How many HPs to shoot for for a rogue?

[RS-Makk]

Trying to understand some build trades for a rogue... how many HP do you folks recommend to shoot for?

(one thing I was wondering was whether it would make sense to fit in Epic Toughness - but it seems in the process you end up gimping yourself elsewhere?)

[thwart]

Trying to understand some build trades for a rogue... how many HP do you folks recommend to shoot for?

(one thing I was wondering was whether it would make sense to fit in Epic Toughness - but it seems in the process you end up gimping yourself elsewhere?)

I am only a casual player. No raiding or raid gear. Just pretty much normal stuff. My rogue had 420 hp at level 20. I found that to be pretty good.

You may see a lot of posts with people saying you need 8 bazillion hp but I thought it might be helpful to see what a casual player was able to obtain.

Have fun!

Edited to add: As soon as I posted this I remembered something pretty important. My rogue had 7 levels of fighter. Obviously that screws up the numbers and is not helpful at all! I should probably go back to work instead of making these misleading posts! ;)

[Quarterling]

Ignore Rogann.

That's all I have to say. :)





Seriously though, you should try to aim for a stable 400 max hp at level 20, no less. If you can manage that, just be sure to keep your constitution up (meaning a +8 con thing) and anything that boosts your hit points. I haven't gotten into anything level 21+ yet, so I don't know what kind of new gear there is that grants more HP that stacks with everything else currently out there. Anyways, if you manage that, you shouldn't have any problem at all HP-wise at level 25.

Epic Toughness... meh. You need 21 base con first of all, and I would never start with a constitution higher than 16 on a rogue, and I would never put any level-ups into con. You'd be better off taking a second Improved Sneak Attack (once the bug is fixed).

Some people think otherwise and the only thing that runs through their mind is "Full-****** HP GRAHHH!!!". Don't listen to those people. :rolleyes:

[Scortius]

Without doing the math, a rogue that qualified for eToughness wouldn't have less than around 540 hp at lvl 20, depending a bit on gear and other build choices. eToughness would likely take most rogues to 600ish.

I don't think it's a bad deal, although CON at that level is a tradeoff and you'll have a tick or two lower DCs or to-hits. I'm currently running with a rogue eligible for eToughness, but if I rebuilt I'm starting to think about playing with a lower CON and better DEX

If you get to 600 or better you have a decent buffer for getting tagged with big disintegrates/shockwaves and things. Useful for durability, but at that level it is likely taking points out of DEX that would protect those hp through saves and AC. The math to work out at what point you're better off defending your hp than having more hp has a lot of variables in it.

[.Revenga.]

400+ at level 20

500-600-700 at lvl 25 depending on your destininies. I did fine at lvl 20 with just over 500hp in epic elite tho, having 200 hp more in there doenst mean alot as you get hit by 150'ish hits. You just don't want to get hit.
Therefor you don't want to sacrifice your main defense (dps) for another 10-20hp, meaning that investing in dps and dodge is more efficient then investing in hp at epic levels (mobs still die rather fast, their damage scales harder then their hp).
All the other difficulties are (obviously) a joke.

I've yet to run an epic elite von6 or eDQ, i suspect that at least 600+hp is needed to stand in front of these ladies.

The overall increase of hp also makes healing amp a more important stat on rogues;

[KingOfCheese]

At lvl 20:

400 good enough
500 my goal - and a nice buffer
mid 500s - great to have it - but extreme gear requirements if you aren't otherwise sacrificing valuable stuff

At 25:

I don't know yet. I'm shooting for 600+ normal buffing.

[destiny4405]

At least 600 unbuffed at lvl 25 if you ever plan to run eevon6.

[Rogann]

Pre-expansion(for a pure rogue Horc) Max HP with 1 toughness/18 starting con/racial enhancements(+20 hp)(max geared) is 505(NOTE:This is using a 5 peice abi set with a GS necklace). Even with a +4 con tome youll still have a un-even stat score.

Of course this isnt a viable build. My un-gimp hp would have been 445 hp(with a +4 con tome) pre-expansion.

In my rogue post:http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=352591

I list two builds. One based off of survivability, and one off of max DPS.

Hp varies from 800 hp unbuffed to about 550 for the glass cannon.

[Xalir]

If you aim for the Shadowdancer eToughness isn't really needed. At lvl20 I had 407 HP (14 base CON). Now at lvl25 I have 597 HP unbuffed. The devs did alot for us rogues to increase survivability esp in the Shadowdancer tree.

If you aim for another ED it might be a different story and you might need the eToughness feat cause you lose alot of the survivability.

[evilgardengnome]

Over 9000!

[RS-Makk]

If you aim for the Shadowdancer eToughness isn't really needed. At lvl20 I had 407 HP (14 base CON). Now at lvl25 I have 597 HP unbuffed. The devs did alot for us rogues to increase survivability esp in the Shadowdancer tree.

I didn't think Shadowdancer had any HP stuff (other than the 10 HP per level everyone gets per epic level)?

[Quarterling]

Ignore Rogann.

That's all I have to say. :)


Hp varies from 800 hp unbuffed to about 550 for the glass cannon.

I rest my case... :rolleyes:

[Rogann]

I rest my case... :rolleyes:

wut

[Rogann]

I didn't think Shadowdancer had any HP stuff (other than the 10 HP per level everyone gets per epic level)?

Nope. Just the hp from epic levels(which is about 65ish hp)

[Rogann]

If you aim for the Shadowdancer eToughness isn't really needed. At lvl20 I had 407 HP (14 base CON). Now at lvl25 I have 597 HP unbuffed.

Im confused as to how you got 190 hp. 65-70ish is from epic levels but how the extra 120?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Before Update 14 it went like this at level 20:
Plan to have over 400 HP with gear easily accessible.
Plan to have over 450 HP with close to finished gear (not including silly things like +4 con tome though).
Plan to be able to get to a stable 500 HP if you want to run Epic Lord of Blades (that is without ship buff etc).

More is good, madstone boots+silver flame potions are great for situations in which you don't need to heal others as they give you a nice extra buffer and a significant DPS boost (due to attack speed increase from 20 BAB).

My rogue (Not your Average Rogue in my sig) at level 20 has something like:
450ish with max DPS gear
500 with +3 con ring
540 with rage/ship buff
580 with madstone
620 with double madstone
640 with earth stance (18 rogue/2 monk build)
680 with yugo pot

With that I've tanked epic bosses when there wasn't anyone better suited to it (including Epic Turigulon and his previous phase friend in U13).

[thomhas_of_mabar]

If you aim for the Shadowdancer eToughness isn't really needed. At lvl20 I had 407 HP (14 base CON). Now at lvl25 I have 597 HP unbuffed. The devs did alot for us rogues to increase survivability esp in the Shadowdancer tree.



Such as?

[Rogann]

Plan to have over 450 HP with close to finished gear (not including silly things like +4 con tome though).


http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j376/rogann1/LOL20thtod07102012_2243.png

I dont think there silly....

[xveganrox]

[IMG]
I dont think there silly....

Pshh that one is BtC... How retro :P

[Xalir]

I didn't think Shadowdancer had any HP stuff (other than the 10 HP per level everyone gets per epic level)?

Survivability not always equals to a higher HP pool.


Im confused as to how you got 190 hp. 65-70ish is from epic levels but how the extra 120?
07-11-2012 02:05 AM

I can't answer that yet, I'm not on my computer to log into DDO. And myDDO is broken for my chars :-/. I will post a breakdown tomorrow. Only thing I got was a +2 exc CON item after U14.


Such as?

25% permanent incorpability from Shadow Form
1% dodge chance per Shadow Charge you're holding
50% displacement for a minute after 20s enhanced invisibility
50% miss chance as long as you do not attack (3 times per rest)
100% dodge chance up to 12 seconds every x minutes.

[wax_on_wax_off]

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j376/rogann1/LOL20thtod07102012_2243.png

I dont think there silly....

Congrats on your pull, I was just making the point that don't plan on pulling a +4 con tome to hit 450 HP, you should already be at 450 before running content that has a chance of pulling a +4 con tome (20th lists not withstanding).

[Qezuzu]

I dont think there silly....

Yes they are silly because they're so rare you can't reasonably plan one in your build.

Grats on your pull, but seriously, your advice is terrible.

To OP: At lvl20, you should be shooting for over 450 HP. Get all the gear you can. At lvl25, the jury is still out, but I'm guessing over 550.

At lot has changed. You could invest in some AC now and get away with lower HP...

[Rogann]

Grats on your pull, but seriously, your advice is terrible.


What advice? Im confused now.

[wax_on_wax_off]

What advice? Im confused now.

Just take it as a general truth.

[Rogann]

Just take it as a general truth.

General truth to who? You? Okay,thats fine. However to beleive you speak for everyone else out there is absurd. Sure my advice caters to a certain playstyle but many other people like my beliefs and advice.

[wax_on_wax_off]

General truth to who? You? Okay,thats fine. However to beleive you speak for everyone else out there is absurd. Sure my advice caters to a certain playstyle but many other people like my beliefs and advice.

Advice derived from beliefs, now there's a formula for failure.

What playstyle do you cater for?
Casual: Nope.
Moderate: Nope.
TR focused: Nope.
General end game focused: Nope.

Some specific niche audience?

[Spoprockel]

...but many other people like my beliefs and advice.

Barbarians? :D

[Mrphish]

Barbarians? :D

haha, sorry i just found that quite comical.

anyway @the op -
if at level 20 with just a minos, 6 con item, and greater false life item and a +2 con tome (wouldn't normally add this in but seeing as they are extremely common now i find them to be easily obtainable by anyone, even +3's are becomeing fairly more common then they where.) you can hit 400 hp or close to unbuffed (meaning within 5 or 10 points of that number) you should be fine.

this is assumeing first life, no past lives or raid/epic loot to speak of.

[Miow]

Before Update 14 it went like this at level 20:
Plan to have over 400 HP with gear easily accessible.
Plan to have over 450 HP with close to finished gear (not including silly things like +4 con tome though).
Plan to be able to get to a stable 500 HP if you want to run Epic Lord of Blades (that is without ship buff etc).

More is good, madstone boots+silver flame potions are great for situations in which you don't need to heal others as they give you a nice extra buffer and a significant DPS boost (due to attack speed increase from 20 BAB).

My rogue (Not your Average Rogue in my sig) at level 20 has something like:
450ish with max DPS gear
500 with +3 con ring
540 with rage/ship buff
580 with madstone
620 with double madstone
640 with earth stance (18 rogue/2 monk build)
680 with yugo pot

With that I've tanked epic bosses when there wasn't anyone better suited to it (including Epic Turigulon and his previous phase friend in U13).

Madstone is absolutely horrendous you cant do anything as a rogue, i can't remember seeing anything about it be WAI but as of now i would not include it in any calculations.

[Scortius]

So he's got 500-540 regular, and more with fancy/temporary stuff.

500-540 a good target number at 20/21 when you have a good gear set established. Lots of people play in the 400's and do fine. Past 540 standing, it's probably coming out of your defenses.

[Syllph]

Figuring out HP is easy for the most part: it's not a static number or even a threshold. Every play style is different so we each need different HP for what we enjoy doing.

Bottom line: are you alive at the end of the quest that you know well - your HP are fine. Are you dying constantly in content that you know well - you need more HP.



Accidents happen and sometimes our heals don't come when we need and we miss traps, raids can be tough and stray fireballs happen- all that being said those are excusable. Death happens - even to the best of us. If you find that your play style you die each and every quest and find yourself fearing big groups of mobs - then up your HP.

I've seen players walking around at 20 with 200ish HP and while I chuckle at first: they survive - and contribute. I've also seen 900 HP barbarians that are can't handle a room of kobalds. They have no combat feats no strength nothing just con every chance they get and toughness. Giant squishy idiots. (these are extremes most with 200 hp at level 20 will fail horribly)

(Some can get nice HP correctly, but sadly so many new players see HP HP HP and just ignore everything else in lieu of having a big number. I've seen a PM drink yugo pots and rage and even madstone rage then go into lich form before joining a group just to say they have big HP.)

Just adjust to your own play style and have fun.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Madstone is absolutely horrendous you cant do anything as a rogue, i can't remember seeing anything about it be WAI but as of now i would not include it in any calculations.

Madstone is a bit broken at the moment, hopefully fixed in tonights patch. That said, I've been playing a TR5 rogue, level 15 now, and have had madstone boots on since I could pull them out of the bank with just a few swaps to innocence boots to bypass some traps, it's good to have ~400 HP at level 15.

Madstone boots are situational, they might be more situational with the non-WAI behaviour but still just situational, sometimes they're good (most raid fights, particularly the ones with large splash damage that you want to survive) and sometimes they're bad.

[Xalir]

Sry about my wrong HP value. It wasn't 597 just 517 unbuffed. Dunno, what I was thinking when I typed it. Probably was in my mind when I was on a different destiny.

[Ebforest60]

At 20 I was actually running just below 400 hp most of the time. My GS HP item was neck slot but I also have Golden Guile there and the Improved Deception seemed to help more than the extra HP if I pulled aggro (mob constantly spinning around and giving me SA.)

This is with pretty average gear, and not running the very top Epic Elite quests. I thought about gearing but with the new content I haven't quite figured out what I want, so I'm waiting on swapping the HP item slot.

As someone pointed out regarding Shadowdancer: avoidance can be more valuable than HP, as long as you can survive spikes in damage in between the misses.

[RS-Makk]

Thanks all for all the advice. A key takeaway is that my being tempted to go for epic toughness to increase survivability isn't really needed on a rogue, and also takes away from putting points into other things where I would get more out of them (depending on what I am focusing on).


Madstone is a bit broken at the moment, hopefully fixed in tonights patch.

I wasn't aware they were broken - what's wrong with them?

Also, the melee alacrity.. that still is only really 10% (not the 20% the description says) and doesn't stack with haste right? (which is a huge bummer).

On my current build/life (12 Ranger / 7 Rogue / 1 Monk) I usually throw them on for the boss fights.. where I am getting good/focused heals and I won't be self-buffing mid fight. I have multiple sets, so I am double madstoned for a bit and the HP boost during that time is awesome.

[Reaper999]

Not to get off topic, but since a rogue has umd as a class skill you can buff that skill up enough to heal yourself. Being able to tumble out of an Area of Effect and then heal yourself is great for survivability. People can argue that you have to stop DPS, but people who are dead do no dps and are a waste of mana for the healers.

I am for around 400hp. If I was using a melee rogue I would aim for over that. You always want to go with your rogue abilities that help you mitigate damage. Dodge rating, diplomacy, bluff, tumble, blur scrolls, etc. Rogue class is like a bag of tricks and you use w/e you can find to be the most resourceful in a situation, imo.

[xveganrox]

Madstone is absolutely horrendous you cant do anything as a rogue, i can't remember seeing anything about it be WAI but as of now i would not include it in any calculations.

Madstone Boots are more important for a rogue than any other melee. They add +2/+4 str, +4/+8 con, and more importantly give you a Fighter's base attack bonus, which increases your attack speed (DOES stack with haste). They're currently bugged so you can't do a lot of things (rage, disable traps, etc) that you can normally do with them, but they're still invaluable for raid fights.

[Rogann]

Advice derived from beliefs, now there's a formula for failure.

What playstyle do you cater for?
Casual: Nope.
Moderate: Nope.
TR focused: Nope.
General end game focused: Nope.

Some specific niche audience?

Clearly we have two different views of rogues playstyles. Rogues should be focusing 100% on DPS while getting in there with the barbs and tearing things apart. If you pull aggro keep swinging(why heal you when all your doing is blocking?). If the tank cant get aggro back he should prob re-roll. This playstyle caters to all whether your casual or not. Rogues are meant to dps first, everything else second.

[Rogann]

Madstone Boots are more important for a rogue than any other melee. They add +2/+4 str, +4/+8 con, and more importantly give you a Fighter's base attack bonus, which increases your attack speed (DOES stack with haste). They're currently bugged so you can't do a lot of things (rage, disable traps, etc) that you can normally do with them, but they're still invaluable for raid fights.

I dont believe it stacks with haste. Did you mean haste boost?

[.Revenga.]

I dont believe it stacks with haste. Did you mean haste boost?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Base_Attack_Bonus

I believe it's 5% speed attack bonus for each 5 BAB. I can be wrong about that tho.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Clearly we have two different views of rogues playstyles. Rogues should be focusing 100% on DPS while getting in there with the barbs and tearing things apart. If you pull aggro keep swinging(why heal you when all your doing is blocking?). If the tank cant get aggro back he should prob re-roll. This playstyle caters to all whether your casual or not. Rogues are meant to dps first, everything else second.

An intelligence based mechanic rogue who only hits on glancing blows with his repeater can do almost as much DPS as you if you have aggro and he doesn't. Did you not get that memo?

[Rogann]

An intelligence based mechanic rogue who only hits on glancing blows with his repeater can do almost as much DPS as you if you have aggro and he doesn't. Did you not get that memo?

Your assuming id take aggro in the first place.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Your assuming id take aggro in the first place.

Ahh ...


If you pull aggro keep swinging

[xveganrox]

Clearly we have two different views of rogues playstyles. Rogues should be focusing 100% on DPS while getting in there with the barbs and tearing things apart. If you pull aggro keep swinging(why heal you when all your doing is blocking?). If the tank cant get aggro back he should prob re-roll. This playstyle caters to all whether your casual or not. Rogues are meant to dps first, everything else second.

I agree with a lot of your "rogue philosophy" but you lose me here. Taking aggro doesn't matter plenty of the time, but in some situations it's a really bad idea. Take an at-level ToD: Getting eHoroth's aggro can be very bad for you, even with high heal amp and hp - those DoTs hurt! Any half-decent rogue should be able to get aggro whenever they feel like it - switch a couple incite items on, hit double attack boosts (because highest burst DPS rogue is human), use an ability or two (fury of the wild Taunt + Adrenaline is a guarantee), and there you go. The highest damage rogues are going to mitigate aggro as well as they can in order to keep those 100+ damage sneak attacks coming.


I dont believe it stacks with haste. Did you mean haste boost?

Nope, it stacks with haste and haste boost - try it some time and check. It speeds up your attacks because you go from a base attack of 15/15/20/25 to 20/20/25/30. Going from BAB of +15 to BAB of +20 is a significant attack speed boost.

[Xalir]

It's even better, you get a jump from BAB18 to BAB25. Same with Divine Favor. This is probably not intended, cause you get a higher BAB than an 1:1 BAB class nowadays. Probably monk behaves the same.

[wax_on_wax_off]

It's even better, you get a jump from BAB18 to BAB25. Same with Divine Favor. This is probably not intended, cause you get a higher BAB than an 1:1 BAB class nowadays. Probably monk behaves the same.

Oh blimey, DP/madstone for all! (combat classes anyway).

Anyone confirmed an attack speed difference between BAB 20 and 25?

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Oh blimey, DP/madstone for all! (combat classes anyway).

Anyone confirmed an attack speed difference between BAB 20 and 25?

Tried it.

Didn't notice a difference. And usually I'm real good at spotting speed differences. I'm guessing they never bothered to extend the BAB attack speed tables that high.

[shoQue]

As many ppl already mentioned, a lot depends on your play style. If you prefer the swashbuckler style i would aim for more hp than if you go for the sneakier backstabbing style.

My (pure lvl 25) rogue had 607 hp after ship buffs - no destiny
Base 14, +3tome, +7con item, toughness feat, toughness item, 2x racial toughness, draconic vitality, GS item, superior false life, +3profane con, +1 exceptional con

Imho an overkill for my play style, so i dropped the toughness feat (and thus the enhancements as well) and invested in a higher dodge %. (asked Fred to replace toughness for dodge)

Without my destiny i am looking now at 555 hp (after ship buffs), 15% dodge, 20% blur.

Don't forget d&d is a team based role playing game. If i want to solo i will play mario brothers


Edit: blur > ghostly and therefor it was not needed to mention the 10% seperatly.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Edit: blur > ghostly and therefor it was not needed to mention the 10% seperatly.

Blur stacks with ghostly so if you have ghostly (or the 25% miss chance from shadowdancer incorporeality) they make separate checks to see if it misses due to blurry or if not then maybe to incorporeality.

[Qezuzu]

Clearly we have two different views of rogues playstyles. Rogues should be focusing 100% on DPS while getting in there with the barbs and tearing things apart. If you pull aggro keep swinging(why heal you when all your doing is blocking?). If the tank cant get aggro back he should prob re-roll. This playstyle caters to all whether your casual or not. Rogues are meant to dps first, everything else second.

Does assassinate count as DPS?

What about emergency scroll healing?

[SenorPhatnutZ]

My pure rog int based assassin just hit 440 unbuffed HP at lvl 21.
I'm not crazy about that number, but it's not terrible.

I don't die much unless I get forced in to a role I'm not built for, like tanking or getting surrounded by mobs due to poor aggro management on the group's part or stupidity on my own part. The comment about using UMD to make use of heal scrolls or other magical healing is spot on.

With improved evasion, more useful AC post expansion and blur or similar (displace, dusk, etc..) you shouldn't often be too worried about your HP in the thick of battle unless your catch too much aggo. In which case, it may be time to re-evaluate your play style a little.

Hiding, flanking and sneak attacking mobs that are aggro'd on the tank and have 70-85% HP is an effective strategy. Unless you've invested in melee threat reduction significantly, but even then it's best never to attack an enemy that can see you coming as a rog. This method is useful because by the time the mob aggros you for all the damage you're dealing , he's either dead or slivered.

Remember, there are old thieves and there are bold thieves.
But there are no old bold thieves.

Rogann is the exception to the rule, apparently. I would avoid his advise. I'll not critique it, because it works for his play style and that's fine. But if you play a rogue the way the rest of us do, don't go str based unless you have a reason, don't stand next to barb and sponge the healer's blue bar, and stay hidden until you attack something that you know you can kill before it knows you're there.

[Quarterling]

Does assassinate count as DPS?

Not to Rogann I guess; instantly killing one or two mobs every 15 seconds is completely useless to him and contributes nothing to DPS or the party.

[SenorPhatnutZ]

In planning for my next TR, it will be useful to know if the rog hast boost enhancement stacks with anything else for attack speed. Specifically, the arcane haste spell, but as a point of interest, with longstrider, strider boots, or other movement based buffs.

[Quarterling]

In planning for my next TR, it will be useful to know if the rog hast boost enhancement stacks with anything else for attack speed. Specifically, the arcane haste spell, but as a point of interest, with longstrider, strider boots, or other movement based buffs.

Rogue haste boost does stack with the haste spell as well as everything else that provides a bonus to attack speed.

Though to my knowledge, there are only two different sources of increasing your attack speed (the haste spell or anything related to it, and the haste boost enhancement).

[SenorPhatnutZ]

Rogue haste boost does stack with the haste spell as well as everything else that provides a bonus to attack speed.

Though to my knowledge, there are only two different sources of increasing your attack speed (the haste spell or anything related to it, and the haste boost enhancement).
Thanks, thought so but wanted to be sure.
As far as additional sources of melee attack speed - what about melee alacrity? like on jorgundals necklace and the like?

[Quarterling]

Thanks, thought so but wanted to be sure.
As far as additional sources of melee attack speed - what about melee alacrity? like on jorgundals necklace and the like?

I have a Jorgundal's Collar so I can confirm that it and all forms of alacrity doesn't stack with the Haste Spell (it does stack with the Haste Boost enhancement).

Unfortunate, but I suppose it's expected (otherwise you could get game-breakingly amazing attack speed).

[destiny4405]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Base_Attack_Bonus

I believe it's 5% speed attack bonus for each 5 BAB. I can be wrong about that tho.

it's about 1.5% for TWF and 1.8% for unarmed per 5 BAB.

[Postumus]

There is enough gear out there that you can get to 500+ easily. Especially once you hit epics.