Rangers need some reconsideration

[HatsuharuZ]

When I look at all of the info on rangers, I notice a few irregularities, and they all boil down to this: No one considered how rangers would play at level cap. Rangers have alot of interesting abilities, but they either have to sacrifice alot for those abilities, or they are unable to do much with them unless they multiclass.

For example:

1) Only rogues and artificers can use the Search skill to find traps with over a 20 DC, and a Detect Hidden Doors clickie can be used to find hidden doors, so what's the point of rangers having the search skill?

2) Rangers have the Summon Nature's Ally spells, but the animals they summon have such a low CR that by time you get access to them they are useless.

3) Rangers get some excellent benefits by taking the Tempest PrE, but they have to use up most of their feat slots to get the full benefits. No other PrE is that costly.

4) Rangers get Hide and Move Silently as class skills, but they don't have class feats/enhancements that let them make use of it, unlike Stunning Fist for monks or Assassinate for rogues.


I think that rangers need some love! Maybe some better enhancements, new PrEs and a puppy that grows with it's master would do the trick~

[Grailhawk]

3) Rangers get some excellent benefits by taking the Tempest PrE, but they have to use up most of their feat slots to get the full benefits. No other PrE is that costly.

What feat do you feel you need after IC: Slashing, Power Attack, Toughness, EW: Khopesh, Maximize, Quicken? A Human Ranger can get all that in plus the 4 prerequisites now thanks to the 2 extra epic feat. On top of that they have said they are loosening the feat tax on Rangers once the Enhancement Pass go's live. Just saying this isn't as big an issue as it was 2 months ago and likely (ok its turbine so hopefully) wont be an issue in a year.



I think that rangers need some love! Maybe some better enhancements, new PrEs and a puppy that grows with it's master would do the trick~
Please no a useless pet is the last thing Ranges need.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Rangers (and other classes too) suffer from being designed for the pnp D&D. In pnp, skills have many uses that do not translate well into a video game.

Also monsters are seriously buffed up in DDO compared to regular D&D.
Those summon monsters woul dbe more useful in a regular D&D game.




Tempest has the same number of feat requiremnets Arcane Archer does. But AA i also a Rgr PRE, so that hardly defends Turbine's Rgr design. ;)

I would have to closely look at other PREs to really decide what I think about Tempest (and AA).
But I do agree that it is very feat intensive.





My complaints about Rgrs at end game have to do with DPS.
Rgr DPS comes no where near Kensei and Frenzy, or arcane caster damage, or Blade Barriers, or Rogue SA damage.

Manyshot, slayer arrows and improved precise shot can do some serious damage..... for 20 seconds.
But even then, compared to some videos I have seen of what other classes are capable of, my Rgr's DPS feels pretty dismal. :(


Of course Rangers have other benefits than DPS.

Evasion and high Ref save is awesome for survivability.

I used to argue that the self buffs, like the resists were an advantage, but ship buffs have given those resists to everyone else for free..... :(

Ranged combat is advantageous... but... compared to what exactly?
Arcane casters can dish out a lot more DPS at almost the same ranges....

and Artificers make a joke of Rgr bow damage. :(






I would like to see some of the non DPS things beefed up slightly...
Where are Rgr animal companions?!
Where are the other Druid spells that are also suppose to be usable by Rgrs?

Summons in general seem kinda weak to me. They should do the same kind of damage to monsters that the monster version does to us! and I'm not seeing that...



But, it's really the DPS thing that I think needs a buff.

[HatsuharuZ]

What feat do you feel you need after IC: Slashing, Power Attack, Toughness, EW: Khopesh, Maximize, Quicken? A Human Ranger can get all that in plus the 4 prerequisites now thanks to the 2 extra epic feat. On top of that they have said they are loosening the feat tax on Rangers once the Enhancement Pass go's live. Just saying this isn't as big an issue as it was 2 months ago and likely (ok its turbine so hopefully) wont be an issue in a year..

I don't think I'd take maximize on a ranger. Empower Healing, maybe. And I'd really like to be able to use my epic feat slots for epic feats... but there isn't much for a ranger, is there?. Not at all. In fact, I should go elf and ignore khopeshes altogether. With ethereal bracers and GS mineral weapons, I won't need much else in the way of weapons until I can do epics.


Please no a useless pet is the last thing Ranges need.

Pets are not useless, they are situationally useful. Also, note that a "pet", vs. a "summon", can be controlled like a hireling and given enhancements and equipment by the user. It's a great step up from the god-awful CR 1-4 "Summon Nature's Ally" summons. In fact, I'd trade half of the free feats and half of the ranger spell list for an animal companion (which can draw aggro from my light armor-using ranger) and some enhancements for my pet and damage.

[Grailhawk]

I don't think I'd take maximize on a ranger. Empower Healing, maybe. And I'd really like to be able to use my epic feat slots for epic feats... but there isn't much for a ranger, is there?. Not at all. In fact, I should go elf and ignore khopeshes altogether. With ethereal bracers and GS mineral weapons, I won't need much else in the way of weapons until I can do epics.

Maximize has nice big heals Empower has more mana effective little heals its a personal preference in the long run. There's not much in the way of good epic feat for most classes its not that big a deal as there are a lot of good heroic feat to choose from.

Human or Helf are better races healing amp and damage boost just being the tip of the iceberg as to why there better. But the game isn't so hard that you have to type cast to a specific race.


Pets are not useless, they are situationally useful. Also, note that a "pet", vs. a "summon", can be controlled like a hireling and given enhancements and equipment by the user. It's a great step up from the god-awful CR 1-4 "Summon Nature's Ally" summons. In fact, I'd trade half of the free feats and half of the ranger spell list for an animal companion (which can draw aggro from my light armor-using ranger) and some enhancements for my pet and damage.

Trading half the free feat for a USELESS pet would a horrible idea. You your self said the best use for the pet is as canon fodder It brings nothing else. I would much rather build my Rangers in light armor to have better defense than most Fighters and keep the two weapon fighting feat for consent DPS (yes this needs a bit of help but I think that's coming in the Enh pass) and the best burst damage in the game with Manyshot.

Yes I understand the D&D purist mentality that makes you choose between a TWF and Archery but its not part of DDO and has no place in it after so many years.

And all a pet would really do is add 5% penalty to exp from it dying do to idiotic AI.

[FranOhmsford]

Maximize has nice big heals Empower has more mana effective little heals its a personal preference in the long run. There's not much in the way of good epic feat for most classes its not that big a deal as there are a lot of good heroic feat to choose from.

Human or Helf are better races healing amp and damage boost just being the tip of the iceberg as to why there better. But the game isn't so hard that you have to type cast to a specific race.



Trading half the free feat for a USELESS pet would a horrible idea. You your self said the best use for the pet is as canon fodder It brings nothing else. I would much rather build my Rangers in light armor to have better defense than most Fighters and keep the two weapon fighting feat for consent DPS (yes this needs a bit of help but I think that's coming in the Enh pass) and the best burst damage in the game with Manyshot.

Yes I understand the D&D purist mentality that makes you choose between a TWF and Archery but its not part of DDO and has no place in it after so many years.

And all a pet would really do is add 5% penalty to exp from it dying do to idiotic AI.

There is no penalty assigned to xp from Artificer/Druid pets - Why do you say this would be so for Rangers?

I'd say that the "trading half the free feats" was exaggeration on the OPs behalf - It certainly would be a very very bad idea {But only because Rangers are heavily feat-starved as is - They're not alone (Paladins, Souls and Clerics all have problems with feats too)}.

I think the OP {Myself definitely} would actually like to be able to play an Elf Tempest Ranger without being considered gimp.
It's annoying enough that H-Elves have taken virtually every Elf benefit as well as having their own abilities.
Khopeshes are meant to be rare weapons - They are ridiculously common however in Stormreach.

We have a problem with gear in DDO where everyone has to have the same few items {Some variation by class/race etc.}
If the likes of Khopeshes had been made as rare as they should have been then yes they'd still be highly desired but we'd have more people taking Scimitars, Long Swords etc for the ease of access {i.e. being able to have multiple different weapons for different situations without having to pay out silly prices on the AH or get really lucky with loot}.

There's been a lot of talk about Docents with Race Requirements {Non-Warforged i.e. useless}.
Why exactly do we have D-Axes with Race Requirement Non-Dwarf????
Why exactly do Dwarves not get benefits with Warhammers? Esp. Dwarven Clerics???

Where are the Spears, Slings, Flails that should be in the game?

All Daggers should gain Deception {Bluff bonus pt at least} as a non magical ability {Built in}.
All Medium/Hvy Bludgeoning Weapons should gain Bone Breaking {Or the lesser version - Can't remember all the different names} as a non magical ability {Built in}.
All Slashing weapons should gain Slicing/Bleeding
All Piercing weapons should gain Puncturing. {If Spears were added in to the game then Wounding should be added for Two Handed}.
Two Handed Weapons should have even more specific bonuses on top of this:
Greatswords - 1-4 Bludgeon dmg - These were historically Bludgeoning weapons as much as Slashing. They should be at least able to break Bludgeon DR.
Falchions - Prob don't really need more buffage - Slicing+Bleed same as every other 2 Handed Slashing weapon would be enough.
Great-Axes - Vorpal - Nat 20/Nat 20 crit confirm - Power Crit/Kensai Bonuses would apply - Seeker would not.
Mauls - Smiting - See G-Axes
GreatClubs - Stunning Blow Built in {DC should be usable but not overpowered}.

[HatsuharuZ]

There is no penalty assigned to xp from Artificer/Druid pets - Why do you say this would be so for Rangers?

I'd say that the "trading half the free feats" was exaggeration on the OPs behalf - It certainly would be a very very bad idea {But only because Rangers are heavily feat-starved as is - They're not alone (Paladins, Souls and Clerics all have problems with feats too)}.

I think the OP {Myself definitely} would actually like to be able to play an Elf Tempest Ranger without being considered gimp.
It's annoying enough that H-Elves have taken virtually every Elf benefit as well as having their own abilities.
Khopeshes are meant to be rare weapons - They are ridiculously common however in Stormreach.

Thank you! You took the words right out of my mouth.

I've never played the PnP version of D&D, and alot of what I know comes from games like Neverwinter Nights and it's sequel.

I just feel that rangers are *missing* something that all the free feats in the game couldn't give it. Right now there are only two things you can do with a ranger: ranged DPS and melee DPS. Currently rangers are the ONLY class that has charm and damage spells, but no spell penetration or stat/DC-improving enhancements to buff them with. At all.

Have you ever tried to type with a keyboard that has broken a, e, i, o and u keys? That's the ranger class in DDO.

[Aerendil]

Manyshot, slayer arrows and improved precise shot can do some serious damage..... for 20 seconds.
But even then, compared to some videos I have seen of what other classes are capable of, my Rgr's DPS feels pretty dismal. :(

Ranged combat is advantageous... but... compared to what exactly?
Arcane casters can dish out a lot more DPS at almost the same ranges....

and Artificers make a joke of Rgr bow damage. :(

But, it's really the DPS thing that I think needs a buff.


Agreed on most of your points, but really wanted to stress this one.

In PnP, x-bows did not benefit from strength damage as the weapon was mechanical in nature. Whether you have 8 strength or 21 strength made little difference, so long as you can pick it up, aim it, and pull the trigger.
Unlike bows (composite bows in PnP, especially) which benefit from strength.

However, for whatever reason, Turbine saw fit to introduce strength damage with crossbows. Not only that, but they provided a spell that allowed them to make use of their Intelligence - giving them a dual benefit if they wanted to be an effective caster as well since they got a dual benefit from one stat. Imagine if Rangers could use dex to bow damage??

Turbine didn't stop here, though. They also introduced elemental weapons, which gave them further damage (+d6), and then created runearms and decided that they'd add a further damage boost by allowing runearms to provide damage boosts to their primary weapons (a further +x damage - now at 2d10 or more at level 20ish runearms). They then introduce a tier I PrE that gave Artificers the equivalent of Manyshot, as well as permanently boosting their primary weapon's enhancement by +2, +2 to confirm crits and crit damage, and +10 hp. I won't even begin to compare this PrE with Deepwood Sniper......

Oh, and then they decided Artificers should have crossbow attack and damage enhancements, something that Rangers are seriously lacking with bows (you need to level to 20 before you can get +damage with bows, OR be an Elf...), and gave them a damage boost clicky enhancement (+25% at max tier).

So yeah, suddenly ranged combat became FUN when Artificers arrived. People were doing impressive dps, and it was a very viable means of dps.
Shame that's not the case with archery.


Rangers have AA (which adds marginal dps due to vorpals), and favored enemy damage (which may be lost in the enhancement pass if you don't spend points in Deepwood Sniper, where it's apparently going to be). Anything else, an Artificer clearly outshines Rangers in.
Rangers need serious improvements. And not just in the archery field.


*edit*
PS - everyone keeps stressing the damage potential of IPS. Not sure about you guys, but I find my options for maximising IPS damage in groups or raids is always minimal at best. Trash dies way too quickly; orange nameds get insta-killed; and red nameds - well, IPS is useless against a solo mob.
I find it useful against trash only for the most part - and that requires a lot of kiting to ensure they all line up perfectly, in which case any melee probably would have already meleed half of them down.

If IPS is one of the main reasons Devs are afraid to boost archery, then need to realise that (1) Artificers get access to IPS too with crossbows, and they don't seem concerned about their dps potential; and (2) IPS is situational at best.

Manyshot exceeds melee dps for the most part, yet regular archery dps falls far short of it. In fact, the fact most "archers" in DDO feel the need to splash /6 monk for 10K stars to complement Manyshot, is a very telling statistic in my mind.

[noinfo]

When I look at all of the info on rangers, I notice a few irregularities, and they all boil down to this: No one considered how rangers would play at level cap. Rangers have alot of interesting abilities, but they either have to sacrifice alot for those abilities, or they are unable to do much with them unless they multiclass.

For example:

1) Only rogues and artificers can use the Search skill to find traps with over a 20 DC, and a Detect Hidden Doors clickie can be used to find hidden doors, so what's the point of rangers having the search skill?

2) Rangers have the Summon Nature's Ally spells, but the animals they summon have such a low CR that by time you get access to them they are useless.

3) Rangers get some excellent benefits by taking the Tempest PrE, but they have to use up most of their feat slots to get the full benefits. No other PrE is that costly.

4) Rangers get Hide and Move Silently as class skills, but they don't have class feats/enhancements that let them make use of it, unlike Stunning Fist for monks or Assassinate for rogues.


I think that rangers need some love! Maybe some better enhancements, new PrEs and a puppy that grows with it's master would do the trick~

There was a time long long long ago now that Rangers were at the top of the food chain for melee (the original tempest and then when monks were released)

They were never the best dps but back then they did not have to be as stat damage was king and synergy with monk let them obtain a great AC.

Since then alot of proxy nerfs have hit leading me to the point of no longer playing rangers (this is a very big thing for me as one of them prior to the expansion pac was my favourite not epic melee)

1. Introduction of Grazing hits was the first step, might not seem like much to some but remember Rangers get d8 HD and no toughness enhancements (even FS and Druid get these)

2. Stat damage/Vorpal nerf, with dps being king with no other reliable way of a melee dealing with them at end game rangers lost a significant bonus (along with alacrity being removed)

3. Introduction of epics, this reinforced the need for dps and massive hp, neither of which is a rangers speciality, ignoring the reasonable ac that could be achieved by monk splashes due to massive too hit inflation reduced rangers potential yet again.

4. Other melee types received significant boosts via updates to enhancements and PRE the ranger got their bonuses nerfed on all accounts - alacrity going, untyped defense bonus typed as a shield bonus (now even worse shield clickies give 5 min of +4 shield bonus that also blocks MM)

5. Expansion pack has almost completely killed off the ranger splash with monk for AC purposes and AC potential on those toons that built for it via this method have been completely shot, pure monk is ok but 1 or 2 monk splash you get evasion (ranger gets already) and 1 to 2 feats.

Currently my main rangers is enjoying joining a monestary and the others are enjoying their retirement.
Substandard HP
Substandard Ac (even worse now for splashes)
Substandard DPS
Substandard Self healing

All this mainly due to substandard enhancements and PRE implementation. I really appreciate what the OP is trying to do here and I am very negative about the whole thing but I and many others have tried to get a buff for rangers for literally years, no response from devs except for some vague indications from a enhancement revamp at some latter stage that is going further and further away and for me it is just too late to save them, the combat change was the last straw.

So for all the melee rangers out there I will make one suggestion for you: TR to monk they get a buff every update, but don't worry about taking the ranger active PL now since you will be able to fill that with a +6 item (easy to get) better than your spell and your rather limited self healing with SF pots and the only other signature spell is now almost completely useless as well (FOM).

Don't worry though despite the desperate need for Ranger love this thread will go the way of all others (mine included) without a single Dev response. Don't worry about Rangers falling to the bottom of the melee pile though, they are already there (pallies just above them though at least they can tank), if you want a self healing melee, with good defense the only options are clerics and FS and on top you get to dot stuff too.

Good luck with your cause though.


*** edit: Sorry Rangers did get a buff: Spike Growth!!!

[Aritukus]

My 18ranger/1fighter and 1 rouge tempest was shining and shines through out the heroic content and in epic elite in expansion.

Yes, I agree to the OP's claims that PrE is quite demanding for feats, but thats all-right now - Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack were quite buffed up. Only downside now is the last feat you have to choose: Blocking or Oversized. But thats all-right. I still manage to get Stunning Blow, Maximize and Cleave on my human tempest. Running the Legendary Drag. ED makes your tempest a killer, if you can slot Cleave. Try and go out for some rage twists and you have an excellent self-sufficient (withs healings and buffs - Cure Poison per say) melee dps.

HP is good (sitting on 820+)
Damage is excellent (+ count in 4-5 Favor. Enemies)
2 epic slots fill the need of any other feat (of course, if you refrain from getting "the" Epic Thougness - which I dont have)
Self-heal is very sustainable - 280-340 [depends on your heal-apmli] maximized cure serious wounds are enough for epic-elite emergencies, in my own experience - makes you fully self-healing in epic-hard and less.
Buffs: one of the best buffs in game (sure, wouldnt mind Death Wards, but...)
Skills: enough skill points to do actually whatever you want with them.

I dont, literally, find them in need of anything. I wont be talking about AC, since my AC was completly dumbed in name of the lovely Fury of the Nature epic rage enhancements, so 67 means on epic lite something around... 24% to be missed? On theo ther hand, 16% to dodge is not that bad.

[noinfo]

My 18ranger/1fighter and 1 rouge tempest was shining and shines through out the heroic content and in epic elite in expansion.

Yes, I agree to the OP's claims that PrE is quite demanding for feats, but thats all-right now - Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack were quite buffed up. Only downside now is the last feat you have to choose: Blocking or Oversized. But thats all-right. I still manage to get Stunning Blow, Maximize and Cleave on my human tempest. Running the Legendary Drag. ED makes your tempest a killer, if you can slot Cleave. Try and go out for some rage twists and you have an excellent self-sufficient (withs healings and buffs - Cure Poison per say) melee dps.

HP is good (sitting on 820+)
Damage is excellent (+ count in 4-5 Favor. Enemies)
2 epic slots fill the need of any other feat (of course, if you refrain from getting "the" Epic Thougness - which I dont have)
Self-heal is very sustainable - 280-340 [depends on your heal-apmli] maximized cure serious wounds are enough for epic-elite emergencies, in my own experience - makes you fully self-healing in epic-hard and less.
Buffs: one of the best buffs in game (sure, wouldnt mind Death Wards, but...)
Skills: enough skill points to do actually whatever you want with them.

I dont, literally, find them in need of anything. I wont be talking about AC, since my AC was completly dumbed in name of the lovely Fury of the Nature epic rage enhancements, so 67 means on epic lite something around... 24% to be missed? On theo ther hand, 16% to dodge is not that bad.

Not to put you toon down but what buffs are you talking about? Not resists or bark because they can be got from items easy now and better versions or even ship buffs for resists.
The dps from it no matter what you slot is pretty below what a similar melee toon can do and those maximised heals look a bit lite o compared to what a human can get with a SF pot anyway, the only thing they offer is really evasion and you can splash 2 for that. And as for what Rangers were able to achieve (despite nerfing up till the xpac mine was one of the first to solo VOD)

Now appart from my negativity I am glad people are happy with their rangers, and I would love to see the break down of what you had to slot for those HP too, dumpstated dex I take it and multiple toughnesses? (Though I have not run the figures and only making assumptions)

Edit: to be fair also it should be pointed out what can be achieved within heroic as Epic provides generic based bonuses to build on top of that.

[Strider1963]

As I have posted elsewhere in the forums, the only meaningful dps a ranger has(especially a totally ranged AA with little melee dps), is multishot and it lasts how long? 20 seconds, then a very long cooldown... Its kinda like giving barbs their rages, but they only last 20 seconds and then have to wait 90 sec to use one again....lol!
Artificers get not only a repeating crossbow which can be fired indefinately with no cooldown, they get a runearm which does massive damage and a metal doggie...but of course, Artys are a premium class, and Rangers are free, so there you go...
The cooldown on multishot shoud be reduced to 30 seconds (tops)... that still wouldnt come anywhere near leveling the playing field between artys and rangers, but it would help.
I enjoy playing both my AA and Tempest ranger but they simply dont have the dps of a lot of other classes out there, AA especially. Yes, slayers help against mainly against bosses, but they really dont proc that much... anything you have to roll a 20 to get isnt that great. And then to hit anything at epic levels, you need decent dex, and strength suffers, so inbetween multishots any melee damage you might do would be minimal, at least for a 28 point build, im sure multi-trs would be better. Rangers need a lot more love than the enhancement to ips they just got....

[crypto177]

Sure rangers should and do multiclass (1 lvl rogue is almost mandatory), and a pet is a terrible idea. Rangers do need some love but from reading the few posts about the enhancement pass coming up they should be getting enough of a bump to keep them competitive with all the other classes.

As to search, they could drop the requirement of trapfinding to find trap boxes, but then that does not give you so much since without a lvl of rogue or artificer you can not disarm it. I feel you should be able to find the trap but not the box with search... not sure how it works now since I take rogue at lvl 1.

[HatsuharuZ]

Sure rangers should and do multiclass ....

That's the problem right there. A class should be able to stand on it's own! Multiclassing should be optional, not mandatory.

[Ape_Man]

That's the problem right there. A class should be able to stand on it's own! Multiclassing should be optional, not mandatory.

How much you want to be that 100% off-hand damage that either Eladrin or MadFloyd mentioned 6 months ago will be a new capstone?

The other stuff mentioned a few months ago will greatly reduce the need to multiclass. Heck, EDs arguably could be said to have already done this.

[Ape_Man]

Now appart from my negativity I am glad people are happy with their rangers, and I would love to see the break down of what you had to slot for those HP too, dumpstated dex I take it and multiple toughnesses? (Though I have not run the figures and only making assumptions)

Edit: to be fair also it should be pointed out what can be achieved within heroic as Epic provides generic based bonuses to build on top of that.

Dude . . . 800ish HP at like level 23 is not tough at all on a Tempest who takes FoTW which is possibly the best ED for Tempests anyway. Is that lower HP than a fighter or barb sure it is, but the fighter can't get mid 50s Reflex Saves (with twists) and 250-300 point quickened CSW.

If you're not building a ranger with self-healing in mind in the modern game you are building her wrong. That's it's Schtick. Buff smuffs, much of it can be gotten with gear or are covered by ship-buffs now. The self healing is what makes a ranger viable which is what a lot of people who play deep-splashes miss. Yes fighters can UMD scrolls and use SF pots but it's just not the same, I have a fighter who does that and it's just not the same as a 250+ point CSW.

You are trading DPS for self-healing when you roll a ranger. That's just how it is.

Should there be some changes? yes, and I'm hoping much of that will be covered in the ENH pass. I'd like to see more damage against non FEs and additional FEs choosable via enhancements. Against non FEs the rangers DPS does lag which is a problem if you don't visit Fred everytime we get some new content. I'd like to see some more defensive improvements as well. The 10 PRR from tempest III is nice but the Shield bonus should be higher considering how little each point of AC means now compared to what it uses to.

[Havoulov]

Adding dex bonus to bow damage would be the thing...

[Aliss7]

What is breakdown on how to get 250-300 CSW?

[Ape_Man]

What is breakdown on how to get 250-300 CSW?

30% racial Healing Amp.
30% Claw set
20% Tod ring (don't have this until I can recraft but tested with Leviks)
30% ranger Devotion

20 Spell Power pots.
60 Spell power tricket

Maximize feat.

I only use this for the "I'm gonna die" moments and use scrolls between mobs to stretch out the SP.

[Aerendil]

How much you want to be that 100% off-hand damage that either Eladrin or MadFloyd mentioned 6 months ago will be a new capstone?

The other stuff mentioned a few months ago will greatly reduce the need to multiclass. Heck, EDs arguably could be said to have already done this.

Yeah, I got that feeling too regarding the 100% offhand damage, that it would be the new melee Ranger capstone.
Tempest III was going to be changed to throw in scimitars as being treated as light off-hand weapons - not sure if that'll still apply. With the possible removal of feat pre-req's for PrEs, it's not a massive boost either way. Most can afford OTWF now, and certainly will post-enhancement update.

As for ED's - yep, agreed. Combined with the combat changes, and especially with upcoming suggested feat removal from PrE's, will there still be a need for a fighter splash when LD gives clicky boosts and that extra feat isn't all that necessary? Will we still splash monk with the addition of PRR, and again when that extra feat isn't required?

I think we'll still see Rogue splashes, since trapskills, sneak attack, and UMD are always useful. But other than that.... it's hard to say.
Let's hope the enhancement pass really addresses a lot of the issues brought up in this thread, and the many, many others out there.


30% racial Healing Amp.
30% Claw set
20% Tod ring (don't have this until I can recraft but tested with Leviks)
30% ranger Devotion

20 Spell Power pots.
60 Spell power tricket

Maximize feat.

I only use this for the "I'm gonna die" moments and use scrolls between mobs to stretch out the SP.

Yep, getting similar results on my Ranger, but I have 20% racial only (half-elf) + 30% (purple dragon commendation gloves) + 20% (DT leather, but ToD ring works too) + 20 or 30% ranger devotion. Picked up a thaumaturgy staff very cheaply with +90 devotion and superior healing lore on it. Not too difficult to do a quick swap out during downtime and get massive heals. For in-combat, you either deal with lesser self-heals and rely on your healer, or swap out and sacrifice a few seconds of dps. /shrug.

[slarden]

Dude . . . 800ish HP at like level 23 is not tough at all on a Tempest who takes FoTW which is possibly the best ED for Tempests anyway. Is that lower HP than a fighter or barb sure it is, but the fighter can't get mid 50s Reflex Saves (with twists) and 250-300 point quickened CSW.

If you're not building a ranger with self-healing in mind in the modern game you are building her wrong. That's it's Schtick. Buff smuffs, much of it can be gotten with gear or are covered by ship-buffs now. The self healing is what makes a ranger viable which is what a lot of people who play deep-splashes miss. Yes fighters can UMD scrolls and use SF pots but it's just not the same, I have a fighter who does that and it's just not the same as a 250+ point CSW.

You are trading DPS for self-healing when you roll a ranger. That's just how it is.

Should there be some changes? yes, and I'm hoping much of that will be covered in the ENH pass. I'd like to see more damage against non FEs and additional FEs choosable via enhancements. Against non FEs the rangers DPS does lag which is a problem if you don't visit Fred everytime we get some new content. I'd like to see some more defensive improvements as well. The 10 PRR from tempest III is nice but the Shield bonus should be higher considering how little each point of AC means now compared to what it uses to.

This is probably the most insightful comment in this thread. I have ony one toon with multiple lives. He has one life as a fighter , 3 as a ranger and a I spec'd him to be a fighter 12/ ranger 6/monk 2 for his final life as a helves angel.

What I found is that the dps gain was very minimal at best and the loss of self-healing and self-buffing was absolutely huge. I have been using my VIP points for +5 hearts to switch back to full ranger which is a 3-week process. I did some good testing with the helves angel build and will be able to do a really good comparison of ranger dps to helves angel dps.

[noinfo]

Dude . . . 800ish HP at like level 23 is not tough at all on a Tempest who takes FoTW which is possibly the best ED for Tempests anyway. Is that lower HP than a fighter or barb sure it is, but the fighter can't get mid 50s Reflex Saves (with twists) and 250-300 point quickened CSW.

If you're not building a ranger with self-healing in mind in the modern game you are building her wrong. That's it's Schtick. Buff smuffs, much of it can be gotten with gear or are covered by ship-buffs now. The self healing is what makes a ranger viable which is what a lot of people who play deep-splashes miss. Yes fighters can UMD scrolls and use SF pots but it's just not the same, I have a fighter who does that and it's just not the same as a 250+ point CSW.

You are trading DPS for self-healing when you roll a ranger. That's just how it is.


I have a barb who just sf pots for more that double that 250+ point CSW and so does my Fighter and it can't be interupted. If you think the self healing alone is worth it I gotta say its not even close. The reflex save combined with evasion is really the only reason I can see that helps this now dying class and that is it, stock up on heal amp make sure your stats are good and sink sf pots as needed on a monk, your reflex will probably be as high or higher and you get improved evasiion and your dps is much much better. As it stands if you are BUILDING a ranger in the modern game, you are doing it wrong and I can't tell you how much it hurts to actually conceded to that.

[Faent]

I have a barb who just sf pots for more that double that 250+ point CSW and so does my Fighter and it can't be interupted. If you think the self healing alone is worth it I gotta say its not even close. The reflex save combined with evasion is really the only reason I can see that helps this now dying class and that is it, stock up on heal amp make sure your stats are good and sink sf pots as needed on a monk, your reflex will probably be as high or higher and you get improved evasiion and your dps is much much better. As it stands if you are BUILDING a ranger in the modern game, you are doing it wrong and I can't tell you how much it hurts to actually conceded to that.

This is correct. I suppose it's possible the Enhancement Pass will reverse this, but I doubt it. I'll keep my ranger parked until then, I suppose.

[slarden]

I have a barb who just sf pots for more that double that 250+ point CSW and so does my Fighter and it can't be interupted. If you think the self healing alone is worth it I gotta say its not even close. The reflex save combined with evasion is really the only reason I can see that helps this now dying class and that is it, stock up on heal amp make sure your stats are good and sink sf pots as needed on a monk, your reflex will probably be as high or higher and you get improved evasiion and your dps is much much better. As it stands if you are BUILDING a ranger in the modern game, you are doing it wrong and I can't tell you how much it hurts to actually conceded to that.

I built a helves angel for that reason, but I am seeing some opportunities with the new epic destinies to exploit pure rangers with both the arcane archer and tempest prestige. My arcane archer build idea was definitely hurt by the nerfing of nightmare yesterday, but I am looking into a backup idea to exploit pure AA ranger 20 / epic 5.

I think the absolute statements that you should never play pure rangers, paladins, druids, etc. is a very narrow point of view. With the right spec, gear and epic destinies you can exploit any class in the game and almost every prestige. Some of the relative trade-offs/benefits are not directly measurable and very subjective. Whether you are averaging 212 per swing vs 206 per swing isn't going to be the deciding factor in most quests/raids. It's very hard to put a value on things like self-healing, having additional favored enemies, etc. which is why many people focus solely on dps which is an exact mathematical calculation and objective.

[fco-karatekid]

...In PnP, x-bows did not benefit from strength damage as the weapon was mechanical in nature. Whether you have 8 strength or 21 strength made little difference, so long as you can pick it up, aim it, and pull the trigger.
Unlike bows (composite bows in PnP, especially) which benefit from strength...

No this is not all I got out of your (very good) post - but I have a sneaky suspicion (based solely upon the number of composites I've seen dropping since U14) Turbine's gonna do something more with composite longbows here shortly.

And it's about time. I often wondered why there was no difference between longbows and composites... I'd love to see a touch more damage or range out of these (tho the latter I can't see - I can already hit anything that can come into focus onscreen).

[fco-karatekid]

...I myself think they should be the undisputed superior dps [against their] favored enemies...

This should be the case - I don't care about non-favored enemies, but compared side-by-side with base stats the same and same buffs, the Ranger should be doing superior dmg to his favored enemy, period. As it is now, a Ranger stays even with or behind the same horc who feels no more malice toward that enemy than toward another.

Using a BOW, however; I tend to see comparable damage when FE and proc effects are added into the mix [caveat: in heroic levels - haven't played much in FR with Epic characters enough to comment]. But again, for short bursts.

[Ape_Man]

I have a barb who just sf pots for more that double that 250+ point CSW and so does my Fighter and it can't be interupted.

My fighter has SF pots and can get no-fail heal-scrolls with a few items swaps but you cannot compare the two. That slowed movement from the SF effects has killed me about 1/3 of the time as it has saved me.

SF pots are awesome but . . .


[QUOTE=noinfo;4580833]
If you think the self healing alone is worth it I gotta say its not even close.

Quicken'd CSW is that good.



The reflex save combined with evasion is really the only reason I can see that helps this now dying class and that is it, stock up on heal amp make sure your stats are good and sink sf pots as needed on a monk, your reflex will probably be as high or higher and you get improved evasiion and your dps is much much better.

Get some EDs up and see the damage you can crank out as a FoTW or SD. If you shelved the toon you clearly don't know. EDs have given tempests a ton of additional DPS options.

And don't under-value the reflex save, you do no DPS when you're lying on your back from a comet fall. Run the new raid and you'll know what I'm talking about.



As it stands if you are BUILDING a ranger in the modern game, you are doing it wrong and I can't tell you how much it hurts to actually conceded to that.

See . . . I kinda agree with you as I wouldn't BUILD a new toon that's a ranger at this point but I'm not going to shelve the one I have either. This class absolutely needs some love in the ENH pass but it's not nearly as bad as some of the old forum grognards are presenting.

yes my fighter does more damage and I think might be overall more fun to play when I have somebody healing me in combat. The really high STR and tactics are just plain fun, I think I'm finding it to be more fun for me now with the ranger tanking a backseat.

But just because one toon is better 10-15% (it's might be 25% even)better at killing stuff doesn't mean the other one is garbage. When going into stuff I've never seen before the flexibility of the self-healing is better than that 10-15% more DPS.

[noinfo]

Quicken'd CSW is that good.



Get some EDs up and see the damage you can crank out as a FoTW or SD. If you shelved the toon you clearly don't know. EDs have given tempests a ton of additional DPS options.

And don't under-value the reflex save, you do no DPS when you're lying on your back from a comet fall. Run the new raid and you'll know what I'm talking about.



Actually its not that good, I have a total of (had) 4 end game rangers with various builds and that quickened CSW was only every used when I did not want my AC to drop below a certain threshold by using SF pots. Now i just dont bother, I am fully aware of what they were capable of they just dont really cut it for me + the fact that that is just 2 more feats gone for that. SF for over 550+ that just can't be interupted.

I don't undervalue that reflex save at all, and in my opinion it is really the last thing going for rangers, its just that if you are worried about reflex Monks just do it so much better all round and have better dps and survivablity now its just sad. Maybe the enhancement revamp will change this but I was also was optimistic about the lets talk Ac thread which developed into the new combat system and my divine is so **** happy about that since he has ac with little effort and my AC splashes got shelved.

I agree that in general the new EDs can bring life back into almost any build due to its versatility when it works, but as with anything you are only patching the issue. And as far as DPS goes, go level up your barb or a monk and compare it, you will just cringe when you come back and review your dps.

Its not the class that needs buffing here, its the PRE and enhancements. These are what make or break a DDO class and the ranger ones have long been broken, they have had buffs requested for the longest time but all they seem to get is proxy nerfs. During the xpac, they got proxy nerfed by the AC revision particulary with monk splash. Monk as a class got a significant boost through earth stance and levels, (other stances that used to offer some benefit are now second class citerzens) and rangers got: a very small boost to ddr, a non stacking ac boost tier 3 being 2 points better than a level 1 wand but does not block magic missile. The feats that are compulsory for Tempest got a minor boost so that you can get a total of 7% dodge from it, but then dodge is capped at 25% anyway regardless.

People who know what they are doing can salvage almost anything rangers included (and it sounds like you have) but there is no way I could ever bring myself to currently recommend one, its just that bad at the moment.

[slarden]

[QUOTE=Ape_Man;4582185]

Actually its not that good, I have a total of (had) 4 end game rangers with various builds and that quickened CSW was only every used when I did not want my AC to drop below a certain threshold by using SF pots. Now i just dont bother, I am fully aware of what they were capable of they just dont really cut it for me + the fact that that is just 2 more feats gone for that. SF for over 550+ that just can't be interupted.

I don't undervalue that reflex save at all, and in my opinion it is really the last thing going for rangers, its just that if you are worried about reflex Monks just do it so much better all round and have better dps and survivablity now its just sad. Maybe the enhancement revamp will change this but I was also was optimistic about the lets talk Ac thread which developed into the new combat system and my divine is so **** happy about that since he has ac with little effort and my AC splashes got shelved.

I agree that in general the new EDs can bring life back into almost any build due to its versatility when it works, but as with anything you are only patching the issue. And as far as DPS goes, go level up your barb or a monk and compare it, you will just cringe when you come back and review your dps.

Its not the class that needs buffing here, its the PRE and enhancements. These are what make or break a DDO class and the ranger ones have long been broken, they have had buffs requested for the longest time but all they seem to get is proxy nerfs. During the xpac, they got proxy nerfed by the AC revision particulary with monk splash. Monk as a class got a significant boost through earth stance and levels, (other stances that used to offer some benefit are now second class citerzens) and rangers got: a very small boost to ddr, a non stacking ac boost tier 3 being 2 points better than a level 1 wand but does not block magic missile. The feats that are compulsory for Tempest got a minor boost so that you can get a total of 7% dodge from it, but then dodge is capped at 25% anyway regardless.

People who know what they are doing can salvage almost anything rangers included (and it sounds like you have) but there is no way I could ever bring myself to currently recommend one, its just that bad at the moment.

I definitely understand your point of view, but it's easy to underestimate the intangibles of rangers. I have a 18 fighter/ 2 monk kensai III dual wielding khopesh dps well-geared toon that can really deal the damage. Although he does more damage than my ranger with a single swing, I am fairly certain my ranger does more damage than most if not all melees quite often. In many cases I even think it is a mistake for pure AA 20 rangers to swing swords between many shots because of all the benefits they are losing.

The key to exploiting an AA ranger is to boost the manyshot where you are already doing 400% damage for 20 seconds before boosts. Between many shots, a pure AA ranger has these benefits:
- capstone which people underestimate and incorrectly state is 15% rather than 25%. According to my tests it is somewhewre between 20 and 25% speed boost.
- for 75 out of the 100 second non-many shot period there is now a 25% damage bonus when standing still. It is rare that I am moving in a fight. For the other 25 seconds the damage boost is building up from 0 to 25% in 5 second increments
- +6 damage bonus for my 3 past ranger lives which is permanent and the equivalent of a +12 permanent strength boost
- slaying arrows
- favored enemy damage bonus which for a 20 ranger covers most difficult enemies in the game
- There is no need to move and chase enemies after defeating an enemy. You simply pivot and keep shooting. In general I see melees spending alot of time running around while my ranger is 100% engaged in dps.
- improved Precise shot is amazing if you know how to use it. I see many rangers and multi-class ranged toons fail to use it effectively. It is difficulty to quanity, but effective use of improved precise shot increases dps dramatically.
- when melees are dead their dps is decidedly low. My ranger dies very rarely even in extremely difficult quests where I see melees drop frequently. I scroll heal with toons, use SF pots and use spells. There is no question that ranger cure serious for 300 is much better than scroll healing and/or SF pots. With scroll healing there is a definite loss of dps due to the time to equip scrolls, use scrolls, re-equip weapons. SF pots have their own disadvantages. I find direct spells the simplest and least disruptive to dps.

It's easy to build a bad ranger. I definitely agree with that. But I would definitely recommend a ranger for a skilled player that is able to get good gear and exploit the benefits of the class enough to be effective. I've seen people build and play rangers poorly and then complain about what a bad class it is.

[noinfo]

I definitely understand your point of view, but it's easy to underestimate the intangibles of rangers. I have a 18 fighter/ 2 monk kensai III dual wielding khopesh dps well-geared toon that can really deal the damage. Although he does more damage than my ranger with a single swing, I am fairly certain my ranger does more damage than most if not all melees quite often. In many cases I even think it is a mistake for pure AA 20 rangers to swing swords between many shots because of all the benefits they are losing.

The key to exploiting an AA ranger is to boost the manyshot where you are already doing 400% damage for 20 seconds before boosts. Between many shots, a pure AA ranger has these benefits:
- capstone which people underestimate and incorrectly state is 15% rather than 25%. According to my tests it is somewhewre between 20 and 25% speed boost.
- for 75 out of the 100 second non-many shot period there is now a 25% damage bonus when standing still. It is rare that I am moving in a fight. For the other 25 seconds the damage boost is building up from 0 to 25% in 5 second increments
- +6 damage bonus for my 3 past ranger lives which is permanent and the equivalent of a +12 permanent strength boost
- slaying arrows
- favored enemy damage bonus which for a 20 ranger covers most difficult enemies in the game
- There is no need to move and chase enemies after defeating an enemy. You simply pivot and keep shooting. In general I see melees spending alot of time running around while my ranger is 100% engaged in dps.
- improved Precise shot is amazing if you know how to use it. I see many rangers and multi-class ranged toons fail to use it effectively. It is difficulty to quanity, but effective use of improved precise shot increases dps dramatically.
- when melees are dead their dps is decidedly low. My ranger dies very rarely even in extremely difficult quests where I see melees drop frequently. I scroll heal with toons, use SF pots and use spells. There is no question that ranger cure serious for 300 is much better than scroll healing and/or SF pots. With scroll healing there is a definite loss of dps due to the time to equip scrolls, use scrolls, re-equip weapons. SF pots have their own disadvantages. I find direct spells the simplest and least disruptive to dps.

It's easy to build a bad ranger. I definitely agree with that. But I would definitely recommend a ranger for a skilled player that is able to get good gear and exploit the benefits of the class enough to be effective. I've seen people build and play rangers poorly and then complain about what a bad class it is.

Given the number of people who confirm the 15% overall I would go with that since I believe that it was determined that the 25% was actually being applied to ROF but the animation slowed it down so that effect was 15%.
Since primary damage occurs with manyshot, having at least 12 level fighter kensai elf would give you haste boost for far more damage, and nothing stopping them from having 3 ranger past lives either. Maybe even with monk 6 for 10k stars and shadow fade and extra feats.

As for self healing saying that your 300hp csw that has chewed up at least 1 and more likely 2 feats in a feat starved class AND is extremely limited by spell points + the need to slot a devotion item is better than 550+ SF pot that can't be interupted and the - 5 to hit and damage etc makes little impact on the type of melee toon using them, there is no comparisson and its not in the rangers favour.

[slarden]

Given the number of people who confirm the 15% overall I would go with that since I believe that it was determined that the 25% was actually being applied to ROF but the animation slowed it down so that effect was 15%.
Since primary damage occurs with manyshot, having at least 12 level fighter kensai elf would give you haste boost for far more damage, and nothing stopping them from having 3 ranger past lives either. Maybe even with monk 6 for 10k stars and shadow fade and extra feats.

As for self healing saying that your 300hp csw that has chewed up at least 1 and more likely 2 feats in a feat starved class AND is extremely limited by spell points + the need to slot a devotion item is better than 550+ SF pot that can't be interupted and the - 5 to hit and damage etc makes little impact on the type of melee toon using them, there is no comparisson and its not in the rangers favour.

In short, no I don't agree with you.

Based on the way you present your arguments there is definitely no benefit to getting into a point-counterpoint discussion with you. You will simply ignore/discount everything that doesn't fit your view point. I will continue to prove my characters effectiveness to people I quest with on epic elite. There is no reason or need to prove it to a random person on the forum.

You are welcome to your opinions.

[HatsuharuZ]

I find it depressing whenever someone brings up the silver flame potions. Why drink a healing potion that makes you easier to kill? It's a long to grind to even get it, too.

[Faent]

I find it depressing whenever someone brings up the silver flame potions. Why drink a healing potion that makes you easier to kill? It's a long to grind to even get it, too.

It is not really a long grind to get it. And the Lesser Potions have no movement penalty. Properly used, SF pots make you infinitely more survivable, not easier to kill. You always have your CSW if the time for quaffing a SF potion isn't right. And since you have CSW, you can moderate the use of them much more easily than a FTR or BRB. They are an incredible useful current part of the game, and every toon that can make use of them should keep some around.

[noinfo]

I find it depressing whenever someone brings up the silver flame potions. Why drink a healing potion that makes you easier to kill? It's a long to grind to even get it, too.

If you find yourself easy to kill because you drank one you might want too look at the state of your toon. Feel depressed all you like, my barb drinks these at will and unless I am careless needs no babysitting.

[HatsuharuZ]

If you find yourself easy to kill because you drank one you might want too look at the state of your toon. Feel depressed all you like, my barb drinks these at will and unless I am careless needs no babysitting.

-10 to all abilities. That's the most significant side-effect there. Better to take up a feat slot for Empower Healing or Maximize on a ranger. At least metamagic feats aren't poisonous :P

[noinfo]

-10 to all abilities. That's the most significant side-effect there. Better to take up a feat slot for Empower Healing or Maximize on a ranger. At least metamagic feats aren't poisonous :P

That -10 to ablities for 30 seconds for the most part means nothing. Penaties to saves due to it can at the wrong time be a little dangerous but no more so than the empower healing/maximise on your ranger without quicken (making it now 2 feats) and worse healing for about 1/2 what the pot can do.

[HatsuharuZ]

That -10 to ablities for 30 seconds for the most part means nothing. Penaties to saves due to it can at the wrong time be a little dangerous but no more so than the empower healing/maximise on your ranger without quicken (making it now 2 feats) and worse healing for about 1/2 what the pot can do.

But I can cast a healing spell more than once during that same 30 second period and not debuff myself.

[noinfo]

In short, no I don't agree with you.

Based on the way you present your arguments there is definitely no benefit to getting into a point-counterpoint discussion with you. You will simply ignore/discount everything that doesn't fit your view point. I will continue to prove my characters effectiveness to people I quest with on epic elite. There is no reason or need to prove it to a random person on the forum.

You are welcome to your opinions.

I think you might actually have our positions reversed here. In any case I would never reject a ranger from a group and I would certainly not judge or question your ability to play your toon effectively, what I will call out is pretty much any claim that current rangers are not in dire need of attention and any unsubstantiated claim to the contrary. The issue that is being addressed is that rangers need a significant amount of attention, there certainly was a time when they were at the top of the melee food chain but that is so long ago that most current players were not around for it.

People who play rangers will continue to play them because they enjoy that style and variety of abilities available to them. But to actually try and prove that they are as a whole inferiour and in desparate need of attention is just burrying your head int he sand. I am betting that there are people who have geared those toons to the hilt and now with ED gone and put together some really really good concepts and have shored up alot of the weak points of the class itself BUT those same things can be done to make the other already strong classes stronger still.

At the endof the day its not finger pointing at anyone saying "ah you are gimped because you rolled a ranger" (Though I am betting currently rangers would be getting this alot since the number I see at end game have continued to drop more and more) its about saying to the Devs hey here is a class that has been on the receiving end of proxy nerfs for years we need something to bring it up on par with the other classes. The way to do it is straight forward, its the enhancement system that makes or breaks a class in ddo and they just continue to palm the rangers enhancement off to a future date. It was ok to buff the damage boost that barbs and fighters get, its ok to buff monk stances every update, even pally tanks (and fighter tanks) got a massive boost a few updates ago. Rangers we got spiked growth!!!

Making them viable while waiting for the enhancement pass could have been as simple as"

Haste boost
Toughness enhancements in line with druid and fs
( and possibly 1 or 2 ranks healing amp or stronger enhancements to boost their self healing)

And for tempest (the pre I am most familiar with)

Give them a couple of attack stances
In addition to the shield bonus giving them something along the lines of monk eath stance regarding defense while 2WF (not the crit bonus)
and another that mimics Air stance for attack speed and double strike

Give the PRE or class itself bonuses to dodge not just the prereq reats
These could scale with tiers of the PRE in the form 2 + 2 + 3

And that is a class with a PRE I would be happy to play. Still not the best at anyone thing but strong enough to stand its ground.

DPS still not as good as a kensai or barb but at least with haste boost they are not completely hosed
Defense wise they are not in the same league as the defenders or monks but again now not being completely hosed
They are still behind other melee on HP but should not be chasing FS or Druids in this area as they are now.

[noinfo]

But I can cast a healing spell more than once during that same 30 second period and not debuff myself.

You do realise that you can keep drinking the pots over and over again in that time and it only resets the timer not stack the debuffs? A barbarian standing in the middle of a fight can quite easily drink these things one after the other as needed (uninteruppted) and continue to spam cleaves with -5 to hit and damage still putting them miles ahead of a rangers dps during that time? And if your a bit worried then just hit uncanny dodge as well.

I have used spell healing on my ranger and sf pots as well on him and really the only reason to use spell point heals was it was cheaper and didn't drop my ac below a particular threshold (now is not really a concern)

[HatsuharuZ]

You do realise that you can keep drinking the pots over and over again in that time and it only resets the timer not stack the debuffs? A barbarian standing in the middle of a fight can quite easily drink these things one after the other as needed (uninteruppted) and continue to spam cleaves with -5 to hit and damage still putting them miles ahead of a rangers dps during that time? And if your a bit worried then just hit uncanny dodge as well.

I have used spell healing on my ranger and sf pots as well on him and really the only reason to use spell point heals was it was cheaper and didn't drop my ac below a particular threshold (now is not really a concern)

Well, unlike a barbarian a ranger can cast healing spells on his/herself.... which are amongst some of the few good spells the ranger has, now that I think about it.

Not much use for the stealth skills and/or buffs, sadly.

[noinfo]

Well, unlike a barbarian a ranger can cast healing spells on his/herself.... which are amongst some of the few good spells the ranger has, now that I think about it.

Not much use for the stealth skills and/or buffs, sadly.

And that is part of the reason why Rangers could use a buff overall. I find the ability to use SF pots on my barb fantastic but I don't think I should be able to out heal rangers or pallies on them with the difference in dps on them and combat ablities already.

Giving them a degree of healing amp and maybe a line of enhancements that increases healing spell power when used on themselves (or just give them a spell that is self only with a very fast cast time and greater healing effect and maybe a HOT effect)

There is just so much that could be done to help bring them back inline with other classes.

[HatsuharuZ]

And that is part of the reason why Rangers could use a buff overall. I find the ability to use SF pots on my barb fantastic but I don't think I should be able to out heal rangers or pallies on them with the difference in dps on them and combat ablities already.

Giving them a degree of healing amp and maybe a line of enhancements that increases healing spell power when used on themselves (or just give them a spell that is self only with a very fast cast time and greater healing effect and maybe a HOT effect)

There is just so much that could be done to help bring them back inline with other classes.

Yes, like a new PrE... Ranger Assassin, maybe (lol)? Or maybe a finished Deepwood Sniper prestige enhancement line.

Other changes that could be made:

-Turn the ranger feat "Hide in Plain Sight" into a diplomacy effect that uses hide for the DC and makes the user go into stealth mode.

-Increase the damage/AC/saves/attack bonus recieved from certain ranger enhancements.

-Add ranged attack/damage enhancements, and twf attack/damage enhancements.

-Remove the "Diehard" feat that rangers get at third level and replace it with "Toughness".

-Give rangers some weapon enhancement spells, or allow them to summon ammunition. (I realize that Arcane Archer has these, but it's still good to have).

-Add Haste Boost

-Give rangers a class capstone that helps Tempest builds.

[goodspeed]

rangers nice for splashes. Kind of like rogues. Get the size bonus from rams and a lil extra stuff.

Ranged wise seems to be more a chance. ranger and arti fall hand in hand except where the arti has to be at least 18 if your using the rune arm repeater combo for the bursts, the ranger can flip flop and splash this and that. I think it will be even more so later on.

Also more maneuverability. Shoot on the run where the arti is planted. Blasting the arm shots. Now the trade off is, the arti basically has a slayer arrow proc every 6 seconds with enhancement boosts to the arm. The rangers gotta rely of pure chance of dice. But when you can duplicate the repeater with a splash then the chance of that roll increases.

Now of course you cannot compare any ranged to one of those drop everything for dmg barbs in a death/blood/freanzy frenzy mixed with whatever else is pricing. and crittn like no tomorrow with a sword of shadow. But theirs a trade off to that to. The healer gets stuck pumping the hp thats being ripped away. Expecially now with all that dmg coming from any kind of spell it seems.

Meanwhile the ranger of their has the reflex saves and the feat to avoid dmg as well as not be anywhere neat the swinging radius of that thing. So it's like a worry free class.

But you still can never EVER compare to a savent whippn those dots and single taregt rays and ice storms and all that. But that's ok cause that's what they're their for. Also a lil higher death factor but its the trade off along with the mana pool. But the bolts and arrows that boss could take a cool 30 minutes or more to kill and u'd still be firing volly after volley.

So while some things could be changed (not really companions cause arti dogs suck enough do we really need more?) but everything seems to have it's place. I don't think I would ever make the mistake of going pure ranger again unless pre's were added as well as changed and were sheerly awesome, but with a splash here and their I like em.

[HatsuharuZ]

rangers nice for splashes. Kind of like rogues. Get the size bonus from rams and a lil extra stuff.

Ranged wise seems to be more a chance. ranger and arti fall hand in hand except where the arti has to be at least 18 if your using the rune arm repeater combo for the bursts, the ranger can flip flop and splash this and that. I think it will be even more so later on.

Also more maneuverability. Shoot on the run where the arti is planted. Blasting the arm shots. Now the trade off is, the arti basically has a slayer arrow proc every 6 seconds with enhancement boosts to the arm. The rangers gotta rely of pure chance of dice. But when you can duplicate the repeater with a splash then the chance of that roll increases.

Now of course you cannot compare any ranged to one of those drop everything for dmg barbs in a death/blood/freanzy frenzy mixed with whatever else is pricing. and crittn like no tomorrow with a sword of shadow. But theirs a trade off to that to. The healer gets stuck pumping the hp thats being ripped away. Expecially now with all that dmg coming from any kind of spell it seems.

Meanwhile the ranger of their has the reflex saves and the feat to avoid dmg as well as not be anywhere neat the swinging radius of that thing. So it's like a worry free class.

But you still can never EVER compare to a savent whippn those dots and single taregt rays and ice storms and all that. But that's ok cause that's what they're their for. Also a lil higher death factor but its the trade off along with the mana pool. But the bolts and arrows that boss could take a cool 30 minutes or more to kill and u'd still be firing volly after volley.

So while some things could be changed (not really companions cause arti dogs suck enough do we really need more?) but everything seems to have it's place. I don't think I would ever make the mistake of going pure ranger again unless pre's were added as well as changed and were sheerly awesome, but with a splash here and their I like em.

Ummm.... what?

[Aerendil]

How much money do you guys wager it would take to encourage LARP to dress up as Rangers and "play dead" outside of Turbine's HQ one morning as they're turning up for work, with signs posted on the lawn reading "Save the Rangers!", "Rangers are a dying breed!", and "Who's going to save the chipmunks?!".

Anyone want to help pitch in?

[HatsuharuZ]

How much money do you guys wager it would take to encourage LARP to dress up as Rangers and "play dead" outside of Turbine's HQ one morning as they're turning up for work, with signs posted on the lawn reading "Save the Rangers!", "Rangers are a dying breed!", and "Who's going to save the chipmunks?!".

Anyone want to help pitch in?

I could help with the fake blood! lol

[compadre]

yeah rangers do need more love especially tempest. a barb can dps melee better cuz of high hp and natural damage reduction and both dont use full plate why cant rangers do the same?? why do they have to take the role of a wanna be rogue that cant search why??? why can't rangers cant shoot bows fast or become the fastest in comparison to other classes>??? and yet there name is what they are supposed to be.... raaanngeeerss .oh forgot why cant they have spells that improve bow or melee weapon while paladins LOL with their holy swords :(.

[Vormaerin]

and yet there name is what they are supposed to be.... raaanngeeerss

Ugh, this nonsensical comment always annoys me. "Ranger" has NOTHING to do with "ranged." It never did and it never will. Ranger has to do with "ranging" over the landscape... as in scouting. The Ranger class existed in D&D for over a decade before it had any association with bows at all (or dual wielding, for that matter). The term "Ranger" has a been a feature of American military terminology since before the American Revolution. Its been a staple of fantasy since LotR in the 1940s (notice that none of the Rangers of the North use bows to any significant degree in the books?).


While I am not going to argue that many of Turbine's more monty haul gearing decisions (shipcheats and SF Pots in particular) hasn't severely undercut the advantages of the ranger class, I do think many folks don't play one very well.

As designed in DDO, they are intended to do a variety of things. Anyone who is building a ranger to do one thing is going to end up frustrated. Even a tempest ought to be using Multishot/IPS regularly. An AA should be taking advantage of the dual wielding options.

As for a pet, they would be nearly useless in DDO. The arti and druid pets handle late game poorly as it is. A ranger's companion is supposed to be significantly less powerful than a druid's.

[licho]

/Signed
For Ranger buff.
/Not signed
For pets.

[Ape_Man]

Hell no to ranger pets. I don't want something useless thrown in the game and have that be considered a buff. All the other pets in this game are garbage so there's no point in adding to that pile of trash.

[Karavek]

That's the problem right there. A class should be able to stand on it's own! Multiclassing should be optional, not mandatory.

Actually you are very mistaken. When it comes to 3rd ed and the D20 system as a whole it was designed with the intent and expectation for players to multiclass PCs. Numerous dragons after 3E came out had articles from guys like Skip,Monte, and even old mary sue lovers like Ed Greenwood explain that the main idea and reason behind the new system was to create a more organic character development.

This is about the quickest example I could find printed and give a summary of. Imagine a fighter,wizard, and ranger are all traveling together. After a few adventures they earn enough xp to lvl. Due to much of the adventure taking place in the forest, the fighter decides to take his next lvl in ranger to adapt to and work better with his woodwise ally. Meanwhile the wizard feeling abit soft decides to grab a lvl of fighter to make use of a few weapons when spells run low. Finally the ranger deciding he would like to have a better understanding of the magical foe they are hunting, he takes a lvl of wizard so as to better fight his quarry.

This was the actual intent of the changes to dual and multi classing that occurred between 2nd Ed. and 3E+/D20. While PRC actually where stated as being added only to be used for flavor and creating more campaign specific characters( hence DM approval was required) Multiclassing characters in general was something built right into the core of the game system.

The issue with and problem created by classes lacking any useful abilities to make them less front loaded was only really solved by monte cook in his book Arcana Evolved with he produced after he left WOTC in disgust. Considering Monte was one of the last of the Old Schoolers and his leaving meant not one more useful D20 book would be produced by WOTC( I and most at the hobby shops only bought small time publisher D20 after that.)

You see in AE it was built as if each class was its own stand alone class and built in prestige class, where around lvl 10 the classes recieved major boosts, at by 20-25( no epic lvl BS and splat books needed with AE a single stand alone game book) anywyas by 20-25 the classes receive significant and interesting powers. Its these amazing end class powers that are the price one pays for multi classing for front loaded and often diverse abilities. Cap Stones are actually the opposite of this in act and spirit in DDO. Instead of giving a viable reason to do either you typically have must have capt stones, or worthless ones. a Single ability is always going to end up that way.

So what I propose is a set of epic cap stones divided from 20-25 one each epic lvl, I think these could also be the free power boosts some have been asking for for epic lvls to make them feel more then a waste without EDs.

However to counter this and keep balance they may need to re look at and improve a number of classes lower lvl abilities across the board to make any form of multi classing equally viable be it a 10/10 caster split or an 18/2 wiz rogue. This is essential as another thing done by Cook in AE was make all caster lvls stack for total caster lvl. Meaning if your a 10/10 wiz cleric for example although u may only have 5th lvl spells in each they would cast as from a lvl 20 caster for duration and effect as well as beating SR. This was an equally essential balance Monte saw as a must have to bring balance and free players from the shackles of the META game WOTC had spawned under the flag of D&D.

As you can see I feel rather strongly about rangers, multi classing, and D&D in general.

[Karavek]

yeah rangers do need more love especially tempest. a barb can dps melee better cuz of high hp and natural damage reduction and both dont use full plate why cant rangers do the same?? why do they have to take the role of a wanna be rogue that cant search why??? why can't rangers cant shoot bows fast or become the fastest in comparison to other classes>??? and yet there name is what they are supposed to be.... raaanngeeerss .oh forgot why cant they have spells that improve bow or melee weapon while paladins LOL with their holy swords :(.

Not to heckle but is this seriously how you want to start your DDO forum posting saga is by making the silly statement that ranger implies being a ranged weapons user. I mean REALLY!!!!

Look bud from the modern Rangers of special forces, to national rangers for parks and wildlife, to Strider one of them rangers, dangerous folk they be the word ranger has NOTHING TO DO WITH RANGED WEAPONS SKILL SETS. The reason rangers carry bows and blades is to be adaptable and prepared for any battle. THATS IT!

Id bother with what the word ranger is actually implying but saw another poster covered that part quite well.

[Taters214]

[QUOTE=noinfo;4582405]

- There is no need to move and chase enemies after defeating an enemy. You simply pivot and keep shooting. In general I see melees spending alot of time running around while my ranger is 100% engaged in dps.


This. Not only is this one of the reasons I love playing an AA (not having to chase down enemies), but the dps gain here is substantial, not because each arrow does that much damage (when not multi-shoting), but that arrows are always damaging someone. That barb hit hard for 2 seconds, the enemy died, and then he ran for 3 seconds to get to the next enemy, no, wait, the fighter killed him first. He turns for the next enemy, smacks him down in 2 seconds, then runs to the next enemy, which dies by arrow from afar first.

If we are talking boss beat down, sure AA losing out on dps, because a boss usually just stands there and takes it. But if it's mobs that are running all about, then the AA gains a lot of lost ground. And you know those annoying casters and (sigh) archers who love to kite things around? The AA has an answer for that, too: pewpewpew. :)