So...what now?

[parvo]

nm...

[Duncani_Daho]

DOOOOM!

The new stuff is gorgeous, thematically interesting and The Core, as a guild, has seen very little of it. I still think the best way to experience Faerun, if you can't see it in a PD guild, is to group with like-minded people. There Is so much cool stuff that sparks the imagination in Menace, it would be a pity to delay too long to get a taste.

My one complaint is that everything but elite is way too easy. Epic hard ought to be challenging, no?

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

Yes, we are just getting out there too, the kings Forest is frikkin awesome fun (and pretty, has some of that lotro feel).
And HUGE!
I thing probably every other explorer zone in the game could fit into the forest with room to spare. Its so big I found myself wishing it was possible to establish a camp there that allowed you to return to that point when you log in.
The size, along with the other unique aspects of this zone... quite frankly its the closest Ive seen yet in this game to offering the feel of actually being on an adventure.

[Vordax]

DOOOOM!

The new stuff is gorgeous, thematically interesting and The Core, as a guild, has seen very little of it. I still think the best way to experience Faerun, if you can't see it in a PD guild, is to group with like-minded people. There Is so much cool stuff that sparks the imagination in Menace, it would be a pity to delay too long to get a taste.

My one complaint is that everything but elite is way too easy. Epic hard ought to be challenging, no?

So any perma-deathers thought about doing an alternative starting level? Use veteran-7 and start there so you can see more of the higher level content? Maybe even have a "stoned" group that vet-7's then stone of experiences to 16 to see some of the newer higher level quests?

[Magnyr_Delorn]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=381002

[parvo]

For those guilds that don't use auction or broker, the new pre-adolescent-DM-here-you-can-have-a-holy-sword-for-killing-a-kobold-super-monty-haul-loot is going to have a big impact on play. The change is going to create a big shift in character power. What was difficult before will become easy. What was easy before will be a total laugher. I think it is a bad change for PD and the game as a whole, but Turb seems intent on making it super fast and easy to cap your character in "normal" play.

This is not a change that is easily ignored. Auction house and broker are simple to disallow, chests and end loot are not. I have several characters I started from scratch with the new loot. By level six, they are better equipped than my previous level ten to twelves. Progression will require less thought along the way. Strategic play will decrease in favor of zerg and heal. I don't like the change but I don't see many good alternatives.

The bright side is there is a lot of content my guild has not completed. One can only hope we find suitable challenge at new heights.

[ddobard1]

Yes loot is much better!?

But guilds may tight a bit rules, if necessary...... and ddoing Chronoscope elite at level is still a challenge for permadeath!

[dredre9987]

The problems your running into are your own devising and not with the game. You ( perma-deathers ( well ok some )) are limiting yourselves from the game...That is not Turbine's fault.

[parvo]

The problems your running into are your own devising and not with the game. You ( perma-deathers ( well ok some )) are limiting yourselves from the game...That is not Turbine's fault.

We're trying to create challenging character progression in a game that otherwise has none.

[Rawel_San]

Gotta agree with Parvo there. While I'm on pretty much the other side of the spectrum from him (lvls 1-20-25 get
run through as fast as possible with as much twink as I can muster) I completely see the point of the PD.
Adding challenge to the game and in the process making it more group focused and PnP like via restricting
twinking and getting rid of zerg, zerg, zerg, die, zerg, zerg, zerg is a valid playstyle choice.

It is a shame that PD is being hit as hard as it is with this update. It is yet to be seen if the general monty-haul
and let's just give out everything to everyone right now is good or bad for the game. So far I hear people
liking the easier difficulties and enjoying the new loot. We will see what the feeling is like in 2-3 months.

Hope you come up with a way to make the game challenging for yourself in PD again Parvo,
best wishes,
Rawel

[dredre9987]

We're trying to create challenging character progression in a game that otherwise has none.


Right I understand that and have played PD a bit before. I'm just saying everything your whining about on the boards is because of your own set of rules. If things change to something you don't like dealing with loot, don't use it. That is a perfectly good argument here since you already tweak all the "house" rules of turbines to your own " house" rules.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

Right I understand that and have played PD a bit before. I'm just saying everything your whining about on the boards is because of your own set of rules.

Parvo and I don't see eye to eye very frequently, but this comment is ridiculous.

#1. He isn't whining.
#2. Where else would you highlight issues relevant to permadeath play but in the PERMADEATH FORUM?

[dredre9987]

Game loot issues have nothing to do with perma death in this game since Turbine HAS NOT put in perma death, the players have. All of his gripes about loot are easily fixed by him adding more loot rules than he already uses. Turbine doesn't make content for perma death rules. They make it for overall game rules.

[parvo]

Right I understand that and have played PD a bit before. I'm just saying everything your whining about on the boards is because of your own set of rules. If things change to something you don't like dealing with loot, don't use it. That is a perfectly good argument here since you already tweak all the "house" rules of turbines to your own " house" rules.

I whined about traps and loot. Niether are messed up because of anything to do with PD. Your solution is not thoughtful or helpful.

[parvo]

Game loot issues have nothing to do with perma death in this game since Turbine HAS NOT put in perma death, the players have. All of his gripes about loot are easily fixed by him adding more loot rules than he already uses. Turbine doesn't make content for perma death rules. They make it for overall game rules.

You seem to have all the solutions. Please propose a rule that would be helpful to us. Make it such that opening chests and choosing end loot is still a fun and enjoyable reward (like it was prior to an 8 year old taking over loot duty), yet balanced such that characters have gear appropriate to the encounters they face at level. I'm listening.

[dredre9987]

You seem to have all the solutions. Please propose a rule that would be helpful to us. Make it such that opening chests and choosing end loot is still a fun and enjoyable reward (like it was prior to an 8 year old taking over loot duty), yet balanced such that characters have gear appropriate to the encounters they face at level. I'm listening.

That's your job as a perma-deather not mine. I will adapt to what Turbine throws at me and not try to artificially make my own **** rules. That's the problem you have with loot now. You moan about how all your loot is no good and all the drops are better and make perma-death less challenging. So what, adapt.

[Kmnh]

Why don't you enforce "gateway quests" that you have to do to get to a certain level. Like, "you can't get to level 4 before doing waterworks on elite" or "You can't get to level 7 before doing a small problem on elite" That will put a nice big door on character progression. I'm sure you can find a suitable quest on each level all the way up to 20.


As for loot, I don' think the difference between a +1 shock light mace and a +1 holy light hammer is that big. As long as you skip the easier quests / enforce running the harder ones you should be OK. The big difficulty should be the consumable restrictions.

[sharachan]

As for loot, I don' think the difference between a +1 shock light mace and a +1 holy light hammer is that big. As long as you skip the easier quests / enforce running the harder ones you should be OK. The big difficulty should be the consumable restrictions.

That is something you can deal with, but my level 5 paladin pulled a +6 stat item with level 14 restriction. That is worse to handle. Even if i dont play PD, i want to pull usefull gear without getting op.

[parvo]

That's your job as a perma-deather not mine. I will adapt to what Turbine throws at me and not try to artificially make my own **** rules. That's the problem you have with loot now. You moan about how all your loot is no good and all the drops are better and make perma-death less challenging. So what, adapt.

So you have no worthy ideas. Congratulations. You are the target demo. The game will be made easy enough for you to easily cap and feel heroic. Epic even.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Most, if not everything in chests/end reward lists has a plat value.

You could create a "Plat Value" Cap on items you can loot from the chest or choose as an end reward. Could be based on character level or whatever criteria you choose that holds to the spirit or your ruleset.

For instance: If a chest contains a +1 Club of PG (~250 pp ?), 175 plat, 5 Heal Kits +1 and you have a Rule Imposed 300pp worth of items you can loot from the chest.

Similar with End Reward Lists: Plat Cap on what you can choose.


It could add an element of strategic decision making and help to moderate the monty.

[parvo]

Why don't you enforce "gateway quests" that you have to do to get to a certain level. Like, "you can't get to level 4 before doing waterworks on elite" or "You can't get to level 7 before doing a small problem on elite" That will put a nice big door on character progression. I'm sure you can find a suitable quest on each level all the way up to 20.


As for loot, I don' think the difference between a +1 shock light mace and a +1 holy light hammer is that big. As long as you skip the easier quests / enforce running the harder ones you should be OK. The big difficulty should be the consumable restrictions.

This is a good idea for static groups but not so good for open guilds. For one, it overly complicates a rule system. For two, it would have to be further complicated to fairly cover group size.

BTW, we haven't stepped from +1 shock light mace to +1 holy light hammer. We've stepped from +1 shock tough mace held by a character with +1 ogre power and hitting half the time to +1 shocking burst hammer held by a character with +3 or +4 ogre power and hitting almost every time. For those of us not twinking or using auction/brokers, this is a huge shift in character power, ease of quests, and ease of progression.

[dredre9987]

So you have no worthy ideas. Congratulations. You are the target demo. The game will be made easy enough for you to easily cap and feel heroic. Epic even.


Sorry I have worked for everything I have including all my Epic Elite completions. You don't seem to understand. I play within the rules of the game not some made up rules by someone so they can feel god like over a group of people. If Turbine wanted perma-death in this game don't you think we would have it by now?

[parvo]

Most, if not everything in chests/end reward lists has a plat value.

You could create a "Plat Value" Cap on items you can loot from the chest or choose as an end reward. Could be based on character level or whatever criteria you choose that holds to the spirit or your ruleset.

For instance: If a chest contains a +1 Club of PG (~250 pp ?), 175 plat, 5 Heal Kits +1 and you have a Rule Imposed 300pp worth of items you can loot from the chest.

Similar with End Reward Lists: Plat Cap on what you can choose.


It could add an element of strategic decision making and help to moderate the monty.

I appreciate the suggestion but its too complicated. I'm not going to ask players to keep a list of suitable loot (or loot value) next to thier computers. It also slows down play. No one wants to sort out loot at every chest (well, Losh actually does want to, but that's another story). This would become a barrier to play.

[parvo]

Sorry I have worked for everything I have including all my Epic Elite completions. You don't seem to understand. I play within the rules of the game not some made up rules by someone so they can feel god like over a group of people. If Turbine wanted perma-death in this game don't you think we would have it by now?

Such is the difference. For you, the game is work and therefore making it as easy as possible is a good thing. On the other hand, I want to log on every session and have my group fight to survive. I want to extend myself and my group beyond what we think is capable. It is not work, it is adventure.

[dredre9987]

LOL try an epic elite and you will "fight to survive" All I'm trying to get across is that your mad about the loot changes because they mess up your "made up" rules.

Now on spell damage and trap damage and trap dc's on heroic elite, I'm on your side...way too much for newer players.

[Kmnh]

The to-hit changes must really have a big impact. With the precision feat, you could probably take your level 1 character into a level 20 quest and still hit half the time.

DDO needed that change. Level 1 casters could always do damage on level 20 quests while melees and rangers were locked out. But I see how that major melee buff can mess up your rule system.

[kafrielveddicus]

Very simple solution for you parvo!

Restrict using loot to minimum level +2,3 or 4 levels higher than minimum level, anything else must be deconstructed, remove the restriction for toons level 20 and higher.

ie. a +6 stat item has a minimum level 14, but your guild rules stat all minimum levels are 4 levels higher than listed, so the minimum level would be actually 18 for your guild, problem solved, lol, but you wont like it because it came from the infamous NARC!

I bid you all the best!

[parvo]

Very simple solution for you parvo!

Restrict using loot to minimum level +2,3 or 4 levels higher than minimum level, anything else must be deconstructed, remove the restriction for toons level 20 and higher.

ie. a +6 stat item has a minimum level 14, but your guild rules stat all minimum levels are 4 levels higher than listed, so the minimum level would be actually 18 for your guild, problem solved, lol, but you wont like it because it came from the infamous NARC!

I bid you all the best!

Although in theory it might be a good idea, in reality telling players they can't use the loot they find in a chest while they adventure probably won't work. It's easy to ignore auction and broker, but chest loot and end rewards are another matter. It's not a bad idea just becasue you came up with it. Now...if Chai agrees with you, its defenitely a bad idea.

[ddobard1]

Time as come for a 'little' change: FORBID shrining!?

[Darthbadger]

I'm not sure you need to change any rules or avoid people using the chests. If the content is too easy with the new loot, run more difficult content. Skip ww and head straight to higher level quests. The goal is challenge, yes?

Well, that's awesome; but at any time you feel that the game or loot is making things trivial to you, just find more difficult content. I assure you, it is out there.

Good luck!

[Duncani_Daho]

I understand Parvo's exasperation. Here's my own take on the situation. The recent update, and particularly the loot tables, have made the game easier YET AGAIN. To name just two changes that came before: prestige classes and the shortened durations of enemy spells on players (like hold person, dance, even blindness and curse) have made the game continually easier. Players get cool new abilities. Monsters never seem to get an upgrade.

Now, changing the rules of a rather large guild like MV to cope with changes from an update is very tenuous business. Players in the guild think, "Rule changes? What now?" They sign on and enter the guild and level up characters while agreeing to a certain rule set. Changing the rules those characters have always run by is extremely irksome for some folks.

I can't see any easy, and easily enforceable solutions. People want to use the loot they EARNED from at-level questing, especially those who forgo the brokers and AH. When the loot tables get this out of whack, it calls for an adjustment.

Maybe run elite-once-and-done and limit the character level to the base quest level? It would mean the carnival series on elite with max level 5's, Xorian Cipher with max level 8's, etc. While definitely providing challenge, it would create LOGISTICS problems with players grouping. "Need a full party for that... Need a rogue, with really GOOD GEAR, for that one... etc." Even a simple rule change like that requires a lot of thought and consensus building.

More power to ya. The Core is still comatose. I'm having too much fun running the FR content to be in touch with other aspects of the game right now.

[parvo]

I'm not sure you need to change any rules or avoid people using the chests. If the content is too easy with the new loot, run more difficult content. Skip ww and head straight to higher level quests. The goal is challenge, yes?

Well, that's awesome; but at any time you feel that the game or loot is making things trivial to you, just find more difficult content. I assure you, it is out there.

Good luck!

This is probably the most viable solution. Problem right now is traps. Some trap DCs are so high that well built rogues can't spot/serach/disable at level.

[Darthbadger]

This is probably the most viable solution. Problem right now is traps. Some trap DCs are so high that well built rogues can't spot/serach/disable at level.

Yes, the trap DCs do present an issue for PD rogues. Permit use of AH for rogue gear? Tools and search, spot, DD googles? Or just limit to +5 tools would likely resolve this issue.

It would seem a shame to run trivial and nonchallenging content if the single issue preventing completion of harder content is trap dcs which could be resolved with purchase of tools---this solution may have the minimal effect on your ruleset, which I know is important to your guild.

[Niab]

Im not real sure the loot will have a great impact over the long haul.

Sure its better than we are used to but no AH / Brokers still limits you somewhat to random drops.

I do get the occasional exceptional item ...but have also pulled +4 dex boots from Baudry's before the update at level 2

Higher power stuff willl still have min level restrictions and we will have to wait to use them.

I still don't see a hugh influx of "higher level" PD characters . I think if the game was significantly easier we would see this.

Niab......

[Chai]

The game is not balanced for PD, ironman, challenging play. Those restrictive styles have ALWAYS found their challenge by changing the rules to meet their needs. Its no different this update than any other update, which also made it easier where the nich play style people have to rethink and retool.

As far as trap DCs are concerned, they are now balanced for +5 skill ML zero goggles and +2 stat items ML 3. When we start harping about better loot, and then harp about higher DCs, we need to add 2+2 together and use that better loot when attained to nail those higher DCs. Stuff drops like rain, and from what we've seen in our static, drops at low enough level where sometimes people cant even use it yet. Ive seen disable +7 items drop with an ML of 5 in harbor quests, while running on level 3 toons.

So yeah, youre right, its more monte haul than ever. What does this mean. It means running sharn on level 4 toons. Our static did it and hit traps on lower rolls with +5 skill gear from harbor drops on a non drow rogue. These kinds of adjustments have been made in the past for other updates. This update is no different than the last one, or the one before that.

[Duncani_Daho]

One very simple rule change would add a ton of challenge. And it would still keep the pnp flavor that some seek in a pd guild: no prestige classes. Easy to enforce, knocks player power down noticeably, and the simplicity of it is gold.

I know a pd guild out there will take this one and run with it soon, IF they want challenge.

For my taste, I wouldn't mind if there were vet status level 20 builds. The new stuff is just too cool, and I have yet to play up to max level the various epic destinies. Fatesinger looks coooooool......

[ddobard1]

Personally I'm against forbidding prestige classes since they exist in d&d and add much more customization to Heroes!

But if you wanna update rules to make play more interesting there are many possibilities.....

[intruder1]

This may or may not work for anyone but us, but the group I adventure with uses a simple method to adapt to the "Monty Haul".

This is only an opinion as applied to ourselves.
A character adds up the potential "factors" listed in an items info sheet and that number can not exceed the characters current level.
If an item doesn't have a potential factor, it is considered to be a 1.

The changes Turbine is applying to the game is for profit, we all know it and I can't really blame them. We take what is given us and try to make it into more of what we want, then try to group with the like-minded, if we can.

[parvo]

The game is not balanced for PD, ironman, challenging play. Those restrictive styles have ALWAYS found their challenge by changing the rules to meet their needs. Its no different this update than any other update, which also made it easier where the nich play style people have to rethink and retool.

As far as trap DCs are concerned, they are now balanced for +5 skill ML zero goggles and +2 stat items ML 3. When we start harping about better loot, and then harp about higher DCs, we need to add 2+2 together and use that better loot when attained to nail those higher DCs. Stuff drops like rain, and from what we've seen in our static, drops at low enough level where sometimes people cant even use it yet. Ive seen disable +7 items drop with an ML of 5 in harbor quests, while running on level 3 toons.

So yeah, youre right, its more monte haul than ever. What does this mean. It means running sharn on level 4 toons. Our static did it and hit traps on lower rolls with +5 skill gear from harbor drops on a non drow rogue. These kinds of adjustments have been made in the past for other updates. This update is no different than the last one, or the one before that.

I get what your saying. I really do. But not all easy buttons are the same. Some, like hirelings and auction house are very simple to ignore. Others, like temporary maladies, super-pre-adolescent-DM-here-have-a-holy-weapon-for-killing-a-kobold-do-you-like-me-now?-loot can not be easily ignored. I care less about the former and more about the latter.

I think Sharn elite has DC 21 traps. That's a pretty darn high mark for level 4 characters to hit even with +5 gear. I'm not sure if your static is well rounded, but often a static group has many advantages over open guilds. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

[parvo]

One very simple rule change would add a ton of challenge. And it would still keep the pnp flavor that some seek in a pd guild: no prestige classes. Easy to enforce, knocks player power down noticeably, and the simplicity of it is gold.

I know a pd guild out there will take this one and run with it soon, IF they want challenge.

For my taste, I wouldn't mind if there were vet status level 20 builds. The new stuff is just too cool, and I have yet to play up to max level the various epic destinies. Fatesinger looks coooooool......

My fundamental aversion to easy buttons is in direct contrast to my equally fundamental belief that we should not limit character build options. It's a quandry...

[Duncani_Daho]

Yeah but the character customization options, the prestige classes in this case, were added to the game much later. But they never added any power to the monsters. So characters got a big boost and monsters were left in the dust. That equals less challenge.

Some prestiges, like water savants, are just so over the top-- every spell they cast is like an insta-kill, and for 2, 4, 6 spell points. They can skip the shrines and be ok because they don't have to cast many spells when every other one kills something.

Adjustments have to be made if you want more challenge than is currently available in the game...