. Starting over throws away accumulated experience and improvement.

The only reason I could see for starting over is if you need to make a change in the deep infrastructure, such as converting the class/enhancement system of character advancement into a practice-based system where you become a better spellcaster by getting more of your kills with spells, and you gain hit points by being hit a lot. Is it this sort of fundamental rewrite you want to start over for?

[JollySwagMan]

nt

No


nt

Yes

[seebs]

What makes it persuasive is how he explains exactly what he means so that no one can misunderstand, and lays out every single argument he can make for his position.

[Saravis]

So long as Turbine is profiting from DDO, they have no reason to kill it.

[Limey]

They aren't going to "start over" so suggesting it or wasting time discussing the pros and cons is a bit silly.

Not going to happen.

[susiedupfer]

I like this game. I do not want to start over.

[thwart]

nt

[slarden]

/not signed. Useless and pointless thread.

[BigSlugger]

You're fooling no one, Arkat!

[Syllph]

nt

This quote is a valid and powerful argument.

I was initially going to disagree; however, after reading such a clear and defined premise as to the current state of the game, I was left to side with the original poster. The argument, nt, may have some opponents but I strongly feel that this change would benefit the community on the whole.

[Loromir]

nt


So...Delete all your toons, empty your shared bank and start over......Problem solved.

[Double_O]

Load "DDO2.0",8,1 S38=0 +++

[arminius]

nt

[Missing_Minds]

here's a thought, and this is crazy. Just start over, nt maybe.

[DanteEnFuego]

yes.. make it so number 1. game to a fail now a days. good ideas too many bugs

How do you pronounce your screen name?

[Arkat]

Trolling usually involves saying something, yet not always

nt

This was not a trolling thread. This thread had two purposes:

1) To let Turbine know how I felt about the game in its current state.

2) I was hoping to foster a discussion on the meirts of starting over with something new rather than the patchwork of band-aids and "fixes" we have now.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

[MrLarone]

This was not a trolling thread. This thread had two purposes:

1) To let Turbine know how I felt about the game in its current state.

2) I was hoping to foster a discussion on the meirts of starting over with something new rather than the patchwork of band-aids and "fixes" we have now.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

1. write a letter to turbine

2. give us an outline of what your thoughts on the pros and cons are and maybe we'll have something to discuss

[9Crows]

Perhaps I was too subtle.

i can think of some adjective and verb combos that would describe the fail better

[countfitz]

Reasons I don't want this:

I'm not VIP. I paid for this game, and own it. I do not want to buy another one. I get VIPs, especially ones that have paid 10x what I did, and do not own a cent of the game, to feel this way. So this is a personal reason. I do not think I would go onto the next version of DDO if I had to reinvest $500. Though it's a worthwhile investment.

The reasons everyone should be able to agree to:

DDO2 would start out with abysmally low amounts of content, as all MMOs start out, and would take 6 years to build up to the amount we have now. I don't see myself wanting to wait another 6 years to be able to not be bored doing the same things, grinding out 6 more years worth on content, or even think I'll be a serious gamer in 6 years (who am I kidding, yeah I will be :) ).

If its the same team, there will be just as many bugs. That is just Turbine.

If you are upset at the changes to AC/BAB to hit and the other mechanics, guess what, they'll be 10 times worse in a new DDO, because they'll build the game from the ground up that way.

It wouldn't be 3.5, which is, IMO, the 2nd best version of DnD (3.0 being the best, but I digress).

It would be 5e, an edition we have yet to see Wizards fully implement which will, if things go like 4e, be a crappy cookiecutter, no variation, boring, copy of WoW that can suck it.

Finally, it would take 3 years to develop this, in which time DDO would fall further to the wayside (already behind LotR) and have no updates, fixes or content added during that time.

So no, don't ask them to start over.

What we need to keep asking is for a full update of pure fixes, streamlines (to crafting, leveling, etc.) and complete the unfinished content and story lines before any brand new ideas are added.

[madmaxhunter]

Reasons I don't want this:

I'm not VIP. I paid for this game, and own it. I do not want to buy another one. I get VIPs, especially ones that have paid 10x what I did, and do not own a cent of the game, to feel this way. So this is a personal reason. I do not think I would go onto the next version of DDO if I had to reinvest $500. Though it's a worthwhile investment.
*snip*

That's awesome! When they shut down the servers, can we come to your house and play DDO? Since you "own" it? Thanks in advance, I'll even bring the Mountain Dew and Taco Bell.

[DarkForte]

nt

[Nibor]

And they just spent a lot of effort to get the "Eberron only" removed from the license for this game.

And they stripped that off of everything...except the name of the forum. Oops.

[Dhalgren]

So did you have any concrete ideas to this end, or are you just stamping your feet?

There is a difference between "subtle" and "oblique".

[adamkatt]

Yes, i would also like the lvl 10 cap and neg xp when you die back as well!

[jambajuicey]

Load "DDO2.0",8,1 S38=0 +++

I'm curious how many actually got this reference! I did! /one sec flipping over the floppy

[jandhaer]

I <3 how the doomsayers never actually leave, just sort of haunt the forums for eternity

(summons a cleric hire)

IM HERE TO EXORCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE THE DEMONS.... this forum is clean

[chrichton]

This was not a trolling thread. This thread had two purposes:

1) To let Turbine know how I felt about the game in its current state.

2) I was hoping to foster a discussion on the meirts of starting over with something new rather than the patchwork of band-aids and "fixes" we have now.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

Yeah - this isn't a troll thread . . . it is a NECRO TROLL thread!!!
(begin undead battle music . . .)

[Yagi]

You know, you wouldnt have to come here and try to initiate drama if you folks would stop letting every perfectly good hate buffet devolve into facebook

[Thrudh]

I was hoping to foster a discussion

Usually that involves saying something.

Blank stares don't usually generate scintillating conversation.

[My2Cents]

That's awesome! When they shut down the servers, can we come to your house and play DDO? Since you "own" it? Thanks in advance, I'll even bring the Mountain Dew and Taco Bell.

Please bring a Taco Bell! They closed the KFC near us and I would love a Taco Bell.

[My2Cents]

I'm curious how many actually got this reference! I did! /one sec flipping over the floppy

ATH1....hand me that cassette tape please, it's right near the acoustic coupler...

[Mikula]

This thread is hilarious! Much better than the last DDO2 thread. When this topic inevitably comes up again in a month or two would you mind being the one to post it? Can't guarantee it will be as funny as this but at least it will have a shot.

/not signed

[Hambo]

Reasons I don't want this:

I'm not VIP. I paid for this game, and own it. I do not want to buy another one. I get VIPs, especially ones that have paid 10x what I did, and do not own a cent of the game, to feel this way. So this is a personal reason. I do not think I would go onto the next version of DDO if I had to reinvest $500. Though it's a worthwhile investment.

The reasons everyone should be able to agree to:

DDO2 would start out with abysmally low amounts of content, as all MMOs start out, and would take 6 years to build up to the amount we have now. I don't see myself wanting to wait another 6 years to be able to not be bored doing the same things, grinding out 6 more years worth on content, or even think I'll be a serious gamer in 6 years (who am I kidding, yeah I will be :) ).

If its the same team, there will be just as many bugs. That is just Turbine.

If you are upset at the changes to AC/BAB to hit and the other mechanics, guess what, they'll be 10 times worse in a new DDO, because they'll build the game from the ground up that way.

It wouldn't be 3.5, which is, IMO, the 2nd best version of DnD (3.0 being the best, but I digress).

It would be 5e, an edition we have yet to see Wizards fully implement which will, if things go like 4e, be a crappy cookiecutter, no variation, boring, copy of WoW that can suck it.

Finally, it would take 3 years to develop this, in which time DDO would fall further to the wayside (already behind LotR) and have no updates, fixes or content added during that time.

So no, don't ask them to start over.

What we need to keep asking is for a full update of pure fixes, streamlines (to crafting, leveling, etc.) and complete the unfinished content and story lines before any brand new ideas are added.

Nobody "owns" the game... They aren't going to ship all your epic gear to you when the server goes dark for the last time. :rolleyes:

[Arkat]

You obviously have neven worked with software (and probably,any large scale projects)

Wrong



So did you have any concrete ideas to this end, or are you just stamping your feet?

There is a difference between "subtle" and "oblique".

I stamped no feet. Sorry you didn't "get it."



Yeah - this isn't a troll thread . . . it is a NECRO TROLL thread!!!
(begin undead battle music . . .)

A two-month old thread hardly counts as a necro thread. If the thread were two years old, yeah it would be a necro but two months? :rolleyes:



You know, you wouldnt have to come here and try to initiate drama if you folks would stop letting every perfectly good hate buffet devolve into facebook

Yeah...right...



Usually that involves saying something.

Blank stares don't usually generate scintillating conversation.

Other people were able to give their thoughts, why couldn't you? Oh yeah, I forgot. You had a "blank stare." As someone who I like often says, "You should blame your parents."



This thread is hilarious! Much better than the last DDO2 thread. When this topic inevitably comes up again in a month or two would you mind being the one to post it? Can't guarantee it will be as funny as this but at least it will have a shot.

Forums are hard yo.

[Hambo]

Wrong




I stamped no feet. Sorry you didn't "get it."




A two-month old thread hardly counts as a necro thread. If the thread were two years old, yeah it would be a necro but two months? :rolleyes:




Yeah...right...




Other people were able to give their thoughts, why couldn't you? Oh yeah, I forgot. You had a "blank stare." As someone who I like often says, "You should blame your parents."




Forums are hard yo.

How often does this person say this to you? :D

[Arkat]

How often does this person say this to you? :D

To me? Never! :p

But to a lot of others, especially on the alternate DDO forum I also post on, a whole lot! :D

[countfitz]

That's awesome! When they shut down the servers, can we come to your house and play DDO? Since you "own" it? Thanks in advance, I'll even bring the Mountain Dew and Taco Bell.


Nobody "owns" the game... They aren't going to ship all your epic gear to you when the server goes dark for the last time. :rolleyes:

My point was, that if they went with the OP's suggestion and made DDO2, THEN THIS WOULD HAPPEN, and therefore I would NO LONGER own the game. Currently, while the servers are up, Turbine doesn't have any reason to close them, and DDO2 is not an idea, then yes, I own the game.

I feel I do own the game, in as much as I own my home or my dog. When my dog 'goes dark for the last time' does that mean I don't own him? I think I do. When the government takes my home away because of ____ (see eminent domain) then do I not own my home?

Point being, I own the game. Argue semantics all you want, I own it as much as a person owns the dollar bill in their wallet. By the way, you don't own those any more than this game. The government can legally stop you from using them, defacing them, etc. etc., so no, there is no such thing as ownership at all if we're arguing semantics.

Edit: What I DON'T own is the servers the game is run on, and the license to distribute said game.
So I guess if we're arguing semantics, then we also need to argue the word 'game.'

In that case, reflecting on this, I might lose the argument :(

[Dhalgren]

I stamped no feet.


Well, it certainly came across as petulant.



Sorry you didn't "get it."


Oh, I got it. I just didn't want it.

[Cernunan]

Oh, I got it. I just didn't want it.

Try this

http://herpesandcoldsoretips.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/herpecin-l-product2.jpg?w=460

[madmaxhunter]

*snip*(

My point was that you don't "own" it any more than VIPs. You have been granted full access to the content based upon purchasing that access. VIPs are granted full access via monthly subscription.

You own your home, if the government "needs" the land for a highway, shopping center, whatever, you will be compensated for it. A living creature has a lifespan. For dogs it's generally 10-16 years. You know going into dog ownership that their is an "expiration date" if you will, to that purchase. I guess, in a way, pet ownership does mirror purchasing content. Fond memories and sadness when it's gone.

[bradleyforrest]

8/10

[LeoLionxxx]

nt


Still think this is the best plan.

Oh yes, I can totaly agree, especially after you gave such a nice decription of why you think this, how it should go about being implemented, and written it very nice and clearly to pursaude others.

All in favor?


P.S.

nt
Thanks, now I think this message will be poping up all over the forums on stuff pepole don't like. Thanks a bunch (this is only half-sarcasm, I think this will become a new 'thing' on these forums :D.)

[squishwizzy]

This was not a trolling thread. This thread had two purposes:

1) To let Turbine know how I felt about the game in its current state.

2) I was hoping to foster a discussion on the meirts of starting over with something new rather than the patchwork of band-aids and "fixes" we have now.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

This is a good idea.

With all the experience I've had in software development, the one rule that most people don't want to acknowledge when it comes to their legacy product is this: it is almost always more efficient and less expensive to gut everything, and start over. Almost always.

Every product starts out with a specific architectural framework, however 5 years down the road, it ends up morphing into something completely different. And as years progress, and multiple hands ply their trade in the code, the end result is an interconnected web of code and specific fixes that makes maintenance and upgrades a literal nighmare.

However, a periodic re-do of the product, esepcially with the rate at which new advances in technology occur, is not only wise...it almost becomes mandatory. I've worked at places where people are STILL using the same code that was developed for a DOS or Unix box, wrappered, patched, repackaged...so often that the people who were in charge of the code had no frickin' idea how it did what it did. All they knew was that is was an essential piece of the product, and that it needed to be ported from one platform to the next, untouched and unrevised, because of its criticality. After a while, because of this, you end up with the core of your system dragging you down, because you have to run a mini-network of revisions and bypasses to get that "core" piece to work...and it usually doesn't work as good as it should.

All that work...all that money...all that time...all to avoid the inevitable.

Because you can never put a cost on making things better to justify the expense, you can never really predict (or quantify) what you'll lose if you don't rewrite, but you can quantify the revenue being brought in by your current product. And it is because of this basic business dynamic why you get what you're seeing with DDO. I've seen it dozens of times before.

Do not be surprised that some of the developers are saying something similar to what I'm saying as well.

One of the things that I specialize in is system re-writes. Of the dozens of times I've seen this same problem, only a handful of those led to a complete re-do. "Strangely" enough, the end-result of a re-do was always faster, better, and more efficient than the legacy system. Oh yeah, and we did it for relative peanuts as to what the costs were to maintain the legacy stuff.

But don't expect Turbine to do any of this. There is a reason why they call some things a "cash cow." You don't upgrade a cow, you feed it, dispose of its waste so that you can simply milk it until it eventually dies. That's what most businesses these days do.

Now back to "not posting on the forums." Again.

[Zhacko]

This was not a trolling thread. This thread had two purposes:

1) To let Turbine know how I felt about the game in its current state.

2) I was hoping to foster a discussion on the meirts of starting over with something new rather than the patchwork of band-aids and "fixes" we have now.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

What you did may *barely* not be trolling, but it was beyond subtle. The title combined with the text of "nt" is not understood by anyone except be people who were around at the time of the "no text" postings. I actually had to read the thread to understand what the mystical "nt" meant. Now, to look at your two points:

1) The title clearly states that you are an unhappy person, however, the lack of any constructive case or argument says to me that you need to be angry at something so you decided to be angry and lash out at at a video game company and it's employees for problems that are going to exist in pretty much every digital medium based product made my man.

2) I do not believe that any reasonable person (obvious jokes and arguments aside) would look at your posts and would begin an intelligent discussion on the "merits" of starting over. You have not started nor provided any merits, points, or arguments outside of the blanket "Fix all the bugs," "Fix all the lag," and "Why are you screwing the players" arguments that have flooded the forums. Instead of being part of the proverbial problem, what have you done to help? Have to e-mailed/talked with the Devs or with Turbine? Have you tried to collect information for the coders to use? Do you have specific fix ideas that you can propose to the people who are being paid to bring you this game?

Otherwise, if you have nothing to say, just go join WoW and leave the rest of us in peace.

[LOOON375]

nt
hahahahahahaha

What the hell is that? This has my vote for the lamest thread this week.

Oh and you forgot these:

at
bt
ct
dt
et
ft
gt
ht
it
jt
kt
lt
mt
ot
pt
qt
rt
st
tt
ut
vt
wt
xt
yt
zt

[Dwarfo]

I agree.
http://imageshack.us/a/img196/4637/1237642436toppie.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/1237642436toppie.jpg/)

[Worldcrafter]

A living creature has a lifespan. For dogs it's generally 10-16 years. You know going into dog ownership that their is an "expiration date" if you will, to that purchase. I guess, in a way, pet ownership does mirror purchasing content. Fond memories and sadness when it's gone.

Unless you get them taxedermized... then the memories can last forever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUVtfUWwF8

[Kakashi67]

nt

[Beethoven]

With all the experience I've had in software development, the one rule that most people don't want to acknowledge when it comes to their legacy product is this: it is almost always more efficient and less expensive to gut everything, and start over.

There is a difference in what type of software you develop. Look at all the titles recently released or still in development and how long it took (or still takes) from the point were they started working on a game until its release. It is usually in the neighborhood of one to three years.

B2B the development company gets paid from the moment they get hired for the project. That's not true in game development. They don't get paid until the game is done and even then have no guarantee it will actually become popular enough to even cover its (years) of development costs.

It's fairly easy to rack up 100+ K expanses a month when having to pay salaries, insurance, benefit packages, taxes and running costs for an entire development team; multiplied by twelve for each year and potentially again multiplying it by up to a factor three for total development times and it should become obvious that starting over might not be necessarily the best idea and - at best - is taking a huge risk.

[Arkat]

Oh yes, I can totaly agree, especially after you gave such a nice decription of why you think this, how it should go about being implemented, and written it very nice and clearly to pursaude others.

All in favor?


P.S.

Thanks, now I think this message will be poping up all over the forums on stuff pepole don't like. Thanks a bunch (this is only half-sarcasm, I think this will become a new 'thing' on these forums :D.)

/fail

[Hokiewa]

I would not want Turbine to "start over"
I don't want Turbine ever touching the license again with a new "product"
That said, I still play

[Zhacko]

/fail

All of the comments that you make like this just confirms to me that this is in fact a troll thread and that you are just flaming the thread.

[Arkat]

I would not want Turbine to "start over"
I don't want Turbine ever touching the license again with a new "product"
That said, I still play

Honestly, I think even Turbine could do a better job with a second chance. That's assuming, of course, they have better methods in place for change and version control and someone to put the fear of God into the developers to document properly.

And yes, I still play as well. I really do love the game, or rather, what parts of the game I play.

[Zhacko]

Speaking of leaving you in peace, I didn't force you to read the thread and post. You brought that misery upon yourself. Perhaps you should blame your parents for raising a sad panda.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

You are right. I shouldn't have even bothered. Thank you.

[Hokiewa]

Honestly, I think even Turbine could do a better job with a second chance. That's assuming, of course, they have better methods in place for change and version control and someone to put the fear of God into the developers to document properly.

And yes, I still play as well. I really do love the game, or rather, what parts of the game I play.

There would have to be massive "changes" in "philosophy". This has been in some variant or other "promised" at various parts during the life of the game. That's been a fail.

I wouldn't buy it

[Arkat]

This is a good idea.

With all the experience I've had in software development, the one rule that most people don't want to acknowledge when it comes to their legacy product is this: it is almost always more efficient and less expensive to gut everything, and start over. Almost always.

Every product starts out with a specific architectural framework, however 5 years down the road, it ends up morphing into something completely different. And as years progress, and multiple hands ply their trade in the code, the end result is an interconnected web of code and specific fixes that makes maintenance and upgrades a literal nighmare.

However, a periodic re-do of the product, esepcially with the rate at which new advances in technology occur, is not only wise...it almost becomes mandatory. I've worked at places where people are STILL using the same code that was developed for a DOS or Unix box, wrappered, patched, repackaged...so often that the people who were in charge of the code had no frickin' idea how it did what it did. All they knew was that is was an essential piece of the product, and that it needed to be ported from one platform to the next, untouched and unrevised, because of its criticality. After a while, because of this, you end up with the core of your system dragging you down, because you have to run a mini-network of revisions and bypasses to get that "core" piece to work...and it usually doesn't work as good as it should.

All that work...all that money...all that time...all to avoid the inevitable.

Because you can never put a cost on making things better to justify the expense, you can never really predict (or quantify) what you'll lose if you don't rewrite, but you can quantify the revenue being brought in by your current product. And it is because of this basic business dynamic why you get what you're seeing with DDO. I've seen it dozens of times before.

Do not be surprised that some of the developers are saying something similar to what I'm saying as well.

One of the things that I specialize in is system re-writes. Of the dozens of times I've seen this same problem, only a handful of those led to a complete re-do. "Strangely" enough, the end-result of a re-do was always faster, better, and more efficient than the legacy system. Oh yeah, and we did it for relative peanuts as to what the costs were to maintain the legacy stuff.

But don't expect Turbine to do any of this. There is a reason why they call some things a "cash cow." You don't upgrade a cow, you feed it, dispose of its waste so that you can simply milk it until it eventually dies. That's what most businesses these days do.

Now back to "not posting on the forums." Again.

Thank you. This is the kind of stuff I was looking for. +1 for you!

[Arkat]

You are right. I shouldn't have even bothered. Thank you.

It was my pleasure. Have a great weekend. :)

[Arkat]

There would have to be massive "changes" in "philosophy". This has been in some variant or other "promised" at various parts during the life of the game. That's been a fail.

Can't disagree with you there Hokiewa.



I wouldn't buy it

You might if I had Fernando's job. :p

[Hokiewa]

You might if I had Fernando's job. :p

You fool no one Arkat :D

[Arkat]

You fool no one Arkat :D

Let's see where we are regarding that in say...5 years? :eek:

[Hokiewa]

Let's see where we are regarding that in say...5 years? :eek:

I'm really not that interested

[Arkat]

I'm really not that interested

Not exactly sure what you're talking about now but fair enough. I probably won't be around then either.

[karsion]

Not exactly sure what you're talking about now but fair enough. I probably won't be around then either.

Pretty strange as s/he quoted YOUR message s/he was referring to.

[tralfaz81]

Flaming or not, OP has a good point. You keep building and adding to old code/scripts and various other parts of the game like crafting and after 6 or so years, you have the game equivalent of the Winchester mansion.


p.s. for the like 2 people who caught the reference without google, give yourself +1 rep from me
p.p.s. for the ones caught up on semantics - I know they can't give themselves +1. Its a joke :rolleyes:

[Arkat]

Pretty strange as s/he quoted YOUR message s/he was referring to.

Yeah but I'm not sure what Hokiewa meant by his/her response. Just seemed kinda weird...almost like they thought I was being serious about something.



Flaming or not, OP has a good point. You keep building and adding to old code/scripts and various other parts of the game like crafting and after 6 or so years, you have the game equivalent of the Winchester mansion.


Exactly. Thank you.

P.S. Nice reference to the Winchester mansion. The wife and I were just in Santa Clara a couple weekends ago! +1 for you!

[seebs]

This was not a trolling thread. This thread had two purposes:

1) To let Turbine know how I felt about the game in its current state.

2) I was hoping to foster a discussion on the meirts of starting over with something new rather than the patchwork of band-aids and "fixes" we have now.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

You were too vague, and didn't give any kind of meaningful starting point for a discussion. You didn't say why you thought they should start over, or how you thought it would work.

In practice, I think the evidence is mostly that "start over from scratch" is much less likely to produce good results than "refactor in place". Refactoring gives you a much better chance at preserving things you really *did* need even though you don't remember why, better testing all along the way, and so on.

I have, in my time so far as a programmer, seen a single case where "write a new thing from scratch" appears to have really paid off, and the circumstances were pretty unusual. I could make a good case for the theory that the new thing was not really a re-do of the old one, but a fundamentally different thing which happened to be able to fill the same purpose within a development system.

Apart from that, it's pretty much ALWAYS been a bad idea.

[seebs]

Flaming or not, OP has a good point. You keep building and adding to old code/scripts and various other parts of the game like crafting and after 6 or so years, you have the game equivalent of the Winchester mansion.

Unless, say, you do a fair bit of refactoring along the way. In which case you may be pretty much fine.

Thing is, if you start over... You have most of six years' worth of work to recreate. And you're gonna miss a LOT of stuff in trying to do it.

[MRMechMan]

nt

[Shmuel]

nt

nt

[Missing_Minds]

p.s. for the like 2 people who caught the reference without google, give yourself +1 rep from me
p.p.s. for the ones caught up on semantics - I know they can't give themselves +1. Its a joke :rolleyes:
Ah, but I can get myself a fresh soda for knowing the reference.

For me, that is a +1

[Arkat]

You were too vague, and didn't give any kind of meaningful starting point for a discussion.

I beg to differ. Several people who have posted in this thread figured it out.



You didn't say why you thought they should start over,

If you've been paying attention to the gameplay (or lack thereof) at all, that should be self-evident.



or how you thought it would work.

That was not one of my points at all. My point wasn't "how" they should do it. It was the fact it *should* be done. That's all.

If you want to talk about the "how" then perhaps you should create your own thread. I'm not trying to be flippant here. I just think your missing the point of this thread.

[seebs]

I beg to differ. Several people who have posted in this thread figured it out.

That you proposed a topic doesn't mean you provided a workable starting point. A workable starting point would be an explicit statement or three that illustrate what exactly you think they should do, and why.


If you've been paying attention to the gameplay (or lack thereof) at all, that should be self-evident.

"Should be self-evident" is a fancy way of saying "I cannot articulate my emotional response on this topic". Me, I am enjoying the game. So are some other people I know.

If you want to argue that the game is buggy, hey, easy sale there. But "it's buggy" and "they should start over" are not equivalent statements.


That was not one of my points at all. My point wasn't "how" they should do it. It was the fact it *should* be done. That's all.

Doesn't work that way.

There are many things where whether or not they should be done depends very much on how they would be done.


If you want to talk about the "how" then perhaps you should create your own thread. I'm not trying to be flippant here. I just think your missing the point of this thread.

And that is my point:

If you had put even a tenth as much effort into actually stating your point, coherently, from the beginning, that wouldn't happen. Instead, you leave things unstated and simply assume that everyone else necessarily shares your preferences and values, so they'll reach the same conclusions. Does not work.

Consider a post like:


I think DDO is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deep enough in the design that this is not the sort of thing that can be fixed in a patch. For instance, [specific example goes here]. Furthermore, the engine as a whole is very buggy, and seems to be getting consistently worse. It's time for a fresh start from the top, taking advantage of lessons learned and newer technology, to build a modern, well-designed, MMO with much improved stability.

That? That would be providing a meaningful starting point for a discussion.

That said:

No, they should not start over. (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html)

When I first read this piece, I laughed at it, because it was so obviously wrong. Then I looked back at my development experience, and the projects I've worked with, and worked on. And I looked at what happens when I refactor existing code bases, and what happens when I start from scratch.

And now I think he's basically right; in most cases, starting over makes things worse rather than better, at huge cost, with a large amount of downtime. Especially because of second-system effect. I think that they should do some overhauling, but I think refactoring would work a heck of a lot better than "starting over".

[Dhalgren]

That you proposed a topic doesn't mean you provided a workable starting point. A workable starting point would be an explicit statement or three that illustrate what exactly you think they should do, and why.



"Should be self-evident" is a fancy way of saying "I cannot articulate my emotional response on this topic". Me, I am enjoying the game. So are some other people I know.

If you want to argue that the game is buggy, hey, easy sale there. But "it's buggy" and "they should start over" are not equivalent statements.



Doesn't work that way.

There are many things where whether or not they should be done depends very much on how they would be done.



And that is my point:

If you had put even a tenth as much effort into actually stating your point, coherently, from the beginning, that wouldn't happen. Instead, you leave things unstated and simply assume that everyone else necessarily shares your preferences and values, so they'll reach the same conclusions. Does not work.

Consider a post like:


I think DDO is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deep enough in the design that this is not the sort of thing that can be fixed in a patch. For instance, [specific example goes here]. Furthermore, the engine as a whole is very buggy, and seems to be getting consistently worse. It's time for a fresh start from the top, taking advantage of lessons learned and newer technology, to build a modern, well-designed, MMO with much improved stability.

That? That would be providing a meaningful starting point for a discussion.

That said:

No, they should not start over. (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html)

When I first read this piece, I laughed at it, because it was so obviously wrong. Then I looked back at my development experience, and the projects I've worked with, and worked on. And I looked at what happens when I refactor existing code bases, and what happens when I start from scratch.

And now I think he's basically right; in most cases, starting over makes things worse rather than better, at huge cost, with a large amount of downtime. Especially because of second-system effect. I think that they should do some overhauling, but I think refactoring would work a heck of a lot better than "starting over".

This.

Your original point is not a bad one at its root: DDO could use a more solid core. Is it worth rewriting from scratch at this point? Hard to say. Refactoring at this point, given the complexity of what needs to be reproduced, would seem to be nearly impossible without breaking the bank. Adding to the current code base without breaking existing behaviours seems almost as hard to do. Tough call. I say this with a couple of decades of professional software development experience.

But you presented the idea in the OP in an intentionally oblique manner. Again, mind games suck. If you have something to say, say it. Man up. Does the word "Scrotie" mean anything to you?

[seebs]

Refactoring something like this might be hard, but it's conceivable, and substantial system-by-system overhauls of large code bases have, in the past, been quite successful. It's a much better shot at success than starting over, in any event.

[Dhalgren]

Refactoring something like this might be hard, but it's conceivable, and substantial system-by-system overhauls of large code bases have, in the past, been quite successful. It's a much better shot at success than starting over, in any event.

I agree that it's conceivable, and quite possibly desirable, but would you want to do this over time, or all at once? If the software governed critical systems then one might be willing to spend the resources to burn it down and rebuild it. For a game? I'm not so sure. Slowly refactoring over time would seem more realistic, if less satisfying.

I am pretty sure that if I were working on this code base, I'd want to rebuild if only just to make my own life easier. I'm just as sure that there is no way in hell I would be given the time or resources to actually do that for a game.

If the time could be committed to doing that, I would be thrilled. I just don't get the impression, from past experience with Turbine's management decisions, that it's in the cards.

Sadly, "conceivable" and "desirable" may not translate smoothly to "economical" for the management folks who pay the devs.


[Edit: Not saying that I think management is necessarily right here; refactoring could go a long way to rebuilding what seems to be dimishing trust, as could a rethink of customer relations. I'm just saying that in a lot of ways, the devs don't get to make all the calls.]

[seebs]

I would think you'd absolutely want to do it over time. Traditionally:

1. Look for cases where there are interactions between something's internals and things external to it. Try to clean those up by providing a defined API for access to them.
2. Now take that thing, and start doing cleanup. Small or big cleanup; just start cleaning it, getting to know it well, while not changing the behavior at all.
3. At some point, you'll have something a lot more maintainable, which hasn't changed behavior. All your tests have remained usable the entire time, so you know nothing (that you're testing for) has been broken.
4. Now you can consider making changes -- but you can do so with confidence that changes won't have a lot of unintended side effects, and that you know the system well enough to mess with it safely.
5. Repeat over many other systems.

Takes a longish time, but the nice thing is, basically every stage of it produces tangible benefits. Just small ones sometimes, but the chances of not being able to fix a couple of bugs as you go just by cleaning up broken special cases are pretty good, and when you've done it, you generally have a much cleaner and more controllable system.

[Ryiah]

I'm curious how many actually got this reference! I did! /one sec flipping over the floppy

I got most of it, but I don't recognize the "S38=0" or "+++" parts. Most of my Commodore 64 games were loaded with a simple command like below. Occasional ones that took up the entire disk required adding the ",1" to it but most disks held several games with a menu system to select the game (I get the feeling my collection originated primarily from a BBS source but they were given to me so no idea).



Load "*", 8

[apocaladle]

This was not a trolling thread. This thread had two purposes:

1) To let Turbine know how I felt about the game in its current state.

2) I was hoping to foster a discussion on the meirts of starting over with something new rather than the patchwork of band-aids and "fixes" we have now.

Perhaps I was too subtle.

If you think so why not sponser the new game it sould only cost you about....100 million? because thats how much it costs to make an mmo nowadays that is not completely a sack -o - ****

[IronClan]

I think the OP has no idea what he's in for with a hypothetical DDO restart from scratch...

First off years of development, which will require years of DDO having next to no updates or expansions.
Almost certain use of the newest D&D rules
Almost certainly a shallower more WoW like experience
Massive loss of depth
Less character building
Less variety (as the most popular quest types items and builds are going to be the only ones that get included)
modular "Balance" designed in from the start.


Because of the insane "balance" concerns in most MMO's more MMO's are going for cookie cutter balance. Where powers have basically identical impact on the game and only different graphics, to give the illusion that they are actually different. For example:

Melee does 500 damage close range (sword swing) Throws a dagger or Axe for 250 damage and "ground stomps" an AOE attack for 100 damage.
Wizard does a 500 damage close range "death touch" a 250 damage "magic missile" and a AOE attack that looks like a fireball that does 100 damage.
Priest does a 500 damage smite...

You see where this is going. Diablo 3 and WoW are already trending the industry in this direction.

Frankly I think it sucks... Balance is massively overrated and only really matters to the poor soles who haven't yet figured out that displaying their "Epeen" in an MMO is a hollow, pointless and ultimately non-fun aspect of online gaming. Balance in MMO's = sameness with the appearance of difference. Balance is homogenization, think about it for a moment. Grey is color that is perfectly "balanced" what fun is Grey? Beyond a certain point balance is actually a very undesirable attribute in a game. Where that point should be is largely a matter of how flexible and imaginative or adaptable a person you are.

Finally since Ultima Online MMO's have gotten nothing but more dumbed down, less role playing and more "online amusment park"... A reboot of DDO from scratch would omit the "hard" parts and the "confusion" of multiclassing, Skills/Feats/Attributes to increase the mass market appeal.

[Meat-Head]

nt

[Arkat]

You're fooling me Arkat!

Hey, that's EXACTLY what I was going for. :p

[Nibor]

They already did a pass on the physics engine and animation in U13 Patch2, "in preparation for the expansion". So they have spent some resources cleaning up/improving the code.

In general, "refactoring" or "clean up" is a pretty cost intensive project without much immediate gains - you touch a lot of code, you aren't adding any new functionality or fixing defective behaviors, and you need to QA everything you touch and have the potential to add a lot of unexpected bugs. Major projects usually don't see it until there's some signification benefit waiting on the cleanup. Maybe a stack of really important bugs, or more likely new function that the marketplace is really asking for (like..improving the physics engine so the outdoor areas in the expansion are pretty enough to justify charging for them).

The reason people start over new is they hope to get fresh new sales on the new product, including from people who already own the old product. Not so sure that's a good idea in the MMO industry.

[ryingar]

Honestly, I think even Turbine could do a better job with a second chance. That's assuming, of course, they have better methods in place for change and version control and someone to put the fear of God into the developers to document properly.

And yes, I still play as well. I really do love the game, or rather, what parts of the game I play.

Yes Document/version control is key.

[Arkat]

Yes Document/version control is key.

Where the heck have you been Poe??

[Qezuzu]

Starting a code over from scratch, with the intent to "do it better", is a pretty good way to waste lots and lots of time and money. Turbine is better off just bug fixing, and possibly fixing their "spaghetti ball of code", as Tolero or someone put it. But not by burning it to the ground.

The road to Hell (read: bankruptcy) is paved with good intentions.

[adamkatt]

Still think this is the best plan.

Must be boring in wyoming. :)

[ryingar]

Where the heck have you been Poe??

I had to take a break. I was a bit too worked up about a few things.

[Greyhawk6]

Maybe not DDO2 but an overhaul is due I think.

* Improve toon graphics
* Overhaul UI - especially the inventory.
* More content from Forgotten Realms for lower level toons
* Horses
* Personal Housing
* Crafting overhaul

Game is really showing its age at the moment IMO.

[Arkat]

I had to take a break. I was a bit too worked up about a few things.

You gonna play tonight?

[Kawai]

Maybe not DDO2 but an overhaul is due I think.

* >snip<
* >snip<
* >cut chop cut<
* Horses
* >snip some more<
* Crafting blah blah bla---SNIP!


:o i wanna pony!
/signy signy scribble
... oh.. and (*scrunches fingers )...
t n...
...thingy.. or... :confused: whatever ----Power to the People!

[Greyhawk6]

Well...I'm glad I'm not smoking whatever you are oO

[goodspeed]

I just wanna be the one that hits that shiny red button.

Soon now, very soon. Eberron will become a replica of Alderaan